Has Jehovah turned against the Watchtower?

//Has Jehovah turned against the Watchtower?

When the Israelites crossed the Jordan after their 40 year wilderness trek the first fortified city they encountered in the Promised Land was Jericho. As a vivid demonstration that the invaders had the support of a powerful God the protective walls of the city fell flat when the priests blew their trumpets.

What confidence that must have inspired among the Israelites. With God fighting their battles there is no enemy that could stand before them.

Flush with the success of victory the Israelite spies recommended a small contingent of only 2-3,000 men of war to take out the next Canaanite city, Ai. But the stunning victory over Jericho was not to be repeated. The warriors of Ai inflicted defeat upon them and sent the theocratic invaders fleeing back to the Israelite camp in disgrace and humiliation.

What had happened? Why didn’t Jehovah miraculously destroy Ai like he did Jericho?

God informed Joshua that Israel had overstepped his covenant with them. It turns out that someone had stolen something that belonged to Jehovah. When the Israelites came to Jericho God had commanded them to destroy everything, except the gold and silver, which was to be put into the treasury; but everything else was devoted to destruction. But a man named Achan stole some of the silver and a bar of gold and an article of clothing —something devoted to destruction. And because the thing devoted to destruction was in the Israelite camp it brought defeat upon them. Think of it —the sin of one man brought ostracism upon Israel and as a result God would no longer fight for them, not until the thief was found out and destroyed.

This biblical account should serve as a powerful lesson for Jehovah’s Witnesses —particularly the leadership. The lesson being: Just because God may have granted success in the past is no guarantee of his continued blessing. His blessing is always contingent upon faithfulness. And as shown in many other biblical accounts, the sins of a few may bring down evil upon the whole.

Has not the Watchtower cited their many legal victories over the years as evidence of Jehovah’s support and backing? That being true, what must a significant legal defeat mean, except the opposite —that Jehovah has turned against them? Such a thing is not without scriptural precedent.

Jerusalem was once the place where Jehovah had placed his name. The city was the administrative center of the theocracy Jehovah had set up.

Jehovah defended the city from Assyrian invaders in the days of Hezekiah, dispatching an angel to slay 185,000 warriors in one night. But some 150 years after that stunning victory over the presumptuous Assyrians God turned against Jerusalem. He had had it with their hypocritical form of worship and their refusal to set matters straight with him. After giving them advanced warning through Jeremiah, from out of the north God brought the Babylonian juggernaut against them. The Chaldeans were an unstoppable force, like a flood of surging waters. As Nebuchadnezzar’s forces began to lay siege to Jerusalem the panicked leadership finally inquired of Jehovah. But it was too late. In response God said through Jeremiah: “Here I am turning around against you the weapons of war that are in your own hands, with which you are fighting the king of Babylon and the Chaldeans who are outside the wall besieging you. And I will gather them into the middle of this city. And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and a mighty arm, with anger and wrath and great indignation. I will strike the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast. By a great pestilence they will die.”

JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IN RUSSIA

Jehovah’s Witnesses did not just come under ban in Russia recently. Almost from the moment they received legal recognition following the collapse of the USSR Jehovah’s Witnesses have come under attack by the Russian Orthodox Church, which has merely used the legal apparatus to do its dirty work. As far back as 1995 Moscow has tried to outlaw the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The July 15, 2011, Watchtower entitled A Lengthy Legal Struggle Ends in Victory, recounts the determined efforts of the Orthodox Church to ban the preaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Ironically, shortly after the 2011 Watchtower article announced victory Russia declared Jehovah’s Witnesses to be an extremist group. In 2013 the Watchtower’s official website, jw.org, was blocked by Internet providers throughout the entire Russian Federation. Russia is reportedly the only country in the world to block the Watchtower’s website.

The recent Ministry of Justice ruling merely upheld the ruling imposed several years ago —effectively liquidating the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses in all of Russia. At this point the Watchtower has a month to appeal the court’s decision. It also intends to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

But here is the deal —without God’s support it will not matter who the Watchtower’s lawyers appeal to for help. Nor will any amount of letter writing on the part of JW’s around the world have any effect on the outcome. As the scripture says: “Unless Jehovah guards the city, it is in vain that the guard stays awake.” —Psalms 127

The Watchtower has been quick to acknowledge their defeat in Russia —spinning it as a witness to the nations and a great shout of praise to Jehovah’s name —this, because the media has widely covered the case and been sympathetic. Governing Body member, Mark Sanderson, who is apparently fluent in Russian, was sent to Moscow along with the Watchtower’s chief counsel, Phillip Brumley. (See JW Broadcast special video) Much is made in the video of the fact that a representative of the Governing Body made a personal visit to Moscow to support Jehovah’s Witnesses.

However, in this the Watchtower is being extremely hypocritical, as less than two years ago the Watchtower was investigated in Australia by a Royal Commission set up to examine the way child abuse is dealt with by various religions. The Governing Body was represented by Geoffrey Jackson, who testified at the inquiry. And just as with Russia, the media also gave the proceedings of the commission wide coverage. However, to this day the WT has made no mention of the Australian investigation. There was no video boasting of Brother Jackson’s presence in Australia in support of Jehovah’s Witnesses. No mention of the fine witness he gave to the nations. No mention of the Royal Commission inquiry at all. The obvious reason being, it was a disgrace and a reproach.

The Watchtower’s utter disregard and shameful failure to protect children in the congregations from JW sexual predators was on full display before the world —not to mention Brother Jackson’s lying under oath, denying that the Governing Body claim to be Jehovah’s sole channel of truth.

Even quite recently certain media have taken note of the fact that some religious outfits have made public apology for their failure to protect children from abuse, in contrast to the callous intransigence of the Governing Body. As all of Jehovah’s Witnesses surely know, they have never and will never apologize for anything. Just the opposite in fact, they will declare war upon any JW who dares to suggest that the exalted leadership of Jehovah’s earthly theocracy has any reason to apologize. (See Micah 3:5)

But honestly, if the legal case in Russia resulted in a great shout of praise to the name of Jehovah, then the exposure brought upon the Governing Body by the Royal Commission investigation was a tremendous reproach upon the name of Jehovah.

As is apparent in the Watchtower’s recent Brooklyn real estate transactions, the theocratic corporation greatly values property. In the video on JW Broadcast, the Governing Body expresses its grave concern over the properties of the Watchtower being “unjustly confiscated” by the Russian Federation, including several hundred kingdom halls and the “beautiful branch office” of the Administrative Center for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia.

The Governing Body would do well to keep in mind that these “unjustly confiscated” properties do not really belong to the Watchtower anyway, regardless of whichever of the myriad of legal entities under the Watchtower umbrella of corporations is listed as the owner. Since all properties are dedicated to Jehovah in a solemn ceremony, they really belong to God, just as did the ancient temples that Solomon and Herod had built. That being true, Jehovah is certainly entitled to do with his property whatever he chooses and give it to whomever he wishes. And if God wishes that the Russian Federation take custody of his property, surely there is nothing the Watchtower’s lawyers can do about it.

In the case of Achan God was robbed by merely one man. More than a thousand years later, though, God accused the Jewish nation of turning his house into a cave of robbers. In context here is what Jehovah said: “But you are putting your trust in deceptive words it will bring absolutely no benefit. Can you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make sacrifices to Baal, and follow after gods you had not known, and then come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, ‘We will be saved,’ despite your doing all these detestable things? Has this house that bears my name become a cave of robbers in your eyes? Here I have seen it for myself…” —Jeremiah 7:8-11

The deceptive words in which the Jews were putting their trust was that the temple of Jehovah in their midst ensured God’s perpetual blessing. The Jews deceived themselves into believing that because they were part of Jehovah’s organization they would always have his protection. How wrong they were!

Of course, Jesus quoted this very prophecy when he threw out the money changers from the rebuilt temple in the restored city of Jerusalem —declaring the temple as his Father’s sacred house.

As Jehovah’s Witnesses ought to know, the prophecy of Jeremiah applies foremost to “the final part of the days,” an expression that appears four times in the prophetic book of Jeremiah. So, the judgments contained in Jeremiah really pertain to the place where Jehovah has placed his name in the Christian era —in other words, to Jehovah’s Witnesses, the leadership in particular.

In a very real sense the leadership of the Watchtower has become a cave of robbers too, just like their Jewish counterparts. Like the thief, Acahn, they have broken the covenant, refusing to deal justly with the oppressed and victimized, which has always been the solemn obligation of all those with whom Jehovah has entrusted authority over his people. 

Instead of offering an apology and compensation to the many children who have fallen victim to their policies, the Watchtower wheels and deals with God’s property like used car salesmen. They boast of not passing a collection plate like the detestable clergy, but the have devised every money-collecting scheme imaginable, from debit centers at assemblies, or whatever they are called now, to accepting rewards points for hotels and airlines, to very sophisticated “charitable planning,” potentially involving huge sums of money and valuable property. It turns out, the collection plates don’t hold near enough anyway!

As it stands presently, preparations are well underway for a global confrontation involving all the nuclear powers. Of special importance is the fact that the Anglo-American alliance is provoking conflict with an alliance composed of Russia, China and Iran, as of now none of which allow Jehovah’s Witnesses to operate.

The loss of the Watchtower’s valuable property in Russia is just the beginning —a preview of things to come on a grand scale. With the impending collapse of America, the enfeebled bastion of liberty, all of the Watchtower’s property —including their beautiful new headquarters in Warwick —are destined to be confiscated. Ultimately, the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be brought to their knees. And they will have to be made to know that he is Jehovah and he will not allow anyone to rob him —especially those who bear his name before the world.

2017-07-28T09:15:14+00:00 April 24th, 2017|Page Two|198 Comments
  • Apple Pi

    I found the e-watchman site about 10 years ago. Ever since then, I’ve been working hard to stay spiritually awake. My head is spinning right now, after reading this article. It’s mind boggling to think that we are on the verge of being eyewitnesses of Satan being kicked out of the heavens and all that is to follow. Thank you, Brother King, for staying faithful to Jehovah all these years and for providing insight to the scriptures. There’s no telling how many people you have helped over the years to put their faith and trust in Jehovah and Jesus. I pray for Jehovah to help you continue faithful to the end. I was baptized at the Integrity Keepers convention 29 years ago. Back then I had no clue what the road ahead was going to be like. It’s been real bumpy at times. I feel like Jehovah’s been looking out for me, steering me in this direction, guiding me in that direction, doing a lot of refining work. I remind myself every day, “The most powerful force in the universe is Jehovah’s spirit.” I don’t ever want to succumb to fear of man or lose my integrity. I pray for the brothers and sisters worldwide to remain faithful, stay strong, and continue to trust in Jehovah and his son, Jesus.

    • Simpletruth

      I second your thoughts exactly!!! I do believe that by means of Jehovah’s spirit, Brother King has held true to his commission and has helped countless number of witnesses/ex witnesses the world over. I especially like how you state that he has helped people put their faith and trust in Jehovah and Jesus. I know that’s what it’s all about but being an individual raised in the organization and who left in my early 20’s (almost 20 years ago now) I can honestly say that when I was in “the truth” I didn’t really know what it meant to have REAL faith in Jehovah and His son. I only knew how to have faith in the organization (although I thought my faith was real at the time). When I left the org I never forgot Jehovah but I couldn’t find peace with Him nor could I figure out how to have faith or have a relationship with Him. This is because I viewed Him as being so interwoven with His organization so that if I wasn’t a part of it I couldn’t have any real connection to Him. Brother King, by means of Jehovah’s Spirit, has helped me to appreciate otherwise and I am forever grateful for that!!!

  • Thinking

    Robert good article..but the Society didn’t send Brother Jackson To the ARC..he was in Australia visiting his ill father. When the court found out that a representative of the GB was actually in Australia they requested his presence ..He declined …..the court insisted…the society then thru our lawywes explained that he would be of no use to the courts as he was only involved in the translation department …The court accepted that..

    At the next sitting the court had information given to them this was not true…they had been educated on just how much Brother Jackson was involved in policy making etc…and not just translations.
    They then accused us of deliberately misleading the court/commission and surpenoed him to appear…..he had no choice …he was legally forced to..
    The societies lawyer then publicly apologized for misleading the court..
    At no time did the society send or make available any GB to the ARC.

    • Thanks for the info. I made a slight edit in the article in accord with your input.

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      What a shocking!! GB telling lies!!!

      • Thinking

        Let’s say they tried to misrepresent themselves..lol…but it was a lie..yes..as Hillary said….she told an ‘untruth..’…..but it was caught out before the nation and even Christendom..”.thus a shocking indictment against Jehovah our God…

        • Richard Long

          “What do you mean wiped? You mean with a cloth?” Didn’t Hill coin the term “suspension of disbelief”?

          • Thinking

            Wiped?..did I say that somewhere?

            • Richard Long

              HRC congressional testimony regarding the erasure of the hard drives in her unauthorized personal email server.

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          Thanks for your reply but the information what you have given above I have copied and saved it thanks once again for your valuable information. Hey how did you make to get that I like to know, becasue I need more information like this as it may be helpful for me to add evidence to an article which I am writing on Revelation Chapter 7:5. In that if you note Dan and Ephraim tribe has been rejected while Joseph and Levi is once again added. The reason is not what was said by WTS in their Revelation book in page 117 para11, it is totally different. I found the real reason why it is so becasue Jehovah and Jesus will not tell unnecessary details unless until it is relevant. So for this your valuable information will be helpful for me. After finishing my article I will post it in http://baruq.uk/. Please here is my email address easajw@gmail.com and have contact with me.

          • Thinking

            Sent email 🙂

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              I checked my mail and I did not get any email from you. Please check in your sent item to which address you sent. The email what I posted is correct that is easajw@gmail.com. Please check have you done any spelling mistakes? I like to broaden my friendship with the people those who associate in this website.

            • Thinking

              Okay tried again 🙂

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              Yes I got your email

            • Thinking

              I double checked and sent..I am also on E Jw …you can always PM me there ..hopefully we will connect up,….

    • Burt Reynolds

      Ha! I thought Robert was just being kind. You got that lot right! So dissapointing at the time. It reminded me of an abused child at the time…too scared to tell the truth….too involved to speak out.

    • Richard Long

      He had a choice, just not a defensible one.,

  • Luis Meriño Vásquez

    Wow… that was an impressive article the final part put me goosebumps. Keep on your work… the time is very very near… it would not a surprise if the last days begin this same year.

    • Matthew 21:43
      This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

      1 Peter 4:17
      For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?

  • Bklyn Kevin

    I guess Jehovah has preach to the governing body without saying a word – perhaps now the governing body will pay attention. It’s obvious to me that Jehovah is allowing the governing body to be defeated because of their transgressions due to there threwing truth to the ground By not protecting widows and orphans / the rape victims.

    And Robert you’re absolutely right when you said
    “all of the Watchtower’s property —including their beautiful new headquarters in Warwick —are destined to be confiscated. Ultimately, the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be brought to their knees.
    And I most certainly agree it is a preview of things to come on a grand scale.

    And that’s exactly what the scriptures in the book of Daniel actually attest to for the future.

    It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature,[WHY] because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.Daniel8:11-12.Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/daniel/8/#v27008011

    • Burt Reynolds

      I doubt that the loss of the brothers property in Russian, given to Jehovah, will make the governing body understand what is afoot right now. I think it will not be realised before Jehovah abandons them completely. They are too stubborn it seems. It really bugs me the way they steal from the brothers and from Jehovah.

  • Max

    Every time I read articles like this
    one I’m left without words. Who ever ever thought that the
    organization bearing Jehovah’ s name was going to be in such a
    predicament with Jehovah himself. This article is so strong that my
    heart melts and my knees just want to bent in humiliations asking
    Jehovah for forgiveness. We are all JW and we all share the blame for
    the society’s wrongdoings. If you really think deeply what this
    articles is saying “stilling from Jehovah” is no doubt a very
    awful sin to be accused of but it is exactly what the WT has been
    doing. May Jehovah show us mercy when the judgment comes!!!!

  • Arvid Fløysand

    So sad it had to be like this…shame..but its no way around..this is in full harmony with the scriptures .
    Only Jehovah by Christ Jesus can clean this mess…not by water this time but by fire…its gonna be a lesson for all of us…i just wonder..are we moving into the dark night now?…if so i hope a strong voice will declare “the bridegroom is coming”…meanwhile i guess the best we can do is repent, pray

    • Max

      Amen

    • Bklyn Kevin

      What, then, are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who will be against us?. Romans8:31

      • Arvid Fløysand

        “Do not be afraid! For there are more who are with us than those who are with them”..2 Kings 6:16-17…:-)

  • gardeoeilsimple

    I use critical thinking on WT and even more on you Robert, i don’t want to be a slave of another organization or man except for Jehovah and Christ, but for now most of your articles are very well written, you had a talented style, with solid argument based on the bible,you are very unique in your approach, when you reach a level of excellence like this post, my brain continue to digest for a long time after the reading. I’m very surprise to not see a dozen of bible truth lovers on internet like you, at least we can compare, so nobody had the monopoly,or is it possible that Jehovah use a single man to show our sin like Jeremiah. Perimemo web site look similar to you, but you don’t had the same conclusion on all .It’s easy to had an opinion on everything but what’s matter is if our thinking is in harmony with Jehovah .

  • Sirc

    I use critical thinking on WT and even more on you Robert, i don’t want to be a slave of another organization or man except for Jehovah and Christ, but for now most of your articles are very well written, you had a talented style, with solid argument based on the bible,you are very unique in your approach, when you reach a level of excellence like this post, my brain continue to digest for a long time after the reading. I’m very surprise to not see a dozen of bible truth lovers on internet like you, at least we can compare, so nobody had the monopoly,or is it possible that Jehovah use a single man to show our sin like Jeremiah. Perimemo web site look similar to you, but you don’t had the same conclusion on all .It’s easy to had an opinion on everything but what’s matter is if our thinking is in harmony with Jehovah .

    • Even as a disfellowshipped JW, I think I have authenticity because I support the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, what we call “the truth”. I write from the perspective that it is Jehovah’s organization, as advertised. But by bringing the prophecies to bear upon the organization, as opposed to Christendom, it opens up a whole new view of things. Sure, I don’t have the WT’s approval. But, then, neither did the prophets have the approval of the Israelite authorities against whom they spoke.

      • must have been reading my comments back an forth with Brian. if not, your
        comment sure looks like it

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        I am 100% sure you have the approval of Jehovah and Jesus otherwise such great things what you are doing it will be impossible without Jehovah’s support.

      • Sirc

        Disfellowshipped is not an issue because it can be done on human laws who’se not respect Jehovah principle, if i say to my elders that i’m not agree anymore with 1914 and i refuse to retract i will be DFS, i’m virtualy DFS, so we are on the same level from the point of view of JW with pharisians mind .

        WT approval is not important, WT loose a lot of credibility, they had double standard, i can’t believe all what they said as before, but i still continue to be an active JW until Jehovah say otherwise. Now if follows the spirit of acts 17:11, thanks to you and other brothers who i never meet personally.

        Robert you had authenticity and you love Jehovah and about the prophets, it’s your passion, you are an expert in this branch, you’re research are rock solid like this post.

        The question is ”is the truth knowledge from Jehovah in our critical time come from a group of men and women or a single one like Jeremiah?” in other words do we allow room for other Jeremiah?

      • Burt Reynolds

        I think it’s authority stems from the fact that there is no other explanation. Even if one came to this site without ever having been a witness or knowing anything about them, they would have no choice but to understand it as described and the part it has to play. That you or we support them is not of consequence, but should become our choice, but what is of consequence is the vindication of Jehovah’s name within this site and because of Jehovah’s hand upon this site. That is what the truth is and not our justifications for authenticity. It does not rest upon that, but on the vindication of Jehovah’s name. People bring their slants, chronologies, proofs, suggestions and try to determine the will of Jehovah, and yet, all we are commanded to do is wait on Jehovah and see the outworking of his purpose. It will come to us, just as Jesus comes along side to the chosen ones. We have to be ready, and to make ourselves acceptable according to his will.

  • Francis Bencharles

    Powerful denunciation, which is well deserved and earned. Bravo!

    • Richard Long

      Uh, well deserved, perhaps, but also …..Forget it…. Someone else’s turn….

      • Burt Reynolds

        Ha ha. Somewhere along the line, you and I are related.

        • Richard Long

          My paternal grandfather, passed when my Father was I boy, was said to be “mostly English” I do not even know his name, so the geology route will be an uphill climb.

          But, we be brothers and that is enough for me!

  • black curtain

    Just a small point that I take issue with, The WT is NOT Jehovah’s organisation. Never has, and never will be and if this article we are reading is correct, it will no longer exist soon enough. However I agree that WT has been USED by Jehovah and his representative king to do certain things.

    Example, the king of Babylon was USED (capitals for emphasis) by Jehovah, but we cannot say that he belonged to Jehovah.

    If the WT “belonged” to Jehovah, was his, and he and Christ run it, then what they do means HE is responsible for what crimes/sins they commit. No one accepts that for a minute, nor do I.

    As a simple comparison take the case of the United Airlines scandal. If the share price continues to drop who will get the chop? My money is on the CEO. Would we expect less for the one who runs it and makes its decisions?
    The interesting thing is that Corporations are the creation of the Satanic system and I find it impossible to reconcile that Jehovah owns a Corporation, “belongs” to him.

    Furthermore, unlike ancient Israel who, uniquely had a contract with Jehovah, there is not one shred of biblical support that the WTBTS Inc has a unique contact with Jehovah.

    As every good lawyer knows, every thing is in the wording.

    Cognitive conflict, plagues so many people who have left WT because it has been drilled into all of us that WT= Jehovah, that they are one and the same. Jehovah chooses individuals, who make up his people, and I think I can safely say that the choosing is all done through his most worthy son.

    A lot of people here on this site clearly hold Jehovah and his Son in the highest esteem but no longer connect with the WT, yet the cognitive conflict that Jehovah “owns” the WT causes immense hurt and confusion as to what to do. We share some things in faith but not everything, “get out of her my people if you do not want to share in her sins.”

    I am reminded of General Naaman the Syrian. Took a pile of dirt from Israel back home to worship Jehovah, not an Israelite, not a proselyte, just a devoted and respected worshipper of Jehovah and accepted as such, or he never would have been cured of his leprosy.

    • Thinking

      It has to be his house..otherwise why discipline it…1Peter 4:17

      You don’t have to get out of it….Jehovah will get the WEEDS OUT OF IT..
      MATTHEW 13:41
      The son of man will send his angels and they will collect OUT FROM HIS KINGDOM all things that cause stumbling And people who practice lawlessness…

      How he does this I don’t know
      Perhaps we are seeing it now?????

      • Richard Long

        Thinking, Brian has made some very compelling points regarding the way we have “delusion echo”, it being not possible to immediately purge every thing tied to the articles of delusion, as it permeates everything we “understand”. I’m leaning towards the notion that, given that IF the parousia has not yet begun, and Rev:14 occurs DURING the parousia, then peri-delusion, we all may very well be in “her” (BTG) and post-delusion we are still in but being prepared to heed the gall to get out when it comes. I dunno. I still have to sort out the truths tied to lies from the truths tied to truths. Its an arduous process, especially without my mind control device. New skill: doing the work myself.

        • Thinking

          Yeah it’s hard I grant you that..been on that tread mill myself…but it’s not really that complicated to work out..once you get thru the confusion and hurt..at the moment you are a bit like a roo caught in a cars headlights at night…..a roo can be jumping along happily at night but when the headlights (TATT) hit them …the roo( the likes of you and me) …is stunned and mesmerized..it stares in shock and cannot think in which direction to go…thats when it’s easy to shoot them…that’s when a lot of ones like us die off too..

          You will be okay brother ..but it takes a lot of time to readjust and find your balance and know which direction to go….hey …eventually you will bounce away in the right direction..( big jumping smiley ) .

          • Richard Long

            or end up tied to the hood.

            • Thinking

              Hahahah…well kangaroo tail soup is very delicious

            • Richard Long

              btw, in the states its deer, hence the expression “froze like a deer in the headlights”

            • Thinking

              And all this time I thought we ozzies coined that phrase …..fair dinkum!!!

            • Richard Long

              we probably stole it from you, copyrighted it and licensed the use of it back to you.

            • Thinking

              Hahahah

            • Burt Reynolds

              IT probably puts a spring in your step!

            • Thinking

              I wish..hahah

            • Brian

              As is the the rest of it!

        • Bklyn Kevin

          How do “my people” get out of Babylon the Great?.

          QUESTION: Hello, I have a question that has come up since Jehovah’s Witnesses have decided that the fall of Babylon the Great is in the future (as it is). Just after she falls verse 4 of Revelation 18 says: “Get out of her, MY PEOPLE if you do not want to share with her in her sins and do not want to receive part of her plagues.” Does that not sound like a whole lot of people are going to come out of Babylon at that time? They are Jehovah’s people- those stumbled, newly interested, etc. THIS IS AFTER BABYLON FALLS! Read more>
          https://e-watchman.com/babylon-the-great/

          Read a lot more>Search results for: Babylon>

          https://e-watchman.com/?s=Babylon

          • Francis Bencharles

            Nice comment B’Kevin. When Jesus explained the sower and the seed he made it clear that “the field is the world”, which of course is the same for Satan’s seed. These seed find their way to different churches or no church at all whether they are Christ’s seed or Satan’s seed. The only exception is the seed that is planted in the “fine soil” which are the members of Christ’s Bride. These ones are drawn to the Watchtower because that is the selected “store house” that Jehovah God has chosen for his Son’s Bride and he draws them all there. But make no mistake, just because JW’s were the chosen vessel for his Son’s Bride that they cannot end up in Babylon the Great. God’s people in as far as “my people” are clearly in all the world, not just JW’s. They have just been “blinded” and made “deaf” by all the things they have to deal with in “the world”. Soon though the angels will indeed gather up the faithful who are scattered about everywhere. Jesus and his angels will show the faithful where to go when the end comes. Contrary to what the WT teaches officially, the end has not come yet.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Actually that’s Roberts commentary from one of his articles which is excellent.

          • Richard Long

            Thank you Kevin, and thank you DA for this link:
            https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

            Below, and in Roberts own magnification of Jehovah’s words, we find that, Kingdom Covenant notwithstanding, no one, neither anointed nor other sheep ought presume AT THIS TIME to call ourselves “Jehovah”s people” but *might* more appropriately describe ourselves as leading applicants for the position, relative to the success of our efforts to remove uncleanness from ourselves compared to the rest of Christendom, this also being subject to the judgement of Jehovah, and NOT OUR OWN OPINION.

            Excerpt:
            In truth anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique relationship with Jehovah God, both personally and as a congregation because of being in the new covenant. However, as with our Jewish forerunners, being in a covenant with Jehovah God brings with it accountability. For example, the 36th chapter of Ezekiel reads:

            “Not for your sakes am I doing it, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have come in. And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which you profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes. And I will take you out of the nations and collect you together out of all the lands and bring you in upon your soil.”’

            The house of Israel profaned God’s great name by practicing false religion. But their idolatry obligated Jehovah to severely punish his people, which he did by allowing Israel and later Judah to be conquered by the nations. This also caused God’s name to be profaned because it gave the appearance that Jehovah was powerless to protect his people from the idol-worshiping nations. So, after punishing his people Jehovah took action against the nations in order to sanctify his name from their reproach.

            Some may be inclined to dismiss prophecies as applying only to the ancient nation of Israel. However, the context of Ezekiel’s prophecy goes on to indicate that it actually applies to Christians living during the return of Christ and the end of the world—what Ezekiel 38:16 calls “the final part of the days.” For instance, Ezekiel 37:25 says that “David” will be the chieftain over God’s regathered people. As mentioned previously, the repatriated Jews never had a descendant of David as their ruler. It is apparent, then, that the prophecy refers to Christians who are under the leadership of Christ, who is called “the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the root of David.” (Rev 5:5) In one of the last verses in Revelation, Christ says of himself: “I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.”

            Clearly, the detailed judgments in the prophecy of Ezekiel apply to Christians during the time of Christ’s return. Therefore, it is the anointed Christian congregation that “will have to know that I am Jehovah” in a very special way. It is in connection with Christ’s judgment upon the spiritual house of God and the ultimate establishment of spiritual paradise that Jehovah says “you are my witnesses.”

            For many reasons it is evident that the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses fit the prophetic profile of a people who have profane the name of Jehovah. This brings us back to the question posed at the onset: Are Jehovah’s Witnesses fulfilling the prophecy of Amos today by serving as a people for Gods name? The answer is no—at least not yet. According to Amos, the people who are called by God’s name are those who become such after the ‘jiggling’ takes place. The jiggling is when Jehovah rocks all the nations during the oncoming tribulation.

            Further on:
            Let the reader please take note of the fact that the prophecy indicates that those who fear the name of Jehovah and who are “thinking upon his name” become the “special property” of Jehovah at that time. Again, when does that occur? The very next verse in Malachi indicates that Jehovah produces a special property composed of those who fear his name during the tribulation. Malachi 4:1 reads: ‘“For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble. And the day that is coming will certainly devour them,’ Jehovah of armies has said, ‘so that it will not leave to them either root or bough. And to you who are in fear of my name the sun of righteousness will certainly shine forth, with healing in its wings; and you will actually go forth and paw the ground like fattened calves.”

            So, while the religion known as Jehovah’s Witnesses is not fulfilling the prophecies by being “a people for his name” at this particular time, undoubtedly the core of Jehovah’s Witnesses are in line to become the people for his name in the very near future. Jehovah’s Witnesses have, though, unquestionably served a vital function by laying the groundwork for the judgments soon to follow.

            The Scriptures even hint that the nominal name of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” will be discarded and replaced by another name; perhaps based upon God’s own revelation of the exact pronunciation of YHWH. Speaking of his wife-like organization, Isaiah 62:2 foretells: “And you will actually be called by a new name, which the very mouth of Jehovah will designate.”
            END OF EXCERPT.

            One wonders now whether we ought to be a formalized organization at all?. One wonders now whether we ought to collectively own property or assets, dedicated to Jehovah or not? One wonders that if Russell et. al. had basic truth restored to them in informal Bible study, in the pattern it was disseminated by the first century footstep followers of Christ, might we all here and in similar forums throughout the world be now be repeating THAT pattern, and that THIS might be pleasing to Jehovah?

            I do not have answers, only question.

      • Lev

        From Russia with love, dear Thinking! A very important question is who is God’s people today to fix it? Notice where the angels collect the weeds? (Matthew 13: 38a) Where does Jehovah himself gather his scattered sheep before the Day of the Lord? (Ezek.34: 5-6) Where did Satan put his man “iniquity”? 2 Thess.2: 4b) .Which shepherds (wolves) All the sheep (the people of God) will be scattered? (Acts 20: 29-30). Dear sister, do you know any religion on Earth that does not claim to be the “true people of God”?
        Thank you in advance for your response.Lev.

        • Thinking

          I’m not sure what you are getting at Lev….sorry..but he has to have a house somewhere on the earth so he can discipline it….I Peter 4:17where is that house brother …as far as Exekial…yes he will gather his sheep back..even now..he is at work doing that….and perhaps in the future as well…
          But I think I’m missing the point you are trying to make?
          Ephesians 4:4,5,6,
          One body there is and one spirit..just as you were CALLED TO THE ONE hope of your calling one lord one faith one baptism one God and Father of all who is over all amd through all…

          There is only one approved faith ..and yes everyone thinks they are…why ….do you not think you are amongst gods own people?
          Sorry if I’m not understanding your question? Very well…and I hope you are safe…:)

          • Lev

            To get a person a member of the people of God, there is not enough baptism and initiation! Today, the people of God are those with whom God Himself records His law on hearts (Jer 31: 31-34). And we need “exceptional devotion” in the heart of the Christian (Exodus 20: 5). In his parable Jesus said that until the “harvest” (the end of the century) the “wheat” (the sons of the kingdom) will not have its own field (church) From the “weeds” (the wicked). After all, the field is the world, and not some kind of religion! And only during the harvest angels reveal the true brothers of Christ. Therefore, if someone says that the sign of the people of God are “anointed” or “lawless” sitting in some religion, then such people go against the words of Christ!

            • Thinking

              Well I guess we can rely safely on Jesus marking those for survival with his inkhorn .Ezk 9 ..he knows who they are …interesting tho he starts in his temple or city…or as he says… MY SANCTUARY…
              So he must have a city/ house/ his
              own sanctuary …somewhere on the earth at the end times….

              I think you are saying all Christians who are genuine of heart will be saved..well all I can say..is those that do not accept the mark of the beast and who call on the name of Jehovah…and accept Jesus as the Christ will be saved…

              But the weeds are definetly in gods own house…who ever they may be…actually im not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing on things here…sorry …but I’m prepared to wait and see…..it’s not like I can do anything else is it,…;)

            • Nigel

              The Temple of Jehovah, His “house”, is the Body of Christ.

              The Temple of Jehovah, the Body of Christ, is not made up of a particular sect/denomination, it is made up of “living stones” – those who have been anointed with Jehovah’s Holy Spirit – and I can assure you that there are MANY outside of the ranks of the JWs who have the Holy Spirit.

              How prophecy will unfold with this in mind is beyond my current understanding but I am fully confident that it will occur exactly as prophesied.

              Whilst I’m certain that Brother Robert King is anointed with Jehovah’s Holy Spirit and has been sent as a watchman/prophet to/for the WTS & JWs, I do not agree that the prophecies relate exclusively to the WTS. Many of the complaints of Jehovah can just as easily be directed to other Christian denominations.

              (I know that many argue that the WTS represents “Jehovah’s Organisation” here on earth on the basis that they use Jehovah’s name, know Christ was nailed to a stake and not a cross (what difference does it make?), understand the falsehood of the Trinity doctrine and other such truths (in addition to the fact they have named themselves “Jehovah’s Witnesses”) but the WTS has also taught an incredible amount of falsehood; and this is EXACTLY as it is in other Christian sects: some truth, some falsehood. The WTS isn’t unique in this regard.)

              Thankfully, the WTS and all other man-directed, Satanically-influenced sects/groups/denominations will soon be eliminated when Jesus returns. One thing we can all agree on: we are looking forward to that time.

              “Amen. Come Lord Jesus”.

            • Thinking

              I Peter 4:17 is not talking about Jesus Christ as his house ..why would Jehovah have to judge Jesus..

            • Nigel

              1 Cor 12:27

            • Richard Long

              Then, in your understanding, ought we to consider the Roman Church “used” by Jehovah in keeping the scriptures somewhat intact through the centuries? And assuming that the application of Isaiah 43 a)to ourselves and b)to this period of time was pure presumptuousness and an element of the delusion, should we or should we not consider ourselves seeking Jehovah but still part of BTG? And regarding the bible itself, is the accepted cannon the complete collection of inspired scripture, or are some or all of the “spurious” writings also inspired and beneficial?

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Food for thought.

          When we read 2Thess 2 it proves that Jehovah’s witnesses are surely GOD’s people.

          How so you might ask? Well aren’t Jehovah’s witnesses the only people proclaiming that the Lord DAY began in 1914 and that Jesus Christ started Reigning as king?.

          Mind you no other religions in the world has been making these proclamations except the Jehovah’s witness organization.

          However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 2 Thessalonians 2

          • Thinking

            Good point …I’d missed that one

          • Lev

            Hello brother Kevin! “The saints of the Most High” (Dan 7:27), who receive power with Christ, are they “Jehovah’s Witnesses”? After all, they are elected by the Most High! (Mk.10; 40, Mt. 20:23). Revelation 7: 9- “A people that no one can count …” are “Jehovah’s Witnesses”?
            BT rights is that ALL religions are FALSE and Satan has tried to plant his own protege in each. Satan’s goal is to collect, seduce and destroy the “saints.” But whom does he collect? (2 Thess.2: 9-12) – “perishing”! Lawless people receive power and become “idols” for believers who do not the will of the god but the devil! “Spiritual Temple” also becomes an idol! And the people of God become “apostates” (Jer. 7: 4-15). The people of God today are scattered all over the Earth (Ezekiel 34: 3-6,10,12) until the coming of Jehovah’s Day. He can not be in some kind of religion or organization, so as not to be destroyed by Satan. He appears only after the overthrow of the wicked (Isa.66: 7-9, Revelation 14: 1) And before that the people are persecuted right in the Temple from their own brethren (Isa.66: 2-6) But Jehovah knows his own by deciding to write His Law On the hearts of his faithful servants, the Creator reliably hid “wheat” to “harvest” from the religious wrongdoers (2 Cor.11: 13-15) Lev.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              It’s kinda paradoxical That GOD’s people themselves are the sauce claiming a false parousia back in 1914 and yet at the same time they have the truth but this is what the scriptures attests to which confirms they are Jehovah’s people in which the Apostle Paul is speaking about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

              KINGDOM BULLETIN #3

              “THE RESURRECTION HAS ALREADY OCCURRED”

              Interestingly, in the first century certain men had deviated from the truth – in other words, they became apostate. Paul even named two of them by name; namely, Hymenaeus and Philetus, and he warned the brothers that they were subverting the faith of some by claiming that the resurrection had already occurred. So, the bold apostle cited the arguments of the apostates. In other letters Paul taught that the first resurrection would occur during the parousia; hence, the apostle refuted the arguments of those apostates, for the benefit of the brothers back then.

              In a strange irony, the Watchtower teaches the very same thing as those first century apostates. It claims the first resurrection has already occurred, supposedly in 1918. Of course, the Society backs up that assertion by claiming that the parousia began in 1914 and that the day of Jehovah is here.

              In other words, the Society teaches that all the chosen ones who have died in Christ have already been gathered to him.

              This, though, is exactly what Paul warned the brothers about at 2 Thessalonians 2:1:2 regarding the operation of error emanating from the man of lawlessness, where he wrote: “However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.”
              There is only one source in modern times that makes public statements regarding the presence of Christ having begun and “the day of Jehovah is here.” It is the Watchtower. For the past century (even longer considering that the C.T. Russell originally claimed the presence began in 1874) the Watchtower has been declaring that the presence has begun, that the chosen ones have been gathered together to him, that the day of Jehovah is here. And no one can honestly deny that Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Bible Student forerunners have periodically been shaken from their reason by such claims.Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/kingdom-bulletin-3/

            • Lev

              Dear Brother Kevin, I was in the organization for 25 years, and on the Internet-8 months. I do not have enough money to prove that “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is an ordinary religious and financial corporation, presumptuous and illegally taking the name of the long-suffering, but not abolishing punishment of the almighty God of Jehovah! And Thess.2: 2-3, so long before Russell, it was claimed by Adventists (Barbour). I’m just surprised that you have been on this site for so long, you know so much-and you believe in the God-chosenness of such a lying organization !!! Kevin, you need to believe in Christ, and not the “Slave”, you need to eat a spiritual food-the Bible, and not the poison from another “pseudo-anointed” messenger .armageddon! In any earthly organization Satan’s agent is sitting-it’s a fact!Yours faithfully Lev.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The Coming Change in Leadership
              Excerpt:
              In the 12th chapter of Luke, verses 42-47, Jesus spoke about two classes of slaves that would be given authority over his disciples. The one slave would be judged as faithful to his assignment and the other slave would be judged as an evil slave. That both slaves wield authority over God’s spiritual house is evident by the fact that Jesus said in the 48th verse: “Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him.”

              So, according to Jesus’ illustration, even the unfaithful slave is in charge up until the time of Christ’s arrival for inspection.
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/coming-change-in-leadership/

              Read a lot more>
              Search results for: The faithful slave and an evil slaves.
              https://e-watchman.com/?s=The+faithful+slave+in+an+evil+slaves

            • Thinking

              Levt you are preparing to go underground with the brothers….from your last post????( or are you??) .so this talk from you is very very confusing

            • Lev

              From Russia with love, dear Thinking! “Brothers” go underground because they are afraid of losing their idol-the “visible organization” (this word is not in the Bible) and the “Slaveholder” (Christians have one teacher-Christ (Mt.23: 8) .I do not hide anywhere, So they hate me and violate the law of God (Mk.10: 40, Mf.20: 23 Mf.5: 44-47.) For 8 months I have been struck from the lists of the living by my brothers, including 15 by my relatives. This is the people of God Or the devil ??? – (1 John 2: 10-11.) And I love All the brothers and sisters who are NOT IN THE WORDS, AND IN THE WORK executes it! (1 John 3: 18; 4: 20-21) ” Jehovah’s Witnesses “fulfilled their mission as did Israel (Jer. 18: 7-17) More than a year in Russia, brothers and sisters in the sermon Officially! Do not mention their belonging to the Holy Name. And you say that this is the PEOPLE OF GOD? It’s good that you say this, but the last word is for Christ! (Mt.7: 21-23). ​​Therefore, Revelation! 8: 4! And the people of God will be born later and it will be chosen by God himself, and not by ” Slaveholder “-Opk.12: 5. Sincerely, Lev.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi Lev, happy to keep reading your posts and you are so right when you say, ‘the last word is for Christ’! Very True! Also, it’s good to hear you say, ‘I do not hide anywhere’. Stay true to yourself Lev and what you believe in your heart despite the frightening situation of being branded an ‘extremist’. Luke 12:4,5. Psalms118:6. Thinking if you. Stay safe and True.

            • Thinking

              Jesus fled when he was in danger at times..as did the apostles and many of the phrophets….I’ll leave this and further conversations here Lev…as I don’t know what is going on here….

            • Thinking

              Then why have you chosen to be a witness then Lev?

          • Nigel

            Actually, the (full) Preterist movement claims that ALL prophecy has already been fulfilled, beginning in 70CE, so that would include “the Day of Christ” (“Jehovah” in the NWT) mentioned in 2 Thess 2.

            Preterism has influenced the doctrine of the Catholic AND the Protestant churches and there are others such as Adventists and Rastafarians who make the same claim.

            Obviously, the claim was also being made by one/some back in Thessalonica.

            Whilst the WTS would appear to be the most vocal in pushing this myth in modern history, it still annuls the notion that the claim is unique to JWs.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              When Nelson H. Barbour expectations in respect to a invisible parousia were not realized he came to his senses and abandon the whole idea back in 1883

              Excerpt:
              By 1883 Barbour abandoned belief in an invisible presence and returned to more standard Adventist doctrine wears Russell continued to promote the doctoring and of course the jehovah’s witnesses organization adopted it .

              although Nelson H. Barbour promoted the idea of the invisible parousia he gave it up when he didn’t realize his expectations and that’s where Charles Russell came in.

              Read more> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_H._Barbour

            • Richard Long

              But he should have known better, having already been ensnared​ in the Millerite “great disappointment” of 1843, no?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Perhaps it’s because of the foretold operation of error that Robert King brought to light in his book as well as his articles.

              Read more> Search results for: Operation of error:
              https://e-watchman.com/?s=Operation+of+error

              Jehovah himself has become king.
              http://jehovah-is-king.com/?s=Operation+of+error

            • Richard Long

              I guess. Hey, I joined Amway twice, so I know from fool.

          • Lev

            Mt.16: 18: “I will create My Church …” The Church of Christ is a great shrine and today it is hidden from evil eyes. Who belongs to her, only Christ knows. He will show it in His SECOND COMING (“The Revelation of the Sons of God.”) The symbolic “Bride” of Christ is people who have the Spirit of Christ! They live near by dreams, do not respond evil to evil, do not curse anyone, try to live righteously, according to God’s commandments, quiet, meek, ready to share their last with the needy. But they are always adamant in matters of righteousness and in all they try to praise and thank God. Do you know such a person? So before you, the CANDIDATE is a member of the Church of God, if you remain faithful to Christ until the end! “The gates of hell will not prevail against it ..” – because it is not united into any formal organized structure, does not have real estate, bank accounts, land (“not of this world”). It can not be implemented by agents of Satan, bribed, corrupted, destroyed. “You are PETER” ..- these words indicate that the spiritual Church of Christ consists of ordinary people who will win a victory in spiritual confrontations. The Scripture speaks and experience shows that today the people of Christ are found among different faiths and outside of them. The “great multitude” (Rev. 7: 9) is the people of God, invited righteous people to the wedding feast SON (Rev. 19: 9), and calls on GOD not in groups, coffers, but individually! The people of God are not those who say, “We are anointed, true religion, the only channel …”, and the one where they strive for righteousness, piety, holiness, and humility. And only at the end of his journey the Christian receives from GOD a testimony. Stephen saw Christ not after “anointing,” but before his death! Paul received a “crown of life” certificate not on his way to Damascus, but at the end of his life. Ilya received a revelation that “he will be lifted to heaven” at the end of his life. Enoch “received a testimony” that pleased God before his death. Today, the people of God, the bearer of God’s Spirit in the world, calls for repentance (Rev. 22:17) and shows love for God and neighbor, and does not differ in the presence of magnificent rituals, halls, “tongues”, miracles … About the people of God in the Bible It is written: “1JOHN 2: 3-6” Sincerely Lev.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Lev said ” Today, the people of God, the bearer of God’s Spirit in the world, calls for repentance (Rev. 22:17) and shows love for God and neighbor, and does not differ in the presence of magnificent rituals, halls, “tongues”, miracles … About the people of God in the Bible It is written: “1JOHN 2: 3-6” end quote.
              Now please stop and ask yourself honestly- which religious group in the world today are fulfilling those scriptures?
              Now if you investigate this question I had posed to you; you will surely come to the conclusion that the Jehovah’s witness organization to date are the only ones not only using god’s great name but are professing it on the streets and from door to door and also to their neighbors not to mention the many translations of the holy scriptures .

      • Richard Long

        It does have to be His house. The questions are: do we have a correct understanding of WHEN He will discipline His house or AT WHAT TIME His name will be put upon his people. Robert has addressed this, and the answer is not what we have believed peri-delusion. I had simply not come across it yet, being newly introduced to this vast library, and I myself am in great inner turmoil over the reading of it.

        https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

        This link was provided to me by DA.

        • Thinking

          Welcome to the house of turmoil brother ..haha..nobody has everything all correct brother..otherwise why would we need the two Witness ( whoever they turn out to be)… and the Holy Spirit out pouring of joel upon us…..I guess until then we won’t have every thing made clear…but the important things are clear…where his house is….and who his people are that bear his name…and he will discipline us…or is disciplining us …I cannot help you with your turmoil as I sit on the same bench as you…now I listen and learn from both Perimeno and Robert..the society but most of all I have to rely on prayer and the scriptures …neither of these men have it all right..otherwise they would be perfecto ..lol…
          You have faith Richard..and that can move a mountain….so don’t despair…the apostles were in turmoil UNTIL Jesus returned..so why should we be be any different …. I don’t have the answers to your questions….and it’s confusing when two invited ones…such as Perimeno and Robert disagree on a point….as when you study each point of view they give ….each one sounds so correct…so that just leaves me standing back and wondering why ???..so I just take in each view and have a wait and see attitude…..sorry but I don’t trust any body Richard…and certainly not myself….but I am deeply grateful for how both these men help in opening up the scriptures a little more ..for me all the time…….

    • Richard Long

      Being new (read that recently disabused of my delusion and still raw from the stripping away of it),
      and damned if I’m not defending Robert when I’m most certainly not qualified to do so.

      I must assert here that I have NEVER perceived Robert or anyone I’ve brushed up against on this site, maintaining that the WT is Jehovah’s organization. Generally, we decry the pain of our discovery such is not the case! Robert has, in his essays, repeatedly driven home the point that the WT, (The Organization , the body corporate, the GB, the leadership , etc.) are USURPERS that have hijacked the faith of millions. To THE WORLD, and to those remaining captive, they are Jehovah’s Organization, because that is precisely how they advertise themselves. But such is not the case with us! That you find disagreement here with your very correct point that the WT is NOT Jehovah’s organization presents a cognitive conflict for me, for I hear you telling me most here disagree with you when I perceive all I have come in contact with as not just agreeing with you, but wholeheartedly so. As our brother DA might express it:

      Congregations = Jehovah’s PEOPLE
      Leadership = APOSTATE USURPERS
      WT HQ = Babylon the Great

      Might I suggest this cognitive dissonance may be created by expectation. Robert’s book is a collection of scholarly formal essays targeting a specific audience, namely JW’s wondering why their religion is such a hot mess, JW’s recently “red-pilled” (thank you DA for brilliant Matrix reference) from the delusion and those unfamiliar with JW’s looking to see what the fuss is all about. (I myself found it amidst exJW and JWhater materials when I was in the “Does God even exist? phase of the blowback from having 1914 deconstructed by Daniel Genser’s essay). The commentary are informal essays reflecting what is most pressing Robert’s mind, often the daily hypocrisy dispensed in the commentary accompanying the daily text, delivered in shorthand, JWspeak, if you will, the audience being experienced persons such as ourselves. If we are expecting book level essays in the commentary we may often be disappointed, as book level essays are a labor of weeks, not hours. This (JWspeak) also accounts for the impression left on you that some under-appreciate the role of Jesus in the outworking of Jehovah’s purposes. We ALL KNOW how the will of Jehovah gets carried out, and Jesus knows we know, and we know that he knows that we know. Lets be adults about it, already. My estimation of Jesus, given reflection on his recorded words and deeds, is that he would rather we not give him all praise and credit that is his due, if we can at all possibly lavish it on his Father instead, as he both did and showed us to do. I’m guessing the thought “that’s not fair” has never passed through his mind.

      Regarding articles of faith we share or do not share look at Burt’s past comments, especially those to me recently. Faith is a journey, not a destination. This site IS NOT the founding of a new religion.

      Regarding Naaman, we are all realizing the implications of the delusion now lifted on our understandings and expectations of what our worship ought to be and under what ways and means Jehovah and His Son (put that there just for you) will conduct judgement and consequence.. We are all aware there is a lot to sort out, the consensus being the most sound course of action is to suspend all expectations.

      To sum up, Robert and WE in general, assert that Jehovah’s Witnesses are Jehovah’s PEOPLE, his special possession, those HE has drawn to himself. We are they that seek to worship the one true God in spirit and truth and have made public declaration and dedication to that end. The WT leadership having stood themselves up from among us, have grappled for and seized authority over the minds and bodies of Jehovah’s PEOPLE by deceptive means, namely the operation of error, are shown by Robert to be the apostasy foretold by Paul. Jehovah’s Ownership of the WT, as you see it used here, is a reference to his legal title to the property and assets dedicated to him by solemn ceremony and both public and personal prayer currently under control of the apostate usurpers who commit their own sins in Jehovah’s name, leaving a stain of reproach upon us all.

      Did I “good lawyer” that up enough for ya? I pray you are not personally a lawyer. It should be noted that, were I an avenging angel and had the freedom yo choose, my first objective would be lawyers.

      Kevin, if I have gone to far, PLEASE say something!

      controlled

      • Thinking

        how can we judge who will not repent….it would seem possible that some will..( GB) …..so I do not stand by the comment that all so called leaders are ( tho I do not view them as such )..apostate…nor WT is BTG…

        We do not know who will repent and who will not…At no time have I ever thought the WT as part BTG…and if I thought Robert supported this belief I would leave this page straight away..
        Have I missed some thing all these years ??? Or perhaps misunderstood you brother….which is easily done on my part..

        • Richard Long

          I don’t know anything that you don’t know, if that’s what your asking. I’m reasoning that IF BTG has not yet fallen ( ie Rev 14 and 18 are yet future) , and IF BTG is world empire of false religion, and IF we have morphed into an idolatrous false religion. perhaps, maybe we are part of BTG. I hate thinking it as much as you hate reading it, and Robert must be removed from any consideration of the matter unless he speaks on it himself. My defense of him was not and cannot be taken as sparking FOR him.

          • Thinking

            I think we will fall or be brought down before BTG…

            • Richard Long

              This is Kevin’s wheelhouse. He will know whereto look.

            • Thinking

              Look to the scriptures brother…

            • Richard Long

              So the JW.org

              http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012681#h=61

              says this is the order of events, so consider the source

              FIVE EVENTS TO COME:
              Proclamation of “Peace and security!”

              Nations attack and destroy “Babylon the Great”

              Attack on Jehovah’s people

              War of Armageddon

              Satan and his demons are abyssed

              you are of the opinion that the WT is dissolved at what point in this progression?

            • Thinking

              But where is our discipline in that schedule,…

            • Thinking

              What I’m thinking brother is we will be disciplined ..sort of go down…to the degree he seems fit..as to how much I don’t know,…..and many will be confused because BTG is still
              going strong ….so where do we fit in that schedule .

              …hey I’m just asking ..as I’m not sure myself….it feels like we are being disciplined now..? ..with Russia..with the ARC, with china and Africa banning us like Russia…with losing millions upon millions in pay outs..losing branches and KHs like never before …big drop in percentages in lots of countries…sure feels like something is happening to his household….

            • Jeremiah 42:2
              and said to Jeremiah the prophet: “Hear, please, our request for favor, and pray in our behalf to Jehovah your God, in behalf of all this remnant, for just a few of many are left, as you can see.

              Ephesians 6:8
              for you know that whatever good each one does, he will receive this back from Jehovah, whether he is a slave or a freeman.

              Matthew 25:23
              His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’

              Revelation 10:7
              But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

            • Thinking

              Thanks LK..I,get that….
              So I’m gathering this remnant..is attacked after BTG is….but our discipline is happening before BTG goes down .. that’s the way I’m seeing it…at this stage of the game…..:)

            • Dz5007

              Hi, Obadiah 12 You should not gloat over your brother’s day on the day of his misfortune,You should not rejoice over the people of Judah on the day of their perishing,And you should not speak so arrogantly on the day of their distress. 13 You should not come into the gate of my people in the day of their disaster,You should not gloat over his calamity in the day of his disaster,And you should not lay your hands on his wealth in the day of his disaster. 14 You should not stand at the crossroads to slaughter his escapees,And you should not hand over his survivors in the day of distress. 15 For the day of Jehovah against all the nations is near.As you have done, so it will be done to you.The way you treated others will come back on your own head.” The book of Obadiah sheds some light on that. Judgement starts with the house of Jehovah then Jehovah turns on Christendom for enjoying our misfortune and by extension BTG.

            • Thinking

              Okay I’ll check out Obadiah again….we must be close then…

            • Richard Long

              The question I am seeking an answer to is:

              IF BTG has not yet fallen ( ie Rev 14 and 18 are yet future) , and IF BTG is world empire of false religion, and IF we have morphed into an idolatrous false religion. should we consider ourselves part of BTG, or is our being a people of Jehovah’s personal possession enough of a firewall to allow us to consider ourselves exempt from this designation.

              Any help is appreciated.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              When Will Jehovah’s Witnesses Go into Captivity to Babylon the Great?.
              Excerpt:
              the future desolation of the holy place will bring about the circumstance, whereby Jehovah’s people will be oppressed by the eighth king and the harlot, Babylon the Great.

              Since it can be easily demonstrated that the eighth king has not commenced his reign for the symbolic “one hour”, the command to “get out of her my people” has not been heralded. Clearly, at that critical point during God’s judgment getting out of Babylon the great will not have anything to do with discarding false religious doctrines. It will involve accepting the Kingdom of God as it will manifest itself then.

              As for the question posed by the Watchtower: “When were God’s people held captive by Babylon the Great?” It is the wrong question. More correctly, we should ask: When are God’s people going to be held captive by Babylon the Great?

              The answer is, just as God entered into judgment with the Jews by means of the sword, famine and pestilence, with the authentic opening of the symbolic seals of the Disclosure Christ will commence the judgment of the house of God, accompanied by war, food shortages and global pandemics. The worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be suppressed, which is the underlying theme of the prophecy of Joel. And by that means Babylon will prevail over the people of God until such time as the Greater Cyrus stands up as the deliverer.
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-babylon/

            • Brian

              Hi Kevin, when did JW’s or bible students escape from Babylon the great to be seen as to be held captive at a later date? I am not even sure that Babylon the great only represents “false religion” exclusively, there seems to be too many other elements of it which are not associated with religious beliefs. I am wondering if it is not more of the whole system including the false religious element. I have often wondered how so many people as is described in Revelation have gotten so much wealth from “false religion”, I just can’t make that connection and it should be in plain sight.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              To my knowledge the modern-day organization of Jehovah’s witnesses has never been in captivity and is yet a future event however the watchtower will have you believe they were in captivity various times.

              When Will Jehovah’s Witnesses Go into Captivity to Babylon the Great?.
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-babylon/

              Now regarding your second question Does Babylon the great only represents false religion ? Yes but also please keep in mind that would include any and all persons as well as governments that support false religion (with the exception of the true faith of Jesus Christ.)

              But the rest of the people who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands; they did not stop worshipping the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. And they did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their sexual immorality nor of their thefts.
              Revelation 9:20-21

              Excerpt:
              Babylon the Great – What is it?.
              So what does Babylon the Great really represent? It represents what the Watchtower has said all along. Babylon the Great symbolizes the world empire of false religion. That is – all organized religion (with the exception of the true faith of Jesus Christ.) How may we be sure?
              Read more for the reasons why> https://e-watchman.com/babylon-the-great-what-is-it/

              Read a lot more> Search results for: The harlot https://e-watchman.com/?s=The+harlot

            • Brian

              Hi Kevin, I have been thinking about this some more and re reading the scriptures about it, also looking at Babylon or Babel for all of what it was, indeed it was the place where all false religions were formed or the basis of them are traced to it but it still seems to have more to it than just that alone after all it is credited as being the “Cradle of Civilisation” so it it also responsible for the system of the world and when the Kingdom does arrive it will overtake the system of the world. In all that is written about the destruction of the political arrangements and the “ungodly” people there is nothing about the actual removal of the system and in the Kingdom I don’t imagine that there will be any vestige of how the system operated in the Kingdom. The very reason that God dispersed the people of Babel in the first place was that they were building a city and not spreading out into the rest of the world. Now the world is being “globalised” and a direct one line of communication has enabled mankind to turn the whole planet into what affectively the city of Babel was, it will come to its pinicle when the beast arrives on the scene and makes everyone worship this concept of “oneness”. When I say the system I mean everything that takes place on the planet, commerce, trade, religion, education, etc, etc, etc.

            • Dz5007

              The whole world will punished and made to suffer. No one is exempted. JW’s for our unfaithfulness. (Doesn’t mean we are false religion, just means we lost our way.) The world for being inherently wicked. Our punishment is to correct and teach us in the way we should walk. Jehovah said that a father who doesn’t discipline his son doesn’t love them. So out of love for us he does this because we loved his name. It’s all about his name. Stay close to it.

            • Dz5007

              The Empire hasn’t fallen yet because we fall first. Only after we fall then Jehovah turns on BTG because they enjoy our misfortune and punish us.

        • Richard Long

          please look at it again and see if the adjustments more genuinely reflect your view.

          • Thinking

            No you didn’t …don’t think that..we are just chewing the fat..trying to work things out…and I’m sure even us here will be surprised how things may turn out

            • Richard Long

              I mean it was too sweeping an argument, too broad in scope, and posted prematurely. I’m confused as to why the compulsion to address that subject, by that particular poster, with such determination. Really need to reflect on that.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I dont know anything. When I read all these arguements I can see the reasoning and the balance. Everyone has something to add. Yet ultimately, there always seems to be a difference of opinion somewhere, and sometimes, even that holds water and adds to my confusion. And then on top of all that, I cannot recall who said what. But I have come up with a solution for myself at least…if Jehovah wanted people to have no choice but to believe the truth, the bible would be written in such a way that there could be no doubt. But it’s not. It’s writing of prophesy is so obscure that few can read it, and of those few, fewer still can expound it and do so in honesty and with a clear conscience, giving the glory to Jehovah. What is clear, is what we need to do get saved, and opportunity to have faith in the promise and develop the love for it in our hearts. The test is not knowledge, but faith. Not prediction, but certainty that it will come no matter how, no matter when. Added to that, for the seers, there is a smattering of insight that when given freely, helps build faith. If there is a person who knows all that the future holds, and how it will occur, then let him stand up and be counted. When the scriptures say, be on the watch therefore, and to stay awake, I do not understand that as having to know all the detail, the chronology, who is what beast, and their financial assets. No. My view, and it is only my view, is that it means to have your faith, love, hope and charity honed and sharpened, because when someone is coming to do you harm, or tempt you, or break your faith, it matters not who they are, or where they come from. But it does demand of you that you keep those attributes sharp and ready to defend….what? Faith and love, in and for Jehovah.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Is it hear, hear? Or here, here? Whichever is correct is what I am saying to your comment.

            • Jamie Mac

              They say that a lot in Parliament and in the House of Lords here in the UK. I think they have to say that as it’s in their contracts. Most of the time I’m sure the Lords say it regardless if they believe the current topic of conversation or not….. probably keeps them awake. Take a look at the televised sessions of the House of Lords and you will see what I mean.

              In answer to your question, which is a good one , here is a link to that very same question.

              https://www.grammarly.com/blog/here-here-vs-hear-hear/

            • Richard Long

              Burt’s advice is the BEST ADVICE in just about everything. You consistently show me that my faith is far more than I ever imagined it was and my knowledge far, far, far less!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              so true…Jesus likened us with sheep and when i observe my own sheep..i find them to be calm friendly animals who trust me and follow me everywhere i go..and its true..they know my voice..but if someone else try to call on them they wont go…the truth is actually simple and we are all gathered together here on this site because we heard His voice…i belive the great Shepherd has “called” and we know His “voice” (the truth) when we heard it

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Arvid

              It’s really great sometimes to relate to the truth in simple terms like you have just done.

              I have sheep at the end of my garden, and they are a noisy lot. My son used to moan at this time of the year as all the spring lambs would be bounding about making lots of noise an having fun. That will be just like us in the kingdom 🙂

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hello again Jamie 🙂
              Nice reply…i love to dream about the coming paradise in that way..as i have said before..i intend to go looking for all of you fine brothers and sisters when this polluted and evil world is gone..there on the” other side” is where the real life begins and i belive it will turn out to be even better than we are able to imagine…and as you said..little spring lambs running about having fun…a lot of animals seems to enjoy life ..thats the way they are created and so are we…and so much more when Jehovah is going to bless his whole creation again and restore everything to normal…hehe..no wonder the whole creation will cry out in joy and the greatest universal happiness ever…angels-humans and animals ..all tre groups of living creatures in one big united celebration …never happened before in that scale..we must do our very best to be found worthy of living there and be part of that..faith,hope and most of all love

            • Richard Long

              Arvid, please help! I’m struggling with why I hear the Great Shepherd’s voice in the message the JW’s brought to me ring more true that in the message the Baptist’s brought to me and hear no shepherds voice at all in the message the Roman’s bring to me. And if ALL of them are pretenders, does that just mean the JW’s have been the most skilled pretenders or is there something to be said about me not yet being ABLE to recognize the Shepherds voice when I hear it, or maybe I have not ever heard it yet?

              The name of Jehovah calls to me, the self-sacrifice of Jesus calls to me, the basic truth calls to me, but I don’t have relationships. I have alliances, at best. I walk my life divided off from myself, so, perhaps, pretending is all I know? Or is this condition/circumstance undergoing correction for me personally just now?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Dear brother…you are not alone in this..”For an abundance of wisdom brings an abundance of frustration, so that whoever increases knowledge increases pain” Ecclesiastes 1:18..
              Jehovah has an organisation and it is the one and only …it is not manmade…JW is His people…not His organisation…His organisation is Holy and clean…His people is not clean yet..this is part of Gods house that Jesus will clean and purify (seems like it has started).
              Jehovahs House is first of all the anointed ones.
              But…i belive some of His people are scattered about not only among JW…Jehovah and Jesus knows very well who and where they are…
              (Jeremiah 35 …about the Rechabites)
              If all the anointed where only among JW…than it would be very easy to find them and know who they are…it is obvious that we do NOT know who and where they are..only Jehovah and Jesus know…satan do not know..Jehovah have hidden them Rev.12:6
              Matt.25:31-40…notice when you read this that they was not even aware that they had done well to anointed ones…not until Jesus reveal it for them 🙂
              There is no doubt that Jehovah has used JW to gather a lot of sheep ..but He can use whatever he choose to find all his sheep…he can even let the 99 stay in one place to go far away another place just to rescue that last 1%

            • Richard Long

              Forgive me, I must have order to function. So then..
              .
              Jehovah’s organization may only refer to Jehovah’s loyal spirit sons.?

              Jehovah’s house may refer to those anointed of which there may yet be thousands or millions, SOME of which are already calling on the name of Jehovah and privileged to participate in the global preaching work so the name of Jehovah is known worldwide?

              Meanwhile SOME, possibly the greater number, of the anointed are deposited elsewhere, hidden in plain sight, as it were, in order that Satan and his horde are foiled in their efforts to find and destroy them before the appointed time for them to be revealed?

              These could very well be hidden amongst the Babylonish Religions, hence the need to come out when called at a future time, but, being anointed, they know individually who they are but do not profess it because they are undercover?

              And this cover is SO deep that in order to maintain it they observe the idolatrous customs of their cover publicly, abstaining from the Lords Evening Meal, or at least observe it privately?

              And when they escape BTG, they will bring hangers on with them, just as JW anointed have brought us along?

              And when the call does come, the final number will be sealed, the first Resurrection will occur and those entering the marriage will do so?

              And if millions were anointed but not called to the final number admitted, does weeping and gnashing of teeth mean permanent death of just a reassignment to paradise?

              Does this mean the operation of error is working on ALL anointed, All of Jehovah’s house, or just the segment calling on his name?

              TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH! TO MUCH!

              May I please have a lobotomy now?

            • Thinking

              Hahah…well stop and think about it …would an annoited One or invited one stay or belong in a house of faith that teaches the despicable false lie of the trinity…..Jehovah would make clear to any invited one the basic doctrines of truth…because he REQUIRES these ones to have accurat knowledge..And nobody can come to him unless he is drawn ….you are having information overload brother…it’s normal…
              Besides he told everyone to get out of BTG and he will take them in….they have to get out of BTG first..
              Personally I think many discount the amazimg work Brother Russel did in that…he could only have led ones out of BTG by Jehovah’s spirit…yes he said and did many things wrong..but he acheived greatly what Jehovah used him for…
              He separated a group of people and directed the way ….away from false basic doctrines…and into a house that Jehovah could use to make his name known and preach the good news ..and gather invited ones…
              .
              How can Jehovah’s spirit be fully active or even partially active on some one that does not even have basic doctrines sorted in their heart and mind?..how can they claim to be annoited yet REMAIN in false doctrines ????…..I don’t get that ?

            • Richard Long

              I have no answers, only questions. Last week I had answers too, and they sounded like what you just said. If you read and got the sense of the article I linked, then you know why these questions are at the forefront of my mind again. And to be fair I am attempting to read Perimeno on the weight of your suggestion, though I find the presentation cluttered and his writing style requiring more concentration than I am accustomed to. But for YOU, because I value YOU, I am trying.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Maybe this is the reason why there is set aside 1000 years for mankind to be restored ?…try one bite at time…as you know there is going to be 144 000 anointed in total.
              Most of them is already sleeping in death…the rest of them seems to be 7000 living when Jesus arrive.Who are they and where?i guess many are among JW..but there might be some outside too…partaking in the Lords Evening Meal is not a guaranty of who is anointed…the anointing is by Holy spirit.Act.2:2-3…120 selected and anointed by the Holy spirit…but the same happened to some “outside”of Jehovahs people…even the apostle Peter became confused about it ..it was hard for him to grasp…(Act.10:1-48)

            • Thinking

              Job was one of them sis…but I guess he was worshipping Jehovah the right way…more ch better than Gods own people…. very thought provoking isn’t it…and you are so right..one bite at a time..we will never digest everything at this time…I guess that’s where faith will have to step in…but at least we try..and are headed in the right direction…that narrow path sure is hard to stay on…
              I personally get very frustrated at my limited understanding …and grasp of certain things…but I know I have the basics good….the rest will come when it needs too…and as long as I do my bit and never stop searching and requesting him to help me discern and not be deceived…
              You will be okay Richard…:)

            • Richard Long

              I guess i keep thinking if I ask the right question the right way from the right person, I will find the one key that unlocks everything. Clearly it just does not work that way.

              So, my one bite of the elephant:

              It has always been obvious to me there would be those partaking that were not actually anointed. The hump I am trying to get over is that there would/could be authentic anointed not partaking, bondage or illness preventing it notwithstanding. This is WT delusion? Or would “bondage” in BTG count? Of my own thinking, I reasoned Cornelius and his household and those anointed with them would naturally take up the custom as commanded by Jesus upon their learning of it.

              I will tell you now as a fact that one more than one occasion in my life one of my “churchy” acquaintances, genuinely sincere in their beliefs, has plainly told me they “have the holy spirit” and my instinct has been not only incredulousness, but disgust. Could this be more WT programming? Is it possible I have denied one or more of Christ’s brothers?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              I belive, and this is only my opinion,i could be wrong…that those who are the chosen ones/anointed…are persons with Christ-like character ..loving,humble,kind,meek and caring humans..the last lesson Jesus gave his apostles before he was arrested is maybe the most important for his spiritual brothers to live by…He did what the lowest slave supposed to do..washed their feet..and this was right after they had an big argue about who was the greatest among them…so if someone boast of being anointed ore act like a boss ..than its not likely they are chosen..

              For us it is a good thing to do good to everyone…Jesus even said we should love our enemies …it is difficult but the safes and best way of living…and if we do so than maybe Jesus will say to us one day: “For i became hungry and you gave me something to eat ;I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a STRANGER and you received me hospitably…………”(Matt.25:35-40)

              Than we will be surprised because we actually do not know when we did that..
              His answer is that we have done it to one of the last of His brothers…

              I wonder…who is one of the last of Jesu brothers?
              If everyone knew who they are…than we would surround them and do good to them all the time…
              But than on the other hand we would not be surprised if Jesus later on told us that we did well to one of his latest brothers…we would say:yes i know…i knew who all of your latest brothers where all the time…no…we do not know…thats why He said “i was a stranger”

              When i think about it ..its the best way…because it gives us an wonderful opportunity to prove to Jesus himself that we can act just like the good samaritan…
              to do good to someone because of true love…in the same manner He wold do..

              THIS i belive is the key you looking for…agape love open up all doors
              Jehovah is love in person…we are part of it ..created in His image..
              we are all damaged by sin but this is already in progress to be restored because of Jesu sacrifice…He is the door..love is the key…use it and it will be opened up for you 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Then I have already held this key for many years, but only recently been unreserved in my use of it as I have actively attempted to strip away the indifference I had allowed to grow in my heart. I tell you, over the past year, something really unexpected is happening in me, and I think I will never understand it unless I just let it happen. I also tell you that this kind of surrender is completely counter nature for me personally, hence the mental pain I am under. Thank you for spending the effort to help me.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              There was to brothers who went out in field-service going from door to door …as you maybe know..i live in Norway with high mountains and they were going on a very steep long winding road…after a while one of them said “i cant go all the way in one set..you are stronger than me..just leave me and go in your own speed ”
              The young brother answered “no i rather walk in your speed,lets walk together and take our time because we are spiritual soldiers and a soldier should not leave anyone behind”
              So if you feel the road is steep than i will be happy to walk by your side in your speed because after all we are soldiers..and not only that but brothers in faith as well…lean on me if you like..and if this road later on get slippery,than maybe i kan grab on to you to keep my balanse 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              I was speaking about Ewatchman the other day to a witness friend of mine and he wanted to know what was being said by ones on Ewatchman and I happened to mention you Arvid and how very Christlike you are and I said I wouldn’t be surprised if you were called, invited but I told my JW friend how no one would know as you would never admit it and reading this post of your’s it’s like you’re describing yourself Arvid but without knowing it! Don’t want to embarrass you Arvid but you really are a good example of being humble and loving.

            • Nigel

              “and the greatest of these is love”

            • Jamie Mac

              I’m totally in agreement with you Burt. Like you I find these detailed discussions fascinating, after all we all would like to know how the GT will start and when it will start and so on .

              At the end of the day though I take more comfort from the simple things, for example Nigel’s comments and Arvid’s comments abut the sheep and Francis’s comments about learning the real truth in the kingdom without distraction. We all strive to meet the requirements of being a subject of Jehovah’s kingdom and in the end it will be our faith in Jehovah and his son Jesus that probably determine out futures. Maybe I am being too simplistic.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              You are right Jamie…here is why..”Than he said:Jesus,remember me when you get into your Kingdom!” (Luk.23:42-43)…so simple but yet so powerful…he had faith

            • Richard Long

              agree with the comfort of simplicity. However, it is not enough for me to simply know that I have been an idiot. I must know exactly how deep, wide, and long i have been an idiot.

            • Thinking

              You have NOT Been an idiot…no way!!!…I too agree with Jamie’s thoughts of knowing things in the kingdom as you Americans call it…(.over here in Australia we say the new system) ..with out distractions…ooh how I yearn for that…but for now I have to make sure I get to that new system and am not misled..or deceived…for If eve was thourghly deceived We all can be…if the chosen can be deceived..what hope have I got???
              So I get what you are saying…

            • Richard Long

              Then replace the word idiot with fool in both instances, for I have certainly been fooled.

            • Thinking

              You know this being fooled has given us all an opurtunity to show Jehovah we love truth…we could have stumbled..as I actually did for awhile…but we are allowing ourselves to be refined …proving ourselves hopefully to be one
              of the wheat …
              We trusted too much Richard….and we have learnt from it….
              I remember a very dear old brother who is now dead..he was very down to earth…but he didn’t know what we know now as it does not seem to have been the time to at that time…but he would always say from the platform…

              “Trust no body…NOBODY!!! ( he used to really stress that word )…. you can only trust Jehovah and Jesus..Be prepared for every one else to let you down”

              He also said something which I always felt was humorous but was dead right.!!!

              ” if some one was to smack you in the mouth every time you entered this hall…would that stop you from coming to his table…..NO!…you would have to take that smack in the mouth and stay at his house…”
              This brother I greatly respected as he lived all his life in a divided house..as his wife was disfellowshipped …and bought up his three daughters in the truth ..always fighting against his wife’s negativity…unfaithfullness…etc as he told me ..he was always in the dog house at home…
              We have just been smacked in the mouth brother …and now are like that Gideon soldier drinking from the stream …always looking about not understanding many things,,,so thus trusting no one..just relying on Jehovah and Jesus…:).

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Beautiful comment

            • Jamie Mac

              Hey Richard, don’t be too hard on yourself. I admire your tenacity and desire to investigate every loose end or every loose word that emanates from these discussions amongst us.

              For me, when things get heavy and I have difficulty following or understanding I take a step back and go back to basics. As a result, most of the time, I can sometimes see things a lot clearer. I am not one to get heavily involved in discussions about Daniel or Revelation, instead I rely on Roberts articles which for me have Jehovah’s approval, and comments from people such as you Richard so don’t stop being who you are 🙂

              In the end Jehovah will examine our hearts and yours in definitely in the right condition from my viewpoint.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Jehovah knows where his people are and so do the angels. The remnant of Christ’s Bride is in the JW’s for sure, but the remainder of “my people” are clearly in BTG or otherwise as B’Kevin pointed out so clearly why would Jehovah be calling “my people” out of BTG if they were not there? You are just as safe within the JW’s as you are out of JW’s, maybe more so. If you are unsure where you should be at this time, stay where you are. The angels know where you are, and they will direct you in the right direction when the time comes.

            • Richard Long

              You are saying the need of self to be group identified is more of the hard to find and root out delusion echo. If we believe, but recognize we are not anointed, we are not contained in the vessel anyway and the angels will find us and gather us for judgement wherever we may be. However, said judgement will still be on the basis of how we treated those in the vessel. Is this an accurate restatement of the point you would like me to take home?

            • Francis Bencharles

              Hi Richard:

              No, that’s not what I said or meant. However, I’m not exactly sure what your first sentence even means, so I am want as to how to answer you. A person who is not anointed can end up being drawn to JW’s because their view of the scriptures seems to them to be closer to the truth than any of the other religions available. But, I think that there are people of true faith that are in a salvation covenant with God and Christ in BTG. If that is an untrue statement, then why does Jehovah or Jesus in Jehovah’s name proclaim “get out of her my people” to those in BTG if they are not “his people” and in a legitimate salvation covenant due to their faith in Christ’s sacrifice. Clearly, what makes them “my people” is their faith, and not what their Church teaches or what they believe in general. The Kingdom of God is where most of us will learn the “real truth” because only “real truth” will be taught in the Kingdom and people with not have to deal with the confusion of competing understandings.

              The faithful angels like Jesus apparently can read hearts and know who are persons with true faith in Jesus no matter where they may be found as of now. Richard, if I am wrong in this matter, please set me straight and tell me where I have gone astray.

            • Richard Long

              Re: first sentence. “delusion echo” is a term I am applying to all the residual “understanding” not automatically purged from our minds with the removal of the delusion. Essentially , as Brian has pointed out, the total effect in the tainting of our understanding of truth by the delusion is not immediately knowable, as the delusion permeated ALL of our understanding. Hence the need to root it out and the difficulty in doing so, as it exists in places we might not yet realize it does. None of us should imagine that with the false parousia gone, ALL misunderstanding is gone with it. My personal need to “belong” to the “true religion” may or may not find it’s source in scripture, but has certainly been fed by the WT’s teaching and culture.

              Regarding your “salvation covenant”, I’m going to have to say BULLSHIT! Non anointed persons are not party to ANY covenant in scripture unless you want to count the rainbow covenant. We are nothing more than”hangers on”, hence the desperate search to find the right garment hem to hang onto.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Francis, you said

              The Kingdom of God is where most of us will learn the “real truth” because only “real truth” will be taught in the Kingdom and people with not have to deal with the confusion of competing understandings.

              Love it 🙂

              That’s music to my ears. Can we really picture it and conjure up that image.

      • Observing Quietly

        Curious Richard Long, why you deleted Black Curtain’s words? I think he makes some good points and just like any one else on this site, they need to be considered and discussed. Consider this thought, if a large group of people began to put Robert King on a pedestal and believe him to be Jehovah’s ONLY chosen instrument of contact and started saying and doing things that Robert didn’t agree with or condone, would them taking his name and using it be acceptable to Robert King himself? Would Robert say “Oh well, they SAY they are my people, so it must be so” or would he be outraged and set about putting an end to their farce? Just because an organization (of which Jehovah doesn’t own ANY) says they are Jehovah’s Organization, doesn’t necessarily make it so. When they drag his name thru the courts as is taking place in more than a dozen countries around the word and make his name such a stench that they begin re-branding themselves (JW.Org) don’t you think that Jehovah is outraged and is setting about putting and end to their farce as well? Yes as 1 Peter 4:17 says he will start with those who CLAIM to belong to his house. Just some thoughts for you to consider.

        • Richard Long

          I did not and could not and would not delete BC’s comment. What deleted was my response. It became obvious during my exchange with Thinking that my post, as written might become a stumbling block for some or even many. It could not be edited to amend this, so I chose deletion. Never may I be a stumbling block for any of you, or a millstone around my own neck!

          • Observing Quietly

            Thank you Richard Long, you keep asking questions and keep thinking. It’s a long hard road to find the peace of God that excels all thought, but it’s there. The main thing is your relationship with Jehovah and his wonderful son-king Jesus Christ. Neither of them chastise any of us for asking questions, on the contrary, they are more upset when people don’t ask questions. Putting our thoughts out there and letting them be discussed helps so much in getting rid of the confusion, it just takes time. I know personally, after having read much of what this website talks about, I have made several adjustments in my own thinking which has resulted in better thought processes and understanding. Be patient with yourself and others as we are all wanting the same things in the end and that being a good and healthy relationship with Jehovah and Jesus.

            • Richard Long

              Oh! You’re gonna hate the steaming pile I just put in front of Kevin. I’m sick to my stomach from the implications of what these things mean and the adjustments we must make to our thought processes!

    • Richard Long

      What I had written to you before and deleted, I now find I cannot say at all. Instead I now accept the totality of your comment. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to wrestle with it for myself and thank you, Thinking, for the elbow to the ribs!.

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    Yeah indeed Robert King Strengthened my faith when I was about to become Atheist in 2010.

  • Darren Wilks

    Awesome article!

  • The Ancient Witness

    Hear! Hear! Well done Robert King. Any article that is accurate and basically sums up the entire situation with the human leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses is to be respected. Now combine what you have done here with the ever changing doctrinal lies and false hoods fed to the “sheep” on a daily/yearly basis and you would have a real masterpiece of valuable truth and a legal record. Afterall, we all know the Watchtower never was an NGO with the United Nations and the Overlapping Generation dogma ..makes perfect sense, Huh? …… LOL..

    I would even pay for a full page ad in one of the leading main stream publications for such a truthful and concise article! REALLY! — Contact me!

    AW

    • Darren Wilks

      I would financially support something like this too!

    • Burt Reynolds

      I will contribute.

  • black curtain

    I appreciate every ones interest in the subject matter that I submitted. It certainly was not a criticism of Rob King as I respect his work as a prophet. His thoughts on a whole range of things have changed my perspective on things. Remember how the WT explained that everyone who repeated a prophecy was likewise a prophet? We are are all to some extent armchair prophets which is not a bad thing, but, there are somethings that don’t involve prophecy.

    Putting forth observations after much thought is one of them. The downside to that is sometimes in the presentation of them it creates emotions that overwhelms us all at times when the new thought is put forward. The Awake Magazine gave the following quote;
    *** w95 7/1 p. 5 Why Search for Truth? ***
    In his book The Art of Thinking, Professor V. R. Ruggiero expresses his surprise that even intelligent people sometimes say that truth is relative. He reasons: “If everyone makes his own truth, then no person’s idea can be better than another’s. All must be equal. And if all ideas are equal, what is the point in researching any subject? Why dig in the ground for answers to archeological questions? Why probe the causes of tension in the Middle East? Why search for a cancer cure? Why explore the galaxy? These activities make sense only if some answers are better than others, if truth is something separate from, and unaffected by, individual perspectives.”

    Is that quote true? Consider this experience;
    (1 Kings 22:19-23) 19 And he (Mi‧cai′ah) went on to say: “Therefore hear the word of Jehovah: I certainly see Jehovah sitting upon his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left. 20 And Jehovah proceeded to say, ‘Who will fool A′hab, that he may go up and fall at Ra′moth-gil′e‧ad?’ And this one began to say something like this, while that one was saying something like that. 21 Finally a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I myself shall fool him.’ At that Jehovah said to him, ‘By what means?’ 22 To this he said, ‘I shall go forth, and I shall certainly become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and, what is more, you will come off the winner. Go out and do that way.’ 23 And now here Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours; but Jehovah himself has spoken calamity concerning you.”

    Good ideas always need a little airing first. Which is what makes Rob Kings published material so good.

    I mentioned cognitive conflict as opposed to cognitive dissonance. The former is the one that gives those wanting to know what to do about what they see with the WT, the most trouble. If you have been for some sort of eye test the doctor may ask you to point your two index fingers at each other, at arms length, and then slowly bring them together so that the points touch. If one finger misses the other and no matter how many times you try to make them meet, that is cognitive conflict. You can see what is wrong, but you can’t fix it and you can’t ignore it. Cognitive dissonance is like a truism such as “don’t worry Jehovah will fix it”, which is what many of the pedophile victims heard from the elders in judicial committees. Many, sadly looked the other way and just accepted that as true.

    Cognitive dissonance is what many suffer from and are devoted to “God’s Organisation”, hence the vigorous defence of it yet feeling something is wrong . But should we defend it for such a reason? For example;
    (1 Kings 18:21-30) 21 Then E‧li′jah approached all the people and said: “How long will YOU be limping upon two different opinions? If Jehovah is the [true] God, go following him; but if Ba′al is, go following him.” And the people did not say a word in answer to him. 22 And E‧li′jah went on to say to the people: “I myself have been left as a prophet of Jehovah, I alone, while the prophets of Ba′al are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Now let them give us two young bulls, and let them choose for themselves one young bull and cut it in pieces and put it upon the wood, but they should not put fire to it. And I myself shall dress the other young bull, and I must place it upon the wood, but I shall not put fire to it. 24 And YOU must call upon the name of YOUR god, and I, for my part, shall call upon the name of Jehovah; and it must occur that the [true] God that answers by fire is the [true] God.” To this all the people answered and said: “The thing is good.” 25 E‧li′jah now said to the prophets of Ba′al: “Choose for yourselves one young bull and dress it first, because YOU are the majority; and call upon the name of YOUR god, but YOU must not put fire to it.” 26 Accordingly they took the young bull that he gave them. Then they dressed it, and they kept calling upon the name of Ba′al from morning till noon, saying: “O Ba′al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and there was no one answering. And they kept limping around the altar that they had made. 27 And it came about at noon that E‧li′jah began to mock them and say: “Call at the top of YOUR voice, for he is a god; for he must be concerned with a matter, and he has excrement and has to go to the privy. Or maybe he is asleep and ought to wake up!” 28 And they began calling at the top of their voice and cutting themselves according to their custom with daggers and with lances, until they caused blood to flow out upon them. 29 And it came about that, as soon as noon was past and they continued behaving as prophets until the going up of the grain offering, there was no voice, and there was no one answering, and there was no paying of attention. 30. . .

    If Jehovah has an earthly organisation then he will defend it. There is no need to scurry to its defence. That is not our remit. Paul clearly stated what that remit was, defend the “good news.”

    (Philippians 1:7) “It is altogether right for me to think this regarding all of YOU, on account of my having YOU in my heart, all of YOU being sharers with me in the undeserved kindness, both in my [prison] bonds and in the defending and legally establishing of the good news.”

    No mention of any congregation, organisation, or corporation. Paul made a personal defence, wanting to establish some precedent, which in turn affected others. Roman Law is the basis for much of the democratic countries legal systems. Paul was a Canon Lawyer, not in the same mould as we understand modern lawyers.

    As you can read above, Elijah was very scathing about a God who will not look after his own followers. Elijah sarcastically asked if Baal was stuck in the bathroom/toilet/pissoir, what ever you want to call it, to explain his absence. How shameful to Baal.

    I point out again that there is no contract (covenant in old words) between Jehovah and the WTBTS. There exists no scriptural basis for that. Everyone is invited however to have a personal relationship with our saviour Christ and our sovereign lord Jehovah. There is no collective “I belong to that group” therefore we are Jehovah’s chosen ones. We all stand before him and Christ as individuals.
    Thank you for your thoughts Richard L, they are appreciated. Do I have a legal background? Guilty as charged.

    What is brown and looks good on a lawyer? Three Rottweilers.
    Law of Probability-The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.
    Law of Biomechanics – The severity of the itch is proportional to the difficulty of the reach.

    Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 100?
    A: Your Honor.
    Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 50
    A: Senator.

    • Beverly kenyon

      Richard Long wrote a fantastic post the other day but this post of your’s Black Curtain had me absolutely riveted and really laughing out loud about the Rottweilers and the Q & A…still laughing, so very funny! That’s made my day as I was feeling miserable, so thank you.

      • Richard Long

        Beverly, his reference to me is regarding the post I made in rebuttal to his original that only he and probably Thinking have seen. In said post, I made a complete ass of myself, with obligatory disparagement of lawyers. The ensuing conversation with Thinking, led me to edit the piece for fear of placing a stumbling block, and in the attempt to amend it, proved his point to myself beyond doubt, hence it’s removal. For a kinder, gentler version of “Jehovah does not have a people of special possession on earth at this time”, I submit Robert’s essay:

        https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

        Hope this finds you well!

        • Beverly kenyon

          I haven’t a clue about your post to Black Curtain but I have to say, I love the ‘verbal jousting’ between the pair of you along with Brian and Burt. It’s fantastic to read! I don’t want to offend Richard as I love how you’re quick to ‘own it’ if you offend and you’re so open with your emotions….raw and honest…but at one time I thought is Richard ‘drunk posting’ or is he having a midlife crisis?! Lol. I think Black Curtain has broad shoulders and wouldn’t be easily stumbled by an exchange of thoughts and opinions. Both you and Black Curtain are more alike than you think…that’s the impression I’m getting. You’ve got to admit, the Rottweiler and Q&A was really funny! You’ve written a lot of things that’s got me thinking Richard and I appreciate that. Yes, I’m well and Thank You for asking.

          • Richard Long

            Yes, Beverly, I AM having a mid-life crisis! No, I do not drunk post, but I do often “sleep-deprived” post, as presently the “peace that excels all thought” continues to elude me, myself having never yet experienced it., the effect being the same.

            Thinking was the one that expressed to me a portion of my comment, if found to be true, would precipitate her departure from this place. Thankfully only she and BC appear to have seen it.

            Black Curtain, in my opinion has reason to be more sure of his understanding than most, but I am grateful if our exchange might have in some way gave him pause to “round out” his points for easier digestion even as my exchange with Thinking gave me pause to amend and finally abandon my argument.

            I, too, greatly appreciated the lawyer humor, all the more coming from a legal professional

            • Beverly kenyon

              At least you’re honest about your mid-life crisis! Lol. That’s good to hear you’re not hitting the Sherry bottle and you only ‘sleep deprive’ post, something I do as well. Sister Thinking is an Aussie and Black Curtain is a lawyer so I’m sure they’re hard as nails and wouldn’t have let your comment get to them. I’m sure being a JW they’ve heard worse on the doors….you can’t be precious when you’re a JW! Maybe you’re going through the stages of betrayal and you’re now at the anger stage. At least you’re not rehoming the cat, selling all your possessions and buying a one way ticket to Amsterdam and getting your body inked! You’re working it all out here on EWatchman with others who are or who have gone through the process. You’ll get there Richard and in the meantime I always look forward to your comments.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Beverly, no point Richard re-homing the cat, if he has one that is :-).

              I heard of fantastic stories of cats finding their way back home from vast distances.

              Jehovah mentions a similar thing along those lines

              I will care for my sheep like a shepherd who has found his scattered sheep and is feeding them. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered in the day of clouds and thick gloom.
              Ezekiel 34:12

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, Jamie, I’ve heard of cats finding their way home. I love cats! And I love that scripture as Jehovah knew that his sheep would be scattered in the end days and it implies that Jehovah will look for them to then rescue them…it’s so reassuring and comforting to read that. Still praying for you Jamie on the job front. Stay positive! (Yes, I know it’s easier said than done, but it makes you feel you’re doing something).

            • Jamie Mac

              I replied to a comment from Burt just a short while ago an in it I mentioned I had been offered a job and have accepted it.

              I am grateful to all your prayers and support you have given me. Really grateful. As i mentioned to Burt, I’m free again to fully concentrate on more important matters.

              A brother once mentioned to me about money being a protection against things like poverty. That thought has always been with me and of course having a job partly secures that protection. I think the brother was referring to Ecclesiastes 7:12

            • Beverly kenyon

              Jamie, that’s fantastic news! The weight’s off with that problem for you. Hope you settle into your new job good. Glad to hear you’re freed up to concentrate on important things. Money in this world is a protection against poverty also the Bible encourages a person to work..can’t remember the scripture and I’ve always thought that it’s in a man’s DNA to work and it’s got to be a lazy man who doesn’t want to work, obviously according to his circumstances, because everyone’s circumstances is different. Really pleased for you Jamie.

            • Daisy

              Congratulations! You did it!
              Because you know God’s name He has set his love upon you. Because you called upon Him in trouble; he delivered you and honoured you. Psalm 91:14,15.
              So happy for you dear brother..
              😀

    • Daisy

      1kings22; Will I respond to God’s warnings with faith and obedience, or will I reject his counsel and be rejected by Him is what I asked myself after reading this post. It seems that Satan can prance along uninvited into the heavenly residence and converse with the Almighty “airing” a problem and coming up with a solution to it…something we are not allowed to do for ourselves at a judicial committee meeting or by posting prophetic warnings to the WTBTS. He who causes to Become is more reasonable than elders and the GB it seems…

    • Burt Reynolds

      Does their have to be a contract between Jehovah and the watchtower? If there does not, perhaps then the wrath of Jehovah will come upon the watchtower for their presumption upon his name and the ignominy they have brought upon it. I do not recall reading in the scriptures that Jehovah has to bind his word with a contract either! His word is his bond. Where also would be the focal point of the prophesy and the reason for its utterance? Who has been taking his name in vain? They make themselves gods do they not? Therefore they have taken on the role of representation. Jehovah is a jealous God as illustrated by your own example of Elijah. Is it not also part of prophesy and thus a covenant to all people, that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness? Is it therefore correct to say that there is no scriptural premis for a covenant? Do not evidence indicators or circumstantial evidence add to the burden of proof? Who raised up a people to proclaim the name of Jehovah? Satan? Russell? Jehovah has clearly raised up a people just as surely as he caused the prophesy to be uttered. That the watchtower has abused that privilege may be as hidden to many, as is Jehovah’s involvement with it.

      Jehovah also does is not obliged to defend the watchtower, but the people within it. The call to get out of her my people, has not been invoked at this time. If Jehovah had a contract with his organisation, then what part of that will he protect? The people, or the buildings, or the organisation et al, through its people? Now, Jehovah does have a contract or covenant with his people to protect them. At present, the division between those who are worthy of such and those who are not, again at this time, has not been invoked. Therefore, what part of the organisation, does not come under that covenant? Clearly if Russia is anything to go by, it is the buildings. But Jehovah already owns those, along with all the gold and silver that the world contains. His people are his organisation until He dictates otherwise. And there is a contract.

      Thereby rests the case for the witness your honour.

      • Richard Long

        Burt, below I posted to Kevin a link to and an excerpt from one of Robert’s own essays which has bearing on this matter. Might we discuss conclusions after our reading of it?

        • Burt Reynolds

          Well if that’s what the bible says then that’s fine by me and I’ll have to concede the case to black curtain.

          • Richard Long

            Me too. And beyond that, I’m just too stunned to put coherent thought together.

      • Daisy

        Two sentences popped out in your comment…”they make themselves gods (and representatives) do they not ”
        As I was reading John 5 today I thought this scripture …”if I alone bear witness about MYSELF, my witness is not true”, applied to the leaders today.
        I’m thinking that Jesus is saying that evidence of who/what I am must come from elsewhere. And, if Jesus applied those words to himself, whilst on earth, how much more so must it apply to men.
        Ps I did read all you wrote too! Thanks B

        • Burt Reynolds

          Are you meaning here then, that the mantle of witness is not ours to assume, and we must be recommended as such Daisy ? Do the scriptures not say also that you are my witnesses sayeth the Lord? How are we then yo look at this because I am no longer sure. Having said that, I wonder if it matters what we are called as all we can do is to be our best to be (Jehovah’s) witnesses regardless of what we are called. Maybe it is as you seem to suggest that we are only officially so if we make the grade to qualify as such? But if it is a matter of qualification, how could we ever qualify, given our imperfection to represent such? Surely we can only ever intend to be such….but if that is all we can do, why are we asked to be witnesses? Surely it is because we do believe what we give witness to. And is that not being a witness? ( This is the sort of thing we used to have team meetings about at work, arguing for hours about something we didn’t have an answer to, and only coming up with an excuse that avoided recrimination in practice! Typical public servant that I was).

          • Jamie Mac

            Hi Burt, regarding the team meetings, that’s something I will be doing as well very soon as I have been offered a job and have accepted. Thanks everyone for their prayers and kind thoughts towards me. I can now fully concentrate on spiritual matters again. 🙂

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Good news…i am happy for you 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              Good for you Jamie. I’m so pleased to hear it.

          • Daisy

            I quoted Jesus…John 5:31 and I applied his words to our gb in that they claim this n that about themselves without real evidence of who/what they really are, as …though what Jesus said was true – John 8:13, 8:17 – he admits that it wasn’t sufficient testimony alone to claim others belief, and they had the right to expect the statement, that he, coming from God would be confirmed by other evidence, i .e the miracles he performed as proof that God had sent him.
            Our leaders state who/what they are, so it must be true! But, when Jesus arrives alongside them is there evidence to prove who they’re boasting to be.
            I was alerted to what you said about making themselves gods (idols) 😀

          • Bklyn Kevin

            Am I my brother’s keeper?”

            “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself. Mark12:28-31.

            Regardless of what the governing body folly is we as a witness of Jehovah are duly charged to bear witness of his son Jesus Christ and the wonderful hopes for the future. Matthew28:19.

            Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.”

            When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked,but I will ask his blood back from you. Ezekiel 3:18

            For I say to you that if your righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes [governing body] and the Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. Matthew5:20

            Nevertheless, give as gifts of mercy the things that are inside, and, look! all [other] things are clean about YOU.

            But woe to YOU Pharisees, because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the rue and of every [other] vegetable, but YOU pass by the justice and the love of God! These things YOU were under obligation to do, but those other things not to omit.

            Luke 11:41-42.

            Now Peter and John were going up into the temple for the hour of prayer, the ninth hour,and a certain man that was lame from his mother’s womb was being carried, and they would daily put him near the temple door that was called Beautiful, in order to ask gifts of mercy from those entering into the temple. When he caught sight of Peter and John about to go into the temple he began requesting to get gifts of mercy.But Peter, together with John, gazed at him and said: “Take a look at us.” So he fixed his attention upon them, expecting to get something from them. However, Peter said: “Silver and gold I do not possess, but what I do have is what I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ,walk!” With that he took hold of him by the right hand and raised him up. Instantly the soles of his feet and his anklebones were made firm.
            Acts 3:3-7.

            Granted we do not have the healing powers to heal the physically lame however we do have the ability to assist those who are spiritually lame and we can do this by bearing witness about Jehovah and his son Jesus by preaching the good news to any and all who are willing to listen.

            “Silver and gold I do not possess, but what I do have is what I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene.

            Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love 1 Corinthians 13

            Isaiah43:-A You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah,”Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed,And after me there has been none. Because he loved your forefathers and has chosen their offspring after them you were brought out of Egypt in his presence by his great power. Deuteronomy 4:37

            • Burt Reynolds

              I’m being a bit thick today Kevin. Please would you illustrate your opinion linked to my comment. I understand the scriptures, but I don’t think I am seeing your point clearly. Thanks.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Burt you said to Daisy “But if it is a matter of qualification, how could we ever qualify, given our imperfection.

              Burt I thought you were asking Daisy how can we qualified and stand before our GOD Jehovah and so that’s why I wrote what I wrote in reference to your thought.

              Please accept my apologies for the confusion I should have explained my thoughts concerning that matter better.

              So how can we qualify before Jehovah? By showing brotherly love and bearing witness to our neighbours about Jehovah and his son and his wonderful provisions that’s why the Apostle Paul said love never fail and he’s right because if we have enduring love like Jehovah had when he sent his only begotten son to take the sins away from the world it will supersede all else..

              Point Being
              Galatians 5:14. For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: “You must love your neighbor as yourself. therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment. Romans13:10-B.

            • Marisa Gomez

              Helo,,,, I have a question,,,,,why I ‘ ve locked.? Is it not allowed to give opposing views
              ?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              I don’t think you’re locked out because if you were you wouldn’t be able to communicate this message to me. In any case you will have to ask Robert King since he is the owner of this website.

            • Richard Long

              Marisa, I experience a lot of lag between the ewatchman site and the disqus interface. but I log onto ewatchman THROUGH disqus, so if i’m not logged in, I cant comment, upvote, etc. It is Robert’s custom to post a brief goodbye to an individual being blocked on the occasions he finds it necessary to pull the plug on someone. As individual guests to the site, we may flag comments we feel are inappropriate or block another individuals from our personal view.

            • Marisa Gomez

              Ya veo…

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Kevin. Very helpful. No need to apologise for trying to help! Just a break in communications at this end. Not uncommon I can tell you. I very much appreciate your input. ?

          • Brian

            What is a Jehovahs Witness?? I consider myself to be a “witness to Jehovah”, I consider my very existence here as a witness to the wonderful creation that we live in/on everyday. Is that a “witness” or do I have to join the club to be one?

            • Burt Reynolds

              One that is active and not passive in proclaiming the meaning/name of Jehovah. It’s the issue, not the fact of creation, though of course, the latter supports the former. But I am still trying to get a handle on the main point of your question.

      • black curtain

        Burt Reynolds

        1.
        Does there have to be a contract between Jehovah and the watchtower?

        No! But without it how can the WT claim to represent him be valid?

        2.If there does not, perhaps then the wrath of Jehovah will come upon the watchtower for their presumption upon his name and the ignominy they have brought upon it.

        This is the very subject that Robert King’s article is about, “Has Jehovah turned against the WT.” I agree with Robert King, it sure looks like it.

        3.I do not recall reading in the scriptures that Jehovah has to bind his word with a contract either! His word is his bond.

        Re read Exodus Burt. Not only did Jehovah put it in writing regarding his contract/covenant but he initiated it. It did not commence until the Israelites accepted the terms of their own free will.

        4.Where also would be the focal point of the prophesy and the reason for its utterance?

        What are you referring to?

        5.Who
        has been taking his name in vain? Who do you think they are? I
        can’t answer that for you or anyone else, that is a personal
        decision.

        6.They make themselves gods do they not?

        The reference in 2Thess 2:4 is what I think you are referring to. The answer seems to be they will, but not just yet.

        7.Therefore they have taken on the role of representation.

        There are about 12 different denominations in the US alone that have Jehovah in the name of their church, so which is the one in your mind that might be culpable?

        8.Jehovah is a jealous God as illustrated by your own example of Elijah.

        Jealousy was not the issue with the Elijah account. It was the establishment as to whom the true God is. I believe Jehovah settled the answer beautifully.

        9.Is it not also part of prophesy and thus a covenant to all people, that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness?

        Where then, in the scriptures, since you raise that point, is the covenant/contract between WTBTS and God? In fact the Catholic’s can also claim they have fulfilled this as a
        covenant (based on your definition), as can all the Protestant faiths. But that was a voluntary action by those individuals not a covenant. So no, that is not correct. Jehovah was not at a loss, the rocks were ready and waiting.

        10.Is it therefore correct to say that there is no scriptural premis for a covenant?

        No it is not. Contract/covenants have and are used when necessary, some verbal and one in writing. There is the Abrahamic, Davidic, and there is the New Covenant/contract.

        10a.Do not evidence indicators or circumstantial evidence add to the burden of proof?

        Inference is not sufficient. All contracts must have at least two witnesses. You appear to be equating the WTBTS Inc with God’s people. They are not the same.(see 16)

        11.Who raised up a people to proclaim the name of Jehovah? Satan? Russell?

        Perhaps you missed the point of my letter, I did not say Jehovah didn’t USE various groups, organisations, even world powers (Babylon), but I did say they didn’t belong to him. I stand by that remark. Side point, Jehovah has never used Satan to do anything.
        Jehovah has clearly raised up a people just as surely as he caused the prophesy to be uttered. See16

        12.That the watchtower has abused that privilege may be as hidden to many, as is Jehovah’s involvement with it.

        The WT has subtly grabbed Jehovah’s name and applied it to themselves, as Robert King pointed out recently in an article where he noticed that WT put themselves on the same level as Jehovah, that is Jehovah= WT (God’s organisation). Considering that, and all else that people are on this site for (including you and me), as they see the deviancy of the WT and other excesses, are you saying that God owns an organisation that is
        fighting him? A paradox you might say. Since God set up the Jewish temple with it’s priests can you say that the Pharisees belonged to him? The same Pharisees that killed his son?

        13.Jehovah
        also does is not obliged to defend the watchtower, but the people within it. If you say that as a statement of fact, then I disagree. We are criminals, hence the reason for the death penalty that hangs over us all, our saving grace is that we were sold into slavery without choice, therefore loving kindness and mercy prevail, not obligation.

        14.The call to get out of her my people, has not been invoked at this time.

        There is no time limit to start getting out. It is in the eye of the beholder, when the beholder sees what he thinks is in harmony with Jesus’ warning. Everyone has a different view when to go, the
        only corollary is don’t leave late.

        15.If Jehovah had a contract with his organisation, then what part of that will he protect?

        Hypothetical.

        16.The people, or the buildings, or the organisation et al, through its people? (Acts
        10:34-35) 34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive
        that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”
        Apart from men (Women and children), what else do you see that needs protection, no mention of churches, Corporations?

        Now,
        Jehovah does have a contract or covenant with his people to protect them. At present, the division between those who are worthy of such and those who are not, again at this time, has not been invoked. Therefore, what part of the organisation, does not come under that
        covenant? Clearly if Russia is anything to go by, it is the buildings. But Jehovah already owns those, along with all the gold and silver that the world contains. His people are his organisation until He dictates otherwise. And there is a contract.

        Then why didn’t you include it here? Besides, “his people” are not and never will be the WTBTS. Inc. They are not one and same and that is what you are saying (see 16) and that would be disingenuous. As to saying Jehovah owns those buildings, well he doesn’t. Russia does now.

        Thank you for asking regarding what I managed to scramble together Burt. I
        have nothing further to add what I have said here,

        kindest regards
        BC

        • Beverly kenyon

          So want to soak up everything written in this mind blowing post but gotta go to work! Arrgh! Black Curtain once again you’ve smashed it with the way you’ve forensically dissected all the points regarding whether the WT is in a covenant/contract with Jehovah and how they equate themselves on the same level as Jehovah, very presumptuous. Can’t get over how there are 12 denominations in the US that have Jehovah’s name in their churches. Whaaaat! The question Jesus asks, Who really is the faithful and discreet slave? It’s that question that sums it all up for me. Black Curtain I LOVE your posts in the same way I LOVE Brother King’s book and articles and podcasts….it sends my thinking process into overdrive, along with others here on this site who when they post, I sit up and take notice! Wish I didn’t have to go to work! ?

          • black curtain

            Dear Beverly, thank you for your kind thoughts. This is for your interest but others will read it and have their own conclusions. Regarding the 12 denominations, my statement that there is 12 is a comment that my wife gave to me as she had been looking at this matter. After some thinking there may be more or less than that number but it fitted with what research we have done. But others may come up with a closer number than what we have done, the actual number is probably unimportant, rather it just makes a point to note . I do keep firmly in mind that I could be wrong, all the time, and always like to review ideas and thinking. Which is why when we can across Rob King’s blog, book etc it resonated with what we understood in our own thinking about prophecy. King has hold of Ockhams Razor, sometimes known as the KISS principle, and in the case of an Einstein paraphrase “all things should be as simple as possible, and no simpler.”
            King is an object lesson in how to use “Ockhams Razor”, he went to the scriptures read them and asked simple questions (always the best kind) such as, why is it so? That is what we are all supposed to do, and in that King excelled. The WT lost its way in my view with Incorporation and the accumulated wealth of Mammon. The other problem that arose for them was that suddenly they were no longer the slave, they became the master. They pontificated on all sorts of things and enforced those things, for example, back in the 60’s the elders were measuring skirt lengths of women to see if they were modest, no higher education, business suits only for men (why would they want to identify with business men???), beards, blood fractions, cleaning your car, the length of hair, types employment, what a heady mix of how high can they go with this? Was all this the Christianity that Jesus left us as a legacy? Group conscience? The WT deciding for everyone what they should do on a micro level? Even to the point of getting young people married off so they wouldn’t commit fornication. That happened many times that I know of in the US. It also left a carnage of divorces everywhere.
            Where did they go wrong?
            Come on down Jeremiah, (Jeremiah 10:23-25) 23 I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not BELONG to man who is walking even to direct his step. 24 Correct me, O Jehovah, however with judgment; not in your anger, that you may not reduce me to nothing…
            The word belong… it is abstract, it is a consideration of RIGHTS. The WT conferred upon itself the RIGHT to tell others what to do and how to think, thereby eliminating any position other than its own. No one has been allowed to exercise their conscience on many things that concern themselves.
            But the verse in Jeremiah says IT DOES NOT belong to US, to even direct our own step, let alone the steps of others. Notice the singular, step; we are so ill equipped to govern ourselves that we should consult Jehovah on so many things. But we have no right to govern others. That is, in my view, a conflict with Jehovah’s universal sovereignty and to those that seek prominence and position in a spiritual sense over others is extremely perilous. It is one of the reasons that makes Rob King’s site as good as it is because it is a forum to express views and learnings without fear. I will take a sabbatical for a while.
            my very kindest regards
            BC

          • Beverly kenyon

            Hi Black Curtain, I can’t find your reply to me here on this article even though you did reply to me and I appreciate you replying, I’ve looked for it but can’t find it. As usual you’ve written a lot of things that’s got me thinking and working things in my mind and the Einstein paraphrase, all things should be simple as possible and no simpler as that’s so true concerning the things written in the Bible. Jehovah spoke face to face with Moses and he spoke plainly to him and not in riddles or sayings. Also you’re right about how they are no longer the slave but have become the master in that they’ve took the RIGHT to tell others what to do when you look closely at Jeremiah 10:23-25 where it says, it does not belong to US…to man to direct our steps, never mind the right to direct the steps of others. I’m trying to remember the key points of your post off the top of my head. You’ve given me a lot to think about Black Curtain and I hope you enjoy your sabbatical and Thank You for your post to me.

      • Brian

        Burt, I don’t think that there is even circumstantial proof that he has raised up a people, the fact that he has allowed an apostasy to engulf the world starting from before the end of the apostles is proof that he is allowing everyone to come to the “truth” on their own free will just as he has given everyone that lives and has lived on the planet, he has already had an “earthly people” for himself and as far as I can make out that covenant was finished 3 1/2 years after Jesus died and the new covenant “will be written in their hearts” and not in an earthly organisation, the covenant is a spiritual one and being spiritual it is between those that are a part of it and Jehovah knows who they and no one else. The function of the congregations is to spread the word about Jesus and feed all as Jesus brothers, this has taken place over the millenniums by many and all of them were part of and are still apart of the apostasy and yes they have done a pretty crappy job of it but seeing as how Jesus hasn’t come to judge them as yet does not allow anyone to judge them as they are not going to be doing the judging.
        I see a massive mistake of the Jehovahs Witnesses as of not feeding everyone as though they are Jesus brothers and just feed the bulk of them as the “great crowd” that no one has asked them to separate. I often wonder what the Holy Spirit was thinking when it decided to direct (spirit directed) the Witnesses to go out a gather the great crowd now 80 years on and still “gathering” them!

        • Burt Reynolds

          What I was referring to in raising up a people, was that Jehovah has brought about the circumstances that allows people who love his righteousness, to preach the word. He has caused this act to occur. He said that the good news would be preached. Well, he must have had the idea of using people to do this and that if they would not, then the very stones would. The word has been preached in all the inhabited earth, as far as is possible it seems. I am not suggesting that we have personally been chosen, as righteous people, as the choice to serve is open. Even the annointed are only called. I think perhaps the most the great crowd can term themselves as being, is desirous of joining them. Is this not what the scripture describing holding on the the skirt of a Jew means? Call it a willing workforce if you like. Maybe I’m not explaining myself properly, but then if was easy to describe these things everything would be a lot clearer!

          • Brian

            Yes Burt, the “good news of the Kingdom” would be preached in all of the earth and that has taken place over the last 2 millennium albeit sometime very poorly but some form of the message has been out there for a very long time, let’s say it has been tuned up going into the last round, how many people even in the JW’s had heard of Jesus and had put some faith even in a misguided message before the JW’s led them to the “truth”?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well the bible does specifically refer to the last days, coupled with the preaching in all the inhabited earth. It is this event that I refer to. I agree with you that the word has been exposed to many over the last 2,000 years, yet the world wide work has been preached to this huge extent, only because of the available technologies that we have now. It is also significant that the watchtower was enabled when it was, because when these technologies developed, they were there, prepared and ready to use them, and, notably, to get the word out to the world while it was still receptive to religion, thereby not only capturing the willing, but prolonging faith as the world sank into the cynical godless world that it is today where derision and cynicism abound. The world is no longer receptive to the word of Jehovah, in fact clearly, they are opposing religion. The preaching work came at just the right time for a world wide witness to be carried out.

        • Beverly kenyon

          Crappy job! Lol. ??

    • Richard Long

      As disqus has captured for you alone my original post although I deleted it, and if you think it instructional to us as an example of strong argument on the wrong side of an issue, you may re-post it, or I will with commentary if you wish. You showed much restraint in not immediately delivering the crushing rebuttal it deserved. Thank you again.

    • black curtain

      Dear Richard, putting ones thoughts in the crucible of public opinion requires guts, what an earthy word that is. But one can’t help but admire if someone expresses a sincerely held belief and then puts that in the arena for examination. It is a testing place the public arena. But you do just that, thank you for your good work, Beverley also does that et al.
      Sir William Blackstone SL KC (10 July 1723 – 14 February 1780) once coined a phrase that is still in use, it is “actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea” in English it translates out as, “a vicious crime without a vicious mind is not a crime at all.”
      What Blackstone was talking about, is motive for doing things and it helps us to understand Jehovah’s thinking on things. Thus can this idea of motive free us or condemn us especially if we valiantly strive to understand what Christ is looking for in the way of heart motivation.
      Take for example this verse
      (1 Kings 22:29-35) 29 And the king of Israel and Je‧hosh′a‧phat the king of Judah proceeded to go up to Ra′moth-gil′e‧ad. 30 The king of Israel now said to Je‧hosh′a‧phat: “There will be a disguising and entering into the battle [for me], but you, for your part, put on your garments.” Accordingly, the king of Israel disguised himself and entered into the battle. 31 As for the king of Syria, he had commanded the thirty-two chiefs of the chariots that were his, saying: “YOU must fight, neither with the small nor the great, but with the king of Israel alone.” 32 And it came about that, as soon as the chiefs of the chariots saw Je‧hosh′a‧phat, they, for their part, said to themselves: “Surely it is the king of Israel.” So they turned aside against him to fight; and Je‧hosh′a‧phat began to cry for aid. 33 And it came about that, as soon as the chiefs of the chariots saw that it was not the king of Israel, they immediately came back from following him.

      34 And there was a man that bent the bow IN HIS INNOCENCE, but he got to strike the king of Israel between the appendages and the coat of mail, so that he said to his charioteer: “Turn your hand around, and take me out from the camp, because I have been badly wounded.” 35 And the battle kept rising in intensity on that day, and the king himself had to be kept in a standing position in the chariot facing the Syrians, and gradually he died in the evening;. . .

      This bowman, had committed regicide, he had killed the king. But the capitalised words show motive, which is really the essence of Blackstone’s phrase, as the bowman never knew that on that day his arrow slew an Israelite King. Jehovah had beaten Blackstone to the punch on enunciating a principle.

      Wanting to discuss and learn more demonstrates good motives, and whatever we have been previously guilty of when it came to incorrect spiritual values is not held against us by Jehovah.

      Kindest regards
      BC

    • Beverly kenyon

      Hi Black Curtain, I’ve just sent you a post but I’ve sent it to myself! Duh! As you can see I’m not very tech savvy, but please could you read my reply back to you as I don’t want you to think I’m ignorant by not replying back to you even though for the life of me, I could find your post to me! Strange! Correction…NOT find.

  • Felipe Beltran

    TESTIMONY : A PACT WITH THE DEVIL
    I have contacted you because I read your comment on a forum and you have said that you need someone who will help you make the pact.
    Listen to me well.
    I made the pact with the devil and all is going well for me. I became rich thanks to the temple of illuminati. I am very happy. I eat what I want and I drink what I want. I travel to wherever I want in the world. I no longer need to work to earn money. for my business I already produce enough money. if you also want to make the covenant like me to contact the temple on this email address: espiritualtemplo@gmail.com

  • Frank Haensel

    Can someone in this forum try and list the diverse money schemes the WT has and is using.
    I´ve got some sceptical brothers that are interested in the finances. Just could wake them up.
    This topic and forum would work just fine.
    I gotta laugh though. In the truth since 71 and I donated under 300€ all that time. Sounds crazy now, but I always was very suspicious.I held out all that time.

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