How long is judgment day?

//How long is judgment day?

QUESTION: When Christ returns to judge the billions of people for life or death, will it not take years, if not decades, to accomplish this feat/deed?

No. The Scriptures refer to it as “that day,” as in the Lord’s day, or Jehovah’s day —indicating that it is a relatively short period of time, as is a 24 hour day.

Basically, what people do now will determine their fate “in that day” anyway. For example, Jesus indicated that the majority of people (The “many” contrasted with the “few.”) who profess to be Christians are not recognized by the Lord as such. In the seventh chapter of Matthew Jesus illustrated it this way: “Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

So, according to Jesus the many, who prior to “that day” are satisfied with their faith and self-assured of their salvation, will have no standing before Jesus when the judgment begins. 

The Scriptures, in fact, reveal the length of the judgment phase. It is the time, times and half a time prophetic period found in Daniel and Revelation, also expressed as 42 months and 1,260 days. In other words, three and a half years.

Unfortunately, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been deprived of this knowledge by the Watchtower’s cockamamie 1914 doctrine. Supposedly the 42 month period began during the First World War, ending in 1919. As recently as 2014 the Watchtower repeated this nonsensical drivel in the Questions from Readers column.

The truth is —the two witnesses only come on the scene in the post-preaching era. That is why they are dressed in sackcloth, which harmonizes with the prophecy of Joel, which is a vivid depiction of the end of the Christian preaching, teaching and disciple-making work. That is why in Joel “the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, are in mourning. The field has been devastated, the ground mourns; for the grain has been devastated, the new wine has dried up, the oil has failed.” —Joel 1:9-10

“The field” symbolizes exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to as the field. The next verse is even more explicit, saying: “Farmers are dismayed, vinedressers wail, because of the wheat and the barley; for the harvest of the field has perished.” The farmers and vinedressers are not literal agriculture workers. They symbolize the millions of publishers and pioneers who go into the field service on a daily basis. Suddenly, though, disaster stikes. Then, whatever is in the field is lost. That is what is to occur to commence the judgment period.

That is evident by what is stated further on in Joel: “Put on sackcloth and mourn, you priests; wail, you ministers of the altar. Come in and spend the night in sackcloth, you ministers of my God; for grain offering and drink offering have been withheld from the house of your God. Proclaim a fast; call for a solemn assembly. Gather the elders together, with all the inhabitants of the land, to the house of Jehovah your God, and cry to Jehovah for help. Woe because of the day! For the day of Jehovah is near, and it will come like a destruction from the Almighty!”

The Watchtower’s embarrassingly ridiculous interpretation of Joel aside, obviously the priests and ministers of Jehovah are not the clergy of Christendom. They represent anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses who will find themselves overtaken in an unanticipated disaster. Having been led to believe they will be bystanders to the judgment, they will find themselves confronted with it. Hence, the sackcloth.

Back to the two witnesses who prophesy in sackcloth for 1,260 days; their prophesying is in connection with the coming of Christ; no, not that he is coming, but that he has come. They give witness to the fact that they have seen Christ face-to-face. That is what the parousia is all about. That is what the transfiguration vision prefigured, in which Moses and Elijah appeared.

Moses and Elijah are alluded to as the two witnesses. Although not named as such, the fact that the two witnesses perform the same miracles as did Moses and Elijah ought to make the transfiguration connection apparent.

The significance of the appearance of two witnesses is that the world will be judged on the basis of their treatment of them. And, Revelation reveals that the resurrected beast will not only war against the two anointed witnesses, it will kill them. As a result: “Those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not allow their corpses to be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and celebrate, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.”

Not being interred is considered the worst indignity. So, the peoples, tribes, tongues and nations not allowing their corpses to be buried symbolizes that the world will express their contempt for God’s messengers. They will not view the deaths of Christ’s brothers as any loss. They will rejoice and celebrate, just as they would if Jesus himself had been put to death.

And as Jesus indicated in his illustration of the sheep and the goats, the treatment of his brothers in their lowly state is the basis for judgment of the nations. What is done to them is as if done directly to Jesus, personally. 

The deaths of the two witnesses will not take place over an extended period, but at the conclusion of the 42 months. And it is in that context that the scripture says that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.

At the end of the prophesying of the two witnesses all of the 144,000 will be with Christ in heaven. The new covenant will then be concluded. That is why the last verse in the 11th chapter of Revelation says: “And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.”

2017-08-17T13:38:48+00:00 August 17th, 2017|Mailbag|228 Comments
  • Easach of Coimbatore

    What an explanation. It is very shame on the part of wts that though they claim they are anointed they are unable to do what a single man Robert king can do in explaining the Scriptures. I recommend that GB should go for a Bible study with Robert.

    • The Raven

      lol! I have no doubt that some may be watching and learning about these matters in great secrecy as in Christ’s days.

    • Craig Knight

      No, we should all get together as a group and kick out the GB like Rutherford did in his day sort of a coup d’état. Rutherford went against Russell’s wishes and kicked his competition to the curb. He was a lawyer so I guess He knew how to go about it. Anyway, we can all meet up and put on our off the rack suits and ties on (no tight pants or you will give us away!) then we sneak up to the GB conference room and kick them out into the streets like they did recently to the hard workers at Bethel. Then we put Robert there to do all the writing from now on. Anyone want to join me?

      • The Raven

        lol! Not our job, man. The One who’s coming shortly will set it all straight. But hey… I can relate.

        • Craig Knight

          Yeah you’re right of course. I like to laugh about this stuff because it’s better than crying! Ha ha!

        • Easach L S of Coimbatore

          That’s right!!

      • Burt Reynolds

        Ha ha! I think you might be treading on someone’s Jimmy Choos there. ‘Vengence is mine’ sayeth Jehovah. ‘I will repay.’ Not that I don’t like your idea though Craig. It does have a certain appeal.

  • The Raven

    “Basically, what people do now will determine their fate “in that day” anyway. For example, Jesus indicated that the majority of people (The “many” contrasted with the “few.”) who profess to be Christians are not recognized by the Lord as such. In the seventh chapter of Matthew Jesus illustrated it this way: “Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”
    So, according to Jesus the many, who prior to “that day” are satisfied with their faith and self-assured of their salvation, will have no standing before Jesus when the judgment begins.”

    I’ve been seeing much of that of late and I am in agreement with this statement that people are already showing their true natures concerning these matters.
    Thank you Robert for another excellent essay.

    Psalms18:1-3
    18 I have affection for you, O Jehovah, my strength.+
    2 Jehovah is my crag and my stronghold and the One who rescues me.+
    My God is my rock,+ in whom I take refuge,
    My shield and my horn* of salvation,* my secure refuge.*+
    3 I call on Jehovah, who is worthy of praise,
    And I will be saved from my enemies.+

    • Brian

      Indeed, what about Jesus saying to those that thought they were actually feeding and clothing his brothers, those that were so sure that they were feeding the “chosen ones” and the ones that didn’t even know they were actually feeding his brothers, you know which ones he said were actually doing this fine deed????!!!! JW’s think they have been feeding his brothers for ever, I’ figuring they haven’t been doing it for the simple reason they actually stopped the active collection of them in 1935 and ran with what they collected as being the “holy ones”, wow these guys are in for one big shock, also those that actually believe this bunkum as well.

      • The Raven

        I have good reason to believe that there are among those at Bethel brothers of Christ. You and I both know these are not completely stupid or ignorant folks. Do you remember Christ speaking with a pharisee at night, in secret? Come the time of the shakeup I believe we will see what’s what with them.
        I do not believe that Christendom has been feeding Christ’s brothers at all. Not given their history and the fact that they haven’t got much straight either. BUT… when He returns we could very well see individuals from other religions accept Christ as did the Pheonician woman.
        They did not stop the collection of called ones as far as I know. They just are not very accepting of the new ones, or as scripture describes them, the “eleventh hour workers”.

        • Brian

          The point I am trying to make here is to do with what Jesus said about those that have fed his brothers, the point is that those that think they have haven’t and those that didn’t even know they were feeding Jesus brothers are the ones feeding them, Q What do JW’s say in regarding the feeding of his brothers or more to the point who are they saying is feeding them and this should answer my point.

          • The Raven

            This is during tribulation. It doesn’t matter what they say right now. They still think that the preaching work is separating the sheep from the goats, man! lol!

        • Richard Long

          The false parousia doctrine, as Robert has pointed out, would, by implication, mean a de facto end to gathering of the holy ones. The seizure of the FDS mantle was the WT’s double down. Any scripture ever mention a true prophet of Jehovah having to walk back a statement made in the name of Jehovah?

          • The Raven

            But that still does not prove that there are NO called ones among them inside or outside those walls. Not all of them made those false pronouncements, did they? As Max stated the org has silenced those called by issuing policy themselves and throwing away letters from the brothers and sisters. Makes me wonder how many really know what’s been going on.

            • Richard Long

              called ones yes. sealed ones, NONE. However, we were told on “good authority” that the sealing was finished in the thirties, hence the introduction of the “great crowd” (also an ACTUAL parousia event yet future). Further we were told, also on “good authority”, those sealed by token of their faithful death were in fact by that time resurrected and ruling with Christ in heaven. Honest mistakes or outright intentional deceptions?

            • The Raven

              Does this matter at this time? Hasn’t Robert already explained this? That still does not prove anything. And you are very familiar with the delusion they are operating under as well or have we suddeny forgotten that too? Of course there are liars among them but consider the fact that YOU and millions like you were witnesses for years and didn’t have a clue. Now that you do, are you assuming that all of them do as well?
              I have no idea who among them is the MOL and who is truly deluded. Do you?

            • how many leave their church because they find the truth and become one of Jehovah’s friends.
              plenty of stories about how they found he had a name

            • The Raven

              That’s true. I don’t know the percentages but I’d say most are former members of Christendom. They were looking for something that made some darn sense to them besides the trinity, jesus is god, we all go to heaven or hell (in my case) and the earth will perish. It’s all baloney!
              That’s why so many who finally find it feel like they’ve had an epiphany or a m-80 go off in their minds. I know I did.

            • Richard Long

              Nope. I can only see the kind of fruit on the tree and determine what kind of tree it is. I grew as rotten fruit. I give thanks that you never had to bear this guilt.

            • The Raven

              I don’t think you grew as rotten fruit at all. I think you inherently know the truth Richard. I also think you have what many of us do; the basic understanding of Jehovah’s arrangements and of what the promises for us are. You know there is a new world coming with Christ and His brothers as our shepherds and Jehovah Himself as our God. beyond that…it’s, well a bit complicated. But not completely unknowable.

              It’s just a matter of sussing it out, arguing, arm twisting, hair pulling, a few nosebleeds, spitting and railing and hysterics thrown in for giggles and we’ve got a discussion! lol!

              Basically stuff that makes you wonder but in the end, you already have what you need in terms of truth. Don’t doubt that. Our biggest doubts are of a future event we see in fragments right now. I consider many things but I don’t stray into dark corners I’ve already been dragged through. I know what’s there.

            • The Raven

              The excerpts below are from an essay Robert wrote in Oct 2009. Since then we have also learned that the GB may have become nothing but a facade for the real controllers. That would go far in collaborating what Max stated about the treatment of the “anointed” or called ones. He said that their letters and their guidance is no longer considered in any decisions. Makes you wonder what the brothers of Christ have been telling them that they do not want to hear?

              https://e-watchman.com/coming-fall-house-god/

              “Interestingly, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer have legal control over the publishing corporations, such as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and New York. Those corporations are controlled by a board of directors, who are elected by an anonymous 500 member Watchtower Society. Although the Governing Body presumably still retains control over what is taught in the nearly 100,000 congregations worldwide, it is becoming more and more apparent that the day-to-day policy decisions are made in the boardroom and by the Society’s lawyers, and as is the case with most large corporations the emphasis is on the accountant’s “bottom line.”

              The corporate mentality of the world is reflected in the ruthless and legalistic way in which Bethel has dealt with the growing number of victims of child abuse. This is merely one example of how the sheep have been sold and how the “buyers…proceed to kill them” and how “their own shepherds do not show any compassion upon them.”

              Naturally the Society has interpreted this portion of Zechariah to apply to Christendom, but that simply cannot be the true interpretation. Consider the next span of verses, which read: “Shepherd the flock meant for the killing, the buyers of which proceed to kill them although they are not held guilty. And those who are selling them say: ‘May Jehovah be blessed, while I shall gain riches.’ And their own shepherds do not show any compassion upon them.” Here the prophet Zechariah is commanded to intervene as a shepherd in behalf of Jehovah’s abused flock. In this he pictures Jesus Christ, who is the true shepherd. But if the “flock meant for the killing” pictures the masses making up Christendom’s flocks, why does the scripture say “they are not held guilty”? Surely God does not consider the millions of willingly ignorant churchgoers innocent.

              In truth, the buyers of Jehovah’s sheep are not the clergy. The clergy make no pretense to bless Jehovah. It is the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses who say: “may Jehovah be blessed.” Yet, Bethel’s primary concern is not the sheep nor that Jehovah might be blessed. The overriding consideration is the continued existence and financial welfare of the Organization (“while I shall gain riches”).

            • The Raven

              Did you have any thoughts about Zechariah ? Kevin or DA?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              None that I can think of at the moment however here is one of Roberts’ wonderful articles which deals with Zachariah’s prophecies.
              Coming Fall of the House of God.
              https://e-watchman.com/coming-fall-house-god/

  • Craig Knight

    When I was a kid way back when that red Revelation book came out. We were having the Tuesday night book study at our house as usual and when I heard the WTS explanation of the two witnesses, I thought to myself how lame and made up it sounded and I was only 10 or 12 years old. Once again Robert you nailed it as usual. The ring of truth is so refreshing.

    • Burt Reynolds

      How did the watchtower explain the two witnesses? I don’t recall.

      • Craig Knight

        It had something to do with Rutherford and others going to jail as if that was their spiritual death and when they were freed from jail it was like a spiritual resurrection. My older Son recently bought that book online so I will have him send me a copy of the two witness explanation. Compared to Robert’s explanation of the two witnesses, the WT’s is pretty pathetic.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Yes that’s very true. It is pathetic.

    • Jamie Mac

      Hi Craig again :-). Well that is uncanny, that is the same thing that caused alarm bells to start ringing out aloud for me. It sounded totally implausible then and even more so now that you have jogged my memory. I do remember though some answering to the explanation and sounding excited by it. I didn’t get it then and still don’t now.

      Thankfully I found Robert’s site which has opened my eyes and re-invigorated me

      • Craig Knight

        Yeah these doubts pile up over the years. You can only sweep so much dirt under the rug until there is a big ugly mountain to trip over. Ha!

  • Craig Knight

    The WT’s 1919 date to explain the 3 1/2 years is neanderthal in it’s inception. So as I understand it, the Great Tribulation will last for 3 1/2 years. During that time a global reset of the financial system will be attempted and after a period of mad rioting and anarchy the system will be turned over to the king of fierce countenance who will rule for an hour or a short period of time before Christ destroys this wicked world. Some religions say the GT will last 7 years using the 2,520 period in the Bible. But that is incorrect. Do I have this right???

    • The Raven

      This article and especially the comments may be useful to you. Kevin made some very good comments there in detail concerning the days.

      https://e-watchman.com/the-seven-times-of-nebuchadnezzar/

      Bklyn Kevin Leonard k • a year ago
      It’s not what I’m suggesting, that’s what the bible is suggesting

      I’m just saying I’ve noticed whether it’s 70 weeks of years or a literal seven years Jehovah always seems to stay within his divine boundary of seven when accomplishing his purpose, so then why wouldn’t it be the same for the tribulations

      I think the Tribulation refers to a full seven year period while the “Great Tribulation” refers to the second half of the Tribulation witch is three and one half years.

      Lets say that the great tribulation is going to be 3 ½ years like the bible clearly states, then how do we explain Daniel’s 1,290 days as well as his 1.335 days which go over the 3 ½ year time period?.
      Obviously It just does not make any sense at all unless you use a seven year time period or 2,520 days .

      Now 2,520 Days equal
      Seven years and is symbolic of one Biblical week. See Daniel 9:24-27.
      There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your
      people and your holy city.

      First half of the week is 3 ½ years or—–1,260 days
      Second half of the week is 3 ½ years or-1,260 days
      Now add > 1.260 days +1,260 days—-= 2,520 days

      Now subtract Daniel’s 12:11 prophetic days -1.290
      that would mean the disgusting thing gets put
      In place In the first half of the week on day = 1,230

      In the first half of the week on day 1 – one of the heads of the wild beast will be inflicted with a sword-stroke only to revive and put the disgusting thing in place on day 1,230 and misleads everyone on the earth.

      Let the reader take note that the interval between the wild beast
      sword-stroke and the disgusting thing being put in place is the beginning of the time period for meting out divine justice when the four apocalyptic horsemen ride and men become faint out of fear because of the anguish of the nation’s not knowing the way out. Luke 21:25-27 Revelation 6:1-4.

      All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
      Matthew 24:8

      It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the
      signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it
      tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. Revelation 13:14.
      And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they
      will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. Daniel 11:31.

      The disgusting thing that causes desolation will be put in place on day 1,230 in the first half of the week when the seven headed beast revives and springs into the eighth king. Revelation 17:11. At this point – Daniel’s 1,290 days begins.

      Excerpt: How will the end come for the Watchtower?.
      The coming of Christ will coincide with the world erupting in war, the spread of disease pandemics and widespread food shortages. Then, following swiftly will come the Crash – the complete collapse of the political and economic system.

      Jehovah’s Witnesses will then be subjected to an intense period of confusion and doubt. And as Jesus foretold, many will be stumbled.

      Although the Watchtower will be discredited and quite likely cease functioning as a Bible and tract publishing society, apparently it will still exist in some form. But at that point it will stand in complete opposition to Christ. It will then be an antichrist.
      Read more> https://e-watchman.com/how-
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      • Craig Knight

        I never heard of two meanings for tribulation. The tribulation and the great tribulation. What scriptures show 2 tribulations? I find that very interesting. Bklyn Kevin makes some very cool points in fact I copied it to have and study. In Robert’s Nebuchadnezzar article He said:

        So, the seven times may apply to the period of judgment that will commence in the aftermath of the fall of the leading nation of the world. It may be that the seven times are a literal seven years or simply a symbolic period. Time will tell. (No pun intended.)

        So it may be that 7 meaning perfection could be symbolic of the perfect time for God to act but I think God gives the day for a year to us so we can have an idea of the length of the end times. Lots of good info thanks for sharing.

        • The Raven

          It’s more like two 3.5 year periods combined that he is speaking of. The first 3.5 begin with the horsemen; war, famine, pestilence and death. Societal collapse and that period is the beginnings of the tribulation or the beginnings of the pangs of distress. Those who perish during that time are said to be in the grave, not in the lake of fire, so that’s not when judgment begins. There is more thought on this that the Great Tribulation itself begins when the final king rules and that’s when judgement actually begins. This would be after the initial 3.5 years. He then rules for 3.5 years and puts under compulsion everyone. This is when people will make their choice and seal their fate. If I’m not mistaken there is scripture cited in the article or in the comments for that reasoning. If not I can locate some more for you.

          • Craig Knight

            Raven – This all really great stuff you’re laying on me here. It really makes great sense and I dig the part about the first half where a lot of people may die but before judgement which would allow those a Resurrection of the unrighteous. That’s very cool info.

            • The Raven

              I was beside myself when I learned that here. It was like a sense of hope I didn’t have before. I know it sounds bad to say that death from a nuclear war wouldn’t be so bad, but all those who perish at the horsemen’s hands are resurrected. It does help to allay some of the fear associated with this. Here’s some more on the difference between the days:
              https://e-watchman.com/after-the-tribulation-in-those-days/

            • Bklyn Kevin

              More food for thought.

              Concerning the “green vegetation” of the Apocalypse.
              Excerpt:
              at that juncture God’s judgment begins and the first four trumpets herald God’s adverse judgment against his own house. The “third of the earth that was burned up” is Jehovah’s earthly organization. A third means a sizable number, but a minority nonetheless. All four trumpets basically herald the same thing.

              In that context the trees represent the faithless element of the leadership that is over the “green vegetation” and the “green vegetation” symbolizes those under that doomed leadership, who faithlessly follow them after Christ arrives. Read more>
              Apocalypsehttps://e-watchman.com/concerning-green-vegetation-apocalypse/

              All so read The Second Angel Blew His Trumpet .
              https://e-watchman.com/second-angel-blew-trumpet/

            • Burt Reynolds

              Is that a pun Kevin? ‘Food for thought….’the Green Vegetation of the appocolyps ?” Either that or Jehovah is blessing your spell correct with the best humour yet. Wonderful. I would never have thought of that one. I feel humbled. The Green Vegetation indeed ! Marvellous.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Actually Burt there was no pun intended but ironically that’s the way it worked out.
              In fact I hadn’t even noticed it the pun until you brought it to my attention.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! Thanks Kevin! Right after I posted that I HAD to get a better grip on what the green vegetation meant! I was remembering a discussion with Arvid over the thirds of Ezekiel 5 as well.

              5 “As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword for yourself to use as a barber’s razor. Shave your head and your beard, and then take scales to weigh and divide the hair into portions. 2 You will burn a third of it in the fire inside the city when the days of the siege are completed.+ Then you will take another third and strike it with the sword all around the city,*+ and the last third you will scatter to the wind, and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+
              3 “You must also take a few strands of them and wrap them up in the folds* of your garment. 4 And take some more of them and throw them into the fire and incinerate them. From this a fire will spread to all the house of Israel.+
              5 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the middle of the nations, with lands all around her. 6 But she has rebelled against my judicial decisions and my statutes, acting more wickedly than the nations and the lands all around her.+ For they have rejected my judicial decisions, and they did not walk in my statutes.’

              12 A third of you will die by the pestilence* or perish in your midst by famine. Another third will fall all around you by the sword.+ And I will scatter the last third in every direction,* and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+ 13 Then my anger will come to an end, and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be satisfied.+ And they will have to know that I, Jehovah, have spoken in my insistence on exclusive devotion,+ when I have finished unleashing my wrath against them.

            • Craig Knight

              I’m so happy to get this information. It has been a huge depressing problem for me when I see people with nice families, the small children, the old folks and so forth. To think they are all going to die has always bothered me and to be frank has discouraged me. Before I met Robert I felt like I was on death row just waiting for my execution and also everyone I saw would perish too. To be honest I was fuming mad at God. It was a big stumbling block for me and that’s why I told myself I would rather die forever than go back to the lies of the WT. But what a relief to know that many during the first half of the Tribulation will be remembered by Jehovah. I always had this inner feeling that many non JW’s would survive because Jehovah knows the hearts of all Adam’s children. But scriptural backing for this is just wonderful. Thanks so much for steering me in the right direction on this subject. It does lift my spirits for sure. That’s an understatement. My older son will love this info as well.

            • The Raven

              Craig, Anything I can find from Robert’s work, Kevin’s guidance and some of his great insight as well, the scriptures or comments made here that give me a sense of hope I would be glad to share with everyone. I think a lot of us feel like we’re doing time, just stretching it out and existing at the moment. Especially those of us who have lost much and find our lives empty or devoid of meaning at times. I’m like a lot of folks here; we want answers and we need to know that there is much more to us and life than this lie we’re all trapped in right now. Never stop searching His words.

            • Craig Knight

              I have only been here for a brief time and it’s been very therapeutic to be able to openly discuss God’s purpose without being stifled by Elders. I have learned so much and you all have been very encouraging. We have all lost family members due to this cold blooded shunning policy. My sister won’t talk to me or my 86 year old Mother. My younger Brother was an Elder and He never once came to see me from the time I left. We were very close all our lives. Sadly He died at the young age of 53. We all have our horror stories. I recently read the story of Martin Luther. That man was very brave and stood up against the Pope’s and the Catholic church when He could have been killed. I feel like we have a lot in common with Luther because we stand up against this Religion and challenge what they say! That takes courage to do that. Everyone in this forum should be proud of the courageous stand they are making. I use humor to deal with my frustrations so I hope I’m not out of line doing that. But humor does help me to deal with frustration and anger and all the rest of it.

            • The Raven

              You’re in good company, Craig. It’s a shame that miserable policy has destroyed families and relationships and I never understood how anyone could just close off like that. But, revisiting those things can keep you from moving ahead. Many become bitter about it and cannot shake that and it eats away at them. I look at it this way, if I may give some advise since I was never a part of the org; it’s all behind you and you know the truth. You also know that you have a lot more hope than even they first gave you when you had your eyes opened to the basics. That is very valuable and I believe Jehovah leads folks who yearn for His truth to where they will find some answers. Look to what the future holds for all of us, right, wrong and simply befuddled.
              In the end this all goes away. We are left with only Him and eternity where we probably won’t even mention this mess we are in now and if anyone does, I will keel haul him 🙂
              Just kidding. lol! There will be so much to do and see and experience we won’t know how to react at first at what TRUE freedom really is. I can’t wait.
              My humor and music is sometimes WAAAY out of line so don’t worry. I’ve been a black sheep all my life. Sounds like a lot of folks here have too. Hahaha! A flock of black sheep!
              Bah bah!

            • Richard Long

              Bah! Bah!

            • The Raven

              What’d I say Craig? There’s another one! lol!

            • Craig Knight

              Great points Raven! I’ve seen plenty of ex JW’s on youtube who are as angry and bitter as they were the day they were given the boot. So you’re right to just keep focusing on the future. I apologize for venting. But when I watched youtube video’s of others and how they suffered it encouraged me that I wasn’t the only one suffering from WT’s damaging policy’s. So I say things to encourage people to know they aren’t alone. I’m actually very happy since I found sane explanations for scripture here. I have never felt closer to Jehovah than I do now. We have so much to look forward to and even now God wants us to be happy. Eccl 5:20…1 9Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God. 20 For he will not often consider the years of his life, because God keeps him occupied with the gladness of his heart. So Jehovah wants us to be happy people now even in these times. Thanks for your advice and I really don’t want to be keel hauled! I saw that in Mutiny On The Bounty and it don’t look like much fun. Ha!

            • The Raven

              Never apologize for “venting” ! Some here have made an art of it, trust me.
              😉

              I can’t add anything else to what you said. I feel the same way.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things* came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed* the glorious Lord. But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love
              1 Corinthians 2 8-9.him.Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-corinthians/2/

            • Craig Knight

              Wonderful scripture to help us keep our focus on the Kingdom.

            • John 3:16

              You might enjoy this video on Tyndale then. I watched it a little while back and thought it was pretty interesting.

              https://youtu.be/J_whF2WlyDE

            • Craig Knight

              I just finished watching that documentary, Thanks so much for sharing that with me. How anyone can be a part of The Catholic Church or the Church of England is hard to understand. To actually torture and kill people for wanting to make Gods word known to men is truly wickedness! You can see Jehovah moving men like Tyndale and Martin Luther to get his word out to the common people. It’s inspiring to know what brave people have done to get God’s word to the whole world. I’m going to try and find that movie “God’s Outlaw.” Thanks again!

            • John 3:16

              You’re welcome. John Wycliffe’s story is another interesting one if you haven’t read it. Power and greed is the only way to explain what the Catholic Church was doing in those times. They wanted a monopoly on God’s word so they could control and exploit the people. The irony of it all is that, despite people now having access to the Bible, the people are still slaves to religion.

            • Actually, Wycliffe was up against the Church of England, which was basically the British version of the Catholic Church. But they were both enemies of the Bible, that’s for sure.

            • John 3:16

              Thanks for the correction. You’re right, it was the Church of England. Been a little while since I read his story. Both of them were nothing but pure evil, all in the name of God supposedly. The one place the people should have been able to find hope (God’s word) the churches made sure all they found was fear.

            • Actually, you were right. I think I stand corrected. Wycliffe lived before Henry the VIII broke free from the Vatican. The Catholic Church was still in control. I was thinking of Tyndale, who lived later.

            • John 3:16

              Lol. Well, either way, Catholic Church + Church of England = bad 🙂

            • Craig Knight

              I’ll have to check out John Wycliffe’s story. Thanks for the tip. I think most people attached to Christendom’s religion’s don”t even make an attempt to read the Bible those who do don’t challenge their goofy teachings. Most people use religion as a last result crutch but don’t take it seriously.

            • John 3:16

              I would say that, no matter the religion, once people are comfortable most of them won’t challenge the teachings. A lot of people stay with the religion they were raised in. I just looked up the statistics and it was lower than I expected, but it is still over half. Take into account the number of people I’ve known that had to convert for the sake of marriage (which means they don’t even take it seriously) and I wonder how much higher that number climbs? All of this points to people not wanting to go outside their comfort zone, JW’s included. How much can truth really matter to someone if they just sit there and let someone else tell them what the truth is? We’re supposed to, as an individual, test all things.

            • Craig Knight

              That’s a real good point! People change religions like changing their shoes or like you say just stay with their family religion. When JW’s wake up that comfort zone can turn into anxiety and panic and depression etc. It does take courage to get out of that big soft cozy chair and jump into the hot seat.

            • John 3:16

              I’ve heard so many people laugh when they said that in order to get married they had to switch religions. You’re right. They may as well have been changing their shoes, it mattered so little to them. With the JW’s it is a bigger deal. If you’re a Catholic, you’re still going to keep all your friends if you decide to be a Lutheran. There may be the occasional exception, but it would really surprise me. At best, a family member might get mad. But with the Witnesses, they’re so sure they have it right that to question anything is to question Jehovah Himself. To be fair, while it is a comfort zone thing also, I guess there is more to it compared to some other religions. It’s literally your life. It does take courage, and I’m glad that we have a support group here for those that have challenged what they were taught.

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah this support group is a great place. I just about fell out of my chair when I found Roberts youtube channel. I was searching for what was wrong with JW’s because I knew there was truth there but also obvious error. James 3:11 Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring? For Christain’s who don’t give up seeking truth God will not leave us in the lurch forever.

            • Daisy

              Could also be describing the WT religion there John…power and greed and wanting a monopoly on God’s word so that they can control and exploit people! That’s only my feeling on the matter, but im still appreciative of the truths that CT Russell brought to us in the beginning.

            • Huldah

              Sadly, the four horseman will most likely effect the lowly and poor in underdeveloped lands who are living lives of subsistence now, the most.
              It is just, however, that they will get a second chance as their opportunities to learn the truth are so.much less than those in more developed lands. The four horsemen will kill them, but also preserve their eternal future. A bit of a mind bender.

            • The Raven

              I cannot say that for certain. It would seem to me that nations with nukes are prime targets.

            • Richard Long

              I’m going to weigh in on the other side and postulate the third world has the “easiest” time of it. All of their resources have already been stolen. and they may be perceived by the elite as an easier population to control.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Craig, are you an old hippy? You write like a spaced out 1960s with all the digging and laying it on and the cool and the deep! Were you at the summer of love in San Francisco? Should we break out the strides, freak out, and groove on down the road man? That would be really be far out.

            • Craig Knight

              My older Brother was a hippie and did the LSD thing and the whole 9 yards. But I was into surfing and all that groovy jazz man. I used to play the sax so that makes me Joe cool ya dig?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I can dig that. California Dreaming!

        • Huldah

          Even the WT org says there a two distinct tribulations. They say the”tribulation of those days” as in what Jesus said about certain events such as the sun being darkened would come “immediately after the tribulation of those days”, is actually the fall of BTG.
          Then they point to a separate Great Tribulation.
          The aforementioned actually appears to be the collapse of the US or something along the lines of what Raven described as the first part.

          • Craig Knight

            After 28 years out of WT there are some things WT taught that I never really knew. I thought I was a good little student but apparently not. But it sure is good to get a better understanding of that subject.

            • Huldah

              Ciro Aulicino, a longtime Bethelite, gave a talk after 911 on the “What the Near Future Holds”
              I think thats where I heard this point, obscure, but I think I later found it in a WT too. At any rate, no great loss to you as the interpretation is still inaccurate.

      • Burt Reynolds

        That’s a really clear reasoning. I aught to print it out and keep it. I have difficulty keeping these things in my mind. Never was a mathematician.

        • The Raven

          Kevin did a fantastic job on that. I have it saved as well.

      • Huldah

        I second Burt. Nice explanation.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I think you are right, but a bit hard on the old Neanderthals. I doubt if they would have fallen for the watchtower’s reasoning.

      • Craig Knight

        That’s a good one Burt! Even they could have seen thru that silliness! Lol!!!

    • Brian

      The Great Tribulation may only last weeks given the fact that of the destruction that can be “accomplished” in this era that we live in, I am not so sure that the GT is in fact to be figured into the time frame as it is still only a sign that “he is near at the door”, I would think that any “countdown” may actually begin when the “Disgusting thing stands in the holy place”, then there could very well be 2520 days/7 years until everything is brought to a finish. Please bare in mind the I’s and the would’s and may’s!

      • Burt Reynolds

        Let’s hope you’re right. Any time is too long for the tribulation to last.

        • Brian

          Burt, as it is stated that the killing carnage will be cut short lest all be destroyed, of course this is only a part of it. The tribulation is said to be the worst that mankind has ever seen or will ever see again, seeing as how the flood would have been the actual worst thing the tribulations “attributes” must really only describe what man has done to and will do to himself and this will be the worst he will have ever enacted upon himself. The floods entire time frame could very well be an indication of the the tribulation/killing that will be meted out, could being the operative word here.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Let’s hope so, but it reminds me of Christ’s words….’ if it be you will, let this cup pass from me, but not as I will, but as your will be done’. I suppose if Jehovah wills that we live, it shall be so. And if we are alive, he will be providing. We need not fear. Time is not the essence. Faith is. I sometimes try to look upon Jehovah as my personal bomb shelter. It free, for one thing. Full of spiritual and physical food, protects all my family and can keep everything and everyone out. As Robert says…..’bring it on…’

      • The Raven

        The beginnings of the pangs of distress starts the tribulation of “those days”. That is the initial onset of the horsemen and what they bring. We could very well see three and a half years before these folks leave their bunkers and regroup. In the meantime, one fourth of humanity will have perished. The final 3.5 years would be the actual time of the decision when people are forced to take the mark. But even there, considering the scope of the king’s power that may happen quickly towards the final days. There is still the matter of the final prophetic campaign by the anointed. Five months. This will be towards the finale as well. And of course I also offer the usual disclaimers! But Kevin’s numbers look about right given the overlap and time beyond 3.5 years.

  • Huldah

    When Robert mentioned the two witnesses having seen Christ then proclaiming it, I immediately thought of the scripture that says that there will be those saying ‘Christ is here or there, in the inner chambers’, etc..
    Could the two be related?
    Could the Antichrists begin their own campaign to claim a special connection to Christ in opposition to his true anointed?
    I also thought of how the apostles were reluctant to believe the women who reported seeing Christ after his resurrection. They wanted to see for themselves.
    Perhaps there is some test of faith in trusting the reports of the two witnesses rather than needing to see him physically ourselves.

    • The Raven

      I had the same thought when I first read this years ago and IMO it may have to do with certain groups who are even now claiming that Christ will return to physical Israel and rule from a rebuilt temple. It may be a literal ploy to deceive many. The beast is ridden by the harlot and that is significant when considering a false messiah’s arrival. There may be something to that as you say and after the deception has ensnared many the beast destroys her, leaving only him. The two witnesses will be prophesying something we may be already familiar with whereas the false Christs will be saying something only meant to get us to follow and worship them. I don’t know for certain but if the deception is powerful enough to fool even the elect if possible, then it’s a bad one for sure.

      • Huldah

        The most disturbing thing about this idea is that my instincts are telling me this misdirect will come from prominent ones inside the JW organization. Wasn’t it Robert who said that the”inner chambers” could be Bethel?
        The evil slave is now carrying on the 1914 deception. Their attitude is like the Pharisees who were afraid Jesus would make them lose ‘their place and their nation’ so they killed him.
        They disfellowship ones like Robert who expose their lies. It’s no stretch of the imagination to perceive that they will make whatever claims necessary to keep their power and discredit the real manifestation of Christ’s presence, by claiming their own special presence of Christ. They have already laid claim to a ” special presence” through the 1914 doctrine. Most JWs will believe prominent men rather than humble ones who, outside the formalistic JW religion, have actually seen Christ. Just as the apostle’s prejudice against women caused them to be unwilling to believe Christ appeared to such a lowly class first.

        No doubt Christendom will have it’s false Christs, but that has always been the case. It appears that the extraordinary and noteworthy thing about this prophecy is, not that BTG will be proclaiming false Christs, but that JW will be.

        • Brian

          There will be plenty of things to come out of “Christendom” before and during Jesus inspection of the congregations, they are still in their relative positions as they are still “putting their faith in Jesus albeit in many cases with a poor effort in regards to their “flocks”. Christendom has not been judged by Jesus as yet, it is only the JW’s due to their bogus “the Kingdom has come” and Jesus inspected them and rejected them in 1919 malarkey that many people still hold dearly to, I know it is easy and simple to hold on to this mind set but if Jesus hasn’t come and “inspected the congregations” and judged them nor should anyone else lest they actually have a judgement brought down upon them by Jesus when he actually does inspect congregations.

          • The Raven

            There is a good bit of reason to this and I’m inclined to think that the deception will encompass all.

          • Huldah

            Funny you bring up the inspection of the congregations.
            I think I promised Richard a further discussion of this topic. Why not start here?
            What do you think?
            It is interesting to note that Jesus told the congregations in Revelation that he was “coming quickly” and “standing at the door”
            Rev.3
            His inspection of the congs apparently occurs before his presence begins, when many of the congregations are in a weakened and disobedient state.
            It sure appears to me that we are there right now. So, is he now standing in the middle of the lampstands/congregations inspecting already?
            Interestingly, in the parable if the ten virgins,
            Half are distracted with buying oil when he arrives ‘at the door'(ie standing at the door and knocking)
            It’s later that he opens and separates the wise or true anointed from the false and foolish anointed virgins, during his actual presence (opening of the door as opposed to just standing there knocking).
            We are so close to his presence. Are we already at his inspection of the 7 congregations, ie, all of them?

            • The Raven

              Maybe we should be looking for some event or pronouncement that signifies that may be the case. After the banning in Russia there are more nations also looking to ban them. Eventually they will have to acknowledge or admit that they are going in reverse. That has not happened yet. But maybe they will never admit it. I’m still not certain their situation is the only thing we need to look at here. It is also possible that as the world gets dangerously closer to war, that may be a good indicator of Christ’s proximity as well.

            • Brian

              That “inspection” could very well come at the very same time as the world blows up, literally blows up, Those that “live by the sword will die by it” and this seems to be addressed to all of those that are “called”, it has no meaning for any that aren’t. I don’t think the inspection has started, as it is said to be a letter to the 7 congregations in Asia, now whether the literal letter is what is written in Rev or it is something that takes place to jolt those into “action” is yet to be seen but it certainly seems to be something to get them back on track or be judged accordingly. This is why I don’t believe that the JW’s are the representation of all of the congregations in Rev as they have claimed for themselves for so long, simply because the judging didn’t take place back when they claim Christendom was judged and it is still an event to take place, maybe they will “be it” but that is up for Jesus to determine.

          • Beverly kenyon

            ????

          • The Raven

            No one has been inspected or judged yet. WWIII will shake out a lot of things world wide. Many folks in the org and in Christendom are operating under a delusion or lies. Once that is shattered by mankind doing the unthinkable in some people’s minds, that’s when we begin to see where people will shift and move and to who. Christendom more so than the JW are very prone to being misled as they have been known to follow governments and support war throughout their history. But that does not rule out individuals.

            • Brian

              Indeed Christendom maybe led astray more easily but at the end of it all we stand as individuals and not as a group, people may have collective thoughts on this but still stand alone, even “the gathering of yourselves together” is for support but are still on their own when faced with Jesus. Keep in mind the JW’s are in expectation of the Kingdom arriving in some way shape or form or some manifestation of it as do those in other groups so all of them could be misled when the false kingdom is set up, I’d wager that those setting it up under Satan’s guidance and authority will have this things words catch the attention of all those in expectation of the real Kingdom to hoodwink them into following it, it seems to work according to Rev as ” they all worship the beast” and later it’s image, it will be very convincing to the point that I should imagine people will be killed by it’s followers for simply identifying it as being the false Kingdom.

            • The Raven

              I am still of the opinion that Jehovah does have His people and the jws WILL fit that bill in the future. But I also know that they will be joined. Not many, as scripture states, but still joined by some who will not take the mark and do good by Christs brothers.
              As I’ve said in my comments above, we seem to be in agreement over a false kingdom and messiah.

            • Brian

              They may fit the bill, they may not also and from where I am viewing it there is a good chance they will get a good kick in the coit in the very least. I am of the belief that he will have “his people” and his people are really only the ones that will be chosen, as it is stated for the rest even the “other flock” are all considered to be dead and I’m pretty sure he ain’t counting the dead as the “chosen”, of course this doesn’t actually happen until Jesus turns up to sort those vying to be chosen “in the conclusion of the system of things” when “the Kingdom of the heavens will become like”. Wheat weeds, fish sheep/goats etc.

            • i think its obvious i feel the same.

              Isaiah 19:23-25 is one place to read that

            • The Raven

              Yep. Thanks, DA.

            • ‘Christendom maybe led astray’, thats comical.

              Jehovah’s people will face Jesus by calling on Jehovah by name. something Christendom does not do at all. and by Christendom you mean Bayblon because that is what scripture calls it. and Bayblon sects of course are not the congragations of Christ which is why its distinctly called Babylon not Christ kingdom – Jerusalem. Jerusalem of course being the headquarters where the disgusting thing stood at the time Christains stopped congragating and fled placing Jerusalem across the globe and continuing as a people called by God’s name Jehovah today. – ?Act 15:17 ?2-Cor 7:14 ?Amos 6:12

              Babylon is already led astray. you make no sense.

            • The Raven

              He may be speaking to something far greater than even they have been doing now during the great tribulation when all the world is deceived. If I’m not mistaken I think he realizes that they and the wto will be part of BTG during that time. At present you are correct about them collectively. We were also speaking of individuals who may be found among even them that may be on the peripherals and will know the truth. I only recently was made aware by Kevin that it is a possibility.

            • Brian

              Maybe they will maybe they won’t. Can you please tell me when exactly did “Christendom” become rejected by or through the judgement of Jesus??

            • The ultimate judgment of Jesus is when he says to the many: “Get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you.” So, it is not that Jesus will reject them, as if he had formerly recognized them as his disciples and that they had his approval but lost it. No, Jesus has never accepted them or recognized them as his followers.

            • Brian

              So what you are saying then is that there really isn’t any need for a separation of the sheep and the goats because apparently this has already happened???? When? For anyone to be rejected they have to be seen as actually standing in the position of being a follower of Jesus in the first instance, there is no point in rejecting them as “poor” followers otherwise.
              The “get away from me you workers of lawlessness”, this is actually in reference to those that “didn’t make the cut” to be chosen as Gods sons which means they were in amongst those in the running and therefore called for the purpose of being chosen, it is all in relation to the entry to the kingdom of the heavens.

            • The goats are people of the nations all who are not approved. That would include Muslims, atheist, Hindus, whatever.

            • Daisy

              Throughout history, and still today in parts of Africa and Asia, sheep and goats are almost identical, and no-one but a shepherd can easily tell the difference.
              So the application of the parable would be that outward conformity ( being part of the herd) isn’t all that’s required of us.
              There is something that only our Shepherd can see, in us and other individuals, and that unseen thing tells our Shepherd whether we are ? or ?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Daisy, that’s fantastic and thank goodness it’s the Shepherd that can tell whose sheep or whose goats as its the Shepherd that does the separating work as man only sees the outward appearance and not a person’s heart. Heb4:12.

            • Brian

              Not only that but “man” likes it lord it over his fellow man once he has got that ones ear, mind and soul. Do not put you trust in noblemen and the sons of earthling man, says it all really!

            • Brian

              Robert, in relation to the sheep and the goats scripture who does it say to “come, inherit the Kingdom that was prepared for you from before the founding of the world”?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Brian said to Robert King • 5 days ago
              “what you are saying nullify Romans 10:9 “For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved”.??

              “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Matthew 7:21 WHY?

              Because faith by itself, without works, is dead. Read more>
              Faith without works is dead James 2:14-26
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/james/2/#v59002014-v59002026

            • Brian

              Indeed as it says and in fact most people won’t enter the Kingdom of the heavens and I never said they would but you do seem to say who will and who won’t, this is another point I am trying to make, it’s not up to you or me or Robert or anyone else to say, it’s not even up to Jesus as it is Jehovah/God that only knows this. Kev, do you consider yourself to be “alive” or dead seeing as those that see themselves as being only one of the so called Great Crowd (which indecently doesn’t actually appear until after the Great Tribulation) are also considered to be “dead” in Gods eyes, how does that fit? The point of Romans is that first you have to exercise the faith is the risen Jesus and then verify this by what you actually do (which probably doesn’t include handing out bible tracts), treat your neighbour as yourself would certainly be one of those works. I see most people in “Christendom” as excising faith in Jesus as risen, their works well that could be another story but I am not going to judge them, I’ll let Jesus do that.

            • “this is another point I am trying to make, it’s not up to you or me or Robert or anyone else to say, it’s not even up to Jesus” “but I am not going to judge them, I’ll let Jesus do that.”

              as if Keven needs to be told that because he doesnt realize that already. Robert & Keven arent judging anyone and nobody has said you are either. the scripture says “no man was able to number”. we get that. i even know Jehovah’s witnesses attending local Kingdom Hall’s who get upset at the notion as if only those associated with the WT will be saved. Kevin was just pointing out the facts and fact is at present time if someone is worshipping a trinity or in a once saved always saved religion, they need to reject that dogma and find themselves a local Kingdom Hall to attend or get a real bible study and actually learn who Jehovah is. “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved” – Joel 2:32

              Robert has pointed out, even in todays essay, that Jehovah has temporarily given his throne to Jesus exalting him to the highest place possible and “In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge,”. ~ John 5:22.
              i dont see Keven or Robert claiming to be that judge but Jesus brothers will be doing some Judging too, or “Don’t you realize that…”? – 1-Cor 6:1-3 Rev 20:4

            • Brian

              As soon as you say that all of those don’t belong to “Gods organisation “, i.e. the Watchtower and will die due to this you are judging them, I’m not sure how you don’t get that. If there are many people that profess union in or with Jesus, right or wrong in your eyes and you or others make a claim that they aren’t this is also judging them and it is NOT your job to do so, in fact you are required to treat them all as brothers in Jesus until such time as he comes to separate them. It would appear the Watchtower has done a good number on you too.

            • Richard Long

              Brian, in case you’re not “officially” aware of it. the WT does in fact teach exclusivity and that it is impossible for our faith to be shared bi-laterally with anyone not JW. Essentially, we can proselytize, period. We can teach WT/GB religion all day, but must never accept as valid another believer’s confession of faith, because from on high at bethel we are propagandized to the effect that Christ must have been mistaken when he said at Mark 9:40 “For whoever is not against us is for us”

              You keep banging on this as long as you can, but frankly I can only guess where you get the strength!.

            • wrong. i did not say that and i am not the judge. read it again. i spoke the truth. you act like one of those annoying girls who say ‘stop judging me’ (read quote using annoying girl voice).
              nobody here teaches that dummy. what dont you get? if anyone wishes to stick to the Watchtower idol placing it above Jehovah then they are making a “covenant with death”. you really dont even know what this site is even about do you. ive had a good number yet youre the one always trippin on God’s organisation and the WT blah blah blah

            • Brian

              Therein lies one the biggest problems of all, you deluded ones think that God has “chosen” an organisation, biggest load of bollocks as they (JW’s)are NOT the administration at the full limit of the appointed times which is where this, one of the biggest furphy’s comes from in the beginning, you know you don’t have to remain deluded for ever! You don’t realise that your belief that they are Gods organisation comes from them stating near on 100 years ago that all of the other “Christian groups were judged and found unworthy” and here you people are still maintaining and believing the BS lies, you know to well that that hasn’t happened but you still go believing the lie, well unless you have some hidden away information that eludes to this but I’m betting you don’t!
              You and the rest of them are judging others, as simple as stating that you are “God’s organisation” you are elevating yourself above others, simplistically you are saying if you don’t join our club you are dead, you people need to be real careful in what you say lest judgement come upon you.

            • what “other Christain groups” are you talking about?
              i havent judged any group. i have spoken the truth. Jehovah’s witnesses are followers of Christ duh and i have not elevated myself above anyone. if telling the truth elevates me and you dont like it, then that sounds like a personal problem.

              ive said no such thing about joining any club or you will die.

            • Daisy

              I’m really enjoying your logic and reasoning Brian.
              Very insightful 🙂

            • You might want to get his email so you can continue to enjoy his “insights.”

            • Daisy d

              What a good idea Robert. You’re full of them 🙂
              Brian:
              Patrihepburn@gmail.com

            • Brian

              Who made Kevin and Robert the all knowing overlords, have they been chosen already???

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Sometimes you just have to shake the dust off your feet and move along.
              Matthew 10:14.

              Follow Paul’s example closely. 2 Timothy (8-13)
              Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in I·coʹni·um, in Lysʹtra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.

              Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-timothy/3/#v55003008-v55003013

            • Brian

              Are you kidding, there you go again thinking that you a mightier than thou, same could be said for you lot but of course you are in “God organisation” so it couldn’t be could it.
              To “shake the dust from your feet” was in relation to them not accepting Jesus as the son of God and the potential position in the Kingdom which is the good news. but you already knew that didn’t you Kev!? I have accepted the fact that Jesus came in the flesh, died to release mankind from sin and death, that he is the only begotten son of God and he has been handed over everything from the father, what part of this don’t you understand when you are accusing me of being ignorant or dismissive and that someone needs to “dust their feet off” because I don’t necessarily agree with with part of their beliefs?? Did you ever get your foot squashed in the door when you were out “witnessing” Kev??

            • Brian, It is apparent that you don’t have anything positive to contribute to discussions here. I am prohibiting you from commenting in the future.

            • Old lady brady

              A Christian race-hating anti-semetic bigot can stay on your site but your going to silence and bar true Christians? . How do you make that one out?!. Everything Brian has written is true and you know it! You also allow these bigots to call Christian women the most disgusting names. Hope your pleases with yourself!.

            • Hi Old Lady Brady. I don’t allow any discussion over my banning someone from commenting. I have banned you too.

            • ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-prophetic-significane-of-moab2013711the-prophetic-significane-of-moabthe-prophetic-significane-of-moab/

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-judgment-of-moab/

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/will-christendom-survive-end-watchtower/

              Edom, Moab and Ammon… – Christendom = “Babylon”

              maybe Babylon won’t be led astray?
              nonsense. as if it were ever not astray.

              when did Babylon become rejected or judged by Jesus?

              “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,”

              ever hear of Cyrus? took Babylon out. that is a foreshadow of things to come last i checked.

              pre-recorded judgment ? Rev 17:16 Rev 18:2

              that’s a tricky question. suggesting when he rejects Babylon the Great, One would have to convey there was a time Jesus accepted the Harlot in the first place but the judgment of the prostitute has already been determined via God’s word the Bible.

              “when God determined that Judah ought to be punished for the reproach they had brought upon his name the Moabites revealed their deep-seated animosity and were gleeful and in support of the Chaldean killers. For that reason God also determined to destroy Moab.”

              the Harlot, “will be judged by God and annihilated by the king of the north when he goes forth in his great rage.”

              “ALL evangelical groups” Brian is trying to pawn-off as God’s people is in reality the Moabite woman – Babylon the Great, not the representation of Jehovah’s witnesses who are God’s people and temple.

              so by putting forward the idea that all Christendom groups or sects of Babylon are God’s people, he is in effect suggesting to stay in Babylon instead of getting out of her

              read Numbers ch25

              .

            • ghfgjjfhfjjejdjejfjfjjdjfjddhtgyh

            • (disqus = crap)

              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/625f1ddbd2649fc9a0061251a6af6a15a5149e268165814dd8e31258867186f7.jpg

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-prophetic-significane-of-moab2013711the-prophetic-significane-of-moabthe-prophetic-significane-of-moab/

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-judgment-of-moab/

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/will-christendom-survive-end-watchtower/

              Edom, Moab and Ammon… – Christendom = “Babylon”

              maybe Babylon won’t be led astray?
              nonsense. as if it were ever not astray.

              when did Babylon become rejected or judged by Jesus?

              “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,”

              ever hear of Cyrus? took Babylon out. that is a foreshadow of things to come last i checked.

              pre-recorded judgment ? Rev 17:16 Rev 18:2

              that’s a tricky question. suggesting when he rejects Babylon the Great, One would have to convey there was a time Jesus accepted the Harlot in the first place but the judgment of the prostitute has already been determined via God’s word the Bible.

              “when God determined that Judah ought to be punished for the reproach they had brought upon his name the Moabites revealed their deep-seated animosity and were gleeful and in support of the Chaldean killers. For that reason God also determined to destroy Moab.”

              the Harlot “will be judged by God and annihilated by the king of the north when he goes forth in his great rage.”

              “ALL evangelical groups” Brian is trying to pawn-off as God’s people are in reality a composite Moabite-like woman – Babylon the Great, not the representation of Jehovah’s witnesses who are God’s people and temple.

              so by putting forward the idea that all evangelical groups or Christendom sects of Babylon are God’s people, he is in effect suggesting to stay in Babylon instead of getting out of her.

              read Numbers ch25

              .

            • Brian

              I am not trying to pawn off anything, all I am indicating is that the Watchtower lied (once again) about the judgement that was supposed to have taken place upon “Christendom” back in 1919, if you know when it happened can you let me know please.
              Now what you are trying to do is use a judgement that you know very well hasn’t happened to promote one group over others and this in fact the job of the angels and Jesus WHEN THEY ARRIVE. So what you and many others are doing is actually JUDGING people from a self elevated position, reminds me of people that Jesus spoke of….Pharisees spring to mind here.

            • you need to learn the difference between (accurate) observation and judging.

              can you let us know if the “temple of Jehovah” know and use his name?
              can you let us know who are called by Jehovah’s name and make his name known because they are calling on him by name? can you let us know what specific lies the MOL operates and where he sits? i can and its archived throughout this site. it doesnt take judging people to learn but it does require good judgment

            • Brian

              An observation is one thing, judgement what you and the watchtower are doing is entirely another thing. Making a judgement on peoples actions and beliefs for you own benefit is fine, calling down judgement on others in regards to their relationship with Jesus is not for you or anyone else to judge. I am not getting into petty arguments over the use of the creators name especially when he has given ALL, i.e. everything over to Jesus to sought out, manage etc. Yes we ask prayers through Jehovah but then so would the Jews and Muslims to Allah (God), but Christians are separated by asking the father in Jesus name so in Jesus name he is the focus. Tell me please, when you became a baptised JW did you confess unity with Jesus or Jehovah?

            • i havent called down judgment on others. Jehovah is the judge. that isnt my place. again you need to learn the difference between telling the truth and sentencing. the truth speaks for itself. you are a petty argument for sure

            • Brian

              Yes you have and so has every other JW but of course this is not only exclusively their domain as many “Christian” groups partake in the same activities that “bring glory to themselves”by denouncing others that are labouring under the apostasy . You seem confused judging and sentencing are two entirely different things, one precedes the other. “Petty”? Are you familiar with the term “the pot calling the kettle black”?
              Indeed many in “Christendom” confuse Jesus with the father although he is also a father but this thinking is also a product of the apostasy and the delusion that you think that the JW’s are exclusively under the spell of it. As stated in the letters to the angels of the 7 congregations (which you also think are just the JW’s) are all of the attributes good and bad that are levelled at ALL of the congregations that putting or supposedly putting their faith in JESUS.
              Telling the “TRUTH” does not appear to be an attribute of the Watchtower and this is where you appear to have received all of your hate and disdain for the others that call on Jesus.

            • Beverly kenyon

              ALL organised Christianity is under some sort of delusion and apostasy and is not exclusive to JW’s only even though its members are oblivious to it claiming to be “in the truth” when they’re labouring under one of the biggest lie fed to them….the 1914 lie. Oh, the irony of being “in the truth” when truth should be found in the individual. Makes reading the letters to the congregations of ALL organised Christianity in Revelation 2 all the more exciting of how the Lord, Jesus Christ views them in the spiritual state they’ve ALL fallen into maybe with the exception of ‘Smyrna’. Would love to know the symbolism of ‘Smyrna’ as it is a group of Christians, is it an individual, is it attributes of being a Christian?? Can’t seem to expand my mind to wrap around who modern ‘Smyrna’ could be? Back to digging for Bible gems.

            • Brian

              Beverly, indeed it is interesting to look at the contents of those “letters” to the congregations although I have never really tried to identify who fits what although I have looked at Pergamum and their tolerance of the sect of teaching of the Nicolaitans and this, with some of the “Christian” groups seems to have become the focus of their “work in the Lord” i.e. literally feeding the poor and underprivileged and whilst this is an honourable thing to do (the Witnesses have never done it) it should not be the focus and Jesus example with the “wasted oil” that could have been sold to feed the poor and him telling them that you will always have them is another way of saying that the focus is on Jesus and “spiritual up-building” or thoughts to that effect.
              They are also are seen to have acceptable attributes: “I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me”………..

            • Beverly kenyon

              It really is fascinating stuff Brian when a person stops being ‘blinkered’ and having a narrow scope, stop thinking that there’s one special group of people to God and if you’re not a member of them, well, you and the majority of mankind are excluded when my thought was the Christ died for ALL mankind. I suppose the letters to congregations applies to ALL organised Christian groups in one way or another as they make use of their ‘talents’ some more than others like the example you give. There is room for improvement for all of them but as Jesus points out to them they’re lacking in one way or another. And it’s fantastic to see how Jesus Christ knows and sees everything about them, about all their deeds and misdeeds and warns them of the consequences. It was months ago Brian it hit me that Jesus in the letters was talking to ALL Christian groups so therefore God did not have a ‘special’ group of people as ALL of organised Christian groups were as bad as each other, some more so and they were ALL plagued by the same problems we read about concerning them and Satan has established himself in all of them. He doesn’t even attempt to hide himself say for instance, in the Catholic Church where he really does sit as a God along with the “princes” in their Dagon fish hats, he’s very prominent in that group. Imo.

            • Brian

              Yes Beverly these are my thoughts on what I have read also and I have looked at this way for some time now. When Jesus does arrive to sort it out it is stated that for “an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him”, the fact that the heavens are mentioned would indicate that this is the Kingdom itself and I should imagine the representation on earth here will be those that are “corralled” in unity with Jesus by Jesus, i.e. his brothers as he “shakes the nations”and they will come out. No one else would be included in this, not the “great crowd”either but it will OK for them so long as they don’t harass these brothers of Jesus as it suggest some may or will.Satan is obviously very prominent in some of these groups leadership but the letters reveal this to be case and part of the warnings for them to get their house in order, how those letters to the “angels of the congregations” are made manifest we don’t know or maybe it is simply that they may just have to read the contents of Rev and self reflect….who knows!

            • Brian

              The MOL has been around since before the passing of John as has the apostasy. Another misnomer is thinking that it specifically associated with the watchtower only.

            • wrong.

              those who make up the “temple of Jehovah” are known by his name and are in “union” by it. so simple. if you think all religious sects take part in that as a united sanctuary then you seriously are a tard. his people are called by his name and make him know by it. they dont remove it. you cant escape that fact. Jehovah lets the delusion go out all the way up until the day Jesus removes him. what delusion? the lie that the last days are already here along with Christ second coming.

              “The MOL has been around since before the passing of John”

              so what. and they died like John too.
              the MOL alive today will be promoting that very lie Paul speaks about right in among Jehovah’s temple until he is removed by Jesus.

              you promote the same bs that the Watchtower does. you say Jesus will remove from Christendom everything that causes sin and all who do evil as if that is his accepted kingdom. you say that his Kingdom is divided into sects that are not in union by knowing God by name but reject his holy name and think he is a trinity. his congregations are not composed of people with a nameless God who are not called by his name.

              “the temple of” who?
              “the temple of Jehovah”

            • Brian

              Jehovah’s temple= JW’s, now there something to have a laugh over. What do you think of what is meant by the statement about God shaking the nations so that all of the desirable ones will come out from them (paraphrase), it doesn’t mention anything about “shaking his people” to get the desirable ones, wow they have done a number on you although you are certainly not alone! Did you get a chance to ponder over and come up with the date (year, decade or even century will suffice) that when JW’s were “chosen” from out of the world by Jesus and the angels??

            • The Raven

              Hi, DA. I was wondering about this statement:

              “you promote the same bs that the Watchtower does. you say Jesus will remove from Christendom everything that causes sin and all who do evil as if that is his accepted kingdom.”

              I did not know the wto actually holds that position. I found an article on this matter and their thinking is a confusing mess. The book, ” The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah, How?” is where this appears.

              https://e-watchman.com/this-is-what-jehovah-has-said/

              I don’t think many jws or even their detractors know this. It’s remarkable and strange. I’d like to know what more of your thoughts are on this, if you have time.

            • i wrote a lot but then took it off cause i dont know what to say.

              “I don’t think many jws or even their detractors know this.”

              thats how Satan warps their thinking so they cant reason well.
              try talking the truth to Jehovah’s witnesses who are out in field service, you’ll see how bad they are in meekness and how stupid they are and idk what word to discribe it but just some asinine bias without cause in trying to correct you when theres nothing to correct but they try to invent something to make you out to be in wrongness; that youre in a bad way. talking to them is torture most the time. you’ll see their strong delution. its the Ones more plesent to talk to and more reasonable that i hope to find so they’ll be happy finding the truth i tell them.
              Jehovah’s the only one that can really wake them out of their crap

              idk what to say today Raven

            • David

              Question, I see Jehovah as a just and true God. So, why would he Judge people mislead by centuries of Christendoms teachings, within such a short period of 3.5 yrs? Giving a sentence of eternal death! If, you apply it to the Leaders of Christendom, and the ones (Financiers of the earth) and Political leaders) who by their policies/power have ruined the earth, getting Judged for the lake of fire. I can see it. I see a conclusion of the way things were, but in no way do I see the work the WTBTS has done, as any kind of Global, without stumbling blocks for equating the average working Joe was warned! Judgement day to me is the 1,000 years period that puts everyone under rehabilitation to see if they can do right with their whole facilities, body, mind, and soul as it should be intact. All without any of the former devils machinations. Help I just can’t see Jehovah as a God of Love destroying all forever, who do not have a real chance to understand it all.

            • Revelation 14:7 reveals that prior to Armageddon there is an hour of judgment. The announcement that the hour of judgment has arrived is immediately followed by the warning that anyone who receives the 666 mark will drink judgment to themselves. So, the hour of judgment commences immediately after the system collapses (head wound of the beast and then miraculously recovers and breathes to live the image of the beast.) People will be judged worthy of everlasting death if they worship the beast or the image, which would signify their opposition to Christ’s Kingdom.

            • David

              Thank you, Robert King I just think this line of reasoning is flawed somehow. I can’t quite put my finger on why I feel this way. It certainly promotes suicide for many, that feel they just can’t measure up! And it seems to not take into account the drugs, poor food, alcohol promoted marketing that has ruined peoples minds beyond a miracle for repair, that many have. Certainly the outside influences is not their fault. Could there be parallel judgement days? 1 24 hr period?, 1 3.5 year period? and 1 1,000 yr period? All with different accomplishments and benefactors?

            • You are right. It will be futile, even suicidal, to oppose the Kingdom. But suicide is a choice people make. Likewise, people choose to ignore God. It is better to seek Jehovah, seek meekness and seek righteousness now, then to not

            • David

              Thank you, again! I have learned so much from following your website now for 12-13 yrs I’ve had more time to think about it. And I pose a serious question to you. At the day, that Jesus was accused of Blasphemy by the High Priests! Do they deserve a resurrection? And what about the ones they blinded by their authority and called for Jesus to be put to death? Do they deserve a resurrection? Or is it in Jehovah’s hands to judge that? It seems to me, that while the central theme of the bible may be “Paradise lost Paradise Restored”. That the underlying lesson is, see how the devil works his evil magic, or machinations, throughout history, so you can defend yourself once you reawaken in the resurrection on earth. I know your busy and don’t want to overload you. It is just my mind sometimes works overtime at night after laying down, but I can’t get it to start in the morning…Lol Love you stay healthy my friend

            • when Jesus returns, any who fight against the peace he brings will be destroyed. thats what people will do during that time just as they are even doing now. evil people will be gone. Jehovah knows who they are and he knows who will be better under better conditions & circumstances. if anyone continues to be evil in better conditions then they will die.

              thats all i know

            • David

              Thank you that makes sense.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Brian said “Indeed Christendom maybe led astray , I mean is Brian even familiar with Christendom heinous history at all or is he being hilarious on purpose just for fun
              Be ’cause if he is being hilarious than Robert surely has him pegged out when he said”

              You don’t have to understand any of this. Just don’t pretend that you do.
              Robert King Brian 12 days ago

            • The Raven

              Even secular folks know this. The church itself admits they are called BTG in the final days. A quick scan of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs years ago was more than enough to show that this is their condition. I’m not sure if he is saying that Christendom is considered collectively or if he is speaking of a few individuals here? I can’t see how they could be considered in the same way as JWs. There is no comparison as far as I’m concerned. Christendom has had 2,000 plus years of torture, murder and mayhem and proselytized at the point of a sword. They have fomented wars and blessed both sides in the bloodletting and forged deals with governments which handed over to them the lives of many native peoples who were decimated by their forced conversions. I would hate to even try to make a case for them collectively. And then there’s stuff like this. How folks could buck their knee to what appears to have been inspired by a demonic apparition is beyond me.

              The Altar of the Chair of Saint Peter or The Black Altar
              http://stephendanko.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Altar-of-the-Chair.jpg

              The JWs? About a hundred years. We know the rest.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Perhaps Brian forgot to read this part of history……

            • The Raven

              I think a lot of folks have.

            • Brian

              I know too well the history of “Christianity” from the time of the last apostle to now, all of this has been conducted under the influence of Satan, the man of lawlessness and the apostasy and as good or as bad as it is none of them have been brought under judgement by the real judge, you and many others have swabbed all of those that belong to other “professing to be Christian” groups as being tarred with the one brush and you profess to be a “Christian”, maybe it is too easy to just brand everyone in collective groups than to treat everyone as individuals. Maybe it is a club collective mentality you have going there Kev?

            • Brian

              How long was Israel and then later Judah and Benjamin apostate for? I am not in any way defending what those that were supposed to be Christians carried and carry on doing but this has to run it’s full course and then judgement will come upon all people that are professing unity with Jesus and this includes everyone that calls on Jesus. All others that do not call on Jesus or have not rested their faith in him can’t come under this judgement, that is the judgement of the rest of the world and all what they have or haven’t done.

            • Brian

              Hey Kev, Robert didn’t have me pegged for anything and that remark by him was in relation to a observation or comment of a “worldly” imagined entity that I had made, an imagined entity that apparently only the “enlightened” can see. . Now Kev, maybe you can answer the same question that I posed to the other brainwashed one that you replied to because he can’t answer it….When did “Christendom” get judged by Jesus and by doing so the JW’s and the Watchtower became the “chosen ones”, this preferably without rambling on or pasting a link, just a date will suffice, doesn’t have to be too accurate as just the year will do just fine!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Pow!

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Dr. Moreau (aka D3αd 4l¡€π) gave you an adequate answer but perhaps you missed it here it is again

              Dr. Moreau (aka D3αd 4l¡€π) Brian • 4 days ago
              ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-…

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/the-…

              ☀https://e-watchman.com/will…

              Edom, Moab and Ammon… – Christendom = “Babylon”

              maybe Babylon won’t be led astray?
              nonsense. as if it were ever not astray.

              when did Babylon become rejected or judged by Jesus?

              “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,”

              ever hear of Cyrus? took Babylon out. that is a foreshadow of things to come last i checked.

              pre-recorded judgment ? Rev 17:16 Rev 18:2

              that’s a tricky question. suggesting when he rejects Babylon the Great, One would have to convey there was a time Jesus accepted the Harlot in the first place but the judgment of the prostitute has already been determined via God’s word the Bible.

              “when God determined that Judah ought to be punished for the reproach they had brought upon his name the Moabites revealed their deep-seated animosity and were gleeful and in support of the Chaldean killers. For that reason God also determined to destroy Moab.”

              the Harlot “will be judged by God and annihilated by the king of the north when he goes forth in his great rage.”

              “ALL evangelical groups” Brian is trying to pawn-off as God’s people are in reality a composite Moabite-like woman – Babylon the Great, not the representation of Jehovah’s witnesses who are God’s people and temple.

              so by putting forward the idea that all evangelical groups or Christendom sects of Babylon are God’s people, he is in effect suggesting to stay in Babylon instead of getting out of her.

              read Numbers ch25

            • Brian

              I don’t need you to relay to me what someone else has stated, I have already read what he wrote and suffice it to say it is not an adequate answer, it maybe for you but I am expecting that if someone tells me that God has already chosen out for himself a possession from amongst what is offered I would expect that they could at least tell me when this actually took place, at least the JW’s offer up something in the BS story of 1914 and then again in 1919 but seeing as that you seem to know that that is bogus maybe you can offer it up yourself?? You don’t seem to get what I am getting at here so I’ll repeat it, if there is a whole bunch of people “professing unity with Jesus” and he hasn’t arrived to separate them as yet it means that everyone that does so is still standing in the position to be chosen as they have been called in one way or another and whether they are doing a Stirling job of emulating Jesus or not is for him to decide, your head seems to be absolutely full of the convoluted post 1914 Watchtower dogma.

            • Brian

              Pretty much what I am getting at also.

        • The Raven

          But that is only taking into account the Jehovah’s witnesses. This deception gets the whole world as well. So is the whole world following the Jws false christ also? That’s the problem with a singular approach to this. There are two witnesses. They are speaking truth. In the meantime there an impostor and he is decieving the whole world. I would think that also includes the Jws.

          • Huldah

            Maybe we should separate the three.
            The disgusting thing and false Christ deception primarily effects JWs as those two warnings were directed by Jesus to his disciples.
            The beast deception and mark of the beast choice effects everyone both true and counterfeit Christians and the general population.

            • The Raven

              Considering the fact that there are 30 million Christian zionists in the US alone and many more millions of evangelicals who practically control the right, all of which believe that the Jews are Gods chosen, Id say we have a HUGE potential for a false messiah to be “found” by these people. These three articles give some detail.

              https://e-watchman.com/warmongers-for-jesus/

              https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-and-jerusalem/

              https://e-watchman.com/babylon-the-great-what-is-it/

            • Huldah

              I haven’t yet read the articles.
              I do agree that false Christ’s will arise in more abundance in Christendom during that time. They will surely mislead many non JWs.
              Matthew 24 is a private conversation that Jesus had with his disciples. He told them. “Look out that nobody misleads you.”
              This is my primary reason for looking for false Christs inside the organization.
              It’s hard for me to believe that JWs would believe the church leaders of Christendom, but I can sure see how many could easily be deceived by prominent ones inside the JW org.
              Thanks for the article reference. You’re like an eWatchman concordance. You and Kevin of course.

            • The Raven

              The reason I think they too can be misled is because they will never expect WWIII. In fact most of Christendom will view it as Armegeddon not knowing one is man made, the other; supernatural. The jws may find themselves led by people who also buy into the deception foisted on the entire earth.
              Once the dust settles and the final king rises we know he will establish a world wide kingdom in direct opposition to Christ. I have no doubt that kingdom will also include people who know what to say in order to get folks to believe they are being ruled by Christ. Consider the deception will be so great if possible even the chosen would believe it. Now here’s the kicker: The two witnesses prophecy and spirit is poured out on sons and daughters to also prophecy. Who are they prophesying to? I asked this question before and got no answer. Is it only jws? Is it the whole world? I cannot believe they are speaking to people already condemned. There has to be a reason and it appears to me that reason is because some will believe them who have NOT taken the mark. Sure, I agree some of this applies to the HOG. But there is overlap here as well. In fact, it may be greater than we realize.

            • Huldah

              My best answer is 1Peter 4:
              18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?”+

              It’s going to be a hard go for JWs not to be deceived. How will those who have no basis in the truth believe the Two Witnesses?
              I’m not completely excluding the possibilty, but it seems they prophecy to JWs or those who know the truth but may be on the outside for one reason or the other.
              Some of these JWs will even be part of the Antichrist whose actions will play a part in the martyrdom of the Two Witnesses. All JWs will chose a side. Some that are now non believers may make a good choice, but as Peter pointed out that would be near impossible.

            • The Raven

              Yes, I’ve already mentioned that and Kevin supplied the scripture. lol

              As Kevin pointed out to me the Phoenician woman was saved because of her faith in Christ. She believed. I am not inclined to accept that they preach only to the choir. I am also reminded that Jehovah shows mercy to whomever He chooses. This will prove interesting.

            • The Raven

              The other problem with this is that the JWs claim to be separating the sheep from the goats through their preaching. We know this to be false. The sheep and goats are separated by their treatment of Christ’s brothers. Do they need to know the “truth” or do they simply have to care for Christ’s brothers because they have faith in Him?

              It seems that there is a bit of a snag here with the prerequisites for salvation. If there are any. My thinking is that the deception will grab people who are not of good heart whoever they are and those who have looked after Christs brothers even though ignorant may be saved.

            • The Raven

              I wouldn’t say near impossible given biblical accounts of people who did just that by their faith and good deeds. Hard maybe…lol.
              I think we are in agreement as to the major points here but future events are of course what we seek to peer into. This is going to take some work and I am not so certain that we should separate the false Christ from jws either. At this point even though Christ spoke to them directly it doesn’t mean that they are the only ones to be susceptible to it. As to those on the outside, I would venture a guess and say they may very well outnumber actual publishers. How many folks have they preached to and how many of them had differences of opinion based on prophecy or been rejected for bogus reasons? I’d say that may be why Jehovah Himself examines the hearts and minds of all and sends his angels to do the sorting. I once stated if a judge or cop is corrupt then even in this system their convictions are overturned and the defendant is retried. I am reminded that they as a people for His name are not doing so good right now. They are handed over to the sword, famine and pestilence just as the rest of the world is. Just some things to consider.

            • Huldah

              To be clear I’m using JWs loosely as in all who know the truth be they in or out of the accepted org. I’m not excluding anyone here from that group. Not sure but it may be an insult to some to be called a JW but it is still Jehs organization where we learned basic truth. That’s the general group of JWs I refer to. All who know the truth. All who do, have had their eyes opened by Jeh, wherever they are.

            • The Raven

              Understood and I agree. Thanks for the clarification as we sometimes speak in general terms. I would never consider it an insult to be known as a jws even though I never was part of the org. In fact, I and Burt are of the opinion that we would consider it a blessing to be worthy of even being considered for a beating. Hopefully a light one! I think in the course of some analysis folks tend to view all these matters from an exclusionary viewpoint and often that gives people the impression that they are children of a lesser god, or chopped liver, so to speak. We know Christ came here for all and as we study these matters I keep this in mind even though Jehovah does have a people for His name which will figure prominently during tribulation. But…we do not know for certain who they all are nor do we know where they will all be found. Just like the called, as Robert stated there are some no one yet knows about. It’s an interesting thing, isn’t it?
              I absolutely enjoy these discussions immensely!

            • Huldah

              Yes me too. So nice to find others who can be engaged in spiritual discussions.
              How do we cement our understanding if we don’t use our knowledge?

              Jehovah foretold the sheep would be scattered due to poor leadership.
              Many fine “JWs” are outside the pen, but Jeh doesn’t blame them. It’s the poor shepherding.

            • The Raven

              That’s for sure. Makes you wonder about the things still hidden, doesn’t it? Inquiring minds want to know! I know you do! That’s why I really like having a seat at this table in a very well appointed library to boot! I get lost in search sometimes. I have so many windows open on this laptop on articles and scriptures I lose track of where I am. It’s freakin’ wonderful! LOL!

            • Jamie Mac

              He He , sounds like you can multi task. Here I was thinking only the fairer sex have that abiiity. Well, that’s what my wife keeps telling me anyway.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! Hi Jaimie, how have you been? Haven’t seen you around lately. New job going ok?

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Raven, the new job is exactly the reason why I have not commented much lately. It has been very demanding recently, working 12 hour days on a project. Thankfully that has finished and I can now continue with my spiritual progress. Luckily for me and others we have this site.

            • The Raven

              Hi, Jamie! I never believed the 1914 hoax. In fact that’s one of the reasons I was not approved for baptism or even further study with them. I had a serious issue concerning virtually all of Revelation. They claimed a big part of it was done, I said it wasn’t.
              It was prophecy which led me here. It made sense and I also never expected to find actual evidence for more hope than I even knew of. Not just for humanity but for the dead and those who perish at the hands of the horsemen.
              I knew there had to be someone who understood these things. Someone who Jehovah has obviously given a great amount of insight to and that is reflected in his writings, in his thoughts and straightforward approach. Not letting go of what IS true but exposing what isn’t and explaining what religions have made a mess of. That’s why I’m here.

            • Jamie Mac

              Nice Reply Raven, you are now part of the fabric so there is no quitting now. Not that you would want to anyway 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Or, more succinctly…While being corrupted, institutions may be reformed, but having been corrupted, institutions can only be abandoned or destroyed.

            • The Raven

              Christ doesn’t come to save it, He comes to sort, separate and refine the individuals in it and once that’s done, there is no longer any use for it.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Who are they prophesying to?……

              The Final Witness – How Will People Respond?.
              https://e-watchman.com/the-final-witness-how-will-people-respond/

            • The Raven

              Thanks, Kevin. It’s been nagging at me for a while. Once again you step up!

              https://e-watchman.com/the-final-witness-how-will-people-respond/
              “Those who search for Jehovah during that bleak period will be the ones whom Jehovah will favor with his spirit and they will then give the world a final witness concerning Christ having become king “and then the end will come.”

              “The menservants and maidservants are representative of those who are not anointed sons and daughters but who will be blessed by God to survive the end of the world. The purpose of their receiving the full measure of the spirit is so that they may give a final witness to the world.”

              So even during that period will be those who look for Jehovah. All is not lost until the final chapter. Although few will heed it. There’s also this:

              “For example, Jesus said that Christians would be hauled before governors and kings in order to give them a witness, but that they were not to rehearse beforehand what they might say, because what they were to say would be given them in that very hour by the spirit.
              Who will respond to the final witness? People will respond by killing the messengers – literally!”

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Raven: You remind me of the people of Beroea in the bible.
              Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/acts/17/#v44017010-v44017015

            • The Raven

              We get a war of attrition AND a direct confrontation in which we will be the instruments Jehovah uses at the end. So much for digging a hole and hiding in it! I can see the wisdom of His ways in this matter. No one will be a spectator, we will all be active participants. Thankfully Jehovah gives us the words and the spine to do what must be done.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing
              Unless he has revealed his confidential matter* to his servants the prophets.Amos 3:7.Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/amos/3/#v30003007

            • The Raven

              Well, I think I’ve picked a good place to loiter in. But diss us still sucks! lol!

            • The Raven

              BTW I don’t think the church leaders of Christendom will be speaking to the jws. It appears the deception encompasses all. Prominent ones from inside the org may accept the deception and expect members to follow. In the aftermath of nuclear war, there is no telling how stupid things can get.

            • Richard Long

              This, of course, assumes that we JW’s are not also “counterfeit Christians”. (NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS ANY INDIVIDUAL – obviously all here ARE digging for treasures of truth) We already freely admit to following a body of men that are even now under the influence /control of the MOL. Further, the call to get out of BTG during the Genuine parousia will include us too, will it not?

            • Huldah

              Interestingly, I was praying intensely to be freed from BTG when I found TTAT. That tells me a thing or two!

              I think some JWs are counterfeit “true”Christians, while Christendom is counterfeit Christian.

              Some JWs have ‘a form of Godly devotion but prove false to its power’ or have ‘the name they are alive but are dead’ as in the Sardis congregation.

              The very nature of BTG’s main component, Christendom is apostasy.
              Apostate JWs fit there too, I suppose.

    • Interesting. I never made that connection. Makes sense. BTW, glad you got some healing.

      • Huldah

        Thanks Robert.
        I’m relieved. It sure is an adjustment being back after almost 20 days abroad.
        eWatchman is a great help in keeping me from succumbing to emotional whiplash as I make a rapid deceleration back into my humdrum life. But I do need the rest. Lol
        Glad you enjoyed my comment.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Just as the scripture tells us and as you quoted many will be making a claim to have intimate knowledge of Christ, not least I suppose the watchtower who already have in place the command to ‘be prepared to follow (our) instructions even if they sound odd.’ I am sure they, and many others will make the claim of seeing Christ. Who to believe? Jesus said that his people will recognise his voice. He said ‘not to go after’ those claiming to be him or know where he is. If Christ says that, why should I go after an ‘anointed’ person who makes claims? Does he speak for Christ’s? I understand that the annointed will be visible by their countenance, but I think that is after the event chronologically, and I am sure Satan will be able to turn himself ( and others) into an angel of light. Yet again, the scriptures say for us not to fear: That Jehovah will protect us. As for me, if the test is on a supernatural level, then it will be beyond me, or anyone else for that matter, not to be deceived, because none of us know the level of supernatural to make a judgement on that score.

      So if we are to believe in Jehovah, then we must assume the test will be on our level, being drawn out by our own desires. We are told that Christ will appear in opposition to the satanic rulership of this earth and wipe it out. I think it wise, not to go anywhere or do anything or have a guess at it because we will be tested as to what WE want, not to what Satan or Christ want for us. We stand alone to make our choice and as Kennedy? said, ‘the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.’ Our fear.

      In that time, we will neither be able to buy nor sell, we will be hammered on all sides to yield and we will have to make stark choices to be loyal in our minds alone. Our decision. We can starve just as easily in satan’s system as we can in Christ’s coming; Loose our lives, our family; so the choice must be, to be committed in our mind and heart. That way, surely our saviour will recognise us? Why go looking for a spirit that should by then, already be a part of our thinking? Is that not where we find Christ, within our thinking and prayers within our minds. Is the search, should the search, be physical?

      I’m not going to ‘believe’ in anyone. I’m going to believe in the instruction I receive about the end, the bible, Jehovah’s intention, Christ’s coming, and to hear the voice. I’m going to have faith in that voice because that voice will be recognisable. The bible says so. There HAS to be a truth. There HAS to be a pathway to it. That voice will walk behind us, directing our footsteps. The bible says so. I am neither preparing physically against hunger or thirst. The bible assures me that if I remain faithful, all other things will be added to me. I brought nothing into this world, but the only thing I can take out of this world is faith. And if that faith costs me my life, then that will have to be it, and I think that is the better course of action because to give it up to stay in this world? No thanks. Jehovah allows our faith to be tested as to our faith in him to provide the sure way out. Why delay the opportunity to be so tested and to receive the reward be it a full belly or a deep sleep to awake refreshed ? Are we to believe that an angel cannot make himself known to us at our level? If we have faith and insight, then that grain will give us the perception we need to see the intent behind the speaker. After all, how will those fare who have nothing in the way of knowledge except a righteous heart?

      • Richard Long

        FDR on the fear quote.

        • Huldah

          Hi Richard
          I was surprised to read FDRs inaugural address and find so many references to scripture.
          Not all accurate but it shows the respect and knowledge of the Bible people had at that time as opposed to ours. Telling.

          • Richard Long

            The same could be said of the US founding documents – common for civil lunch counter conversation.

            • The Raven

              True. There was a time when most kids could pass a simple civics test and they knew the ten commandments. Today? eh…

            • Jamie Mac

              Kids today are pretty awesome at sitting on a couch twiddling their thumbs on a gaming pad and wearing their trousers halfway down there backsides lol

        • Burt Reynolds

          Ah right. I had better stick with Churchill.

      • Huldah

        As you say….We have to trust that Jehovah is loyal to those who love truth.
        To me, there a two things that secure us in our ability to face the test.
        Love of truth as opposed to ‘loving our own souls in the face of death’. Rev. 12:11
        Luke9:
        24 For whoever wants to save his life* will lose it, but whoever loses his life* for my sake is the one who will save it.+

        1 Love of truth before love of self

        2 The other is knowing our shepherd.
        He’s humble and the sort who would surrender his life for the sheep.
        We know his true voice. That’s why we are here on eWatchman. We do not listen to the voice of strangers even if they are in the most prominent places in the organization that represents our God. We look for those who speak and behave as if they have ‘the mind of Christ’.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Absolutely true. The more committed we show ourselves to be to that ethos in word and deed, the less, hopefully, we will need to be tested on it. After all, Satan only tempted Christ with a loaf of bread. As Kevin says, ‘ food for thought…!’

      • black curtain

        Dear Burt, best contribution I have seen you make, the only neck one can save is their own. And it all comes down to what we want as individuals. It is completely personal as you say. Jesus (or is to be Michael?) judges all on their personal desire not whether or what Corporation one belongs to, God is not partial. Outstanding.
        Kindest regards bc

        • Burt Reynolds

          Thank you. It’s good to know my biblical knowledge is expanding! Maybe it is that the earlier we allow our test to take place, the less desperately driven by Satan it will be as he is dragged toward the end of the tribulation, as with hooks in his jaws….

        • Jamie Mac

          Hi BC, your right about Burt’s comment. Here’s a question though I have often thought about. Can a persons actions in the time of great distress , actions inline with Jehovah’s instructions, save other people. I have in mind family members. I have prayed many times for Jehovah to use me during that time and I have this vision of me saving most of my family members who unfortunately do not share my beliefs. Probably just a pipe dream , but it is distressing thinking about family who may not make it through and decide to worship the beast. Jehovah will say the former things have passed away etc and I am guessing we will not remember family etc.

          • black curtain

            Hi Jamie my comment of course is a considered opinion, nothing more. Is there cases to consider in light of your question. Two come to mind. (I hope I am not finding holes in my own comments:-))
            The first was Rahab and her family, the action all centred around Rahab and what her responses were. The entire family seems to have been saved.
            The other was Lot and his family. That seemed to largely depend on Lots reaction to the warning to get out of Sodom. However, in his case his wife turned around and “looked back.”

            The phrase, “looked back” is an interesting one because where was she when she “looked back?” Could she see the actual “city?” If she couldn’t see the “city”, then in what sense is “looked back” used?

            In relation to your question it does seem that she couldn’t see the “city.” Read the account in Genesis and see what you think. So, in the first instance she appeared to get out and was safe, so Lot did contribute to her being safe, but she “looked back” meaning she missed her home and that environment and wanted to go back and subsequently lost her life.

            Quoting again, the great British jurist, Lord William Blackstone “actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea” translated in Engish a “vicious crime without a vicious mind is not a crime at all, meaning motive is everything. (see 1Kings 22:34 where the bowman committed a grievous crime,lese majeste, yet did so in “all innocence )

            But what if you YOU lived in ancient Jerusalem and heard Jesus warning about getting out of it? The “city” of Pella (this is a misnomer for what it was just a sleepy village, I suppose) was a centre for christians aside from Jerusalem, well out of the range of the Roman army exclusion zone. Had you got out years early, and your family came with you then they would have survived by way of Jesus’ warning although it doesn’t take into account motives (of all kinds).

            Then there is the case of Manasseh, who humbled himself because of the extreme circumstances that he found himself in. Jehovah appears to have taken him at “face value” that he was repentant and he was saved from a terrible death and actually restored to the theocratic throne, I almost find it hard to believe but we can read it in the bible what happened.

            Then take the case of Noah (last one). The amount of humans alive at the preflood ark construction is unknown, yet only eight people survived???? That is mind numbing. Where was Noah’s parents, the same for his wife. What about the 3 wives of the 3 sons, Japheth, Shem and Ham, where were their parents??? Indeed, where were their siblings? You know the answer as well as I do.

            So there are three things that I conclude.
            1. Some people humbly repentant under extreme circumstances (Manasseh)
            2. Some by sheer circumstance accept that and “see” Jehovah (Rahab’s family and get swept along)
            3. Then there is those that we can do nought for, as they wont listen (Noah’s case)
            But the last one is that Jesus reads hearts. To give an example here, have a read of Math 13:1- 17 and I will quote part of that;
            (Matthew 13:10-11) . . .So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.

            The phrase, “To YOU it is granted”, is a legal phrase. The word granted means “to bestow or confer, especially by a formal act” meaning that in the case here, a higher authority had read the hearts of these apostles, discussed them (Jehovah and his son) and gave them understanding of sacred secrets. Including one who later denied his Lord three times.

            It is a very heartwarming passage to think that these two unique persons consider everybody on the own merits in a way of kindness without rancour, or prejudice or bias that we can’t really grasp the fullness of it. For example what is perfection? Can anyone here discuss it with authority? We think we know what it is and how it works, but no one has ever experienced it.

            Same with Jehovah’s loving kindness don’t preclude for your own peace of mind whether or not your family or others whom you know, will get a pass mark. We don’t know. It is arrogant (not you or you wouldn’t be concerned) that some think that because they belong to a special group etc they are all good with God.

            A great example Na’aman the Syrian general who was cleansed of leprosy. Yet not a Israelite, a military man who didn’t want to swim in the crummy Jordan river, probably muddy. But he did when reasoned upon AT THE RIGHT TIME. Persist in your prayer to Jehovah and watch, Families love kindness it impresses silently, you just don’t know. But be prepared for some who will not change, that is their choice. I might add that we all have dear family members in that category.

            As for the rest of us… it is as Burt said so eloquently.

            My kindest of regards bc

            • Jamie Mac

              wow BC, that was a wonderful reply and I know you went to great lengths to answer, so thank you.

              I am aware of all those accounts apart from Na’aman the Syrian general so I have learned something new today :-).

              You have definitely made me think about this in a different way.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Wonderfully expressed Burt Thank you.

        Keep in mind these false Christ will surely be supportive of the new world order which is Satan’s kingdom and these false Christ will probably tell the people that this new world order is an expression of GOD’s kingdom which would be a total deceptive lie be ’cause we know Jehovah’s kingdom is not a physical one .
        Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.John 18:36. Read more>
        https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/18/#v43018036

    • Brian

      Huldah, you have definitely “touched” on something here, now add to what you have just mentioned is the fact that there is going to be a man made Satan inspired entity that is going to claim to be the “Kingdom of God” appearing in the form of the “disgusting thing standing where it ought not be” to carry people away from the fact that the real Kingdom has indeed arrived, this is what will lead most of the earth to “worshipping the beast”, certainly trying and testing times for anyone that is in expectation of the coming of the Lords day and the Kingdom and for those that will be chosen as Gods sons.

      • Huldah

        Hi Brian,
        Thanks for sharing my interest in the topic.
        It seems you have taken the point a step further.
        The holy place is not Christendom but Jehovah’s own people.
        The disgusting thing and the appearance of false Christs may indeed be connected and part of the same delusion centered, perhaps, at Bethel. Good point.

        • Brian

          Huldah, I am not suggesting that “Christendom” is the “holy place”, from what I can gather from the scriptures is that the kingdom itself is the holy place and when they stand this abomination up it will be standing where the real one is or in other words when Jesus does “arrive” they will install this thing to usurp the real one.

          • Huldah

            Didn’t think you were. I’ll have to put some thought into the real kingdom being the holy place. Interesting…

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Holy Place.
              Excerpt:
              The sanctuary, fortress and the constant feature, mentioned above, have reference to that which belongs to God – being the central feature of the worship of Jehovah. In other words, the sanctuary and fortress are a holy place to God. The constant feature has to do with the regular sacrifices of praise offered to God in his sanctuary. This is collaborated by Daniel 8:13, which refers to the king of fierce countenance “causing desolation” to the “holy place” and removing the “constant feature.”Daniel 8:13 reads: “How long will the vision be of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?”

              The 8th chapter of Daniel also connects the holy place, the sanctuary and the constant feature with the “Prince of the army,” who is Christ. So, the “putting in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation” is in reference to the sanctuary of Jehovah, of which Christ is both the cornerstone and High priest. Given the similar content and wording of the prophecies of Daniel it should be evident to the discerning reader that the holy place that is destined to come to desolation and be trampled underfoot by the nations for an appointed time is the earthly domain of the holy ones – Christ’s true congregation. It most certainly is not Christendom or Babylon the Great. Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-holy-place-prophecy/

              Read a lot more>Search results for: Holy Place.
              https://e-watchman.com/?s=Holy+Place

            • Huldah

              Ok I think I get it.
              Great article. I think I’ll need to read it at least ten times though.

              The holy place is not the kingdom either for two reasons….
              1 The constant feature or preaching work issues from it and is ceased.
              2 JWs have to flee it to be saved

              The holy place is the WT organization which will come under the attack of the world govt much like what is happening in Russia but with far greater consequences.
              Be ready to cut ties with the WT and its profane worthy “princes”.

            • i would think the constant feature of the preaching work is the good news of the kingdom but primarily God’s name

            • The Raven

              Excellent explanation. Thanks Kevin.

            • somthing to put thought into:

              what is the kingdom?
              how do you find this kingdom?
              its a place and the place is holy.
              what makes it holy and were is this place?

            • Huldah

              You’ve gotta read the article Kevin linked.

              I’m working this out.
              The kingdom is heavenly.
              Christ’s cong or the WT organization is the earthly manifestation of the kingdom.
              The disgusting thing goes after the physical org/cong but cannot touch the heavenly part.
              The kingdom will show itself and be accepted by those with spiritual vision.
              The world govt will oppose it and attempt to convince all to accept it as a substitute for the true kingdom.
              The physical minded will do so.
              In addition, the physical minded among JWs will be completely thrown off balance by the desolation of the WT org, having no real ‘root in themselves’ or connection to the truth apart from the physical organization, they will be among those who ‘fall away’, perhaps even looking to a new PHYSICAL solution to their problems such as the new world order. The true kingdom will only be apparent and appealing to those with spiritual vision. The same goes for the message of the two witnesses.

            • “disgusting thing goes after the physical org/cong but cannot touch the heavenly part”

              true, sort of – Rev 6:11 Rev 12:4

              i like how you worded “no real root”.
              thats a good way to convey the sense of it

          • Huldah

            Check out the article from Kevin and my reply.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Hi Brian, I agree that the holy place must be the Kingdom of God as isn’t one definition of Kingdom…Merriam-Webster….the Spiritual World of which God is King! Ephesians 5:15 talks about there is one Kingdom, the Kingdom of the Christ and God so to serve Christ is to serve the Kingdom of God.
            Matt 12:28 when Jesus expelled the demons he said the Kingdom of God has come upon you. The Kingdom of God creates righteousness, peace and Joy. Also doesn’t the Kingdom of God mean reign of God so it would make sense and isn’t the Holy Place being before the very presence of God because of the sacrifice if Jesus Christ….the curtain in the Temple was ripped in two at the point of Jesus’ death gaining access to the Most Holy of Holies in the Temple. Might have this all wrong. Lol.

      • Sam Knight

        The Bahia faith is looking like a contender.

        • Brian

          Do they have Jesus as the focal figure in their beliefs??

          • Sam Knight

            Not sure Brian. They have Jesus included with the other so called prophets. Strangely enough they say Jesus returned in the 1800s. Until yesterday I’d thought of them as a Hindu sect of some sort but definitely more to them than that. Perhaps a very cunningly connived counterfeit for the NWO?
            http://bupc.org/

            • Brian

              Yes, the Muslims also have Jesus as a prophet but not as who he is, many do recognise Jesus as a prophet but more in line with him being just a man and a philosopher and not the son of the creator.The Rastafarians also believe Jesus turned up some time ago incarnate as (Haile Selassie), not sure what they think the end game is.

            • Sam Knight

              Yes on further reading I see they are an offshoot of islam. Are opposed to nationalism, rascism, obedient to Caesar and incorporate all of the world’s major religions into one.
              Haha I’m smelling a counterfeit.

    • Bklyn Kevin

      “Pow” nice point.!.

    • Jamie Mac

      Hi Huldah, interesting thought. We on this site know Satan will not stop his activities and he is probably making plans right now to bring down some of the anointed , if that were at all possible.

      We know for sure those who are not anointed will never see Jesus. I cling to that thought and hope it will stop me being misled when these Antichrists start spouting these lies.

    • Beverly kenyon

      Matthew 24:26. Therefore, if people say to you, Look! He is in the wilderness do not go out, Look! He is in the inner chambers, do not believe it.’ Reading that scripture I immediately thought, now what group of christians say the Christ is here already and ruling….in the “wilderness and in the “inner chambers”, he then goes on to say, do not believe it and says also in v23,24 about False Christs & False Prophets so I would think a false Christ, an anti- Christ is a person or persons who say they have to intercede for other people as they’re God’s channel of communication, God’s mouthpiece, standing in a ‘Holy Place’ that doesn’t belong to them, claiming that ‘special connection’.

  • Huldah

    My husband and I had a recent discussion about how hard it was for us to love Jehovah while in the JW org.
    Jesus was easy to love, but Jehovah not.

    It appears that the JW apostasy has so maligned Jehovahs name and personality that many are put off to the point that they want to reject Jehovah completely or relegate him to a position beneath Christ.
    There seems to be a movement on the Internet to this purpose.

    My time in the apostate organization has done damage to my perspective of Jehovah as have my experiences of which I believe Satan to be at the helm.

    It’s simple, though, Jesus said in prayer, “Let your name be sanctified.”
    Who was he talking to and what name was paramount to him? That of his father, Jehovah.

    Despite the apostasy of the JW org which has apostatized in the same way the Jewish organization did during Jesus day, it and the Jewish faith were both chosen by God and used to further the truth.

    The Jews were rejected for their apostasy as the JWs are soon to be.
    Select people of faith from those groups will attain to salvation. And of course those who accept the indisputable truths they both have at their core. I’m not saying one has to be part of the now apostate organizations just accept the indisputable truths of the Bible.

    These are basic facts of the truth. They are foundational to moving past “the elementary things” to greater, more profound, and life saving knowledge.

    There are many sites where one can debate the fundamentals of Christianity. This is not one. Here, we recognize fundamental truths and we are building on that foundation to the goal of preserving our lives through what is about to come upon the world.

    This is a group that has stuck by Jehovah despite suffering horribly at the blasphemous actions of those who claim authority over those in God’s true organization. Due to having already passed this test, they will not be convinced that all that is required for salvation is to ‘believe on the Lord Jesus’.

    We who already have accepted these things and KNOW and love the truth are better to use our energies to progress further rather than engage with those who enjoy beating dead horses in order to send maggots flying.

    Robert has a right to do whatever he wants with a site he works hard to keep up. We’re just guests.

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