How could Jesus be a created being?

//How could Jesus be a created being?

Stumper Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses #37

QUESTION: John 1:3 says in reference to Christ, “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence”. How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to John 1:3 Jesus would have had to create himself.

Sometimes little words are very important in determining the meaning of statements. Take the word “through” for example. On dictionary.com the word has various shades of meaning and can be used as an adjective, adverb, conjunction or as a preposition. As it appears at John 1:3 it is a preposition. The basic meaning conveyed has to do with being an agent of God, a conduit, by means of which God creates. This simple truth is conveyed in Genesis where God invited an unnamed entity to join him in the act of creation, when he said: “let us make man in our image.”

Other passages make this more clear. For example, Colossians 1:13-16 explains Jesus’ role this way: “He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.”

“He” in the opening words is in reference to God. Paul indicates that Jesus is the image of God, the beloved Son and God gave him the privilege of creating everything else. It should be evident though, at least to reasonable people, that Jesus did not create himself. God made him as the beginning of all creation.

We also see the similar phrase as in John 1:3, which says that “all things have been created through him.” But Paul also stated that creation came about “by means of him.”

Obviously if God was the sole agent there would be no need to explain the role of the Son. But, Paul’s explanation enables truth-seekers to understand why Jesus is called the only-begotten Son of God. He was the only thing or person that God directly created, because God then empowered his firstborn to create everything else. That is why the Scriptures say “through him” and “by means of him” God created all things.

By way of illustration, suppose someone sends a valuable gift package to you through the postal service. On the receiving end you could say that the package was delivered through the post office or by means of an agent working in the employ of the postal system. But would you consider the deliverer of the package as being the giver? Would you send the delivery person a thank you note for his/her wonderful generosity? Probably not.

In the opening words of his letter to the Hebrews Paul again explains the relationship between God and Jesus, saying: “Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power.”

Notice that Jesus has been appointed by God as the heir of all things. Nobody appoints God to anything, do they? Does God inherit his own creation? Of course not.

Furthermore, Paul reiterates that it was “through” the Son God made the systems of things. Not only that, to underscore the fact that Jesus is in God’s image Paul emphasized that Jesus is “the exact representation” of Jehovah’s very being. Going back to Genesis, that is why God said “let us make man in our image.”

As the firstborn of all creation Jehovah made his Son exactly like himself and by means of him God created everything else. And because God is so generous he gave everything to his first son, making him heir of all things.

The real question is, why is that simple truth so hard for churchgoers to accept?

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2016-12-08T15:10:28+00:00 April 7th, 2016|Answers|251 Comments
  • Rose Castro

    Even though some people maybe intelligent, I can’t understand why they don’t get the fact that Jesus and Jehovah are two distinct individuals…

    • iscamer

      They are two distinct individuals. That is the nature of the Triune God. Better to understand the actual theology of Christians so as to at least have legitimate dialogue.

      • Merton

        This isn’t quite true and it’s a product of trinitarians not fully understanding their own doctrine and/or appealing to the misdirection tools that their doctrine permits. They do claim the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct individuals but they also claim Jesus is Jehovah, The Father is Jehovah, Holy Spirit is Jehovah.
        It’s a word game, constantly changing definitions of God/Jehovah to fit their needs thereby shifting goalposts.

        • iscamer

          Jehovah is not a Hebrew word. I would use YHWH. Jesus never called the Father, YHWH, God has many names which depict His character and attributes. It is not a label, like Rose or Merton. Jesus is the First and The Last. He is The I AM. These claims are all in the bible. No where have I read that YHWH is the Father only.

          • Sam

            ridiculous. Jehovah isn’t a Hebrew word you say, but YHWH most certainly isn’t. Its 4 Hebrew consonants. Nowhere have you read that Jehovah God, the God of Jesus is the father only? Truly clueless

            • iscamer

              Not sure what your point is. If Jehovah is a made up word, why do you use it?

            • Darren Wilks

              Be humble Iscamer.. You are just a little misguided. Pray. You’re triune god is demonic.. that part is wrong. Sorry. You probably believe in Hell fire too. Your demonic god is going to go to his proper place soon.

            • iscamer

              I agree that humility is crucial. God opposes the proud. I do come in peace and only look for reasonable dialogue.

            • Darren Wilks

              Your Triune God that you profess that burns humans forever in Hell Fire for eternity because of eighty years of disobedience is more evil than Molech. I will never worship your god. Ever. But Jehovah that is gracious and abundant in loving kindness. Showing favor to the thousandth generation of those that love him. I will love and serve him forever. Do yourself a favor and humble yourself before him and let him reveal himself to you.

            • Ed(the other Ed)

              I wonder what kind of image will be forced upon the world to worship in the last hour. Will it be a three headed image or just one?

            • Bklyn Kevin
            • Bklyn Kevin
            • Bklyn Kevin

              Excerpt from Jehovah’s Witnesses & the Mark of the Beast
              Apparently, the image will become manifest in the form of a world government, one capable of controlling earth’s affairs to the extent that no one will be able to buy or sell without placating the political image in some way that would compromise a Christian’s stand. Ostensibly, at this point the United Nations Organization is the only institution capable of exerting control to that extent. Read more>https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-the-mark-of-the-beast/

            • Ed(the other Ed)

              Thanks, I’ve watched them before, I’m probably due for another showing they’re way better than regurgitating phony WT material.

            • ha, funny

            • iscamer

              He did reveal himself to all of us in the person of Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior.

            • Darren Wilks

              You’re almost correct… Jehovah revealed himself to us by sending his Son who learned all that he did from watching his Father.

            • Darren Wilks

              No offense, but you really don’t sound like you’ve thought your argument through. Jesus is the english version of Yehoshua.. why do you use the name Jesus and not Yehoshua? Because we speak english, right?

            • iscamer

              Yeshua would be correct in Hebrew but the NT was written in Greek. Jesus is the right transliteration of the word. Jehovah is not. Big difference.

            • Darren Wilks

              Oh ok.. are you sure? Jesus doesnt have Zeus’s name in it? In the spanish it certainly does. Please do some research.

              Jesus was a hebrew.. he was given a name by Mary and Joseph.. it was Yehoshua.

            • iscamer

              Yes but the language used to transliterate to English was Greek, not Hebrew.

            • Darren Wilks

              I think I’m done iscamer.. How did you find this website? What brought
              you here? Did you pray to know God better? Did you find it by
              accident?

            • then translate his Son’s name from Hebrew to English and guess what, its still Jesus. Jehovah is what us english speaking people use here when pronouncing God’s name. if you dont like that, tough, it has already been decided on long ago that is what will be used and it has been ever since. it is now the common english translation. V’ger has spoken.

            • iscamer

              Ha, is that a reference to one of the Star Trek movies? V’ger?

            • how long have you been a trinitarian?

            • iscamer

              7 years

            • iscamer

              Uh, that is what you choose to use but it is incorrect and has been widely criticized for it’s inaccuracy. Heck even the Society has backed of their insistence that it is linguistically correct.

            • https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/85d0945e491832c2fc9fcdbbd8669e929e9b8a899471fe9cb273073852bb4d49.png

              language works by what is commonly accepted. it is incorrect to you because you do not accept it. tomato tomahto; widely criticized or is that criticised? oh well. that is how language works. ain’t ain’t a word and i ain’t gonna say it… if that is not how you feel it should be translated to pronounce for english, its too late because that is what has been decided on and now been common for a long time. you could try starting your own way but what are the chances it will catch on.
              the point is that his name distinguishes him and that is working perfectly and besides english in many other languagrs round the globe. or around the globe.

            • iscamer

              Yes, I get what you are saying. I dont God has a problem with the incorrect pronunciation, but I bring it up because JWs bring it up as one of their distinguishing marks of being the only true organization of God. If they speak to God directly via the angels, you would think they would get the pronunciation right. Anyway, I think we agree to diagree on this one.

            • the angels would pronounce it the way we do in our accepted language. maybe you got the point but english has changed since the tower of bable. if i pronounce and spell banana as nana, then thats what it is in the land of my language. if the angels started talking about bananas, then i would be lost cause they are not speaking my jive. if they spoke to me saying the way they pronounce it, i would be lost. they would have to speak my language by saying Jehovah because that is how it is said over here.

              the only angel im awear of, if speaking, to anyone in the WT, is Satan to his man of lawlessness

          • Merton

            Who is Yahweh in Joel 2:19-27? Isn’t this the Father speaking here and he’s saying there is no other God besides him?

            • iscamer

              There is no indication what person of God is speaking specifically. Just , God.

            • Merton

              So who is speaking? Please note trinitarians are not allowed to say ‘God is speaking’ because they have around 6 definitions for God:

              1. The Father
              2. The Son
              3. The Holy Spirit
              4. The divine nature
              5. Divine
              6. The Triune God

              Whereas non-trinitarians are allowed to say ‘God is speaking’ because non-trinitarians have 1 definition of God: The Father. Therefore when non-trinitarians say ‘God is speaking’ it is easily understood as ‘The Father is speaking’.

              So please, for the sake of our understanding your point of view, we would like to know who is speaking in the Joel 2:19-27 passage.

            • iscamer

              Don”t think you understand the doctrine of the Trinity. Since God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same essence, they speak in unison. The passage you speak of gives no indication that anyone was speaking but God..

            • Merton

              ‘The passage you speak of gives no indication that anyone was speaking but ________..’

              Like i said, this is very easy. All you need to do is replace the word God with one of the trinitarians 6 definitions. Because you are not defining what you mean by God, you are confusing me and not making it particularly clear for the people you are trying to convert on this site. For example if you see a car parking sign saying ‘FINE for parking here’:

              a. it’s fine to park here
              b. you will receive a fine for parking here

              what the car parking sign really needs to say in order to be understood is ‘ACCEPTABLE for parking here’ or “FINANCIAL PENALTY for parking here’. Hope this helps you understand why you must define what you mean by God.

              However you did manage to give away what you are really trying to say. You said

              ‘Since God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same essence, they speak in unison’

              So is it the three persons of the Godhead saying this, or is it the divine nature saying this in Joel? (the trinity is 3 persons who have one divine nature, so is this one divine nature saying this?)

            • iscamer

              God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.All 3 persons. The Divine Nature you speak of is not a person of God but his character and attributes. They all speak individually but in complete harmony.

            • Merton

              You’re avoiding the question. But you’re right, the divine nature is a WHAT, not a WHO, so we can rule out that definition here because it is WHOS who say things not WHATS.

              Very easy question. I want to know WHO is speaking in Joel 2:19-27. It’s easy for us non-trinitarians. We have one definition for God, the Father, therefore it is God the Father who is saying these words in verse 27, that He is Jehovah God and there is no one else.

            • iscamer

              Your choice may be easy but can you prove it?

            • Merton

              If I can prove it, would you admit that the speaker of this passage is God and there is no-one else except him who is God? So if this happened to be the Father talking here, he alone is God that these words exclude anybody else from being God?

            • iscamer

              I completely agree there is only the true God and there is no other beside him. If the Father was God, what point would there be in calling him Father? He would just be God or YHWH or The Almighty.

            • Brian

              So who are you saying the Father is? If God (Jehovah) is the one that brought forth his only begotten son as with labour pains, does this not make him Jesus father, and if God is going to have a group of people selected and taken from the earth to made into “sons” of God, does this not make him their father also?

            • Merton

              Robert are you deleting my comments? Is there something wrong with them?

            • ewatchman

              No. For some reason this Disqus thing goes a bit wonky and kicks some comments into the spam folder. I never check the spam bin unless someone mentions something. I approved about 9 comments. I guess I ought to start checking it regularly. Just one more thing.

            • Merton

              Great. Even the spam folder is a trinitarian.

            • Merton

              Because he’s Father to a bunch of Sons and Daughters??? Jesus being the firstborn and then Jesus’ brothers and sisters??

              The Father/Yahweh/Jehovah/Jah/YHWH. He’s got a few names. So what.

            • Brian

              You are correct in referring to the Trinity as being a doctrine. John 14:20
              “In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you.” If Jesus being in union with the Father generates a cause for two parts of a Triune entity to come together, what does the unity with the chosen ones create? I see this union as being no different to when a man and woman marry and the two become as one in union with each other, of course they are still separate beings but are supposed to operate as one(wishful thinking!).

            • iscamer

              That is a representation of our union with Christ, but Jesus and the Father are the same in essence character, power, personality and holiness.

            • Brian

              That is not what it is saying as he includes those that are chosen to be brothers of his and sons of God. Jesus is union with his brothers just as he is in union with Jehovah.
              A union is just that, united just as when I mentioned the directive about a man and a woman being joined together as one, this statement came form above, it is not a man made directive, what it does give you is an understanding of what it means to be in union with someone.
              So yes Jesus is in union with the Father just as the sons will be in union with the Father, but it doesn’t make it a 144,003 God head.
              Of course Jesus and Jehovah have the same attributes as you are mentioning, it does not make them the same being though.
              Jesus brothers, once the brothers are sealed together with him in the heavens they share with him something that the rest of creation has not been availed, Eternal existence, no other creature has this ability, not even Jesus in his pre human existence as the first-born of all creation had this, but since his “successful” sacrifice as a perfect human he gained this ability so it does give him a sort of equality of Jehovah.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              TO ISCAMER
              Well If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same as YOU believe, then why would Jesus gives the kingdom back to his father as stated in 1st Corinth:15:24: Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same, then how it will be possible for Jesus himself will subject to his father if they are one and the same. Read 1st Corinth:15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. Is Jesus subjecting to himself? If you still believe that they are one and the same even an Hindu (already some Muslims) will Ridicule if he reads1st Corinth:15:28

          • Bklyn Kevin
            • iscamer

              The Greek is grammatically correct and the Pharisee’s who heard it(highly educated men) understood exactly what He said

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Psalms 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

              Psalms 118:8 It is better to take refuge in JehovahThan to trust in humans.

            • patri

              Where did the Pharisees come from, nobody knows “highly educated men” they may have been but spiritually blind they preferred to be.Didnt they try to intimidate Jesus and trap him in his speech, and werent they lurking with the mob in the garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was seized.
              As for understanding “exactly” what Jesus said, well only when Jesus asked them how it was possible for David’s lord also to be David’s son were the tricky questionings silenced. Psalm 110:1
              Not once in the NT will you find God/Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH – its all the same – referring to Himself as ‘lord’ ( let alone speaking to Himself)!

          • Bklyn Kevin
          • Brian

            What do you imagine the first and the last to mean?

            • iscamer

              God is the First and the Last. It means among other things nothing came before and nothing will outlast God. Jesust is the First and the Last. No beginning, no end.

            • Brian

              Jesus is the first and the last yes, he is the first of all creation directly by Jehovah and the last to be created directly as all things created after him came through him, this makes him the first and the last.

            • iscamer

              Jesus is called the first and the last, the same as god. No caveat as you describe.If Jesus had a beginning as you say that term implies, then so would God. No where does the bible say The Father created the Son. It easily could have been said if true. God created all things, jesus created all things.

          • Rose Castro

            On the other hand, I am aware that Jesus never seemed to have called the father by the name or the Tetragrammaton YHWH. Then again, maybe I just don’t know…

            • Brian

              Out of respect, just as here on the earth, you don’t call your father by his name, so Jesus was correct in calling Jehovah father.

            • Rose Castro

              Yes, I suppose that’s possible too…

            • iscamer

              The names of God are all descriptive of his character, not a label like we have. Jesus’ choice of Father and Abba certainly signifies his relationship is like no other. My point is Jehovah is a mistaken transliteration by a catholic monk that no bible or language expert recognizes. Much better to use YHWH if one is to personify God by this one name. Thanks for your comment

            • Darren Wilks

              If your going to be a purist.. please use Yehoshua’s name from now on too. Personally I don’t have a problem with it and will speak the Hebrew names if you wish.. Don’t be stumbled.

            • did Jesus read scripture? (read my comments)

            • hows your studies coming along?

              Luke 4:17Isiah 61:1, 2 “The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn,…”

            • Rose Castro

              Oh hi! I haven’t being here in a while. Sorry, I need to be honest. Is not going. I am no longer studying. That’s all I will say publicly. Thanks so much for asking. At least, someone cares…

            • 1-Peter 5:7

            • Rose Castro

              I read it. Thank you so much!

          • Darren Wilks

            Well I guess its time to start calling Jesus Yehoshua then.. and the prophets Benyamin, Yerimyah, Yoel. Yohan and Matithyahu would be good to reference too. Or maybe, just maybe, The true and living God that created language understands his name in all languages. That’d be convenient so we don’t have to learn Hebrew.

            • Jonah Peter Paul

              that’s smart! think the same way too. I just do not have the patience to debate with trinitarians cause no matter how clearly wrong you have proved them to be, they still won’t accept any other thing except for what they already believe in.

            • Merton

              You are so very right K, JWs are fiercely passionate about worshipping the One God, The Father that I should have more trust and faith that they won’t be tricked by a trinitarian.

              The trinitarians games are built on things called logical fallacies especially around the word ‘God’ and the problem with logical fallacies is that they appear on the surface to be very convincing but once properly understood they are complete nonsense. The reason they can’t see the errors in the doctrine is that they themselves cannot see the logical fallacies. And they have also been conditioned that finding bible truth is second to defending the trinity doctrine. That’s why they often feel at liberty to employ eisegesis into any text where they think they can get away with trinitarian doctrine.

              You’ll notice whenever I or anybody else completely rebukes one of their arguments (such as the God gives his glory to no-one else routine) they never apologise for being a false teacher, or infact never accept that they were wrong about this particular argument because it is seen as an attack on their doctrine. This proves that defending the doctrine is more important that sincerely finding bible truth.

              Anyway i’ve said my part.

            • Jonah Peter Paul

              I knew that you could handle it. So I rarely join in in discussions about trinity. To me it has been always clear that that belief is false and extremely nonsensical. I admire your determination to show them how flawed their beliefs are. Like I told you, I on the other hand, just has no patience to debate that kinds of topic. Just the mere fact that a person can believe something as far-fetched and bizarre such as the doctrine of trinity itself puts me off, for me it simply means that the person has no no common sense at all or logic. It’s a sign that it would be almost impossible to make them see the truth so I simply don’t bother.

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          Well If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same as You believe, then why would Jesus gives the kingdom back to his father as stated in 1st Corinth:15:24: Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same, then
          how it will be possible for Jesus himself will subject to his father if they are one and the same. Read 1st Corinth:15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. Is Jesus subjecting to himself? If you still believe that
          they are one and the same even an Hindu (already some Muslims) will Ridicule if
          he/she reads1st Corinth:15:28.

      • Rose Castro

        Yeah, but a dialogue that makes no sense can hardly be legitimate, thanks for your comment.

      • or even better you not comment here anymore. nobody here is fond of your three headed demon

      • Rose Castro

        I responded to you and my comment got deleted. So, like I said, any dialogue that does not make sense can’t be legitimate and the trinity makes no sense. A lot of other stuff makes no sense as well.

      • Rose Castro

        Who keeps deleting my comments??? That is so rude. Again, the theory of the trinity makes no sense. So, it is not legitimate dialogue to begin with…Please whoever keeps deleting my comments stop. People should have the right to express themselves freely.

  • Song of Hannah

    Excellent scriptual essay. But I gotta say, that graphic of Jesus is just amazing!

  • I really enjoyed your article Robert it was very enlightening I really like the perspective you gave thank you.

  • 博客多久更新一次?

  • Only by being deceptive can Satan turn people against the loving God, Jehovah. (1 John 4:8) Through deception, Satan keeps people from becoming “conscious of their spiritual need.” (Matt. 5:3) He has thus “blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”—2 Cor. 4:4

    • Brian

      That would be his function on the earth. When the Kingdom does arrive, the astute will see and understand the glorious news that the Kingdom has indeed arrived.

  • Darren Wilks

    Thank you for this. I have a trinitarian friend that I shared this with, and he still doesn’t get it. Its truly amazing how thick Satan’s deception is in some people’s minds. I pray that Jehovah will give people clarity of thought when the chosen ones shine as brightly as the sun!!

    • Sharon Groves

      thank-you robert for a well written article,i understand correct me if im wrong that only begotten describes christ as unique,differant,set apart,from other angelic creation,i understand that christ is in every way shape and form the exact image of jehovah god.but where i seem to run into a problem is proving that christ was created by jehovah using the word paul used firstborn from colossians 1,because from there i would always then go to proverbs where the same word is used that is how i was taught to defend this topic,until a gentelman in service brought to my attention that the word firstborn here does not mean firstborn as we think it to mean and then he proved it to me using the same word speaking about methusula who was not the firstborn,then he pointed out thatt in proverbs its really referring to wisdom.can you help thank-you sharon.

      • ewatchman

        That is an old con game trinitarians try to run. It is true that there are a few exceptions in the Bible where the one who was not literally the firstborn got the blessings of the firstborn. However – and this is where common sense comes in, which is in short supply with trinitarians – even though someone was not literally firstborn, they were still BORN. God was never born. He has always existed.

        Being the firstborn of siblings is a term to define the relationship of brothers and sisters. The simple fact is, though, God has no brothers or sisters. He has no peer. Describing God as the firstborn as a way of him supposedly stating his prominence among his peers is stupid.

        But let’s face it, stupidity is a hallmark of the trinitarian doctrine. Think about it, God claims to be his own Son, but neither one is father or son to the other? Come on. That is just stupid!

        • iscamer

          No con game, just correct grammar. First created could have been easily used here but it wasn’t as it is not true and would conflict directly with how Jesus is described elsewhere in the bible.

          • ewatchman

            You mean like at Revelation 3:14 where Jesus said he was “the beginning of the creation by God”?

            • iscamer

              Noun[edit]

              ἀρχή • ‎(arkhḗ) f ‎(genitive ἀρχῆς); first declension

              beginning, origin

              sovereignty, dominion, authority

              Again, improper understanding of the grammar. Jesus is the source, the beginning. Genesis 1:1 and Colossians 1:16 would concur with this view.

            • Brian

              Beginning yes, beginning of all things that were created, first born of all creation, origin, original creation. the point is that he was created, God on the other hand is eternal and is not part of the creation, he is the creator.

            • iscamer

              That is not what the scripture is saying. Genesis 1:1 says “in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” Does this mean that God began his existence at that time? Of course not. Jesus was the beginning of creation, the source, the starter of it all the authority as the word arkhe means. Colossians 1:16 and John 1:13 are clear as to who created what.

            • Brian

              You are actually confusing yourself, Jesus was the first born of all creation, through him and ultimately by him all other things came into existence.
              Check out Proverbs 8, all of it and then get back to us!

            • iscamer

              Beautiful scripture. Wisdom.

            • Brian

              1 Corinthians 1:24 Jesus is the wisdom of God, this is what Proverbs 8 is referring to.

            • iscamer

              It is true that Jesus is all things and in all things, but this verse is clearly speaking about wisdom in a feminine gender which would preclude it speaking of the person of God the Son.

            • Brian

              How do you come to the conclusion that Proverbs 8 is somehow a reference feminine wisdom, in the time that it would be referring to their was neither masculine or feminine. The spirit realm as far as I know is androgynous.
              What does “the earliest of his achievements” mean to you? The earliest to me means just that, before anything else was ever achieved, i.e. “first-born of all creation” meaning any and everything that has come into being.

            • iscamer

              Because the scripture itself says so.

            • Brian

              Point me to the bit that you think sounds feminine, well don’t point to it it is the “I was brought forth as with labour pains” section.

            • iscamer

              I thought you said there is no procreation in heaven. Why would there be labor pains.

            • Brian

              “as with labour pains” not literal ones, read it!

            • iscamer

              So God is androgynous?

            • Brian

              Do you think he has an appendage? Do they procreate as man and woman?

            • iscamer

              Of course not. The bible describes God in the male gender, does it not? GOD is nev er called an it or a she.

            • Brian

              Yes I know it refers to God in the “male gender”, this would more than likely be for our benefit as we have NO idea about the spirit realm other than the little that is described in the scriptures, also these messages and images have been channelled to man, it would help man understand a little about the creator to describe god in such a way.

            • iscamer

              So in the same Wisdom in these verse is speaking about wisdom in the feminine gender. 1 to 12.

            • Merton

              I find this quite amusing that you’re willing to say feminine pronouns prove that this isn’t talking about the son, yet when it comes to singular masculine pronouns you claim it is talking about multiple persons of the Godhead. If God is constantly describing himself as a He as opposed to a US or THEY shouldn’t you naturally assume it is talking about 1 person.

              This is something we can agree on. Wisdom is always personified as a female in the book of proverbs who a righteous man should espouse as one would espouse a bride.

              Proverbs 1:20-21
              Proverbs 8 like you said also used feminine pronouns

              we see the same thing in the New Testament

              Luke 7:35
              Matthew 11:19

              It is quite absurd to suppose that the inspired Scriptures would be consistently portraying Wisdom as a woman and God’s son was that woman.

            • iscamer

              In this verse it is. I did not say it always does. Did I? It certainly isn’t talking about Jesus.

            • Merton

              If you’re talking about proverbs 8, then yeah i agree it’s not talking about Jesus. However the vast majority of trinitarians out there DO use Proverbs 8 in relation to Jesus.

              I know Robert doesn’t like Anthony Buzzard, and I certainly am not a follower of his faith, but I think Anthony’s advice is spot on when he says ‘start with Matthew and Luke and then proceed to John and Paul’s writings’. Trinitarians jump straight in head first to John when they are trying to prove ‘Jesus is God’ and they get their hands on a few verses and then read said doctrine back into Matthew and Luke.

              A typical example of Trinitarians misusing John’s gospel in proving Jesus is God is quoting John 20:28. And I know this is how trinitarians get taught when they first come to the bible. They get shown a bunch of verses, all out of context, and there it is the trinity – or at the very least that Jesus is God. And on the surface, yeah if you just look at John 20:28, it looks like Jesus is God. But the bible wasn’t supposed to be interpreted with verses in isolation. You cannot understand John 20:28 without understanding John 1. Especially John 1:18. And we see hints throughout the book of John, that even Jesus disciples are struggling to fully understand what Jesus was revealing to them. John 12:44-45, John 14: 6-11. Even John’s own conclusion in John 20:30-31, he writes these things so that you may believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of the Father…notice he doesn’t say so that you may believe Jesus is God etc. And this is without looking into the granville sharp rule (a greek thing) that completely refutes Jesus being identified as God in John 20:28!

              Start again. Put down that doctrine and read Matthew and Luke again. Get your foundation in those gospels instead of John and Paul’s writings. They can come later.

            • Brian

              Why would you think that Proverbs 8 is not describing Jesus or Jesus pre human existence as being the wisdom when it was created as it states, “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago”.

            • Merton

              I really don’t want to get into this. I only want to defend JWs belief that God is one person, the Father. I love how passionate they are about this belief. It is true that I do not believe Jesus had a pre-existence before his time on earth, and this is of course in contrast to the JW faith. As this is Robert’s site, and not really some open forum, I think it’s important to respect that some of us have different views on things and not to get entangled in these issues. Like I said, I’m here to vehemently defend the JW and unitarian belief that Jehovah God is one person, and one person alone, the Father. And in this way, I think I can be of some use to the people on this site. Trinitarians can often throw curveballs and often resort to all kinds of crazy things and I would not want someone here to be stumbled or potentially confused by something that they posted.

              But i’ll answer your question this time. Wisdom is personified as a female. It is absurd to suppose that ‘The Son’ who is a male, is being personified as a female, even if it is in the spirit realm. It’s vital we have a jewish mind when approaching the scriptures, the Old Testament was written for Jews, it was written for their understanding – get a copy of the jewish study bible it has a commentary which is insightful. And speaking of ‘The Son’ , would you be able to provide scriptural proof that Jesus was called ‘The Son of God’ at any point before he came to the Earth? No new testament writer even attempts to make the link between Michael and Jesus. I would argue JWs are guilty of eisegesis regarding Proverbs 8, inserting Jesus in there when the text does not warrant it and the writer is explicitly talking about Wisdom. Hebrews 1:1-2 is a good verse, I wouldn’t say it’s a lock but is solid text suggesting that Jesus was not talking to the Jews back in the Old Testament – when Proverbs was written.

              You might respond with such verses as Colossians 1:16, John 1, Revelation 3:14. But I won’t respond to these out of respect for the site and it’s owner. All I can suggest is to continue reading the scriptures, make sure preconceptions are out of your mind, and really try to understand and take in what the writer intends you to get out of the text.

            • Brian

              I have read Proverbs 8 many times over and I can’t see how it can be referred to in the feminine, maybe I am missing something there.
              As far as Jesus pre existence, at John 8:58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Also at John 8:42
              Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I
              came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but
              that One sent me.
              These two scriptural references would certainly indicate a pre human existence.
              At Hebrews 1:2 “has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. Are you suggesting that the “system of things” only came into existence after Jesus earthly time?
              BTW, I am not a JW

            • Merton

              Read any other translation of Proverbs 8. Proverbs 1:20-21.

              Luke 7:35
              Matthew 11:19

              Regarding the other verses, i’m not going to go into them. But please, notice how so many of these are from John. It is very very dangerous to build your foundation on John, and read John’s stuff back into Matthew, Mark, Luke where you will find NOTHING to suggest a preexistence. John’s gospel is indeed very spiritual and it is so very different than the other gospels. I believe John is trying to show something very special, something very different: God manifestation. The Father manifesting himself in flesh. The revealing of God to men. The revealing of the Father to men.

              Your interpretation of John 8:42 may suggest a pre-existence on the surface, but it has problems when it comes to John 17:18. Just as Jesus was sent, the disciples are also sent. So if Jesus was sent from heaven to the earth, the disciples are also sent from heaven to the earth.

            • Brian

              In John 17:18, Jesus is not referring to the apostles as being sent forth from heaven as he himself has been, but being sent forth from that time on just as someone would commission someone today to be sent forth to do work.

            • Merton

              I agree completely with that assessment of the Disciple being sent, but I still think the phrase ‘God sent his Son’ means once Jesus was baptised, God sent his Son into the world, as opposed to sending his pre-existent Son from Heaven to Earth. And just as God sent his Son into the world, the Son also sends his disciples into the world.

              I’ve often wondered why this is such an important belief for JWs. From what I know it’s only the JWs and Arians who believe this, groups such as biblical unitarians, restoration church and Christadelphians reject Jesus’ pre-existence. Orthodox Jews would also reject the notion that the Messiah would pre-exist as a person/spirit before coming to the Earth.

              Just out of interest, let say you started to believe that Jesus didn’t pre-exist. What would you lose from your beliefs etc? What would be the big problem?

              If you want to continue discussion about this, I’d prefer to do it on Skype, or email. I really don’t think Robert’s forum is the place for this! After all, I would say we ‘one person one God’ people adhere to the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:28-30). Let’s stick to what we do have in common!

            • iscamer

              So, you just run by verse 5?

            • Merton

              Well again more issues for the trinitarian. Why doesn’t verse 5 say ‘Glorify me at you side with the glory I had with you BEFORE I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO THE EARTH.’ Why is it before the foundation of the world…If Jesus is God, why does he need to ask for this glory to be given him….remember Trinity doctrine says he’s 100% God, 100% man, so he’s just as much God as the Father is God, he doesn’t need to ask for anything back.

              Again, all of this is in John. Show me something from the book of Luke or Mark that shows Jesus is God. Did they just forget to mention this fact? If a trinitarian was writing the book of Luke, would they forget to plaster their doctrine over every page?

              Your not going to convert anybody on this website. Your time would be better spent ‘evangelising’ elsewhere. You should go and worship your God, and we’ll continue worshipping Jesus’ God (Ephesians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3, Colossians 1:3)

            • iscamer

              And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

            • iscamer

              Worhipping my God involves among other things telling all the gospel of jesus christ. This is not some barbershop argument about who was the better player, Aaron or Ruth, not a game of who is smarter or more scholarly, it about life with God eternally or not at all. Something of this magnitude deserves thoughtful discussion and reasoning. If you believe this discussion is not worthy of your time, I respect that and you can carry on. I would think you would give others the right to make their own choice.

            • iscamer

              I would agree with most of this. Merton, are you jewish?

            • iscamer

              I would be interested in your view of Philippians 3:5 -11

            • Merton

              I think you mean Philippians 2:5-11, right?

            • iscamer

              Yes, fat finger.

            • iscamer

              When the Pharisees heard Jesus call himself the Son of God and the Son of Man, what would be their interpretation of that and what was their reaction?

            • iscamer

              The problem here is, Merton, you sincerely believe Jesus was created and I sincerely believe he was not so it could be both of us read each certain scriptures in a naturally biased way. Perhaps we can look at scriptures that are more straight forward and would educate a non bible reader of the truth?

            • iscamer

              By the way, i would compliment you on your knowledge of the bible. Most people do not read it enough to argue their position one way or another. we definitely disagree on interpretation, but that is a start.

            • why this has to be explained to some people idk but just throwing it up here

              the 144,000 are also personified as a single bride.

              obviously the 144,000 have some wisdom.

              of course personifying wisdom doesn’t mean One has the feature quality of being a female.

              wisdom being personified as feminine is not for reason one must be a women to have that quality or because that is only a human female feature.

              stating someone has the quality of being wise such as Michael does not mean they are a human female anymore then “love” (which is also personified as feminine) means God is a women.

              obviously wisdom didnt write Proverb 8 an speak for itself. a man wrote it directed by God’s spirit.

              honest readers can realizes wisdom at Proverb 8 is God’s son speaking to the reader by personifying wisdom with the qualities he is.

              applying his personality, relationship with his father and us are explained by personifying wisdom as the (if feminine*) speaker to the reader so we can know better and understand him.
              (*personally i dont even see kabuki being applied there anyway)

            • iscamer

              Verses 1 to.12

            • Brian

              Still can’t see how you get a feminine gender reasoning here. Now if you read it as the creation of wisdom through the first born of all creation, yes then wisdom can be crying out to “men” like a “woman”

            • Brian

              “In the beginning” referenced in the scriptures would be for our reference of the beginning of the physical creation, Jesus being the first born of all creation would be literally the first of all creation, the first is obviously in the spirit realm as that is their domain, and therefore not part of the physical creation as we sort of know it.

      • Darren Wilks

        Hi Sharon, I don’t know if I understand your question completely. However, remember Jesus was born twice.. He was the first-born of all creation. Jehovah creating him .. from Himself. All other angels and all of creation was created with Jesus working with his father. They created everything together. Now.. he was also “the first born of many brothers”. Jehovah resurrected him after his earthly death as a new creation!! An immortal spirit being! Its so beautiful!

        • iscamer

          So Micheal the archangel was created by God, then was annihilated so God could create Jesus and then was murdered on the cross to again be recreated spirit Jesus who went backbto heaven to be Michael again?

          • Brian

            Why do you find it so hard to believe that Jehovah would take his very first born of
            all and offer “him” up as a sacrifice? He has another name now also
            if you are inclined to believe that revelation is talking about Jesus in his
            new heavenly appointment such as follows;
            Revelation 19:11-12 “I saw heaven opened, and look! A white horse. And the
            one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war
            in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and
            on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but
            he himself”, 1 Thessalonians 4:16
            “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call,
            with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in
            union with Christ will rise first.”
            Scripturally, there is only one archangel ever mentioned, do you not think it
            is a little odd that he is only mentioned in the “new testament” in
            the present in Revelation as the one warring with Satan. Rev 12:7
            Can you not see it as the same scenario played out by Abraham with Isaac?
            This scene is a foretelling of the creator putting his only begotten son up for
            a literal sacrifice for the purpose of restoring all things to him in the end.
            I know Abraham had Ishmael prior but it wasn’t with the promised woman, just as
            David was not the first born to carry the seed for Jesus future arrival.

            • iscamer

              If you are implying that Jesus is the archangel Michael, because of 1st Thessalonians 4:16, because it says he was announced “with an archangels voice” then this person must be God because it says he came with “God’s trumpet”. Hebrews clearly defines the difference between angels and Jesus. No where does the bible make the connection between them

            • Darren Wilks

              You’re letting inconsequential things stumble you. Jehovah gives his son a kingdom too.. why is it unreasonable he’s blowing God’s trumpet?

            • iscamer

              Why is it unreasonable to believe that Jesus isn’t the one calling? Why is it reasonable to believe that Michael is jesus when the connection is never made in scripture? Is this really all you have to make this claim? Please provide 5 scriptures that prove Micheal is Jesus..

            • Darren Wilks

              We’ll see Iscamer its a prophesy in Daniel and Revelation. Are you going to let these prophesies stumble you? Please do this:

              Chapter of James: 26 If any man seems to himself* to be a formal worshiper*+ and yet does not bridle his tongue,+ but goes on deceiving his own heart,+ this man’s form of worship is futile.+ 27 The form of worship* that is clean+ and undefiled+ from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans*+ and widows+ in their tribulation,+ and to keep oneself without spot+ from the world.+

            • Darren Wilks

              Do this and in 7th chapter of Matthew:

              7 “Keep on asking,+ and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking,+ and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives,+ and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. 9 Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son+ asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he? 10 Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish—he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11 Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked,+ know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things+ to those asking him?
              12 “All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU,+ YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.+

            • Merton

              I’m definitely with you on this one iscamer…however the JWs logic for believing Jesus is Michael is infact very similar to trinitarian’s own logic regarding ‘Jesus is God’ or the trinity as they are all NEVER explicitly stated in scripture.

              I mean you can see it right? You’re thinking ‘How can JWs believe Jesus is Michael when there is no clear reference in scripture?? No writer attempts to make the connection or explain this to the readers…’

              Now ask yourself the exact same question replacing a few words

              How can I believe God is a Trinity when there is no clear reference in scripture?? No writer attempts to make the connection or explain this to the readers…’

              (Note to others, please do not reply to me about how Jesus is Michael or Jesus pre-existed, I appreciate and respect your beliefs but this comment is for iscamer and iscamer alone)

            • iscamer

              Because, if he is not the Son of God, who is He? In the book Mark he is called the Son of God to the blasphemous chagrin of the High Priest (Mark 14)7 and the Son of Man a reference to Daniel 7. Jesus also claims to be seated at the Right Hand of Power. All these references bring cries of blasphemy from the bible scholars of that day – The Pharisees

            • iscamer

              In Mark, Jesus defeats Satan and has power over angels. Nowhere in the OT has any angel contended with Satan. Mark uses the term Lord for Jesus which according to Josephus was reserved for God as the early believers refused to call The Emperor Lord. Jesus also exhibited the ability to forgive sins, This is a work only God can do. His miracles were a great testimony to his status.

            • iscamer

              Hebrews clears up the issue whether he is an angel.John speaks all about his deity. Romans is full of assertions that Jesus is YHWH. Philippians, corithians…it is everywhere. Either Jesus was a lunatic or He is the Son of God.

              John 5:19 (KJB)

              Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise

            • Darren Wilks

              What exactly brought you here iscamer? How did you find this site? Did you search to antagonize the 2% of Christians that don’t believe that Christ is is God? Its interesting I’ve searched that before.. and approximately 98% of Christians believe in the Trinity in some fashion. Now who is on the broad road leading off into destruction? Think about it.

            • e.v.g

              My advice to you is, take a bible study with Jehovah’s witnessess of your local area or instead just relax, maistro.

            • Darren Wilks

              What exactly brought you here iscammer? How did you find this site? Did
              you search to antagonize the 2% of Christians that don’t believe that
              Christ is is God? Its interesting I’ve searched that before.. and
              approximately 98% of Christians believe in the Trinity in some fashion.
              Now who is on the broad road leading off into destruction? Think about
              it.

            • Merton

              Man, there are so many false premises here.

              Sarah called Abraham ‘Lord’. (Genesis 18, 1 Peter 3)

              The two angels are called ‘Lords’ by Lot (Genesis 19)

              The Jail guard calls Paul and Silas ‘Lord’ (Acts 16:31)

              God MADE Jesus, ‘Lord’ when he resurrected him from the dead (Acts 2:36)

              This is quite hilarious actually. If ‘Lord’ is infact another word for God then please observe some of these passages…

              the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:3).

              the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3).

              the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Col 1:3).

              the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:3).

              Apparently then, when trinitarians read this, what they see is

              the God and Father of our God Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:3).

              the God and Father of our GodJesus Christ (Eph 1:3).

              the God and Father of our God Jesus Christ (Col 1:3).

              the God and Father of our God Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:3).

              If indeed the word ‘Lord’ was a way of referring to one as God, the Trinitarian creates a situation where God has a God. Insanity.

            • iscamer

              So you believe Philippians 2:10,11 to mean Jesus is Sir?
              The greek word kurios does have many usages but was used in the place of YHWH.in the NT. In Colossians 3:23 the word is used twice: Slaves, obey your earthly masters {kurios] in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord [kurios] (Colossians 3:23).

            • Merton

              According to Jesus, forgiving sins was an easier thing to do than do miracles (you’ll see why this is important later) in Matthew 9 and Mark 2

              Please read Matthew 9:8. God gave the ability to forgive sins to MEN. not a man. Also if Jesus was God, he doesn’t need this to be given to him from the Father. Remember Trinitarians say Jesus assumed humanity, he didn’t leave any of his God bit behind. 100% man, 100% God.

              The disciples are apparently authorised to forgive sins too. John 20:23. Can we include them as part of the Godhead too?

              Now onto the miracles part. So performing miracles means you are part of the Godhead eh? Oh dear…

              John 14:12 – not only do the disciple do miracles, but they do GREATER miracles than Jesus.

              Peter and Paul (I think Paul did anyway) raised people from the dead. If the disciples etc can do miracles, then they can most certainly forgive sins as it is a lesser work. Having the authority to do miracles means you also have the authority to forgive sins.

              Besides when Jesus did the miracles it was the Father at work in him. ‘These works I do are not mine, but my Father’s”. The Father is the source of all the miracles. (John 14:10, Acts 2:2, Acts 10:38….there’s more but not of top of my head)

              You are an antichrist. You are preaching a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible. Can’t you go and evangelise some muslims or Jews or something? I think Jesus said something about wiping the dust from your feet when a city does not receive you in Matthew 10. Take his advice. Move on to the next city.

            • iscamer

              Do you speak for the whole tribe? You are not a JW so why are you here?

              Your understanding of the bible is poor as you do not have the Holy Spirit to guide you.

            • Ed(the other Ed)

              LOL! @ iscamer. Sounds like your running out of ammunition bud. Reload and cock but put your safety on okay? Your three headed god would want it either way. Hmmm…..or would he….

            • Brian

              This is interesting. Just a few short days ago you were praising “Merton” for his biblical knowledge! Go figure hey!

            • iscamer

              Many have bibilical knowledge but not the wisdom to interpret correctly. I appreciate that most of the people on this board at least take the time to read the bible which is really lacking in this culture today. If more read and asked the holy spirit to guide, America would be a much different place.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              @ iscamer
              Have you seen a man who thinks he is wise?,
              There is more hope for someone stupid than for him. Proverbs 26:12.

              The way of the fool is right in his own eyes. Proverbs 12:15.

              Let no one deceive himself: If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, so that he may become wise.1 Corinthians 3:18
              .

            • Brian

              I don’t believe it is Gods purpose via the Holy Spirit to guide mankind en-mass to make America or any other country or nation a “better” or much different place. Granted, if all people were to truly love their neighbour as themselves the world would certainly be a better place, given the fact that Satan is the ruler of this world it is not going to happen anytime soon under man’s direction”.
              Jeremiah; “I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him.
              It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
              Psalm; “Do not put your trust in Noble men
              Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.”
              True the bible may not be getting read and put into practice as much as it sort of was, but this must be the way it happens for “the love of the greater number to cool off.”

            • iscamer

              I agree no changes will be accomplished by men, but god is in control and we are commanded to share the good news to all the world, making disciples and baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit.

            • e.v.g

              Ha Ha!!…..some mental gaps are doing their own thing.

            • Merton

              Trinitarians do typically speak out of both sides of their mouth. For instance JWs and Trinitarians fight to the death on whether Jesus was an angel before the incarnation. JWs say he was an angel, Trinitarians do not.

              But when it comes to ‘the angel of the Lord’ in Exodus 3 and other places, Trinitarians typically claim that this angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Son speaking to Moses. And because they hold the view that Jesus was not an angel before the incarnation, they are forced to say that the ‘angel of the Lord’ is in fact not an angel, but they claim it is God (the Son)

              So they claim The angel of the Lord is not an angel. But let me translate that a little better. The Messenger of Yahweh is not a Messenger. The Messenger of Yahweh is Yahweh. This just isn’t right.

              And this doublespeak is not just limited to this. Jesus has a God, Jesus doesn’t have a God. Jesus was dead, Jesus wasn’t dead. Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge, Jesus was all-knowing (did not grow in wisdom and knowledge). The Father is greater than Jesus, the Father is not greater than Jesus but is equal.

              One thing that I always have to remind myself is, is that trinitarians are sincere. They do believe they are trying to help you. But the problem is is that they do not realise they have been deceived. Nearly all bible translations out there have been done by trinitarians. The chapter and verse divisions were not in the original scriptures but they were inserted by trinitarians. So a quick rule of thumb (doesn’t always work) but always make sure you read the verse before and after when a trinitarian brings up a verse in order to get context.

              Never forget that a trinitarian’s golden rule is that upholding the Trinity Doctrine is more important than bible truth. They won’t admit this of course, even though it is fact. Take for instance the false claim that ‘Jesus miracles prove he is God’. Well this is instantly proved false because Jesus’ disciples also did miracles (well technically it can still be true but it would involve incorporating the disciples into the Godhead) So, even if the Trinity happened to be true (because of some other text etc), the trinitarian still made a false claim and gave a false teaching which means he/she is a false teacher.

              Notice how many times Iscamer has replied ‘you know what Merton, I had that wrong. What I said infact doesn’t prove Jesus is God. I won’t use that again as a prooftext because I don’t want to spread lies and be a false teacher. But hey I have another text that shows Jesus is God/Trinity is true…’ That’s right, zero times. Because it is in conflict with the 1st Trinitarian commandment:

              ‘Uphold the trinity doctrine even in the face of bible truth – any attempt at using scripture to prove the trinity, even if it may involves lies about scripture, is acceptable. aka let us do evil that good may abound.’

            • Darren Wilks

              Boom! (Dropped the mic)

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Just let your word ‘Yes’ mean yes, your ‘No,’ no, for what goes beyond these is from the wicked one Matthew 5:37.

              iscamer said to Merton • 8 days ago
              By the way, i would compliment you on your knowledge of the bible.

              iscamer then said to Merton • 14 hours ago Your understanding of the bible is poor as you do not have the Holy Spirit to guide you.
              It’s obvious to me that iscamer is double tongued.

              The mouth of the stupid is his ruin, And his lips are a snare for his life.
              Proverbs 18:7.
              So, too, the tongue is a small part of the body, with it we praise Jehovah, the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence “in the likeness of God.” Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing.

              My brothers, it is not right for things to happen this way
              A spring does not cause the fresh water and the bitter water to bubble out of the same opening, does it?. James 3: 9-10-11.

            • iscamer

              Do you not understand the difference between knowledge and wisdom?

            • iscamer

              “Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
              4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home.
              8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.”

              Jesus is clearly teaching the Pharisees that despite their protests of blasphemy, he can forgive sins because he can do miracles, what is easier to say, I forgive your sins or get up and walk? For human eyes we cant verify the forgiveness but the miracle can be seen

            • iscamer

              Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
              4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home.
              8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.”

              Jesus is explaining to the protesting Pharisees that he does have the power tp forgive sins, despite their allegations of blasphemy(again Jesus is accused of acting as if he is at the same level as God and doesn’t deny it) Saying I can forgive sin is eadier to say than doing a miracle in the sense that as human can only verify the miracle with their own eyes, not the forgiveness of sin. Jesus maintains they should believe it if only because he can prove the miracles.

            • wrong. Jesus admited he was a man not God. obviously not the same level. who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.” God doesnt need to give authority to himself for the fact he is the authority.

            • Brian

              There is this no other archangel, you decide. So you are now implying that the archangel is God?

          • Darren Wilks

            You are very fortunate to have found this site. Please pray Iscamer: Proverbs chapter 2 says: if, moreover, you call out for understanding+ itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself,+ 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver,+ and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it,+ 5 in that case you will understand the fear+ of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God.*+ 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom;+ out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment.+

            • Darren Wilks

              I can give you the answer you’re looking for… but something tells me you need approach this matter in humble prayer. Welcome to this site also!

            • iscamer

              Thanks!

          • Darren Wilks

            Do you think Jehovah is unrighteous? That he would annihilate a faithful creation of his?

            • iscamer

              No, but comments lead me to believe this is a JW position. If Jesus was Michael the archangel he had to be annihilated to be Jesus the man and annihilated again since you say he died a man but was resurrected as spirit. Just trying to make sure I got this right. Now he was recreated back to Michael, right?

            • Darren Wilks

              Please pray to YHWH.. I pronouce it sometimes as Yahoweh in Yehoshua’s name with an honest heart. And ask for an interpretation of Daniel 12:1 and then read Revelation 12:17. Be humble before your God. Don’t be stumbled about inconsequential things.

            • Darren Wilks

              Personally, I believe He hear’s all of us calling out in his name .. no matter how its pronounced. He’s searching our heat’s and that is what matters to him. There are so few of us on earth that call upon his name.. He will draw close to you if you do. Amen

          • Bklyn Kevin

            MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, THE GREAT PRINCE. Michael the archangel is featured in the Bible as the chief angel; the leader of all of heaven’s angels. He is also revealed to be the leader of God’s people – both before Christ and after. He is portrayed in the Bible as the savior of Christians during the tribulation and the vanquisher of Satan, the serpent. In short, Michael is shown to possess all authority in heaven and on earth – the same as Jesus Christ.
            Read more>https://e-watchman.com/jesus-michael-the-archangel/

            JESUS CHRIST – THE PRINCE OF PRINCES.

            The first mention of Michael is in the 10th chapter of Daniel, where he is described as merely one of the foremost heavenly princes, but who is standing in behalf of Daniel’s people as a protector and advocate. For the reason he is described as merely one of many princes and not the preeminent prince, as would seem to be the meaning of archangel, for this reason some have hastily jumped to the conclusion that this could not possibly be Jesus Christ. However, in the concluding words of the prophecy in the eighth chapter of Daniel the last human king stands up and challenges one who is entitled “the Prince of princes.”

            It should be noted that Daniel is a series of interconnected prophecies that are intended to reveal the developments in the world that lead up to Jesus Christ securing his kingdom. And all the prophecies in Daniel conclude with Christ destroying God’s earthly enemies. For example, the second chapter reveals that God will set up a kingdom that will crush all earthly kingdoms and will rule forever. The seventh chapter relates how someone like a Son of man gains access to the Ancient of days and rulership and dignity are conferred upon him. There can be no question as to the identity of the Son of man – he being Jesus Christ. So, the Prince of princes must be the same as the Son of man.

            The Prince of princes denotes the preeminent prince, does it not? A prince, of course, is the son of a king. Jesus also bears the titles of King of kings and Lord of lords. However, he does not bear the title of the God of gods. That designation is exclusively reserved for Jehovah God.
            .
            Read more>https://e-watchman.com/jesus-michael-the-archangel-2/

            • come lord Abaddon!
              come lord Apollyon! 🙂

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Excerpt from Is, Jesus really the star that falls from heaven? https://e-watchman.com/is-jesus-really-the-star-that-falls-from-heaven/

              The remaining ones of Jacob” is the same as the remaining ones referred to in the last verse of the 12th chapter of Revelation —the anointed remnant as they used to be called. Notice the similarity of the symbolism, in that, the locusts from the abyss are said to have the teeth of lions. Also, the end of the matter is that the enemies of God will be destroyed. Isn’t that the work of the Destroyer —also known by his Hebrew and Greek names of Abaddon and Apollyon? When the Kingdom becomes fully operational it will have the unique distinction of having some of its kings, the majority, in heaven while the remaining ones are on earth, although at that time fully accepted into the Kingdom of their Father. So, it may well be that all of the 144,000 are symbolized as being released from the abyss. Whatever the case, those holy ones on earth during the reign of the last king will be impelled by Christ to announce the coming destruction. And their deaths —implied by the short-lived locusts army of five months —will result in their instantaneous transformation into literal destroyers, like their King —the angel of the abyss —The Destroyer.

          • Bklyn Kevin
        • ya could say three times eh

          • Darren Wilks

            Actually yes.. born of the virgin Mary! Good point!.. Interesting that anything that happens three times in the bible would be something “firmly established”. Perhaps there’s something to that .. showing that Jesus is a born creation.

            • ha, yeah thats kool; firmly established

      • Darren Wilks

        This is a good question! I’m sorry I didn’t see it till now! I will research, but maybe other brothers and sisters here have knowledge on this topic.

      • Ignorant pompous fool

        Hi Sharon, i’m not a scholar, so don’t quote me on it but I will try to answer your question the best I can. Trinitarians claim the all three persons who make up the truine godhead are all co equal and co eternal, so all three persons are uncreated according to their beliefs. So if jesus is called the firstborn of creation in Colossians 1:15 and according to their own beliefs, this would also make Jehovah and the Holy spirit firstborn as well. But not once in the entire bible are the holy spirit or jehovah called firstborn. They then claim that firstborn here means most prominent, okay now apply those words to the Holy spirit or Jehovah. Jehovah is the firstborn his the most prominent, the holy spirit is the firstborn his the most prominent, does that make sense too you? Being born is always in relation to being born into a group, for example the first born of israel is the actual firstborn son of israel, who can you compare jehovah too, to say that jehovah is the most prominent? Jehovah has no equal or peers he alone is almighty god btw jesus takes on the title of el gibbor meaning mighty god, only Jehovah is called el shaddai meaning almighty god, if jesus is co equal with Jehovah, why isn’ t jesus ever called el shaddai. Romans 8:29 says that jesus is the first born of many brothers, can the almightly god jehovah have any brothers? Sometimes in the old testament one who was not really firstborn recieved the title of being first born, so they then try to apply that to Jesus. Ishmael was born before Isaac but the bible lists Isaac first, but regardless both of them were born with a beginning, what firstborn means in this instance was that Isaac was more favoured in Jehovahs eye, but nonetheless they were both born. I hope that makes sense.

  • iscamer

    The Him, is all three. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He” Jesus is a “He” and so is the Father. Also, they are in perfect harmony as the bible says, so it doesnt matter. Who spoke to Adam in the Garden?

    • Merton

      erm, singular third person pronouns, such as he/him/his are used for 1 person. Plural third person pronouns, such as they/them are used for multiple persons.

      Anyway, I finally got an answer out of you. It’s not all three otherwise you’d be calling Jesus and Peter a liar.

      Luke 24:49
      Acts 1:4-5
      Acts 2:33

      At Pentecost, Peter said the prophecy of Joel had been fulfilled. In Joel, God had promised to pour out his Spirit. (Acts 2:16-17)

      This shows that the outpouring of the spirit was promised by THE FATHER through the prophet Joel.

      So it is God the Father who declared that he alone is God of Israel, and there is NOBODY ELSE but him. Do you believe the Father? Do you believe God?

      There are other examples I can show you, but they are all along the same lines as this. There will be an Old Testament passage where God says only he is God, Trinitarians will say it is all three speaking (why not use a plural pronoun then?) and we can show it is only the Father speaking therefore only the Father is God.

      • iscamer

        Numbers 12:6 -8 who showed himself to Moses, The Father?

        • Merton

          The Father never showed himself to Moses. No man can see God and live. Angels of God deliver God’s message. To receive information from an Angel of God is to receive God’s message. To speak to a representative of God is to speak to God himself.

          Who are you claiming this is, Jesus?

          • iscamer

            So the person speaking in Joel wasn’t God but just a representative? Who was the representative in the Garden?

            • Merton

              God (The Father) sends his messengers to repeat his message. I dunno why this is hard to understand.

              As always with trinitarians, this is descending into very unfruitful discussion. Stop approaching scripture with the greek mindset. Pick up a jewish study bible. See what the orthodox Jews say regarding their own bible. Go check out Tovia Singer on youtube.

              Greek mindset goes something like this:

              God is called first and last, Jesus is called first and last therefore Jesus is God.

              The serpent is called Satan, Peter is called Satan, therefore the original serpent in the garden was in fact Peter.

              God is called Lord, Jesus is called Lord, therefore Jesus is God.

              Like i said, you’re not going to get anywhere with this greek mindset.

            • iscamer

              Peter wasnt called Satan, Satan was called Satan. The NT was written in Greek, so there is a mindset thzt is Greek in the interpretation. If you really believe calling a man the same name and in effect saying he had the same wutiez as God is the same as Jesus rebuking the devil, you have no idea of the jewish mindset.

            • iscamer

              Additionaly the Jews of the day, scribes and Pharisees knew exactly what Jesus said and accused him of blasphemy many times. Not once did Jesus say, oh, I didnt mean to say that or imply that the Father and I are in perfect harmony. Whether you choose to believe it is true does not affect what Jesus actually said and how it was received.

            • Darren Wilks

              Iscamer, I don’t know exactly how you found this site. But I’m sure of it that Jehovah drew you to it. Read everything.. as you see the things unfold .. you will gain faith. Don’t harden your heart please. Humble yourself before our God.

            • iscamer

              There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.…

              For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.…

            • Darren Wilks

              The eye cannot see the eye.

            • Darren Wilks

              Don’t be upset.. Do you know what unity means? Have you ever been a leader? Unity is necessary in any organization that will succeed. A house divided amongst itself will fall. Please pray for discernment and understanding as in Proverbs chapter 2

            • Darren Wilks

              What exactly brought you here Iscamer? How did you find this site? Did
              you search to antagonize the 2% of Christians that don’t believe that
              Christ is is God? Its interesting I’ve searched that before.. and
              approximately 98% of Christians believe in the Trinity in some fashion.
              Now who is on the broad road leading off into destruction? Think about
              it.

            • iscamer

              I didnt realize I was antagonizing you. Not my goal. I would think followers of Christ would be like minded. You are a follower of Jehovah, so I wonder why you associate yourself as Christian?

            • Darren Wilks

              Because I love Jesus for staying faithful to Jehovah even to death. He revealed his Father to us and provided the perfect example since he learned everything from Jehovah.. Jehovah found this sacrifice acceptable to buy us back to Him. I imitate Jesus and worship Jehovah just like he did.

            • Merton

              Christ himself was a follower of Jehovah, as Christ was human, he is an easier example to follow for us than Jehovah himself. Christ even said the only way to the Father is by following/through the Son.

              Another issue for trinitarians coming up. Christ had a God, namely the Father. The Father was his and only God. Are you being Christian (literally ‘Christlike’) when you choose to worship a different God than Christ did? I don’t think so. We worship the same God as Christ did. Therefore we are by very definition more Christian than you could ever be because we try to follow the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy 6:4), and you do not.

            • (sarcasm) isnt that the scripture Jesus referred to saying you must love yourself?

            • iscamer

              For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God,” (John 5:18).

            • ewatchman

              Jesus did not say he was equal to God. His accusers falsely claimed he made himself God’s equal. Jesus never made the claim. In fact, he said the opposite. He said the Father is greater than I am. Trinitarians betray themselves as having the same spirit as the Jews who opposed Christ because they take the accusations the Jews made against Jesus as if they were true.

            • iscamer

              Disagree, the point is the Pharisees ,learned scholars of the torah ,knew what Jesus was saying. If they were incorrect, he would have admonished them. He didn’t.

            • e.v.g

              Yes he did:
              Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
              You’re twisting the scriptures, you need to broke the chains of falsehood.
              And you should continue to be made new in your dominant mental attitude. (Ephesians 4:23)
              Just drop the old personality.

            • thx for sharing that scripture e.v.g

            • Bklyn Kevin

              42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here.

              { I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.}

              43 Why do you not understand what I am saying?

              Because you cannot listen to my word.

              44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie
              47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

            • iscamer

              If you read my comment you would have noticed I said He never admonished them for thinking He was on the same level as God. He did admonish them for many things including not believing He was the Son of God, The Son Of Man, The I Am.

            • Merton

              Well, they both agree at Mark 12:28-33. And remember, a correct interpretation of these commandments results in ‘not being far from the kingdom of God’. Since trinitarians get the first and most important commandment wrong, well the text speaks for itself…

            • Merton

              Funny isn’t it the way trinitarians are actually in bed with the Pharisees and scribes? Jesus actually says they don’t understand him, they are from their Father the Devil, not from God.

            • Merton

              Just like when the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath!! Another false claim by the Jews.

            • iscamer

              Then why did Jesus not correct them. Not once did he say, “oh, I am sorry, I didn’t really mean that.” And by the way, As a Human, the Father was greater than Jesus. No question.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during the Sabbath.
              17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”
              18 This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God

              Jesus admonished the Pharisees by retorting their accusations.
              19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing “of his own initiative”, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.

            • Merton

              Exactly. Jesus does rebuke the pharisees. The Son cannot do a single thing on his own, he does only what the Father does. But trinitarians only want to see things that promote their doctrine. I’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again, defending their doctinre/creed is more important than bible truth to them.

            • iscamer

              Do you not understand what these verses are saying and how they would be interpreted by the jew of that day? You are bringing up verses that prove that Jesus claimed to be on the same level as the Father.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You truly are Satan’s manipulated seed twisting the scriptures like you do in order to try and support your Trinitarian believes, all you guys are the same! You isolate one scripture and ignore the whole context, at this point the only thing I can say to you is that Satan is your master and you are his slave and when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire you can rest assured that his offspring / seed will be thrown in with him , other than that I have nothing more to say to you unless you repent and seek Jehovah why he still may be found.
              Revelation 19:17-20.

            • Song of Hannah

              I am glad you are going to stop Kevin. The problem is, Trinitarians do not understand what they are missing. I know, because I used to be one. But I was desperately motivated to get to know God, and that opened me up to consider scripture without that belief. It was a huge epiphany for me. Not only because the scriptures all started to finally make sense, but that I began to “see” Jehovah for the first time. Kinda like a person who has never seen in color, only in black & white. But if you already believe black & white is the best thing ever, how will you ever be motivated to want to see in color?

            • iscamer

              I just replied to your scripture references. I totally believe in context as well. Not sure why you have to call me names, but your choice.

            • Bklyn Kevin
            • iscamer

              In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

            • iscamer

              For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:27)

              At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

              So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. (Mark 13:24-27)

              At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Luke 21:27

            • iscamer

              The high priest said to him, ‘I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.’ ‘Yes, it is as you say,’ Jesus replied. ‘But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, ‘He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?’ ‘He is worthy of death,’ they answered. (Matthew 26:63-66

            • iscamer

              No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

              What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! (John 6:62)

            • iscamer

              A lot more people in this world believe the way you do. The far majority. So who is on the broad road?

    • Darren Wilks

      The elect in Revelation have 2 names written on their forehead. Do you know what those names are? Why not 3 names?

      • iscamer

        The name of the Father and The Son. Why should there be 3 names?

        • Darren Wilks

          There shouldn’t.. exactly. Ponder that as you equate Holy Spirit to being a god head.

          • iscamer

            The preponderance of scripture points to the Holy Spirit being a person of God.

            • Darren Wilks

              I think I’m done iscamer.. How did you find this website? What brought you here? Did you pray to know God better? Did you find it by accident?

            • Darren Wilks

              I think I’m done I scamer.. How did you find this website? What brought
              you here? Did you pray to know God better? Did you find it by
              accident?

    • Merton

      Three Hims = One They. The One True God is never described as a They. The only time god is ‘They’ (or plural) is when it’s talking about false gods (think about that for a second). If the One True God were a ‘They’ instead of a ‘Him’ we’d see it in scripture. Yet there is no attempt by any writer to do this.

      Trap is set.

      • iscamer

        The bible is all about the God’s grace and love shown by the 3 persons of God. They created us, the Father draws us to the Son, The Son saved us, The Holy Spirit helps us.

  • iscamer

    At Jesus’ bsptism, When the Father said this is My Son and I am well.pleased, the Son and the Holy Spirit were present yet in perfect harmony.

  • Rose Castro

    Ok, comments are being deleted either automatically or otherwise. If they have differing ideas, people should be able to speak freely. Of course, always respectfully.

    • Sam

      it’s Disqus, it’s been doing that lately lol

      • Rose Castro

        Oh!

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    Well If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same as Trinitians believe, then why would Jesus gives the kingdom back to his father as stated in 1st Corinth:15:24: Next, the end, when he hands over the
    Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government
    and all authority and power. If Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same, then how it will be possible for Jesus himself will subject to his father if they are one and the same. Read 1st Corinth:15:28 But
    when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also
    subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all
    things to everyone. Is Jesus subjecting to himself? If you still believe that they are one and the same even an Hindu (already some Muslims) will Ridicule if he reads1st Corinth:15:28

    • iscamer

      Jesus and the Father are distinct persons of the same essence. Once all his enemies are vanquished, there will be no need for a mediator, ,and the father, son and holy spirit , the God Head may fully reside in us and us in them.

      • Darren Wilks

        Of course Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence. They are all from the Source of Jehovah! Open your eyes and see!

        • iscamer

          I agree.

      • Merton

        Another false premise from Trinitarians. They think sharing the same essence makes them part of the one Godhead. Distinct persons (WHOs) same essence (WHAT), 3 persons (WHOs) 1 nature/essence (WHAT)

        There are two very easy methods to refute this.

        1. The believers are also partakers of the divine nature/essence. (Hebrews 6:4, 2 Peter 1:4). So from this there are two possible conclusions: (a) the believers are also part of the godhead or (b) the premise that sharing the divine nature makes you part of the godhead is false. Trinitarians will not admit either (a) or (b) because as already explained, maintaining and defending their doctrine is more important than bible truth.

        2. Me and Adam are distinct persons. Me and Adam both share the same essence/nature…we are both adam or human (adam is hebrew for human). However just because I share the same nature as Adam, it does not mean that I am Adam or that I can claim to be Adam. All I can claim is that I am adam/human. Sharing the same nature as somebody (me and Adam are both human/adam) does not mean you share the same identity as somebody (I am not Adam).

        Please note the use of capital letters in point 2. Adam/adam are different. Adam is a name, an identity, a WHO. adam is an adjective, and is not a WHO. Point 2 is another example of trinitarian word games. Written down, we can see what’s going on. However imagine someone saying that in a conversation. How do you distinguish between Adam/adam?? They have different definitions yet because the same word is used/heard it is not clear what definition the speaker is implying. And this is exactly the routine trinitarians use regarding this essence/nature thing. In 2. trinitarians replace Adam with the Father (or God), Me/I with Jesus but they also replace adam with God (capital G God when they really mean lower case g god, God = identity, god = adjective (divine etc)).

        Hope this helps!

        • iscamer

          I will comment on this more later, but the divine nature and bring of the same essence are not the same thing. Second, uour analogy of Adam and me are actually good to a point. While nothing comes close to replicating the triune nature of God, there are only 3 classifications of intelligent beings that we know of; God, Angels and Man. Adam and I are of the same nature , the human nature, sinful , and essence to the extent I have a body, soul and life giving spirit from God. To this extent, Adam and I are an equivalent picture of Jesus and the Father. Differnce is the persons of God are in perfect harmony. Adam and I are not, unless you contend we are in perfect sinful harmony.

        • also all you can say is that you came after and from Adam.

          who’s on first?
          no, Who’s on second.

  • Vanessa

    I don’t understand how this still a question. This is all too simple. I was born and raised Catholic. I lover reading but my family was very poor and couldn’t afford to buy me many books. My grandmother had a bible and so I began to read it. I was about 12 years old. Despite being a Catholic since birth the teachings hadn’t shaped me fully. So I as I read it came across this passage Proverbs 8:22-31Darby Translation (DARBY)

    22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
    23 I was set up from eternity, from the beginning, before the earth was.
    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water.
    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth;
    26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
    27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he ordained the circle upon the face of the deep;
    28 when he established the skies above, when the fountains of the deep became strong;
    29 when he imposed on the sea his decree that the waters should not pass his commandment, when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
    30 then I was by him [his] nursling, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
    31 rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights [were] with the sons of men.
    I immediately told my mother we had been worshipping the wrong person. Of course I got nonsense in return. But I continuedon’t my journey with the bible it was clear that Jesus was not God. And so I began to despise the Catholic Church and it’s teaching….anyhow. I think it was easy for me to see for two reasons: I wanted to know God and not just go to church etc. Secondly I wasn’t trying to reassure any beliefs or defend any beliefs. I was open minded because children don’t take sides, and thus that’s why the truth was easy. Those who deny the truth do so because they are already not defense of what they were taught not opening their mind to the truth. Believe what you will but the truth is the truth. I never met a Jehovah’s Witness and the bible I had was king James Bible so I Couldn’t possibly had been “indoctrinated” anything. In fact it was until I was 22 that I personally went to a kingdom hall and began my journey as a Jehovah’sWitness because only they knew the truth and I longed for such a place. Proudly a Jehovah’s Witness.

    • Song of Hannah

      Really appreciated your experience, thanks for sharing.

      • Vanessa

        =) I’m just very happy to have found the true God and a great and wonderful spiritual family.

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Hearing Your experience is so very encouraging , thank you so much for sharing, It really made my day!. PS welcome to the site and may Jehovah continue to fill your life with many more blessings.

      • Vanessa

        Thank you so much. As long as I keep His commandments I know He will. I am so happy everyday of my life because He was so merciful to me and lead me to Him so that I could know the truth.

  • if Jesus was God then he created himself before he existed then asked himself to go to earth and to save mankind. then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself. he prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly. he strengthened himself and talked to himself. finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his loyalty to himself. while dead he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself. he will sit by his own right hand until the end when he hands over the Kingdom back to himself as his own father. for reason he subjected all things under himself. but when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is somehow made evident that this does not include himself who subjected all things to himself but when all things will have been subjected to himself, then he himself will also subject himself to the himself who subjected all things to himself, that he may at that time invite Luke Skywalker and Godzilla over for tea himself

    • Bklyn Kevin

      The Trinitarians would have us believe that Jehovah Is narcissistic, “utterly ridiculous” when in fact that just how Satan Is……

      Ezekiel 28:
      13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.You were adorned with every precious stone—Ruby, topaz, and jasper;chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;And their settings and mountings were made of gold.They were prepared on the day you were created.

      14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

      15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were createdUntil unrighteousness was found in you.

      16 Because of your abundant trade,+You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.

      17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.

    • Vanessa

      This comment made my day lol

      • sadly thats the dogma trinitarians are expected to believe. their brain would thank them if they actually tried questioning it.

        i hoped to make someone laugh because Jehovah is a “happy God” and this world and future coming is doom and gloom. that doom and gloom is a topic we here talk about and it must be discussed but knowing Jehovah is a happy God and knowing his Son set the example as he was imitating our father, we are oblagated to be like Jehovah,- happy. of course that can be and will be hard to do so it is necessary we even work on being happy as we are also told to be serious. Titus 2:7

        so you all better be happy, seriously o_0

        • Vanessa

          True. It’s amazing how people just love being mislead. I suppose that truth is to easy and so they rather believe in more complicated nonsense ideals.
          We just have to keep trying to warn those whose hearts are seeking Jehovah.

    • Beverly kenyon

      You smashed it with that reply to scammer. Genius! Will be using that when I engage with my neighbours trinitarian friend. Intelligent lady but…….

    • Bklyn Kevin

      The Trinitarians would have us believe that Jehovah Is narcissistic, “utterly ridiculous” when in fact that’s just how Satan Is……
      Ezekiel 28:

      13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.You were adorned with every precious stone—Ruby, topaz, and jasper;chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;And their settings and mountings were made of gold.They were prepared on the day you were created.
      14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
      15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
      16 Because of your abundant trade,You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
      17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
      You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor

      .Isaiah
      14:13. You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens.
      Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne,
      And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting,
      In the remotest parts of the north
      14 I will go up above the tops of the clouds;
      I will make myself resemble the Most High.’.

    • Dude, that was mind twisting awesome, bravo bravo -brilliant.

  • Rai Miranda

    Scripturally speaking, the simple truth is this. The only thing that differentiates Jesus and the Angels (although both are called sons of GOD in Job and in John) was that, unlike The Angels, Jesus was begotten (John 1:18) NOT made. For to which of the angels did GOD ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? (Hebrews 1:5) Just as your own biological son shares your DNA, so is Jesus, or, in Hebrew YAHoshua, who is “the exact expression of His substance” (transliterated from the Greek) “the character (χαρακτηρ) of His substance (lit. underlying). That is why He was able to tell Philip, “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Fathe.” (John 14:7) and “I and The Father are One” (John 10:30) “because in Him (Yeshua) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead (ELOHOTH in the Brit Chadashah/Hebrew NT) bodily. (Colossians 2:9). Just as your son shares your HUMAN nature, so The Only Begotten Son of GOD shares His Divine Nature or Form (Philippians 2:6). Same nature or form BUT not in Authority, just as your sons and daughters are not equal to you, as their parents, in authority. Naturally because you came first, NOT them. You were the one who conceived them in your wombs, NOT them. The same thing with Yeshua, who was BEGOTTEN (not created) by The Father. He Himself said “The Father is GREATER than I.”(John 14:28) Was, and always will be (1 Corinthians 15:28)

    ELOHIM is made up of Three NO not the trinity doctrine but in Biblical terms, the GODHEAD (ELOHOTH), made up of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Qodesh, which is Feminine in Hebrew). But ELOHIM, just like a human family, is UNITED in mind and purpose. That is why in The Jewish SHEMA (HEAR!) It is said:

    SHEMA YisraEL YHWH ELOHEYNU (Plural) YHWH Echad (Composite Unity) (Deuteronomy/ Devarim 6:4)

    Hear Israel YHWH Your GOD YHWH (is) ONE.

    YAH = Male Image
    HAWAH = Female Image

    That is why ELOHIM said

    Let US create Man (or MANKIND from Adam) in OUR own IMAGE (NOT ASPECT) but IMAGE. (Bereshit/Genesis 1:26)

    Verse 27 Clarifies this is about Gender

    Male AND Female HE created them.

    Adam from The Father’s Image and Eve, from The Holy Spirit, Ruach ha Qodesh (it’s not just simple breath. It has wide implications). It’s not surprising, why Eve’s name in Hebrew is HAWAH.

    The Other Half of YAH

    Therefore The Psalmist unlocks YHWH’s Dual Image when it writes:

    AS the eyes of slaves look on the Hand of their Master (MALE) and as the eyes of female slaves look on the Hand of their Mistress (FEMALE) so our eyes look on YHWH OUR ELOHIM till He shows us mercy. (Psalms 123:2)

    Now why HE and not she? Because the Male was created first, and The Husband is The Head of the family. But in ELOHIM’s eyes, a husband AND wife (created in HIS Image) is counted as ONE flesh. (Echad) (Genesis 2:24)

    Echad, btw, is the SAME Hebrew word used in The Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    It’s actually NOT difficult to understand this if you know the ROOTS of your faith and understand HEBREW and ARAMAIC which was the original language Yeshua spoke. For Yeshua and most of His followers are JEWISH, not American, Chinese or Korean.

    NOT a Western Preacher.

    So, if you’re coming from the west or a non-Jewish Believer, take this advice and “boast NOT against the Branches.” (Romans 11:18)

    Shalom.

    From one belonging to A Messianic Congregation

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