The love of many [of Jehovah’s Witnesses] will grow cold

//The love of many [of Jehovah’s Witnesses] will grow cold

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Wednesday, May 31

Let your brotherly love continue.Heb. 13:1.

We need to develop our brotherly love now, for it will help us during whatever tests and trials we may face in the future. Even now, before the outbreak of the great tribulation, we have a strong need for brotherly love. Many of our brothers have been adversely affected by earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tsunamis, or other natural disasters. Some brothers are suffering because of opposition and persecution. Added to all of this are the economic woes we experience daily as a result of living in this corrupt system of things. As such problems increase, so do our opportunities to demonstrate the depth of our brotherly affection. Even though “the love of the greater number [of people] will grow cold,” we need to prove that our brotherly love continues.

One of the most common accusations leveled at Jehovah’s Witnesses is that we have our own Bible. On the face of it that is certainly true. The Watchtower has published the so-called New World Translation for about a half century.

But the accusation goes further than that. Critics claim that the Watchtower has “changed” the Bible to fit their doctrine. Although the differences in translations are relatively minor, it is true that a few key passages are worded slightly differently in the NWT that impacts the meaning, John 1:1 and John 8:58 coming to mind foremost.

But it is not that Watchtower changed anything. It is more appropriate to say that the publishers of the New World Translation fixed some of the more egregious errors that most translations have embraced.

One device the New World translators have used is brackets. For example, in the NW Reference Bible the bracketed word [other] appears in several places in the first chapter of Colossians, saying of Christ that “all [other] things came through him.” All translators have to insert words into the text that do not appear in the original in order to convey the proper meaning. Most, however, do not use brackets. It is simply a device used by the Watchtower translation committee that lets the reader know that a certain word was inserted by the translator for clarity. There is nothing sinister about that as long as the implied meaning is evident in the original. (Evidently, trinitarians are opposed to added clarity on passages they wish to obscure.)

That being said, now consider the day’s text and the cited passage from the 24th chapter of Matthew, which states: “the love of the greater number [of people] will grow cold…”

The NWT itself does not insert the bracketed phrase [of people]. Why then does the Watchtower in effect re-translate the NWT specifically for this text —giving the casual reader the impression that the verse is quoted whole from the NWT? Is it honest to imply that the context of Matthew warrants the insertion? Bethel’s editing desk could have simply offered a word of explanation, perhaps commenting that the prophecy applies to non-Christians. Instead, inserting the bracketed words appears to be an underhanded trick to slyly convince Jehovah’s Witnesses that this aspect of Jesus’ prophecy is not in reference to the love of Christians growing cold.

But consider the immediate context. Jesus said: “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.”

Mark’s parallel account is worded slightly different. Here is the way it reads: “Furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.”

Mark’s account of Jesus’ prophecy indicates that the people doing the handing over are brothers —spiritual brothers and even family members. Obviously, when brothers, and fathers and children begin betraying one another into death, the love they formally had has grown stone cold. And since Jesus stressed the need for endurance in order to attain salvation, it is evident that this distressing circumstance will directly impact Christians.

Surely, none of Jehovah’s Witnesses are so deluded so as to imagine that this aspect of the sign of Christ’s presence is already evident. Yet, the Watchtower routinely states that all the features of the sign have been on display since 1914.

The truth is, in recent decades hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses have left the organization. The Internet has certainly expedited the exodus. With the world wide web info revolution, it is harder and harder for the Watchtower to keep a lid on all of their lawless misdeeds.

Be that as it may, what will happen when nations and kingdoms go to war and the system crashes? Then it will become apparent that the Watchtower has misled Jehovah’s Witnesses about Christ’s Kingdom having come to power in 1914. In a state of civil war, financial collapse, anarchy and martial law, it doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see families and friends turning on each other. Indeed, many will be stumbled. 

As it stands now, Jehovah has placed a restraint upon the demons. But what will happen during the hour of the authority of darkness?

image_pdfimage_print
2017-05-31T12:37:36+00:00 May 31st, 2017|Commentary|270 Comments
  • Huldah

    Hi Br.King
    Haven’t even read the article but just had to thank you for the title alone!!!!
    I remember reading this scripture years ago and being glad to find an explanation for what’s happening in the congregation.
    Then I made the mistake of looking for confirmation in the WT.
    It said something like. ‘This applies to the world. The love of Jehovah’s Witnesses would NEVER go cold.’
    A chill goes through me as I now realize how gravely misleading even cruel (to those of us who suffer from congregation abuses)that statement truly is.

  • Huldah

    I have to add this on the point of “many will be stumbled” betray and hate one another.

    To set the stage. My mother in law (elder’s wife) has been a major stumbling block to my husband and me.

    Yesterday a conversation I had with her came back to memory.

    I spoke of a study we had who has such a loving genuine personality. I wondered why she wasn’t already in the truth.

    My in law explained that she reasoned that people like that appear loving, but would turn on you if things heated up. I guess she figured Jeh only allows those who are truly loving at their core into the truth.
    Laughable notion to me now.

    This idea of changing their tune is actually very accurate when you apply it to the congregation. So many who seem loving now will likely become vicious under test.

    My mother in law has actually fulfilled her own statement in viciously and slyly attacking her own son to defend her own ego and her duplicitous daughter even throwing him out of the house and raising her hand to hit him on one occasion when he took a stand against his sister’s ways.

    I no longer have any doubt that she would hand him over to death to protect her cherished delusions.

    I don’t mean to be complaining, but am putting this out there to make everyone aware that this is real. It will happen.

    The killer Rabbit of Caerbannog from Monty Python Holy Grail comes to mind.
    So cute and sweet and fluffy until challenged??.

    • Ah yes, the killer rabbit. ‘He will do you a treat, mate.’

      • Huldah

        Good memory. However my favorite line is “What’s he do, nibble your bum?”

    • Song of Hannah

      Huldah, seems you and your hubby have been through the wringer – much like my hubby & I have. So glad you’ve come along, have really appreciated your thoughts on things…If you ever want to reach out and share further, my email is songofhannah@zoho.com (for spam’s sake this message will self-destruct shortly… lol)

      • Huldah

        Thank you means A LOT to me. Same to you and your insights. I often think, “I wonder what Hannah would say about this.”

        • Burt Reynolds

          Know also that you are a valued friend.

    • Joseph S.
      • Huldah

        Thanks Joseph!
        I was just thinking. “Man, I need to watch that again.” Lol

    • Song of Hannah

      Oh man the rabbit analogy me laugh. But I guess we won’t be laughing when it happens ay?

    • Burt Reynolds

      If you remember the rabbit of Caerbannog then all will be well with you. But do you remember the ‘Meaning of life’ Prayers in the chapel? ‘Oh Lord, thou art so great! We down here are all jolly impressed, I can tell you….’ That’s about the sum total of value in prayers being offered up by the watchtower at this time. Incidentally, that was filmed at my boarding school and I used to sit in that chapel every day….and the science room too, but we won’t go into that bit! (If you go on the Internet and look up Royal Masonic Senior School for boys, Bushey, Hertforshire, you can see what an imposing…and dreadful…place it was).

    • Peaceful Waters

      Thanks for sharing that! That’s exactly what they are “cherished delusions”.

      • Huldah

        Hi Peaceful
        Glad you’re in agreement.
        It seems we are in a time of delusion.

        The lie has never had so much power since Satan invented it than it does right now.
        I think we can take that as a sign of how close we are to the end.

        It’s the lying to themselves that these ones seem to have perfected.

        Psalm 15:1
        15 O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent?

        Who may reside in your holy mountain?+

        2 The one who is walking faultlessly,*+

        Practicing what is right+

        And speaking the truth in his heart.+

  • JTK

    brother will deliver brothers to death, even a father a child, and children will deliver even their parents
    to be put to death!
    the cliff is higher than i first thought and the fall of faith heavier
    its actually very hard to believe what is written is it not it seems more than a stumbling and more of a total breakdown at least for some
    the demons once released are obviously going to party on this planet

    • Richard Long

      The demons are already partying on this planet. The parousia marks the time when they are no longer permitted to slink home to “sleep it off” in heaven.

      • The Raven

        You know, everything Robert wrote up there applies to us as well. It encompasses all Jah’s people. Active, inactive, exes, alleged apostates and those denied dedication.

        • Richard Long

          Is this a statement in generality, or should I be conducting a self examination right this particular moment?

          • The Raven

            hahahaha! In general, my friend.!

            • Richard Long

              Well, who couldn’t use a little more, right?

  • Song of Hannah

    Wow good catch Robert. Makes me wonder about threcent magazine where they seem to attribute the phrase to Jehovah’s people.https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2017/do-not-let-your-love-grow-cold/

    Wonder what’s up with that? ?

    • Looks like they are fighting it out in the editorial board room.

  • Beverly kenyon

    Aren’t they encouraged now to inform on each?! So it will come easy for them to hand each other over for Tribualation and death. Coupled with hate and simmering animosity for each other it’s already in the psyche of some of them to be informants and of course coupled with a financial collapse it won’t be difficult for most of them to sell each other out and in some cases they will actually think they’re doing a service for Jehovah! Where is the natural affection? It’s only to be found on an individual basis and not on a unified brotherhood. How can most of them avoid the subtle hate generated by the MOL? Too much judging regarding how righteous a person is perceived to be even down to infantile things like highlighting the WT study article! I think most people judge themselves and don’t need an imperfect person to judge…don’t judge me and I won’t judge you is what should be kept in mind!

  • JTK

    something just occurred to me when reading the other comments, and i may well not be up to speed with what others here think, but what actually causes this cooling off and handing over to death of family relations.
    is it a literal handing over to put to literal death or is it death in context of belonging to the organisation and being thrown out and treated as if one is dead
    in short is it the 1914 delusion that causes this to occur as it divides those who waken to its falsity and those who hold to it as truth
    or are we being told about a collapse in faith and a siding with the authorities in an act of betrayal of those loyal to Yahweh?

    • Richard Long

      Really wanting to avoid being the word police here, but should we not all keep firmly in mind that the DELUSION is the false parousia, which for Jehovah’s Witnesses was established with Russell, et. al. in 1874. The 1914 HOAX is merely one of the lying signs promulgated by the apostasy to preserve the original delusion.

      Your line of questioning, however, is entirely reasonable and worthy of discussion!

      • The Raven

        There’s also this:
        de·lu·sion
        dəˈlo͞oZHən/Submit
        noun
        an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
        “the delusion of being watched”

        🙂

        • Richard Long

          Fair enough. I clarified.

          • The Raven

            Almost as if they are under a spell. Discussions concerning these matters with them either end abruptly, devolve into indignant accusations of questionable mental ability or a lack of love for God and faith. I am bemused by some of this and saddened.
            Can you love God and His organization so much that you would slay truth? How does that even work?

            • Huldah

              I always used this as a sort of touchstone in the ministry. I would gauge the person’s motivations based on the reaction I received when I read them a scripture. Some were just like, “Meh”. Others got very testy. You could hand them a magazine, but don’t read them a scripture.

              Hebrews 4:12 Berean Study Bible
              For
              the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged
              sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow.
              It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

              Maybe the truth has the same power.

              In the case of my in law, her whole identity is wrapped up in who her father was and the prominence her family has in the congregation. Her social group IS her identity. She has to fit into it. They are so imbedded in social connections and the belief systems that their peers promote, it would be impossible for them to reject the status quo.

              That’s the danger, though, following men because their opinion becomes more important to you than God’s or Christ’s. It becomes a real test of humility too. Is your position inside your peer group more important to you than the truth?

            • The Raven

              That same thing happens in the world’s institutions as well. Yep. No one’s immune to that sort of thinking. It’s also no wonder to me that those who gravitate towards power and social status have a higher percentage of psychopaths than the general population. Much like politicians and worldly preachers. Now there’s an entertaining bunch!

            • Richard Long

              I have often reasoned that ANYONE reaching out for authority MUST be demented by varying degree relative to the level of power desired. Isn’t it a 24/7/365 enterprise just to control oneself? The energy required to exercise control over another or a group of others MUST come from a source outside ourselves. I reckon time tells that source for every individual, based on the story their lives tell about them?

            • The Raven

              Ecclesiastes 8
              9 All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.

              Christ set the example for service. When He rules I think many people are going to be shocked at what happens to the arrogant shepherds who served themselves instead of Christ’s sheep. Both flocks.

              The devil knows who he can control by watching what they say and do. For those professing Jah it’s pretty stupid if you think about it. Who do they think they’re fooling?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I enjoyed the authority given me as a manager because it was nice to be treated as a source of understanding and advice within the job and to be able to help people practically. It made me feel valued. But I never abused the position and my motive was simply to provide a service to individuals who were victims of this system. My problem was defending the clientele instead of saving money. The two did not have a relationship at all I was told. Worse, I argued the point. Worse still, I told them the truth and outcomes of their intransigence on the client group. And even worse than that, I questioned their insight….but worst of all, I told them so. But then I was only middle management and thus not a ‘proper’ manager. For some, reaching out for authority is a pathway to accomplishing what is right, not for oneself always, but to accomplish a little more good than would otherwise be the case. But those who do take control, must not be involved for personal reasons lest they become as you describe, but rather, have a clear understanding of the issues, other than a desire to inflict their own needs and aspirations on others for mere self gratification. We called it ‘professional empathy.’

            • The Raven

              It’s so hard to find honest people who care about others and I commend you for doing that. It’s a shame you had to deal with folks who turn everything into a power play or look solely at their bottom line leaving those they are supposed to serve, suffering.

            • The Raven

              I worked one project where 90% of the crew spoke no english and 50% had no electrical experience at all. I was lead on that site. I had several teams doing various jobs on the build. One team was not directly under my control. They had a foreman who drove them worse than animals. One event changed that. The temp was in the high 90’s and the humidity was up there too. We were all stewing in our own juices. Some of the men had stopped sweating. That’s dangerous. I instructed my foremen to give them a break, hand out mineral tabs and get them some water or Gatorade. This particular foreman refused. He told me, they will work until he says otherwise. He was one arrogant and cruel individual who also knew nothing about electrical and could not even read prints. He already cost us by cutting back leads 20 ft shy of the xformers and tried to blame it on his men.
              I confronted him about ALL those matters that afternoon. When my teams translated what I was saying to his crew, they had a blow out. I could barely chop my way through spanglish but they were pissed at him. My superintendent told me later that they were all now under my supervision and their foreman was told to deal with it or go to the gate. He quit.
              I told my foremen to take them into their respective crews and begin teaching them. Something that jackass never did. I’ve dealt with very good supervisors and some real losers. You can’t BS your way through the business I was in. Anyone with experience can see through that in minutes. It didn’t matter how much brown nosing you did either. And believe me, some tried.
              There is a higher level of crazy the higher up you go for certain… but not all are.

            • Burt Reynolds

              My manager was/probably still is, psychotic, that’s for sure. A real control freak too. I use her treatment of me as a training ground for ‘…forgiving your enemies, for if you only forgive those whom you love, of what good is that?’, because I have a feeling that there are greater trials for ‘forgiving’ on the horizon so I had better not fail on this trivial example.

            • The Raven

              I know you’re right about that. Christ commanded it.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Yes, in the world of politics it’s called collectivism. A group that sticks together for the so called greater good, in their opinion. Makes no difference whether it is proved wrong they will stick to it! When a person has the ability to prove through scripture that the reasoning is so wrong/incorrect then we must come to the conclusion as the scriptures state, “they like it that way”.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Our greatest hope in all that is going on within the organization will become so obvious, so blatant, that all those truly loving Jehovah and His Son will run for the hills, leave behind all that caused confusion and stumbling. I feel that is the loving kindness of Jehovah, that all his people and others alike will see and grasp faith in all he desires us to do. What blessings await all those, all of us, who leave behind the desires of the world, for the blessings by our God and Jesus Christ!

            • The Raven

              I can’t help but wonder how many will do as Joseph says and explode in anger at them for their this. People have worked all their lives in God’s service only to be led by liars. This comes to mind:
              Terry Pratchett — ‘Always remember that the crowd that applauds your coronation is the same crowd that will applaud your beheading. People like a show.’

            • Burt Reynolds

              Very true.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Absolutely agree. But one of many things I’ve learned on Roberts site is to always check what you are learning, “make sure of all thing” all the scriptural warnings against being mislead. That there will always be those amongst us selling a lie. And right in the big middle of it all is “the man of lawlessness”. One of the huge things I had to learn and come to terms with through out many years within the organization, WHO were these warnings directed at. I believe most of us truly believed those warning were directed to Christendom, or anyone out side the organization! We were in a sense under the impression, nothing could ever touch us. And yet when we really look at the scriptures, clearly we can see, even states My People! In learning these things turned the truth inside out, realizing we were in an armchair religion. Even Christendom teaches a similar philosophy, they will all be protected by being caught up in the rapture, when? Prior to the tribulation. All the more in this time we must all constantly look to Gods word as the only truth and be reasonable and honest in maintaining the truth found, always scrutinizing through prayer to our Father to give us the insight needed to gain accurate knowledge, to learn His will for all. Human nature, along with satans influence, we often look to what is easy with little effort on our part. Of course looking to Christ the sacrifice He made and the pain Jehovah had to endure by giving His Son was anything but easy!!!

            • The Raven

              Hebrews 4:12 Very good!

              The demons cannot read our thoughts. They can watch us to figure out what our intentions, motivations as well as weaknesses are. But only He can read us inside and out. The devil knows what motivates people like her and he exploits that.

            • Huldah

              Excellent summation of the situation.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Also please keep in mind that Satan appears to be very acquainted with the scriptures, take note of what Satan said when speaking to Jesus
              “for it is written”. So it is possible for Satan to manipulate the scriptures thus misleading unsuspected ones, So I’m quite sure the demons can do the same.

              Matthew
              5 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city,+ and he stationed him on the battlement* of the temple
              6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, ( for it is written:)
              ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you,’ and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’”
              7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah* your God to the test.

            • The Raven

              That’s a good point. When reasoning it isn’t too far a step in the wrong direction.

            • Burt Reynolds

              According to the actions of my sister and brother in law, their position does seem linked to social prominence as your thoughts suggest. I wonder how he, as an long serving elder of some 30+ years, would be able to stand up in front of the congregation and say ‘sorry chaps, I didn’t do my research into the word properly, I just accepted what the watchtower told me was truth….it’s their fault….er…….does anyone have any idea what we should do now? There is someone down the road claiming to be Christ, perhaps we should go after him….’
              It’s a difficult road to come back from for an elder, or teacher……for anyone. My sister has the mindset that her baby brother, me, cannot possibly teach her a thing, that it makes me think that if she is that blinded by the lie, she won’t have much of a problem handing me over and blaming me for being ‘apostate’. ‘Beware of your older sister, for in her eyes, thou didst never grow up and are always wrong and weak and easily misled. Apostate she shall claim you to be. For thou shall not be able to remonstrate with her, or make her see sense.’ ( Book of Burt. Letter from his Annoying and Haughty Sister. Chap.1. V.1).

            • Huldah

              I wrote a couple of replies to you, but Disqus is being a bully and calling me bad names like “Spam”. They’re working on their attitude so hopefully you will be graced with the presence of my wordy replies soon.

            • Huldah

              Anyway, I’m reading the 1974 Yearbook. It’s on the CDrom or this site…

              http://da-ip.getmyip.com:8080/PDF/Old%20Publications/?sort=d

              I’ll probably get spammed again for putting that address in there:(

              It’s about Germany and basically lists everything that’s going to happen during Christ’s presence BECAUSE IT ALL HAPPENED IN GERMANY FIRST.

              Page 174/175 is so appropriate to this discussion.
              Brothers were disfellowshipping others because they were not following a certain knowledgeable prominent brother RIGHT INSIDE THE CONCENTRATION CAMP!!!
              …and we thought we had it bad!

              I read this yearbook and I think…OH CRAAAAAAP!

            • Max

              Oh yes the prominent families in the
              organization. You are so right in your assertion of them. Not all of
              them are like that but many of them are so proud of their lineage and
              social standing that make a difficult situation worse. When I was at
              Bethel I had to deal with many of them. At Bethel the rules might
              have applied to the rest of the publishers but when came to one of
              the special families exceptions always were made. They all had
              special treatment even though I did not see much of a spirituality
              in many of them they were treated like royalty. They would be invited
              to lunch on a regular basis most of the time when they brought one of
              their friends for tours of the branch we would normally see a branch
              comity member or his wife leading the personal tour of the
              installations. After awhile I got to know that the personal
              contributions given by them to bethel’s elder circuit and district
              overseers were very substantial that in one particular situation the
              branch overseer had to intervene because one circuit overseer had
              received a BMW as a gift from one of these families and he was
              charging the maintenance of the car to the local congregations.

            • Huldah

              Thanks for the Bethel insights.
              Those ones seem to fit the description given the “drunkards” in this text…
              Matt. 24
              48 “But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’+ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know,+ 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity…

              I am reminded of how such ones wine and dine the prominent ones of Bethel and seem to influence them in subtle ways to deviate into materialistic or secular human thinking.
              I think “evil slave” is one who is unduly influenced by his prominent “friends” the drunkards.

            • The Raven

              That’s a great point. I’ve heard much mumbling and rumbling about that from JWs. Max was there to see it firsthand. When the cat’s away…

            • Burt Reynolds

              Wow! A free BMW and maintenance for life! One would imagine that the governing body have the same deal, but then I suppose they excuse themselves by the fact that Jesus drove a four chambered, one horsepower , green-fuelled Mule XJS, with luxury horsehair saddle and recyclable exhaust….not to mention 360 degree automatic and independant direction control, Intuitive warning horn, heated seat and top-of-the-range four hoof drive with sure-grip tread…….and free parking.

            • Max

              LOL

            • that’ll make Beverly laugh

            • Beverly kenyon

              It does make me laugh DA! So funny! At least Jesus’ form of transport was environmentally friendly and love the heated seat and the four hoof drive…that is one high performance ride!

            • Vasilios Agio

              Are you serious serious ? I can’t believe this . You saw things such as those at bethel ? I am so glad you shared this .have ever seen a rabbit run across the road at night and it gets stunned by the bright headlights … that me since I read your comment .

            • Max

              Vasilios, in the organization there are many very rich families and many of them are very generous, some are generous for the right reasons and some for advancement into the ranks of the WT. They are very influential because they have the ears of the branch committee members and possibly of the GB too.

            • Vasilios Agio

              That is so wrong . Trying to buy there way into the paradise . I remember being a part of a ckngregation and looking back now I recall elders and ministerial servants who were financially affluent and respected and to be honest whenever I spoke to them I didn’t feel right . They came across to me as tho they had something greater than I had almost like a worldly attitude but in the congregation . There must be a lot of people like this who are not in line with Christ And when I hear you say these things it shocks me to know this happens in gods temple .thankyou brother

            • Joseph S.

              Where can I sign up for that maintenance plan ?
              1134 Kings Way……..

            • Burt Reynolds

              Perhaps It works on the principle that a drowning man will, in an effort to keep his head above water, ( and beliefs?) drown the man trying to save him. Also, we have to take the phrase, ‘they believe the lie’, as just that. They believe the lie is actually the truth. Why should we look for a greater meaning. Thus those who do not believe, are given over as a service to cleanse, their own temple.

            • The Raven

              I always look for greater meaning to see if I missed something. More often than not, I have.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I meant looking for a meaning that is not there, not that one should not search the scriptures. Not all scripture needs a degree to fathom it. If it did, I would be lost.

            • The Raven

              I don’t see it as looking for something that’s not there, it’s looking for elaboration on what is there in an effort to understand how or why this is possible. Christ explained that as well. That’s all.

        • Burt Reynolds

          The scripture also notes that ‘they will deliver you up thinking they are doing a service to Jehovah…’, and thus indicative of more than just a doctrinal issue. From Cain and Abel we have seen those who recognise the truth and who try to practice it, killed or harmed by those jealous of such, knowing that they themselves do not have approval. Therefore, they must know of their being in such a state of disapproval . If we turn that fight scene Joseph showed us around, to the point of view that this is how badly the organisation want us to believe their lies, along with the brothers who believe those lies, then we see the illustration behind the scripture into the lengths they will go to to ‘make’ us believe their lie or punnish us if we don’t. It seems after all that the two were friends. But it won’t be them that do it. They will deliver us up as the scriptures say, for others to do it – as in nazi Germany .

          • The Raven

            That sort of treatment brings me back to Catholic school and the cruel manner in which they tried to “save” me.

        • Vasilios Agio

          Strong point mad good observation . You just made me realise how strong that word is . I am of Greek origin so I will read this word in the Greek bible and see what it is . A delusion is defiantly in line with 1914 because if you take notice of world events and you still teach 1914 as Christ ruling and Satan being cast out and the four horsemen that seem to have taken a long service leave or they forgot to gallop then it is very deluding to say the least . May I add that it becomes even more delusional when you try and tell a witness that 1914 is a hoax and that Satan has faked his own ousting from heaven to fool even the chosen one who fall asleep and yet they can’t see it . That’s a delusion . I tell you the Truth if I was sitting in the Kingdom Hall 15years ago and someone came to me and explained that 1914 was a lie with scriptual backing I would’ve gotten out of that chair and said what’s going on somethings not right . The first time someone told me about 1914 back in early 90s in a book study I didn’t believ it . I just didn’t accept it but kept it to myself and that’s the truth . Thankyou for bringing this to mind it’s a powerful word .

        • Burt Reynolds

          We are all being watched!

          • The Raven

            You ain’t kiddin’.

      • JTK

        thanks for the clarification, i do understand that the invisible presence is the root delusion and the 1914 teaching is simply a date.
        however 1874 and 1914 differ in that 1914 was aided by advent of the 1st world war that reinforced the delusion that Satan was Cast out and Christ was invisibly present.
        the 2nd WW reinforced it further.

        Satan was definitley involved with the date of 1914 not sure about 1874
        what concerns me at present is that it seems unthinkable to most that some Jehovahs Witnesses, and i suspect probably a lot are going to loose faith not only in the WTO leadership but also in Yahweh, since they have been programmed to associate the two as God and His organisation, seperating them may prove difficult

        the exposure of the 1914 teaching will for some Witnesses be the end of their belief that the scriptures are God breathed and true, and probably that God even exists.
        there also has to be an external force to pressure Gods people to this point and i think that this is shown in scripture as radiating from the eighth King in the symbolic form of the mark 666, the new global currency, and the license for each person to buy and sell.
        also there is more delusion to come upon the whole world with regard to mankinds beginnings, Nasa is cooking things up, ready for a show that will shock and mislead even the most faithful if that were possible.

        • Richard Long

          “The exposure of the 1914 teaching will for some Witnesses be the end of their belief that the scriptures are God breathed and true, and probably that God even exists.”

          Such was nearly the case for myself, as “my 1914 was broken” by this testimonial of Daniel Genser, a good brother currently “lost”:

          https://medium.com/@danielgenser/what-i-believe-to-be-true-and-how-i-have-come-to-believe-it-13df821c3ed

          I count it as nothing less than a divine blessing that I was forced to rebuild my faith from the sub-basement of “how did we get here?”, and in doing so stumbled onto this site, where JS met me on the porch with a shotgun. It was truly a test whether I would stand up for myself or just walk away and abandon my faith.

          Thank you for your original comment, as we all received a blessing in the ensuing discussion.

    • The Raven

      It could be both. Many of us are dead to them in a figurative sense since this delusion began. The world already has that dog eat dog attitude but JW believe they are immune. They are not. Later when the hour of test arrives we may very well see many betrayed by those closest to them to save their own hides. Makes me wonder what led some people to the truth to begin with. We are about to see everyone’s true nature, it seems.

      • Max

        I have asked that question myself many
        times “what led them to the truth to begin with.” Over the years
        I have seen a decline in spirituality in the organization. Specially
        the leadership and specially new elders. Must be that life is getting
        harder and harder for friends to be spirituals in a darken world. The
        fruitage of the spirits are harder and harder to cultivate Galatians
        5:22-23. On the other hand I keep seeing self center individuals
        advancing in the organization because the people whom promoted them
        are showing the same qualities. Galatians 5:25-26. So by the time the
        end comes I see some of our brothers behaving in an ungodly manner
        toward fellow witnesses.

        • Arvid Fløysand

          Many factors involved but all points to one orgin..satan.
          His fingerprints are all over the place…Jesus told us why it would be like it is in our days..Matt.13:33 “The Kingdom of the heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented”
          (Matthew wrote his book in hebrew,and it sayes three parts of mass with leaven in all of them).
          This is the “leaven” of pharisees that Jesus warned about,and it has “infected” all of those three masses.(Matt.16:6)
          The first was Jehovahs people by the old covenant.
          The second was Jehovahs people by the new covenant.
          The third is Jehovahs people in our days.

          Jehovah has allowed satan to put some “leaven” in all of them ..thats why all three “masses” started out quite well but after some time ended very bad..
          So i belive that in all three “masses” people was led to the truth with good intensions but some of them become “infected” by “leaven” because they did not watch out for it…Jehovah has kindly warned about this danger all the way.

          As mere humans we are not able to fix this.

          Only Jehovah can…and we sure know what He did with his people and the temple with those two first “masses”
          This third time is the Grand finale,and will be the end of all “leaven”
          The end of all bad “fishes”.
          The end of all the “weed”
          The end of the evil “slave”
          And the end of whom the “fingerprints” belongs to ..satan

          • Max

            Wow Arvid! very good application of Mat 13:33. Thank you very much!

          • Burt Reynolds

            How do we know that the three large measures applies to what Jehovah did to his people in the past and plans for the future? The example is speaking about the kingdom of heaven and the example could have a singular, or plural application, as you suggest. The scripture could equally be applied in terms of a single action of cleansing or a principle. The measures spoken of would I presume be quite large? It may be that the scripture is applied in the sense that only a little leaven is required to corrupt a total and large mass of flour…..people, teaching, truth. The emphasis may be on quantity and totality of deception applying to all who are decieved by these teachers who take the lead, rather than three separate events of wrongdoing by these ‘priests’, and illustrates the depth and penetration of corruption in its totally absorbing reach, rather than a sequence of events. So what is the scriptural basis for belief here because the infection of leven on flour is total….that is the point of the illustration, not just to some parts as you suggest is the case.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Matthew 22:15…Matthew 25:8,9…(.btw..i am sure the book of Burt got all the right answers)

            • Burt Reynolds

              The Book of Burt is always right except where it’s wrong and for amusement purposes only….sadly not even that at my age, I’m sure!

            • Richard Long

              I believe Arvid said he had extracted his thought from a more literal Hebrew translation.

              “(Matthew wrote his book in hebrew,and it sayes three parts of mass with leaven in all of them).”

          • “because they did not watch out for it”

            because they trust the WT/GB so much. organizational idolatry – Jer 7:4

        • The Raven

          That’s true. People are getting tired of being yanked back and forth, one failed prediction after another in a world that’s gotten meaner each decade. I understand your other observation too. Most believe the lies. But the GB knows they are lies.

          • Max

            They must know they are lies right?
            Which makes it even worse… for me knowing what is going on with the
            GB sometimes I still naively hope they would not know what is going
            on, but I know they must know. And they must know brother’s King site
            and work too. But even then their hearts are not moved to emend their
            wrongdoing. If I were in their pants I would be peeing my pants for
            fear of what Jehovah would do to me when judgment day comes. It is
            such a huge responsibility to teach Jehovah’s sheep that if you want
            to escape God’s wrath you better make sure that what you are teaching
            them harmonizes with His word so under your watch not even one of
            them is lost. The GB have no fear of God.

            • The Raven

              Why do you think they silenced the anointed? Of course they know. And yes, I would hate to be in their shoes. Arvid’s comments on that are pretty clear.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Franz called them victims of victims. How much that may condemn or exonerate them I suppose depends on their true heart condition. Jehovah’s mercy is righteous. If they are aware then I suppose they condemn themselves, as we all do to a degree.

            • Max

              Wow victims of victims… that’s deep. So was Franz an apostate or not?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Franz was ‘apostate’ but his brother was a firm governing body member. I don’t know if franz’s book crisis of conscience revealed that he was aware of the real apostacy or if he came to a correct understanding of the truth, but he certainly came to understand the corruption. He died some years ago but even if he did not understand the truth, he nonetheless followed his conscience and searched for Jehovah elsewhere. I hope he found him.

            • Just so you know, Bill Bowen of Silent Lambs had an exchange with Ray Franz before his death. Franz defended the WT’s child abuse policy. Said there was no problem with it. That is because he was part of the GB back in the 80’s when they formed the policy of silence and non-cooperation with the police and courts. Franz didn’t understand the corruption. He was part of it.

            • Richard Long

              Seems to me I recall that the company Ray Franz was keeping later on were of the cross wearing rabid Ex-JW haters type. I cant blame him for being bitter but, I believe I’d rather end up out and alone than out and where he ended up.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s sad to know. I was hoping for better from him!

            • Richard Long

              Be your pessimist self, Burt! Avoid disappointment.

            • KB

              I’m not 100% sure I would call Raymond Franz an apostate. The Watchtower would call him and apostate, just as they would call brother King an apostate, but I wouldn’t label him as one. I’ve never read his book COC, but I’ve heard it’s an eye opener to the corruption in the organization. Most here too would be labeled apostate by the Watchtower because of our association with a disfellowshipped person, and excepting the fact that 1914 is a sham. As for Raymond’s uncle Frederick Franz I’ve heard some real crazy story’s about some things he did and how he acted. It could be that Jehovah was more pleased with Raymond than Frederick. Jehovah’s the ultimate judge. Just my opinion thought I’d throw it there.

            • Daisy d

              So glad you did.
              It seems Bowen lashed out after Franz refused to join in with him at some media event about child abuse amongst the witnesses. He turned against him, insinuating that he was “covering up something he does not wish to reveal” after first claiming that Ray had “founded” and is the “author” of the society’s two eye witness rule as well as the slander issue that prevents anyone warning another of child abuse in the congregation”
              I googled: ” Bill Bowen and Ray Franz ” where Carl Olaf Jonnson goes into more detail citing the 1972 Org book written by RF , far too much for me to write, as its late here.
              Hope this snippet wets appetites as we all know that the real instigator for all that’s despicable against JWs is Satan himself.

            • Burt Reynolds

              You’re quite right. I simply meant apostate from the watchtower’s point of view. I don’t think generally speaking that anyone can apostate for speaking truth from a biblical point of view.

            • Richard Long

              I am persuaded by his own words on the matter that Ray Franz wasn’t neither against the mission of silentlambs nor the “author” of the WT pedophile policy. I will not post a link, but the information is out there, easy enough to find, as per Daisy’s instructions. Bill Bowen is a champion of the abuse victims, while noble enough a cause, but perhaps his participation in this movement has taken on a life of it’s own?

            • The Raven

              They have also shown themselves to be much like the Pharisees in many respects. They pay great attention to detail when it comes to certain matters but ignore the big ones because they cannot gain from it. Christ had few requirements for His followers. The org has MANY which have become an unnecessary burden and a hindrance to folks.

              Matthew 23:24
              Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

            • Max

              You are so right Raven. They pay attention to details but ignore the big ones. I saw and I keep seeing brothers and sisters being burned out by the unnecessary burden placed over them by the organization. The GB had placed their own teachings in a pedestal and given them power over the teachings of the Master because they have placed themselves in a position of god over the JW deciding for the brotherhood what is bad and what is good. That position is reserved only for Jehovah and his King. He made that clear in Eden with the prohibition of the tree of knowledge. He then held to himself the right to decide what was good or bad for mankind, and we can not expect he were going to change his mind now and give that power and right to the GB. They have added to many things to the kindly yoke and the light load left for us by the King. Matt 11:28-30

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Like a cage full of birds,
              So their houses are full of deception.
              That is why they have become powerful and rich.
              They have grown fat and smooth;
              They overflow with evil.
              They do not plead the legal case of the fatherless,
              That they may gain success;
              And they deny justice to the poor.’”
              “Should I not call them to account for these things?” declares Jehovah.
              “Should I not avenge myself on such a nation?
              Something appalling and horrible has occurred in the land: The prophets prophesy lies,
              And the priests dominate by their own authority.
              And my own people love it that way.
              But what will you do when the end comes?”
              Jeremiah 5:27-31.Read more>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/jeremiah/5/#v24005031

    • Joseph S.

      When they ALL (JWs) realize everything they learned about Prophecy is so wrong and they were lied to.

      • The Raven

        That was a pretty good movie. OBEY, CONSUME, MARRY, REPRODUCE!
        HAH!

      • “I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass…and I’m all out of bubblegum.”

        R.I.P R.R.P. 2015

        • Joseph S.

          Great to see you back, we missed you!!

    • Bklyn Kevin

      The coming implosion of the Watchtower (archive 2005)
      Excerpt:
      As for the cooling off, that must pertain to Jehovah’s people as well. Consider the fact that Jesus rebuked some of the anointed Ephesian Christians in his letter to them in Revelation for leaving the love they had at first. As all of Jehovah’s Witnesses know, Jesus’ letters to the seven congregations really apply to Christ’s anointed followers in the Lord’s day. It shows that some anointed Christians allow their love for God to grow cold. So, it is evident that the increasing of lawlessness and hypocrisy, along with a cooling off of love for God, takes place among Jehovah’s Witnesses and not Christendom, as is presently imagined. (For a more thoroughly discussion of this aspect of the sign of Jesus’ presence see the essay entitled: A Closer Look at 1914). Read more>
      https://e-watchman.com/the-coming-implosion-of-the-watchtower-archive/

  • Richard Long

    “As it stands now, Jehovah has placed a restraint upon the demons.”

    Can anyone link a previous article discussing this more fully?

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Search results for: restraint upon the demons.Read a lot more>
      https://e-watchman.com/?s=+restraint+upon+the+demons

      • Richard Long

        Kevin, while waiting, I did that exact search and read those articles. Unless I missed something, the only specific reference I found to demons under restraint was those having dematerialized to escape the flood being from then on prevented from repeating the offense, they being “imprisoned” in the spirit realm, those the resurrected Jesus “preached to” upon the successful accomplishment of his earthly mission..

        It would appear Robert is saying something more here. Any other thoughts?

        Edit: perhaps this is a restraint on how far Jehovah will let his rebellious sons go in direct action against the anointed AT THIS TIME?

        • Burt Reynolds

          That’s an interesting point you raise there that I had not considered before. Preaching seems to carry with it the opportunity of change, of redemption if the message is listened to and acted upon. Otherwise, why does the scripture not say that Jesus went to condemn them. What does this verse actually mean then? ?

          • Richard Long

            Well, Robert’s essays discuss it, but redemption for that particular offense does not seem to be in the offing.

            https://e-watchman.com/spirits-prison-jesus-preached/

            • Burt Reynolds

              More for all of us to understand I’m sure. The more I look into the truth, the more overwhelming it seems to become. Not that the message is not straightforward, but that it brings to the imagination the implication of what life is, what it means and creation as a whole. It seems, having been reading this site and that the bible, that as has been said, both are fulfilled in due course. What then? …..we can start living! As Einstein’s theory points out, space and time are the same fabric….is that key to Jehovah’s eternity…surely the meaning of life cannot be just as Monty Python suggests!

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Corinthians 10:13-B.
          But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.
          However, you I will not exterminate.
          I will discipline you to the proper degree,
          And I will by no means leave you unpunished.
          Jeremiah 30:11-B. Read more>
          https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/jeremiah/30/#v24030011

    • Burt Reynolds

      ‘How to keep your demons under control in one easy lesson.’ Book of Burt. Letter to the Mancunians. Ch.3.

  • Tabitha

    I think we can certainly see this loss of love evident among the congregations and so called worshippers of Jehovah right now. Members are encouraged to treat their dissfellowshiped relatives as “dead” regardless of the circumstances, and you don’t even have to be dissfellowshiped to be treated this way, even by those who have been your close friends for years. Jesus admonishing to forgive up to 70 times has been replaced by judging others as either worthy or unworthy of your association. When you read the gospels and consider the way Jesus treated his apostles and disciples, even though they fell short so many times, you can’t help but be struck by his love and forgiveness. If only we could all TRULY follow his example, but sadly over the years we have been programmed to feel that this is an acceptable way to treat others. If the worst is yet to come, as we know it is, all I can say is …… “Jehovah help us, cause I don’t know who else will”.

    • Joseph S.

      Paul describes the situation we could expect among God’s own people during the time of the end in these words: “Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles, because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants. They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good, will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God, and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. (2 Timothy 3:1-5, NCV)

      • Tabitha

        Yes, that certainly sums it up Joseph. I like the NCV translation of this verse. I noticed too where it says people will do foolish things without thinking, I don’t think any of us can say we haven’t been guilty of that …… Truly a sign of the times!

      • Huldah

        NCV really opens up the true meaning of that verse.

        • Burt Reynolds

          What is NCV? Nuclear Catastrophy Version? Not Constitutional Version? Non-Catholic Version? Nice Compromise Version or Not Certain Version? Help! I’m acronym blind!

          • Joseph S.

            The New Century Version (NCV) is an English translation of the Bible with roots extending to the English Version for the Deaf (EVD) Bible translation (by the World Bible Translation Center, a subsidiary of Bible League International). It is also related to the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV), having longer sentences and a more fluent style. The NCV is now published by Thomas Nelson Publishers.

            The two overarching principles that stand behind the NCV are that a Bible translation needs to be both accurate and clear. The translation team of 50 Bible scholars and translators included people with translation experience on such acclaimed versions as the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, and the New King James Version. The best available Hebrew and Greek texts were used, principally the third edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek text and the latest edition of the Biblia Hebraica, along with the Septuagint.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Joseph. I will avail myself of a copy forthwith!

          • Vasilios Agio

            Lol

  • Yuri Fisher

    Hello my dear brothers

    We are near this time when last days will begin. As soon as WW3 erupts we will see people all over the world go crazy. Also in JW organization. JW will be close to collapse. Brothers will panic. Also in WW2 there were brothers who betrayed others. This time it will be worse. So when it will happen we the true brothers will be in danger from false brothers. I hope we will escape the collapse of WT. Even today I can see who is ready to betray me. Some already did it to me and my wife. So they will do it again. Just like Jesus knew before that Judas will betray him.

    • Richard Long

      Yuri, have you heard from Lev recently?

      • Yuri Fisher

        No Richard. I did not hear from him for a long time. Maybe he is afraid to write comments on this site. Maybe he must hide somewhere. We are still OK here. But time will come to endure persecution. How are you there.

        • Richard Long

          In the US, where we have so much abundance, I worry about the coming days when feeding my family will be my days work. And we scatter ourselves daily, so how to get everyone back together once the calamity begins is another concern that I particularly feel the weight of. And since trusting authority is a personal challenge for me, learning to trust Jehovah seems like it it currently my life’s work . So, in a word, I’m a mess, but currently in no immediate danger as you must live every day.

          • Southern ShaSha

            I must agree with all you have stated here. I feel there is no middle road, no compromise and yet that is what will be required of all people. So much talk of a national I.D. Card as a matter of fact it has been put into law to be phased in over time and completed in the year 2020. A cashless society is a goal as well. Robert pointed out at some point this may not be a compromise but I see it a little differently. If a world authority controls all financial rfid chipping, I should think we would need to submit to their authority in allegiance to the laws of this governing body. All finance whatever monetary system they put in place will be under their dictorial guide lines. they having the ability to cut anyone off for any reason at anytime. Our lifeline to food and water. Then kicks in their political view of how the world should be ran and monitored (surveillance as we see taking place now), our every move under control. And the state will require all to give our worship and allegiance to them alone. That is the one world religion they speak of. I believe I will have to make a run for it, along with my children and grandchildren take a chance of a shot in the back!! I truly believe acceptance of any of the above will be that “mark” spoken of in scripture. I too, must for now keep a balance, always putting all my faith in Jehovah and Jesus, to give us much needed help to find a way out, be it survival or death in our solid faith and allegiance to THEM alone. Scary days are ahead but always remembering Jehovahs promise to all keeping hold of our faith in Him, He will be with us every step of the way. That is the confidence we must maintain to get us through!!!

            • Richard Long

              But, for now at least, we all here have each other!

            • Burt Reynolds

              We do its true, but in England they have us over a barrel. They only have to make the purchase of tea a matter of aliegence to the state, and the whole country will cave in. Thank heavens they have not thought of that yet. Surely Jehovah would not make us go without tea? The bible clearly says that we shall Not be tested beyond what we can endure. It’s just not cricket!

            • The Raven

              In this country it would be beer.

            • Peaceful Waters

              Lol, surely he wouldn’t 😉

            • Huldah

              I buy my tea by the pound. I have a pound of Earl Grey in the cabinet, a nice black raspberry and several pounds of green tea.

              I’d seriously consider a trek across the Atlantic before you give in to the beast!

              I’d mail it to ya but I assume the postal systems won’t be running at that point.

            • The Raven

              Earl Grey, Jasmine, Italian Chamomile, black tea and coffee. LOTS of coffee. 🙂

            • NOAHtheARKist

              The idea of a “universal income” for all is something to pay attention to, what will be required to receive the “standard” living wage and “benefits” that will be imposed on people….makes one wonder as the scenario unfolds

            • Huldah

              Hi Noah
              EXACTLY…I was just going to mention Guaranteed Basic Income. Glad you did.
              No mark no money.
              Seems like exactly what is going to happen.

            • Burt Reynolds

              The USA and Britain, in fact most welfare states have that already in terms of unemployment pay, and in your case in the USA, health care. It’s only a small step to the other.

            • Southern ShaSha

              I do agree NOAHtheARKist. When it comes to any secular government there is always strings attached! And I feel assured it will be tyrannical in nature. True christians who are uncompromising will absolutely be a threat to it’s very order! I believe it will far exceed what the scriptures say regarding giving to ceaser, what is his but taking away what rightfully belongs to God!

            • seems to me, during the tribulation, the kingdom will be taking over and that means nothing will belong to Caesar but to Christ

            • Richard Long

              Robert has commented that the Eighth King and and Christ may rule concurrently while the drama of the parousia is played out., specifically so that people will have to choose a side. No?

            • well the kingdom is you and Jehovah knows/ judges the heart. Luke 17:20:21 there will be opertunity for a sort time to be a good Samaritan – Rev 6:6. and of course unrighteous people will have opertunity during the the thousand year rain. Acts 24:15. so the ones marked for death are just outright disaproved by Jehovah for whatever his reasons are and ones in favor of the system of Satan must be simply opposed to Christ kingdom. the agenda of the demons is to turn humans against Jehovah. ‘those calling on his name will be saved’.
              those marked obviously are not drawing close to know Jehovah.

            • Vasilios Agio

              That’s how I understand it

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely. If Jehovah gave his son for us, then their must be a reason, and if we are that reason, then surely he will show us a way out. Jesus said that if we only forgive those that we love, of what value is it? We must forgive those that sin against us also. Therefore surely that same sentiment belongs to and is from, Jehovah through Jesus as the ransom. We should take heart in hope hope for us and to be shown the way out.. The bible said that we should render to Caesar, that which is Caesar”s and to God, that which is God’s. Does it not make sense therefore that Jehovah will show us what is his?

              Robert made a remark the other day that accepting a microchip from the state would be OK, but clearly making an offering to them would not. It would be worth the while for this thought to be expanded on to give us insight, because I for one, wonder where we should draw a line….in other words, examples of what constitutes worship and aliegence and what does not. For example, we accept the tether of a passport, so why not a microchip? But what about ‘no microchip, no money, no health care.’? Thus, what is worship? What is aliegence and how is it defined? Even more difficult, what is ‘acceptable’? Or does it all come down to conscience? Because conscience is fluid as to character. E.g. Watchtower verses the party card in Malawi and Mexico.

            • The Raven

              Burt quote:
              “We should take heart in hope hope for us and to be shown the way out.. The bible said that we should render to Caesar, that which is Caesar”s and to God, that which is God’s. Does it not make sense therefore that Jehovah will show us what is his?”

              Excellent point IMHO.

            • Vas vegan Rants

              You have spoken a great point . This is some very serious stuff , satan and his trickery could easily fool even those mines . Even those who think they are wise may fall into this pit . He’s gonna try everything so that when Jesus does truly return he won’t have any worshippers and without worshippers how can u claim to be a king . I think brother Robert should address this issue . As you mention , at what point do we draw the line . Id rather starve to death than worship the beast , at least this way you get a chance . A chip one day then what’s next . Like lobster being slowly being brought to the boil and it falls asleep eventually and feels no pain as it dies so too satan can boil us slowest without recognising it . He fooled our perfect anslcestry so what chance do we have . This is what worries me about the watchtower znd as it is stated in isiaiah that they feel they have made s covenant with death and that the flood waters will not affect them but day and night it will . We have to be very careful . Thx for bringing this point up coz I was asleep on this one

            • the mark is the support of Satan’s system and the refusal of Christ kingdom

            • Joseph S.

              Could this be it? Looking like it…….

              https://youtu.be/7SPOVJi3H6g

              Spooky scary

          • Vasilios Agio

            Im buying huge bags of rice lol . Can live of rice I hope but Faith I said better . It is a worry . We all have family member who will fall to satan . what a disaster

        • Lev

          Привет Юрий! У меня всё ОК. Нам бояться нечего,если с нами Тот, кто может спасти от смерти вечной. Что там у тебя за “тёрки” с любящими братьями? Ты потерял меня? Моё “мыло”? Или недосуг? Привет “Родной”,береги её как самого себя! Ваш Лев.

          • Yuri Fisher

            Привет Лев
            Рад что у тебя всё в порядке. У меня тоже хорошо. Конечно же я не доволен тем что происходит с обществом СБ. Но я думаю что скоро Иегова и Иисус очистят её и мы будем поклоняться Богу в истине. Сегодня всё больше и больше СИ уходят в сторону. От истинного поклонения ничего не осталось. Только тупое поклонение организации. Иегова обязательно вмешается и очистит СБ от человека беззакония.
            Как вы там. Я надеюсь мы увидимся в новом чистом мире.

            • Lev

              Дорогой ,вы ушли из Матери- организации или остаётесь пока в “духовном раю”блудницы? (Исаия 1:21) У нас В России творится то, что полгода назад представить невозможно было в кошмарном сне. Весь Управленческий Центр сбежал в Евросоюз под крыло старушки Меркель. Сотни старейшин со своими семьями подались кто в Беларусь, кто в США, кто в Европу. Многие с завистью смотрят им вслед, но из-за бедности не могут последовать за паническим бегством крыс с тонущего корабля под гордым названием “единственно истинная! А ведь они 25 лет убеждали своих овец:”Мы для вас-укрытие от зноя и дождя!” Проповедь “от двери к двери” остановилась, все разделились по группам 10-12 человек ,скрываясь по квартирам, многие отказываются предоставлять “старам” своё жильё для “встреч” .Переоформленное на иностранные юридические лица Залы Царства срочно продаются всем желающим и становятся пивными барами, торговыми центрами, богослужебными культовыми зданиями другие религий( Это прямое указание Верного Раба от 11 07 2017.Много братьев “прозревают” ,видя это безбожное поведение “Вавилонской Блудницы”. Есть случаи самоубийств от таких “прозрений” среди старейшин. Но многие, зомбированные .Рабовладельцем из Уорвика ,ещё больше наращивают истерию “богоизбранности” ,хотя и уповают ещё ЕСПЧ ,ГОСДЕП США и прочих “сильных МИРА сего, что они защитят СИ. Я думаю, что ты скоро увидишь сам наплыв “русских братьев” у себя.Кстати, при кульминации преследования пути “Истины” в первом веке
              Христос никуда не сбежал и не покинул своих овец :Он велел их отпустить , ,а сам отдал за них свою жизнь! (Иоанна 18:8-9) Лев.

            • Charles

              Мне кажется что зря бегут за границу. Скоро то же самое произоидеть по всей земле. Лично я с нетерпением ожидаю 23 сентября, когда могло бы начатся исполнение последных три с половиной года. Многие на интернете и ютубе в ожидании этого числа. мненя правда расходятся что именно догда произойдет.

            • Richard Long

              Charles Lev • 23 minutes ago

              It seems to me that they are running abroad for nothing. Soon the same will happen all over the earth. Personally, I look forward to September 23, when the last three and a half years might begin to be executed. Many on the Internet and YouTube in anticipation of this number. I really do not agree with what exactly will happen

            • Lev

              Привет Ян! Беда Свидетелей в том, что они во всех своих бедах винят сатану и его земных слуг-правителей. А истина скрыта от них, хотя она -на виду-сам Бог пытается(уже в который раз!) обратить непокорный народ, который опять впал в идолопоклонство, чтобы он РАСКАЯЛСЯ и ПЕРЕСТАЛ ГРЕШИТЬ! Крысам нигде не скрыться от КРЫСОЛОВА :Иеремия 42:13-19. Исаия 30:9-18, Амос 9:2-4. А предсказания свои прекрати- не будь как СИ,которые говорят, что они- послы вместо!!! Христа!!!- 1Коринф 5;20. Не обижайся- с любовью во Христе- твой Лев (Матф. 18:15-16)

            • Richard Long

              Lev Yuri Fisher • 2 hours ago

              Dear, have you left the Mother-Organization, or are you staying in the “spiritual paradise” of a harlot? (Isaiah 1:21) In Russia, what is happening half a year ago was impossible to imagine in a nightmare. The entire Management Center fled to the European Union under the wing of the old lady Merkel. Hundreds of elders with their families moved to Belarus, who in the US, who to Europe. Many people look after them with envy, but because of poverty they can not follow the panic flight of rats from a sinking ship under the proud name of “the only true!” But they have been persuading their sheep for 25 years: “We are shelter from the heat and rain!” The preaching “door to door” stopped, everyone divided into groups of 10-12 people, hiding in the apartments, many refuse to provide “old” their homes for “meetings.” Reformed to foreign legal entities Kingdom Halls are urgently sold to all comers and become beer bars , Trade (This is the direct instruction of the True Slave from 11 07 2017. Many brothers “see through” seeing this godless behavior of the “Babylonian Whore.” There are cases of suicides from such “insights” among the elders, but many who are zombie. The robber owner From Warwick, further increase the hysteria of “God’s chosen”, although the ECHR, the US STATE DEPARTMENT and other “strong WORDS of this, that they will protect the SI, hope even more.” I think that you will soon see the influx of “Russian brothers” at yourselves. Culminating in the persecution of the path of “Truth” in ervom century
              Christ did not escape anywhere and did not leave his sheep: He told them to let go, and he gave his life for them! (John 18: 8-9) The Lion.

            • Yuri Fisher

              Да очень печально видеть развал организации СИ. Эта организация отслужила свой срок. Когда то Иегова пользовался ею для провозглашения своего имени. СИ выполнили роль которую им дал Иегова. Но со временем СИ стали погрязать в коррупцию. И сейчас Иегова отворачивается от руководства. Мы ожидаем гонения по всему миру. После 3 мировой войны организация перестанет существовать. Останутся только верные Иегове. У нас тут отворачивается 3 мировая война. Рядом с нами идут бои в Сирии. Скоро начнётся война в Ливане. Газа тоже будет атаковать Израиль. Я думаю что СИ в Израиле поведут себя также как в России. Предательство и обман будут очень сильными. Берегите себя в истинной вере. Я лично прошёл в прошлом некоторые испытания. Но главное выдержать до конца. Без организации. Она мне сейчас не нужна. Но мне нужен дух Иегова.

              Спасибо за правдивую информацию.

            • Richard Long

              Yuri Fisher Lev • 14 hours ago
              Hello Leo
              Glad you’re all right. I’m fine too. Of course, I’m not happy with what is happening with the Security Council. But I think that soon Jehovah and Jesus will purify it and we will worship God in truth. Today, more and more SI are sidetracked. There is nothing left of true worship. Only blunt worship of the organization. Jehovah will necessarily intervene and purify the SSS from the person of lawlessness.
              How are you there. I hope we will see each other in a new, pure world.

          • Richard Long

            Lev Yuri Fisher • 14 hours ago

            Hello Yuri! I’m ok. We are not to be afraid, if with us is He who can save us from eternal death. What do you have for “graters” with loving brothers? You lost me? My “soap”? Or not enough? Hello “Native,” take care of it as yourself! Your Lion

      • wheres Alex1914 been?

      • Lev

        Hello Richard Long! Peace to you. I’m fine, I’m not hiding in the underground as the rest of the brothers did. I did not escape abroad as the Witnesses Management Center in Estonia. I do not ask for political asylum in the countries of Western Europe and the United States as hundreds of elders with their families. All of them, as worthless and hired shepherds, threw the poor flock at the mercy of the totalitarian regime. I am doing what Christ has done to me to bring meek people to Him-to receive Heavenly Spiritual Bread. Thank you for remembering me! Ask, do not be shy, while you can be your brother in Christ Lev

        • Hello Lev. I have a question. You said the Witnesses Management Center in Estonia escaped abroad. First, what is the Witnesses Management Center; and 2nd, why would Estonians feel the need to flee, since they are not under the Russian ban?

          • Lev

            Robert, hello! I’m glad to hear you. Sorry for the bad translation. The Russian Branch has left for Estonia. And tomorrow in St. Petersburg the court will be held on the ban “Translation of the New World” Lev.

            • Joseph Stephan
            • Lev

              My dear ! Believe me, I really appreciate your prayers for us! No doubt, you are disciples of Christ if -Mathew 5: 3-11. I assure you that I do not think I’m tired or give up-this is the destiny of traitors. And only those who WIN and WINS to the END will be saved. With love in Christ to you, Lev.

            • The Raven

              If the numbers are to be believed it appears to me you are not only fighting a government who can ban and imprison you are fighting a religious institution of which 70% of Russians claim to be followers . That, in my opinion makes this situation much more dangerous. For other religious leaders to openly condemn this ban is interesting as it places them too in opposition to the majority. Please be very careful in how you navigate those waters, Lev. You have been in our thoughts and we watch and pray for all of you.

            • John 3:16

              Have you seen the movie “The Girl With the Purple Triangle”? I just watched it the other night. This woman’s faith is remarkable given what she was faced with. No doubt Jehovah was looking after those girls.

              https://youtu.be/951Io9Y0cyk

              This one is also very uplifting

              https://youtu.be/lykM5ePGPpc

            • The Raven

              Yes. I think Lev and those in Russia need to be very careful about how to deal with this. Since the Orthodox church is supported by a large portion of the population we know how wild things can get when religious fanatics press authorities to their will.

            • John 3:16

              Absolutely. It will be a true test of faith. He is a very brave man and I know he’s in all our prayers.

            • Lev

              In fact, I am a very timid person. But my son-in-law (Karen) -on was not afraid to talk about Jehovah in the markets in Egypt, in the villages in Turkey, for this the Islamists wanted to stone him, but he managed to escape … But he – 100% of the zombie JW…

            • The Raven

              A battle within a battle and few are the ones seeing and understanding the full scope.

            • Lev

              Bull’s-eye! Not for nothing now Orthodoxy zombies the Russian population by the fact that the main threat to the planet Earth is the Western Civilization with its “democracy of Sodom and Gomorrah”, which, led by the US, wants to wipe out Russia -Mother-“The Foot of the Lord’s Feet.” Most appeasing to the very same political establishment.

            • The Raven

              Exactly, Lev. That’s why I urge caution in these very affairs. There are many levels of deceit and treachery when dealing with ideologies. We have seen this before. But this time, that appeasement will explode in their faces near the end.

            • Lev

              Dear The Raven! In Russia, there are 70% of Orthodox believers! This is the myth of sociologists! Real-1% -2%. The rest in the heads-porridge, a mixture of paganism, magic, acceptance, astrology and patriotism. And all this is drunk with a fatty sauce of God’s chosen Orthodoxy as the worship of the relics of the dead. In general, for these 70%, the Bible is not authority! Therefore, I believe that the God of Russia is the Military Power. This is the true religion of Russia.

            • The Raven

              That’s interesting. You say this is basically a convenient idea for the political establishment to get people in line? That is a holdover from their days as Soviets, I think. Understandable since the German defeat. I don’t think any of them actually follow the bible either. But their professed religion is what makes this a degree higher than just an atheistic view as in the past.

            • The Raven

              Much the same can be said for the US, I might add. They profess to be Christians but prove false to it’s teachings. They too claim to place God above all but readily line up for bombing the middle east into oblivion. It is not hard to see their true natures. Wrapped in a flag and holding the bible.

            • Sometimes the bad translation makes for some fun reading. Thanks ;~)

            • Lev

              Hi Robert! I agree with you, unless this leads to World War III. Tell me, please, why poor brothers from Russia who have an income of 40,000 rubles a month get into debt, buy a ticket to New York for 100,000 rubles to see Warwick with one eye. They will return to their homeland, then live six months on the grass. But to catch on themselves the admiring glances of brothers and sisters, and to reassure oneself that “now life has not been spent in vain!” Do you have that, New Mecca drew?

            • The Raven

              Like the Hajj and the Kaaba? lol! Good analogy. I’m sure that’s true of some jws but those here don’t see it that way.
              https://e-watchman.com/jehovah-turned-watchtower/

            • The Raven

              I thought this was interesting.

              http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2297
              On 12 May, a military conscription office in the Chuvash Republic refused to give Avel Lukin, an 18-year-old Jehovah’s Witness conscientious objector from Shumerlya, permission to perform alternative civilian service instead of being conscripted into the military (see F18News 26 May 2017 http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2282). Shumerlya District Court rejected Lukin’s appeal on 4 July, but Jehovah’s Witnesses say that he will continue to challenge the decision.

              Lukin’s call-up notice, seen by Forum 18, directly links the refusal to allow him to carry out alternative service to the Supreme Court’s ruling that the Administrative Centre is an “extremist organisation”. Conscientious objector Lukin was ordered to do military service in Russia’s nuclear-armed Strategic Missile Forces, his fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses stated on 6 July.

              “Clearly, the Russian government itself does not believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are ‘extremist’!”, European Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses spokesman Yaroslav Sivulsky commented. “Otherwise, would an ‘extremist’ be sent to serve in the Strategic Missile Forces?”

            • Lev

              The professional qualities of members of the conscription commission leave much to be desired! Especially in the provinces. I would not be surprised if this commissioner misses a member of IGIL in Russia’s missile shield! Most likely, he already filed a report on “service inconsistency.” We also had another case: one brother demanded an “alternative” service for so long that he was sent for 10,000 kilimeters from his home in the Arctic Circle. He returned after 2 years with vitamin deficiency in the whole face. But, as young brothers looked at him with envy!

            • The Raven

              They’re banning the JWs bible as well?

            • Lev

              Today it will be known. I think the outcome has been predetermined for a long time.

            • The Raven

              I think you are right. I saw this article concerning the Catholic response to the issue and wonder if they too will find themselves in trouble.
              JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BAN: RUSSIAN CATHOLICS CONDEMN OUTLAWING OF CHRISTIAN GROUP
              http://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnesses-ban-russia-catholic-593082

            • Lev

              On June 29, 2017, the Alma-Ata court fined the Christian Center of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Kazakhstan (hereinafter – the Center)
              And suspended all his activities for three months. So for the New Year, wait for a gift from President Nazarbayev! Next Belorus? Apparently, yes. It is necessary to keep an example from the elder brother!

            • The Raven

              That’s what I thought was going to happen as this progresses. The former satellites will follow suit. We all watch and wait to see how the wto handles this. Thank you Lev.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I would think that if there is anyone astute in the Catholic Church, they will be considering their own lot in the times to come. Certainly the writing on the wall is there and there is nothing to say that those affiliated to Christendom won’t feel as badly at their leaders too. The Catholics have the blood of millions of innocents on their hands, and the accounts through the ages are just too terrible to read and as celibacy crept in, it only became yet more cruel to not read!. Even during the last war and right the way up to the 1970s ( and beyond no doubt) there was no restraint to their cruelty, worst of all was their treatment of unmarried mothers in the laundry hostels in Ireland, the outcome of which is still keenly felt to this day. Though vengeance belongs to Jehovah, I have little doubt myself who he will employ to wreak it, just as he used the Romans and Babylonians. I must admit, it would be nice if Jehovah would let me loose in the Vatican library. I would be there for centuries, after which it would be nice to move on to the British library, which of course I would rename as Burt’s Library.

            • The Raven

              I agree. I thought it a bit self serving to condemn the Russian court for banning the JWs but dangerous to oppose it. Since they are a small minority they too can be steamrolled by the courts if the Orthodox leaders demand it. It’s an interesting dynamic at work there, to say the least. I am keenly interested in what they do as this strange work proceeds. It gives us a window into what to expect from the world’s religious leaders come the tribulation. The behavior of the wto was very disappointing.
              I’d be right there with you in those vaults and secret libraries…after I dig around in the Smithsonian and the US patent office basement for a while.
              Burt’s library has a nice ring to it.

            • The Raven

              There’s something else going on with them that makes me wonder if the deck has been stacked for the coming conflagration. They have a pope in the attic and one who can’t keep his mouth shut. That hasn’t happened in nearly 600 years. This article speaks about some of the turmoil Benedict had to deal with but I strongly suspect that he would not be in agreement to accepting major changes in policy. Francis is. How far that goes remains to be seen.
              http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25121121

            • Lev

              Hearings on the case of the ban “Translation of the New World” moved to 09 09 2017

            • Lev

              Hello Raven! That’s the end of the “false religion”! “Transformation of the New World” is recognized as extremist! Yesterday in St. Petersburg Jehovah demanded a second time to correct the people who wear his Holy Name! Here is the court’s decision: 21:50 Dmitry Y. Grishin, judge of the Vyborg City Court, candidate of legal science, former head of the Civil Law Department of the Leningrad University. A.S. Pushkin, announces the decision: the application of the Leningrad-Finland transport prosecutor – to satisfy. To recognize the “Holy Scripture – Translation of the New World” as extremist material, to recognize as extremist materials the brochure “The Bible and its main theme”, “Science instead of the Bible?” And “How to improve health. 5 simple rules. ” All literature is confiscated. Appeal time is 30 days. Jehovah truly longsuffering and merciful God!

        • Richard Long

          Lev, my dear courageous brother, may you arrive safely on the other side of these trials, or find peace in your sufferings if you do not. My thoughts and prayers go with you!

    • Peaceful Waters

      Yes, and the sad part is that they betray us believing they are doing Jehovah’s will. Or at least I like to believe that… that most are honest hearted just being misled. I know not all are, like you said, false brothers. The wolves (although wolves don’t deserve that bad rap). Betrayal is heart breaking. May Jehovah take good care of our hearts in the times ahead.

      • Yuri Fisher

        Jehovah already takes good care of our hearts and minds by providing sites like this. I do know that this site is from Jehovah and Jesus. Here we review the real spiritual help by brother King an also others who write comments. I do not know where would I be without this site. Probably completely devastated. But this site and book by Robert King really revived me spiritually. Now I know what to do and what to believe. I do not rely on WT literature any more. I read the minimum and no more. I hope one day we will see the WT gone. Just like Jewish leaders were gone after 70 CE.
        Blessings to you from Jehovah.

        • Vasilios Agio

          Nice comment brother . Regarding the watchtower and Brother Robert enlightening us I see it this way . In 607 bce but according to historians this is not the correct date but Jehovah allowed the temple to fall and before it was trampled he gave them much warnings by his prophets and they took no note and so the temple was distorted just as it will be in the future and maybe Robert is being used by Jehovah to give warnings . They also won’t listen . They are hiding behind a lie , a delusion . Too proud to repent . To proud to listen to other anointed men in gods org . This is a very worldly way to run a theocratic organisation .

          • Yuri Fisher

            They will have to listen to Jehovah at the end. One way or another. But the outcome for those who stubborn will be bad.

            Thank you for your comments and future everlasting life to you.

  • Vasilios Agio

    Thankyou for this article brother Robert it’s a good one , this is a long shot but it crossed my mind that maybe brothers handing brothers over to death might mean that they are shunning brothers to a point that they lose faith and never go back or rebuild a relationship with jehovahs and therefore lose out on a second chance of eternal life . I know this is a sudden off the cuff thought but I wished to share it . I am aware that given over to death has much to do with the authorities and being put to death because of our faith but it may also mean brothers stumbling brothers and maybe even regarding the 1914 hoax . If u don’t accept it your out and if your out and not everyone has the courage or the strength to endure and keep there relationship with Jehovah then Satan pulls u back into his shiny world . Brother handing brother over to death , I’m trying to see this from a diff angle I may be wrong . It was one of those thoughts that your not sure you should share it but I did .

    • Bklyn Kevin

      More food fore thought.
      Before the Day of Jehovah’s Anger
      Excerpt:
      “The hour of judgment” results in the separation of mankind into two distinct camps. That is symbolized at Revelation 14:15: “Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: ‘Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.’ And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.” Read more>
      https://e-watchman.com/day-jehovahs-anger/

      • Vasilios Agio

        Baptism by fire . It’s wonderful to know that Jehovah reads the heart and those seeking him will be saved , another loving provision from our heavenly father . Something I wasn’t taught as a witness . I tell you I’m learning a lot here . I can assure you kind brother that There’dorsnt exist a watchtower or awake that can give me insight and scriptural understanding such a this forum . I would like to add that I was reading the four horsemen watchtower and I nearly laughed , not at the scriptures or the theme but the interpretation of prophecy is so down played I just couldn’t believe that they wrote such things . I don’t know anyone that has suffered anyth they mention . Is it only Ethiopia that suffers famine and the rest of us are excluded . I truly feel that when the four horsemen gallop we are going to be in for a treat and everyone will know it . Anyway sorry to go off track thankyou for your comment .

    • Huldah

      I’ve had the same thought. Very logical.
      Think of this.
      If a brother should kill you literally, he only removes you from this life, but the resurrection fixes that easily.
      If a brother misleads someone completely out of the truth, he murders him forever. Which is worse. This is why the pharisees were so reprehensible and merited Gehenna.
      Notice Jesus’ words
      Matt. 23:15
      15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!+ because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte,* and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na* twice as much so as yourselves.

      Gehenna not sheol.

      • Vasilios Agio

        Brilliant scriptual illustration of exactly what may happen according to Jesus words to the apostles about the end times , thanks for sharing this .

        • Huldah

          Thanks Vasilios.
          Glad you are here. You’ve already shared several great insights. It’s clear you have much to offer to our little “congregation”.

          • Vasilios Agio

            Many thanks to you That’s a very heart warming comment and may I say that I’m here to learn . I don’t have much to offer unfortunately but I’m humbled in that I truly feel genuine love of a brothership here and like many of you I hope I can be one who endures to the end for the love of our great loving father Jehovah to whom we must forever praise for the loving provision of the gift of life . Thankyou once again for your kind and loving words of welcome .

    • this thought ive had also at times could be the case

      “crossed my mind that maybe brothers handing brothers over to death might mean that they are shunning brothers to a point that they lose faith and never go back or rebuild a relationship with jehovahs and therefore lose out on a second chance of eternal life”

      • Vasilios Agio

        I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to post that thought but it seems others have felt this also so maybe there is something in this . Thanks for sharing this brother .

  • “Even now, before the outbreak of the great tribulation” – WT Wednesday, May 31, 2017

    “tell us…what will be the sign of your presence”
    “great tribulation”
    “this generation will by no means pass away”
    “a great crowd”
    “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,”

    GB – ‘but the generation is just everybody from one dying off generation on an on to the next before the tribulation even starts.’

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b1de05478c5ac8a1c0b6d6bd83f03edcbc27ba54316b96d45b70810e464dbf60.jpg

    stupid prophet much? Eze 13:3

    ” Why then does the Watchtower in effect re-translate the NWT specifically for this text —giving the casual reader the impression that the verse is quoted whole from the NWT?”

    because the Watchtower MOL has falsely thought JW’s an impression, that they are living in a “spiritual paradise”. https://jehovah-is-king.com/paradise/

    ” But what will happen during the hour of the authority of darkness?”

    “Nevertheless, the magic-practicing priests of Egypt proceeded to do the same thing with their secret arts; so that Pharaoh’s heart continued to be obstinate,” ~ Ex 7:22 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4AFqfOhOrm8

    Luke 21:11 “and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.” Rev 12:9 Rev 11:6
    Matt 24:11

  • Vasilios Agio

    I don’t wish to stir any controversy about a war erupting . I myself believe something is brewing within all the nations but a scripture comes to mind whereby it mention that in the last days it will be as in Noah’s day women given into marriage etc , I think everyone is aware of how the scripture goes but from my understanding it kind off tells me that the world will still be a going concern as in Noah’s day everything was fine and no one took note of the warning and to me this doesn’t denote a war . Who is going to marry whilst in a holacaust . And in Noah’s day the door was shut and then the rain started . So I’m in two minds with this and I would apreciate any thoughts regarding a huge nuclear war . Maybe I need to learn more about this .

    • Bklyn Kevin

      How is the parousia like the days of Noah?.
      Excerpt:
      In order to understand what Jesus really meant it is necessary to consider what he said in the 17th chapter of Luke. Jesus actually spoke about his presence being like the days of Noah on more than one occasion, using slightly different phrasing, which allows us to compare and get a better understanding.

      At Luke 17:26-30 Jesus compared his presence, not only to the days of Noah, but also to the day that Lot fled Sodom. Here is what the Lord stated: “Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.”
      Read more>https://e-watchman.com/parousia-like-days-noah/

      Read a lot more>
      Search results for: Noah, https://e-watchman.com/?s=Noah

      • Vasilios Agio

        Yes I’m slowely understanding this now . I must apologise for my lack of knoweledge as I don’t think I’m up to scratch on the scriptures compared to most of the brothers and sisters here . So basically your saying that when Christ rules war will break out suddenly . Is that correct .

        • Richard Long

          The onset of Christ’s rule forces Satan to launch his endgame strategy. Ousted from heaven, he simply has no other choice unless he wants to submit to Christ’s rule, which he wont.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Lack of knowledge is not the issue so much as is lack of faith. No need to apologise for not knowing! Join the club. None of us can direct our own footsteps, or begin to understand, let alone say that we know with certainty.

          • Beverly kenyon

            True.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Yes, but there Is much more to it then that.

          The Devil Has Come Down to You.
          Excerpt:
          But the inevitable, shockingly swift collapse of the leading nations of the world will merely be the visible manifestation of something considerably more far-reaching and profound; and that is, the epic-ending eviction of Satan the Devil and all his wicked angels from Jehovah’s heavenly court in advance of their being locked away for a thousand years and then permanently destroyed. After all, empires and civilizations come and go, but the overthrow of Satan is monumental.

          Their long-overdue expulsion from heaven’s heights will come about as a result of the long-prayed-for kingdom of Christ ultimately ascending to power. The overthrow of Satan’s evil empire, symbolized in the Apocalypse as a fiery seven-headed dragon, will initiate a prophetic period known variously in the Scriptures as “the time of the end”, “the final part of the days”, the “conclusion of a system of things”, the “last days”, Satan’s “short period of time” and the “hour of test.” Read more>
          https://e-watchman.com/devil-come/

          After the Tribulation in Those Days.
          Excerpt:
          In his prophecy of the conclusion Jesus said the tribulation would be followed by the sun becoming dark and the moon not giving its light and men becoming faint with fear. That same symbolism is employed in the 6th chapter of Revelation with the opening of the sixth seal. It is apparent that the crashing of mountains and falling stars is meant to symbolize the collapse of the political and economic system. That is why the terrified citizenry are depicted as hiding in caves and holes in the earth, begging the mountains to “fall over us” to protect them from Jehovah’s wrath.

          In view the fact that Jesus said the tribulation would be cut short on account of the chosen ones, otherwise no flesh would be saved, indicates that the tribulation is an existential crisis for all humanity, not merely the destruction of false religion. Read more>

          What does it mean that the tribulation is cut short?

          That the tribulation does not immediately lead into Armageddon is evident from the fact that Jesus referred to events occurring “immediately after the tribulation in those days.” Its being cut short means that the nations will be allowed to recover momentarily. That is what is symbolized by the beast crawling out of the abyss, by the mortally wounded head that miraculously revives. In the aftermath of the tribulation Revelation depicts the angels holding back the four winds of destruction. Why? In order that the sealing of the chosen ones may be finished. Jesus indicated as much when he said after the tribulation the great trumpet will sound and the chosen ones will be gathered.
          https://e-watchman.com/after-the-tribulation-in-those-days/

      • The Raven

        Thank you Kevin. This pretty much spells out the situation we will have.

        Here is a VERY important point Robert stresses:

        “Sure, people were preoccupied before, doing all the things people do, but when Noah entered the ark the hand of God closed the vessel’s massive door – that was it.

        Although, it is noteworthy that the downpour did not commence for a week after the door was closed, the point is, there was no salvation possible for anyone outside the ark when the door was closed.

        What I have been trying to get across – with little success – is that, the coming of Christ simultaneously begins the time of the end and concludes the gospel era. And if a person has not come into an approved relationship with Christ at that time then there is no further opportunity to do so.”

        • Huldah

          Good summary but here’s my question.
          If “the door is closed” when the presence starts, how is it that there is still an opportunity to choose to take the mark or not?

          Ex.
          The world is partying(Noahs day) up until the US collapses.

          Deluded distraction is no longer possible. Baaad times.

          Door is closed, presence starts.

          HOG judged

          8th king arises.

          THE MARK

          People are judged based on whether or not they accept the mark.
          BUT WAIT!
          They have already been locked out of the ark so does it really matter if they choose the mark or not?

          Do we choose the mark before the presence starts?

          Im a fiercely logical person so I’m immensely frustrated with this breech of logic, though I trnd to agree with Robert.
          Forgive my bit of snarkiness in this respect.

          I am very interested in an explanation.

          • Arvid Fløysand

            The questions you rise are very good…and i agree..and brother Vasilios who,in a humble way, raised questions in first place about this .

            Maybe we should take one little “spoon” of this “bowl” of “soup”at time?
            If we start of with the word tribulation.
            What is it?
            Jesus said the days of Noah and the days of Lot in Sodom .He did not say the very last day.
            I belive He ment like those days…a period of time during those days/years…that is to likend with a tribulation…and that period ended just like Armageddon will do..with a total destruction.The day Noah went into the ark and the our Lot went out of Sodom was the end of tribulation …no return and no one else could be saved.
            An interesting thing about these days is that we know for sure that the condisions where very bad..murder and imorality etc…but we also know that people in both periods seems to be used to it…so much that it was considered normal.
            It is obvious that a time of tribulation can be looked at in two different ways of people living in the same periode.
            What about us?are we able to “see” when the Son of man arrives and the great tribulation starts?

            It looks like people living in those days did not care but Jehovahs people did..they suffered about it for a long time…2Peter 2:7,8 “And He rescued righteous Lot,who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people – for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling amoung them.”
            It sayes “day after day”…so over a period of time..this is not only about the very last day when the angels came to rescue and destroy.
            And we know the same goes for all righteous and faithful people Hebrew 11:13-16

            Noah and his family did not take the “mark” of those days and was declared clean in the end of those days and could enter the ark.
            Lot an his two daugthers did not take the “mark” of those days and was chosen by angels to leave,but Lots wife “took the mark” .

            The good thing thou is that we can compare those two events with two other similar events that gives us a lot more detals about endtime,presence,mark,tribulation and destruction.
            That is the two destructions of Jerusalem.:-)

            • Huldah

              Thanks Arvid for your insights.
              It is an interesting point that both destructions of the temple were proceeded with an earlier event that indicated a change to the political climate but not a destruction immediately.

              607 BCE
              Happened in stages
              First captives taken to Babylon with Ezekiel.

              2nd Elite captives taken with Daniel

              3rd destruction of Judah and temple after Jeremiahs prophesying there.

              It appears there was an attitude of normalcy even after the first captives were taken as the prophets argued with Jeremiah that no destruction was coming.

              70 CE

              68 CE Cestius Gallus laid seige but withdrew early and left.

              Time of normalcy followed Jews celebrated while christians fled.
              Interesting what Rev. Says here.13:3

              I saw that one of the heads of the beast seemed wounded beyond recovery—but the fatal wound was healed! The whole world marveled at this miracle and gave allegiance to the beast. 4They worshiped the dragon for giving the beast such power, and they also worshiped the beast. “Who is as great as the beast?” they exclaimed. “Who is able to fight against him

              Maybe they go back to marrying and normal life then for a while.

              That being said.

              I still feel strongly that we are living in the “Noah” times now though.

              People are already accepting a completely debased morality and the righteous are already suffering greatly bemoaning the debased system.

              I’m beginning to believe that just as Judas had developed a betrayers heart long before he actually betrayed Jesus, those who will take the mark will already have developed a betrayer’s heart at the start of Christ’s presence. The mark will only be the outward manifestation if that making them clearly marked for destruction.
              I do firmly believe that no one will pass the test who has not already seriously flexed and trained their spiritual muscles before Christ’s presence begins, but that means different things for different ones.

              So really in that sense ones will not be able to build a faith during the intervening period between the start of Christ’s presence and the test involving the mark of the beast.

              Its good to take into account also that the 10 plagues and the Red Sea were tests of Pharoahs haughtiness, but surely Jehovah knew his heart and was only putting hooks in his jaws to draw him out and demonstrate his obstinance for all to see.

              1cor3

              dy laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

            • Burt Reynolds

              But the tribulation is not the end. It is the beginning of the end. Churchill put it well…’ This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end, but it is perhaps the end of the beginning.’ Clearly sodom was under judgement for a long period of time. It’s sins piled up to heaven. So also the days of Noah where Jehovah said he regretted making man. Both instances suggest prior thought and decision making. But the scripture above suggests some coming out of that tribulation and that thus, perhaps as an act of mercy, given time, as were the both the people of sodom and of Noah’s day. I thought the tribulation as a time of test. Does not the decision come later when the beast is slaughtered? Maybe I’ve got my prophesies back to front. I should stay with simple.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Both you and Churchill are right…when tribulation begins..the end is near 🙂

          • The Raven

            https://e-watchman.com/grand-instructor/
            Excerpt:
            “Those who will come out of the tribulation are described in the seventh chapter of Revelation as having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. In other words, they have taken a certain course prior to the tribulation; namely; washing their robes, signifying that their faith in Christ has made them clean in God’s eyes. And yes, God’s spirit will have been instrumental in leading them to that point and beyond.”

            A better question to ask is ” who is given the choice of the mark”?
            The opportunity for humanity is gone once this begins. Then attention turns to God’s people.
            It is a test for Jehovah’s people.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Is that the case though? Huldah has a point. Dirty clothes going into a washing machine go in dirty, but due to the tribulation inside the washing machine come out clean. Your scripture says, ‘those that come out of the tribulation’. This does not describe their state as they go in. According to the wording of the bible, it does not exclude all conditions going in, but the condition coming out. This allows, according to the bible, an assumption that some of those going in May wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb, simple because it says that ‘those who come out…’, have done so. Now if those coming out have washed their clothes, then it is only those who have, that come out. The bible gives no direction as to who will survive, washed or not, only of those who do survive , will have washed their clothes. It suggests that an event occurred within the process and not before. In terms of semantics, I see no reference to the condition of those going in only those coming out. Further, I am not certain myself of the ‘class’ of people going in to the tribulation that the scripture refers to, but as for those going in, none of us are of a condition in which we can boast that we have washed our clothes thus, no matter how much we hope. We are some of us called and even of those, many will not be chosen. But are we not to be tested during that time, thus achieving a show of loyalty? I don’t know for sure, I’m just suggesting a clarification on what the scripture actually says, and I don’t suppose I am well placed to do so.

            • The Raven

              Consider the goal, to get the anointed sealed and to preserve a great crowd, possibly many millions more than the WTO even knows about.

              In summary the best way I can describe this is thus: The door shutting does not condemn the non believers entirely. It looks like it is just a way of “choosing the team” that will ultimately be tested. That team had to be right with Jehovah before the test.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I was under the impression from what I have learnt here is that the fall of the watchtower and subsequent abandonment of the congregants was at that point, an issue of faith for the witnesses….not to mention those who do not even know they have a choice at this time… Though many are rightly disposed, there may be some that will be unable to discern the truth until that point arrives. Were this not the case, the issue to get out of her my people, would be without merit, and a closed case. No chance for redemption as you point out. Thus there appears to be a mixture of faithful and faithless, blind yet rightly disposed, and blind, of whom it is said ‘my people like it that way.’ The tribulation is surely a sifting and of judgement it is true, but it would not be judgement if those going through were already right with Jehovah, but a very much foregone conclusion. Likewise, it would not be a judgement, but, critically, a ‘condemnation’ if all those not right with Jehovah at that time were already doomed, ergo, condemned. Thus the use of the word judgement would be misleading. Judgement is what both exonerates the innocent, and Condemns the guilty and Jehovah exonerates his name through this process. How else would the guilty be shown for what they are and understand the difference otherwise and the righteous see and understand the guilty? We are all to be tested individually, thus both the innocent and the guilty must witness that, just as Jesus was publically displayed, hung, as a thing dishonoured. He did not pass the test until his last breath when he said ‘it is accomplished.’ But personally, I’m not right by Jehovah, nor will I ever be until I am tested. I am still dependant on the sacrifice of Jesus, and to be that, we have to be willing to die for that belief. I am not sure this test will come before the tribulation….at least I cannot see it from the bible. I’m not sure of myself either, so I just go along with the bible it until I see a greater biblical understanding That sets my reasoning correctly. And I have not seen that yet. Perhaps if there is, maybe someone will show it to me so I can practice my Boreanship.

            • The Raven

              There is no test before tribulation. The truth will have been preached to Jehovahs satisfaction and then the tribulation starts. The only purpose for Jehovah to require we have the right condition of heart and faith is so that He can seal the anointed and present us as proof that His people remained faithful. The actual test is the mark which comes afterwards during the reign of the eighth king.
              I would even venture to say that MOST here are probably known to Him. Remember what he said about not being surprised at who makes it and who doesn’t?
              I take that literally.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The Time of the End.
              Excerpt:
              What exactly is the “test” that Jesus foretold will come upon the whole world? The language is similar to that which Jesus used when talking about the great tribulation that will suddenly come in upon the entire inhabited earth. Revelation reveals the test will come about due to Satan demanding that all give allegiance to his earthly political system or face death. Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/time-end/

              Read a lot more> https://e-watchman.com/?s=test

          • NOAHtheARKist

            I like your thinking….”Satan decieves the entire world”….So, how can we be sure?
            When the Son of Man returns, will He truly find faith on the earth?
            These things are always on my mind, we must constantly be on guard and be vigilant in regards our spiritual lives, question everything!
            I was totally convinced that the watchtower had it right as have most here, we must be cautious and reason….I enjoy your reading the comments!

            • Huldah

              Thanks for the encouragement!
              You’re comments have also expanded my thinking.

        • Huldah

          I want to add this here for continuity.
          I really like your concise explanation of the main issues.

          As I think about this, I can see that the mark corresponds to Lot’s wife’s decision to look back or the Christian’s decision to return to Jerusalem in 69 CE instead of waiting it out in the mountains as they were told.

          I now believe that the tests and marking that come after Christ arrives are just to manifest what we already are in our hearts.

          I have always thought that the oil of the ten virgins represented their spirituality.
          Those that had it already made it in when the bridegroom arrived. Those that were lacking spirituality were locked out. Its that simple.

          You can so apply this to the unwelcome guest who got into the feast but was found not to have the proper attire. The testing and mark will weed out those ones.

          Oil & garment signify faith and spirituality drveloped before Christ comes.

        • Huldah

          Raven said….”Coming of Christ …..concludes gospel era…if a person has not come into an approved relationship… There is no further opportunity to do so.”

          I second that and add something profound that I just found.

          2Thess
          Whenever they are saying peace and security sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them.

          THE WORD FOR DESTRUCTION.

          OLETHROS

          means not death but this
          From Bible Hub MacDonald

          The destruction Paul warns about is a time of unavoidable distress, disaster and ruin. This destruction will not be a loss of being but rather a loss of well-being. The idea of olethros is to suffer the loss of all that gives worth to existence.
          2 Thessalonians 1:9 And these (“those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus” 2Th 1:8, cp Jn 3:36) will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

          Comment: This verse makes it very clear that olethros does not mean physical annihilation but rather the eternal separation from Christ of the lost. ”

          The destruction or “olethros” is actually what Raven describes as the loss of any further opportunity to come to an approved relationship with Jehovah similar to Tartarus or separation from God.

          This state occurs immediately when the presence of Christ begins.

          • NOAHtheARKist

            I apologize for interrupting your convo, but have you considered the fact that when Jesus said, “At an hour that you do not expect” , that his return would be unknowable for all, and that all the signs that he said to watch for already occurred and we must discern the symbolic meaning as opposed to the literal, like you hit on here with the “destruction” and its meaning, perhaps the answer is much deeper than we think….We are watching events but how thief-like is that if we see Jesus coming? I dont know, my mind wonders and I think between the lines…Christ return will be without fanfare and observable signs as the scripture says….what do you think?

            • NOAHtheARKist

              Luke 17:20

          • The Raven

            Everything in quotes is what Robert wrote. They are his essays which I have been presenting and I agree with him fully on these matters after looking over them. I thank Kevin for pointing me to them and I ran with it from there. They are clear.

            • Huldah

              Didn’t see the quotes. Your comment was so clear and to the point that that I wanted to keep pursuing the idea as replies to your initial summation.

              My comments were open to everyone.

              It seems you zeroed in on the most helpful points from Robert’s article.

            • The Raven

              He nailed it as far as I’m concerned and it did not require much of me to find the answers to our questions. Some were surprising, to say the least. Some were very serious. As I explained to Richard and this goes for Burt or anyone else who worries about their standing in God’s eyes; Jesus’ requirements for approval were few. Everyone here knows what they are. It’s the MOL within the WTO that’s made us frightened and unsteady and the mere fact that we’re HERE openly discussing and searching God’s word for truth speaks volumes IMHO. You would NOT be able to do this at KH.
              I thank Robert for this venue and all his great essays and insight.
              And I thank you too, Huldah for your questions and replies.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              I’m sure you will agree.
              Amos 3:7
              For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing
              Unless he has revealed his confidential matter* to his servants the prophets / [Robert]
              Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you; for everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened.Matthew 7:7, 8

            • The Raven

              Yes I do. I’m here to learn.

      • Huldah

        I read this article and posed a question to Raven.
        Feel free to answer it.

      • Vasilios Agio

        Well I should elkaborate on this . My reasoning is that in Noah’s day it was pieceful and business as usual until the four closed in the ark . To parallel that to the end times the closing of the door is the end of the system . And before the system ends its business as usual , women handed over to marriage etc etc . They took no note . So I are you say the war will start and then Jesus must return or else no man shall live . Michael the arc angel Christ and banish satan away with his coming in great glory so . I thought there would be a war then peace then Armageddon . I have to read brother Roberts book again I’m really shady on end time events . Sorry

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Whenever they say “peace and security” – Then what?
          Excerpt:
          QUESTION: We have read all your “peace and security” articles and someone already posed the question if it is possible that the declaration of peace and security might come after the world war and you said ‘no that is not possible’, but then on another article someone asked you in the comments and you said you weren’t dogmatic. Might it be possible that a very limited nuclear strike could happen and then suddenly countries would push for peace before an all-out war? Can you help clarify this for us?.
          Read more>
          https://e-watchman.com/whenever-they-say-peace-and-security-then-what/

          Read a lot more>
          Search results for: peace. https://e-watchman.com/?s=peace+

      • Huldah

        This is about the clearest example of how the false parousia puts us in danger.

        If we believe there is a long drawn out presence with no earth shattering events, we can believe that normalcy prevails DURING Christs presence.

        It’s the preconceived notion that distorts the obvious meaning of this text.

        Its just another reiteration of the fact that people would be oblivious to the seriousness of the times right up until Jesus arrives.

        This warning goes hand in hand with the thieflike coming and is repeated over and over.

        No time in history has ever been characterized by such idiotic complacency as the last decade.
        Likely due to the money printing debt inebriation the whole world is under.

        The grave danger lies in the fact that witnesses oversimplify this warning and comfort themselves that the world will go on as normal right up until armageddon.
        Skip the nasty parts judgement, testing, fall of the US, rise of the tyrant.
        Go directly to the good part when Jeh rescues his people.

        All Jesus was really saying is that people would be deluded and complacent right before all hell broke loose.

        Like the Jews JWs are expecting a messiah who comes to deliver them, but they will receive a messiah who comes to judge them.

        And again Christ comes as the stone of stumbling.

        Luke 19

        44 They will dash you and your children within you to the ground,+ and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you,+ because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”

        45 Then he entered the temple and started to throw out those who were selling,+

    • The Raven

      Here’s a lot more to help explain this from Robert’s work:
      https://e-watchman.com/lords-day-coming-exactly-thief-night/

      Excerpt:
      “The Watchtower teaches that the Lord’s day began in 1914, but Jehovah’s day is in the future. However, if we reset the Lord’s day to the future, then everything comes into focus. Their saying “peace and security” immediately precedes nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom —in other words: world war three, which will destroy the present ordering of nations and bring down the Anglo-American duo – “sudden destruction.”

      And because that catastrophe will also bring about the sudden end of the Watchtower-sponsored, world-wide work, effectively closing the door of salvation, even the survivors of the global war, famine and pestilence will not escape the ultimate destruction at Armageddon. That is why Jesus reiterated his warning one last time, placing his thief-like coming as an immediate prelude to Armageddon, since the beginning of the conclusion will segue into the end in short order. “

      • Richard Long

        Or maybe we see the “closing of the door” as the end of the opportunity to receive the message. Many having received the message prior to the closing of the door and not acting on it in a way we think is adequate may have done so in a way Jehovah thinks is adequate enough for their actual judge to read their hearts and find them acceptable? Would not those individuals have the opportunity to choose once there is no mistaking the two kingdoms to choose from ? Isn’t it after the destruction of the WT that the call goes forth to get out of BTG? Not making a stand her, rather seeking clarity.

        • The Raven

          See also my reply to Huldah and this:

          https://e-watchman.com/grand-instructor/

          We better have ourselves straight before the dominos begin to fall because once they do, there is no further preaching, teaching etc. What has been brought in is it. We are still not assured salvation until the eighth king does his worst and compels all to take the mark. The world is virtually in Satan’s hands. It’s Jehovah’s people that he wants to destroy to prove Him wrong.

          • Richard Long

            So, we might be on more solid ground thinking that those hearing the call to come out of BTG and do come out are ones already dedicated in their hearts, if not publicly? At the time of that call, everyone will have already made a choice?

            • The Raven

              This is interesting because she is associated with the eighth king.

              https://e-watchman.com/babylon-the-great/

              In fact, the revelatory angel focused more upon the beast than the harlot riding the beast. That is significant. To illustrate the point here is an excerpt from the 17th chapter of Revelation: “Well, on catching sight of her I wondered with great wonderment. And so the angel said to me: ‘Why is it you wondered? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world. Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.”’

              Please take note of the fact that the ascension of the beast out of the abyss initiates the judgment of the world. Those who “wonder admiringly” do not have their names written down in the scroll of life. In other words they receive the mark of the beast in forfeiture of their lives – receiving the sentence of the second death. The 13th chapter of Revelation similarly depicts a seven-headed beast recovering from a mortal blow to one of its heads only to recover, afterwards the world follows the beast “admiringly.” So, the death blow is what sends the beast into the abyss.

            • Richard Long

              And clarity it is. Once the GT begins, the door is shut.

            • The Raven

              It is shut to preaching the truth. It is not judgement. Many will die during this time including some of us. That much we know and that is not a judgement on us. That’s war and everything that follows it like famine and pestilence. It will be very difficult for everyone. The goal is to seal the anointed and get some of Jah’s people through it all to the new day.
              Judgement begins with the ascension of the eighth king and believers and non believers both will be present at that time for the test.

            • Huldah

              It appears that the test is only for true believers since its a given that unbelievers will not have built up true faith. Its not really a test if you are guaranteed to fail( or pass for that matter).

              Judgement on thr HOG
              Mark of the beast
              Get out of BTG

              All 3 tests directed only to True believers.

            • The Raven

              The timeline is important here. Once tribulation begins ,preaching stops. That is the door that is shut. Non believers who die during tribulation from the resulting wars (and all that they entail) as well as believers are dealing with the first death.

              Those who survive all that and take the mark die at Armageddon and have suffered the second death, Gehenna.

            • Richard Long

              Because the GT is not Jehovah’s judgement but rather a Satan- inspired, man-made event? And we suppose only persons killed by direct judgement of Jehovah end up in gehenna?

              EDIT: makes​ sense, as Robert’s essay you excerpted said the judgement begins with the ascension of the eighth king.

            • The Raven

              The scripture is clear on that point. Those who take the mark go to Gehenna. It does not say that all those who perish through war and the ensuing ills go there.

              https://e-watchman.com/day-jehovah-near/

              “Jehovah’s Day will be preceded by a demonically-driven human catastrophe that will envelope the nations in blood, fire and columns of smoke; confronting all people with their own helplessness and insignificance. And our response to the globe-engulfing calamity will serve as the basis for God’s judgment, for it will force upon all humanity the unavoidable choice of either unequivocally accepting the rule of Christ’s kingdom or swearing allegiance to the last human kingdom in opposition to God’s rulership – Satan’s mimic kingdom, the so-called new world order.”

            • NOAHtheARKist

              Is satans “mimic kingdom” really the “NWO?”
              How can we be sure that is true?
              Just asking, not being contentious….
              Isn’t it possible that satan has hijacked the watchtower, for example and made that his kingdom?
              The hour of the authority of darkness?
              I wonder about these things, the 7 headed beast etc..
              Like I said, Im not picking a fight or trying to go loony, just a thought

            • NOAHtheARKist

              I am trying to reason it all out…..

            • The Raven

              Hi Noah,
              Who do you think influenced the MOL in the GB? The eighth king rises after a conflagration among nations. You could call it a NWO. If the descriptions in revelation, Daniel and Ezekiel are to be believed about the level of destruction and death, we really are looking at a huge population reduction, which is what they have been harping on for decades. “Lest all flesh perish” He will cut short the destruction. That seems pretty clear to me.

              Once the eighth king rises he will have a much smaller population to control. Then, they can achieve full spectrum dominance. The WT is STILL Jehovah’s people even though they are misled. The examination and discipline begins with them. FIRST.

              Robert’s articles are all linked in my replies. Most of our answers to these questions can be found in them and the scriptures he cites.

            • NOAHtheARKist

              Thanks for the reply, I like to read others thoughts along with the articles…I am not here to challenge and provoke, just to learn….I appreciate ewatchman’s site, a great place for discussion!

            • The Raven

              We all need to examine these matters closely. I never see any of these discussions as anything more than trying to get to the truth.

            • Richard Long

              Feel free to follow the link Raven gave me and read the whole article. Satan has corrupted the WT, but one must reason: does the WT have the means to become the eighth king, a tyrannical global empire?

              On a personal note, I have found that for every uncertainty or every “looney” notion I have, Robert as written an essay to provide a better understanding. That is, of course, a matter of trust you may not yet be comfortable with, but give it a try. Tap the search icon, type in your subject and read away. Need help, BrklynKevin, DA, and now The Raven have all become adept at search and rescue, ready to offer a link.

            • The Raven

              Look at the scripture he quoted as well. when you get time. It’s been a pleasure “talking” with you and Huldah. Now I’m off to bed. Early day tomorrow.

              🙂

            • The Raven

              Let me add…The reason for that? To prove the point that it CAN be done. And yes, the beatings will commence right off the bat:

              https://e-watchman.com/after-the-tribulation-in-those-days/
              “That the desolation of the holy place during the conclusion relates to Christ’s congregation is why Jesus instructs his followers to flee out of the midst of the city when the time comes for meting out punishment. (Keep in mind that in the illustration of the faithful and evil slaves both slaves are punished, albeit the ignorant slave with only a few stories of the lash and the willfully disobedient slave with many strokes.)”

              Those who know the truth will not be fooled by the WT’s mess of prphecy.

            • The Raven

              In light of all these revelations, think about what the GB at the WT has done to Jehovah’s people.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Mmmm…like this point!

            • Sam Knight

              Have you ever thought about the test involving acceptance of genetic modification?
              A blasphemous idea because it would allow imperfect eternal life.
              It would do away with the ransom sacrifice. It would be the devils ultimate insult to Jehovah.

            • The Raven

              This is also an excellent article to further our understanding:

              https://e-watchman.com/after-the-tribulation-in-those-days/
              Excerpt:
              “In his prophecy of the conclusion Jesus said the tribulation would be followed by the sun becoming dark and the moon not giving its light and men becoming faint with fear. That same symbolism is employed in the 6th chapter of Revelation with the opening of the sixth seal. It is apparent that the crashing of mountains and falling stars is meant to symbolize the collapse of the political and economic system. That is why the terrified citizenry are depicted as hiding in caves and holes in the earth, begging the mountains to “fall over us” to protect them from Jehovah’s wrath.

              In view the fact that Jesus said the tribulation would be cut short on account of the chosen ones, otherwise no flesh would be saved, indicates that the tribulation is an existential crisis for all humanity, not merely the destruction of false religion.

              What does it mean that the tribulation is cut short?

              That the tribulation does not immediately lead into Armageddon is evident from the fact that Jesus referred to events occurring “immediately after the tribulation in those days.” Its being cut short means that the nations will be allowed to recover momentarily. That is what is symbolized by the beast crawling out of the abyss, by the mortally wounded head that miraculously revives. In the aftermath of the tribulation Revelation depicts the angels holding back the four winds of destruction. Why? In order that the sealing of the chosen ones may be finished. Jesus indicated as much when he said after the tribulation the great trumpet will sound and the chosen ones will be gathered. “

            • Huldah

              2Peter 2:9
              So, then, Jehovah* knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial,+ but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed* on the day of judgment,+

              Jeh has set up a perfect test. It will weed out the wicked, but right hearted ones will, by their inclination, be saved.
              We have to be sure our hearts are complete toward God. Jeh is the only one who can complete our hearts through his training.

            • Huldah

              I hadn’t thought about it til now but it appears that BTG rides the 7 headed beast likely leading the persecution of true christians, but does not dominate the 8th. Instead the 8th king is the one to destroy her.

              US Collapses
              Judgement HOG&
              BTG Riding beast
              8th World Govt
              Mark test
              Destruction BTG
              Gog/8th King attacks true Christians
              Armageddon

            • The Raven

              That’s correct. Then everyone gets a look at who he really is. But…too late.

            • The Raven

              Excerpt:
              “Please take note of the fact that the ascension of the beast out of the abyss initiates the judgment of the world.”

              That point is very important.

        • The Raven

          A simple way of looking at this is that there are two groups of people.Those who know Jehovah and those who do not. The door closes for everyone to get on board with the truth once tribulation begins. We may lose our lives during tribulation like the rest of humanity will and there may be billions if thermonuclear war occurs. But we all come back from that event.
          However, both groups who survive to see the eighth king rule now have to make a choice. Remember, Satan is after especially Jah’s people. He has a point to prove. ALL those who take the mark at that time are done for good at Armageddon.

          • The Raven

            You can see why the WT has done JWs a great disservice. They do not expect this at all. They know Jehovah but they are led by the MOL. That will become very evident to them once this starts. Their cohesiveness will be put to a serious test. Those of us who KNOW the truth are better able to understand what’s happening and may be able to navigate with God’s help through this and the last test to stand as the first subjects of the new kingdom under Christ and the anointed. A living testament before the devil that he is a liar.

            The clarity I find in Robert’s thoughts is remarkable. Much of what I have replied to is in his articles with numerous scripture cited.

        • The Raven

          There is still time and we are ALL dragged through tribulation. They may come to see the truth of the matter when this begins. Note the timeline and who rules. In the aftermath of WWIII the power vacuum will be filled by the eighth king. THAT is when a choice can fetch you life or eternal death. Unless they come through all of that and then worship the beast, there is still hope. I have friends who are also uncertain at this time as are many JW’s misled by lies. I’m not expecting a cake walk. In fact, we’re ALL in for it.

        • Southern ShaSha

          Richard, I think there are many of us in the same “wishful thinking boat”. All we can do at this point, with of course any knowledge we are able to share, along with world events, their eyes may be opened.
          The clock is certainly ticking away, but hope and prayer is what we have for now.

        • The Raven

          It’s pretty simple. What did Jesus require of us? To follow him, love God and each other. Correct? Our love for Jehovah led us to find the truth. We know his people have been infiltrated and subverted and we have men like Robert to thank for that knowledge. We now have a heads up for what’s going to happen. Although we are ALL sinners He will help us along if we have faith in Him. STOP going by what the WTO requires of us to be saved. They are not our judges. They are top heavy with stupid prophets who will be reckoned with. Trust Jah and stay strong in your faith.

      • Vasilios Agio

        That’s an awesome explanation . Can we go back to the sudden destruction of the Anglo American partnership . So where doesn’t the eighth king come from and from what nation or is it a world government with authority from all the others ? I think I’ve read this before but I’ve still got watchtower dogma in my brain and this is why this is very uncertain in my mind and I need to get the big picture .

  • Vasilios Agio

    This is certainly alarming to say the least brother Robert . What my thoughts are is , what will we do wen the internet is cut off , this little eclisia will also vanish and how are we to strengthen one another wen we have no contact and given that we don’t all live close together to at least help one another thru tribulation . At least the witnesses will have there brothers and sisters to give each other strength in these time . What are we to do when the internet brakes down ? It will be as tho we are out in our own without a guide or someone to draw close too . This takes a lot of faith to endure this time of the end when satan is truly cast out . Any ideas ?

    • Richard Long

      Well, Vasilios, I for one have a copy of my primer for the Apocalypse in my “go bag” right next to my Bible. Besides that Jehovah has instructed us that he will provide out need, even filling the non-remnant believers, we manservants and maidservants, with holy spirit. Further, for the actual battle of Armageddon, are not we other sheep told we will be mere spectators? Have faith, my brother. Jehovah will provide salvation through or Resurrection over!

Skip to toolbar