Who Should Partake of the Memorial Emblems?

//Who Should Partake of the Memorial Emblems?

I am not claiming that all partakers are chosen to go to heaven. But not partaking isn’t scriptural, for a couple reasons. 1 Timothy 4:1-5. But if all food can be consumed, so can the emblems. And this scripture may be referring to the WT, as they are the only group of people who believe the Bible(falling away from the truth) that prevent others from eating food as a thanksgiving(emblems) and they also prevent marriage to those who are not JWs. I know I am not married at this moment because I was scared into believing that I would sin if I married out side the truth. It can’t be referring to Christendom either, as they never had the truth to fall away from nor do they restrain their members from eating any type of food or marrying. And we both know 1914 isn’t a teaching from Jehovah, so it can only come from another source. Perimeno sheds more light on the matter. He is also does not believe that the emblems are only for the anointed, but also for the other sheepRutherford is the source of the anointed being the sole partakers, we would both agree anything that man said should not be taken seriously.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 states: “However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”

First, the Lord’s Evening Meal is not really a meal in the sense that we understand the word “meal.” The bread and wine are not to be consumed the same as physical food and drink. In fact, Paul reproved the Corinthians who lacked appreciation for the sacredness of the occasion. Apparently, some of the Corinthians used the memorial as an ordinary meal, which is why Paul wrote: “When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the congregation of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Should I commend you? In this I do not commend you.”

Paul’s inspired word regarding people falling away from the faith and giving heed to demonic expressions forbidding the consumption of certain foods and forbidding marriage could not possibly apply to the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

For one thing, it is evident that Paul is not speaking of the emblems of bread and wine because he refers to “foods,” plural —as in various kinds of food. This finds a fulfillment in the ancient Catholic/Orthodox traditions such as meatless Fridays and the fasting and dietary restrictions associated with Lent. For example, here is a link to an Orthodox website outlining the various practices.

As regards the practice of “forbidding marriage,” that too finds a remarkable fulfillment in the Catholic/Orthodox tradition of priestly celibacy. (While Orthodoxy does not impose celibacy on their priests the bishops are celibate.)

The apostolic injunction to “marry only in the Lord” is not forbidding marriage. It is forbidding marriage to an unbeliever. And that is the basis for the Watchtower to exhort Jehovah’s Witnesses to only marry Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Technically one could make the case that only anointed persons are “in the Lord,” that is to say in union with Christ.)

As for 1914 being a doctrine of demons, that much is true. However, it is not something associated with those who have fallen away from the faith. On the contrary, the “deluding influence” that God allows as “an operation of Satan” is directed against those who know the truth in order to test their love of the truth. As Paul indicated, the false announcements heralding the presence has begun and the day of Jehovah is here not only precede the actual manifestation of Christ, but are intended to deceive the brothers. That is why Paul counseled his brothers not to be quickly shaken from their reason or unduly alarmed by such proclamations. Clearly, Paul did not think that his brothers who would be subjected to the operation of error had fallen away from the faith.

In view of the fact that the Devil had already entered into Judas as he reclined at the Passover table with the other apostles when Jesus instituted the observance of his death by breaking the bread and saying “this means my body,” should we not expect the demons to take a special interest in the Evening Meal now?

Pope holds up Eucharist Indeed, since the sacredness of the Evening Meal has long been desecrated by the demons with their abominable Catholic mass, where the practice of feeding a wafer to the throngs of the ignorant and untaught is a daily ritual, the faint whisper of the original serpent is also detectable among Jehovah’s Witnesses: ‘Is it really so that Jehovah has said you must not eat or drink the emblems’? 

Certain persons who pass themselves off as Bible experts would have you believe that the Watchtower is practicing a dark, satanic ritual by excluding everyone but the called ones from partaking of the emblems representing Jesus’ flesh and blood. But the fact is, the Evening Meal is a solemn ritual intended to be partaken of exclusively by those who are anointed. The supper signifies a communion with Christ and participation in the covenant between God and those who have been called into his Kingdom.

While the apostles were eating the passover lamb “Jesus took a loaf, and after saying a blessing, he broke it, and giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. But I say to you: I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.’”

In his saying the cup represented “my blood of the covenant” Jesus was referring to the so-called new covenant. Those in the new covenant are to be with Christ in heaven and will rule with him as kings and priests. That is what Jesus indicated in the 3rd chapter of Revelation, where he said to the seven congregations: “Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take the evening meal with him and he with me. To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

Just as on the occasion when Jesus passed the cup of the “blood of the covenant,” he also said that his Father had made a covenant with him for a kingdom and he was making one with them, so that they might rule in his kingdom, in the passage above Jesus connects the sharers of the  evening meal with those who will sit down on his throne with him.

But what did Jesus mean when he said: “I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”

The “blood of the covenant” represented by the red wine is intended to make it possible for God to declare sinless those who are party to the covenant, thereby opening the way for them to enter into the marriage of the Lamb. Their being declared sinless is more than just being forgiven. They are considered perfect. So, that is why Jesus said he would not drink wine again until he drinks it with them in the Kingdom. Here is what is stated in the 19th chapter of Revelation: “Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.””

Notice, please, that the marriage of the Lamb is an exclusive, invitation only affair and those participating in the event are said to be “invited to the evening meal.” So, that is when Jesus will drink the wine of exaltation with them then, when Jehovah’s purpose to create a Kingdom of Christ and 144,000 is complete and goes into operation. That will indeed be a time of great joy.

As for Rutherford, he was right on a lot of things. He discerned that those whom he identified as the great crowd are a different group than the wife of the Lamb. Those who are said to come out of the great tribulation wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, meaning they have forgiveness, but they are not direct parties to the new covenant and therefore should not drink from the cup of the “blood of the covenant.”

And to be sure, the new covenant and the ransom are not the same thing. All mankind will benefit from the ransom. But the new covenant is between God and a group whom Jesus addressed as a “little flock.” How do we know? Because Jesus said: “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.” Again, the little flock are the ones called into the Kingdom who share the Evening Meal with Christ.  

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2017-03-23T17:50:28+00:00 March 23rd, 2017|Mailbag|314 Comments
  • Francis Bencharles

    This is a very touchy topic and I want to say up front that it is not my intention to upset anyone regarding what they believe as to the Passover or Memorial Celebration. Some think that “everyone” should partake of the emblems at the Memorial Celebration and others insist that this arrangement is just for the members of the Bride of Christ.
    In actuality, both are correct but for several reasons. If you examine the different accounts of the Gospel’s you will see that they say very different things that are only noticed if you look closely. The Memorial is not just a celebration of the members of the Bride of Christ but is a celebration for all who are members of a salvation covenant in Christ.
    It is true that on the night of the Passover celebration that Jesus made a special new covenant with the disciples to be a part of his wife, his Bride. That is an inescapable fact, but that fact does not erase the other covenants that were also celebrated on that night. Those who firmly feel that only the members of the Bride of Christ, the anointed, should be partakers of the emblems of the new covenant, they are absolutely correct. But again, that is not the only “covenant” that was celebrated on that night.
    First off, in the accounts of Matthew and Mark an interesting statement is made that gives us some understanding of this night and what happened, and what we are supposed to take away from it. You will notice that in both the accounts it says “as they continued eating” (the Passover meal of lamb and bitter greens etc.). So, the memorial is a meal that is eaten and the emblems which become a part of the “celebration” are different because they are associated with salvation covenants. The meal is part of the Passover celebration, but the eating of the bread and the wine are separate and represent the DIFFERENT covenants that people are part of.
    In both Matthew and Mark, Jesus presented the bread and the wine as emblems of salvation covenants “while they were eating”, and these covenants Jesus says are for the “many”. Clearly, these emblems which are properly eaten “during the meal” are covenants for Abraham’s children of faith which are indeed the many. One represents the first Abrahamic covenant of those with simple faith in God like Abraham was when he made the covenant with God. This is the “uncircumcised faith”. The other body and blood of the Christ mentioned in Matthew and Mark is also for the “many”, which are the children in the faith of Isaac, which represents the second Abrahamic covenant that God made with Abraham and sealed it with the circumcision. Paul speaks of both of these. One is faith without circumcision (baptism in the Christian era) and one with circumcision (baptism in a true Christian Faith or circumcision as a Jew before the sacrifice of the Messiah which made the law covenant of no avail).
    Luke 22 which is another account of that same memorial celebration defines another salvation covenant that is for a different group. Notice precisely when this covenant was partaken in Luke’s account. It says in verse 20 that Jesus presented these emblems “after they had the evening meal”. This clearly defines that this is a different bread and wine from Matthew and Mark’s accounts which were taken “while they were eating” and were for “the many”.
    If we examine Luke 22 further, we see that Jesus gives further qualifying information. He says “this cup means my body which is to be given ‘in your behalf’, not in behalf of the “many” like Matthew and Mark. An the cup also was “in your behalf”, not in behalf of the “many”.
    So. Although it goes much deeper than this Matthew and Mark were for the many of the Abrahamic covenants and Luke is clearly describing a different covenant which was for “you” or more clearly the disciples that were at the celebration which represent the entire body of Christ’s Bride just as the covenants in Mark and Matthew represent the “bodies” of the first and second Abrahamic covenants.
    When Jesus used the bread as a “body” it represents the body of the covenant Father that it is given for. And the blood represents the blood that is given for those covenants for the salvation of those with faith in God and those with faith in God that were either circumcised as a jew before the sacrifice of Jesus or baptized into a true Christian Church. These emblems are to be taken by the members of these two groups. While the body in Luke is different. It is the body of the ones in the New Covenant with Christ that are to be his Bride. Only true members of that body are to take of these emblems of bread and wine. This bread represent the body that was given for the members of the “little flock” of the Bride of Christ, not the ”many” of the Abrahamic covenant’s.
    In Paul, which is a very deep account, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they must first define what “body” or covenant that they are in and not just eat the emblems indiscriminately just because they are hungry and came to the Passover hungry. You should only eat the bread or “body” of the covenant that you are in and drink only the wine of the covenant that you are in, which “body” you are a part of. The bread represents the body of the covenant Father and the wine represents the blood that circulates through that body. You are only entitled to eat the body you are a part of and drink the blood that circulates (figuratively) through that body.
    Paul said in warning to first Century Christians in verse 29 “For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body (that they are a part of) eats and drinks judgment against himself. “If you are not a part of the “body” of the New Covenant you should not eat and drink of those emblems indiscriminately or you will be judged by God.
    This issue goes even deeper, but this is enough for now.

    • Jehovah’s anointed
      Francis < Robert

      ima go with Robert

      • Francis Bencharles

        Hi D.A.:

        I have never claimed to be a part of the New Covenant as a member of Christ’s Bride.

    • Burt Reynolds

      This is pure psychobabble. It comes complete with the haughty overtone of reserved knowledge and that we have read enough for now and must wait on the further revelations at the convenience of the writer – added to which is the wish that any offence is unintended! I’m just sick to read it. If there were any element of truth to it, it would and could be easily explained, but the only thing it lacks is a reference to ‘only when the moon is full’. Even you are breathless and leave the full story for another time. Francis, Truth rings like a clear bell, and like the voice, is readily recognisable and nothing is hidden, nothing held back for a later time. It clearly reveals purpose, without room for doubt, and lends assurance, along with certainty. Compare what you have written, how convoluted, twisted and obscure, obfuscate and irrational it is, compared with the straightforward discussion given in the article. I feel that even Jehovah would be confused should you actually attempt to reveal the deeper discussion that we are to wait for. And I am equally sure Jesus would have given his disciples a verbal footnote that they should define what group others, whom they may contact, need to join.

      • Francis Bencharles

        Hi Burt:

        I just have one question. Did you even take out your Bible and look at the scriptures that I mentioned to see if it was true? Or did you instantly know without looking that it was “psycho-babel”? My guess is you did not. If that is true then my comment was not to you but is for the person that does not already know it all that is willing to look at it with a discerning eye to see if there is any truth there. This is not an attack on Robert King. I think very highly of him and can see a man of great faith, but just have a different opinion on this subject.

        If I am full of it you will know that for sure when Jesus does come, and he will, very soon. As I have no fight with Robert King, I have no fight with you either. I am presenting my take on this subject and if you care to throw names at me, that’s AOK with me.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Likewise is mock humility, passive sarcasm in forgiveness and in invoking Jehovah to the bench to judge. It is not the subject that is touchy, but the deliberate action of opposition to the truth, hidden under the cloak of an inquiry for others to judge the validity of such and in claiming a reserved insight. You do not need a bible to determine truth. Truth speaks for itself. Where did Moses get his inspiration from, or Paul? They got it straight from the mouth of Jesus and Jehovah. The prophesy was hidden in scrolls, but the dictat of obedience was written plainly, such as hygiene, disease, blood, fornication, homosexuality, food, the planets, the universe, the creation, love, justice, clarity in speach, to be forthright in teaching, to give unity, not discent. Where was Jesus when he gave his command on the memorial, what were they doing, what was the context? Yours is not an arguement, it is a discent disguised as a plausible (to the unsteady) alternative. It neither unites, or informs, but confuses and divides. It does not teach, but obscures truth in a knot, as if truth was difficult to find or to understand.

          Yes, your suggestion is psychobabble, and that is not calling you a name, but what on this occasion at least, that which came out of you. And if not, then let us have the rest of your conclusive arguement as promised. You ask if I have read my bible. In answer, not enough as always, yet what I have read, is plain and I can recite it plainly; and that which I have not read, I search for the meaning of when required or reminded to do so when it is quoted in reference. I do not have the skill to read with insight and gain an understanding of some things biblical without help. Yet I know truth when I read it or hear it, or am told it, or shown it. When the time comes to make my choice of faith, I will not be asking death to hang on for a minute while I check my bible because long before that, as the bible quite clearly points out, those that claim to be the Christ will long before have spread confusion, such as those do now in the watchtower. Of what good is the bible if it’s teachers confuse the word of it beyond human understanding? That is the operation of Satan over 1914. If it was ‘AOK’ to challenge you on it, you would not need to say so. The truth would do so for you. And neither can anyone agree ‘in part’ with truth, or make inference from it so that it becomes neither one thing or the other, for to do so, is to be ‘luke warm.’

          • Francis Bencharles

            That was simply babble Burt.

            • Daisy

              Happily for us we get more babble from Burt than psycho lol

            • Burt Reynolds

              Burble burble burble.

            • Jamie Mac

              who is osmosis, not heard of that prophet before. Sounds more like an Egyptian pharaoh 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              You’re right on the nail Jamie. Osmosis ruled Egypt on the cusp of the second dynasty, 2,013 BC. He had a daughter whom he called Phloem and a son whom he called Xylem. Together they sucked the land of Egypt dry of water and finance. His wife, Photosynthesis, succeeded him on his death and it is said that such was her beauty, she could turn light into sugar. She had a further daughter, Nutritionalsugaro, by The pharaoh Symbiosis (2026-1,951BC). It is said that such was the gift of gardening in the family, their descendant, Nebuchadnezzar II who ruled Babylon for 43 years, built the hanging gardens to a plan left by Xylem’s son Aminoacidicus. Sadly, the dynasty died out with Celluloseo, who succumbed early in life to severe Traceids.

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt , I am very impressed, did you have that information in your head, or did you research it. I have to admit I didn’t consider that osmosis was actually a historical person. It was a feeble attempt at humour.

              Thanks Burt, your one of a kind.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Jamie, I hope your joking! I used to do a bit of gardening. Look under osmosis on Google , phloem, xylem, etc etc. I’m afraid it’s me who has the feeble humour….sad to say.

            • Jamie Mac

              I believed every last word 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              Sorry, no offence meant. I was really just playing on Francis ‘ illustration of osmosis as I was inspired by your wonderful suggestion. Osmosis really does pass off as a pharaoh!

            • Jamie Mac

              I called your bluff , I was almost taken in after I googled osmosis. I love your humour and your imagination, sometimes this is most welcome as a relief of sometimes hard to understand comments.

            • Burt Reynolds

              As for divisions…..my own personal feeling is based on trust and the firm knowledge that there must be a truth. I accept that I do not understand the prophesy of the bible unless someone explains it to me. Then I can read the scripture and see if it applies. How do I know if it applies? I think, generally speaking, I rely on just one scripture and for me, it is the touchstone. Christ said that when he calls, his sheep will recognise his voice, and hopefully without deluding myself, that is what I feel when I read the articles on this site. I feel assured that I can put my faith in what is said. It is not to do with the speaker, but what is spoken. Brooklyn Kevin is another. Truth without partiality. When we read the bible, or are taught it (how will they know unless someone teaches them? Christ said), if we then try to put our own interpretation to it, then it becomes an adultery. We have to believe a teacher will be provided. Having something explained due to Not understanding is one thing, but adultery of truth is another. How to know the difference? ‘Those that hear my voice will recognise it…’ Jesus warned us not to go after others who will come and make claims. We see those even now. But if we are to put faith in those words, then what he said about people knowing his voice, must also be true. How else can a choice be made? If we do not put faith in Christ that he will lead us to water, then how will we recognise truth when we see it? Therefore a true Avenue of provision must exist. The alternative is to be ‘like the waves of the sea, continually being washed back and forth.’ People who divide, do so to lead away and not discuss rationally, the finer points that builds faith. A strong defence will prove a solid resting place. We just have to have the faith to recognise it when we see it.

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt, I understand exactly what you mean. I suppose there is one positive thing about people who divide , they have visited Roberts site and maybe the sound of truth will be refreshing to them. Somehow I doubt it though.

            • Francis Bencharles

              I like Aminoacidicus very much, good imagination Burt. You are the King. I’ll have to add that to my computer dictionary.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Now I know why Daisy’s husband wondered what was going on when she was laughing so much at this post of your’s Burt…it’s incredibly so funny! ??

            • Burt Reynolds

              Oh, I did though Francis. I spent considerable time trying to make sense of your arguement from the bible, putting all you said in the context of the supporting scripture as suggested, comparing that with the already stated theme of the bible, compared it to my interlinear, compared it with my bible and the watchtower bible and then compared it with the article. Against the standard of the bible, the article and my own admittedly small understanding, in conjunction with the thematic reference of the celebration, I found your arguement, or hypothesis, rather lacking and confused, as already mentioned, not to mention, convoluted. I also investigated your suggestion of angels appearing in the very near future and thought that without foundation also. Saying that I do not read the bible as much as I should, was simply due to my damaged eyesight. Osmosis is most certainly a jibe I would agree with as it refers wholeheartedly to the process of planting your roots firmly in the soil, ergo faith, sucking up the nutrient, ergo the Word, and transporting it to every last cell in the body…just as we feed our spiritual needs. Because I disagree with you, does not mean I disagree with the bible. As the watchtower ably demonstrates, as do all other religions, the bible can be made to represent the thinking and motives of the ‘teacher’. Hence the exhortation to check it out for yourself. Hence my thought that in the last resort, at the last minute, I would not be asking death to hang on a minute whilst I go back and check it all out again on someone’s say so. I have already made my mind up, based on the truth, as should we all.

            • Francis Bencharles

              More pseudo intellectual babble. You must have you PhD. in babble.

            • Burt Reynolds

              You’re right there Francis, not just a Masters in babble, but fact, my ancestors actually BUILT the Tower of Babble. You are soundly out-gunned. Only unconditional surrender for you I’m afraid Francis.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Uncle, Uncle Burt.

      • Observing Quietly

        Excellent response Burt Reynolds. As you will see below, any time someone disagrees with Francis Bencharles, he accuses them of not having read their Bible or the scriptures he quotes. That is an age old response designed to put you on the back foot. Glad you didn’t fall for it. I am with you and agree 100% with Robert Kings interpretation.

      • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

        Im with you man.

      • Andres Felipe

        Estoy de acuerdo Burt, si Jesús hubiera querido que solo los ungidos participaran de la conmemoración, él lo habría dicho…Pero no lo dijo.además, en la sena del señor cuando jesus la instituyó sólo había un ungido…Jesús; sus apóstoles recibieron el espíritu santo 40 días después. Burt, no es un asunto de si somos o no somos ungidos; tampoco lo es si vas a vivir en la tierra o en el cielo , es un tema de obedecer un mandato directo del señor jesucristo porque la conmemoración tiene todo Qué ver con él y solamente él, no tiene nada que ver con los ungidos … No es más. ..Así de sencillo.

    • Richard Long

      Not to be piling on, but do you honestly think what you wrote helped clear up ANYTHING for ANYONE on this subject?

      • Francis Bencharles

        Very clearly, NO

        • Daisy

          Its time to rest on one’s laurels in that case Francis? What you have to do, do quickly.

        • Jamie Mac

          Francis, good answer and very honest.

  • Joseph Stephan

    Passover or Memorial Celebration

    https://youtu.be/c8RmJlwwa0g

  • Arvid Fløysand

    “Now i urge you brothers trough the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you,but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.For some of the house of Chloe have informed me regarding you,my brothers,that there are dissensions among you.What i mean is this,that each one of you sayes,”i belong to Paul.” “But i to Apollos.” “But i to Cephas.” “But i to Christ.” Is the Christ divided ?” (1Cor.1:10-13)

  • Anderiega

    From the numbers in the yearbook, this does seem to be a touchy subject (over 18,000 partakers in 2016)

    I had the same question but for different scriptural reasons:

    John 6:35-59. Jesus audience is identified in verse 59….”he said all these things as he was teaching in the synagogue (* PUBLIC ASSEMBLY) in Capernaum.”

    I understand your reasoning “is it really so?” (voice of serpent Satan) and I’ve meditated on this. I do not want to ever be presumptuous. But whenever I read this John scripture it seems like a warm invitation to ANYBODY accepts Christ as their Savior. (Verse 53).

    I understand the illustration of the bride knowing she’s the bride (annointed ones)….But EVERYONE *observing* the wedding eats the cake!

    Couldn’t this just be another Rutherford interpretation to create a class system?

    The Christian Greek scriptures are written TO the annointed in general (right?) but obviously the principles apply to anybody seeking Jehovah and Jesus. Why are these words (like John 6) there for all of to read if it’s not a general invitation, regardless of a heavenly calling?

    Ultimately I understand each and everyone of us are responsible for our own actions and we can’t look to other men (or women) for validation. I only imagine that it (might) look like millions are rejecting Christ’s body/blood every year, because we’ve been thoroughly taught to do so.

    I’m genuinely confused and even distraught over this issue.

    • LW

      The truth is distinct and clear, while propaganda and lies are a seething mass of noise. There is an expression when there are “too many cooks in the kitchen”. If we give ear and the same amount of authoritative weight then yes we will be confused.

      Holy spirit NEVER, I repeat NEVER, causes division and many different sayings to be viewed as gospel.

      Division is evidence of the absence of God’s spirit!

      The hope for obedient mankind is living on the earth, and it IS the hope of a small number to go to heaven.

      • Anderiega

        Thank you. So what is John 6 all about? Does it apply to anybody?

        • LW

          Verse 40 states EVERYONE who exercises faith would have the opportunity for everlasting life.

          So aspects apply to those with earthly hope as well as the anointed.

          Jesus was simply giving counsel to his followers reminding them of their role in God’s purpose and reminding them that ALL who exercise faith will have the prospect of eternal life.

          • Arvid Fløysand

            Why did Jesus mention the manna?Look how he use the manna to illustrate his point…is manna something we can find today?No…why?….Because manna was a miracle “bread” that Jehovah himself provided for his people…by doing so He saved their life ..but not eternal life…Who was allowed to eat/partake of the manna/bread?Only the priests?….. No everyone ate of it…they had to ore else they would have died in that dessert..it ment life for them all…And why did Jehovah instruct Moses to keep some manna in the ark of covenant ?It sure looks like the manna was given to illustrate the “Bread” of higer value that Jehovah sent/gave by a miracle to provide life (this time eternal)….to who?… to his people ..to all who exercise faith in him…(Joh.6:40).Jesus Himself is the miracle “bread” from heaven and He is coming out of the (ark of covenant)..the new covenant that is the conclusion and perfect finale of all covenants given to us all the way from Adam-Noah-Abraham-Moses and Jesus who everything leads up to..the mediator of the covenant himself…and when he says clearly that all who wants to live must eat his flesh/bread and drink his blood/vine …and again who did Jesus address in Joh.6? Everyone..”So Jesus said to them:Most truly I say to you ,unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood,you have no life in yourself “..(John.6:53)There is no need for the chosen ones who indeed is privileged to be in a spesial covenant with Jesus to “shout” out who they are ore to make any kind of visible division…that kind of thinking/behaviour is the” leven” coming from the” fariseean” that we ought to stay away from…If this was spoken loud and clear in a KH…im sure many would got upset and even angry…they would maybe say that if all who exercise faith partake then how would we know who the chosen ones is?…do we have to know?…for sure Jehovah and Jesus know…and they will reveal them for all to know when it is time…They are like the firstborne who got saved on 14 nisan in Egypt..when all the Iseralites shared the first passover-meal with their doors marked with blood..(.Jesus is the door and the blood)..Behind that door they all partake…but they new that the firstborn was spesial..and those firstborne had to be “borne” again in some way..to buy them out…and later on Jehova made this possible and explained how (Numbers 8:13-19)…

            • LW

              Ok, so are you saying I’m wrong?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              No …its not about who is right ore who is wrong…its about using and open up our mind and search all scriptures like the Beroean did…i am wrong about many things all the time…so maybe you kan help me with some of these matters?please do…if it is ok for you…

            • LW

              Sure, I will try my best…

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Thank you…you are a true brother…i am very happy to walk along with you on this road…we are stronger together …and happier that way..:-)

            • LW

              You can mail me at andrewa771@gmail.com if you want

            • Arvid Fløysand

              I will..:-)…thank you very much

            • Joseph Stephan

              https://youtu.be/c8RmJlwwa0g

              “Call me the illustrator”

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hehe..ok…but you are much more than “the illustrator”..first of a true brother in faith..kind ,friendly,humble,loyal,humoristic,goodhearted…you are Joseph Stephan…my friend

            • Beverly kenyon

              This post of your’s Arvid gave me a lot to think about and I get the point (I think) about the bread and Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus being the miracle bread from heaven.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              We all have to do our very best in digging and keep on searching to try to stay as close as we can to our Saviour(Luk.18:1-8) . We run this maraton together and i hope we all can make it all the way to the end ..and if not for anything else so at least to give honour to our loving Creator Jehovah …i really enjoy to run among nice kind and loving brothers and sisters like you and all on this site…when have this world seen such a thing…a whole bunch of people holding hands while they run maraton?:-)

            • Beverly kenyon

              Two things in your post Arvid….and if not for anything else so at least to give honour to our loving Creator Jehovah, that’s so very true and a whole bunch of people holding hands while they run marathon, that really made me smile. You have such a loving and gentle way of seeing things. Hope your Mum is recovering from that nasty fall and there’s no real lasting damage even though the broken rib will take a while to heal and will cause her discomfort….awwww, that’s awful!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hello dear sister 🙂
              Thank you for your kind replay..yes my mom is recovering almost miraculous fast..she wanted me to give her best regards to you and Joseph and all the kind and lovely brothers and sisters on this site…i asked her about the rib earlier today and she told me that there is no pain..and i guess i must belive her on that because she was cleaning in the house,windows and floor etc..so yeah quick recovery..even the doctor said so..but she still have a dark spot under her nose..she is joking about herself being a Hitler lookalike for the moment 🙂

            • Joseph Stephan
            • Arvid Fløysand

              No one above and no one beside…you are simply the best illustrator there is HEHEHEHE 🙂 ,,,

            • Beverly kenyon

              Can’t breathe for laughing! That’s incredibly beyond funny! Really can’t stop laughing at that. Joseph, you really do make me laugh so much. I hope Arvid shows his Mum that post, she sounds like she has a good sense of humour and will love that!??

            • Sons of God

              This does not look very Christian spiritual.

            • Richard Long

              oh, please!

            • Sons of God

              What do pictures of Hitler have to do with a memorial posting concerning Jesus Christ’s evening meal to be this April 11, 2017? Seems very out of place an inappropriate for a Christian website.

            • Joseph Stephan

              It has nothing to do with Robert’s wonderful article, it has to do with a conversation I was enjoying with my lovely brother Arvid from Norway!

            • Richard Long

              Sorry, had to take my kid to school… now, to you….I am not qualified to answer your question, only to be exasperated by your presence.

            • Joseph Stephan

              True, we all know Hitler was evil, but my poor cat? I tried by baptizing him in the bathtub & reading the Bible to him but he just claws me ,scratches me, hurts me.
              Thinking about getting a big dog, that’ll put the fear of God in Him!

            • Joseph Stephan

              Disgusting , how your tone changed when you got barred from the site. Shows your true colors and who you really represent.
              Even going back and adding additional vomit to previous comments.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Could you tell me please why you feel I should view the watchtower as Jehovah’s organisation and the governing body as spirit led?

            • Jamie Mac

              Sons of god, well he obviously hasn’t fooled you then.Good Bye 🙂

            • “Sons of God” showed up immediately after I banned “Pursuing Truth,” having no history on this site, and a very similar IP. Obvious they are the same swamp creature simply wearing a different outer shell. lol

            • Jamie Mac

              You must have a very thick skin Robert, You get similar or even worse treatment on your You Tube channel. I feel for you, you appear to take it all in your stride and some of the comments must hurt.

            • Richard Long

              Or some stark industries special order Christ’s brothers edition spiritual armor! Could be the weight responsibility of being anointed has some earthy benefit?

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Richard, absolutely, I was reading some scriptures last night. Ephesians 6:14-16. Sums up exactly as you stated.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Yup, I caught it slithering out the backdoor. I STOMPED IT TO DEATH WITH MY BIG WORK BOOTS! RIPPED IT’S HEADs OFF, and fed it to the birds……….. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5cff393958471df8befde6c2d63d267cd903295d2ae0b21f9f523dfa86e20b4a.jpg
              Next time I call Chuck Norris!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              i new it 🙂 you even got a picture of that two-headed trollsnake hehe

            • Daisy

              Shapeshifters…

            • Daisy

              Hahaha hahahahaha. Now do one of Burt:D

            • Jamie Mac

              Ha, the Hitler imposter on the right

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s so good to hear Arvid. Wow, your Mum is like Wonder Woman! Doing housework with a cracked rib…I’m in awe of her! Love how she can laugh at herself despite being badly hurt! Hope you show her The Illustrator’s post to give her a laugh as it’s got to be one of the funniest things! Really happy she’s recovering well.??? Those virtual flowers are for your Mum Arvid.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Thanks…i will put those flowers in a vase and give it to my mum first thing tomorrow morning together with the funny Hitler cat…hehehe

            • Burt Reynolds

              Perhaps we need if anything, to sort out the figurative issues, with the straightforward command. When Jesus gave the blood and the wine to his diciples, he said that he himself would not drink of ( the same ) until in his new kingdom. Thus he indicated he was suspending his participation or waiting, until that time. But he commanded his disciples to carry on in remembrance of not just his life/death, but his promise to do so again, with them in the future. Did he say this to the embryo of the great crowd, or the annointed? If this was not the case, and it was open to all, then one also has to assume an overall participation in the benefits of that covenant, in heaven. That there is a separate class of sheep is evident through this. You are right that manna signifies life, but the reasons for it being included within the ark are, I believe, not stated, and so to put meaning on it, is an assumption. I am not sure that it is safe to assume that the issue of keeping the manna in the ark, signifies the bonding of two different issues at a future date. If it has significance, it is that Jehovah will preserve life. I agree that the reason for keeping the manna in the ark was probably an indicator of Jehovah’s promise to provide the means of life, and Jesus did die for all people. But it is also undeniable that he saved two classes of life, destined for different roles. To show this, in human terms, is surely legitimate given our human tendencies. Further, how do we show our acceptance of Christ? Through the emblems? Or is it via Jesus’ clear words that ‘he who believes in me, shall gain everlasting life.’? Surely both the annointed and the other sheep gain life through belief, acceptance, and in carrying out the Christian acts demanded of us to love one another. The ritual of drinking wine and eating bread is an indicator of role within the promise, not the promise itself. We could drink and eat of the emblems and it would not make the slightest difference to our salvation, if we did not have faith, love and deeds. It is indeed, safer for us (and also a great provision, a sign if you will to the great crowd) to know who the annointed are by way of observing this ceremony, so that we can hang on to their skirts, for it is they along with Christ that will have governance over us and, critically, lead the way. Is this not said in the scriptures? I shall go with you…? Well, ask yourself, why them? Why else would we need to take hold of these people? How would we know that they are these people? so; what is the point of us knowing of these people? Why also is there a division between the great crowd and the annointed if we are all equal in these matters? There are other indicators in the bible as to life, one of which was painting blood on door posts when the Angel passed over. Was the ark not sprinkled with blood also? I will not make any claim to be authoritative on this matter. I already accept Jesus as my saviour. He asks for belief in him as the sole indicator of life. I know that faith surpasses ritual. If it didn’t, what about those in jail so to speak? And I also think that George Orwell was correct when he wrote, ‘All men are equal, but some are more equal than others.’ What is more important…to believe, have faith, or to partake of a ceremony? What is the point of the ceremony, if not to make a distinction? What is the need to make a distinction between believers? What WILL make a distinction between believers and non believers? Is it the drinking of wine once a year, or faith, love and deeds? As for me, I’m just content to have come to know Jehovah. The rest will sort itself out. To do otherwise is to strain at the gnat and swallow the camel.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              That was a very good reply Burt..but how many were anointed of them who took and ate the emblems when Jesus command them to do so in memory of him ?…only one person in that room was….Jesus became anointed when he was baptised..yet they ate the bread and drank the vine….how could anyone know at that time who was the anointed?…it became clear later and at that point it also became very clear for all to see with their own eyes that it was not only the 11 faithful but a lot more…about 120 persons who were chosen…(Act.2:1-4)…only 11 of those had been together with Jesus when he gave them the” emblems”…so how could there about 50 days later on be 120?…because the also were chosen …by what?by eating the bread and drinking the vine?…everyone of the Isrealites at that time did…they were chosen by the holy spirit…so what did Jesus ment when talking about drinking the vine new with them in heaven?is there vine in heaven?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I would imagine what Jesus was referring to was figurative. No, as far as I know, there are no vines in heaven and if I may just develop that thought, it must be then that the emblems signified something other than physical. The wine was blood. What did his blood mean. The ransome. As did the bread. But that is open to all and we would agree on that. So what makes it exclusive for the 144,000? That they are chosen has to mean something and clearly there is a covenant with them in heaven. To ‘drink’ of it again, when they meet again, must have been said for a reason. How ever that reason translates between the 144,000 and Christ, it is clearly exclusive to them. The great crowd are not going to heaven. Also, those gathered were shown all of them, to be annointed with Holy Spirit at that time along with the apostles, so it is safe to say that none of the great crowd were there at the time. Why was there an increase during those few days? Well, being witness to the events would surely have opened the eyes of some, and in any event, how can we second guess the mind of Jehovah and who will, or will not be annointed? Is it not possible that having seen these things, the miracles, realised the significance, that some may not immediately respond and make themselves known, or decide there and then on thier belief?

              One could also look back at the Passover and ask who was this for? It was for Jehovah’s chosen people that had shown faith in him. Christ said, do this as often as you do it. So who did it? Jehovah’s chosen ones did it. Christ fulfilled that and instigated a new covenant.

              Those that were chosen either at the time, or 50 days later, or In between those times, and how events did, or did not apply to them, I am not sure. However, they would have been witness to the events and perhaps they were chosen by Christ, such as the Centurian who asked Jesus to heal his slave without even clapping eyes on him, because such was his faith that Jesus could….I don’t know. But I do know that I would not change my mind on a hypothesis alone. The scriptures scriptures show exclusivity, though I can only claim that from my own understanding, and that the symbolism pertained to a heavenly outworking of that covenant. Why else did Jesus say he would not take of the vine until he did so again in heaven? Why did he not say ‘until I take it with all my sheep’? Surely it is wise to just stick to what Jesus actually said, rather than to what we think he may have meant, or worse still, what we think he implied? I find truth in plain acceptance in what the bible says. I try not to put my own wants or needs over it for fear I may be wrong. In the end analysis, it is up to our conscience what we do, and in what we answer for. If you feel free to take the emblems, then surely you must go to the Kingdom Hall and do so. But then you have to be certain what it is that you are doing, the same as I must be by what I am not doing. We also know that blood represents the life giver. Are we therefore in taking that ourselves, applying to the act a significance that is beyond our station? What ever it may be, it was going to take place in heaven, when the 144,000 meet with Christ. I for one, know I’m not going to be there. So I am going to accept what the bible says that Christ said, and I will not look for greater meaning because if it can be debated, then it can be distorted. For all the things I could be done away with come the tribulation, not taking the bread and wine is probably last on the list.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              How did Saulus (later Paul)…become one anointed?
              By eating the bread and drinking the vine?
              So how and when did he became part of the covenant with Jesus?
              The anointing has to do with the holy spirit…Jesus himself became Messias (anointed)when he was filled by holy spirit when he was baptised..
              All those about 120 persons was anointed not on the memorial because of eating the bread and drinking the vine…but 50 days later when they was filled by holy spirit..
              Paulus was likewise anointed by holy spirit and not because he was eating bread and drinking vine…the holy spirit IS the vine and bread ..that was what Jesus also told them that he would send the holy spirit to them who he made his covenant with…no one else got it..only those who is in a covenant with him..His chosen ones…to eat the bread and drink the vine is not the ticket to heaven…they are symbol of His sacrifice for all who belive in Him…Jesus Christ is the one who by the holy spirit collect his chosen ones not by who he see eat of the bread and vine…just like the Levites were chosen to be spesial servants in the old covenant…while all eat of the same “bread”(manna)and they all drank of the same water…(i should have provide scriptures on this but im in a hurry right now…if you like i will give it to you later…just ask)….brotherly affection from Arvid 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              I quite agree that they were annointed later. I don’t think I said otherwise. I’m not sure I follow you, Arvid. You say that the wine and the bread is Holy Spirit, followed by ‘Jesus Christ is the one who by the holy spirit collect his chosen ones not by who he see eat of the bread and vine…just like the Levites were chosen to be spesial servants in the old covenant…while all eat of the same “bread”(manna)and they all drank of the same water.’ I did not imply that taking the emblems is a ticket to heaven, that would be silly. But, it is who is entitled to take the emblems and why, I.e., the chosen ones, who have the heavenly hope. You could ask why Jesus said it only to the apostles. Why did he not say as much to those who likewise had faith in him? He had many opportunities such as the sermon on the mount, the feeding of the 5,000, his trial in public, raising Lazarus, etc.

              I do not see a connection between manna and the bread Christ gave in respect of his body. Manna was simply given to provide the means of life to the Israelites. Any connection between the two is implied, not written. As I said, it is down to each individual to do what he thinks is right. The facts in the bible and that have been explained adequately by Robert and correspond to the scriptures is sufficient for me. If it is such an important point insofar as the Word is concerned, as with the law on blood, it would have been made clear. Why would Jesus not be clear on such an issue? Taking the emblems is not a test of faith, but a signal of faith in the promise. To all of us? Then why the difference? Therefore I am not looking for hidden meaning, possible relationships between other events, or even when the holy spirit was given.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Burt you are saying about the manna and the bread of Christ :”Any connection between the two is implied,not written”
              So i wonder way dont you take your own Bible and read what Jesus said?
              I did refer to Joh.6 in my first comment on this topic witch you replied to.As i understand it ..to eat the bread and drink the vine means life..eternal for many and immortal for some few…and the spirit choose and anoint.
              Jesus came to unite not to make devisions …to unite all with Him in heaven and earth ..so if you really want Jesu own words..look it up in your very own Bible like the Beroan would do.If you start of with John Chapter 6 and read verse 28 til 59..take your time and enjoy to let Jesus speak to you ..and never take my words for it..:-)

            • Burt Reynolds

              Arvid, why is it that when someone disagrees on this site, they accuse the other of not reading the bible? I did read your scripture that you quoted actually and read a quite different outcome from it in that, any connection between the manna and Jesus is figurative and backs up the role of the manna as being temporary. Physical life….manna…….spiritual eternal life…..Jesus. Manna temporary, Jesus, permenant. Both provisions of Jehovah, one being hugely different than the other. Clearly the eating and drinking of Christ’s body applies to all in a figurative manner in that we have to understand the significance of them, but it still remains as Kevin pointed out, that humans cannot enter the heavens. They have eternal life, not life in themselves. Not spirit. We will not see eye to eye on this and as suggested before, if you feel it your right to partake, then you must do so and I take it that you will go to the hall and do so. As for me, I don’t put myself in that bracket. I just cannot see what you see in the scripture and maybe as you suggest, I’m lacking in that skill.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              dear brother i did not accuse you for anything…please forgive me if i in some way have offended you

            • Burt Reynolds

              You haven’t offended me Arvid. My skin is a bit thicker than that. You just assumed I did not read the bible passages you quoted. I do not really mind that either, as it will probably be nothing compared with what’s coming, and on top of that, I read a lot of the bible that I don’t have a clue about what it means. So reading or not reading the bible is not the deciding factor in my case. However, it also is not an arguement is it that defines the apparant issues of the memorial, is it?

            • sally

              I thought there were only invited ones…..Jesus has not come to judge yet and therefore the chosen cannot yet of been chosen?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Chosen but maybe not sealed …to bee sealed they have to stay faithful until death ore like those who is still in flesh wen he arrive…they will then be sealed after being approved by Him…but as you say..all who belive in the ransom given from Jehovah by Jesus are indeed invited to live ether with him as immortal spirit beings ore on earth as humans with eternal life …the same ransom paid for and opened up and made those two ways of life opened…this is how Jehovah by Jesus and his ransom(bread and vine)united heaven and earth…it is not about division…it is and was never ment to divide Jesu faithful followers in to groups …but rather unite and by this connect heaven and earth by one single offer…that is what Jacobs ladder is all about (Gen.28:10-16) 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow, brilliantly explained and great question by Sally. I read a little bit the other day about Jacob’s Ladder and was left feeling I really didn’t get the meaning of it.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Yeah it is so comforting to see Jehovah loving care for all his creation and how He always unite…division is satans way…as we saw earlier today on this very site how damaging and discomforting it can be when someone try to make bad bad divisions among us…well our beautiful and strong bond of love protected us…Malachi 3:16…btw…my mom is very grateful of your concern ..and the flowers…and of course the Hitlercat hehehe

            • Richard Long

              You are clearly a studied and sincere brother and the love demonstrated by your earnest efforts to help us to understand your point, which, I think, was essentially that all Christians should partake, or at least feel free to partake of the memorial emblems? I get that you are all about Christian unity, we all are. We all long for it and cherish it!

              I feel like an idiot getting up here and thinking I might somehow inform your thinking, but I cannot for the life of me understand why we are debating one of the doctrines the WT got right and we DON’T have to be embarrassed about. And this, immediately following Robert’s essay affirming that only the chosen, anointed, invitees to the wedding of the Lamb ought to imagine they have a clean conscience for partaking of the emblems.

              We are united in our support for the Kingdom Arrangement, which by Jehovah’s design, DIVIDES most of us into a body of SUBJECTS and some of us into a body of RULERS and PRIESTS, until at some point it is not necessary to be ruled by an intermediary and our situation looks something more like Eden, only more densely populated This does not make one group more important than the other, just functionally ordered by the designer. In practical experience, every professed anointed Christian I have ever met, including Robert, generally thought and acted as though they were the LEAST important person on earth, principally because they considered themselves temporary, alien residents on this plane of existence. We could all benefit by individually adopting the converse principles that, in human relations, “I am no more important than any one else” and “No one else is more important than me”

              Chosen = anointed = invited to the wedding. Sealed = inside the wedding venue behind locked doors where non-invited persons will not under any condition be permitted to enter, wearing the appropriate prescribed garment, having been thoroughly screened, background checked, searched and examined. In between the separate, distinct events of being chosen and being sealed any myriad of circumstance can occur to enable or prevent an invitees attendance to the wedding, creating a scenario where the invitee has to be thinking and and acting in a state of constant vigilance demonstrating that said attendance is not just something nice to do on a Saturday, but the prime focus of the invitees existence. Meanwhile, the rest of us just have to exercise justice, to cherish loyalty, And to walk in modesty with your God!. Can you please explain how this arrangement does not, by Jehovah’s design, represent a DIVISION, if only a functional one. Our unity is only of value to Jehovah if we are unified in supporting HIS arrangement, of DIVIDED destinies, not attempting to equalize it. In practical terms, Jehovah has given Robert (or any of the anointed) a job to do and equipped him to do it. He will either do it or he will not. Likewise, Jehovah has done the same for the rest of us. We will either do it or we will not.. Although intersecting, they are distinct functions. Other than our obligation to support the anointed, their job and the perks that come with it is none of our business. Frankly, they are going to be called upon to do a lot of “Angel of Death” type of duty that I dont have the heart for. The invitation to heavenly service is foreign to humans, But for anointing by Holy Spirit, would anybody even want it? But for Satan’s accusations would any human even think it worth having. Everlasting life on earth is what my heart desires and maybe I am a miserable coward, but I am grateful to Jehovah for NOT anointing me, for DIVIDING me off from that destiny. I’m tired commence whipping me with the bible now.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hiya Arvid, I’m still getting round to reading the Jacob’s Ladder account even though I’ve read it before but of course I’m going to read it now with fresh eyes. Just wanted to thank you for your insight and also to say thank you for being generous and sharing your amazing insight on scriptures. You are a very knowledgeable brother and I for one am so happy you’re here to help ones like me who are eager to learn more from the scriptures. I like reading your posts as you write them in such a loving and humble way and it inspires me to really try to have such qualities but sometimes my personality doesn’t allow for it but the more I read your words written in your very insightful posts then the harder I will try to be more like that. Thanks to you Arvid I can’t wait to read that account and I know you have a great love of the Christian Greek Scriptures as that comes through in your wonderful posts so my next thing to do is read the Book of John. Glad your Mum like the flowers, just wished it was real and Joseph’s Hitler cat and I hope she had a good chuckle at that as she can’t laugh that much because of her cracked rib.

            • Thinking

              I second that ..

            • Burt Reynolds

              The bible indicates that many are invited, fewer are chosen. You are of course correct. Those that are invited I presume would know so, as were the apostles aware, but that does not mean that they will be chosen as you rightly point out. They know that they have to prove worthy of perfection to be given life in themselves when Jesus judges. You’re right again. Speaking for myself, I have not been invited, let alone have a chance of being chosen. My hope is earthly and thus according to a unique, it seems, understanding of the bible, I do not avail myself of the bread and wine, though I wholeheartedly support those that do with honesty and integrity in their understanding the significance of such.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              For there are many invited, but few chosen.” [ WHY? ] Matthew 22:14

              Once more Jesus spoke to them with illustrations, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who made a marriage feast for his son. And he sent his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Look! I have prepared my dinner, my bulls and fattened animals are slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the marriage feast.”’ But unconcerned they went off, one to his own field, another to his business; but the rest, seizing his slaves, treated them insolently and killed them.
              Read more> Illustration of the marriage feast (1-14). https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/22/#v40022001

              This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. Matthew 21:43
              Read more> .
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/21/#v40021043

            • Richard Long

              And, spiritually speaking, the emblems don’t appeal or “call” to me. More anecdotal rambling: I’m told by those anointed I have known that the holy spirit testifies to/with them in such a way they simply know beyond all doubt, the emblems are for them, same as they know beyond all doubt heavenly life is their (possible) destiny, Given it is no trivial matter to adjust ones thinking to the point of preparing ones spouse and children for eternity in paradise WITHOUT them, I can accept that. Dear old sister so and so did not subject herself and her family to such conditions on a whim or because she was mentally diseased For myself, heavenly life or the thought of its possibilities neither repels nor attracts me, just as the emblems neither repel nor attract me. The prospect of everlasting life in perfect health on earth in harmony with God, man and nature – that strongly attracts me, to the point that I want it for everyone else, even if I cant have it. Does this make me a “physical man” and not a spiritual one?

            • Burt Reynolds

              It makes you human Richard.

            • Thinking

              My goodness you explained that so well….I now understand that a lot better…

        • LW

          Hi , did my response help at all?

    • Burt Reynolds

      If the invitation was to all, then surely on this axis of faith of the whole bible, the ransome, would not Christ have made it crystal clear? The invitation was to those that were gathered around him and those who were gathered around him were to serve as kings and priests. Let the bible speak to you and be content with what it has to say, neither seeking deeper, hidden meanings, or obscure truths. Jesus died for all, but his covenant of rulership is with the holy ones. His blood was shed for all but clearly, are roles in creation are manyfold. If not, why are the chosen, chosen above others? And how was this role signified? And when did Christ say that they would partake of it together, again and where?

    • Song of Hannah

      Anderiega, you make quite a point with your reference to John 6. Some of the arguments presented have been clearly bogus (1 Tim 4 for instance) but I read the links to Perimeno’s explanation, and he makes quite a case in scripture. But then Robert makes quite a case as well. Rather than succumbing to “I follow Paul”, or “I follow Apollos”, I would like to “rove about” in the scriptures as Russell’s group did, who took a question and then pounded it out using every scripture they could find on the subject. And all the while, treating each other with brotherly love, as Arvid so eloquently reminded us.

      Therefore, I am going to create a thread in the forum for those of us who haven’t yet made up our minds, to discuss at length this very subject. Afterward, I will reply with a link to it.

    • Noe Namely

      YES, & more.

    • Andres Felipe

      Estoy contigo hermano en tu angustia. Lo que sucede es que la wt ha manipulado casi todo lo que creemos y saber Qué de todo lo que aprendimos durante tantos años es verdad o Qué no lo es es una tarea agotadora emocional y espiritualmente. Yo tambie al leer a perimeno me confundi porque el hermano es muy estudioso igual que Robert. Él utiliza textos que muestran que las otras ovejas debemos participar en los emblemas. Recuerdan que los gentiles también tenían que celebrar la fiesta de la pascua so pena de muerte ?

    • PursuingTruth

      “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you CANNOT have life within you.” – John 6:53. You have a right to be distraught because man has deviated from the Bible. “But it is in vain they worship Me, while they lay down precepts which are mere human rules.'” – Matthew 15:9

      • Perhaps you do not understand what it means to have life in oneself. It means having immortality. But immortality is not the same as everlasting life. Humans will live for ever but they will never be immortal.

        • PursuingTruth

          Your being facetious based upon your own personal preference of understanding.
          Satan the Devil was a bright morning star of Jehovah God, a spiritual son of God, not a human being. But, he is not immortal as he will be destroyed for all eternity including all the former spiritual sons of God who left their positions in heaven. So even immortal sons of God can lose their existence of being. The new covenant does not teach an earthly existence for all human life for all eternity and Jesus never instructed the same line of thought either. If so, please direct me to the scriptures where Jesus Christ and his apostles, including Paul, stated so in the New Covenant, that all human beings will have to live on the planet earth in the flesh for all eternity. Please give me the Scriptures in the Bible which state: “Humans will live forever but they will never be immortal.

        • PursuingTruth

          So, you have the final word and delete others responses to your response. Very disingenuous of you. When called upon to cite scriptural references, you do not, and just delete the person’s response. I see a humility issue.

          • live up to your user name. time is short.

            • PursuingTruth

              What is the premise of your statement? Your statement is a Logical fallacy, so please state your premise behind your line of thought.

            • Daisy

              Hello PT, we who know and love our DA will tell you that he’s only honestly being himself, so no offence is meant.
              Robert lovingly let’s us roll along with each other so it’s we ourselves who delete our own comments and as you can see for yourself the deleted comment is sandwiched between an exchange between Arvid and LW.
              Immortality is having life within oneself applied to those who reign with Christ as King’s and Priests…self sustaining, independent of Jehovah.
              Everlasting life is sustained by Jehovah dependent on Jehovah eternally, applicable to the great crowd who inherit the earth.

            • PursuingTruth

              I respectfully enjoyed your comment and respect your definition, so please respect mine. Thank you.

            • Daisy

              With loving admiration PT. No problem.
              Had you availed yourself with Robert’s articles before you commented here you would have found yourself in deep accord with most of us…
              And no, we are not a clique, as you’re joining in aren’t you ? And you’re most welcome…
              As I had to rush off to fix dinner after my reply to you first time, I forgot to mention that, at the end of the thousand year kingdom rule, when Satan is let loose from the abyss, those ones who join forces with him against Christ will receive death for eternity…and that’s the difference between the faithful with the hope of everlasting life being sustained by God ….they can die after surviving Armageddon because they are not immortal having life within themselves.

            • PursuingTruth

              Like I have stated, I have known Robert since he started on the internet over 10 years ago. I don’t really have the time to waste with trolling individuals who use ad hominem logical fallacies to respond to other’s and neither does Jehovah God.

              “When I was a babe I had the thoughts of a babe, but since I have become a man, I have the thoughts of a man.” I have been a Jehovah’s Witness for over 47 years and still active, so I am well groomed with Biblical intellect.

              Considering those who are immortal and those who are not, there is a resurrection of the righteous and a resurrection of the unrighteous, a resurrection of judgment.

              Depends on who goes to heaven and those who remain on the earth to be judged during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Only Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have that answer. “In the house of my Father are many dwelling places.” – John 14:2

              Which one can assume out of billions who go to heaven only 144,000 are actually chosen to reign with Jesus Christ as kings for a 1,000 years. Those that are to inhabit the earth one can assume are the unrighteous, a resurrection of judgment, of all the billions who have lived on earth.

            • Daisy

              Memo to self. .
              Rewrite Revelation and Genesis 3:15.
              P.s
              I’m no babe…in fact, today, I’m 76 years old and I’ve been baptised for 57 years but I’m proof of not having much biblical intellect until I started studying God’s word with an anointed one here.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I’m like you Daisy…not having much biblical intellect, but I’d like to think that changed when I landed on this site and started seriously studying real truth but forgive me for bragging a bit there as I’m trying to work on being modest! I didn’t know that Jehovah didn’t have time for trolls. Mmmm…wonder if he has time for Latin speaking pretentious individuals!

            • PursuingTruth

              Trolls = Fools! Wise sayings about fools, read Proverbs Chapter 26.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, Fools, Trolls….blah, blah, blah, whatever! Your user name is so appropriate. Forty seven years a witness and groomed with bible intellect and you’re still pursuing truth having learnt nothing with that horrid attitude of your’s.

            • PursuingTruth

              By your incoherent rambling nonsensical doggerel verbal demeaning you are indeed a fool yourself. Sorry, I don’t listen to fools. Be gone!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Listen Sunshine, take your own advice. Don’t worry, I’m happy to ‘be gone.’ Only if you’re gone as well and taking that hideous bad attitude with you.

            • Take it easy Beverly. He is gone. Hilariously, when he realized I banned him here he immediately went on the attack on my YouTube channel, declaring me to be a ‘delusional apostate’. So I banned him there too. The power of the BAN. I love it! lol

            • Beverly kenyon

              I wondered what that sound was…oh, yeah, it was gnashing of teeth! Don’t know about you Brother King as he called you evil, but I can’t stop laughing at being called an evil woman! He’s completely deranged! Brother King I deal with idiots like that on a daily basis and he’s an amateur compared to some so I’m not bothered about him.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Hi Beverly, lots of craziness, agree. The one thing that truly amazes me in all this, all with such intellect, such command of the scripture, but sadly used in a way to promote an unscriptural agenda. Creating chaos and dysfunction to those sincerely trying to progress in Gods word. But will say it’s easy to tag them early on as each come on with such piety, over slobbery, sickening kind words, and over time becoming vipers. Why? Anyway, have such respect for Robert in that he always allows open communication for ALL, sorry to say, my serious downfall, long time ago they would have seen the curb face first! Oh well, we can rest assured Jehovah sees all, He in His justice will in time (delete) in His way, all who’s motives go contrary to His true righteousness. Would it not be interesting to be a fly on the wall to see what these folks are conjuring up for their next visit? Not really, just hope they have found a new home elsewhere. Glad most have not taken this disrespect to heart!

            • Beverly kenyon

              It’s bonkers ShaSha! But we have to remember that the Devil can quote scripture so I’m not a bit impressed with their knowledge as you rightly bring out how they’re misusing that knowledge. You’re right, you can spot them a mile off as they speak in a really weird way. Yeah, Brother King is really long suffering and generous giving them airtime but in a way that’s a good thing as they get a verbal battering and shown up for the cranks they are! We don’t have to be a fly on the wall ShaSha as they’re already plotting their next demonic move…they need to get a life and stop trying to impose their will on ours! You’re in no way being judgemental ShaSha as you’re showing your disapproval at their outrageous behaviour and cheek using scripture to mislead but we can read their hateful words that reaveal their dark hearts. Not in a million years would I let ones like them get to me. Not bothered in the least and I hope you’re not. Hope you and your lovely family are thriving ShaSha.

            • Burt Reynolds

              What do you work at Beverley, do tell!

            • Beverly kenyon

              I work for Asda Petrol but before that I used to work for Manchester United on the phones selling their merchandise…best food in their canteen. I love my job as I get to meet the full range of people which is a real eye opener so that’s why I’m never surprised at the crazy things people do…I can honestly say, I’ve seen and heard it all and knowing all that makes me count my blessings daily and makes me empathetic towards my fellow human beings.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I knew you’d be working with people somewhere. I’ll pop in for some petrol!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah Burt, if ever you’re round here, Moston, Manchester pop in. It’s not just petrol, we’re in a big shop as well, like a Tesco metro, the Main Store is set away from us but we’re suppose to be a part of them but they ignore us so we’re like an independent state! And we work with the local police as well because of theft and other incidents so it’s very varied. Get really overloaded with people! Aaargh!

            • Sons of God

              I do not believe it is proper Robert King to laugh and joke about casting someone out, making sport of someone you banned, you should pray for them.

            • I just banned you too. Goodbye

            • Joseph Stephan

              I was able to run out and get a quick video of Son of God, PursuingTruth & Free at Last heading back to jw survey. Took off from the southern Baptist parking lot heading south…..

              https://youtu.be/wru7XVriBdQ

            • There are various creatures who periodically venture out of the swamp to revisit e-watchman. They try to lay their eggs here before before slithering back home. It is a seasonal thing.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Perfect analogy!

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              Halarious

            • Southern ShaSha

              They’ll be back! Robert, I so admire your patience!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I’m having so much fun on this site today. This is therapy.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Son Of Satan,
              Your a Disgusting troll

            • Richard Long

              Please delete my comment below, as it serves no purpose now. you will know which one.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Jehovah does have time for trolls. Isn’t Arvid from Norway? About as nice as troll as you could hope to meet. Did anyone else ready Finn Family Moomintroll when they were young? I know the moomins were from Finland, but Norway is next door. Trolls are very nice. They only have a bad internet name because they are naturally interested in others.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid is the nicest troll in the world! No, I’ve never read that Burt or heard of it. I was into Stephen King novels and then I had to stop reading them and had to chuck them all away as they were inappropriate for me to read if I wanted to be baptised.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Finn Family Moomintroll by Tove Jannsson. Get yourself a copy and step back to childhood. Very therapeutic .

            • Beverly kenyon

              I stopped reading books when I had to get rid of my Stephen King books and the only book I read now is the Bible and I’m not saying that to be self righteous…it’s really true, that and my home decor magazines and I look through the fashion magazines and all the rest of my reading material is this site and catch up on the news from Daily Mail online. But my friend and colleague Gareth is a real bookworm and absolutely loves books so I will recommend that book to him on your say so.

            • PursuingTruth

              You cannot compare one individual to another individual. Some people learn very quickly and others learn at a much slower rate. Some people study all there lives but never come to accurate knowledge of the truth. One has to exercise common sense, logic, wisdom, truth, facts, evidence, analytical thinking skills, critical thinking, prayer and astute researching skills. Some people lack common sense and are just plain delusional loving to have their ears tickled by other individuals.

            • Richard Long

              Did you just state that billions of humans will go to heaven??????????????

            • PursuingTruth

              No I didn’t, and if I did, you cannot prove otherwise. The Bible only states (if you accept the 144,000 as a literal number) will rule as kings with Jesus Christ in the heavens. The Bible does not state exactly how many people will go to heaven, who do not rule with Jesus Christ, not part of the ruling class with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ stated “In My Father’s house there are many mansions.” – John 14:2 (mansions, rooms, dwelling places) Those that rule with Jesus Christ is just one room, while there are many other rooms, mansions, dwelling places.

            • Richard Long

              I cant prove anything to anyone. I am not a scholar and not much of a “brother” at that, inactive and isolating myself as I am. You wrote: (cut and pasted)

              “Which one can assume out of billions who go to heaven only 144,000 are actually chosen to reign with Jesus Christ as kings for a 1,000 years.”

              Would you please restate this to more precisely convey the meaning you want me to take from it, keeping in mind the limitations of my backwards and ignorant barely functioning Amarakin mind?

            • PursuingTruth

              If you go back and read my statement I said “ASSUME” billions of humans will go to heaven. I am just using osmosis generalizing to get people to think outside their bubble. Osmosis: gradual or unconscious assimilation or adoption, as of ideas.

              Which many people on this post are greatly lacking, the gradual assimilation of ideas outside of their bubble.

            • Richard Long

              But WHY would I, or anyone else ever ASSUME billions of humans will go to heaven? Is there a scriptural basis for such an assumption? When you answer, please remember that I am a moron.

            • PursuingTruth

              Does the Bible state that ONLY 144,000 human beings will go to heaven? Or does it just say ONLY 144,000 will rule with Jesus Christ? The Bible does not state the Great Crowd is on the earth, if it does, you give me the scripture in the book of Revelation that states that they are.

              If your going to obnoxious with your questions and not earnestly seeking truth and understanding of the scriptures, don’t waste my time by responding to me. Just believe what you want to believe.

            • Richard Long

              First, my question is nothing but earnest and this forum will be the judge of that. Those who attend here will call me to account if not, that I can promise you. Second, the bible says that NO humans beings will go to heaven. EVER! Only spirit creatures can inhabit that realm, so a human has to die and be specifically recreated as an entirely different life form to enter . Third, you yourself state regarding the bible: (cut and paste) “Or does it just say ONLY 144,000 will rule with Jesus Christ?” Noone here has contested that point. Fourth, you were asked: (cut and paste) “WHY would I, or anyone else ever ASSUME billions of humans will go to heaven?” To my knowledge the bible says NOTHING on the subject, beyond the above mentioned Kingdom arrangement, so I’m not willing to assume anything not written because I’ve barely survived that shipwreck of faith via the WT . Fifth, you were asked to provide scriptural basis for why one, yourself included, might be inclined to assume or even speculate that even one more formerly human spirit creature beyond the scripturally specified 144001 , let alone billions , might eventually, at some point, inhabit the spirit realm? Have the new scrolls been opened for you in advance of the Millennial Reign?

              And, Finally:

              Sir, I am shocked that a seasoned, nearly 50-year veteran second generation Christian of such scriptural wisdom and biblical intellect as yourself would behave as you do. I have been in the proximity of your spirit for a single evening and I feel like a minor child raped repeatedly by a trusted elder. I am hoping against hope that the insolent condescending treatment you have meted out to every one of the gentle, humble congregants taking shelter on this forum that has brushed against you, including Robert, is not typical of your true nature Your zeal is certainly evident and your authority noted, but I can tell you, speaking for myself alone, you offend! For every one of the “seven deadlies” you have accused others here of committing, like contentiousness, YOU have provided a thorough demonstration of how to commit it with aplomb and beyond the maximum degree allowed by human decency I wish for you to have all freedom of speech and expression, but if you wish to continue here unopposed, I implore you to treat these gentle souls with all the respect you have so adamantly demanded for yourself. Granted, I am the sorriest example of Christianity living today, but you , sir couldn’t find the fruitage of the spirit with bothe hands if

            • Richard Long

              And I’m even more shocked that I took that douche seriously. Reeled me right in… a few of us I’d say.

            • Daisy

              Wish you’d been with us longer and you would have sniffed the divisive seed sowers earlier. You’ll notice how Bkly K says his piece and then shuts down. JS and DA Brian KB are die hards too. Feel good you learned something? X

            • Richard Long

              I’ll get it eventually. The self-imposed isolation has not been good for me. Honestly , Daisy, until I found this sight, I literally thought I was alone in the world, my wife & daughters not Witnesses. Recently reconnected with my step-brother (a MS or former MS in CA) a few weeks ago and we IM’d on Facebook for 4 hours. He was very encouraging, having been inactive himself shortly a while back following some personal losses in his own life, but we danced around WT issues choosing to talk about the automotive industry (my career) instead. I just feel like I’m walking around carrying a bomb, and I don’t want to set it off and blow up anyone’s faith . Maybe there will be a time to take those risks, but I’ve got to save myself, first , right? “when the oxygen masks drop from the upper compartment, secure your own mask before assisting your child with theirs” Anyway, thanks for being here. Always appreciate your comments.

            • Daisy

              I can safely say that most of us here have journeyed on the same bumpy ride as you my brother. Shared experiences prove that, but we are here now, thanks be, and breathing the pure oxygen of true prophecy, thereby counteracting with each breath the foul stench of indoctrination and the hijacking of our very souls.
              My zealousness to speak the prophetic truths here has alienated a few of my long term Jw friendships, them being loyal to me due to the 50 and 40 odd years we’ve known each other, and my husband is a 1914-er so I tread cautiously now. But opportunities do and will present themselves to slowly diffuse that bomb you’re carrying around, there’s still time. So happy to have you aboard…

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              Psalms 37:29 meek inherit and live forever ON EARTH.

            • PursuingTruth

              Original Response to Robert King which he is not allowing to post to his response, as it states “Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by e-Watchman.” He can’t direct me to the scriptures that I questioned him about so, he is not allowing my below comment to his response post.

              “Satan the Devil was a bright morning star of Jehovah God, a spiritual son of God, not a human being. But, he is not immortal as he will be destroyed for all eternity including all the former spiritual sons of God who left their positions in heaven. So even immortal sons of God can lose their existence of being. The new covenant does not teach an earthly existence for all human life for all eternity and Jesus never instructed the same line of thought either.

              If so, please direct me to the scriptures where Jesus Christ and his apostles, including Paul, stated so in the New Covenant, that all human beings will have to live on the planet earth in the flesh for all eternity. Please give me the Scriptures in the Bible which state: “Humans will live forever but they will never be immortal.

              Eternal life, however, is something altogether different. Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality.

              To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts. Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table. If immortality is God’s work, then eternal life is God’s glory.

              However, eternal life does not come automatically. We must purge our hearts of evil and fill them with the desire to do good continually.

              Our Heavenly Father, with love that is scarcely within our power to comprehend, desires more than just our immortality. He desires each of us to partake of this greatest of all gifts: eternal life. So, in essence, immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.”

            • Francis Bencharles

              Hi Pursuing Truth:

              When Jesus was raised up to heaven he was raised to a higher form of life than the life he enjoyed both on the earth and in heaven before he came to earth. He left his heavenly body when he came to earth and he left his earthly body at the feet of his Father in the heavens as another ransom (along with his heavenly body that he “emptied himself of” as told in Philippians 2. Hebrews 1 tells us that when Jesus remained faithful to the end he became a genuine part of God’s family and was likewise raised up to be not another angel in heaven, but Divine like his Father. Those who are part of the family of God in the strictest sense like Jesus is are immortal and live in a Divine Body. He no longer had an angelic body (he emptied himself of that and left it in heaven as one ransom. He no longer had a human body but left that at the feet of his heavenly Father. So, his Father elevated him to Divinity and presented him with an immortal Divine body. Next, Jesus is betrothed to a composite person of 144,000 who become his bride. Well, we marry only others of our kind. Angels do not marry humans and vice verse. So, humans or angels do not marry a Divine person either. So, the members of the New Covenant that Jesus made with his disciples at the last Passover he celebrated (who represent the entire number of 144,000) are also as a group, as members of Christ’s Bride also given immortality in a Divine Body. The composite person is Divine and therefore is able to marry another Divine person who is the Christ. Not all who partake of the Memorial Emblems will become immortal and compositely Divine, but only those who are in the New Covenant with Christ will. The others who partake of the former emblems which you will notice were presented “while they were eating” and not “after they had eaten” are part of a lesser covenant, but one which will entitle the partaker of everlasting life, not immortal life as the Bride of Christ. Does that make sense?

            • PursuingTruth

              Thanks for the information, but I was baptized over 47 years ago as a Jehovah Witness. So I have done extensive research on the Watchtower Society for many decades and have a large collection of Jehovah’s Witness book, magazines, going back to the 1800’s. So, I am well informed of all the teachings of the Watchtower from the past to present day and you are respectfully, not stating anything that I don’t already know. But, thank you for taking the time to make your statement.

              I am still an active baptized Jehovah’s Witness to this day, but I do not at this time adhere to all the doctrines of the Watchtower Society, which is made of mere imperfect sinful men. I have issues with their shunning of brothers and sisters like Robert King, who have simply disagreed with some of their practices, blood doctrine fractions, child molestation pedophilia two witness rule, 1914 doctrine, false date setting, two classes of Christian doctrine, those claiming to be anointed.

              Both my parents were loyal Jehovah Witnesses and both have died, my mother passed away in October 2015. Both my parents were in the generation that would not pass away. Well, so much for that generation that would not pass away.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Took the words right out of my mouth, only been here for a day and is very pompous!

            • PursuingTruth

              Really? In what way? Please me kind and do not speak with contention. It is one of the seven things Jehovah God hates.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Loosen up, your tie is choking you. Put down your book bag. This is a very loving laid-back group. Talk to people like your at the most beautiful beach with a cold beer in your hand! Nobody wants to be talked at…….. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9ab0b2b8ba203f1f40ed1fb90bce11746f472400f878d264da78873ddc8c5e13.jpg

            • PursuingTruth

              Oh, your saying your in a click group? 🙂 Please do not troll me. Thank you.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Welcome to the family, pull up a chair and enjoy the fellowship here at Jehovah’s virtual congregation of different types of personalities and perspectives.
              Your welcome and thank you! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b42be79da151d7909ea2285b06fb9c57b6eaa62a48d13680d09be1c20b483f9d.jpg

            • PursuingTruth

              Another court jester. 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Unbelievable! You’re taking offence! You’ve been all those things you’re accusing Joseph of ever since you arrived on Ewatchman. And I’m glad you’re in the pompous section on the small table! It must be fabulous living in that world of your’s where the air is rarefied.

            • PursuingTruth

              You are a very angry delusional person. Seek humility.

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s rich coming from you! You really can’t hear yourself can you?! You swept in here expecting everyone to kowtow to your intellectual superiority and when that didn’t happen resorted to calling people names like trolls and fools and whatever else. I will always be angry with haughty arrogant self seeking types like you as you can’t go around getting away with and hurting people’s feeling with your stupid ridiculous bad attitude!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Stop being bombastic Beverly, can you not just join us on the pomposity table. Bombasticism is too much even for me. Get behind me Bombast, or you will make me angry and delusional…..so my psychiatrist tells me.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Burt you do make me laugh so much…you’re truly blessed with that cracking humour of your’s. I will join you on the pomposity table but I must warn you I might start a food fight with some of the pompous diners!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hey Beverly, don’t send him to sit with me, Robert and Joseph on the evil pompous table. Cant he sit at the evil woman table with you?!

            • Beverly kenyon

              I’m doubled up here laughing so much at that Burt! Yeah, I’ll pull up the best chair for him on the evil woman table….I’ll bloomin show him evil! What a nuisance!

            • Joseph Stephan

              One thing Jehovah blessed me with is a good judge of character. And I pegged you from day one as a self-righteous pompous fool……drunk on your own stupidity .. what do you know…. I was right! Now take a seat at the HEAD of the pompous table. Will continue to pray for people like you, get in the back of the line because Jesus said your now last.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hey just a minute, Stephen, I AM at the head of the pompous table. The truely pompous would seat himself at the lowest place on the table so that he can be elevated to full pomposity personified in front of ALL people! Keep a grip man, keep a grip. You cannot be truely evil if you keep making mistakes in such a pompous manner.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Joseph, please stop being ‘ ad hominem’.

            • PursuingTruth

              You also, in your little click group of subversive malcontents.

            • Jamie Mac

              So glad your enjoying your visit here

            • Joseph Stephan

              Hehe, Yup, not. At least I can say is the pompous fool taught me a new word ??? and I might have to expand the pompous banquet facilities! Just so his head would fit.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I know where I’d like that head to fit and it’s on psychiatric ward getting the help he clearly needs because he’s not normal! Crank! And I’m allowed to say that as I’m the ‘evil woman Beverly Kenyon.’ That is hilarious! And do I care? Don’t think so!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Joseph, Is it not strange, my old evil pompous friend, how the JWs are so full of angry hate? I remember when I was at the height of pomposity during my watchtower years, that my pomposity was never full of hatred, only dissapointment that others could not grasp the lie as firmly as I did. On leaving the JWs and becoming a disgusting evil person like Robert, I knew I could relax back in the arms of Satan and associate with only the best of pomposity and a refined stupidity, unsuppassed by anything the watchtower had to offer me. The first thing I did on joining this site was to stiff an old widow for a Rolex watch, and pay into my new-build portfolio. I signed up to the 1914 Extended Generation Pension Plan with built in funeral expenses and money back guarantee that none of my family would speak to me again. This freed me up to leave my home to the watchtower and ensure my children would not benefit from any inheritance. AND….. it all came with a free gift….my very own Go Bag, complete with a Get Out of Armagheddon Free, Christ Has Already Come, voucher. I must admit that for a moment I was wavering, when the governing body replied to Robert’s offer with a free Hypocritical Denunciation and Denial Pack for use at Royal Commission Inquiries. I’ll have to leave off here as Robert has just sent me off on a free Subversive Malcontentment Training Session at Pomposity House. I hope to see you there, along with the evil woman!

            • KB

              Hey guys, any chance you could squeeze me in at the pompous table. I’m feeling a little left out.?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Ohhh, I don’t know about that KB. Have you even read the Truth that Leads to Everlasting Pomposity? Have you actually been called to pomposity yet? Do you accept that the Governing Pomposity is pomposity led? Have you even counted your time in being pompous or brought anyone into pomposity? I think before you reach out to become qualified as an Elderly pompositor, you should instead take a place with the Ministerial Department at the Evil Women’s table. Sorry, but you’re just not as pompous as me. I’m even more pompous than Stephen and twice the evil woman that Beverly is!

            • KB

              Well I admit my pomposity needs some work. I hope soon that I can be at a level of your pompousness in the near future. I’m not as limber as I once was, it’s much harder these days to insert my head into my butt as it once was when I accepted every utterance from the masters of pomposity the governing body. As it is, I guess I must accept my place at the kids table of up and coming pompous ones. Soon I hope to be equal to JS, his level of pomposity I admit is unmatched to you, but he is truly on your heals. I will look forward to my place at the evil woman Beverly’s table. We will gaze upon your greatness if you allow. Arvid maybe Burt will allow you a spot with me and Beverly at the evil women’s table of up and coming pomposity.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              i really hope so…a great honour hehe 🙂

            • Arvid Fløysand

              i guess we have to clean up the mess he left,since he puked all over the place…and that smell to..lets open up the windows and get the nice fresh air back again

            • Joseph Stephan

              My boot really took the brunt of the stench, after I removed it from his ass.
              New tablet clothes, new floral bouquets, all new food…… the music’s just starting grab a seat -time for the prayer❤ https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d3b8233fdd33f9d6e02c906b62d8565bca3f801b4b6f696df2ac5a2ca89ee1b6.jpg

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              This guy has the ramblings of a narcissistic sociopath.

            • Joseph Stephan

              This is who you need to worry about, you jackass….. not JWs
              Listen up……… he’s talking about you!

              https://youtu.be/mD–lHALcm0

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, and another thing Jehovah hates, is a Haughty person! But that wouldn’t apply to you would it as you’re already in the Kingdom and have been made Perfect!

            • PursuingTruth

              You are a very angry delusional person. Seek humility.

            • I am not going to allow you to attack the posters on my site. I have closed your account. Goodbye

            • Sons of God

              From reading the posts, looks like a few of the posters were attacking PursuingTruth saying things that Jesus Christ would not say to others.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Poor old Robert! You don’t half get some stick. Robert, you have never expressed anything but truth on this site, straight from the heart, your learning and your altruistic concern for others. You are surrounded by friends of truth and those that love truth. To me, you are a brother in faith.

            • Jamie Mac

              He obviously was a big fan of yours.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Thank you Robert for keeping your site free of vipers. It’s nice to know that you got all our backs, as we all got yours! I never lose my cool, but seeing that vomit from a 70 year old so called elder, got my blood boiling .

            • Joseph Stephan

              Disgusting hypocrite

          • I have not deleted anyone’s comments

            • PursuingTruth

              I sincerely hope that is true Robert. I have know you since you first started on the internet when you had just the open forum and their was a lot of arguing on the open forum and you had to step in and mend the fences. You had other assistants with you at that time. I believe it was back in 2005, I know it was over 10 years ago.

            • Sure, I delete comments and I ban posters. All I am saying is I did not delete yours. It has been a few weeks since i have deleted anything. Now, if you want to accuse me otherwise, ironically that is something that might get you tossed.

            • PursuingTruth

              It is your website and I would not put up with contentious individual trolls myself. I respectfully thank you for taking the time to state that you did not delete my comments. Thank you Robert.

            • PursuingTruth

              But, you do hold comments made to you in response. “Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by e-Watchman.” Unless this is a website or Disqus glitch.

          • KB

            This disqus board is quite fickle. People pull their comments all the time and makes things confusing. Comments are posted and don’t show up. Conversations are hard to follow when it doesn’t flow correctly. We all know this because we have been here, some for years not days or weeks. I’ve only known Robert to delete comments if you are a complete Butt. You could be on your way, tread lightly.

            • PursuingTruth

              I have know him since he first started on the internet, which I believe was over a decade ago. Please speak with forbearance and try making a statement to me before you make a hasty generalization. Thank you.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s odd. I left the Jehovah’s Witness organisation because all I could see were delusional, arrogant, egotistical men. I shall come straight back to the JW organisation. At least I will be safe from paedophiles and I will be able to donate my money to the governing body to pay off their Court fines.

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt at your best here. Why do folks want too make statements like Pursuing Truth. Sometimes I think it is best to simply not reply and maybe then will get disinterested and quietly leave, never to return. So much hate and disrespect shown in a few words.

        • PursuingTruth

          I will give you another chance to respond, please do not be unkind and spiteful. Please respond to my response. Do you actually believe by deleting others responses you are being open minded and genuinely concerned about others.

          ——————————————————————————-

          Satan the Devil was a bright morning star of Jehovah God, a spiritual son of God, not a human being. But, he is not immortal as he will be destroyed for all eternity including all the former spiritual sons of God who left their positions in heaven. So even immortal sons of God can lose their existence of being. The new covenant does not teach an earthly existence for all human life for all eternity and Jesus never instructed the same line of thought either.

          If so, please direct me to the scriptures where Jesus Christ and his apostles, including Paul, stated so in the New Covenant, that all human beings will have to live on the planet earth in the flesh for all eternity. Please give me the Scriptures in the Bible which state: “Humans will live forever but they will never be immortal.

          Eternal life, however, is something altogether different.
          Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality.

          To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts.
          Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table.
          If immortality is God’s work, then eternal life is God’s glory.
          However, eternal life does not come automatically. We must purge our hearts of evil and fill them with the desire to do good continually.

          Our Heavenly Father, with love that is scarcely within our power to
          comprehend, desires more than just our immortality. He desires eachof us to partake of this greatest of all gifts: eternal life. So, in
          essence, immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Is that you ‘Free at last’? Your manner of speaking and the way you set out your post with lines going through it reminds me of ‘Free at Last’. But if you’re not just ignore this post of mine. Ta-ra!

            • PursuingTruth

              No, it is not ‘Free at last’ 🙂

        • Andres Felipe

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          Cambiar a españolI have been reading all the comments on this particular topic and I can not stop thinking because so much discussion and dispute between my beloved brothers. There are no comments on this topic and there are no comments for this comment. I think our distrust of WT is greater. And it is natural that we all be like this. As our brother Robert the WT taught us, as the man of sin, not only did they not teach the falsehood of Christ’s presence in 1914, but he had used his wiles to create anti-biblical rules to control and dominate the people of God; We are all So it is natural that we doubt almost everything we have learned with the WT. But thanks to Robert I believe that many have balanced our faith, (personally I considered myself an atheist); You have learned to use our faculties of reasoning (which were dull thanks to the WT) and many have drawn very deep conclusions. Robert Hi has been for all children and has nonetheless criticized that they have risen as experts; He himself has been a true teacher to us apart from the superfine apostles of the congregations. I’m thinking Speaking of perimeno (who is also Christ’s brother) is not against robert nor criticism nor judge I think both are doing an exceptional job in teaching the people of God for the preparations for difficult times. … I have to tell you both a thousand and one thousand thanks for your beautiful work and that Jehovah rewards you for what you sincerely do for his name.
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        • PursuingTruth

          Satan the Devil was a bright morning star of Jehovah God, a spiritual son of God, not a human being. But, he is not immortal as he will be destroyed for all eternity including all the former spiritual sons of God who left their positions in heaven. So even immortal sons of God can lose their existence of being. The new covenant does not teach an earthly existence for all human life for all eternity and Jesus never instructed the same line of thought either.

          If so, please direct me to the scriptures where Jesus Christ and his apostles, including Paul, stated so in the New Covenant, that all human beings will have to
          live on the planet earth in the flesh for all eternity. Please give me the Scriptures in the Bible which state: “Humans will live forever but they will never be immortal.

          Eternal life, however, is something altogether different. Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality.

          To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts. Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table. If immortality is God’s work, then eternal life is God’s glory.

          However, eternal life does not come automatically. We must purge our hearts of
          evil and fill them with the desire to do good continually.

          Our Heavenly Father, with love that is scarcely within our power to comprehend,
          desires more than just our immortality. He desires each of us to partake of this greatest of all gifts: eternal life. So, in essence, immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.

        • PursuingTruth

          Why are you holding my response? “Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by e-Watchman.” Please, answer my questions, which is only reasonable:

          The new covenant does not teach an earthly existence for all human life for all eternity and Jesus never instructed the same line of thought either.

          If so, please direct me to the scriptures where Jesus Christ and his apostles, including
          Paul, stated so in the New Covenant, that all human beings will have to live on the
          planet earth in the flesh for all eternity. Please give me the Scriptures in the Bible
          which state: “Humans will live forever but they will never be immortal.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Let’s suppose for arguments sake that your right and everybody should partake!

        Then that would mean the great crowd which are to live on earth forever would have to be present and temporarily relocated (in the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father.) In order to partake

        Now ask yourself does that sound reasonable in view of the scripture below.

        But I say to you:
        I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine
        until that day when I drink it new with you (in the Kingdom of my Father.)
        Matthew26:1-75
        Also please take notice that Jesus gave the cup to them his “chosen ones” at that time and not to any other group.

        27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he “gave it to” them,”
        saying: “Drink out of it, all of “YOU”.

        I do not request that you take “them” out of the world, but that you watch over “them” because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. Sanctify them by means of the truth; my our word is truth. Just as you sent me into the world,
        (I also sent them) into the world. And I am sanctifying myself in ” their behalf,” so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth. John17:15-19. Read more>

        https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/17/#v43017015

        • Max

          Very well explained Kevin. Logically the great crowd can not be relacated to heaven and then sent back. Matthew 26 closes the deal then.

        • Jamie Mac

          Kevin, thank you this , I was getting a little confused. Respect and love to you my brother.

        • PursuingTruth

          You are basing your premise on the great crowd by the watchtowers definition. Now base it on the little flock that are actually the first century Christian Jews, that Jesus only witnessed to and the sheep that are not of this fold (little flock) as the Gentile nations. Remember, there is a resurrection of the righteous and a resurrection of the unrighteous, a resurrection of judgment. Also, please direct me to the scriptures in the new covenant which states: “The Great Crowd are to live on earth forever.” Jesus never made that statement.

          • Bklyn Kevin

            Everything I said is scripturally based , you could twisted it around as much as you want but you cannot deny what the scriptures actually say,

            The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.Psalms 37:29.

            The righteous equal the great crowd, I mean surely you don’t believe that the unrighteous will inherit the earth???.

            Use your common sense along with your powers of reasoning.

            Who may ascend to the mountain of Jehovah, And who may stand up in his holy place? Anyone with innocent hands and a pure heart, Who has not sworn a false oath by My life, Nor taken an oath deceitfully. Psalms 24:3, 4. Read more>
            https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/psalms/15/#v19015001

            After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”Revelation7:9-10.

            In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them+ and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every Revelation7:13-17.

            And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Revelation 21:4

            The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. John8:47-A.

            That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it . And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’Matthew13:13-15.
            PS don’t bother replying back as I herd enough of your nonsense.

            • PursuingTruth

              “The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.” – Psalms 37:29. This is a quote from the Hebrew covenant, and as the Watchtower states: We are not living in the Old Covenant we our living in the New covenant. The New Covenant wrote the letter of the law into the hearts of man, the Old Covenant was written in stone. The scripture just states the righteous will possess the earth, not going into detail who these righteous ones will truly be. The Old Covenant also addresses stoning people to death for violating the Sabbath, prostitution and many immoral practices, and eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But, if a person desires to justify these scriptures and many more scriptures similar to these, they will say. “Well, the New Covenant null and voided those scriptures.” Cherry picking the Bible is very common, when one wishes to try and prove THEIR point of view. That is exactly why there is over 30,000 different Christian denominations.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I tell you something, if you are an example of Christianity, I’ll take disfellowshipping any day. Let me out!

      • Cathii D’Anthonii

        Has Jehovah himself called You?_ Romans 8:30 Says Jehovah personally called the anointed..I would really hate to be in that position taking something I wasn’t called for from Jehovah..The anointed have no doubt about their calling… Do you really have the right?

        • PursuingTruth

          Please give me proof and evidence that they have been called other then mere words that they have. That is not evidence and facts. Just saying “I am of anointed” does not make it so. I could say I am of the anointed. You put your complete trust in man when Jehovah God states that we are not to have trust in mere imperfect sinful man. Psalms 146:1-5, Jeremiah 17:5-10 and many more scriptures.

          • a watcher

            The anointed don’t have to prove anything to you. Get over yourself.

  • Arvid Fløysand

    “Put away from yourselves every kind of malicious bitterness,anger wrath,screaming,and abusive speech,as well as everything injurious.But becom kind to one another,tenderly compassionate,freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you”…(Ephesians 4:31-32)

  • Arvid Fløysand

    Divisions is a sad thing…who want to divide,and why?…Jesus came to unite…why is it so hard for us to understand?”Jerusalem,Jerusalem,the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her-how often i wanted to GATHER your children together the way the hen gathers her chicks under her wings!But you did not want it.Look! Your house is abandoned to you.For i say to you,you will by no means see me from now until you say,Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovahs name. (Matt.23:37-39)

    • PursuingTruth

      Exactly why there is over 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today. Because people like to have their ears tickled and deviate from the Bible by putting their complete trust in men and not the Almighty God Jehovah. People love to worship with the fleshly eyes instead of the eyes of faith, why they make men into idols and corporations into idols.

      • Arvid Fløysand

        yes and im afraid we are more than less part of it..i guess we all need to repent and do our best to reflect that kind of love that Jesus learned …and still try to learn us..we all have very long way to go

        • PursuingTruth

          Yes, that is true.

  • Arvid Fløysand

    I will tell a secret…and than its not a secret anymore…i Arvid have enemies …many…but none of them are my brothers ore sisters ore any humans at all…i have to love all humans..i have to forgive all humans…because i am loved and forgiven…i cant judge because i am going to be judged myself…and there is only One Judge…i cant teach anyone because i am not a teacher…there is only One Teacher…i am a happy asker..i ask and pray every day about the deeper meaning of all i can think of…just as you all who read this do…i am only a small weak sinful human…who are my enemies?…its the same enemies as yours my dear brothers and sisters…”Because we have a struggle,not against blood and flesh ,but against the governments,against the authorities ,against the world rulers of this darkness,agaist the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”(Ephesians 6:12)

    • Noe Namely

      I enjoyed your comment…

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Arvid Fløysand asked “Where will the Kingdom be in the future?..
      The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever. Revelation 11:15. Read more>
      https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/revelation/11/#v66011015

      Arvid Fløysand asked “What is the product of the vine that Jesus will drink new ?
      Jehovah Has Become King – Introduction
      Ex cerpt:
      That is what the parousia is —that Greek word being defined as “being alongside.” Their reclining at the table and Christ ministering to them is something extraordinary —evoking the last evening Jesus spent with his disciples before his death, when he passed the bread and the cup among them and girded himself as a servant and washed their feet. It was on that occasion when Christ said to them: “I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”
      Some may assume “that day” when Christ shares the cup again with his disciples is when they are joined together in heaven. But that is not the case for those who are alive when he comes, as is evident from the passage cited in the 12th chapter of Luke, which connects the original evening meal and the climactic parousia.
      Their sharing the cup of union with Jesus in the Kingdom means that those anointed disciples will be sealed —assured of their place in the Kingdom.
      That is when the “righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father” —even while still on earth. This is the phenomenon about which Paul wrote in the eighth chapter of Romans regarding the revealing of the sons of God. Read more>
      https://e-watchman.com/jehovah-become-king-introduction/

      Arvid Fløysand asked” Do this vine that Jesus will drink new in the Kingdom have something to do with the memorial?

      Who Should Partake of the Memorial Emblems?
      Exserpt:
      But what did Jesus mean when he said: “I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”
      The “blood of the covenant” represented by the red wine is intended to make it possible for God to declare sinless those who are party to the covenant, thereby opening the way for them to enter into the marriage of the Lamb. Their being declared sinless is more than just being forgiven. They are considered perfect. So, that is why Jesus said he would not drink wine again until he drinks it with them in the Kingdom. Here is what is stated in the 19th chapter of Revelation: “Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.””
      Notice, please, that the marriage of the Lamb is an exclusive, invitation only affair and those participating in the event are said to be “invited to the evening meal.” So, that is when Jesus will drink the wine of exaltation with them then, when Jehovah’s purpose to create a Kingdom of Christ and 144,000 is complete and goes into operation. That will indeed be a time of great joy.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/partake-memorial-emblems/
      Illustration of the true vine 15:1-10.
      I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator.
      Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/15/#v43015001-v43015010

  • Andres Felipe

    Me duele la cabeza. Como recuerdo esos días en que sabía todas las respuestas wt. Jajaja. Pero tengo que decir que si hubiera estado en el primer siglo diría : amo a Pablo y amo a apolos. Amo a Robert y a perimeno.

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      Yo tambien, Andres. Perimento, yo no se..Cree que es importante todo la gente a tomar la memorial…….pero me gusto parte de escribe.

      • Andres Felipe

        You know what I noticed? That perimene is very similar to the beliefs of the Christian churches. But it made me remember that Brother Rusell that the truth is distributed in all the churches and that what he was doing was to pick them up in one place. Perimeno is very, very convincing and I think he puts on the table many other questions that we always did but that we were never able to do because of fear.

  • Andres Felipe

    I have a headache. As I remember those days when I knew all the wt answers. Hahaha. But I have to say that I was in the first century I would say: I love Paul and I love apollos. I love a Robert and a perimeno.

    • Arvid Fløysand

      Dear brother…continue to “knock” on the “door”and it will be open to you…Jesus IS the “door”(Joh.14:6)…You already knocking…and know how to do it…so keep on knocking by praying and reading directly from your Bible…ask in prayer and search for all answers in Jehovahs own word…we do not follow men…only Jesus…but we do well when we share spiritual food with other lovers of truth..(Malachi 3:16)…yes we can learn from each-other but Jesus himself is our Teacher …He is very much alive ,real and more powerful than ever…if we belive this,than we can be able to move mountans…and the headache will fade away 🙂

      • Andres Felipe

        Gracias amigo .es gratificante saber que tienes amigos en otros países

  • Freddy

    “Let every man be proved a liar but let God be found true.” “Do not go beyond the things written.” “Do not add to God’s word or take away from it.” Please read 1 Samuel Chapter 8, Psalms 146:1-5.

    Mere imperfect man has always elevated himself above other human beings to be worshiped, idolized, glorified and for others to do obeisance to them. The Bible is the only book that is inspired. All the writings and magazines from the Watchtower Society are NOT inspired. When it actually comes to salvation I will put my trust in the Bible and not in man. – Jeremiah 17:5-10. It is clear that since Jesus only witnessed
    to the Jews, the little flock is composed of the Jews during the first century and the other sheep is the nations of the Gentiles.

    After the nation of Israel rejected Jesus Christ the apostles took the good news of the kingdom to the Gentiles. There is NO two classes of Christians, there is just one class of Christians, Jews and Gentiles. The number 144,000 in my personal studies I believe to be symbolic and not literal as the Watchtower Society would have you believe. All other scriptures describing the 144,000 the watchtower states, that these scriptures are all symbolic, but ironically, only the number is literal. This is very convenient and powerful for the GB, in which they have total control of the Watchtower Society and other people’s lives.

    The number twelve can be found in 187 places in God’s word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God’s power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole. 12 x 12 = 144 12,000 from each tribe of Israel = 144,000 which can symbolic for completeness.

    This self claiming of preference of being a special class of privileges, above others has the smell of the air of arrogance by elevating themselves while lowering others. Even though Robert King has been disfellowshiped by the Watchtower, he still holds on to the Watchtower Society’s dogmatic interpretation doctrine of the 144,000 as literal, which coincidentally, includes himself. Robert King himself claims to be of this special anointed class, which demonstrates his own self-adulation.

    Anyone claiming to be of this special 144,000 number class have absolutely no evidence, facts, to support their claim other than their own personal statement. “Well, I am of the anointed, I just know it.” Anyone can make the same claim, when you do not have to provide evidence to prove your assertion. Each year, this seems to be the case with the number of those self claiming themselves to be over 18,000 of this special privileged anointed class, who partook of the emblems.

    The number has been increasing each year over the last 10 years instead of diminishing. How unlike the first century Christians who provided proof that they actually had God’s spirit. Even Jesus Christ himself provided facts and evidence to support his claims who he actually was. Jehovah God the Father even spoke from Heaven in his own voice three (3) times approving of his son Jesus Christ, thus confirming his special spiritual annointing. Dissimilar from the first century Christians men, imperfect sinful men today are professing the same statements without any facts, evidence, angelic support, confirmation from the Father and his son Jesus Christ to assert their claim.

    Who should we obey? “We must obey God as ruler rather than man.” – Acts 5:29

    If the number 144,000 was literal, I believe it would have been fulfilled during the 1st century when it was self evident when the spirit of the Father, Jehovah God,was factually confirming the ministry of Jesus Christ, the apostles, Paul’s ministry, Pentecost, the growing Christian ministry to include the Gentiles (not of this fold) the completion of the inspired Bible in 100ce by John, the Book of Revelations.

    All we have today is over bloated self-adulated, egotistical men aspiring to have authority and control over others by claiming themselves to be of some special anointed class of rulers, whom upon death will not
    have to face judgment but will have been granted eternal life in the heavenly realm. But, how unfortunate for the great crowd, the other sheep, no matter how many hours of special pioneering, sacrifice,
    living a righteous moral life, having great love for the Father, his son and his kingdom, they will still upon death or survival into the new system, will not, have been granted eternal life.

    Contrary to the one’s who claim to be of some special class of anointed 144,000, the other sheep will still have to prove themselves while living on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ and at the end of Jesus Christ’s 1,000 year reign to face a second judgment when Satan the Devil is let loose again. How special and fortunate indeed though for the one’s who claim to be of some special anointed class living today, they get a free pass to eternal life escaping judgment and not having to wait a thousand years to see if they actually will be granted eternal life.

    God created man and man created religion with over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity. There are thousands of denominations claiming they alone have the truth, not unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses with all there erroneous doctrines and teachings over the last 130 years. Each denomination with their own dogmatic interpretation of the scriptures.

    As Jesus Christ commanded: “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you CANNOT have eternal life within you.” – John 6:53. All should partake of the emblems and the memorial should not be a night of rejection of the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ. No where in the Bible does it state that one’s shall attend the memorial of Jesus Christ as OBSERVERS and refuse the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ. This is man made traditional doctrine.

    As the Bible states NOT to put your TRUST and Salvation in man, I believe I will follow the inspired word of Jehovah God the creator and not mere imperfect sinful man.

    I find that it is quite interesting that Jesus stated: “For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord’s death until he comes again.”- 1 Corinthians 11:26. According to the Watchtower, Jesus arrived back in 1914, so it is indeed erroneous why they continue to keep observing the memorial, as observers, rejecting the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ.

    New scrolls will be opened which shall forever put an end to mere imperfect sinful man’s rule, their speculation, their false teachings, their dogma, their arrogance, their lack of humility and their

    self-adulation.

  • Freddy

    Robert King, try allowing people to comment who do not totally agree with you or are you totalitarian like the Watchtower Society which you were disfellowshipped from.

  • PursuingTruth

    “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you CANNOT have
    life within you.” – John 6:53.

    • Francis Bencharles

      That is true, but Jesus was not saying that all who partake of the emblems of the Passover or Memorial will be a part of the New Covenant with him, but only the ones who have been chosen by his Father and Mother will (Jewish Parents chose their children’s spouses). If you eat of the emblems of the New Covenant that were eaten by the disciples (Judas was not there by that time, he had been sent out earlier in the meal) without having been actually chosen by Jehovah, you are in a heap of trouble. So, like the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians “discern the body” or salvation covenant that you are in and only take of that loaf and drink of that wine that was done “while they were eating” and not “after they had finished eating” when the New Covenant emblems were taken.

      • PursuingTruth

        The Bible does not state, “if you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of the son of man you will be in a heap of trouble.” Please cite the scripture that makes that statement. The Bible only goes into detail about those who would come to the memorial meal of Christ and eat of the evening meal, as unworthy. Many would over drink and be gluttons and prove themselves unworthy to drink of the evening meal of Christ, being drunk with wine and gluttonous with food, making a mockery of the Christ’s memorial evening meal. Peter partook of the evening meal as one of the anointed, but later denied even knowing Jesus Christ three (3) times. Many would say he was unworthy to partake of the evening meal.

  • Bklyn Kevin

    More food for thought .

    144,000 sealed and the Revelation of Christ.
    Excerpt:
    QUESTION: How is the number 144,000 inclusive of (if literal) ALL who will go to heaven? A unique feature of the 144,000 sealed ones is indicated at Rev. 6:11 where it says they wait under the altar until “the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brother WHO WERE ABOUT TO BE KILLED AS THEY HAD BEEN.” Rev. 7:4 gives us the specific number of these sealed ones. Does this not indicate that they all die? However, 1 Cor. 15: 51 reveals that not all will “fall asleep in death”, and 1Thess. 4:17 says “the LIVING who are surviving will, TOGETHER with them, (“them” defined in vs. 16) be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air…” How do you reconcile this scripturally?

    ANSWER: This is a very deep subject and it is not something that is easy to understand or explain. But I will try to make it simple.

    First, the 144,000 who will ultimately rule with Christ in heaven are chosen from among mankind over a period of approximately 2,000 years. Jesus said that ‘many are called but few are chosen.’

    Some times you hear Jehovah’s Witnesses say that so-and-so is one of the 144,000, or something like that. But this is not really a proper thing to say since even though a person may be anointed – that is to say they have been called, invited – that does not necessarily mean that they will ultimately be approved — chosen.

    Obviously, though, upon an anointed person’s death Jehovah will have either approved or disapproved them for entry into the heavenly kingdom.
    Read more> https://e-watchman.com/144000-sealed-and-the-revelation-of-christ/

    • PursuingTruth

      Based on your premise you are assuming the number 144,000 is literal and not symbolic. The number 12 is used in 187 places in the Bible and there are some significance to this number. The number twelve seems to be very important to God and it represents, in most cases, the number of perfection and authority.

      The number 12 shows up in the Book of Revelation 22 times and are very important in that book and particularly in the New Jerusalem. The number 144,000 is based upon 12,000 individuals from each of the twelve tribes of Israel as according to John in his vision.

      But, according to the Watchtower the 12 tribes from which they come are symbolic, and all personal references (male virgins etc..) identifying the 144,000 are symbolic. Only the number is literal, when in fact the number itself can be symbolic, which can be attributed to a very large number of individuals of perfection and authority and not literally the exact number of 144,000.

      Nonetheless, if one is to states that 144,000 is literal and 144,000 go to heaven to rule with Jesus Christ, no where in the Bible does it state that millions, billions will not go to the heaven who are not part of the special class of 144,000 who personally rule with Jesus Christ. “In the house of my Father are MANY dwelling places.” – John 14:2

      Have you ever asked one of the anointed to prove that they are of the anointed. Jesus proved who he was as did the apostles.

      • Southern ShaSha

        So exactly what are you implying!

        • PursuingTruth

          What have I stated that is not scriptural? What have I stated that is unreasoning? I could make the same counter productive comments you made concerning yourself.

    • PursuingTruth

      “First, the 144,000 who will ultimately rule with Christ in heaven are
      chosen from among mankind over a period of approximately 2,000 years.
      Jesus said that ‘many are called but few are chosen.”

      Where in the Bible is this statement “over a period of approximately 2,000 years?” So, in a period of over 2,000 including the first century Christians, 144,000 chosen one’s could not be found out of billions of people who have lived over the past 2,000 years? And the number of partakers of the evening meal keeps increasing every year for over the last 10 years? Delusional reasoning and non-biblical. Nonsensical doggerel. You are very presumptuous with your words assuming what others are stating and thinking.

  • Larry Wilson

    Christ does not put “new wine” into “old wineskins.” So there will be a time, and it is now, that Christians will follow two separate doctrines. I thus don’t anticipate to change or correct any concepts only to have you reflect on how the “new wine” anointed interpret the two issues of partaking and the forbidding of marriage. So this is just for the record.

    1. The issue of who should partake and who should not is a moot point if after Christ’s return. Period. The Lord’s Supper was set up during the period of Christ’s absence. So if JWs truly believe Christ returned in 1914, that’s when the Lord’s Supper should have officially ended. So the primary issue is why are JWs partaking at all if Christ returned in 1914? So who should partake or not is a non-issue based on a false premise.

    2. The issue of “forbidding marriage” and eating certain foods is applicable to JWs because they forbid polygamy where it is legal. The Christian system does not end polygamy; it is not an illegal or immoral practice. So JWs break God’s law by by forcing polygamist to divorce their secondary wives on grounds other than fornication. The requirement that servants in the congregation should be husbands of one wife with their family in subjection was a practical rule since a man with two wives is already dividing his attention; he would not practically have the free time to serve in the congregation without being seen as neglecting his domestic responsibilities. But the fact that those with multiple wives were politely excused from serving as elders or ministerial servants in the community shows that there must have been men with multiple wives who were active members in good standing in the congregation. Certainly, there is no evidence of a sudden demand these men divorce their secondary wives and turn them out into the street, opening them up to fornication. So the “fobidding of marriage” by the apostate WTS relates to its practice of ending polygamous marriages on other grounds than fornication where polygamy is legal.

    As far as forbidding certain foods, the issue has to do with stumbling a brother with a weak conscience. There are zero food restrictions for Christians other than not stumbling someone who has a wak conscience about eating certain things. So a rule was made for the congregation that members should abstain from foods with blood or things sacrificed to idols. But that’s while they were eating with other members of the congregation. If you were eating at the home of an unbeliever, though, you were not to even ask what was in the food! You could eat anything. So Christians are under absolutely no dietary restrictions whatsoever and that includes blood products and tobacco. You consider abstinence of certain foods only when you’re around a brother who might be stumbled. But if you are alone at the meat market or at the home of an unbeliever (such as a relative, etc.) then you eat everything without question because there simply are not dietary restrictions for Christians. That kind of ritual is meaningless in a Christian setting under the new covenant. So when JWs institute a restriction on blood or tobacco, they break God’s law. The Bible does say “abstain from blood” in one place, but in another place to eat without asking. But there is a caveat here. You eat whatever you want if you’re with an unbeliever or alone. So there is really no conflict. Eating blood was restricted if you were eating in the presence of a believer, particularly one who might be stumbled by this new freedom to eat anything. But if you were alone or eating with non-believers then you were not to even ask or inquire about what you were eating.

    In conclusion, polygamy, eating blood or tobacco are not Christian restrictions and the WTS violates God’s laws when they impose those restrictions. Second, if Christ arrived in 1914, the Lord’s Supper should have officially ended in 1914. So participating in the Lord’s Supper at this time is a 100% farce anyway — not saying 1914 is the date Christ returned, it wasn’t, but JWs claim that’s the date.

  • Larry Wilson

    The “new wine” doctrinal approach regarding who of JWs should partake. The parable of the vineyard workers relates to JWs specifically and their two-class system. That is, the vineyard workers work for 11 hours. A half hour is 3.5 years so a full hour is 7 years. So this reflects the vineyard work of 77 years from 1914 to 1991. The first workers are promised a day’s wage, the “penny,” representing the heavenly calling. But when other workers were hired, starting with the third-hour workers, they are not told what they would receive, only “what is fair,” and clearly something less. So they did not expect the “penny” which was the heavenly calling. They expected eternal life on the earth. The 3rd hour workers would have been recognized 21 years after 1914; 1914 + 21 = 1935. So indeed, JWs officially recognized the “earthly class” as of 1914. But guess what?

    Once the 11 hours of work was completed in 1991 and the workers were to be paid during the 12th hour from 1991-1998 from the first to the last, ALL the workers were given the penny to the shock of the 1st-hour workers!! They ALL got the penny! That means once the work was over, though not originally invited into the heavenly class to ge the penny, now all the other sheep are eligible for being in the heavenly class. So there is no distinction now after the 11th hour between an earthly class and a heavenly class. ALL get the penny.

    So, therefore, there is no moral conflict as far as the heavenly hope and who gets invited and who doesn’t. At one level ALL are invited to get the penny if found worthy. That is, ALL the “other sheep” are eventually invited into the heavenly class to get the penny, to the surprise of the 1st-hour workers, to whom this is a big surprise.

    BUT…here’s caveat. One would thus expect everybody from 1991 to start partaking right? Wrong. That’s because the granting of the penny after the work occurs after the master returns. The Lord’s Supper is to end upon the Lord’s return. So the payment of the penny is an indication of the return of the master and therefore the Lord’s Supper should have officially ended. So it is not that thousands of qualified “other sheep” don’t realize they are now in the heavenly class and have the penny, it’s just that they understand that once Christ arrives the Lord’s Supper officially ends and so it’s unnecessary and perhaps inappropriate to continue to celebrate the Lord’s Supper after 1991.

    But the principle of excluding the “other sheep” from participating is the issue here. They are NOT excluded. Everyone in the end is invited to get the penny, including the “other sheep” of JWs who make up the 3rd through the 11th hour workers coming into the vineyard work from 1935-1991.

    Second is the issue of Isa 6:13 which says: “13 “But there will still be a tenth in it, and it will again be burned, like a big tree and like an oak, which after they are cut down leave a stump; a holy seed* will be its stump.”

    Basically, the Jews lost the majority of their seats in the kingdom. But a holy remnant was chosen to remain which makes up the stump of the tree that was chopped down for the Jews. This holy stump remains Jewish and is made up of natural Jews. This holy stump is the 144,000. But Isaiah shows this represents one-tenth of the tree. So rather than the JW concept that only 144,000 will be in the heavenly class, actually 1,440,000 are in the heavenly class. The 144,000 just represent the natural Jewish remnant that remains in the heavenly class. So basically no problem with several thousand newly anointed ones coming into the heavenly class. In fact, not enough qualify to fill the number if you follow other scriptures. Many beg off when the call comes, many fail the calling. According to the Bible, when the “ten virgins” are applied to the anointed ones among the WTS, 5 out of ten virgins fail the calling! That’s a 50% failure rate. So in the end, there are more than enough heavenly seats for the worthy.

    Also, the “little flock” represents those 5 wise virgins among JWs. “Have no fear, little flock.” But Christ takes them out of the organization, he separates them from the goats in the WTS and brings them to “other sheep not of this fold.” So another very important understanding is that the evil slave represents the WTS who fails to produce as it should. But that slave is just one of “ten slaves” sent out in 1914 to do business. This is just the one servant class that failed. It’s coin, represented by the “little flock” is given to the slave that had a 10-fold increase. In another parable three slaves are mentioned; one with a ten-fold increase and one with a five-fold increase. The coin given to the evil slave is given to the slave with the 10-fold increase. Meaning what? Meaning the 10-fold sect and the 5-fold sect make up the “two witnesses” who facilitate Christ at the second coming. So the true faithful anointed ones from JWs get induced tinto the largest of the “two witnesses” ministries. While the WTS, full of goats and false sheep are abandoned by Jehovah.

    Now I appreciate this is “new wine” and some cannot deal with it. That’s a given. Nor do they have to. Bottom line is, though, that everyone at some point is offered a chance to be in the heavenly class, that the number in the heavenly class is really 1,440,000, that Christ does not return until after 1991 and once he does he ends the official Memorial Lord’s Supper ritual so who partakes after 1991 is a complex issue since the official Lord’s Supper ends upon Christ’s return.

    The sealing of the 1,440,000 has been completed and the door is now closed as of April 4, 2015. We are on the brnik of the end of this system of things. Remember, the UN viciously attacks Babylon the Great and burns her with fire, and now we see the beginning of that. What would happen to the WTS if it were banned in Russia and all their facilities were confiscated? The WTS is now a key part of BTG! Don’t forget the WTS joined the UN in 1992. Don’t forget president Russell was buried under the Satanic synbolism of the seeing-eye pyramid. The WTS is being oppressed because they are associated with the undergrond activities of the “Illuminati.”

    When the UN turns on organized religion, which it is beginning to do, then the UN will become the 8th king and will establish “peace and security” in the world, which makes sense if it labels all religions as terrorist organizations. Once they declare that, which will happen within one year and 3 months or less (Daniel 7:11, 12), then sudden destruction will take place and God will establish Christ to begin his 1000-year rule.

    And don’t be fooled by thinking Russia’s suppression of the WTS has to do with their religious beliefs. the WTS is the ideal cover organization for secret CIA operations. The WTS is the perfect cover for covert operations. They are full of Freemasons and have been from the beginning. So this is the beginning of the end. God’s chosen ones have been gathered and sealed. There is nothing left now but the end of the world. So get ready.

  • PursuingTruth

    “There is no good way to answer fools when they say something stupid. If you answer them, then you, too, will look like a fool. If you don’t answer them, they will think they are smart.” – Proverbs 26: 4,5.

  • Sons of God

    It will be a long lasting relief when Jehovah destroys this system of things. So much pain, death and suffering going on around the earth. I pray for the end of this system of things and the day the only ruler of the earth will be Jesus Christ.

  • Andres Felipe

    All this shows that we were in a “comfort zone” to let the WT teach us ALL without saying anything at all. Personally I think the WT just taught us the good milk of truth (just the base) but no solid food. That we are taught the importance of being faithful to jehova to be honest and good people …. that is taught by any church for what one expects more from. People are GOD.

  • Sons of God

    Seems like a lot of discontent by reading some of these postings.

  • Sons of God

    I don’t think I will be happy spiritually on this website. Bye.

  • Joseph Stephan

    I was able to run out and get a quick video of Son of God, PursuingTruth & Free at Last heading back to jw survey. Took off from the southern Baptist parking lot heading south…..

    https://youtu.be/wru7XVriBdQ

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    To My Dear and Respected Brother ROBERT KING
    I agree with your article and it is logical but you said as for Rutherford, he was right on a lot of things. But what about introduction of alcohol in Bethel where as it was not in the days of Russel. Will a man who is drunken and supported by another person to get on to the podium was really enlightened by holy spirit? I have some doubt on this man Rutherford. Rutherford’s use of alcohol contradicts the rule at Leviticus 10:9 and Ez:44:21. Though a demon worshiper Shivakumar Swamiji who is the is the head of Sree Siddaganga Mutt (1907-still living) Tumukur dist Karnataka South India will not do such a thing as his behavior and age itself is a proof.

    • Alex Henrique

      To be anointed or not to be, that IS the question! To really say that this one or that one is chosen or not is chosen, it is up to God to affirm this. In the meantime we must be guided by 1 Corinthians 4: 5,6.
      We must not forget all God’s description of himself and his ways of acting. Let us not forget how God dealt with the sin of important people in biblical history, such as David. I
      think the same principles apply today to the GB and to others
      around the earth who have claimed to be of the anointed class.
      None of us wants Jesus to directto us the words of Matthew 25:41.

  • Andres Felipe

    españolhello dear brother Robert … I just read this article and for the first time I do not agree with you. I explain: the celebration of the memorial is a direct mandate of the Lord Jesus Christ; two: it has nothing to do with the anointed ones, it’s all about jesus and his holy sacrifice. third: it is not a requirement to be anointed to participate in the emblems in the commemoration. for if it were so the apostles would not have partaken of bread and wine when Jesus instituted it … and fourth: it has nothing to do with the hope that we have, whether we live on earth or in heaven, the commemoration it is an opportunity to obey our Lord until he comes. As well as the organization has apostatized about 1914 also has done with respect to this so fundamental subject. ..to obey our Lord

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Let’s suppose for arguments sake that your right and everybody should partake!
      Then that would mean the great crowd which are to live on earth forever would have to be present in heaven so that would mean they will have to be temporarily relocated
      (in the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father.)
      which is in heaven In order to partake because Jesus said “by no means will he drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you
      (in the Kingdom of my Father.)
      Matthew26:1-75
      Also please keep in mind that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom so how can the great crowd be present in heaven in order to partake if flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom ?
      Corinthians 15:50.
      Now ask yourself does what you said sound reasonable in view of the scriptures?

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Where will the Kingdom be in the future?..(.Matt.6:10…Rev.21:3 )

        Is there vine in heaven?

        What is the product of the vine that Jesus will drink new ?

        Do this vine that Jesus will drink new in the Kingdom have something to do with the memorial?

        • Giuseppe
          • Arvid Fløysand

            Hehehe….thanks…you made me laugh so hard with that one 🙂

        • Beverly kenyon

          The Kingdom will be on the earth!

          • Richard Long

            Give us another dose of the truth about Rutherford, Bev!

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’d have to ask KB that one Richard. KB is an expert on that guy. But I must say, Rutherford wrote a book called, Angels, where he openly said he received information from ‘Angels’. Well, imo, wouldn’t that make a person a spirit medium?! In the 1988 Revelation book chapter 20, page 125 it reads in part, ‘This suggests resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today’. No wonder that book was jettisoned out of print!

              Rutherford brought in most of the doctrines of the JW religion and for me, I do not listen to a person who says they communicated with ‘Angels’ as I look to the Bible for divine truths and to the Christ, Jesus, who said, ‘I am the way and the TRUTH and the Life’. So Jesus is the Way, the route to Truth and Life. Jesus is the source of TRUTH.

            • Thinking

              Hello Sis Bev. ..how have you been..hope All is well..you caught my attention with the Book…ANGELS AND WOMEN……i actually read that..and found it fascinating. ..I must look into it author a little more….
              Here’s some info for you….it’s quiet amazing how we printed it..and it actually looks,like the ..truth book I came in on…anyway I thought you would find this info interesting ….stay well and safe over there..xx
              textsAngels and Women
              by Mrs. J.G. Smith

              Usage Public Domain
              Topics Charles Taze Russell, Watch Tower, Watchtower, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seola, Golden Age, J.F. Rutherford
              Collection folkscanomy_religion; folkscanomy; additional_collections
              Language English
              Angels and Women (1924). This book is a revision of the book Seola by Mrs. J.G. Smith. According to The Golden Age magazine (Oct. 27, 1924 p. 35 and Golden Age, July 30, 1924 p. 702), published by the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Seola was revised at the suggestion of Charles Taze Russell and published as this volume. Editions of the book at the headquarters of the Watchtower Society (Bethel library) state: “Introduction by J.F.R. [Joseph F. Rutherford]. Appendix by C.J.W. [Clayton J. Woodworth]. Written by a brother had been long in the service, was incapacitated, and sought to provide for himself by thus “indirectly” presenting some valuable information. Not altogether up to date, as “Angels” booklet and other information supplements and revises what this work contains.”
              Identifier AngelsAndWomen
              Identifier-ark ark:/13960/t2x352p6b
              Ocr ABBYY FineReader 8.0
              Ppi 300

            • Thinking

              Here’s a bit more info on it ….
              Angels And Women (Seola)
              Posted on December 31, 2013. Filed under: Is it true what they say? | Tags: angels and women, Charles Taze Russell, J. G. Smith, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seola |

              Rate This

              Blizard’s site makes the following assertion:

              Russell recommended his followers read the book, Angels and Women.He personally supervised its editing and said it was beneficial because it throws light on certain Biblical subjects.

              What are the facts?

              In 1878, a book by the name “Seola,” written by Mrs. J. G. Smith, was published. It was evidently written as a fiction novel, but some state that Smith claimed to have written it in under the influence of the spirit world. In view of what is reported to be in the book, this is very probable, since it is reported that Mrs. Smith would probably not have had the knowledge presented in the book except by such an influence. Thus, it is claimed that Mrs. Smith wrote the book through what is often called “automatic writing,” which is a form of spiritism in which a spirit actually does the writing through a human being.

              In 1924, another book was published by the A.B. ABAC Company, of New York, entitled “Angels and Women,” which is based on the earlier book by J. G. Smith. As far as I have been able to determine, contrary to what is being stated on several sites, this book was never published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, nor by the International Bible Students Association.

              This later book was not exactly the same as the book “Seola,” but the book “Angels and Women” is an edited version of the earlier book. I am still not sure who edited this later book, but there is a reference to a “Bible Student” who was “a personal friend of Pastor Russell.” This comes from a review of the book as presented in The Golden Age magazine (this magazine was not printed in Russell’s day), thus the “Bible Student” was probably actually a follower of Rutherford and Rutherford’s new teachings and organization. Of course, Rutherford himself had been a personal friend of Russell’s before Russell died, but we know that after Russell died, Rutherford rejected and often misrepresented what Russell taught. One author, Ken Raines, claims that a JW told him that the revisor was “Ed Brenisen,” who was indeed a follower of Rutherford, and what became “Jehovah’s Witnesses” leadership. (See Reference 1 below.)

              The “Angels and Women” book has been reproduced on the Rutherford Rainbow CD-ROM. This CD-ROM may be obtained from Amazon by clicking on the locales below:

              <for latest pricing and other info, click on appropriate locale below:

              Rutherford’s Rainbow – USA * Canada * United Kingdom
              (referenced for research purposes, not recommendation of content.)

              A new version of the 1924 editon has been released by Jim M. Rizoli (not associated with the JWs or the Bible Students).

              This book may be obtained from Amazon by CLICKING HERE:
              (referenced for research purposes, not recommendation of content.)

              There is nothing in any of the writings of Russell that speaks of a book called “Angels and Women.” Indeed, this book did not exist in the days of Russell. There is no evidence at all that Russell personally supervised its editing. However, it is possible that Russell did come across a copy of the book “Seola,” written by Mrs. J. G. Smith, as a novel, and it is also possible that he might have suggested that some of his co-workers might read the book to see what, if anything, it might have to do with the dawning of the millennium. Russell several times in his writings showed how the demons will present truths in order to get people to accept a greater lie and he sometimes quoted material written by others to show this, and he could have had such an interest in this book similarly. This does not mean that he was “recommending” the book for general approval, since he often sought to get the opinion and suggestions from others concerning if and how such items might be utilized in the pages of the Watch Tower. Evidently, Russell decided against any use of the book, since the book is never mentioned anywhere in any of Russell’s writings. However, the only book that he could possibly have recommended to his associates would have been the earlier book, “Seola,” since the later revision did not exist in his time. Surely, however, if he had done so, there would be some record of such a recommendation in his writings, but there is no such recommendation. I could find no mention of either book in the Bible Students DVD Library. As a whole, I would say that Bible Students have nothing to do with either the “Seola” book or the “Angels and Women” book.

              The Golden Age, in 1924, claims that Russell personally supervised the editing of the later edition, and wished that it be published at an opportune time. I personally do not put much faith in what was being said by the leadership of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1924, since there were many statements being made after Russell died that have been proven untrue.

              References (I do not necessarily agree with all the conclusions and/or statements made by these authors):

              1. “Angels and Women,” Ken Raines
              http://www.seanet.com/~raines/women.html

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi Sis Thinking, great to hear from you and hope you and your family are all alright.

              Thank you for the interesting information regarding that book, Seola. This book was dictated in 1888 under the direction of a repentant pre-flood Angel/demon. Russell came upon this book, Seola, and had it edited by a friend of his and Russell went on to offer it for sale in the Golden Age which would be like the Awake magazine of today.

              There is a audio recording of Samuel Herd of the gb saying, what a good read this book is but emphasising it’s fiction and how it can be found in the Gilead library.

              So for me, I’ll give that book a miss. It definitely won’t be on my book list as I stay away from anything to do with demons. It’s bad enough battling with some horrid people in this world but it’s much worse being up against the ‘Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places’. Eph6:12 New American Standard.

              Also, I do not read anything by the WTBS, not any of their literature nor do I visit their website as for me it’s all about Trust and that Trust was broken when I found out about that religion’s history, the lies, the high control over its members, the rampant paedophilia, the deceit, fingers in all sort of ‘pies’, sitting on billions whilst still looking for more money from its members, ‘old light’ ‘new light’, overlapping generations (laughable), etc. So no, I don’t go there as its all tainted very much like all of organised Christian orgs worldwide. I’m following the the Christ and reading the Bible where THE Truth is to be found in a world of deceit & lies.

            • Giuseppe
          • Arvid Fløysand

            Yes Beverly…this is what it is all about…heaven and earth will be united in Christ.
            Devisions and splitting up is the work of the Devil…
            Jehova the great loving father will unite all by his son Christ Jesus …
            Only love can protect us from the evil spirit of devision and hate …
            The evil spirit is so strong and dangerous that it even made the apostles start an argue on the last supper about who was the greatest of them…the loving lesson Jesus then gave them about to be a humble and caring person is even more important now…its written for us…we are the weak and the hurt people that are scattered around all over the place…the great sheperd really care for us and he is the one who unite us all in one shepfold…he will heal us and protect us from the wolfes who used to bite,hurt and scatter us….the power of love is the key 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yes, Arvid, as a skilled strategist, the Devil employs the war technique of divide and conquer. Divisions create disharmony, hate, chaos, distinctions etc, etc.

              I believe that Jesus is coming back in his spectacular parousia where every eye will see him and he will establish the Kingdom on a purified earth. I never forgot when you emphasised the point about Jacobs Ladder and how In the future Heaven and Earth will be inter-connected pictured by the Angels ascending and descending. Gen28:12. You told me that in one of your posts many months ago and it stayed with me and I mentioned it to another Christian Witness when we discussed the Kingdom. I could be wrong about this point but the Kingdom being established here on the earth reminds me of how the Heavenly Father was actively involved with Adam and Eve when he walked about in the Garden in the breezy part of the day. Gen3:8.

              And yes, you’re so right in saying how the Great Shepherd wants to unite all of the Heavenly Father’s Sheep in one sheepfold without divisions and distinctions.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Arvid Fløysand asked “Where will the Kingdom be in the future?..
          The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever. Revelation 11:15. Read more>
          https://www.jw.org/en/publi

          Arvid Fløysand asked “What is the product of the vine that Jesus will drink new ?
          Jehovah Has Become King – Introduction
          Ex cerpt:
          That is what the parousia is —that Greek word being defined as “being alongside.” Their reclining at the table and Christ ministering to them is something extraordinary —evoking the last evening Jesus spent with his disciples before his death, when he passed the bread and the cup among them and girded himself as a servant and washed their feet. It was on that occasion when Christ said to them: “I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”
          Some may assume “that day” when Christ shares the cup again with his disciples is when they are joined together in heaven. But that is not the case for those who are alive when he comes, as is evident from the passage cited in the 12th chapter of Luke, which connects the original evening meal and the climactic parousia.
          Their sharing the cup of union with Jesus in the Kingdom means that those anointed disciples will be sealed —assured of their place in the Kingdom.
          That is when the “righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father” —even while still on earth. This is the phenomenon about which Paul wrote in the eighth chapter of Romans regarding the revealing of the sons of God. Read more>
          https://e-watchman.com/jeho

          Arvid Fløysand asked” Do this vine that Jesus will drink new in the Kingdom have something to do with the memorial?

          Who Should Partake of the Memorial Emblems?
          Exserpt:
          But what did Jesus mean when he said: “I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”
          The “blood of the covenant” represented by the red wine is intended to make it possible for God to declare sinless those who are party to the covenant, thereby opening the way for them to enter into the marriage of the Lamb. Their being declared sinless is more than just being forgiven. They are considered perfect. So, that is why Jesus said he would not drink wine again until he drinks it with them in the Kingdom. Here is what is stated in the 19th chapter of Revelation: “Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.””
          Notice, please, that the marriage of the Lamb is an exclusive, invitation only affair and those participating in the event are said to be “invited to the evening meal.” So, that is when Jesus will drink the wine of exaltation with them then, when Jehovah’s purpose to create a Kingdom of Christ and 144,000 is complete and goes into operation. That will indeed be a time of great joy.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/part
          Illustration of the true vine 15:1-10.
          I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator.
          Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publi

          • Arvid Fløysand

            Who is invited to the wedding?

      • Andres Felipe

        Hola hermano: creo que si he tenido en cuenta las escrituras. Primero, la palabra pacto no aparece en el griego original en Lucas 22:29, así que la cena del señor no tenia nada que ver con un supuesto pacto hecho entre Jesús y los ungidos. Segundo:siempre me he preguntado si la ley es una sombra de la realidad que pertenece a cristo : que significa el hecho de que la pascua era una celebración donde todo el pueblo de Israel participaba, incluidos los extranjeros? Tercero : no hay nada en las escrituras que indique que Jesús o los apóstoles animarán a ser amigos de Dios. Sea que nuestra herencia sea celestial o terrenal, eso solo lo decide jehova. Nuestra labor es obedecer una orden clara y sin ambigüedades del señor jesucristo a nosotros :” sigan haciendo ESTO en memoria de mí, recuerda: los emblemas no deberían servir para identificar a los ungidos dentro del pueblo de Dios. Lo emblemas son una representación del cuerpo y la sangre de cristo .y tenemos que participar Hasta que él llegue, no Hasta que el último ungido muera

      • Andres Felipe

        Traducción de Google :
        Muy buen punto querido hermano, estoy pensando en ello para darte una respuesta adecuada con las escrituras. Por ahora piensa que no tenemos un derecho a participar de los emblemas.es un deber ,ya que es un mandato directo del señor jesucristo. No es si somos o no somos ungidos. Eso no es importante. La obediencia a un mandato directo de cristo es mas impresionante .piensa : si Jesús hubiera querido que solo unos pocos participarán de los emblemas ,no lo hubiera dicho ? Hubiera dejado que su mandato fuera algo de interpretación? Porque el apostol pablo dijo que los ungidos pueden ser indignos de participar también?

        • Richard Long

          to all: Google Translation :
          Very good point dear brother, I am thinking of it to give you an adequate answer with the scriptures. For now think that we do not have a right to participate in the emblemas.es.es a duty, since it is a direct mandate of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not whether or not we are anointed. That’s not important. Obedience to a direct command of Christ is more impressive. If Jesus had wanted only a few to participate in the emblems, would he not have said it? Would he have allowed his mandate to be interpreted? Because the apostle Paul said that anointed ones can be unworthy to participate too?

        • Bklyn Kevin

          please take note that Jesus reclined at the table with the 12 apostles and not the great crowd or anybody else for that matter.
          Matthew 26:20 When evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples.
          Luke 22:14 So when the hour came, he reclined at the table along with the apostles.
          Understanding what the “New Covenant”Is and who it IS It specifically directed at

          THE HOLY SCRIPTURES (2013 REVISION
          The First to the Corinthians
          11: 25 -B “This cup means the “new covenant” by virtue of my blood.
          Now ask your self this question “is everybody a part of this “new covenant”? then read below.
          Jeremiah 31:31
          31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a “new covenant.”
          Hebrews 8:8
          8 For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah,* ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a
          “new covenant”.
          Hebrews 9:15
          15 That is why he is a mediator of a “new covenant,” in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
          WHAT inheritance???
          Romans 8:17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together
          Revelation 3:21
          21 To the one who conquers+ I will grant to sit down with me on my throne,+ just as I conquered and sat down+ with my Father on his throne.
          Hebrews 12:24
          24 and Jesus the mediator of a new “covenant”, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood
          Whoever Drinks this Cup…. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/whoever-drinks-this-cup/
          Read a lot more> Search results for: new covenant. https://e-watchman.com/?s=+new+covenant

        • Bklyn Kevin

          please take no Jesus reclined at the table with the 12 thapostles and not the great crowd or anybody else for that matter.
          Matthew 26:20 When evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples.
          Luke 22:14 So when the hour came, he reclined at the table along with the apostles.

          Understanding the “New Covenant” and who it Is specifically directed at.

          THE HOLY SCRIPTURES (2013 REVISION
          The First to the Corinthians
          11: 25 -B “This cup means the “new covenant” by virtue of my blood.
          Now ask your self this question “is everybody a part of this “new covenant”? then read below.

          Jeremiah 31:31
          Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a “new covenant.”

          Hebrews 8:8
          For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah,* ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a
          “new covenant”.

          Hebrews 9:15
          That is why he is a mediator of a “new covenant,” in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
          WHAT inheritance???
          Romans 8:17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together

          Revelation 3:21
          To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

          Hebrews 12:24
          and Jesus the mediator of a new “covenant”, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood
          Whoever Drinks this Cup…. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/whoever-drinks-this-cup/

          Read a lot more> Search results for: new covenant. https://e-watchman.com/?

          • Andres Felipe

            Google Translation

            Thanks Kevin, there are many missing links that do not have clear answers and unfortunately are subject to private interpretation of the scriptures: for example: do I have to think that Luke 22:20 only applies to anointed ones? If so, was the blood of Christ shed only for them? Or even for those who are not anointed? if by agreement you mean Luke 22:29 you should know that this translation is wrong, since the Greek word for “covenant” is not found in the original text …. Now, the covenant of the law was a leftover from the realities of Christ, I ask: who were included in the covenant of the law? It was both Jewish and non-Jewish proselytes who were in it; Was the covenant of the law better than the new covenant? Should not the law of Christ be better? Being in the new covenant puts before everyone the responsibility to fulfill the law of Christ otherwise, how can we receive the blessings that bring the benefits of his sacrifice ?, the children are the only ones who inherit from their parents the goods they own , the anointed ones will have celestial inheritance and the subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth … we can inherit something of our lord if we do not have a pact with him? They are thoughts that I have always had brother Kevin but by our attachment to men we are silent … of course comments like yours can correct my thinking if I find that should be so. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments. A hug very affectionate from Colombia.

            • Daisy

              Thanks for that Andres. You write in a comforting way… I see your viewpoint… as it’s answered a question I’ve had about us earthly ones.
              Seems to me that the 144k in the Jw.org house of god and the 144k in the 7th Day Adventists house of god are going to have to arm wrestle that riddle out.
              Best wishes from sunny September day in u.k Daisy…

    • Beverly kenyon

      Very True Andres. Much Christian Love to you & your Family.

    • e.v.g

      Los emblemas son exclusivos de los escogidos, que dijo el apostol pablo en 1Corintios 11:27-29? Jesus vino principalmente a cumplir un proposito con aquellos que serian ungidos por espiritu santo o que tendrian una esperanza celestial, ellos son los que participan de los emblemas, los evangelios y las cartas apostolicas tienen un mensaje principal para los que tienen esta esperanza. Aunque todos nos podemos beneficiar de esto.

      • Richard Long

        But, has the question of who are the “elect” been satisfactorily answered for you? Do we make this decision based on scripture or the teachings of men? And, which man? Russell or Rutherford? Is it not true that every teaching of these two men in all their contrasting forms, were borne of the common delusion that the parousia had already begun and their attempts to fit events into their “understanding”?

        Maybe we just ask Andres to expand on his thoughts and develop his scriptural line of reasoning?

        • e.v.g

          Well, I am happy with those with a heavenly hope, that give me a guarantee that God will do what is written in the bible. Some people are disgusted with Russell or Rutherford or the org. but I think that these people or things gave us the basic doctrines or whatever. Lets be realistac.

          • Richard Long

            Specifically, the message from Russell was that all should partake because all were called, but even the Russell of 1874 and the Russell of 1914 were vastly different teachers, and all that under the delusion of the “imminent” conclusion of the system of things and that “bible study aids” could replace reading the bible for his adherents.

            Realism dictates that one should at least be willing to examine the circumstances of Rutherford’s “new light” absent the JW apologetics, given it was produced under the same delusions. Hint: It WASNT Holy Spirit!

            • e.v.g

              I can’t understand specifically how the holy spirit is working in the org. But probably has to do with knowledge or understanding , similar to how is working the message of this website. Russell was spiritually a kid, we can not blame Russell from their ignorance in some respects, God gave to Rutherford the necessary understanding, all the rest belonged from their strong desire for watching the prophecies completed

            • Richard Long

              I don’t blame Russell or Rutherford (or Knorr of Franz, or Henschel, or the GB) for anything anymore. I blame myself for believing lies taught by men in direct contradiction to scripture. It’s just my opinion, but it seems to me there cannot be enough truth to make up for the lies.

              I am no teacher, but we are all told point blank and without equivocation what the fruit of the spirit looks like:

              Gal 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage+ of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness,+ faith, 23 mildness, self-control.+ Against such things there is no law.+

              and what its opposite looks like:

              Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest,+ and they are fornication,*+ uncleanness,* loose conduct,*+ 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism,*+ enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects,* 21 envies, drunken+ bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice+ such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.+

              If you can honestly see our JW religion helping to produce individuals bearing the fruitage of the spirit THAT AREN’T EITHER LEAVING OR DISSENTING IN SECRET, then peace be with you.

              Without, doubt, though, if we are following the GB, we are absolutely preaching a different good news than the apostles.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That is an interesting point, who to blame, wether to take responsibility for your own actions or blame yourself. Though if there is to be a teacher, there also has to be a truth in this scenario. As the bible points out, those claiming to be these teachers bear a responsibility to relay the message in truth for if they do not, then they themselves become blood guilty. On the believers part, they bear the punishment of complicity in that lie, be that the ultimate sanction or ‘many/few strokes, because they will ultimately be faced with an indisputable revelation of fact and have to make their choice. Would all this be necessary were it not foretold that we would be deceived? In fact, the deception in terms of providing the choice between God and man is vital to the ultimate determination of mind, in whom to serve. Can it be our fault that it was predestined to be so?

              There is a thin line to this question. Adam blamed the provision of Jehovah for his deception. ‘The woman you gave me….’ But Eve was also deceived, and the result on the deciever was death, but the outcome became one of choice to serve, and to allow Satan to make his point. For Satan to make his point, mankind had to be given the choice. While we were deceived, did we knowingly have that choice?

              The guilt that is to be borne personally, comes I believe when the individual is faced with both the truth and the lie. Is it our fault for believing what we believe with honesty of heart, on examination of the scriptures as they are taught to us with seeming honesty, and to believe such? At some point, we have to believe, else why the miracles of Jesus; and for those that still doubted, the appearance of his very wounds? Why the test of blindness? The title of blame belongs to those who seek to deceive, and to those who choose to allow their very heart to deceive them with an excuse.

              I think it fair to say that I blame the watchtower for my deceit, but now that I have the essence of truth to the extent that I am allowed to, I take responsibility for myself. Adam could have done that too, because he had the truth in full from Jehovah. ‘In the day you take of that fruit, you will die.’ He willingly followed his wife, knowing the truth. We did not have that certainty when we followed our wife, the watchtower. But we do now. I too thought I knew the scripture, but when I realised I did not, I made the change. That this must be so is written in scripture where it tells the faithful to ‘get out of her my people lest you share in her sins.’ What are her sins? Deceit. I guess the same illustration is given in jehovahs attitude to marriage. Death and unfaithfulness are the only issues that break the marriage bind. Thus He apportions blame on the cheater in an everlasting, irreversible severance.

            • Richard Long

              Then I amend my statement to “I take responsibility for…”

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hello Richard 🙂
              The organisation is in heaven and has alwayes been.
              For a short while there was a small organisation on earth…it failed.
              That little earthly organisation was over and done with when Jesus died…
              thats why the garment between the holy and the most holy split in two.

              Since then the organisation has been lokated in heaven…not until Jehovah will unite heaven and earth by his King Christ Jesus,,then all will be in the same organisation.

              Then we may ask…who has organised Jehovah`s people on earth in these 2000 years..and spesially the last 100 years?
              What about the fantastic preatching-work done by Jehovah`s Witness and all the littereature printed and so on?

              Do we have faith?

              We are typical humans…it is hard for us to see with the spiritual eyes….yes ..
              everything that is pure and clean is directed by the only true organisation…the heavenly

              If we start to trust ore lean on manmade organisations…ore to belive in manmade org….then the problems start…the mistakes …proud leaders who belive in their own power ore ability to rule over other men…thats from the Evil.

              For 2000 years and spesially the last 100…men and group of men has been decived to belive in their own ability to make an org. of their own and call it Gods ore Jehovah`s org.
              They have tryed over and over again to gain full control of Jehovah`s people…
              But the one who really organise his people is Jehovah,no matter if some manmade org.take credit for it…

              Moses once did that big mistake to take credit for a miracle that would never be possible by himself as an man leading an earthly org.

              For the moment…satan is the ruler of the whole world.
              We belong to and are led by the heavenly org. by faith…and if we use our spiritual eyes…then we are able to see tru and beond all manmade org.and see the true org. behind.(2 King.6:17)

            • Daisy

              POW!!!

              “Now if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he is NOT his”

              Could a ‘spiritual’ body be a body filled/governed by holy spirit as opposed to a spirit body – (rhetorical)

            • e.v.g

              Russell and all that high stature men are dead now, even those who stumbled with their attitude or teachings are dead now too. The org. are being influenced by beast-like men since the beginning, the bible says that these men wont have spirituallity, they have a similar attitude like the pharisees, Jesus said that the pharisees were agreed the murder of the prophets, the modern leadership of the org. fulfill the prophecie in jude 16 because if that men were wrong, these men still teaching those absurd ideas. They will become killers in the future, because the ignorance of those men, but the current leadership of the org. are not in ignorance.

            • Richard Long

              just to be sure I get your intended meaning…

              “but the current leadership of the org. are not in ignorance.”

              is this an excusing or an accusing?

            • e.v.g

              I am sure that they are knowing about the falsity of some Russell and Rutherford teachings, i am accussing them for being dishonest with all JW’s.

            • Huldah

              Jehovah blames those men.
              Matthew 18:
              6 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.+

              7 “Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes!

              I’m not for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

              Jesus did throw the money changers out of the temple, but he did not completely reject the temple until Jehovah’s time.
              Instead, he “wept” over its forthcoming demise because he knew the lost potential and the former good. He also knew that the apostasy was foretold and had come so far there was no going back anymore. JWs are there now too, but they are just fulfilling prophecy. No big surprise another one of Jehovah’s true organizations apostasized.

            • Richard Long

              Using the reasoning you have laid out, one might constitute the following guideline, remembering, of course that I am no teacher:

              Institutions are all inevitably corrupted. While in the process of becoming corrupted, corrective action may be taken. When corruption has taken control, the Institution is no longer capable of reform, and must be either abandoned or destroyed.

              The heart of this discussion is the article which answers the mailer’s assertion that all should partake of the emblems, and does so along the JW party line. The line of a demonstrably non-reformable corrupted institution. I’m suggesting we all might benefit from an in-depth PERSONAL exegetic research on the subject absent the eisegetic methodology of the WT. You already know where to examine the findings of some already having done this who hold as valid a claim to invitation as does the author of this article.

            • Huldah

              Okay I see. I’ve just got tunnel vision. My interest along these lines is mainly in who really is anointed, how, when? I feel this has practical value for my life and the issues I’m facing.

              Partaking of the emblems or not, where or when. It seems a moot point that we would HAVE to do it within a KH. Harold King didn’t. Ray didn’t. Robert doesn’t. If you feel you should, follow the guidelines and do it wherever you like.

              For some reason my mind wants to break on in a few lines from “Green Eggs and Ham”
              I’m going to indulge it…

              WOULD YOU? COULD YOU? IN A CAR?
              EAT THEM! EAT THEM! HERE THEY ARE.

              I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, IN A CAR.

              YOU MAY LIKE THEM. YOU WILL SEE.
              YOU MAY LIKE THEM IN A TREE!

              I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT IN A TREE.
              NOT IN A CAR! YOU LET ME BE.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A BOX.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A FOX.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A HOUSE.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A MOUSE.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
              I DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE……

              Okay, I feel better now. As I told Burt, yesterday, I’m weird. And I think I’ve been
              teaching too much Kindergarten.

              At least you won’t forget where I stand on that issue.

              I am actively reading all I can to look into the subject of the heavenly calling and
              who truly is anointed. I see things very different than I did just a little while ago.

            • Richard Long

              Please don’t think that I’m in any way criticizing you. And my deepest apologies if my words had that effect. I am, albeit perhaps poorly, very much trying to encourage the exploration you are currently undertaking while trying very hard to NOT presume to lead you anywhere in particular. My efforts are to provide confirmation that your doubts about where you have been are absolutely reasonable and resolving these doubts for yourself through prayers and research at your own sincere pace without any of us pushing you in any direction. You have told me before that you have had brushes with Holy Spirit before. Ask for more and let that one continue directing you. I do not consider myself worthy of the emblems, but am also expanding my research on the topic of the Christian calling. Sorry to offend, blessings to you.

            • Huldah

              I thought I was being a bit too pushy and facetious.
              No offense at all taken.

              I appreciate your concern, your never failing humility and compassion for others.

              I take you most seriously because you display these rare qualities so approved by Christ.
              And, of course, you also have understanding and the ability to convey it, even if you think you don’t.

              You can always contact me at elihusnyder@gmail.com
              if you have anything you want to direct just to me.

              I’m not sentimentally connected to JWs, but I see the scriptural pattern that applies to them in their deplorable state.
              I know there was corruption from the outset and no longer believe that many central leaders ever ended up approved by Jehovah. I strongly believe they fit the exact pattern of Saul and Solomon.
              Starting out humble, but allowing power and ease to corrupt them.

              My experience with the Bible has been one of truly walking with God and being subject to the extreme experiences of one who walks with God . All the while, having the scriptures work with those experiences as they shed light on their true meaning. I truly believe that the Bible has been to me like a language that one can only learn when immersed in the culture of the native land. JWs are not that land. They are perhaps the imperfect tutor in that land. The land is living the life of full focus and willing sacrifice even self denial to please God, even in a corrupt system, following not men but the leadings of HS, the Bible and the examples of real men of faith in it. I admit, even I think this sounds crazy to say.

              If my eyes are being opened to misconceptions and misleadings then it has to do with the same thing the apostles underwent regarding Christ and the kingdom and the Jewish temple. I don’t think I have been wholly misled by the HS but misguided partly by men. It doesn’t lessen my basis in the truth.

              I respect this language that I have earned through blood sweat and profuse tears. It bears heavily on what I accept as truth. I can’t fully explain what I see because it is as impossible as explaining a language.

              I am simply laying out that I have a strong foundation for evaluating truth, even though I have been deceived.

              I am willing to work with others to root out my remaining misconceptions.
              However, the JW org fits in with this language that I have learned. It fits the pattern of the prophets, the Jews and the apostles.
              The confusion, the oppression, the misleadings, the arrogance, the trials brought upon the lowly ones only all the more make it the antitype of ancient Jerusalem.

              Matthew 10
              34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword.+

              Matthew 16
              24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.+ 25 For whoever wants to save his life* will lose it, but whoever loses his life* for my sake will find it.+

              1Peter 4
              12 Beloved ones, do not be surprised about the fiery trials that you are experiencing,+ as though something strange were happening to you. 13 On the contrary, go on rejoicing+ over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ,+ so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.+

              Psalm 66
              10 For you have examined us, O God;+

              As silver is refined, so you have refined us.

              11 You brought us into a hunting net;

              You put a crushing burden upon us.*

              12 You allowed mortal man to ride over us;*

              We came through fire and through water;

              Then you brought us to a place of relief.

              Is 53:10

              Holman Christian Standard Bible

              Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely

              AND
              Matthew 10
              38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake* and follow after me is not worthy of me.+

              Is the corruption inside the JW organization our torture stake? Yes
              Does Jehovah take delight in leading us to follow in the footsteps if his son by allowing it to crush us for the purpose of our refinement ? Yes he does.
              Was this foretold to occur? Absolutely

              Hope my ramblings apply in some way to the point of our conversation. Lol
              Perhaps I assumed too much in how I wrote here, but at least you have more insight into my perspective on the “truth”.
              I hope what I wrote is of some value or use to you.

              Thanks for your considerate reply.
              Blessings to you and your family too!

          • Huldah

            I do believe Jeh used the organization to found the truth.
            I also believe power corrupts and those men allowed power to corrupt them as has the org.
            The same thing happened to Judaism right after the Mosaic law was insituted.

            Jehovah said to the Israelites, “Was it to me that you were sacrificing in the wilderness?” He knew their hearts were still with the Gods of Egypt. Many chieftains rebelled early on.

            It’s not sitting right with me anymore. This anointing based on the timing of your birth. I think anointing is for those who demonstrate absolute loyalty to Jehovah and learn qualities they can use to be loving kings and judges. I don’t gather that Rutherford received that training through the fire of a refiner. I’m not seeing that in the GB today. I know a lot of lowly ones who qualify better to sit as humble compassionate Christlike kings in heaven.

            The cup of a lowly carpenter is not the scepter of a king here on the earth, but only in heaven. His most noteworthy possession on earth is the torture stake he carries. This is the hallmark of one of Christ’s true brothers. The torture stake of a well trained king.
            One like David not Solomon.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Richard Long SAID” Is it not true that every teaching of these two men in all their contrasting forms, were borne of the common delusion that the Parousia had already begun and their attempts to fit events into their “understanding”?.

          No not every teaching of these two men were borne of the the delusion that the Parousia had already begun in fact according to the bible concerning the 1914 delusion these two men were fulfilling bible prophecy infact they were under the deluding influence according to the Apostle Paul. Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-thessalonians/2/#v53002011

          But nonetheless they certainly did pushed ahead with the basic truths.

          Jehovah’s Witnesses and the city of Jerusalem.
          Excerpt:
          Although there may have been a few scattered anointed individuals during the long night of spiritual darkness, prior to the late 1800’s none were successful in completely breaking free from Christendom’s spiritual shackles.

          During the period of the Inquisitions the clergy often burned at the stake any who dared. Even in the New World, originally settled by people seeking relief from religious oppression, the clergy still wielded great power and political influence.
          After centuries of domination by Satan’s counterfeit Christianity, as a result of the work of Pastor Russell, as he was then called, a recognizable form of primitive Christianity reemerged. And honest hearted people responded.

          The Bible Students regularly met in private homes, just like the original Christians.

          Also, they all engaged in a public ministry and boldly exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day, just like the original Christians did.

          They also clearly knew the distinction between Jehovah and Jesus, just like the original Christians.

          They also began to observe the annual memorial of Jesus’ death, just like the original Christians.

          Jehovah’s spirit was obviously invigorating and anointing that vibrant little band of Bible Students, just as it had the original Christians.

          • Richard Long

            Kevin, please notice that I wrote “every teaching of these two men…”. .
            The basic truths Russell and company “pushed ahead with” were not original or unique to Russell et.al., but he teachings of Jesus, the Apostles, and other bible writers and are, by definition, not included in “every teaching of these two men”

            As for all of the “new light” from either man, I’ll leave the JW apologetics to others, as my hours are consumed with sorting out the truth from the lies.

            Peace be on your house, Kevin. Your love for Jehovah is evident.

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Look at the contekst …the bread and wine should be eaten with respect and in remembrance of Jesus.
        Many of those in Corint made a feast out of it …1 Cor.11:20 “When you come together in one place,it is not really to eat the Lords evening meal.For when you eat it,each one takes his own evening meal beforehand,so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated.Do you not have houses for eating and drinking?

        They ate and drank without having Jesus in mind…it was as Paul said.:”not really to eat the Lords evening meal…”
        They did it in a unworthy way …to behave like they where in a party,stuffing themselves and even get drunk…and making those who had nothing feel ashamed and unworthy.

        Those people turned the Lords evening meal into a feast where they put their own ego in focus….look at me…i am welthy and rich…i can eat and drink til i get drunk…what do you have?…nothing! ha..you are not worthy…shame on you.

        With a behaviour like that,they ate and drank in a unworthy way.
        The same goes for those who continued to eat the passover-meal just like they used to do according to the old covenant…that would be to eat and drink in a unworthy way…they would eat and drink themselves to death….because the old covenant could not provide life..
        and in that way they would not respect Jesus who is the mediator of the new covenant..

        Jesus came to pay the ransom…If Adam never had sinned…he would be the forfather of all of us.

        Jesus is the second “Adam”…= with the ransom…he bought back that lost right to be the forfather….to whom?….all of us

        What about Eve?

        The second “Adam” also need a “wife”…Jehovah made a wife for the first Adam…He will do the same for the second “Adam”

        This “Eve” is the bride…144000 annointed and adopted ones…chosen…by what?
        By Holy spirit.
        Do we know who and where they are?
        If it is those who partake of the emblems,it should be easy to find them….:-)
        But its not…they are hidden..

        • e.v.g

          I agree with you, but Jesus made the partake with those that he choose for a heavenly kingdom. Only those who have a heavenly hope and a covenant with God through Jesus Christ, can take the wine and bread

          • Huldah

            Actually, I believed the way you do just two weeks ago, but my eyes were gradually opened to some inconsistencies. What Arvid is presenting is actually more in line with the truth from the Bible, unfettered by WT traditions that tend to glorify certain men above others.

            Open your mind and prove to yourself through HS and scripture the real truth. Your friends here can help too.

            I’m still putting together the full picture myself, but it’s coming out beautifully so far.

            Don’t give up on the foundation WT gave you, but grow up on your own foundation laid firmly and rooted in the scriptures as a mature Christian has the right to do.

          • Arvid Fløysand

            The parttaking was not a new thing for the jews…they had done that since 1513 bc…
            What Jesus made exlusively with those that he choose for the heavenly kingdom was the covenant for the Kingdom…only the 144 000 choosen ones is direct part of the covenant…like a wedding covenant…they are the bride…they get the wedding “ring”…just like Abraham`s servant Elieser gave Rebekah a gold nose-ring and two bracelets of gold (remember that Elieser was foreshadowing the Holy spirit that Jesus likend with a servant that would be sendt from his Father…Jehovah…as a helper.That was exactley what happend on the day of pentecost…)

            who was chosen by the Holy spirit?
            Only those 11 ?
            If the criteria for beeing choosen was to eat the emblems,…then why was Cornelius and all of his household choosen in the same manner as those 120 …with a flame over their head?

            The ram that used to be sacrifised once a year under the old covenant represent Jesus sacrifise…was the rams blood ment to be exlusive only for the priests?
            No…the ram…its blood was for the whole people…to pay for their sins…

            What about the manna…the bread from heaven…that is to be likened with Jesus body…who should eat of it?
            only the priests?
            No…they all ate of it…ore else they would have no life…the manna was lifesaving and their life depended of that manna..(read Jesu own word about it in John 6:28-59)

            In Jesus wedding there is a holy covenant with his “bride” (144 000) and all who belive in him is invited to partake…those are the guests…Rev.7:13-17

            Like in all weddings…there are invited guests who partake in the meal…would be rude not to

            • sally

              Hi Arvid I really enjoy your posts and am glad you are back posting again 🙂 However I am trying to get my head around this and I do not think I agree with you regarding the manna from heaven being likened with Jesus body. I have read and re read John 6 a few times now and I just want to quote from certain verses. v. 48 “I am the bread of life.+ 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died.+ 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”+ The point is that they all ate the manna but they all still died. It was not the “bread” that represented Jesus body. It was bread to literally eat so they would not die of hunger at that time. Whereas Jesus himself is the ever lasting life giving bread that came down from heaven – two very seperate things. If the bread broken and ate as representation of Jesus blood is meant for all to do, I don’t know for sure right now. The jury is out so to speak for me. I am still working on understanding it.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hi Sally
              The manna foreshaddowed Jesu “bread” of life
              just like the old covenant foreshaddowed the new covenant.

              the case is that what the first bread and the first covenant could not provide…namley eternal life and the total solution of the sin…
              that is what the true bread of jesus body/life could provide together with the new and better covenant

              All things connected to the old covenant was only a shaddow of what was ment to come later….

              I was not trying to say that the manna was the same as the true bread from heaven (Jesus)
              But indeed it was a miracle provided by Jehovah to keep his chosen people alive.And by doing so He gave them a glimpse of the greater miracle by providing the true bread that means eternal life for all those who “eat”it…:-)

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Whoever Drinks this Cup….
              Excerpt:
              Satan has always sought to diminish the wondrous generosity of Jehovah’s adopting many sons and ultimately endowing them with the gift of immortality. According to the nearly all-pervasive teachings of Christendom, going to heaven is commonplace —it is more or less everyone’s birthright. And supposedly everyone has an immortal soul anyway. No big deal.

              But even among Jehovah’s Witnesses there is a submerged sect who promote the idea that the Watchtower is practicing a dark satanic ritual by passing the cup and bread among persons who have been told they are not entitled to partake of the blood of Jesus. It is their erroneous contention that the new covenant is between God and all Christians.

              But such is not the case. Those persons are mere pretenders who are acting under the influence of the phony angel of light. Obviously, Satan’s intention is to induce persons to partake who may not be entitled. Paul specifically warned that anyone doing so will be guilty of violating what is sacred.

              Those who may be swayed by the deceivers should consider this: Christ’s ransom sacrifice has the purchasing power to buy all of Adam’s offspring —including the dead. That means billions of persons will be redeemed from death to live again on this earth. And the vast majority who have lived and died were unrighteous in God’s eyes. Some even outright enemies and haters of God. They do not have to acknowledge God in anyway in order to receive the resurrection of judgment, much less drink from the cup of holy union. Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/whoever-drinks-this-cup/

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, this explanation is so Fantastic. Love it loads! Yeah, would be very rude to invite guests and have them pass the ‘meal’ around, rejecting it in effect. In that case, shouldn’t the ‘bridegroom & bride’ just sit at the ‘top table’ and eat the meal whilst the guests look on without going through the ritual of rejecting the meal.

              The Jews told Jesus that God gave them manna in the desert in the wandering and Jesus told them to ask for the true bread from heaven that gives life. They asked him for that bread and Jesus says, ‘I am the bread of life, whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst’. Jesus is really saying, he us essential for life. John6:35

              Jesus also said, ‘Do not labour for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you’. John6:27

              Jesus is the Bread that brings eternal life.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Food for thought.

              Whoever Drinks this Cup…
              https://e-watchman.com/whoever-drinks-this-cup/

        • Huldah

          Excellent Arvid. I too read that chapter and came to the same conclusion.
          Look at CONTEXT.

          They were “unworthy” because of gluttony and disrespect.

          Truly, if we are going to cling to the WT teaching on this, weren’t all early Christians anointed by default according to WT?
          Who back then would have been unworthy by that definition? There was no “earthly class” to warn against partaking unworthily.

          Incidentally my comments are not showing. I made one here already. It’s gone.

          • Richard Long

            you have to make sure that you beat on the “show more comments” bar at the bottom every time you refresh. The blog only shows “x” amount or tie s on each thread by default. You have to dig for the rest or use the “sort by newest” feature at the top. Also, there is a lag as the disqus overlay synchronizes.

      • Andres Felipe

        hello my sister: the letter to the Corinthians shows that even the anointed ones could arrive to b…
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        Comentarios
        Cambiar a españolhello my sister: the letter to the Corinthians shows that even the anointed ones could arrive to be unworthy to participate in the emblems. but what was the problem? because the apostle would say something like that? I ask you: if the letters of the apostles were written from a point of view for the anointed, why does the apostle Paul tell them that it must first be examined under scrutiny “(1 Cor 11:28), and verse 30 says that the problem of being unworthy, was not whether or not they were anointed, but in the spiritual ability to discern the meaning of the body of Christ.Another problem was that the Christians did not respect the Lord’s supper as they came full of their homes for the purpose not to join his brothers, while others came drunk at dinner … do you think that did not make them unworthy to participate in the dinner? of course if they were not appreciating the meeting with their brothers or the meaning of dinner the Lord … so if you realize, nothing had to do with whether or not they were anointed, and it was so because the Lord’s dinner has nothing to do with them … everything is for the sacrifice of Christ ..

        • Beverly kenyon

          Wow, Andres, that is beautifully explained and yes you’re right, they were using the Lord’s Supper as an occasion to socialise and not respecting the solemnity of meeting together to remember the sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

          The “other sheep” being taught that doctrine of not partaking of the emblems reminds me of what Jesus said, ‘What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door if the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either’. Matt23:13 NLT

          Also when they do “bring someone into the truth” they make that one a subject of Gehenna. Jesus said, ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites because You traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one You make him a subject of Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves’. Matt23:15 NWT

          • Andres Felipe

            Creo que la watchtower ha hecho de la cena del señor una cena de desprecio al sacrificio de cristo. ..es lo peor que ha hecho el hombre del desafuero..

        • Daisy

          Jesus then said to them, “TRULY, ruly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven and gives life to the WORLD.”
          They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
          Jesus said to then, ” I am the bread of life; WHOEVER comes to me shall not hunger, and WHOEVER believes in me shall never thirst.
          But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
          All that the Father gives me will come to me and WHOEVER comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me”
          It was Bro. Russell’s teaching that there were two heavenly classes, 144k & GC.
          Rutherford separated the two into earthly/ heavenly.
          Confusion & error ensued based on an unscriptural teaching.
          Christ said nothing about two “classes”, one class partaking and the other not;
          John 6:47-58 “TRULY, truly I say to you, WHOEVER believes me has eternal life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die…”
          So, both emblems referring to the ransom sacrifice are God’s provision through Christ
          EACH of us who has faith in the ransom sacrifice and a hoping to gain life must share imo according to God’s s word.
          The March 26, 2013 tract I used to invite everyone to “the most important day of the year” had a picture of Jesus, hand outstretched under the heading; ONE MAN DIED FOR ALL” and “How does his death help us”?
          I suppose it doesn’t help us at all if we ignore him…as
          1. Christ is not our mediator
          2. Not in new covenant
          3. Not son/daughter of God yet we call him Father
          4. Not part of Christ’s body
          5. Not part of the congregation ( insight book)
          6. Not anointed with spirit
          7. Not part of God’s temple
          8. Not born again from above
          9. Not of the vine
          10. Not Abraham s seed
          11. Not a chosen one
          12. Not a holy one
          Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

          • Andres Felipe

            Lo has explicado de forma muy sencilla gracias

      • Andres Felipe

        Otra cosa : yo aprecio mucho al hermano Robert, y estoy muy agradecido con el porque él me devolvió mi fe y amor por jehova; creo que a muchos nos ha pasado lo mismo .sin embargo, no es bueno caer en la misma trampa en la que estábamos:seguir al hombre. Todos los que llegamos aquí porque estábamos decepcionados de las enseñanzas falsas de la organización y todos hemos tenido que re – examinar todas nuestras creencias. Robert mismo ha escrito que todo lo que el escribe Está sujeto al cambio y al examen y es humilde de su parte hacerlo así. Nosotros no podemos hacernos discípulos de robert y creo que eso es lo ultimo que él busca . En mi examen de las escrituras hebreas encontrado muchos puntos de vista y éste me parece más cercano a las escrituras. Pero al igual que Robert, todo esta sujeto a examen y escrutinio. Saludos

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