The First Resurrection on the Last Day

//The First Resurrection on the Last Day

QUESTION: At John 6:44 Jesus said no one can come to me unless the father draws him. The application always seems to be made by witnesses regarding that verse that it applies to all basically who become baptized witnesses or servants of Jehovah members of the other sheep. I have a hard time accepting that, for it seems to me that the verse applies more to the choosing of the holy ones, the anointed especially, when Jesus says in the verse he will raise them in the last day. Am I incorrect to think that that verse applies only to the anointed?

You are correct. Jesus was alluding to God’s choosing of those who will be with Christ. In context Jesus said: “All those whom the Father gives me will come to me, and I will never drive away the one who comes to me; for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.” —John 6:37-40

As we know, it is God’s will that virtually all who have lived and died —the righteous and the unrighteous, the godly and the godless —will be resurrected during the 1,000 year reign of the Kingdom. Jesus spoke of that resurrection in the 5th chapter of John, calling it a “resurrection of judgment” —not meaning they would necessarily be condemned, but I refer to it as probation. Unrighteous persons, multitudes of which never even heard of Jesus, let alone believed he was the Son of God or exercised faith in him, will be resurrected and given an opportunity to live forever —provided, of course, that they obey Christ as Lord.

And if they do, then they can acquire the sinless perfection God originally bestowed on Adam and Eve and continue living for an eternity after the thousand years have ended. (That is why Revelation 20:5 states that “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended,” in contrast with the first resurrection of the holy ones. It is not that they are physically resurrected after the 1,000 years have ended, but that they finally become sin free after successfully completing the probationary process of rehabilitation during the 1,000 years; hence, the dead coming to life means they are finally released from the condemnation of death due to inherited sin.)

But the point is, as regards the question —since virtually all will be resurrected and yet they did not necessarily recognize the Son or exercise faith prior to their deaths, those whom the Father draws to Jesus cannot be those who will receive an earthly resurrection.

Furthermore, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the vast majority anyway, have no expectation of receiving a resurrection, neither heavenly or earthly. Their hope is to never die at all, to survive the end of this world and be the nucleus of the world to come. So, even though they may be drawn to the truth, those who will ultimately make up the great crowd cannot be those whom Jesus will resurrect on the last day; hence, Jesus did not have the so-called other sheep in mind when he spoke of those whom his Father gives him. 

Besides, it would seem odd if Jesus was referring to the re-creation as the last day, would it not? Jesus used the expression “re-creation” in reference to the time when the Son of man sits down on his throne, joined by the 144,000. (Matthew 19:28) In other words, the new world. The evils of this present age will be gone, like after the passing of a terrible storm and the dawning of a new day. Yet in the 6th chapter of John Jesus repeatedly spoke of the resurrection on the last day. The question naturally arises, on the last day of what?

As already explained above, the rest of the dead do not literally come to life after the 1,000 years have ended. Besides, it would not seem appropriate to refer to the glorious re-creation of mankind as occurring on the last day. On the contrary, the re-creation is the first day of eternity. Reasonably, logically, the last day is in relation to this present, wicked system.

The apostle Paul was privileged to divulge the sacred secret that all of the holy ones will be resurrected during the presence of Christ. First, those dead in union with Christ will rise. That would include the apostles and all of the faithful ones from the first century. Also, the International Bible Students and those more recently among Jehovah’s Witnesses who were anointed, drawn to Christ, but who have passed into death, will be resurrected. Then, those who are living during the parousia who die will not sleep in death as do those who have died before the return of Christ, but they will be instantaneously changed from flesh to spirit in the twinkling of an eye.

Before Satan is locked in the abyss to begin the 1,000 year period of the re-creation all of the 144,000 will be united with Christ. Their resurrections will take place during the tumult of the conclusion of this system —during the last days. And, to be sure, the killing of the last living holy ones will take place at the very end of the last days, even as is indicated in the 11th chapter of Revelation regarding the deaths and resurrection of the two anointed witnesses after the 42 months.

With the foregoing in mind, it is quite appropriate that Jesus should speak of the resurrection that will occur in the last day —the first resurrection, that is. And of those who receive the first resurrection the last of the remaining holy ones will literally be called to “come up here” during the last day of the last days. Revelation indicates that as soon as the first resurrection is concluded, then “the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

2017-10-23T07:26:11+00:00 August 20th, 2017|Mailbag|174 Comments
  • Jamie Mac

    Lovely response to the question. That sentence ‘the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended’ is so misunderstood by Christendom. I have read some dreadful interpretations of that scripture. It makes perfect sense when you come to understand or at least grasp the meaning of what must shortly take place.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Too right. It makes it all clear. I find it very strengthening as this all comes together. It gives tangible truth to the phrase ‘you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.’

  • Marisa Gomez

    John 11:23 : Jesus said to her ” Your brother will rise”. 24: Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day”.
    Obviously Lazarus wasn’t an anointed,,,, why is that if only Anointe will rise on the last day?

    • “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”

      “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in cloud to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.”

      1-Thess 4:16-17
      1-Cor 15:52

      Matt 24:34 Rev 7:9;14

    • Mary and Martha were with Jesus a lot. She had probably heard Jesus speak on a prior occasion about those being resurrected on the last day; or, she could have heard what he said from one of the apostles or her brother, Lazarus. In any case, Martha was likely using the same expression Jesus had used to indicate to him that she believed him. Besides, at the time the Jews who were Jesus’ disciples knew nothing about the anointing. And because Jesus resurrected Lazarus, more than likely he was among the 120 who were the first anointed and so he will be resurrected in the last day. Of course, Martha had no way of knowing that.

      • Craig Knight

        For some reason that point you made about Lazarus being a part of those 120 who were anointed has escaped me all these years.. Jesus had a fondness for Lazarus and was very saddened at his death. What a wonderful gift Jesus gave to Lazarus to be among the chosen ones.

        • Brian

          Indeed but with the exception that it would have been God that “Chose him” and there is nothing stated that he went all of the way to his death holding onto the faith and “enduring to the end”, one would sure hope that he did though.

          • Craig Knight

            That’s a nice point. We can only hope He made it. If I were resurrected I think my faith would be so strong that nothing could break it. But I guess we will find out if we pass our tests and make it to the new system.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Does anyone know how long Lazarus lived after his resurrection?

          • There is no mention of Lazarus after he was resurrected by Jesus, except for the fact that the Jews hatched a plot to kill Lazarus along with Jesus. We don’t know if they were successful in Lazarus’ case. It seems unlikely since there is no mention in the Bible account. But since the death and resurrection of Lazarus took place toward the close of Jesus’ ministry, about the last week, and if Lazarus avoided being murdered, it is quite likely that he lived a few more weeks to the original outpouring of the spirit on Pentecost.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks. I had assumed he lived out a normal life span. I’m surprised it was probably only a few weeks. What would have happened to him if he was not murdered, and given the circumstances of his death, would it not have been a rather ‘heartless’ act on his family to resurrect him only for him to go again a few weeks later and for them to go through it all again? I suppose as the scripture is silent, all is conjecture, but what do you feel may have been the outcome? Maybe the family were aware the act was symbolic?

            • Daisy

              Don’t you worry one second about it Burt 🙂

          • Beverly kenyon

            Try punching in your question into Google.

          • Craig Knight

            I think of Lazarus on his death bed ready to die for the 2nd time. He was probably thinking “Hey, this is no big deal! I’ve done this before already.

            • Uh, on the other hand, did Lazarus experience the second death? lol

      • Marisa Gomez

        Thanks brother

  • Craig Knight

    I like how Robert put it – the so called other sheep. I think WT has misused that other sheep term implying that they are of the great crowd. The other sheep in context there were obviously the Gentiles who would be invited to the kingdom since the Jews rejected Christ.

    • Actually, that is not what I was implying. I think the other sheep are who the WT says they are.

      • Craig Knight

        John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. So are the anointed and those of the earthly hope considered to be one flock? I’m certainly in agreement that there is a great crowd. I always thought there were 2 flocks not just one.

        • Jachin

          Can someone explain the two flocks to me? As “the other sheep” reading the Bible with this understanding makes most of the Bible not applicable to me.
          I.e “Jesus is only mediator of the anointed”.

          • Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. The new covenant is between Jehovah and those who have been anointed into the “Israel of God.” The new covenant is concluded when Jesus returns to gather the chosen ones. Obviously, though, those who inherit the earth will remain. They are gathered to Christ too, those sheep are just in a different fold. Nor is it necessary that they have Christ as their mediator since their salvation does not depend upon them being made perfect.

            • Craig Knight

              Robert – The Bible says all mankind at 1 Tim 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity–the man Christ Jesus. Why does the Bible say all mankind or all humanity then? It seems like the Bible contradict’s itself here or maybe WT has it wrong again. I totally agree with everything you just said but the I think the Great Crowd to a lesser degree have Christ as our Mediator as I said before isn’t prayer thru Christ an example of Christ being everyone’s mediator? Just not in the complete sense as the anointed? Why would the Bible try to confuse us on this point? When the new system begins and just the Great Crowd are on the earth won’t the great Crowd need Jesus as our mediator until they are made perfect? Surely the great Crowd won’t be able to approach God directly until the 1000 years are ended. Won’t they need a mediator to approach Jehovah? I mean no disrespect to you but I just have these questions that have been bugging me for years. Thanks Robert.

            • Jachin

              Hey Craig, I have been having same and similar questions plaguing my mind. To my current understanding of scriptures
              Jesus as mediator legally mediates the terms that would solve God’s dispute with mankind and reconcile them back to a righteous standing.
              In the law covenant Proselytes could become circumcised to represent acceptance of the law covenant and partake in the Passover and receive full blessings as a member of Israel Exodus 12:48,49

              Throughout Israelite history non-Jews became proselytes, in effect saying about the Jews what Moabites Ruth said to Naomi: “Your people will be my people, and your God my God.” (Ru 1:16; Jos 6:25; Mt 1:5)
              Zechariah 8:23

              New covenant requires circumcision of the heart ( love of God and neighbor) in order to benefit from Jesus sacrifice and receive blessings. -Romans 2-10-29
              John 13:34, Galations 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21

              Isaiah 49:6 Ephesians 2:12- so to say only anointed under new covenant (new testament) is to say that all of the scriptures don’t apply to me personally and I am with out law and have no relationship with God and unable to benefit from the ransom. Hebrews 13:20 says this is an everlasting covenant so being perfect does not end when we are “made perfect” in fact we are made perfect my this covenant. Hebrews 10:14-18. So Jesus and his ransom sacrifice stands as mediator of all creation for eternity.

            • Craig Knight

              I think that Christ is everyone’s mediator. I do not agree with WT on this point. But Robert is correct that the New Covenant is for the anointed primarily but I still think that Christ is our go between for us and God. During the 1000 year reign those on earth still need a mediator don’t they? 1 Tim 2:5 says for all mankind. So I agree with you on that point.

            • I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what Jesus’ mediation is intended to accomplish. Obviously the masses of mankind who will be resurrected on earth will receive that benefit of the ransom without any mediation in their behalf on Jesus’ part.

            • Craig Knight

              Robert – Isn’t Christ mediator for all Christians when we pray thru his name to approach Jehovah? That’s what I thought a mediator does. He is our go between since we will still be unworthy to pray directly to Jehovah until after the 1000 years is over. Sometimes it feels like the 2 class arrangement makes the Great Crowd feel like 2nd hand citizens. I would have no problem if what you say is true. I would just be happy to be there. I agree we would be covered by the ransom but this mediator thing just sounds off to me. I wish there was a scripture to support that idea.

          • Craig Knight

            Hebrews 9:11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,and he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,c so that we may serve the living God!

            15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

            Jachin – As I understand it the New Covenant is made between Christ and the anointed ones only. But the Bible also says: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. I know the WT teaches that Jesus is only the mediator for the anointed. So the Bible says all mankind and the GB says just the anointed. The New Covenant is specifically for the Anointed ones and Christ is their mediator. However the Bible clearly says for ALL mankind. So my thoughts are that the Great Crowd have Christ as our mediator also. For example when we pray we have to approach Jehovah thru Jesus name. Isn’t that being a mediator for us. One thing I am sure of is that we are all covered under redemption by Jesus blood. Jesus is the Mediator of a new covenant with the anointed and the Great Crowd have him as our Mediator to a lesser degree but benefit from him as a go between for us and God. That makes sense to me or why would 1 Timothy say mankind??? That’s just how I see it since scripture cannot contradict itself.

          • Brian

            The “other sheep” are the ones that didn’t make the first cut but do and have their trust and faith in Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

    • Daisy

      One In Christ
      Eph 2:11-22
      Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in flesh in hands – remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
      But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
      For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the tree, thereby killing the hostility.
      And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
      For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
      So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
      In him you are also being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

      Referring to Gentiles like you and me Craig, who were first brought into the flock when Peter baptised Cornelius.

      The John 10:16 scripture complements to make things clear and simple.

      Wasn’t it the Judge in 1934 who brought in the Other Sheep doctrine. It began as a “revealed truth” published in two 1934 WT articles titled “His Kindness”…Aug 1&15 issues. And the foundation for the teaching is that the OS of the scripture you quoted, Jo 10:16 represented an anti typical fulfillment of the six cities of refuge and no scriptural proof nor clarification has been published since then.

      Enter “other sheep” into the WT library, and the ‘hits’ you get in the WT, going back to the 1950s and you will find no scriptural explanation as to why the GB believes the “other sheep” of Jo 10:16 refers to a non- anointed “class” of Christians who are not God’s “children ”

      Next, go to WT Index 1930-1985, look under the topic “Discussion” which is where articles explaining doctrines are referenced. There you will find only two articles describing the doctrine, but neither provides any scriptural proof.
      However, we learn this …from a Box in the November WT study edition:
      “Because the scriptures are silent regarding ANY ANTITYPICAL SIGNIFICANCE TO THE CITIES OF REFUGE this article and the next one emphasize instead the lessons Christians can learn from this arrangement”.

      All the above I was unaware of till I started digging, doubt if most Jws know the basis for the doctrine so thanks Craig.

      You mention that Gentiles were included in the kingdom since the Jews rejected Christ.
      Romans 11 teaches why as well …and that Jehovah never abandoned nor rejected them. Keep searching!
      Hope all the above makes sense 🙂

      • There is something both Ray Franz and the WT have overlooked regarding the “other sheep.” I’ll write an article on it later.

        • Easach L S of Coimbatore

          I am waiting for that article

      • Craig Knight

        Daisy – Great verses in Ephesians. It makes it very clear to me that the other sheep are indeed the Gentiles who would have the grand hope of becoming anointed along with the Jews. I took it upon myself to read the Bible all the way thru without WT’s ideas. When I read in John about the other sheep, I thought wow this is talking about the Gentiles. It’s very clear and simple like you say. Back in the 30’s Rutherford should have used the Revelation verses that speak of the Great Crowd to prove that there would be those who have the earthly hope. There were around 120,000 Bible students when WT scrambled to come up with some explanation in the 30″s. I think they messed up using the other sheep mentioned in John. Oh well nothing new there. I can’t think of any other religion besides WT who takes that Other sheep out of context like that. Everything I’ve read they say the same thing. Gentiles are the other sheep. And yes we are the Gentiles. Most of the Gentiles in modern times are earth bound. Jehovah still hasn’t gathered all of the 144,000 of course, so He is taking his time selecting them. But we know by the conditions in the world that the selecting is almost complete. Thanks for your input. Nice job!

        • Burt Reynolds

          Light dawns! I was still thinking of the great crowd and the other Sheep as one and the same. I don’t know where I picked that up from. I feel I must have been asleep the entire time I was in the watchtower!

          • Richard Long

            No, that is exactly what Rutherford was selling.

          • Craig Knight

            Burt – I’m a 3rd generation ex JW and since I was a kid this Other sheep idea has been talked about to the point that we just parrot it and believe it. WT has pushed that idea since the mid 30’s. The Bible supports a two class system still without that other sheep error.

            • Brian

              The “2 class” system really only comes about when the separation actually takes place when Jesus does the actual separation of the “wheat/weeds, fish and sheep/goats. This is why the JW’s ran with it all of those years ago, they thought the kingdom had arrived so it would be the case, and they are right in that it would take place after Jesus arrived in the Kingdom, the only trouble is is that he didn’t and he still hasn’t as yet! If you were to apply this same reasoning to everything that you have learnt regarding the “post Kingdom arrival” and then apply it to future events you would/will undergo a major reset in how one approaches the beliefs.

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah this 1914 madness has been one huge problem for WT. What arrogance to keep trying to prop it up.

            • Brian

              Indeed Craig, it almost falls under the Einstein definition of insanity, we’ll soon see if they stop it when the world blows up unexpectedly for them!

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah but by then it will be too late for them. They won’t have time to come up with new light by that time! 🙂

            • Brian

              I think that their confidence that the Kingdom arrived in 1914 will be running down their legs!

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah knees knocking together too! ha ha!

        • Easach L S of Coimbatore

          Especially Eph:2:19 specifically says: So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God

          • Craig Knight

            Easach – Yeah Ephesians make it pretty clear.

      • Burt Reynolds

        Great! Thanks Daisy. I never knew!

      • The Raven

        “For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
        So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”

        Since I am not familiar with what the WTO taught on this subject, I have always seen it this way in the above quote. I assumed those who knew ttatt also knew this. I’m finding out that this isn’t the case in many matters.

        • Richard Long

          We are all a proper mess, that’s for sure!

          • The Raven

            Is that really what the WTO taught? I asked a question about the evil shepherds in another thread with the “clergy” and political leaders killing them but haven’t got a reply yet on that. I’m surprised since I don’t read the wt.

            • Richard Long

              I’d think on what Daisy has written. The female perspective on WT nonsense is not to be ignored and Daisy’s one woman who’s put up with plenty of it over the past 50 years. How much impurity does it take to make the whole volume impure?

            • The Raven

              I never made any distinction on gender nor do I now when it comes to spiritual matters. I think that’s been obvious since I arrived. As to the wt I only actually got about 6 months worth and I’d pick them up in offices every so often but I haven’t seen anything like what I’ve seen since I came here. Robert has been exposing what the teachings are for years and I was not aware of a good bit of it. I studied on my own more than I did with anyone and barring some deeper aspects of prophecy, I had a good base in facts from scripture as well as basic truths from the jws. I am still reading his work and still asking questions. But I do not judge things as most folks do. I look at the thing itself and if it’s truth then it’s truth no matter the source. Do I “suspect” some things? Yes I do considering a vast amount of falsehoods in prophecy, but I do not discard everything. I have found elements of truth in the damnedest places. I have also found lies there too. If you know what I mean.

            • Richard Long

              Then I amend my statement to say:

              “I’d think on what Daisy has written.”

              And leave it at that.

            • The Raven

              lol! I consider what everyone writes here.

          • Brian

            Not really Richard and you seem to have a reasonable “handle” on it, it’s a journey just as the first time around was but now for me at least there is a much better balanced view to what is going on, the light does get brighter if you are looking and searching and you don’t need a particular person to throw the switch!

            • Richard Long

              By “we all” I did mean ME. I’m working on it.

            • Brian

              I see you posts here Richard and you seem to be “on to it”!

      • Brian

        Well he never abandoned them in as much as he has maintained Israel/Jews but only those that make up what would become the “new Jerusalem” or the ones “circumcised of the heart”. The “fleshly” nation has been relegated to history although there are plenty of “Christians” that still think there is something in the ME nation of Israel.

  • Huldah

    This is interesting to me for another reason.
    As JWs like to say that noone becomes a JW unless Christ draws him in.
    It makes every JW feel privileged and somewhat guaranteed salvation as they are so special Christ drew them.
    I have always felt that some become JWs for the same reason some become Baptists. Their family is there, they like a social club, they are part of the inner circle etc….
    These are the ones who are always learning and never coming to an accurate knowlege of the truth.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I think that is largely true. It is part of the cultural system. Many people think a comfortable conscience is the truth. My sister, a dedicated witness, will not listen to me because she is ‘happy with her religion.’ I think what she means is that she does not want to be made to think about it having dedicated some fifty plus years to it. She is too grand in herself to think that she may be misled. Personally, I never thought of the witnesses as a social club. Had I done so, I would have left years ago as the meetings bored me ‘witless’ if you’ll pardon the pun. I have often thought of your question but can find no reasonable answer to it. The truth is open to all, but some don’t feel it, others hate it, some can’t see it, some mock it and so on. It is unfair to feel that insight is given to some and not to others, that is not Jehovah’s way. He is unbiased. So what is it that makes some aware? It cannot be a loathing of this world because we are all part of it, though on a superficial layer, that would seem obvious., and anyway, that is a negative. I wonder how such a sense of positive realisation comes to some but not others. My answer thus far is that it’s clear to all, but that we/some choose to ignore it. But what it is, that we are clear on, I have no idea. I’m sorry it’s all a bit abstract. A wet Monday morning never was an inspiration to me.

      • Craig Knight

        My Mother and sister are both unreachable too! My Mom is in her late 80″s and my sister just lost her husband to cancer. So sometimes it’s best to leave our relatives alone. My sister needs her faith and I think it would be cruel of me to shake her faith. My Mom has is so old so why ruin her last years? I guess it depends on the situation. I like what you said about having a comfortable conscience. I noticed a big social club and the cliques at the Kingdom Hall too.

    • Simpletruth

      You are very right! I think another part of the problem is that people, as a general rule, feel special when they are privy to important information that others are not aware of. With that in mind one can only imagine why witnesses feel the way they do. I mean, they are a part of an organization of millions of people who are “enlightened” (for lack of a better word) and they believe that they and ONLY they have been drawn in.
      I think it’s important for JW’s to remember that they are simply being used to accomplish Jehovah’s Will and therefore should not feel so sure of themselves. Instead, they should maintain a more humble disposition and feel thankful rather than a sense of privilege that they are being used in such a way. Unfortunately many Jw’s think too highly of themselves because they are in “the truth” and this comes off to non believers as though they think they are better than other people. I’ve heard so many people say that this is one of their biggest turnoffs about the witnesses…

      • Richard Long

        I resembled that remark! … .hic….

      • Huldah

        It should be humbling to know you’ve been honored with special knowledge. Creating the desire to wield it with the utmost care.

        Overconfidence will prove to be a snare.
        The phrase “cocksureness peculiar to boasting” comes to mind from 2cor 11.

        • Simpletruth

          Well stated…

  • Easach L S of Coimbatore

    To my dear brother Robert King I have little bit problem in understanding. In this article you mentioned It is not that they are physically resurrected after the 1,000 years have ended, but that they finally become sin free after successfully completing the probationary process of rehabilitation during the 1,000 years.

    But when I read the Bible it says at Romans:6:23: For the wages sin pays is death.
    So if one is dead he/she has taken the wages, but how is that sin will still be sticking with the resurrected ones?

    Are they not dying because of committing sin the second time therefore second death?

    I understand that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended means they will not get everlasting life until they show loyalty to Jehovah and Jesus when Satan is unbound after the end of 1000 years rule of Christ.

    Also I have one more doubt. The righteous are resurrected and the unrighteous one also get resurrected. But what special we get those who have put faith in the Jehovah and Jesus during Satan’s rule that is now and get resurrected in Christ’s kingdom rule?Either Robert or anyone can help me to understand.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Hello Easach, the difference to the first part of your question may be choice. Yes they paid for their sin in death, but many had not known about Jehovah and so did not have the chance to decide if they wanted to serve him. Serving Jehovah is a choice, not a command, though highly recommended of course if you want to live, but one has to understand why, and have appreciation for the answer. I’m afraid I don’t understand the second point to your question.

    • Paul wrote that one who has died has been acquitted of sin. He was applying that to Christians who die a figurative death as to the flesh, but it applies to those who literally die as well. Those who receive the resurrection of judgment will have been acquitted of their sins, in that they will not be judged for the wicked things they did in this life. The judgment will be based upon what they do after their resurrection.

      That is why in the 20th chapter of Revelation it states: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”

      The original scrolls that were open must be the record of their deeds in this life. However, the other scrolls have to do with the laws and instructions that will issue from Christ during the re-creation. The “dead” will be judged according to their deeds in relation to their compliance with what is revealed in the new scrolls. Anyone who fails to live by that law will die again; hence, the second death.

      • Craig Knight

        Most translations say freed from sin if you compare verses like on Biblehub. When we die we are no longer able to sin or do anything else for that matter.

    • Craig Knight

      I think this is another verse that WT has misapplied. …22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The bible doesn’t say everyone who dies is acquitted of his sin. It simply says, If you sin willfully without faith you will die. You sin you die period. Jehovah’s resurrecting the unrighteous is just his mercy and the fact that Jesus bought the living and the dead when He died for all mankind. Sorry to disagree Robert. But this scripture is like the Other sheep. It’s been hammered into our heads all our lives. If you read John 10:16 the other sheep to me are the gentiles. I have read many Bible commentaries and every one I have read says it means the Gentiles will be called since the Jews did not accept that calling. I guess we can agree to disagree sometimes.

      • The Raven

        Almost All the dead come back to life during the 1000 years. The righteous and the unrighteous some of which were not necessarily bad people, in many cases just ignorant. Everyone gets a fresh start and instruction and guidance from Christ and His brothers towards the perfection of humanity. Even though we are brought back from the dead it doesn’t mean we can’t make mistakes or revert back to doing bad things. Some will do this regardless how much favor they are shown. We can still be executed.
        Isaiah 26:10
        10 Even if the wicked is shown favor,
        He will not learn righteousness.+
        Even in the land of uprightness* he will act wickedly,+
        And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.+

        Isaiah 65:20
        20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
        Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
        For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
        And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.*

        Some will attain perfection faster than others. Some will require the full allotted time. At the end of the 1000 years perfected humanity is tested once more when the devil is let loose from his bonds. Many will follow him and they are devoted to destruction, the second death.

        Now as to the second paragraph, how do you imagine humanity to be resurrected? As flesh and blood or otherwise? Or are you speaking of the anointed who are raised incorruptible spirits?

        • Craig Knight

          Well we are all Gentiles. Those of us who have the earthly hope and the anointed are also Gentiles or Jews who are blessed with perfection in an instant. The earthly bound have to work at it for a thousand years. It’s not unfair it’s just God has given the anointed Jews and Gentiles immortality upon resurrection. But hey a thousand years sounds good to me. You are right about those of us who make it into the paradise earth, we will have to always stay close to God and like the angels we can die if we disrespect God’s laws. The anointed however are blessed with immortality something which Christendom cannot clearly comprehend.

          • The Raven

            Are you speaking of the spiritual “jews” as the anointed and the “gentiles” which would be us as the earthly crowd of Jehovah’s people? Just to be clear.

            • Craig Knight

              Yes, well of course Gentiles and Jew’s are called to be anointed. But most of us earthly bound folks will be made up of gentiles simply because there aren’t the numbers of Jews. Of course the anointed are called spiritual Israel but that obviously includes both groups.

            • The Raven
            • Craig Knight

              I think you are misunderstanding me. The Jew’s as a group were replaced by the Gentiles but that doesn’t mean some individual Jewish people are not selected by God. The idea that the Jews are God’s favored people still is absolutely wrong. All these lame ideas many religions have of Jesus coming down to rule in Jerusalem among his favored people is foolish.

            • Richard Long

              If you are forwarding the idea that God will keep his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding their descendants, of course you absolutely must be right. I think we all get confused by the deception/misconception that “all Jews” are are Abraham’s progeny, further compounded by the evidence that those who represent themselves as Abraham’s children today cannot prove such. You are right to say we simply cannot second guess God in this matter.

            • Craig Knight

              I appreciate the comments Richard. Thank you!

            • The Raven

              How is someone second guessing? Did Christ fulfill the requirements of the covenant? Was he not the promised seed? Not seeds, but seed?
              Were the promises to Abraham kept or not? They were. And the rest are for the new kingdom. So how do anyone’s descendants take precedence over anyone else by virtue of their race or claims to a bloodline?
              They don’t.

            • Richard Long

              Did I say Abraham’s or anyone’s descendants take precedence over anyone for any reason? I said God must keep his promises to whomever he has made them, and in the case of Abraham I was referring to this:

              Genesis 12 And Jehovah said to Aʹbram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you.+ 2 I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing.+ 3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you,+ and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed* by means of you.”+

              I further stated that, as far as I can tell, the descendants of Abraham are currently unknown to anyone but Jehovah.

              Apologies if I caused confusion.

            • The Raven

              No, not at all. But it doesn’t matter who the descendants are in modern day. His promises were for those of old who remained faithful and they will be rewarded in the new kingdom as will others who stayed with Jehovah.
              To be blessed by means of Abraham was in relation to the Seed which was Christ. It carries no further implications to a physical line of families now or future. For those who claim that blessing the Jews is required of Christians is what this is often quoted as. That is wrong. I think you know that, though. Some don’t.
              Whether they are known to Jehovah or not, they are all under the same conditions and requirements for salvation as the rest of the world is. They are either with Jehovah and follow the Christ or they are not and don’t.
              That’s what I was explaining when the issue of jews was brought into this.

            • Richard Long

              Then we are agreeing, not arguing, i think. For me, “the jews” are just as irrelevant as the GB and any other control mechanism.

            • The Raven

              Yep. But there are readers here that lurk. Sometimes we write in ambiguous terms and have to make things clear and remind ourselves of what we do know and what we weren’t too certain about. Our memories fail us as to who we said what to.

            • Huldah

              Kinda what I was thinking. The Jews are irrelevant now and the JWs will be irrelevant in the near future. Once apostasy sets in… Game over and there’s a new game in town is just around the bend.

            • Richard Long

              There is something to be said about the Roman’s 11 references Beverly has been making so forcefully of late, I’m just not able to apply myself to it. You should know that Bev is one of your most ardent “supporters” (for lack of a more accurate word) and she has privately taken me task, and rightly so, for careless use of the expression “the jews”.

            • Huldah

              “By means of your seed all nations of the earth will bless themselves.”
              Gen. 22:18
              Jesus was that seed.
              As you described.
              I think thats all there is to it.

            • The Raven

              Yep.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, it is lame the idea of Jesus coming down to rule in Jerusalem but if you read Romans11:28 they are beloved by God for the sake of their forefathers telling me the Heavenly Father is no fair weather friend….verse 33 goes on to say, ‘Oh, the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge. How unsearchable his judgements are and past tracing out his ways are’! NWT. Verse 34, for who did know the mind of the Lord? Or who did become His counsellor? Young’s Literal Translation.

            • The Raven

              Jews or anyone else, does not matter. What our forefathers did does not matter. Our standing with Jehovah and Christ is the only thing that does. They follow Christ. They are not followers of JUDAISM. They are CHRISTIANS.
              Bottom line, there is no significance to what ethnicity ANY of the anointed are from. They are all one in Christ. So why would anyone want to make that distinction?

            • Craig Knight

              I agree with everything you said. Jehovah calls his anointed ones from all the tribes of the earth. Race is not an issue now since Christ called Paul to witness to the nations. This is because Jews and Gentiles which is everyone else in the world now can be chosen by God. Like you say being a Christian has nothing to do with ethnicity anymore since Christ opened the heavenly calling up to the entire world of mankind and the Great Crowd from all the nations as well..

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yes, Craig, the ‘entire world of mankind’. Reading Romans 8 gives me that impression that EVERYONE should reach out for a heavenly calling and not conditioned to think they should have a ‘earthly’ calling. Where they end up is another thing!

            • The Raven

              Not everyone wants to go to heaven. I certainly do not, and never have even from my time being beaten in the Catholic church and threatened with hell. Why should we go where we do not want to? Of course even those who do not have that calling will suffer and die along side those who are, but I’m certain Jehovah will not force someone to do this. We have to want it. I am not conditioned by anybody and never was. I have always believed I would be right here. Apparently I’m not the only one.

            • Richard Long

              I, too, greatly desire what Adam lost and have no desire for what Jesus has gained (as I perceive these outcomes through my pathetic, limited, human existence). However, one must at least consider that this desire is in itself a perversion. I can’t imagine Paul or John having it.. At the very least it is borne of WT conditioning (in my case). We must, I think, allow Jehovah to put us where He determines we will find greatest joy, and live in the now for either eventuality.

            • The Raven

              The desire to stay on earth may be a perversion? What do you mean?

            • Richard Long

              The desire to impose our preference of outcome on the Father who so loves us and knows what we truly want and need to be complete can certainly be considered perversion of thought. Did Jesus not say “Not my will, but Your will!” It is the WT who has told us “you will be this and we will be that”. I’m simply not willing to take their word for it anymore.

            • The Raven

              He put us in a garden. He meant for us to stay there. We screwed up. Well, the devil helped us there. That made it necessary for Jehovah to redeem us. He plans to put us back in that garden. The anointed are a new creation. They are the exception to the norm which is life here as eternal human beings. I think most folks inherently know where they should be and if there has been any conditioning it has been on the part of Christendom which hammers into us the notions that we have an immortal soul, that we all go to heaven or hell and that the earth will be destroyed. They far outnumber the jws. I never got the impression from the jws that the invitation was not extended to all. But…they certainly treated certain ones differently and that’s wrong. I never felt as though they were withholding anything from me since I never wanted it.
              Jehovah’s creation will be restored and that means most of us will be right here, where we were supposed to be. That was His will. I think those called know who they are and they have had a token of their calling. I have not. That doesn’t put me in a position to deny God’s will at all.

            • Richard Long

              I share your sentiment, but I distrust my heart.

            • The Raven

              If we are meant to be there He will tell us. So far, I haven’t been told. I take it you have’t either and that’s fine by me. Those who have , cool.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Cool your jets Raven and unfuff your feathers! No one’s forcing anybody about their hope but it’s good to have an option instead of having an idea taught into your head. Reading Romans 8 makes you think, you know what, I’ll give that a serious thought, I’ll try wrap my mind around that thought. And I’m very happy for you that you were not conditioned by anybody. Good for you!

            • The Raven

              I’m not pissed off, in fact far from it. I find this all very interesting and it opens up a discussion I really like. The way you wrote it made it sound like we should all reach out for a heavenly calling. But, thanks for clarifying that as to choice.
              I agree, that opportunity exists for all and IMO since I don’t know how the jws saw that it’s how it always was. It’s cool to know I was on the right track anyway. As I told Richard, I am not aware of ALL they’ve taught and I find some weird stuff every once in awhile. I’m having a blast!

            • Huldah

              “Unfluff your feathers” Lol That made me laugh. Guess it’s cause I have a cantankerous parrot. Keep these guys in line, Bev. Sometimes you have to grab ahold of their ears or their tail feathers in Raven’s case!

            • The Raven

              lol. I don’t think I deserved that.

            • Huldah

              Me either, but I just couldn’t resist the metaphor!

            • Craig Knight

              The New Testament does seem to deal with mostly the anointed ones because that’s what Jesus was there to introduce to the world. But we know there are 2 classes of Christians because Jehovah’s plan was to return the earth back to paradise for humans. But that couldn’t happen until Jesus died and started his new covenant. Jehovah called the 144,000 to rules as kings over the earth. What’s the point of all people going to heaven? Then why did Jehovah create the earth? Jesus resurrected the dead back to human form when He was on the earth and gave to the Apostles the power to do that as well. The blind were healed, lepers were healed, crippled were healed etc. Jesus did this to show what will take place on the earth in the future. Then there are scriptures like the meek shall inherit the earth etc. Christendom has lost all knowledge of Jehovah’s plan for the earth. I agree with Raven. I don’t feel any connection to heaven but for the earth. Either you have the calling or you don’t. Don’t forget that all the faithful people before Jesus came to earth did not have the opportunity to go to heaven so that’s why they believed in a resurrection to the earth.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Craig. I get all that. And like I said, that’s great you know where you would like to be. And don’t forget the one when talking to ones who think everyone goes to heaven, if everyone was to end up in Heaven then who would be left on earth, that’s one I was taught from the ones I studied with and I was so happy to pass on, not even really thinking about what I was saying and just partoting what I was told as the one’s who I was being taught God’s by knew EVERTHING and who was I, a very ‘worldly’ person to question their vast knowledge and goodness. Like you said, ‘calling’. So reading the Romans 8 with an open mind and meditating on it, who knows?! At this moment in time in my life, even in this evil, crappy world I’m quite happy to be here, but when thinking about the paradise world and the Heavenly world it should be in a spiritual sense. It should be about the sanctification of God’s name like we were taught to pray by the Jesus Christ and hopefully keeping our a Faith intact when things gear up notches as like Jesus says, all other things will be added to you. Until then armed with wisdom & discernment, I will read God’s Word with my eyes open along with my mind, open to things other than I was ‘taught’. I don’t care much for academic & tradition.

            • The Raven

              “I was being taught God’s by knew EVERTHING and who was I, a very ‘worldly’ person to question their vast knowledge and goodness.”

              Haha! Been there, done that! One of the reasons I grew suspicious. They reminded me of my old teachers.

            • Craig Knight

              I totally agree with keeping an open mind all the time and also questioning everything not just being spoon fed a bunch of garbage and agreeing with it.1 Thess 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. Examining everything isn’t always easy but it’s worth the effort. Hold fast to what is good and chuck the rest out! Robert said that Jehovah’s sovereignty is more important than our lives even. That comment really moved me because as imperfect humans we tend to think of our lives first. That should be our first concern like you say. Who knows you or I or anybody on this forum could be called by God someday. We just never know. I think of it as too high an honor for myself but it is Jehovah who does the calling. I hate tradition as well and I think God and Jesus do too.

            • Daisy

              The 144k in revelation is concerning a future time when those members ‘come out of the GT’ and so Jehovah hasnt ‘ ‘called’ those ones now, based on an event that hasn’t happened yet, we know it will happen but revelation speaks of a time in the future. Jews and Gentiles will be tested by their experience.
              There’s only one way of salvation and that’s to believe in the good news of the kingdom, belief that God is One and the Messiah is his only begotten son. I’d say as Jws, we could call him an only forgotten- begotten son as we’re not encouraged a close relationship nor are we encouraged to call on the HS he said would be with us until he comes again, the GB have usurped his position by placing themselves in his rightful position. Heb 5:9… Everything is based on our faithful obedience to Jesus, that is Gods will. For Jesus shed his blood to ratify,

            • Craig Knight

              God has been calling the anointed aka 144,000 since Pentecost and many are asleep in death but when Christ return’s after the their number is complete then those who are dead already and those who made thru the GT will all be raised to rule with Christ and even take part in Armageddon alongside Jesus. I agree that the sealing will be finalized when Christ returns.Those of the Great Crowd will be refined as well.

              That’s funny the forgotten Begotten Son. I like that one. I find it very irritating that the GB says only they have God’s spirit and then at the same time say they are not inspired! How stupid is that. All Christians can call on God thru Jesus and ask for the holy spirits help. I feel God’s spirit all the time when I read his word. Jesus can only be with us until He returns thru the Holy Spirit. How else can He be with his people if not thru the holy spirit. It isn’t something that just the anointed have. The GB want full control over JW’s and that is absolutely wrong. I think the anointed make up Christs New Covenent, but I disagree that they alone have Christ as their mediator. I think all Christians do. Mediator definition = This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius, an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Galatians 3:19. The two parties mentioned are obviously God and Christians. Not just the anointed but the Great Crowd also! Praying to Jehovah we need to go thru Jesus name to call on God Almighty. That’s being a mediator between us God isn’t it? I totally disagree with WT’s teaching that only the anointed have Christ as their mediator. This is just a ploy to keep the foot solldier JW’s in line and holding their self appointed position to Lord it over them.

              Christ is the one and only mediator between God and mankind ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ; Hebrews 8:6 ; 9:15 ; 12:24 ). He makes reconciliation between God and man by his all-perfect atoning sacrifice.

            • Huldah

              Well said. HS can direct all of us.
              It’s very logical to me that the choosing of the 144000 started in 33 but continues right into our time. Now is the most trialsome time for christians. It should produce some thoroughly tested ones.

            • Craig Knight

              Huldah – Yes, the JW’s are going to be in for a shock aren’t they. The end is not going to be a walk in the park that’s for sure. Robert explains the end times for us very well. We all need to be ready for prison or death when the 8th king shows up. Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. We all know what the number 10 stands for in the Bible.

            • Brian

              Calling all Craig, calling all for them to reach out to be chosen, only a few will be chosen though!

            • Craig Knight

              It’s now over 2,000 years since the calling began. Jehovah is taking his time but actually for him it’s only been two days so from our vantage point it seems long.

              2 Peter 3:9 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.…

            • Brian

              Hi Daisy, “technically” all that have publicly declared their faith in Jesus have actually been called but it is when Jesus does arrive he will separate those that belong to the father, even Jesus doesn’t know who they are but only the father so when Jesus receives the scroll and is then given the knowledge of the day to go forward to establish the Kingdom he’ll probably have been given the “list” of those that have been chosen. 🙂 , we must remember that “many are called but few are chosen”, also it is only the JW’s that have created a separate group as though Jehovah has already let them know (by giving them the list for Jesus 🙂 who is who…..I’m running with bollocks on that one! : ))

            • Beverly kenyon

              Running with bollocks….that’s funny. Loving this discussion with you, Craig, Daisy, Huldah, making me think regarding the topic.

            • Huldah

              Matthew 22:14
              “Many called few chosen.”
              I’m looking at that phrase in a new way now. It makes me wonder if there aren’t quite a number who are called or “anointed” whose crowns are later removed for unworthiness.
              It’s a quandary to me that Jesus threatened so many anointed ones in congregations like Sardis and Laodicea with losing their anointing if the continued their disobedience. See Revelation, the letters to the congregations.
              Wouldn’t that seem to indicate that, rather than being almost a surety, anointing is just an invitation one can fail to live up to? And many more than we think may not or have not lived up to it?

            • The Raven

              This is true. Have you seen this article? It goes into detail concerning this matter.

              https://e-watchman.com/brothers-christ/

              BTW they don’t have a crown. They have a token. But it requires them to remain faithful to that calling Until they are sealed.

            • Huldah

              Rev. 3:11 ” keep holding fast that noone may take your crown”

              That’s what I was referencing from Rev.

              I was subtly showing the crown is not even permanent.

              Good article hadn’t read it.

            • The Raven

              I see what you mean and I agree, their positions are not guaranteed and that also makes me think about the eleventh hour workers and whether some are “replacements” or simply called in just recently.

              https://e-watchman.com/many-first-will-last-last-first/

              “Far from the Watchtower’s teaching that the faithful slave has already passed the test and been blessed with his reward, Jesus’ many illustrations show that some of the invited guests – the anointed – will prove unworthy during the final judgment and be thrown out of God’s kingdom. And as respects those who ultimately are approved: “There are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”

            • Richard Long

              “replacements” implies a sealed one falling out, which is a concept borne of the false parousia delusion, as we recognize per Robert that the sealing takes place during the yet future actual parousia. Your commentary indicates you recognize the number of tokens far exceeds the number of final crowns. It is the WT that has taught us to raise an eyebrow at any 11th hour token holder. You can decide why.

            • The Raven

              That is what I am stating, as the article states also. I am not looking at what the org said since they attach much of this to the false parousia. But as Huldah asks, IMO, it stands to reason that more are called than fits the final number. I have looked at that as a reasonable explanation for the scripture. My question at this point would be, what happens to those who do not make the cut? Are they all consigned to the fire or do they have an earthly hope? Does this translate into failure deserving of death? Is this expressly for the final hours or is this in some way also relevant to those who make it through into the kingdom?
              Joseph’s story applies here, I think. Robert mentioned something about the WT and Franz missing something about the flocks(?) or crowds. I am wondering what that is.

            • Richard Long

              Are you willing to look outside the eWatchman library for your answer?

            • The Raven

              My bible.

            • The Raven

              The other reason why your question is important is because of this:
              https://e-watchman.com/brothers-christ/
              Excerpt:
              “But here is the thing: Since the wicked and sluggish slaves have not been cast out yet, how can the righteous judgment of the sheep and the goats be based upon their giving or not giving assistance to those who only falsely claim to be brothers of Christ? Obviously, they cannot be judged fairly on that basis.”

              “The point is, it is only after the spiritual Jews are judged, that is when those Jews who are approved enter into the Kingdom and become accepted as full-fledged brothers of Christ —making them sons of God, the same as Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers. It is their acceptance as sons of God that will then bring about the phenomenon Paul referred to in the eighth chapter of Romans —the revealing of the sons of God. And when the full number of the sons of the Kingdom has been attained, then the Kingdom is complete. That is when Jesus will sit down on his throne —the resurrected holy ones with him.”
              “Then the revealing of the remaining chosen sons of God will be the basis for the judgment of the sheep and the goats. That is when the prophecy of Zechariah will be fulfilled, which states: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’

            • Brian

              Huldah, I am of the “opinion” that many are “anointed” for many different purposes and I mean this in relation to reaching out to or teaching all of the people that are putting or are going to potentially put their faith in the Christ (of course doing the works as some need to hear), from this massive group of people that have put their “faith” in Jesus, which we can regard as a calling from reading the scriptures about “making disciples of all sorts of people” there will be by Jesus arrival in the Kingdom a point in time when he will, under Jehovah’s direction select out from all of the nations those that belong to God. Does anyone viewing here know or realise the meaning of when they have found the pearl???

            • Huldah

              I do believe that many are anointed much more tham WT presents it to be as if maybe a small number above the 144K allowing for just a few to prove unworthy.

              I believe each has different “gifts” to minister with.

              I also believe that there is an earthly hope and that anointed ones have a true sense of their being anointed unlike those with an earthly hope.

              A question hangs in my mind though as to why it appears arbitrary who is chosen as it just seems logical to me that ones who have demonstrated real faith and endurance should be placed before those who were simply born in the first century or early.1900s.
              I’m actually looking to examine the letters to the congs in Revelation to get a clearer view of what Jesus truly thought of them. Did he really accept them ALL as anointed? Or did he only accept those few he commended for their endurance, while holding back a ‘reservation in the heavens’ 1Peter 1, from those who demonstrated a lack of faith or obedience.
              The door opened only to those with surpassing endurance and faith, the door , at least to heaven, closed to those without it, and all restrained by the prospect that they could still lose their place in heaven or on a paradise earth, should they ‘become disapproved somehow’.

            • Richard Long

              One might ask what the original Russelite Bible Students believed, then ask why and under what circumstances their beliefs changed. Factor in all of the false parousia delusion nonsense and the assumption driven “interpretation” resulting from taking a position and bending the scripture to it and you may be close to your answer.

            • Huldah

              The Russelites believed everyone who came in the truth were called to heaven. Only if they were unfaithful were they no longer going to heaven. Did they know much about the earthly hope. I’m not too informed on that?
              Rutherford was the one who opened up the great multitude doctrine.
              The great crowd/multitude idea is sound but perhaps the premise that the reason the doctrine came to light had to do with the 144000 being closed at about 1935 needs to be tanked. I think they have actually put that aside.
              The WT teaches that the requirements for life in heaven or on earth are tge exact same that the anointed are not more spiritual or more faithful.
              The early B Students didn’t believe that.
              I think we do need to look at it like there’s a reason some are called and some are not has to do with their proving themselves beyond a doubt, something that wouldn’t be necessary for the great crowd as they are not made immortal.

              It may just be the most logical answer to assume that everyone who comes to a knowledge of the truth has the potential to be anointed. It just depends on choices and life circumstances that do or do not lay the groundwork for the necessary testing and refining that results in completeness worthy of the heavenly calling. Of course, we can chose to take the easy road ir the hard one sometimes, leading to very different outcomes.

              No matter how many are given the opportunity, Jehovah would have known only144k would complete tge training.
              He can also read our hearts from babyhood and see the direction we will likely take in life.

              Why are some anointed at baptism, others later?
              Rather than it being that the late ones are replacements, perhaps its just that Jeh deals with us as individuals and knows when is best for each person for optimal training.

              Sort of like knowing when to let your kid start driving, you know when is best for each one. Some can’t handle that kind of power at a young age.

              Did I get anywhere? In case you didn’t notice, I have a habit of thinking out loud. Lol

            • Richard Long

              More on the mind of Russell in his own words included in an article elsewhere.

              http://meletivivlon.com/2013/05/27/c-t-russell-hits-too-close-to-home/

      • Huldah

        There’s a lot of reasonableness to what you said here.
        Especially 2Cor. 5
        I’ve always had trouble with the idea that there is a free pass for everyone except.just a few that die at Arnageddon.
        It’s hard for us to understand how we are being effected by living in a super permissive society.
        Is Jehovah really the kind of person that just throws it all.up.in the air and says “Okay no consequences for.anyone!”?
        Kinda sad so many suffered horribly to be obedient to God, while others lived greedy wicked vile lives and they both end up with the same basic fate. The only consolation for the aforementioned suffers is that they are more likely to be successful during tge thousand years. Something does feel right about that.

        • Craig Knight

          Thank you Huldah – It’s just another verse in the Bible WT misapplies like the other sheep. We don’t need that incorrect explanation anyway. We know Jehovah is an understanding loving God and that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That scripture is self explanatory. But like you say if we are acquitted which is the bias of the WT silver sword then we should have just stayed in the world and partied and committed all kinds of sin if we are acquitted when we die. That would be unfair to those of us who are striving to be obedient. Go to Biblehub and look up that verse most Bibles say FREED from sin. I have discovered that ALL Bible translations have biases to support their idea’s and the WT Bible has it’s biases for sure as well. It’s a superior translation because it inserts Jehovah’s name where it belongs 7,000 times. So I always go and look at Biblehub to see what other translations say. I disagree with the fact that Jesus is only the mediator for the 144,000 also. The new covenant is for the 144,000 that I agree with but it doesn’t mean that the Great Crowd don’t have Christ as our mediator as well. Scriptural proof is 1 Tim 2:5 …4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all. It doesn’t say for some special group only does it? He is the mediator for ALL. As much as I love our Brother Robert He often ignores good questions and responds like a JW elder and just says no that’s wrong but produces no scriptural support and frankly He ignores a lot of people’s good questions like the one I asked him about. During the 1000 year reign the great crowd still needs a mediator until the thousand years end. We all know that we cannot pray to Jehovah until we are perfected. Jesus will have to be our mediator because that’s what prayer is. Does anyone agree with me on this??? By the way I know Robert is extremely busy and He does such a great job in explaining so many things and I agree with him 99.9875% percent of the time. It must be hard to answer so many questions, soI understand and have empathy for him. He takes on a lot of responsibility here. But as ex JW’s we had Elders just say shut up and accept our explanation or we will shun you. So I have had enough of that and I always believe God’s word over Men’s ideas when there is no Bible support for it no matter who writes it.

          • Huldah

            Puts a new spin on “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we will die.” (Add “and be acquitted from all our sins”)

            I can relate to your feelings on the Elder’s attitudes toward the sheep. So glad I’m allowed to think again.

            You are likely right that the great crowd needs a mediator until perfected. Everything is handed over to Christ until all are perfected and he hands all back to Jehovah. I think some new scrolls may have a bearing on the mediatorship. We will at that time also have the anointed in heaven. Who knows how the kingdom being put in place will effect things as we know them.

          • The Raven

            Huldah quote:
            “Is Jehovah really the kind of person that just throws it all.up.in the air and says “Okay no consequences for.anyone!”?
            Craig quote:
            “But like you say if we are acquitted which is the bias of the WT silver sword then we should have just stayed in the world and partied and committed all kinds of sin if we are acquitted when we die.
            That would be unfair to those of us who are striving to be obedient.”

            I wonder. But I do not think those who survive are going to be worried about any of that. It’s the judges who deal with it, including us. How could we know?
            I don’t know of a reward other than surviving this and I do know that knowing the truth and turning your back on it can be punished severely. Maybe knowing these things has it’s own price. IMO.
            I am a bit hesitant to say that being a good Christian will be all that’s measured here.
            Luke 18: 9-13

            I do know we won’t have any excuses come the new kingdom.

            • Craig Knight

              We know from scripture that willful sin will get you tossed into the 2nd death and sinning against the spirit. But according to WT teaching on being acquitted anyone who dies gets a pass no matter what. Sounds like more nonsense.

            • The Raven

              That’s true. That’s how I understand it. But in the second matter, I am not so certain. Food for thought. Lots of thought! lol!

            • Craig Knight

              Well the NWT says those who die are acquitted from sin’ So using their logic then even those who grieve the spirit when they die will be automatically acquitted. So why would’t Judas be acquitted? He died didn’t he?

              Here are comparative Bibles on that subject:

              New International Version
              because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

              New Living Translation
              For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.

              English Standard Version
              For one who has died has been set free from sin.

              Berean Study Bible
              For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

              Berean Literal Bible
              For the one having died has been freed from sin.

              New American Standard Bible
              for he who has died is freed from sin.

              King James Bible
              For he that is dead is freed from sin.

              Holman Christian Standard Bible
              since a person who has died is freed from sin’s claims.

              International Standard Version
              For the person who has died has been freed from sin.

              NET Bible
              (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)

              New Heart English Bible
              For he who has died has been freed from sin.

              Aramaic Bible in Plain English
              For whoever is dead has been freed from sin.

              GOD’S WORD® Translation
              The person who has died has been freed from sin.

              New American Standard 1977
              for he who has died is freed from sin.

              Jubilee Bible 2000
              For he that is dead is justified from sin.

              King James 2000 Bible
              For he that is dead is freed from sin.

              American King James Version
              For he that is dead is freed from sin.

              American Standard Version
              for he that hath died is justified from sin.

              Douay-Rheims Bible
              For he that is dead is justified from sin.

              Darby Bible Translation
              For he that has died is justified from sin.

              English Revised Version
              for he that hath died is justified from sin.

              Webster’s Bible Translation
              For he that is dead is freed from sin.

              Weymouth New Testament
              for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

              World English Bible
              For he who has died has been freed from sin.

              Young’s Literal Translation
              for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

            • The Raven

              Another thought about this is that there appears to be a double standard. But that may only apply during tribulation. Looks like a number of things can only be relevant during that time.

            • Huldah

              I understand your point that it won’t matter to those who survive. However…Based on my experience with many JWs in many congregations, I truly believe that the subtle idea that Jehovah is permissive (in the sense that it is really not all that important what we do in this life as long as we die) has led to a reduced sense of seriousness and willingness to make sacrifices for our faith. What if Jehovah is as serous about the standards set forth in the scriptures as he says he is? What if he actually expects us the live by those standards and will hold us to them, even if we die? That changes the fate of many who we are guaranteeing a second chance if they don’t make any effort in this life. We can wait to find that out after Armageddon, but, as for me, I will use every last brain cell and bit of information I have to sort it out now, before, I myself, have no second chance to make the right choices. I won’t be taking the WT’s word for it or looking to the congregation to feel confident that I meet some minimum standard.

            • The Raven

              What I meant by that is that we can’t tell who’s done what for sure. Maybe in some cases but I see what you mean. If you are speaking strictly about Jws or everyone?

            • Huldah

              I’m excluding anyone who wouldn’t logically be held accountable because they really had no opportunity to know God’s true standards or were deceived such as those living during the Dark Ages. Those who know the truth or had real opportunity to take it to heart, is generally what I mean.

            • The Raven

              Ah, ok. That’s what I thought. Yep. I agree. At this particular junction it most definitely does matter what we do. That’s why I watch everything.

            • Huldah

              Yeah, we’re kinda in the hot seat, living right on the cusp of Armageddon and all. No time to be asleep at the wheel.

      • Huldah

        I took a look at Revelation 20 especially verse 13. It’s odd to group the resurrection so closely with the judgement, if the judgement comes hundreds of years after the resurrection.
        “13The
        sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the
        dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what
        they had done.”

        Wouldn’t the average person reading this (without any preconceived notions) assume that the judgement had to be for the only deeds the recently resurrected had had opportunity to perform, namely those done in this life? The over complexity of the reasoning of the WT on these verses smacks of the same contrivance of the new reasoning on “the generation”.

        Aren’t we twisting and turning something simple and obvious to fit what some may want to believe on both accounts, “the generation” and “the judgement”.

        The other thing that strikes me is that the judgement appears to be a moot point, if the final test at the end of the thousand years serves to prove who is on Jehovah’s side anyway. It’s a sort of double jeopardy to try the resurrected ones who didn’t side with Satan for other things they did wrong during the thousand years or to try those who sided with Satan for other things they did wrong besides siding with Satan during the final test!!!

        I assume that the great crowd will not be a comparatively large number and/or have as much difficulty not siding with Satan in the end, since they will have already faced Gog once. The final test appears to be for the resurrected “unrighteous” primarily as they are the most numerous and most likely to fail this test. So why and when do they face judgement for their separate deeds? Doesn’t add up.

        • Craig Knight

          Yeah WT loves making things complicated don’t they? If the resurrected are acquitted why does that test at the end of the 1000 years even need to happen? Your last paragraph was brilliant!

          • Huldah

            I think I had some help from HS on that one. The idea kept nudging its way into my brain, despite my distraction. When I finally focused on it, it was like “POW, now that’s about as clear as day!”

        • The Raven

          “Wouldn’t the average person reading this (without any preconceived notions) assume that the judgement had to be for the only deeds the recently resurrected had had opportunity to perform, namely those done in this life?”

          Hmmm. I didn’t reach that conclusion, lol. In fact my comment to Craig 4 days ago was actually how I read it. That’s how the WT sees it??? Wow!
          Now I do wonder if some who were particularly bad may be raised to admonishment or correction right off the bat but still given the opportunity to do right?
          Is that even a possibility in your estimation?

          • Huldah

            You’ve hit on the other point. Would Jehovah resurrect people just to condemn them? What you said “some who were particularly bad may be raised to admonishment or correction right off the bat…” is sound reasoning. Jesus did say “those who practiced vile things” would be resurrected to judgement. Maybe, like Manasseh, they will be given a chance to show heartfelt repentance when directly confronted with their actions.

            I’m still thinking on that one.

            • The Raven

              I would think that may be the case. There have been some awful ones like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc. I am inclined to think since we stand at the culmination of everything the prophets and all the great ones from scripture and through time the weight of it all bears down on this generation heavily. It’s a terrible but also wonderful time to be here, now and when this all ends. I would also think that this is what sets us apart and weighs more on us than anyone else in time. The judgments on His house alone are astounding. The conditions IMO will be different for those who must stand in the final day then they are for those who come back from the grave. They must be. This is the wind down to it.
              Easach asked a peculiar question about this. “What special?” for those who make it after this?
              I would answer, life everlasting in a new world.

            • Craig Knight

              You gotta love those paradigm shifts! 🙂

  • Besorongola Rainisoa

    You use “reasonably, logically…” to argument your point of view.
    As a simple human beeing, you can never have the same way of thinking of God.

    • I use reason and logic to harmonize the Scriptures. What would you advise, irrationality and illogic?

      • Besorongola Rainisoa

        Of course not. I agree you have an understanding of some parts of the bible which are with no doubt true. But please also accept that there are some parts your understanding are, let s say limited. Which is something very normal. Even Paul acknowledged his connaissance was limited…

        • Yeah, but Paul used logic and reasoning to explain the truth, something you seem to have a problem with.

          • Besorongola Rainisoa

            The apostles never understood the fate of Jesus until he died on the cross. Simply because it did not correspond to human logic. If you use human logic to try to explain what in the Bible is “for the moment” not comprehensible, this is not working. You will fall into the same error as the JW.

            • No. You are wrong. Had the apostles reasoned upon the Scriptures they would have known that Jesus had to die, but that he would be resurrected. In fact, just a few weeks after Jesus was resurrected the apostle Peter reasoned with the Jews on the Psalms, explaining to them using logic that David was still in his grave, but that the Psalm the king wrote was prophetic, pertaining to the resurrection of Jesus. It had been comprehensible all along, had the apostles used their powers of reason to sort it out.

            • Daisy d

              Until holy spirit came upon the believers I would think that they were not intellectually equipped to use their powers of reason to ‘sort it out’; they might have been ‘faders’ from all that they knew from the Pharisees so Jesus’ teachings profoundly challenged the religion they’d grown up with his use of speaking in parables & metaphorically even though they’d witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus; Jesus claiming he’d die and rise again was a dramatic claim. They were uneducated and unlettered after all

            • Huldah

              Luke 24
              25 So he said to them: “O senseless ones and slow of heart to believe all the things the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things+ and to enter into his glory?”+ 27 And starting with Moses and all the Prophets,+ he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.

              Hi Daisy
              This seems to indicate that Jesus believed they were capable just unbelieving.
              Reminds me today of the GB.
              They are culpable because they are capable. They could find the truths Robert has if their hearts were open to the truth and not stuck on preconceived notions.
              The difference is that the apostles quickly adjusted once shown the truth. Of course they sort of had to since Jesus died.

            • Daisy d

              Aah, if the GB only had a heart…new laws could be written on them … Knock knock… All hollow…if they only had a heart…The Sinsmith hasn’t given them one.

            • Huldah

              I’d dig out my ruby slippers and take them to see the wizard but I’m not up to dealing with the Wicked Witch of Warwick.

            • John 12:40
              Isaiah 6:10
              Isaiah 48:4

            • “In fact, it was concealed from them that they might not see through it,” ~ Luke 9:45

              Luke 10:21
              Rom 15:4
              Luke 22:34
              2-Thess 2:11-12
              James 1:5
              Proverbs 3:5

            • Besorongola Rainisoa

              “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended,”Apo20:5.
              Then in Apo20:7 “Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison”
              It shows that the ressurection is not a “process of rehabilitation during the 1,000 year” because it wil take place at a precise moment “as soon as the 1 000 years have ended”.
              And again in Apo20:And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave* gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.+
              Meaning: the judgment is not a long process of 1 000 years.

            • I see. I suspect you probably came up with that nonsense seeing that you have an aversion to using logic and reasoning.

            • Besorongola Rainisoa

              You have no proof of what you are saying. Please have the humility of Paul when he said ” I know a man in union with Christ who, years ago—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows”. It can help you to progress.

            • No, I think you are impervious to reason, by your own admission. You haven’t the basic knowledge of a new Bible student and yet you want to correct me. It is you that could use some humility.

            • ? mezimmah

              Proverbs 1:4;6

              (thinking ability)

            • Besorongola Rainisoa

              It is very astonishing you never read this one: “If anyone thinks he knows something, he does not yet know it as he should know it”

            • If you are implying that we can’t know the most elementary things of scripture, that’s just plain silly. Paul chided the Hebrews because, although they had been Christians for some time they were not effective teachers. They were still sucking on the milk and couldn’t handle the meat. That is obviously the case with you. In fact, I would say you can’t yet handle the milk.

            • Giuseppe
  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    Question what is the meaning of Revelation 16:3 as far as what is represented by the sea and what is everything in it that dies ? Does this Sea represent all the people that are going to die or Marked for Death?

    • Yes. The seven bowls of God’s anger are poured out as an immediate prelude to Armageddon. At that point the harvest will have occurred. Everyone else will be condemned to death. That is what is represented by the pouring out of the first bowl, which comes upon those who have received the 666 mark. Every sea creature dying as a result of the sea turning to blood symbolizes the sentence of permanent death issued upon the world, which is frequently symbolized as the sea.

      Since the two witnesses are empowered to turn the waters into blood and call down every sort of plague, and are said to torment the peoples with their witnessing, the pouring out of the bowls must relate to the proclamations of doom that will be issued by the last remaining chosen ones after they are sealed.

      • Burt Reynolds

        When I was attending meetings, the sea represented the ‘restless sea of mankind’ according to the watchtower! New light!

  • Jim

    Does John the Baptist need to be part of the “resurrection of judgement”?

    The REST who come to life after the 1000 years, are those in the book of life who come from the grave in verse 13, meaning they are physically dead until after the 1000 years are over, and even dead till after Satan is destroyed for ever.

    The fact that Rev 20:12-14 says the books of life are opened after Satan is destroyed, verifies that these are the REST in verse 5.

    Rev 20:5 “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.”

    Rev 20:7 “Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended,”

    Rev 20:10 “And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur.”

    So the REST do not come to life at least till after Satan is destroyed. So, why after a 1000 years, and after Satan is destroyed would these ones not have grown to perfection yet, if coming to life was a metaphor?

    Then you have to ask yourself; Why is the book of life mentioned being opened after Satan is destroyed, and the grave as giving up the dead in it at that point? Are you to say that the dead in the grave are alive??? Not according to verse 4. You must have DEAD either literal throughout the chapter or metaphor, one can’t pick and choose. If the first resurrection is literal, so is the second.

    Rev 20:13 “and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them,”

    Therefore the REST are physically dead until after Satan is destroyed at the end of the 1000 years.

    Again, does John the Baptist need to be part of the “resurrection of judgement”?

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