The Vindication of Jehovah’s Sovereignty

//The Vindication of Jehovah’s Sovereignty

QUESTION: The June 2017 Watchtower has a couple of articles entitled Keep Your Eyes on the Big Issue and Uphold Jehovah’s Sovereignty. The “big issue” is explained to be the ‘vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty.’ The Watchtower has used this phrase since back in the 1930’s when Rutherford published a book called Vindication. But nowhere in the Bible do we even find the words “vindicate” or “vindication,” and there isn’t even any scriptural support for the suggestion that Satan questioned God’s right to rule. You have pointed out many errors the WT teaches, is this concept of the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty just another false teaching the WT made up to control JW’s? Thanks.

Having just read the Watchtower articles in question, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with what is stated therein.

So what if the exact words “vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty” do not appear in the Bible? The concept certainly is conveyed throughout the Scriptures.

Perhaps a better understanding of the meaning of the word “vindicate” will help. The primary meaning of the dictionary definition vindicate means “to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like…” Also, it may mean: “to assert, maintain, or defend (a right, cause, etc.) against opposition.”

According to the first definition, although Satan did not come right out and say God has no right to tell you what to do, that is certainly implied by his accusation that God was acting against the best interests of his creation by forbidding them from eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. And he undoubtedly intended to create suspicion in the minds of others regarding the rightness of God’s orders. By his sly imputation the Devil implied that God was evil and selfish. And if God is unjust, what right does he have to be our ruler?

From the very beginning of mankind’s existence God presented himself as the sovereign ruler of Adam and Eve and their intended offspring. His first recorded utterances came in the form of commands. Read it. God said to them:  “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

Next, God issued his directive on what Adam and Eve were allowed to eat. God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.”

However, prior to Eve’s creation God issued a prohibition, saying:  “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

So, when Satan directly contradicted God’s clearly stated command it was a direct attack upon Jehovah’s sovereignty. And because the first two humans defied God as their ruler the need arose for Jehovah to defend, yes, to vindicate his sovereignty. Anyone who does not understand this does not understand the most basic foundation of the truth. Sadly, apparently some of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not. 

When Jesus was on earth immediately after he was baptized and anointed as the Messiah the scripture says he was led by the holy spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being tempted by the Devil. This certainly seems odd since in the Lord’s prayer Jesus advised us to pray that God deliver us from temptation. Why would God deliberately lead his Son into a personal encounter with the Tempter? Obviously, the temptation of Christ had nothing to do with his mission to preach and teach and ultimately give his life as a ransom.

So, why did God present Jesus to the Devil in order for him to be tested? It has to do with the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty. How so?

Because just as with Adam and Eve, Jesus was obligated to obey God’s commands. As a fleshly Jew Jesus was under the authority of the law of Moses. Each of Satan’s temptations were intended to induce Christ to break the law. For example, Satan’s first temptation was designed to get Jesus to misuse his power by performing a miracle in his own behalf, to which Jesus replied: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

The account in Deuteronomy that Jesus quoted has to do with the 40-year wilderness trek, when God miraculously provided the Israelites with manna —the bread from heaven. So, knowing that God could provide him with bread, miraculously if necessary, Jesus was not going to break his 40-day fast by turning stones into bread. As with the other two temptations, Jesus prefaced his reply with “it is written.”

In so doing Jesus demonstrated that he was in total subjection to God’s sovereignty. On other occasions Jesus made that clear too, saying “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative…”

Of course, being a free moral agent Jesus could do something on his own initiative, if he chose to, even as did Satan and Adam and Eve. What he meant was he would never allow himself to do anything to displease God, such as acting on his own initiative.

Ultimately, it was Jehovah’s will for Jesus to be put to death. And not just an ordinary death, but it was God’s will for Jesus to be subjected to a humiliating and torturous ordeal. Why? Because Satan’s contention is that no one will obey God if it involves suffering or death. That too is a direct attack upon God’s sovereignty.

But contrary to the accusation that God was withholding something good, Jesus knew that it was also God’s stated command that if he willingly submitted himself to death then God would not only raise him from the dead, but exalt him to his own throne, making Jesus the immortal ruler of the universe. 

The 53rd chapter of Isaiah relates to the death and resurrection of the Messiah. And it clearly states that God took delight in crushing him. What that means is, Jehovah willed that his Son be crushed to death in order to completely demonstrate his submission to God’s authority. God was delighted that his Son was willing. 

Clearly, the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty is the very heart of the truth. That is why Jesus is called the faithful and true witness. He gave witness to God’s sovereignty over his life. By faithfully submitting himself to Jehovah as his sovereign, Jesus gained the ultimate reward, proving that God not only has the right to rule over his creation, but that our complete obedience to him results in unending blessings.

The complete vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty will come with the return of Christ. Of course, the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses must first come to know that he is Jehovah, just as will the world, ultimately. Christ will impose his authority over all, beginning first with those who are in the Kingdom —tossing some out. At that time Satan will impose his rulership upon the world to such an extent that anyone who does not submit to the Devil’s beast and its image will be under threat of death.

The issue of the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty will be unavoidable and inescapable. 

2017-08-15T10:23:56+00:00 August 15th, 2017|Mailbag|93 Comments
  • Burt Reynolds

    We really have to be of a mind to sacrifice our lives for Jehovah. It’s easy enough to see the justice of the arguement, the reason, and the purity, but I wish there was a machine like they have at the Kingdom Hall where you just shove a card in to donate, but instead of donating, it payed out a sack load of courage.

    • The Raven

      Isaiah 30 15-21
      15 For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, says:
      “By returning to me and resting, you will be saved;
      Your strength will be in keeping calm and showing trust.”+
      But you were unwilling.+
      16 Instead, you said: “No, we will flee on horses!”
      So flee you will.
      “And on swift horses we will ride!”+
      So those pursuing you will be swift.+
      17 A thousand will tremble at the threat of one;+
      At the threat of five you will flee
      Until what is left of you is like a mast on the top of a mountain,
      Like a signal pole on a hill.+
      18 But Jehovah is waiting patiently* to show you favor,+
      And he will rise up to show you mercy.+
      For Jehovah is a God of justice.+
      Happy are all those keeping in expectation of* him.+
      19 When the people dwell in Zion, in Jerusalem,+ you will by no means weep.+ He will surely show you favor at the sound of your cry for help; he will answer you as soon as he hears it.+ 20 Though Jehovah will give you bread in the form of distress and water in the form of oppression,+ your Grand Instructor will no longer hide himself, and you will see your Grand Instructor+ with your own eyes. 21 And your own ears will hear a word behind you saying, “This is the way.+ Walk in it,” in case you should go to the right or in case you should go to the left.+

      • Burt Reynolds

        Thanks Raven, timely comforting scriptures indeed!

        • The Raven

          I try to keep a cool head when it comes to the wto since i know whats coming. I noticed you do too and are not given to freaking out or rancor, but very calm and sound reasoning. That helps folks to see the issues without the hysteria and bitterness often displayed by those who allow their anger to get the best of them. Imo it also helps steady those who run from one person to the next hoping for insight and are constantly off balance and fearful. We have all been there but some prefer to dwell in those chaotic chambers. I prefer ruminating over the wonderful possibilities rather than the anxieties. After all jehovah will give us what we need.

    • Craig Knight

      That cracked me up Burt about getting a sack full of courage. What’s coming is definitely going to make all of us fearful and happy at the same time. I expect to be killed in my mind so that I am ready for it. But Jehovah will give us courage if we ask for him to help us be loyal. He will carry us through even death itself. If we don’t die then we can consider that frosting on the cake so to speak.

      • Burt Reynolds

        That’s pretty much how I think and probably many others.

      • The Raven

        I agree. I do what is within my means when it comes to dealing with a man made demon directed event. But jehovah has final say and I’ve reached that point as well where i understand this system will try to kill us but the next will open the doors to eternity. I’m good with that.

  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    Hi Robert I’m glad you brought up the tree in the garden what’s brings me to an interesting thought. During Adam and Eve’s being put out of the garden Jehovah placed cherubs to protect the way to the Tree of Life that if possible they would go and take from the tree and eat, thus live forever. With that said, it appears food would have not been a necessity, it seems that means eating anything from that point on would have been simply for the pleasure of it..

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      I don’t see where there is a valid explanation for the tree of life….The tree of knowledge of good and bad in itself was just a fruit tree , and their actions showed their true heart condition, just like the life of life may have represented a state we do not understand yet but could not possibly be immortality because that would be the new creation.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I was wondering along similar lines, in that surely it was the act of disobedience and not the fruit. And yet, unless Jehovah himself gave Adam and Eve insight into their nakedness etc, from whom else would that knowledge come? Likewise the tree of life. Why would the act of disobedience cause such a radical change in thinking? I can only assume that upon disobeying, man would need a whole new understanding to survive the consequences of his action, than he would have done had he remained obedient. And what is the significance of nakedness or the ignorance of it as we see in animals, along with the sense of privacy? It always amused me seeing the illustrations in the watchtower of Adam and Eve strategically placed behind bushes, when the opposite was far more likely. The other thing that I wondered about was what they occupied themselves with during the day (not that!) and how long the interval of time was between the creation of Eve and the introduction of sin.

    • black curtain

      Hi RZ, this question has risen before, not here though as far as I know, but let’s take the situation regarding both trees. Adam and Eve were told regarding the tree of knowledge of good and bad that in the day that they eat from it they will die.

      We know that with the Hebrew word for day, the length of time is defined by circumstance or context, sometimes a verse somewhere else describes the length of time i.e. (Psalm 90:4) 4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.

      Even though Moses wrote Psalms and Genesis he doesn’t directly link the two things together although most Bible scholars/ observers, make the connection. The fact that Adam died at 930 years of age is either a connection or a coincidence, Eve’s (Hava in Hebrew) age at death is not given, but the assumption is she died being less than a thousand years of age.

      So what happened within them that made them die?

      Something changed the DNA so that the cells stopped replicating themselves after an apparently defined time and the life forces cease so what causes that?. (Psalm 90:10) 10 In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years,. . .

      That question is the holy grail that stampeding geneticists are looking to answer.

      Paul answers that question (Romans 5:12-14) . . .That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.

      So what is sin? One definition is “missing the mark of Jehovah’s perfect standards.” This is the beginning of understanding Jehovah’s legal standards (not ours).

      Therefore, somehow, but not fully understood, Jehovah has enacted a sentence of removing a continuous life capacity in all of the human race. Thus the tree itself did not do this even though the first two people ate from it.

      Likewise with the second tree. It by itself had no special properties. But it had legal significance for Jehovah. Had Adam and the missus eaten from it, legally (by his own perfect principles) Jehovah would have been obliged to honour his own words (God cannot lie) and grant them continuous life.

      As an after thought I was puzzled a little at verse thirteen of Romans Ch5. “but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.” Which tells us that sin is not necessarily doing something wrong. The death penalty still applied to Adams descendants because he could not pass on something he did not have to them.

      Which helps to understand why Jehovah and Jesus performed a rescue mission for all of the descendants, we were sold down the river, through no fault of own. We get our chance.

      The kicker in the end is, Eve was completely deceived, and she ate in good faith, if Adam had remained loyal to God could he have helped rescue her? Are you guilty of a breach of law if you act in good faith? Actus Non Facit Rheum Nisi Mens Sit Rea ( Lord William Blackstone)…

      (1 Kings 22:34-35) . . .And there was a man that bent the bow in his innocence, but he got to strike the king of Israel between the appendages and the coat of mail, so that he said to his charioteer: “Turn your hand around, and take me out from the camp, because I have been badly wounded.” 35 And the battle kept rising in intensity on that day, and the king himself had to be kept in a standing position in the chariot facing the Syrians, and gradually he died in the evening; and the blood of the wound kept pouring out upon the interior of the war chariot.

      • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

        The scriptures, mention that Tree had the property of eternal life when eatin, then we have the curse of the ground ,the thorn in the thistle the hard work you know… the miserable occupation of man according to Solomon and Ecclesiastes 1:13 . Then we have in Revelation the mention of being led to Trees of Life the reprieve. The fact is they Adam and Eve had recieved the death sentence they would have died anyway because Jehovah said so..It was just an odd thing that Jehovah would even mention the Tree of Life ,that it need be protected since they were already going to die the tree obviously had some special powers or the protection of it would have not been necessary.

  • i wonder if i would have ever understood the issue of Jehovah’s sovereignty if it wasnt explained to me via talks, studying WT publacations.

    “That is why Jesus is called the faithful and true witness.” yep

    • Daisy

      As the words ‘vindicating Jehovah’s sovereignty’ are not scriptural, but implanted by the WT and via misleading ‘talks’, the thoughts about an ‘issue’ would probably never come into your mind Doc…love from Daisy

      • i didnt say misleading talks.
        they obviously werent misleading for me to understand that issue.

        i hate the WT just as much as the next guy but it serves Jehovah purpose.

        “Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.”

      • Richard Long

        I’m the first one to recommend one should take a scrub brush and lye soap to ANY and EVERY utterance coming forth from the mouth of the WT, but isn’t it likely that upon vigorously doing so, one might expect to have at least a little something pure remain in our boney fingers? While it is certainly true that the sum effect of the WT’s influence on the universe is, in fact, GREATER “cause” for the Creator to explain Himself to the creation, not less, are we not being the epitome of the gnat-straining, camel-swollowing pharasees’ when we refuse to accept as valid the phrase coined by a source non-scriptural to explain a concept which is absolutely scriptural? Even if that source be shown to be the originator of a lie in a thousand instances, the one truth uttered is still unalterably truth. Do not the terms “the issue of Jehovah’s Sovereignty” or “vindication of Jehovah’s universal sovereignty” simply expand conceptually upon what is succinctly expressed in scripture here:

        Isaiah 1:18 “Come, now, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah. “Though your sins are like scarlet, They will be made as white as snow; Though they are as red as crimson cloth, They will become like wool.

        Here:

        Isaiah 2:4
        He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore

        And here:

        Micah 4:3
        He will render judgment among many peoples And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore

        In the light of this:

        1 Peter 1:12
        It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer

        While it is certainly true that a little levin ferments the whole lump and a lot of levin makes the lump inedible, even the WT cannot make what is true untrue. Obviously, the Creator has a bone to pick with mankind and the angels are interested in the outcome because their realm is affeced to. The “vindication of Jehovah’s sovevereignty” or the “setting of matters straight” by the Creator will mean their home will at last be cleansed of undesirable and disruptive elements too.

        Are we really now come to the point where we may only express ourselves with words never used by the WT if we wish to be considered as speaking “truth”?

        • Burt Reynolds

          I don’t think Daisy was referring to the words, but their implied meaning, and often, though not in this case, their intent to ’embellish’ meaning, as in the watchtower’s constant search for new light to exert its control over the sheep. Added to that, differing perspectives on the subject only add to its depth, as do the hopes, aspirations and thinking of us all. I guess we all see our salvation according to our sins and knowledge of self, and our need to be correct.

          • Richard Long

            You are right. Time for more listening and less typing on my part. On reflection, Daisy is absolutely right to say that whatever kernel of truth the WT was in possession of certainty did not constitute God-given authority over Christ’s disciples. That was certainly a taking and Rutherford demonstrated mastery in the taking of illegitimate authority.

      • Burt Reynolds

        That’s true, but maybe that is why creation speaks for itself. Who can look at creation without attributing it to a maker with a purpose. Thus there are two ways to find Jehovah.

  • Craig Knight

    1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

    7The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

    Suffering for Being a Christian

    12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

    “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”a

    19So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    • “preached even to those who are now dead,”

      OMG! does that mean we talk to the dead beyond their grave?! ? :0

      stupid Mormons

      Eph 2:1
      Mt 8:22

      • Craig Knight

        The Mormon’s are definitely out in left field that’s for sure. Don’t they believe that animals go to heaven when they die? That would be kinda cool cause I love animals but that’s way nuts!!!

        • Burt Reynolds

          Jehovah knows when even a sparrow falls to earth. I have often pondered on this scripture as to what it means holistically. When we consider the vastness of creation, in that it would take, I think, one hundred thousand light years to cross our Milky Way and that the universe can only be thought of in billions of light years, and that is just in a straight line, it puts our thinking in its place. Given Jehovah’s love, I cannot discount the statement about a sparrow as being only illustrative, I.e., without the depth of compassion that it suggests and likewise, in our own judgement as to value, ‘as but dust upon the scales’.

          When Jehovah created man, he made the body and then ‘breathed the breath of life into his nostrils’. This separates the body from life, or at least gives us the clue that the body is a support mechanism for physical life forms. Consider the brain. There are reckoned to be more connections in the brain than there are stars in the universe. That is not fanciful thinking! But the connections that the brain makes, it does so by electricity and electricity is not life. Neither is blood one might suggest, but without either blood or electricity, how would we live? Both are inert of themselves and without purpose when not used.

          If Jehovah is the source of life, the life giver, ( one might ask from where else would we obtain life?), and thus life is an energy, and Jehovah’s own laws of mathematics demand that energy is a constant and only changes in it form, I.e., speed dissipates into heat, heat dissipates into growth, or food, or light, light dissipates into food and energy….ad infinitum, we have to ask ourselves, what happens when a support agency such as the body, can no longer support life? What we do know about this is that life also exists outside of the physical body and therefore is not dependant on a brain. The fact that a physical body can support such, is the real miracle, and not the other way around! Neither does life require natural energy, only the body, and we should bear in mind that true eternal independant life in itself, or rather of itself, is a gift from Jehovah. It might therefore be safe to assume that all essence of life remains with Jehovah and it is only our consciousness of it that dissipates at death. ( consciousness is not life). Perhaps this is why Jehovah can restore life and it’s memories and consciousness into a new body, because all life is a part of himself. I tend to think of life as an extension of Jehovah, lovingly lent to us, and that in all cases, life returns to Him when left unsupported naturally in whatever form.

          When I look at the innocent life on earth that only bring praise to Jehovah through their existence, I like to think that their life’s energy, essence, does not die and is gone forever, but that the experience remains with Jehovah from whence it came. How can anything so precious, so innocent, so purposeful in its role, ever be discarded? Each is a gem from the hand of Jehovah. Sparrows included. Of course, I just don’t know and animals have a purpose both in the food chain and in human comfort, but does that change the essence of life and the tender love of Jehovah for all his creation?

          • muldoon55 .

            Like 20:38 would certainly reinforce that view Burt where it says
            “He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive”
            As usual Burt, you bring great insight into the discussion

          • Craig Knight

            Burt – Man, I don’t know how I can add anything to what you said, that was really great! We really can”t begin to comprehend Jehovah’s mind but we know how loving He is to all his creation. The universe boggles my mind in fact it sort of shorts out my puny brain. I always have had pets. When I was a boy we had a little weiner dog and He was a major part of our family life. He slept in our beds with us and went on vacations with us. I think my Mother loved that dog more than us kids! She’d kiss the dog and pat us kids on the head! Ha ha! I have a weiner dog her name is Lily. She is so sweet. I also have a sunconure and I just love him to death. He crawls down my shirt and eats holes in my t shirts. So I have to buy new t shirts every month. Animal lovers know how smart these little creatures are and how sensitive they can be. Animals truly are a gift form our loving Father. I’m sure Jehovah has a loving plan for all his little innocent ones.In the new system I’m sure we will all return to being vegetarians and leave the animals to live a peaceful life alongside us.

            • Huldah

              Hi Craig
              I’ve enjoyed your comments.
              Love this thread.
              I have two awesome parrots too.
              Just got back from a trip to Costa Rica for dental surgery that lasted almost 20 days.
              My little Quaker Parrot
              never fails to acknowledge that I have been away.
              Everytime I come back he repeats “bubbye bubbye bubbye” over and over as his way of saying.” Wow, you’ve been gone a while!”
              Or “that was a long bubbye”.
              I use bubbye as my last words as I leave for the day. He knows it means I’ll be out a while.
              My crimson bellied conure, 6yrs old, just laid her first egg while I was gone. Silly girl.
              Animals are amazing, lol.

            • Craig Knight

              Hi Huldah! That’s awesome you have 2 parrots. I’m jealous. Parrots are little people aren’t they? My little sun conure Chili is a little clown. He will be all sweet giving me kisses and then out of the blue He bites my nose. I get such a laugh at how unpredictable He can be. Birds are very sensitive, it took me quite a while to build up the bond that I have with him. I go to Oregon for 12 days every 2 months or so and He really misses me when I’m gone. He gets a little depressed when I’m gone poor thing. I liked your comment to Burt about a reincarnation of sorts, maybe recycling their energy is a better term. I spent time in Buddhism so I don’t like that word reincarnation much. But anyway if Jehovah takes away all sorrow in the new system then surely animals will make us sad if they die. If you have ever lost a pet you know how sad that can be. So I have always felt that our little friends will return in some other form.

            • Huldah

              On reincarnation
              It’s not that a mouse turns into a grouse or a bat into a cat or a flea turns into a bee.
              Just that their basic “programming” is transferred to a new birth and set of circumstances.
              I get your aversion to the doctrine. I’d be interested to know how you were impacted by believing in reincarnation for a time. Does it instill a sort of hellfirelike fear?

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah I like how you put that. Well, I was grasping at straws when I got into Buddhism and Taoism and all that garbage. There is something very peaceful and calming about meditation and the gongs and bells and incense all the trappings of Buddhism. I really tried for a long time to make sense of it but as they say how can you make sense of nonsense? How does a person get reincarnated into another human or a rat if you were a bad person when there is no God to direct and control everything. It’s just nonsense like the Trinity or any other false hood, I never had any fear of reincarnation it just didn’t make sense no matter how much I read and I read a ton of Buddhist books. Satan tries to make Buddhism look all peaceful and relaxing and so it draws a lot of people a great percentage being homosexual, Another popular trap of the Devil.

            • The Raven

              When I want to relax I grab my fishing gear, fill a cooler with good bites, load up in the truck and head for the shoreline or the marina. I could spend hours contemplating…nothing but that little wiggle on the end of the rod and then…bam! The bobber goes straight down. Peace and happiness man!

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah me too! That’s why I bought a little place in Oregon. There are a ton of nice fishing spots there. Being up in nature is the best way to chill!

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Craig, is there was such a thing as re-incarnation, knowing my luck I would come back as me. What a downer. 🙂

            • Craig Knight

              Jamie – That’s hilarious! I couldn’t handle that either. The resurrection will be different. We will come back as ourselves but with young bodies and minds and no Devil around to mess with us. Living in God’s love and seeing first hand what real peace means.

            • Huldah

              Thanks for your reply. I somehow missed it.
              Interesting information.
              I know I’m drawn to the peace and relaxation part due to my anxiety problems. Satan sets us up with anxiety then baits us into his tailor made false religious “cure”.
              You must love truth to not be fooled. Many would have just accepted the mumbo jumbo because it felt good and not ever wondered why it didn’t make any sense. Guess it’s the Berean in you(or however you spell that).

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah having ocd I really loved the peacefulness of meditation. The Devil is a very crafty one with his bag of tricks and He knows what will work against us. We have to have our guard up all the time and of course ask for God’s protection.

          • The Raven

            Those thoughts are exactly why i wound up with 5 dogs and 7 cats. Family rescued a lot of critters from the streets and miserable owners. They often display their own sort of affection for us that i find lacking in humans. Sad.

          • Huldah

            Hi Burt
            Just got back from my trip yesterday. I can chew on my right side again!
            Yeahhh!
            Great points here.
            I’d like to add an idea that recently came to me that I find extremely comforting as regards animals.
            I have come to believe that they are extremely advanced AI or robots.
            I believe that Jehovah keeps their programming in mind and resurrects it intermittently. Though they were created to die because they don’t have the human “likeness of God” and unique absolute individuality, they likely have a “reincarnation” of sorts where they come back in a new set of circumstances over and over spanning many years. There is nothing forcing Jehovah from repeating programming on animals only on humans and angels.
            Comforts me to know they will have a second chance even if they got a raw deal the first go around. Our second chance is the resurrection, which brings us back not as our original basic programming at birth, but as the exact person we were at death.
            Maybe I’m just tired and this sounds totally crazy to everyone else, but it’s a keeper for me because it sure comforts me greatly!!??????????

            • The Raven

              Hi Huldah. Happy to here your doing much better!

              I mused that it could be a residual of creation of some sort from the Garden of Eden. Something that’s been placed within them to be not only in subjection to man but companions as well. We were close to all of them at one time but have since gotten far away from that ideal. Everything has deteriorated in the physical but pure love which holds it all together from top to bottom.Maybe that’s reflected in their capacity for affection for other life in it’s basic form. Us “higher” beings needs some tweaking! He placed within us the ability to grasp eternity what’s to say he didn’t place a few other qualities within every aspect of life that we can’t even begin to imagine? I am reminded that he also hides things from us and angels. When His Day arrives we will find out what things were supposed to be like. That will be wonderful!
              I would love to have a bird, but unfortunately my cats would love it even more. Maybe someday I can let them all outside. No more litter boxes! lol!

            • Richard Long

              We have a cat genie plumbed right into wall in the laundry room. Best pet device ever!

            • The Raven

              Cat genie? How does it work? I’ve seen pictures of it but wasn’t too sure. Anything to get rid of the damn litter boxes. Niece’s job to clean them and she hates it. I don’t blame her there!

            • Richard Long

              plastic self washing “granules”. requires purchase of cleaning solution cartridges and “granules”. can see video of it working online on youtube. I plumbed a separate drain and water supply because I made room for it under the folding countertop when I remodeled the laundry, but you can also tap into toilet or washer, if those are better placements for your family.

              http://www.catgenie.com/

            • The Raven

              That’s cool! I’ll see where I can place one since I can’t allow them in the bathroom. They like to play with toilet paper. I have come home to find they rolled my entire house. Rascals!

            • Richard Long

              the included drain and supply lines are long enough to place them a few feet from washer. my perfect placement was opposite end of laundry from appliances, hence the new plumbing. If you’re going to plumb, a closet or dead end hallway will work, too.

            • The Raven

              That gives me a few ideas. Thanks, man!

            • Huldah

              I have birds cause I’m allergic to cats.
              We have a neighborhood cat who I just found out has been napping in my Echinacea flowers while I was away. ( I accidentally sprayed him with the hose, but he forgave me)
              Lol
              Zoe, my CB Conure is now determined to commandeer my typing hand for a scritchers. Gotta make up for lost time.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! I turned on the faucet before and didn’t realize a cat was sleeping in the sink until he upended everything on the counter trying to get out! Your birds sound sweet.

            • John 3:16

              I have a cat that thinks he’s a parrot. No matter how many times I tell him I’m not a pirate, he still surprises me by jumping on my shoulder. And it’s always an ambush. He’ll even launch himself up there from the floor and I’m over 6″ tall!

            • Huldah

              That’s impressive, if not a little nerve jarring. I think I prefer a 100 gram parrot landing on my shoulder over a cat. Too funny.

            • John 3:16

              Well, he doesn’t make it all the way up in one jump. He gets most of the way there and digs in real good with his claws to make it the rest of the way 🙂 I have no idea why he likes doing that but it happens all the time. Sometimes he’ll just sit there, other times he’ll lay across my shoulders and the back of my neck like he’s a scarf lol. Maybe I should threaten to trade him in for a parrot!

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              It has recently been found that people aren’t actually allergic to cats. What you’re actually allergic to is there saliva when they clean themselves and lick their fur and wash their face it’s very caustic which causes an allergic reaction to are mucous membranes we’re not even allergic to dander it’s there saliva you can buy a spray that will reduce this caustic allergy just thought I’d let you know, In case you want to buy a cat

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              It has recently been found that people aren’t actually allergic to cats. What you’re actually allergic to is there saliva when they clean themselves and lick their fur and wash their face it’s very caustic which causes an allergic reaction to are mucous membranes we’re not even allergic to dander it’s there saliva you can buy a spray that will reduce this caustic allergy just thought I’d let you know, In case you want to buy a cat

            • Huldah

              Hi Rev
              I read your comment twice but neglected to answer you.
              I heard this. I was looking at hairless cats until I found out it’s their saliva. We do have a cute grey neighborhoid cat. He loooves me, of course, because I’m allergic, Lol.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Huldah, so pleased to hear your good news. I sometimes feel that with some of the things Robert comes up with we all need some pretty hefty molars to chew on it. You seem well equipped now!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I think there is food for thought there. I feel similarly, but on the plane that life is life….a sort of Buddhist concept of the value of every living creature ( not the religion). I do not feel, though happy to be corrected, that there are different levels of life, only different usage….life is life, but that we are equipped to experience the fullness of it according to our purpose. No one can suggest a snail can be politically aware for instance, but in its own right, it has all the equipment it needs to live in its place. We, I think it safe to say, have a unique purpose, but is the force of life different? I expect we will find out!

          • Cathii D’Anthonii

            Please, let me say this even though I’m not very intelligent and will probably regret even stating this here…I used to raise birds, hands-feed babies etc…and just frett over the disappearance of species that the rate this world is taking our animals and it is devastating…We as humans,have gotten to where we trust our pets more than people and are closer to them…Christ’s ransom did not cover them but they suffer…Jehovah can with a thought reintroduce all these lost creatures. Is it beyond Jehovah even to bring back favorite pets? We will be more balanced in the Paradise and have a better understanding of the animals. The vegan diet subject has-been beaten to death by JWs , but who knows..how wonderful it will be to be there in paradise with all the creation

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Jehovah will not forget none of his creations Including pets / animals or why else would he say”
              Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.Matthew 10:29

            • The Raven

              Wonderful thoughts Cathii. I’m sure He will take them into consideration in some way as they make us happy and He knows we are attached to them. I don’t know what His solution will be but I am confident it will be fine.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Cathii, we are all ignorant in the eyes of Jehovah. Even the deepest mind cannot fathom even the basis of time, or even of water, so don’t worry about feeling ignorant, just join the club! We all are. I don’t know if what you say could ever be, but I can truely say, and feel, that I wish it were. The ransom of Christ does not cover the animals, it’s true, but in my thinking on the matter, why would his sacrifice need to? Can any of us point to an animal and say ‘you have sinned against God?’ I have always understood from the bible that animals ‘can only’ bring praise to Jehovah. I have never seen an animal act against nature, though I have seen many induced behaviours from man emerge in them. So too, I have had not one friend in my entire life…you guys, all of you, are the first people I have associated with whom I feel I could knock on your door and expect a welcome. Not that I’m a sad loner, but it was just a need absent in my life. My friend has always been my dog and for one reason and one reason only, in that they are true….faithful in their ‘simple’ undemanding loyalty, honest and full of character. A reflection of Jehovahs love freely given in the most biblically derided animal. I really do not feel that if we can feel such affinity with an animal, how could Jehovah not hold the epitome of the feeling in himself? If Jehovah can allow Satan to upheave the world for six thousand years so that innocence and love can be restored, then how can he ignore such values in his animal kingdom? Maybe I anthropomorphise, and perhaps it is a natural hope of us all when a family dog dies in one’s arms, but I think not. Clearly life’s experiences are of value to Jehovah as they have been to the Angels in both good and bad motives. Can there be different forms of value in the primary principles of love? Again, I think not, but we must wait and see….yet the bible also indicates how great the mercy of Jehovah is. I don’t have the wit to separate the two.

            • Craig Knight

              Burt as usual says it brilliantly! We are all a bunch of dummies compared to God. My older Brother is a college educated man who speaks like 5 different languages including French, Spanish, Greek and Latin etc. But He has no common sense and is very arrogant and to top it off He is an evolutionist. So you and I are smarter than the smartest people because we try to please God which is the whole obligation of man.
              1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. God hates arrogant people. We will all have an eternity to gain knowledge but wisdom seems the best course to follow especially now that the end is so close.

            • Huldah

              As to bringing pets back. I would do it and I am not wholly love as God IS love. What would love do? What harm would it do? None I can see. Then what prevents a loving creator from making his creation happy and bringing about justice?

        • The Raven

          I’ve had some weird talks with them. They also baptize the dead by proxy.

          • Craig Knight

            I read a book on John Smith a few years ago. That guy was as demon possessed as you can get. He had little demon friends when He was a kid. I’m sure Satan used him to create another knuckle headed religion to distract more people. Since He spoke with an angel that made him good as gold in the Moron’s uhh Mormon’s eye’s. Mohammed spoke to an angel too and look what Islam has turned into. Whatever happened to testing supposedly divine information? John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

            • The Raven

              I don’t know much about them but in my discussions with a close friend who was raised as a Mormon and rebelled he told me some strange things about them. For example, the underwear and the baptism for the dead. He wasn’t buying any of it and came into the truth through correspondence with me. He insisted on the Geneva Bible which was fine by me. It reads beautifully but it is a little difficult to understand. I eventually got him round to the nwt and he began to see beyond the tenets and trappings of Christendom. He was very confused about religion and had given up hope until it began to make sense to him. He ran with it from there! lol! He calls me every so often to tell me what he’s learned as he travels extensively and has surprised me with some things I did not know.
              Here’s a picture of the font where proxy baptisms are done:

              Baptismal font in the Salt Lake Temple, circa 1912, where baptisms for the dead are performed by proxy. The font rests on the backs of twelve oxen representing the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
              https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Salt_Lake_temple_baptismal_font.jpg

            • Craig Knight

              What an awful gaudy looking thing yikes!! That Religulous Movie I was mentioning has a bit on the Morman’s that will have you laughing. It makes fun of the underwear that protects them from Satan and also He interviews two ex Mormon’s who were shunned by family and friends just like some group we know. You should send your old friend Robert’s book.

            • The Raven

              He has been visiting this site. So he knows…

            • Craig Knight

              Very cool!

            • Huldah

              I once had a return visit with one of my former students. He was trying to gain some sort of office in the Mormon Church. We gave him a ride every once in a while. Eerily, only a few months after we started talking to him about the truth, we found out he had been arrested for murder.

            • The Raven

              Oh geez that’s creepy! I’m glad the friend I know saw it for what it was and avidly sought answers. His father is a deacon but his parents did not shun him or his sister. She left also and married outside the faith. She became a lawyer. He works in construction. It’s funny when I began speaking with him about this he had a very low opinion of jws. It took months before he was able to see the basic truth without all the prophetic nonsense and added non scriptural requirements attached to it from their materials. I told him to STOP going to the jwo site back then. He’s been haunting this site for several years now. He recites scripture now like he’s been doing it all his life! He told me last year that a number of Rasta brothers from his work were also keenly interested in this. I just have to believe that heaven rejoices each time one seeks and finds Jehovah.

        • thing i give em credit for is helping neighbor but their religion is such a
          obvious lie its ridiculise people support it. gotta be lousy living in denial all the time. much like the leaders at Bethel with their 1914 lie

          • Craig Knight

            Yeah I really don’t get how people can fall into some of these crazy religions like Mormon’s or Scientology. Scientology is off the charts crazy! If you want a good laugh at religions of the world you have to go get Religulous a dvd which was made by Bill Maher. It’s so funny! Maher has no respect for God but He sure makes the worlds religions look crazy. It’s worth a look. Has anybody else seen that movie?

            • Huldah

              I love Bill Maher. Heard of it. Now I think I have to see it.

            • Craig Knight

              Prepare to laugh yourself silly!

      • Burt Reynolds

        I think the scripture was simply referring to the fact that both the living and the dead are judged by the same standard. Jehovah knows/knew the heart condition.

      • The Raven

        I get it. Lol!

        • yeah they use that scripture to support their baptizing the dead baloney. embarrassing hearing that from them being so out of context.
          trained well with their rebuttals but not the truth

          • The Raven

            Exactly!

    • Burt Reynolds

      Those are really good explanatory scriptures Craig. Thanks for those.

  • Easach L S of Coimbatore

    The last paragraph is like a chilly powder in a wound. Well I appreciate that brother

  • Daisy

    Burt..
    Yes, that’s right! It wasn’t the words! Gnat straining lol! Its the ‘issue’ based on a ‘concept’ by ‘implication’imo and have to say that I’ve not read the articles the Questioner mentions but I’m compelled to answer ‘yes’ to the question as to whether the WT’s ‘concept ‘ of ‘vindicating of Jehovah’s sovereignty is another false teaching that the WT made up to control JWs’.

    The words ‘vindicating Jehovah’s sovereignty ‘ are unsupported in scripture for a reason (apart from inventing an idea). Jehovah IS Sovereign, obvious universal truths don’t have to be stated to be true no question about it; Sovereign = supreme power and authority…Supreme= highest rank or authority; vindication unnecessary…jehovah is not a liar, he is innocent therefore the onus is upon Suntan to prove his case and he’s had 6000 yrs to do so, failing miserably. The vast heavenly host of angels bear witness to God’s sovereignty for billions of years before Adam & Eves rebellion… or why are only 8 million people aware that His sovereignty needs vindicating …a very small number of humans who are supposed to be involved in this issue.
    Is our faith supposed to be based on a ‘concept’ ( rhetorical question) and if so, then why not believe in the Trinity- which is also a concept . Sorry, son is kicking off, can’t concentrate…

    • Richard Long

      Sorry Daisy. You are clearly thinking on a higher plane than many of us (me!) I would delete my post but I think the commentary resulting from it is already and may continue to be beneficial to onlookers.

      • Beverly kenyon

        You’re right Richard as she’s brought up some fantastic points to really think about and it’s Satan who’s in the dock as he’s the criminal and here’s some things written on his charge sheet….liar, slanderer and murderer, traitor. After 6000 years his case has fallen apart but he was sentenced to death back in Eden but God had to redeem imperfect mankind through his Son nevertheless. Genesis 3:15.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I had not thought of it that way. Now you mention it, it is certainly a valid point to me. Is this not also why one cannot swear by jehovah? Or come to that, bless jehovah for his love ? Again, there is some mileage in putting the issue on a slant as you suggest. The onus is upon Satan…….or Suntan as you said…..I just love the spell correct system at times ……it gets me too….to prove his arguement, but his failure will prove true, the words of Jehovah and that is where the word ‘vindication’ is applied. Vindication means, as you know, ‘the action of clearing one of blame…..which of course is not necessary in Jehovah’s case, but is the majority thinking of the watchtower, yet the word also has a secondary meaning, ‘proof that someone is right’, (which is undoubtably true as Jehovah is spoken of in the male gender and therefore ends the arguement in my opinion!) But seriously, Satan, will provide that truth though his failure without Jehovah so much as lifting a finger. So in fact, you are correct on both scores.

      • Daisy d

        Thank you Burt.
        Just to add; any accusations Satan has made against God was answered a long time ago when Jesus died without breaking his integrity, because HE is the ‘very heart of the truth’, ‘faithful witness ‘ …faithful in his promises to those who love him Rev 3:14
        because he is, always will be like his Father, dependable and trustworthy.
        BTW, I’ve no real wish to be correct. I’m just searching for truth dear brother. All the best Burt :daisy

        • You are right, Daisy. That is why Jesus stated that he beheld Satan already fallen from heaven like lightning. Still, those called and chosen must ultimately prove to be faithful into death too. Upping the ante, so-to-speak, after the final sealing that means God is done calling and choosing, so that those remaining must be faithful or else God will prove false to his word of harvesting 144,000. That is why after his ouster from heaven Satan goes off to war against the remaining offspring of the woman. Of course, the WT says that already happened. I think not.

          • Daisy d

            Thanks! Don’t know what you mean, but thanks!
            Speaking of the WT…I’m just reading about the Jezebel spirit, i know you’ve mentioned that somewhere…fascinating…which has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God lol!
            Can’t see anybody chosen or called making God out to be liar…nite…

          • The Raven

            So, technically the issue of sovereinty is settled but the events that must yet occur will be the final word on any questions or doubts remaining. The “implications” of the wto not withstanding, since we already know their motivations will also mean they as will the rest of the world will “have to know that I am jehovah”.

          • meaning that although he chosses whom he wishes not based from their desire or effort but from his mercy & compassion, they obviously had faith in relationship with him before being chosen and must remain faithful which does require works in order to define their faith which is in hand with loyalty, something that separates us from the moon.

            no?

        • Searcher

          Hi daisy you may find this article of interest

          http://beroeans.net/2017/08/13/keep-your-eyes-on-the-big-issue/

          • Daisy

            Thanks Searcher….glad I’m on the right track as I’m always not sure that what I say is correct! Happy hunting Searcher… Daisy Best wishes. If you don’t mind, are you in UK?

            • Searcher

              I’m very fortunate as i live on the beautiful gold coast Australia. Beautiful white sandy beaches and warm weather all year round.

            • Searcher

              Australia

    • Richard Long

      Robert has made his point. Others I respect equally have elsewhere made another I believe no critically thinking reader could argue against. I am certain Robert would not want any of us to consider him the final authority,but rather a watchman seeing what he sees and saying what he sees.

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