Just as the days of Noah

//Just as the days of Noah

Commentary on the daily text of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Wednesday, October 18

[Noahproved himself faultless among his contemporaries.—Gen. 6:9.

Noah lived in an evil world but had no desire to make its inhabitants his close friends. He did not seek the companionship of ungodly people. He and the seven members of his family occupied themselves with the doing of God-given work, which included building an ark. Meanwhile, Noah was also “a preacher of righteousness.” (2 Pet. 2:5) Noah’s preaching, his work on the ark, and his association with his family kept him busy doing good things that pleased God. As a result, Noah and his immediate family survived the Flood. We should be grateful to them because all of us today are the descendants of those who served Jehovah—faithful Noah, Noah’s wife, his sons, and their wives. Similarly, loyal and obedient first-century Christians kept themselves separate from ungodly people and survived the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E.

There is plenty of physical evidence to support the Bible account of Noah’s flood. There is the fossil record and the mass graves of fish and other massive creatures. There are the perfectly frozen carcasses of wooly mammoths in Siberia. There is the fact that the earth once had a uniform, semi-tropical climate —evidenced by fossils of palm trees in the Arctic region. And the Ice Age, so-called, which no doubt began instantaneously with the collapse of the insulating heavenly ocean that God suspended above the Earth on the second epic of creation. It would seem that the gradual process of global warming began after the flood and the ice that covered much of the northern latitudes —laid down by wave after wave of great blizzards that raked the earth in the wake of the cataclysm created by crash of the suspended waters —has been receding ever since.

For Christians, though, the most reliable confirmation of the Deluge is that Jesus  spoke of Noah and the flood. More importantly, Jesus connected the coming and revealing of the Son of man, indeed the parousia, with the flood. In the context of explaining to his inquiring apostles the things to come, Jesus said: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”

Christ’s explanation of his sudden arrival presents a problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Besides the fact that nobody knows the day or hour of his coming, which would rule out October the 2nd, 1914, as being the day and year when Jesus’ parousia begins, Jesus indicated that the presence commences a final separation work —one will be taken and the other abandoned. Notice, please, that Jesus did not specifically mention that the one abandoned was immediately destroyed. Nor did he indicate that the one taken was physically transported someplace, like the raptureist’s left behind fiction.

Jesus’ comments regarding the days of Noah were in answer to his apostles’ question about the conclusion of the system of things. Previously Jesus had spoken to them in illustrations regarding the harvest being a conclusion of a system —or end of an age, as some translations word it. In his harvest illustration Jesus also described a decisive division brought about when the angels uproot the weeds from among the wheat. The weeds are ultimately bundled up and burned in the fire. And the wheat is brought into the barn —the storehouse.

But even in that illustration Jesus did not indicate that the uprooted weeds are immediately destroyed. Instead their being pitched into the fiery furnace causes them to weep and gnash their teeth. And at that same time the righteous will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of Jehovah. So, according to Jesus the separation of the sons of Satan and the sons of Jehovah creates a kingdom that is finally free of all persons doing lawlessness and things that cause stumbling. Obviously, the Watchtower organization cannot possibly claim to be free from persons doing lawlessness and stumbling blocks.

Take the eye of Horus assembly hall for example. The creation of what amounts to a satanic temple in which Jehovah’s Witnesses unwittingly convened for the past quarter century is obviously a product of the sons of the Devil rooted in the midst of the wheat-like anointed sons of God.

Like the superfine apostles who presided over the Corinthian congregation, though, their presence is humanly undetectable since Satan has empowered them to perfectly disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness —as mimic anointed sons of God. Only the powerful presence of Christ can bring about their exposure and removal, which is the first order of business when Christ comes to begin the judgment of the house of God; then, two men will be in the field (service) and one will be taken along into the Kingdom and one will be abandoned to weep and gnash his teeth and ultimately destroyed forever.

As stated, the Watchtower will have nothing to do with this final separating. In fact, those who are abandoned will remain with the earthly organization while the sons of the True One will shine as brightly as the sun in the actual Kingdom of Christ, which will be a wholly separate institution from the earthly, visible organization. The Watchtower has merely served as the dragnet to gather individuals for the final separation.

Be assured, though, the coming presence of Christ will not drag out over a century. Contrary to what Jehovah’s Witnesses presently imagine, the 120 years that Noah preached and built the ark are not analogous to the presence of Christ. Jesus made it clear that the day Noah entered into the ark, which was a week before the floodgates of the heavens were actually opened, corresponds to the coming of the Son of man and the parousia.

By all means then, do your best to serve Christ. Follow the Watchtower’s admonition to be no part of this doomed world. Keep in expectation of the coming of the Son of man. It shouldn’t be too much longer.

image_pdfimage_print
2017-10-18T12:13:57+00:00 October 18th, 2017|Commentary|648 Comments
  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    See Daniel:2:34-35 the striking of the stone was on the feet of clay and iron. If the intention of the stone is to just break the image it would have hit any part of the image. But why feet part of iron and clay? It means the beginning of Christ’s rulership on this earth causes the Anglo American world power to collapse. In other words the collapse of the Anglo American world power will be the indication that Christ kingdom begins its rule. So it shouldn’t be too much longer means are we to expect that Anglo American power to collapse soon?

    • Craig Knight

      Isaac
      Hi! I was born in 1953 and I think I will live to see the tribulation begin. As I understand it the Anglo American world power will fall due to the economic system’s total collapse. The first time in history all countries in the world are on fiat currencies and fiat currencies always fail and the US debt shows that it won’t be too long until we reach a point of world wide anarchy. The US monetary system is on the brink of collapse. Then add in N.Korea and India and Pakistan etc. I wouldn’t put off the end of things too long my brother!

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        Brother first of all I convey my love and affection to you. Thanks for your reply. I believe in your words. Yeah what you said I understood. But give me some researched link how soon Anglo America will collapse
        I am very much interested.

        • Craig Knight

          Well that would be when the king of the north makes his move against the king of the south and start the Great Tribulation. A lot of us would like to know that but it’s not explained in scripture as far as I know. If we all knew the start of the GT then some would put off serving God and jump in at the last moment and that goes for the day of Armageddon too. If the Bible said Armageddon would start on October 2019 then a ton of people would try to get right with God 6 months before Armageddon starts. Maybe it’s better we don’t know. 🙂

      • The voice

        The collapse is set for 2018
        Look at the cover of the 1988 economist magazine. They are telling you way in advance

  • tortas

    Is the main entrance of the new Watchtower a modern day Eye of Horus?

    • trudy

      The way out for ones who wake up .That’s was really horrible to find out that ..shocking just like Robert said .

    • Observing Quietly

      No totas, the main entrance of the new Watchtower is not. The picture is of the assembly hall in Norway and it is designed as the Eye of Horus. Go to Google earth, search Jehovah’s Witnesses Norway and you will find it. They have used it for years without the brothers and sisters there knowing what it looks like from the sky (Jehovah’s view). Apparently they have sold it in the last year.

      • Richard Long

        OC, I think tortas may be referring to the slightly arched facade at 1 Kings Road. And I know you meant Denmark 😎

        • Observing Quietly

          Opps, yes you are right, Denmark. Sorry.

  • Simpletruth

    Excellent article! When I use to read the passage referenced in the daily text I use to think that Jesus was only referring to those outside of God’s organization being the one to take ‘no note’ of what is going on. But it really seems like it will be the witnesses because many of them will not pay attention to what is going on either since they believe Jesus already came in 1914. I also find it interesting that Isaiah 28:15 talks about the “raging flood passing through” to break down the “covenant of death” that the leadership has made based on falsehood. Could the flood Jesus referred to represent the desolation of God’s people?

    • the leadership but anyone doing the same also

    • trudy

      The thing is now they have also set up a museum in Warwick to show everything the 1914 thing… .Its like dead man bones relics .People are flocking around the idol .Go around preaching the good news of the kingdom that’s it ..maybe stop looking back ..I don’t know but thought .

      • Simpletruth

        A museum. Really? I wonder if it costs to get in? Anyways..your take on it is pretty interesting. Perhaps you’re right

        • trudy

          Dear Simpletruth ,Yes there was a cost , its called donations but we will still take another donation ,its just there the card machine right at the front door ,wey moved the box right at the door , we have a plate collections .but no one is willing to hold it like the microphone . ..I don’t remember Jesus saying about doing this!! mmm ..am I missing something here ,was it not meant for the widow …mmm .oh yer the black widow .oh yer that’s it ,,,While everyone is looking to mobile phone or the day out at the museum Disney Warwick world
          All to prove themselves righteous a in the eye of (man ) and not in there bibles the time will come and crumble . white wash ..

  • Burt Reynolds

    Are we to suppose that those sons of Satan within the watchtower are aware of their role? When we see the eye of Horus in Norway, it seems almost unthinkable that they could not be aware of their master, and yet, how deep is this blindness that binds them?

    • trudy

      The devil has blinded the minds of the unbelievers .To think I thought that I wanted to escape the world to find my guard down //

    • Max

      They are aware. The problem is that in the WT you are “kindly forced” to become a team player. Which means that we do realized that what we are doing is wrong but we see the leadership the GB the Bethel elders doing the same thing and that for many makes it OK to do the same and if you wants to advance in the organization you have to be of the same mind as the leadership. To give you an example. I examined a brother once for an unrelated condition and he ended up telling me of a STD related infection he had contracted the week before. He was assigned to the same congregation I was assigned to. I reported the incident and the next day the Branch overseer showed up at my office and told me that under any circumstance I was to report the issue to the congregation elders and that his case was going to be dealt with in house. That was a serious break of policy in which every sin related to the bethel family members needed it to be reported and dealt with at the congregation level. The brother in question was not disciplined and he was allowed to stay at bethel for 3 more years. His family was very influential his father an elder and a big donor of the WT. I didn’t reported the sin to the congregation’s elders but the issue stained my conscious for years but I did it to be a team player and saved bethel the embarrassment. That event was one of many and can asure you I was not the only one making concessions. I imagine the brothers whom have decades in the fulltime service many might have their consciousness already numbed.

      • Burt Reynolds

        Perhaps it was only a Scripturally Transmitted Deception and not the other, and so could be dealt with in house legitimately. ( I have my Governing Body hat on today!).

        • into the light

          Burt you’re on a roll hahaha
          You’re cracking me up with those witty comments. Scripturally Transmitted Deception LOL 😂

        • Jamie Mac

          My first thoughts were , what on earth has a telephone got to do with this brothers related infection.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Ha ha! Made me laugh. Took me a few moments but it gradually sank in. I see we are of the same generation, though I recall having a party line when I was a child and my our telephone number was simply 2204……almost a binary code!!!

            • Jamie Mac

              That’s right Burt, I lived in a place called Langley and we had a 5 digit number beginning with 7 I think. Since then of course telephone numbers have morphed into more codes than one can imagine. I am sure the younger generation have their mobile phones implanted, they cannot seem to function without them.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Good heavens! I hope that’s the Langley in Berkshire and not Essex!

            • Jamie Mac

              Yes , Berkshire, although it was part of Buckinghamshire when I was a wee lad

  • into the light

    Similarly, loyal and obedient first-century Christians kept themselves separate from ungodly people and survived the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E.

    Really? I’m not sure how they kept themselves separate. I was under impression that they ran away from the earthly org at the time.

    On the other hand notice how the use of these words and phrases is almost like trying to activate certain thought processes in JW: doing the work, association, preaching, ark and so on. They are masters of manipulation.

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      But you see that WTS is a member of OSCE , having into hedge funds, so how they are seperate from this world? So these are the ones who are the part of the world and elders telling in our congregation not to join in share markets, because it is like betting and gambling. But what WTS doing in hedge funds?

      • into the light

        WTS is practically a separate org from JW as far as I know, but only on paper of course. But they both still depend on each other. As for being a member of OSCE I’m not sure about that, I’d have to research a bit about it. The point is that similarly as Christians in Jesus’ time we need to follow the same advice he gave to them in Matthew 23:1-7

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          Can you give me your research on WTS connection with OSCE?

          • into the light

            Can you tell me what is the reason you mention OSCE so often? Is there a point to it?

            We know that WTS had been a member of UN as a NGO, and a part of DPI. But those ties have been severed when public found out. They might be involved in some conferences today where other religious groups and NGO’s are convening, but that’s as far as I know.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              WTS says that if you are working in a company and the company takes a contract for painting a Church building. Since you are a JW you are to tell them as a JW you cannot do so. If that is a case how can you go to a conference hosted by an org like OSCE which is a supporter of UN to achieve world peace, who I think so want to creare NAR New age religion initiated by Baha’i faith. If you go to the conference hosted by OSCE your next seat friend is a Freemason, but you cannot talk to an dis-fellowshipped person even if he/she is your own family member. But WTS can hug a Freemason OSCE. Brother OSCE is very dangerous. You don’t know that the connection of WTS with OSCE is embedded prophetically in Naboth, Ahaz, Jezebel incident. When I complete that article I will give you. That is the reason why I often mention OSCE.

            • into the light

              Ok, I see your point. But it is an established fact that WTS has been dealing with bunch of worldly organizations. Not only OSCE. Sometimes JW say they need to cooperate with them “in order to further the kingdom interests”, but I personally don’t pay much attention to it. I’m not even sure what they mean by “kingdom interests” anymore.

              I remember in the book Mankind’s Search for God (maybe you remember this book) they were condemning such interfaith conferences. I’ll have to check whether I still have this book.

              Anyway, here is the list of participants of OSCE conferences for a few years that I could find:

              2010 list of participants
              http://www.osce.org/odihr/75756?download=true

              2015
              https://www.osce.org/odihr/190676?download=true

              2016
              https://www.osce.org/odihr/274356?download=true

              I think if you need more resources you can check out jwfacts website.

              But please, brother, use discernment and pray to Jehovah for holy spirit, so you can stay balanced, as all this negative stuff can wear out your spirit.
              Romans 12:19; Ecclesiastes 5:8

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Yes brother WTS is dealing with bunch of worldly organizations to further their kingdom instrest. So did Jesus or his disciples cooperated with Jewish or Roman emperor to further their kingdom instrest? If WTS tell they want to cooperate with those organization like OSCE that means it is their own admission that Jesus and Jehovah or not backing them. Actually Satan has made a system in such a way to stop Jehovah’s work. He created a system like OSCE like org so as to appear as though even the kingdom work is done through his org, but actually Satan want this so that he can influence the Christian congregation thorough people like board of directors of WTS. So that is what I mean that OSCE is like Jezebel, the board of directors and MOL are like Ahaz and genuine anointed ones are like Naboth the Christian congregation itself is like Naboth’s vineyard. And Jehovah allows such things so that the prophecy may be fulfilled

            • into the light

              What are your thoughts on Jesus and apostles’ teachings, though? Shouldn’t we as Christians devote more time to understanding the sayings that are relevant to us, instead of looking for reasons to condemn WTS? You have to admit that the JW have been instrumental in bringing the truth about ransom to people and are probably the reason you know about Jehovah.

              Those who have the right heart conditions will recognize the error. Those who don’t won’t be convinced by a million arguments you present to them.

            • Thinking

              Absolutely right!l
              Luke16:31
              If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets ( scripture) they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

            • Burt Reynolds

              That is very true. I had forgotten that. I shall post it to my sister forthwith!

            • Coimbatore Isaac

              I don’t look for reasons to condemn WTS, but how all these things fits into the prophecies. What these un-scriptural works the WTS is doing is like the Baal worship in Israel. Ancient Israelites worshiped the Idols of other gods physically and directly. but just read Hosea:2:8;13 and chapter 8:4, how it fits to Christian congregation? How about Hosea:8:6-8 is applicable to modern times? Even though the WTS is not physically and directly worshiping idols the things what they do shows it is indirect idolatry. How about this week’s digging the gems Hosea:1-7 fits into today’s Christian congregation, How about Hosea:2:1-2 or how will you answer especially Hosea:2:3 hey just see verse 9 and worst is especially verse 10. So do you mean to say that such words of Jehovah convinced by a million arguments that Bible presented to them.Yes the MS of my congregation said he will not give me chance to answer this week for Coimbatore guys have come to understand that I apply all the things to Christian congregation that are prophesied on Israel and Judah.

              You said: You have to admit that the JW have been instrumental in bringing the truth about ransom to people and are probably the reason you know about Jehovah.

              Hey I am the one who said that those who talk against the JW organization is not God’s organization should be removed from this site. So will I do that mistake? NO!! I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT JW ORGANIZATION IS GOD’S ORGANIZATION.

              This is my view point: See from the beginning before the arrival of the promised seed the family should be a worshiper of Jehovah. This is the important prerequisite.

              See before Isaac’s birth Abraham’s family were worshipers of Jehovah.

              Before Messiah (= Jesus Christ) came on this earth as human a particular nation was dedicated to Jehovah which was the nation of Israel. Even though they were dedicated to Jehovah by the time Jesus came into that nation its religious system was very much corrupted as Jesus himself acknowledges at Luke:19:46. Similarly in modern days too a particular Christian congregation has to be dedicated to Jehovah before Jesus’ second coming and must also do the work what Jesus had commanded at Mat: 28:19: So again the prerequisite is to bear the name of Jehovah and only addition is belief in Jesus’ name and on his ransom sacrifice. At present it is the only Christian congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses that bears the name of Jehovah. Hence they meet the prerequisites. Though they satisfy the prerequisite, still just like how ancient Israel was corrupted during the Jesus’ time in the way even the modern day Christian congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses is also corrupted by various scandals such as the cover-up of Child sexual abuse cases and being an NGO member in OSCE= Organization for Security Cooperation of Europe and so on before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

            • black curtain

              ITL, I think Isaac talks about WT because he still has connections to them possibly closer than many of us. It is fair for him to condemn them or anyone else that clearly is teaching lies and doing it in God’s good name. More power to him.

              The truth is, that RK does the same thing including this article we are just reading. In fact RK quite frankly discusses the WT’s obliteration never to rise again, even the disappearance of the Christian system, and that needs to be discussed. I am glad that RK does this.
              WT is part of Christendom I have written about this before, and I have seen nothing to show otherwise.

              I seem to recall a woman in the Seattle area who became a leading figure in the NAACP who ended up as a branch president. What was interesting was she claimed to be of African heritage, her problem was her white parents revealed she didn’t have a black bone in her body. Rachel Dolezal — quit her post as president of the Spokane chapter of the NAACP. — Just because you want to be something your not, but claim that you are what you are not, doesn’t make it so. That is also true for the WT. It doesn’t want to be part of Christendom, but because it claims Christianity as its basis then it is stuck with being part of Christendom.

              But to other things. I began comparing Math 24, with Rev and what the sequence of events are in our time and why (Revelation 18:4) says,- 4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins. . .

              Math 24: speaks of the “disgusting thing that causes desolation… (see also Dan 12) but is that a feature of what we are about to experience? Or is that confined to the events surrounding Jerusalem’s destruction?
              So what does the apostle John say regarding these things? What he says is that (Revelation 1:10) By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, . . .
              He came to be in the Lords Day, our time, which his vision came 64 years after the words of Math 24, therefore is there a time sequence priority? Meaning, is this vision in the “Lords Day” to further clarify events? But no mention of a “disgusting thing.” If this was critical why the absence?

              If every one is waiting for this as a signal, you would think that the resurrected Christ, giving John detailed information of the future would not omit this important feature.
              In fact if it is not important many could be caught out by this waiting for something that may not occur.
              Also who is the eighth king, keeping in mind that it, is the one that destroys BTG. (Revelation 17:3-4) . . .And I caught sight of a woman sitting upon A SCARLET COLOURED WILD BEAST that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 4. . . this scarlet coloured beast is the one that kills BTG. So who rises from the abyss of a mortal blow?

              Is it reasonable to think that the nations fight limited wars as RK suggests, realise that the present UN is no use and send that version to purgatory and come up with UN Mk 3 version, a much beefed up muscular body? Read Rev 17 carefully, and unload all of WT speak from your mind, because it gets difficult to follow.
              kindest regards bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              I do not think any forthcoming war will be limited by anyone other than Jehovah. The bible appears to indicate that unless the war was stopped by Jehovah, no one would be saved. I don’t think Robert has suggested it is limited in any way but I cannot say for certain.

              I would hazard a guess that Jesus did not include a signal of any sort of feature for the very same reason that Jehovah has not, saying that none know the time. Jesus would be unlikely to breech that confidence even if he knew it. What he did do was leave signs, or indicators, because the issue is not one of sight, but of faith. I suppose we could consider the signs….for those that look for them, as a hand up, so that we could be ready. As to its critical need, other issues are only mentioned the once. Was that which John had to say a mere repitition of Mathew’s writings, or were there features in his revelation that were not already in Mathew’s writings? It works both ways. Plenty of times you say you will not reiterate; perhaps John felt likewise in his recording.

              Robert does not condemn the watchtower. At least I have not read so. He condemns what they do. A wise choice in my opinion. I have not been convinced by anything that I have read that the watchtower is part of Christendom. If the watchtower is to be the focal point, and we may agree that there must be a focal point, then why would it already be part of Christendom? We know that Christendom cannot be the focal point, as it neglects to tell anyone about the coming kingdom, and is so irrelevant in people’s lives, that its value in people’s lives only amounts to the extent of the adherent’s conscience. And even then, their conscience ( generally ) has nothing to do with the bible other than perhaps, with in a few of the Ten Commandments. Again, generally, they only refer to a nameless God in situations of extremis. Nothing is demanded of the congregants. The fact that hopefully many will survive, is not down to the religion that they are in, or that it is ‘all Christendom’ but the fact that they will choose correctly when Christ does come. The day of Jehovah will have no more meaning to those in Christendom than it would to an uncontacted native in the Brazilian rain forest.

              I begin to wonder sometimes whether the watchtower itself is Christendom because of its relevance to the scriptures and that what is viewed as Christendom is just plain irrelevant in these scriptural issues. I have always been of the opinion that Christendom today is so cheapened and watered down that it is no better or worse or different than anything in the commercial world. After all, was it not the institution of Christendom that overlaid the true congregation, and was instituted by Constantine and not the other way around? Is it not plausible, biblically speaking, that the true representation arose again in this latter period in the shape of the Bible Students, out of Babylon the great? If not, of what relevance is the watchtower at all?

              I don’t view the watchtower in the same vein, mainly because of the work it has done and the representation it pursues and the manner in which it fits into prophecy . Neither am I sure that simply because the watchtower is so flawed, that being so, makes it part of Christendom, simply because we think it should be. The destruction of the temple in 70AD did not make it another religion or indeed the same as another religion. It just was simply destroyed for what it was, and did and is remembered that way, as Jehovah’s temple.

            • Craig Knight

              Burt – I agree with you on Christendom. We have distinct players in end times. 1 The Beast – 2 Christendom which is part of BTG and – 3 The Temple. Christendom by definition is all Christian religions according to the dictionary but Christendom to those of us who know better is the so called Christian religions that are controlled or trapped by Constantine’s teachings. WT has overcome Constantine’s lie’s and so are not a part of Christendom. God chose them to do the preaching work because they were free from those lies. I was confused on this issue for a little while but have come back to this understanding as it makes more sense from scripture. Christendom is responsible for killing God’s people over it’s history and riding the Harlot’s back from their contributing to the wars through out history. So Christendom in my opinion is a distinct player in the end times and Jehovah’s people are not a part of it. We know that Jesus comes to clean the Temple or God’s house not the Beast. We need to keep these players in their separate roles or the whole thing doesn’t make sense. BTG the pagan religions and Christendom will be destroyed by the Beast. Jesus will clean his Temple or his people in his due time.

            • sally

              Yay Craig I am enourmously relieved that you got clarification of thought, and your post is so clearly put as well so thanks for that!

            • into the light

              That’s a really good point, Craig. I appreciate your reasoning on this!

            • Craig Knight

              Thanks! If the WT was a part of Christendom what temple would Christ be cleansing???

            • The Raven

              I agree. What gets me about trying to shoehorn Christendom into Jehovah’s house is the simple fact that it is not just Jehovah’s house that faces judgement and it is not just present Jehovah’s witnesses that will be saved. So why do some people insist on doing that?
              We know it begins with His house and they are a distinct group, apart from Christendom. So what? We also know that when the wt falls other religions will whoop it up over them. Here’s where it gets really interesting. They get it as well, collectively….BUT there will be individuals from among other faiths which will come to recognize Christ and by their condition of heart saved and so will those who do good to Christ’s brothers. Isn’t that great? We know that Christ said few would be saved, Jehovah also said He would make man as rare as the gold of Ophir, so that answers the question of why even a great crowd will seem like few relative to the world’s population. And why must we jam other faiths into the house of God right now when He is very specific about who is His?
              I see no point in the argument at all. Jehovah’s witnesses fit virtually all the prophecies concerning judgment against the house of God. Christendom which has been apostate since it’s inception does not. And let’s say for the sake of giggles it does, does anyone really believe they could become more apostate than they already are since scripture describes an apostasy to take hold of God’s house in the final days? Is there a MOL inside an already lawless organization that does not even know Jehovah? I don’t think so.
              The apostasy emerges from within the house that has the truth and God’s name. Not anyone else. It is the falsehood that Christ has arrived. But being a member of that house does not assure salvation anymore than being a member of other faiths assures death during judgement Day when all is revealed as well as out true natures.. It is what it is.

            • Craig Knight

              Well put Raven and I agree 100 percent! 🙂 Christ judges God’s temple even tho it is polluted. I think we can all trust Christ to do a thorough job of cleaning!!!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Ah! A voice of reason. Thank you Raven.

            • The Raven

              I think the Exodus figures into this prominently. I’ve been looking at the similarities and the Greater Moses. No doubt Jehovah had a foundation which was joined by a vast crowd. I think we are seeing much the same today. The witnesses are the foundation but…His people will not be fully His people until the time of the decision and I expect them to be joined by more. Just as the days of Moses I think there may be a parallel in the final days but with a much better outcome; the end of Christianity, the bible, the prophecies and the system and everything made new. I’ve been wondering about that lately.

            • Thinking

              Those that take hold of the skirt of the Jew when they fled Egypt …..actually represents the great crowd….the Jews represent the Israelites…
              I have seen a few writing here thinking those are ones from the world who may cling to Gods people at the last moment…when in actual fact it is the great crowd(..who have washed their robes in the blood of Christ….)
              Perimeno bought this out years ago…I didn’t like it one little bit …then a few years later the society changed their understanding on it to back up what Perimeno thought…
              For most of my years in the truth I thought and wanted to think that those of the mixed company that joined the Israelites were last minute unbelievers or those of genuine hearted people…who were in Christendom, .but I can see now that thought was wrong…sadly .
              The wilderness and the exodus is a major major parallel of what is happening to his house today…there is heaps in that..

            • Burt Reynolds

              Who are you saying the great crowd is then thinking?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The great crowd will consist of those who give glory to God great name during the tribulations and they will accomplish that by rejecting Satan’s satanic new World Order thus putting Jehovah’s Kingdom first AND avoiding the mark of the wild beast while under pain of death and doing good to Christ brothers / the two witnesses when they arrive.

              Psalm 86:9 All the nations that you made
              Will come and bow down before you, O Jehovah,
              And they will give glory to your name.

              Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun to its setting, my name will be great among the nations. In every place sacrifices will be made to smoke, and offerings will be made to my name, as a pure gift; because my name will be great among the nations,” says Jehovah of armies.

              Where does the great crowd come from?

              Revelation 7:9
              After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all “nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,” standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.

              Isaiah 2:2 In the final part of the days,
              The mountain of the house of Jehovah
              Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,+
              And it will be raised up above the hills,
              And to it all the nations will stream.

              Revelation 15:4 Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, for you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been revealed.”

              The sheep and the goats. Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/25/#v40025031-v40025046

            • Thinking

              Those not of the annoited ..unless there has been new light on it…groan😞
              They are the other sheep..not of the little flock….they come from all the nations…Genisis 12:38 thus a mixed crowd also went up with them

              If I’ve missed something please let me know….

            • Burt Reynolds

              No, not missed anything at all as far as I know. I just wasn’t sure to whom you were referring and which is not difficult in my case! I thought I might have missed something. A ‘spiritual gem’ for me is not so much a flash of light, (old or new) but simply understanding a scripture!

            • Thinking

              Lol 😂

            • The Raven

              I haven’t read Perimeno’s views on this and his site is a little confusing. I also do not agree with some of his views. I’m looking at it from a slightly different perspective. Last minute? Tribulation lasts years. So far 3.5 or 7 depending on how we do the math. Judgment does not begin until the beast rules. During the time from the outset of tribulation til then Robert has described the turmoil not just the WT will be in but all humanity.
              I’m not talking about those who take hold of the skirt of a Jew either. I’m looking at what the situation will be like and trying not to become myopic in assuming that we know who for certain and a better question I think, is “when” are JWs God’s people and “when” is the great crowd? I also do not assume that the preaching work has been the defining factor here. It to me is merely laying the foundation for the core group. We haven’t seen the rest yet.
              Those are some of the issues I’ve been looking at.

            • Thinking

              Well I don’t agree with everything Perimeno says either…nor do I agree with everything Robert says either…I mean they differ on some important things…it’s why I sit back and prepare for different scenarios…I mean if any man now had it completely right why would we need the two witnesses…
              Also we would be shirking on our own responsibility as to our spirituality and searching searching searching…just relying on men once again for all understanding….and neither of those men want that anyway…

              I view Perimeno as having a different gift as to Robert…they but they are both being used….
              Let me know when you feel you have worked out the time thing…as I have not worked it out either….it would be interesting to see and consider your thoughts..good point about the last minute things….I’ve taken note…… am I allowed to ask who you think it is that takes hold of the skirt of the Jew….I’m not being cheeky here…haha…I’m really interested…as it was a major change for me….it took me awhile to accept it…as I didn’t accept it when perimeno wrote that…(and then the society changed their view on it…perhaps Robert had said the same thing but I cannot remember…..both men have a vast amount of work….one cannot remember it all…
              Hope you doing good brother 😀

            • The Raven

              I’m doing fine, Thinking. Thanks for asking. I hope you are too. This isn’t really something I’ve looked at through other people’s teachings. It’s a few thoughts I had that I’ve been batting around for a while now. Since a lot can happen in that interim and scripture does not explain certain matters it just makes me wonder. I’m not expecting a scenario like the exodus, mind you. I am looking at the possibility of quality over quantity and there is scripture to support the salvation of aliens or non jws. But I do not believe they will cling to Jehovah’s people as you mentioned. I do not even know if religion may even be of significance in this. I know that sounds odd. But I am speaking of that unsettled time. If Jehovah examines hearts and minds and Christ can too who exactly are they examining? Just their own? I know judgment begins with God’s house, no doubt. But… the rest are not judged until later. It is that time in between I wonder about. It is a window and I think there is one if judgement is to be fair. What that is I don’t know. What will make it equitable for the masses, many of which do not know any God? We are talking about eternal death here. Not something which even Sodom and Gomorrah suffered. These are things we cannot know for certain at this time. But It doesn’t stop me from wondering especially since most teachings state that baptism is a requirement for survival. I am still examining that. Robert did mention that those who are not baptized may find themselves going through a baptism of fire in the final day. I meant to ask him to clarify that one, but I don’t know if I should. lol!
              I am still looking at the skirt of the Jew scripture and several others like the Samaritan, The Phoenician woman, the Centurion etc. This may take a while… 🙂

            • Thinking

              As you know I am reading a lot of russels writing and watching a lot of his utube sermons….I can discern the errors I think reasonably well but I’m learning so much from his basic understandings …man he really had Holy Spirit Working on him with that part….
              I have just listened to Rutherford talking on iTunes. It’s titled enemies…you will find that fascinating..because he raises your thoughts here..and says we cannot be dogmatic about who survives Armageddon ..he says something really controversial…and that for some ..e.g. Those who never had a chance to get witnessed to..may get a ressurection from Armageddon….some wont….. infact he makes note that many won’t as they were willfully ignorant…dead from one end of the earth..and all that..

              Now I don’t want to get into a contoversay with any one here…as I don’t know either way….I just find so many talks from Knorr Russell and Rutherford very interesting….as it’s all part of getting to know Jehovah..and I learn from each one something…and how the deluding influence birthed and grew…

              On a personal opinion..I think we will get a lot of surprises when all this plays out….and if I do survive to see this…and even better IF I survive thru this to the New World..I bet I say to myself….how come I didn’t see all of that..how come I missed so much????
              Good to see you are traveling reasonably well..it’s nice to hear 😀

            • The Raven

              I practically dance on third rails sister so don’t worry about controversy. I might give that a listen. Thanks for mentioning that. I don’t know much about their personal thoughts having immersed myself in what turned out to be my undoing right off the bat; prophecy. It wasn’t til I came here that I learned much more. It’s something that makes me question how and if I and others qualify to be considered. There are some here like me. I’ll mull it over some more . Thanks for your thoughts on this, I appreciate that. 😊

            • into the light

              .I think we will get a lot of surprises when all this plays out

              From now on I am announcing new things to you,
              Guarded secrets that you have not known.
              Only now are they being created, and not long ago,
              Things that you never heard before today,
              So that you cannot say, ‘Look! I already know them.’

              from Isaiah 48

            • Sam Knight

              Awesome chapter!

            • into the light

              I love how powerful it is. When I read it I literally have to hold my breath.

            • into the light

              I feel that you’ve taken the right direction in your thinking about this. Here is my convoluted take at it, so please bear with me as it might not be completely connected to what the 2 of you have been discussing. Judgment starts with the god’s house. But is the god’s house JW or is god’s house the temple? Jehovah has been know to reside in the most holy in the tabernacle and later in the temple. I think the temple are the anointed ones. The ones that serve as kings/priests in Christ’s kingdom.
              Also worth noting is that it was a head priest that gave in to Israelites’ demand to make them the golden calf to worship in the wilderness when Moses went up the mountain to bring back god’s instructions. Aren’t we in the same situation today? Jesus went up to god and our high priests made a golden calf for us to worship…

              Another thing to think about when you mention masses that don’t know any god: Daniel’s prophecy says that in the last days many will rove about the true knowledge will be abundant. Daniel 12:4
              And when you connect that to the clear choice that we will have during the test, it’s pretty obvious that it all boils down to the free will and our using it to accept Jehovah’s right to determine what’s good for us as we, like yesterday’s daily scripture says “[…] are not created with the right of self-determination, to be independent of God […]”

            • The Raven

              You make a couple of very interesting points there. I believe it requires further study. Your thoughts intersect with ours in some ways but I am still chewing on it. These in no way change my belief that jws are the people who the prophets spoke of. Not other “christians”.

            • into the light

              I just kinda dropped into your discussion and thought some of that might be helpful in working it out. I discussed with Richard about JW and other “christians” and actually it occurred to me that we may be in situation that parallels the first outpouring of the spirit, where the news started to be preached all over, but it was still only Jews (JWs?) at that time. We know that after that gentiles gained favor, starting with Cornelius’ anointing, and where it went from there.

            • The Raven

              Do you seriously think that christendom is a potential pool? I don’t. The big difference between then and now is end game. Think about it…

            • into the light

              I don’t think so. At least not the ones from their leadership. But there may be people with right heart condition still trapped in there who could be chosen.

            • The Raven

              For life in the kingdom maybe. But annointed? I would be very wary of any outside the truth who make that claim at this point. Many have been leading jws away and have very different ideas of who His people are.

            • into the light

              Ok you will have to bear with me as it’s hard to put these thoughts to words. I hope I can be coherent enough. EN is not my first language after all…
              So, to clarify: It’s not only christendom that I was thinking about. It’s actually all over the place. But not at this point. That’s why I mentioned the first spirit outpouring that happened on Pentecost 33 CE. So Jews (JW) were the ones who got to bring the good news and preach it. But they didn’t own it. And it was hard for them to accept that gentiles would even be considered…

              I’m not sure how to describe it but I hope this makes sense:
              Both pharisees and their followers were Jews. But so were the first disciples. But disciples accepted the good news while Pharisees stuck to old traditions (which were perversion of god’s law). So in the same way, we have JW who come form Christendom because they accepted the good news and Christendom sticks to old traditions (which are perversion of good news from Jesus).

              So we are in a situation right now where JW are like disciples who accepted the good news and are preaching it (but don’t own it). And There is Christendom who accuses them of not being Christians in the same way as Pharisees accused Jesus’ disciples of not following the law.
              There still needs to be that second spirit outpouring (Cornelius et al.)

              I’m not sure whether this makes sense to you, so pls let me know what you think.

            • The Raven

              If you beleive Jehovah had a hand in their beginnings then they did not come from them. The Jews were still following the law as a whole but was christendom? Were they ever? The differences are stark.

            • into the light

              Christendom did start out as true Christians. And Jews actually perverted the law.

            • The Raven

              Constantine? Really? Jews may have perverted it but they were still bound by it as a whole. People still did as God commanded. Jesus still worshipped there. Did christendom once established? My understanding is they were apostate from their beginning.

            • into the light

              But it didn’t appear out of the blue. It was a slow progression of corrupting influences until at some point it got formally announced as official. What makes you so sure that JW wont be used by the beast in the same way?

            • The Raven

              Scripture. The wt goes down. Those who cling to it afterwards will become part of btg. Those who have faith in jehovah are saved. Christendom on the other hand, well you already know.

            • The Raven

              Are you saying you think there may be a reconciliation between jehovah and christendom?

            • into the light

              No. There will be reconciliation between Jehovah and mankind. And Jesus is the one that will refine us to the point where he will be able to present us to Jehovah for reconciliation.

            • The Raven

              That is true. But christendom is given special attention for her crimes against God’s people. The bad condition of heart may be nothing more than being in agreement with an “insitution” which promotes killing, suffering of others and the beast. No matter who they are at that time. But they certainly have a bloody trail.

            • into the light

              But Jews did too. They were his chosen people yet they killed his son. It is basically the same situation. Same like that fractal picture I posted. That’s why it’s so confusing and hard to discern. The time didn’t yet come for us to know the exact details.

            • The Raven

              Thats why jehovah saw fit to present the good news in the final day. Similarities, yes but like I said that makes this all different since it is the end. It’s not easy. What fits, what don’t. I see nothing in common with christendom. If those who follow jehovah will be saved with great difficulty then what of those who do not? That holds for the last days as well. Given my circumstances, it is something I think about.

            • into the light

              Speaking of parallels and similarities,I just read the comment which reminded me that satan, similarly to the beast that goes into abyss is also thrown into abyss where he is held for 1000 years and comes again to test the world. Pretty striking similarities to the one before Armageddon. Again the fractal thing… I am just not convinced that we are able to know everything at this time. That is also why a great deal of faith is required. We have a general idea of how the things will be, but unless the spirit is outpoured on us all we can do is speculate. And we know that time for outpouring is still future. I think we will be able to recognize the scriptures fulfilling as it happens and not actually claim we know beforehand.

            • The Raven

              Thats how I see it as well. But, there’s no harm in guessing and sometimes it leads to greater insight when we do.

            • The Raven

              The Way came from the jews, at the time God’s people. Christendom is it’s own abomination and was apostate since its beginnings. They had already infiltrated before the last of the holy ones passed. They entered and then took away the flock. Nothing but death and confusion has come from them.

            • into the light

              History of Jews actually shows how as his chosen people they barely could keep up with the requirement of the law and they were kept as god people solely to fulfill gods promise to Abraham that messiah will come from them. On the other hand you can’t look for the exact parallel with Christendom. The messiah already came. And he sowed the seed. And then Satan sowed the weeds. It’s not the same…

            • The Raven

              That’s why I don’t see them the same way. In fact the Pharisees seem to be the leadership of the wt. Not christendom for obvious reasons. 🙄

            • into the light

              Christendom is like the “discarded” Jews from the time of the apostles. But apostles still came out from them. And even after that on his way to persecute god’s people Paul was chosen as his apostle. And he was actually give the opportunity to see Jesus as not even his apostles could see him, in his heavenly glory. And it wasn’t even a vision…

            • The Raven

              Discarded? They steamrolled true christians and everyone else. I’d say they were more like the barbarians or islamic hordes. The jews declined in power and at present are just another nation. But christendom? Almost a world power itself. It has great influence and wealth. But as I said before there is a finality. What everyone is caught doing is what they are confronted with. How that shakes out, I dont know.

            • into the light

              Yeah, discarded by god in that they weren’t considered his people. And during the time of Roman attack on Jerusalem they were crushed and scattered all over the world. As far I as I’m concerned they ceased to exist as a people then. How is that declined? Again, I am not looking at literal parallels here… doesn’t matter that Christendom are world power. Given time JW could also become. I mean look at the level of power they have of their subjects in only 100+ years of their existence. Catholics could only dream about that. They had to do it forcefully and it took them long time to get there. But what does that have to do with anything anyway?

            • The Raven

              How many? about 8 million. Christendom about one billion. Yeah, no comparison. 🙂

            • into the light

              But what do you think about Paul’s example? He was chosen out of the those that lost god’s favor. He was on his way to execute God’s chosen ones. And then he got chosen and was shown greater favor than the ones who walked with Jesus in that he saw Jesus in his heavenly glory. What makes you think that something similar couldn’t happen again?

            • The Raven

              In the final days if you harm any one of Christs’s brothers you are muerto. That’s why. The time, man. The time. The end. The only allowance I see scripturally for one who happens to be from another faith for salvation is for them to do GOOD by one of Christs’s brothers. That involves the right condition of heart. No where do I see where an anointed will come from outside His people. That is unique to His house. Now the great crowd does not have the same circumstances as the anointed. I do not expect the anointed from outside Jehovah’s people. I do expect that jws do not know who among them truly are anointed. I would say, some are genuine, some are not. But the one who Knows is Jehovah and when Christ returns He will immediately make himself known to them when He cleans Jehovahs house, not christendom.

            • into the light

              I’m not sure I can agree that anointed are coming only from JW. That is an assumption and I need scriptural proof for that. What about before JW were formed? Were there anointed in the Catholic church? How about the ones that revealed the wrong teachings or the ones that made bible available to ordinary folks? What about the timespan between the death of the apostles and the beginning ofJW? It doesn’t make sense..

            • The Raven

              I don’t doubt some in the past were. But again, the time and the fact that jehovah has a temple now. That makes a big difference.

            • into the light

              So when was the temple established? Wasn’t it on pentecost 33 CE?

            • The Raven

              Do you believe jws are Jehovah’s people? Do you believe that in these final days they are fulfilling scripture and will fulfill it to their end? If you do then jehovah has a modern day temple such as it is. That people has recognized the chosen ones and have been fed by them to announce the truth and the kingdom. They were the ones who gathered them to this day. It is that group which will be disciplined to the proper extent from within Jehovah’s house. A physical temple which will soon be done away with by spirit when Christ returns. Btw let me add there is a difference in the situation of those chosen who have died and those who will be here through tribulation.

            • into the light

              Why are you diverting to JW now? It needs to be understood what the temple is. The temple is spiritual. Paul was speaking about the spiritual temple while the physical one was still in existence. We need to have this in the clear. What happened to the temple that was established on pentecost? was that destroyed too? Where is it if it wasn’t? Where has it been for the past almost 2000 years?
              We need to establish this before we can put JW in the picture.

            • The Raven

              See my last comment. I clarified what I meant.

            • The Raven

              Lol. We’re talking about two different things here. I should have said organization. I am well aware what the temple is. I hope that makes more sense.

            • into the light

              it does but it takes it into entirely different direction.

            • The Raven

              Yes, it does! I was wondering why you were explaining that! Lol!

            • into the light

              Because we were talking about the anointed. And the anointed are the temple.

            • The Raven

              Let me clarify what I mean by temple. I mean an organization similar to the first congregations. I am shaking my head at that description but thats it. Lol.

            • into the light

              I think that it’s possible prophecies will be fulfilled on JW not because Jehovah chose them but because they chose him. And they took in on themselves to represent him in this system. And they have been doing a great job in bringing reproach to his name. That’s why they will be judged.

            • The Raven

              You don’t think they were lead by Jehovah’s spirit to preach the kingdom and make known His name? Hmm….

            • into the light

              I said it’s a possibility. We need to use more scriptures instead of trying to “out-proof” each other 😆.
              That being said, I think this is where it gets more interesting… It was the individuals who were led by spirit to uncover the lies. It is the individuals that are anointed. And then there are the ones that believed those individuals, same as in the time of apostles, and started preaching it.

            • The Raven

              I’m going by what evidence from scripture we have to identify them. They fit. He also calls them His people. Those associated with them to further the truth. That’s correct about the organization as in the past, but they were not in the final hours. I think we are.

            • into the light

              As far as I know it all stands. But it kinda doesn’t make sense that anyone can call themselves god’s people since god is the one that chooses. And that didn’t happen yet. If there were chosen people then what is the point of separation of weeds and wheat. It is still growing. The original apostles were the fine seed that Jesus sowed. Notice that every stalk of wheat is an individual. And those individuals are scattered with weeds among them. God appeals to people who have the qualities he looks for. Wheat has certain qualities. Now try picturing how that field might look. I see a bunch of weeds with small groups of wheat interspersed among it, since weed grows much faster and spreads like crazy. That’s why the weeds are collected first. cause it’s easier to get rid of with broad strokes…

            • The Raven

              That’s where we either believe they were lead by Jehovah’s spirit and stand apart as the people who are known by His name or we do not. You’re right it all stands as far as we know. But, if you and some others who commented here remember a comment I made a few days ago about shoehorning christendom into His house, you’ll have a better view of what I think. It was a long post, so I won’t rehash it here.

            • into the light

              I do remember. The one you made to Craig. But it doesn’t hurt to reconsider. After all people have been trying to understand god’s word for over 2000 years. We can’t be the ones to say we finally got it. JW claim that “now we finally get it” and then there is more “new light”. Remember those verses from Isaiah 48?
              But I think we can use it to build our faith and sharpen our discerning powers. Because as I said we can’t know what will happen beforehand. We can only recognize it once it starts happening.

            • The Raven

              I stated that judgment was different for the house of God and for the world for obvious reasons. The one to befall His house is very well outlined and it will be devastating. I do not know when exactly the two witnesses arrive in that time frame or if there is a large enough interval for more to come to an understanding from the downfall to the judgment. I am also thinking about those on the peripherals who have for years been associated but not “in”. There must be hundreds of thousands, not counting those who have faded or been DFD for unjustified reasons. That’s quite a few folks. There is also the strong possibility that many of them will turn on them as they are doing right now and attack them for their beliefs. I think the behavior we see now is a good indicator of what will happen later not just in denial but in outright hostility towards them.
              But that’s all expected. Isn’t it? Interesting times. lol!

            • into the light

              I think I will need a while to digest all that we talked about today. I certainly need to spend quite some time with my face buried in the bible. The main idea is there but it’s so deep. Again that fractal comes to mind LOL 🤓

            • The Raven

              Read my reply to thinking.

            • The Raven

              The wheat and weeds are in house if I recall correctly.

            • into the light

              The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world.
              As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,
              and the reapers are angels.

              Matthew 13:36-43

            • The Raven
            • into the light
            • Thinking

              Even the brothers have said in the past there were many probably annoited they out time…maybye Luther …or many others..who can know..we cannot judge who is and who has not been….but you bought up a point about Pail being bought out from the Jewish system,,, as an annoited one….but who did he attach himself once annoited….was it not to Jehovah’s house…and there after he directed all to Jehovah’s people from then on..
              Jehovah and Jesus can bring ANYONE out from Christendom to be saved…just like angels phsycally pulled Lot and his wife OUT OF sodom…and where did Lot retreat to…a city of refuge….
              Is Jehovah’s arm cut short…in pulling anyone out of BTG….is it?????
              All I know is he has said that the road is narrow and few are on it…it is not only narrow but cramped and darn hard to stay on it..

              Mathew 7-13-14
              Enter thru the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it.
              But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a FEW find it

            • into the light

              It is the anointed that comprise the temple. And then there are us who believe them and take up the task that was given. The congregations at that time were basically struggling to hold onto the true knowledge and Paul was constantly reminding them to stay on the course. He was afraid for them not to fall off. There was no unified org at that time. It was the truth that held them together. And it was the holy spirit that gave the holy ones the understanding.
              Now this leads me to wonder who the 7 congregations from revelation are…
              I have so many questions. Sorry if it sounds confusing.

            • Thinking

              Actually brother I thought that comment got swallowed up and spat out into outer space…I didn’t know if I posted so I wrote another one…so if I sound like I repeated myself …I did…lol..

              It is easy to get confused brother….you honestly think any forum or comments section has not been infiltrated with a demon at work on them…
              They love these types of places….they Want confusion and condemnation of Gods remaining house and people…because it weakens ones…it throws one into turmoil and we get caught up into empty discussions that lead nowhere…

              Jehovah is not a tricky God…he is not a confusing God or cruel….really the best we can do is constantly read his word and beg for Holy Spirit …nothing surpasses that…
              Stand steady…stand firm…

            • into the light

              That’s why I said to Raven that we can’t know certain things at present and need to use god’s word to sharpen out discerning powers in order to recognize things ince they start happening. But it is certainly tempting to stretch our minds like this. 🤓

            • Thinking

              Stretch it as far as you like…I just don’t want you to stray of the road…lol..I’m a worry wort…😉

            • into the light

              I hope not to. I am convinced in my heart that I have found the truth. This is just polishing my visor so I can see better 😁

            • The Raven

              I’m glad to know that! 😎

            • The Raven

              I am not saying there were not anointed in the past long before JWs. The anointed in the final day will have been a part of the house that gets disciplined starting with them first. Correct? So how will they come from somewhere else?

            • Thinking

              I agree with you Raven…can you not see that?..

            • The Raven

              I have no doubt jehovah pulls many from everywhere but in the end, the ones who get the beatings are among His already and it’s for what they’ve done before Christ arrives. I was more or less replying to several statements. It’s cool, sister! 😉

            • Thinking

              We are already being beaten Brother ….but I know you know that 👍

            • The Raven

              Well, the trib will either make us or break us. All of us.

            • into the light

              That’s why it’s confusing. There are so many levels to this. It’s not linear.
              How is the field where wheats and weeds grow together the org? And if it is the org what about the rest of the world then?

            • The Raven

              The judgements are different for that reason. Take a look at those articles as Robert explains it in depth. The judgment that applies to anointed and crowd are very different. Think sheep and goats for us and the world. Lol!

            • into the light

              Again fractals LOL.

            • The Raven

              Any comment on the reply I made to thinking about the anointed ?

            • into the light

              I’m trying to understand where that comes from. Judging the anointed. Could you point me to the scripture. Because anointed that are acceptable will be sealed and ones that don’t “qualify” will share the fate of the weeds (as far as I am aware). I need to see more scriptures about this.

            • The Raven

              They are disciplined and refined. They are given beatings commensurate with how they behaved, some willfully bad, some ignorant others deluded, but you are correct, the ones who turn out to be evil will be destroyed. Their judgment actually begins when they are called. They must not do anything to lose their crowns. It isn’t til just before the tribulation that they are sealed. That is why I stated that they must already be in His house to be dealt with and also suffer humiliation during the tribulation. We, on the other hand are judged by how we treat them and how we view the returning Christ and His brothers.

              This article has many details and scripture to support it.
              https://e-watchman.com/time-of-your-inspection/

            • The Raven

              What about the anointed being in His house when christ returns to mete out punishment? They are dealt with and refined first. Still think they come from outside the house?

            • into the light

              Hey, I need some downtime to digest all this as I said before. I noted the articles you sent and will give them a read. I’m off to take it easy now. I appreciate your input and insight and had a really great time discussing.

            • The Raven

              Cool. It’s near midnight here. Later, 😊

            • The Raven

              That’s interesting about pulling out of wherever. Isn’t that what the jws have done? Literally from everywhere? That will continue up until the tribulation begins. Then the preaching stops. Does the invitation also stop at that point? Since there will be no more wt or memorial or studies? I know those who are called are not sealed until just before their deaths. Those who died in the past before that last group have already been sealed. There is a reason I wonder about that.
              Do you recall a conversation I had with Max couple months ago about letters from the anointed being discarded? He said that Bethel did not give them much if any consideration at all. I found that astonishing. I also asked how many claim to have a calling and Craig posted a list which showed a steady decline for many years until about 2002 when we saw an increase. We now stand at appx 18,000. That’s remarkable.
              Apparently the GB does not like this much since they even went so far as to imply that many were off in the head or presumptuous. lol! I think it made them very upset. So seven men determine what policy and truth is and disregard the insight of 18,000? Hmmm.
              I also think a large number of those folks were INVITED. If they were called then it would mean the GB is in direct opposition to Jehovah AND Christ. That also describes the MOL and what sort of evil they’ve been up to.
              Those 18,000 are from all over the world and chose to associate with Jehovah’s witnesses. Makes me wonder. Could this influx be an indicator that the time is near?
              I also stated before that I consider His house a little more loosely than the WT org does. I think it includes a much larger number than we know. JWs don’t really have any way of knowing how they impact folks when they reveal the truth to people. I don’t know for certain but if I were to guess, there are a lot more who will have their eyes opened when tribulation starts. But will they do right by Christ’s brothers or other sheep or will they pass by and not stop to help as did the Samaritan? I am interested in knowing what you think about this.

            • Thinking

              Well can you imagine how many letters etc they get from thousands with new understandings…thousands and thousands…how can they read them all..it’s not possible .
              There is a brother over here who gave excellent talks..he was an elder…he writes to the society…and now claims to be Jesus Christ
              I know from what Ive seen about on forums etc is that many who now partake don’t actually claime to be annoited…or invited ..they claim we should all partake..every single one of us…
              They do not view it as a covenant made for a kingdom..but a covenant for forgiveness of sins and a new relationship with Jehovah..
              I can remember that the word covenant doesn’t appear In Any other translation at Luke 22:28-30 except ours..NWT..
              Even our own Interline shows the word covenant has been inserted…that was a bit of a shock to me..
              So many now partaking don’t consider themselves even invited…they look at partaking totally different to how Robert or the society teaches..

              Once you realise that…it sort of explains the large increase a bit…
              As to just who is MOL…is it all seven men???..who can say…

              I don’t know who is right or wrong on it…each person and the society gives a good explanation for their belief ..I no longer know what is right and what’s wrong on the subject…
              I don’t even know why we need to know who is claiming to be annoited …
              Over here we have cenusus done every five years …and about 80 thousand claimed to be Jehovah’s witnesses …but at the time there was only about 40 thousand witnesses….going by the way the society counts us…

              I bet there are many many thousands out there…who consider themselves witness but never went on to get baptised..for whatever reason…probably some very valid and honest reasons as well.
              Who can know…but he knows who they Are…and their heart condition and if they are genuine……but then there is the argument …have they picked up their torture stake…
              As you know to serve the true God is a major sacrifice….it hurts….aaaah and so it goes on..
              I just know he is A Just God..and not one of his sheep will be lost…he’ll hunt them down and search them out as the fine Shepard he is….

              It’s one of the things that he uses Holy Spirit ..THE HELPER….in abundance..
              The majority of us have all come out of christendom..or BTG….can we honestly think he won’t search and find these ones..
              Personally I view it as a insult to his power and Holy Spirit to think he cannot do this…not only him but Jesus and all the angels tirelessly working to bring many Lots out of BTG…just like Lot was dragged out physically …many are dragged out of BTG…..that’s the helper doing that…amazing really.

              Hope your doing okay Raven..🙂

            • The Raven

              I did consider also what has been occurring with those who partake but I also know that prophecy speaks of 7,000 who will be killed in the final days. With the steady decline in those numbers it is now apparent there would not have been enough here. I would say, there is something to it. I am not trying to guess who is and isn’t. I’m just trying to see how this might fit. I know jehovah can draw whoever He chooses and He already has. I directed my question to Kevin on that matter of when. Thanks for your reply, sis. 😊

            • into the light

              Thanks for sharing this, lots of interesting points. This one especially stood out to me:

              I don’t even know why we need to know who is claiming to be annoited

              I’ve been wondering this myself for a while. Especially since the anointed wouldn’t be revealed until the time comes for it. It’s not like they have some special insight or are better than us. But then again what do I know? My point is they will be revealed in time.
              Having said that, it makes me wonder if only them partaking at this time is akin to them revealing themselves before the time… Also, when Jesus instituted the memorial, apostles weren’t anointed by spirit yet. If partaking means acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice, does it mean we decline it every year by passing the plate and glass?

            • Richard Long

              It absolutely means we reject the body and blood of Christ. That part is the no-brainer and we all know it, because we do it on purpose, as instructed.

              The salient question becomes: should any Christian do it? That is where we wade into the mire of doctrine and dogma, ours (JW) coming to a fairly unique conclusion.

              IF JW’s are the one true Christian faith, then one must conclude our non- inspired directives must be followed without question.

              IF JW’s are the one true faith in apostasy, then one must determine which doctrine or dogma is borne from Holy Spirit and which is borne from the spirit directing the MOL in the operation of error. For us it is generally here agreed the operation of error is the false parousia delusion. To our specific doctrine of “other sheep” (WTdefinition) are expected to refuse the body and blood of Christ” we determine proximate cause: But for the false parousia doctrine, would the two classes of sheep (as defined by JW doctrine) exist? Answer: no. Why? The false parousia doctrine commenced in 1874 (for we JW’s) and survives to now. For over 60 years, all Christians associating with the ISBA were expected to partake of the body and blood of Christ if their own spirit found them worthy. The non-inspired, spirit directed Joseph Rutherford laboring under the operation of error and either being or being influenced by the MOL, then introduced a separation of destines for each Christian to choose for themselves which destiny – meeting God or meeting Abraham (imminently, mind us) – gave them happier thoughts. And he gave the paradise bound the (mis)? designation of “other sheep” and saddled them with the “other sheep must refuse the blood and body of Christ” doctrine. But for the “existence” of two classes of sheep, would any of JW’s refuse the blood and body of Christ? Who knows?. The MOL have had a whole ‘nother 80+ year s to make mischief, but in the 1930’s? No, unless their spirit judged them unworthy.

              Hope that helps.
              Agape, RL

            • into the light

              Thanks, Richard. I think this subject requires a lot more research in order to come to accurate understanding. Also, the second part of your comment is worded in a way that’s bit hard for me to understand.
              I know that the other sheep as we understand it now was something that Rutherford hastily came up with because the number of bible students was growing rapidly and it didn’t fit with his understanding of “Armageddon is imminent” at that time. This also leads to thinking whether 144000 are separate class at all. I’m not well versed in this particular subject so I’ll put in on my list of things to consider.

            • Richard Long

              determining proximate cause is a tool of jurisprudence. that was an exercise .

            • Thinking

              A lot feel that That’s why they partake. …..there is a lot of confusion going on in Gods house at this time. But that just backs up the revealing that’s going on….. Jehovah knows full well that we cannot understand everything at this time ….nor does he expect us to
              I have observed you hesitation over baptism and others encouraging you not to….putting doubts in your mind.
              I asked Jehovah to help you out with this confusing time.
              Yeah the second question at baptism has been slipped in there…probably for legal reasons…but we do belong to a spirit directed org…in the fact that Jehovah has used us in the world wide preaching work.
              I wish we didn’t have that second question too…but at this time Jehovah is still allowing it….so I would say your safe to go. There are so many errors he allows…he will fix it in his time ….😀…..and anyway baptism isn’t making a vow to Jehovah. ( as we teach). It’s a request for forgiveness of sins …all the best with your Decsion brother

            • into the light

              Thank you sister, it means a lot to me. Please see my comment to Kevin re: baptism. You can find it here: http://disq.us/p/1n8zb7l
              I made this comment before I saw yours. Some points you bring actually address some of the questions I have. Thanks again sis! May Jehovah bless you and show you his grace.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              They will not just pass them by like they did in the Samaritans case when they left him for dead on the road but in fact according to the Bible they would be the cause of their deaths.

              Matthew 10:
              16 “Look! I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves.
              17 Be on your guard against men, for they will hand you over to local courts and they will scourge you in their synagogues.
              18 And you will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.
              19 However, when they hand you over, do not become anxious about how or what you are to speak, for what you are to speak will be given you in that hour;
              20 for the ones speaking are not just you, but it is the spirit of your Father that speaks by you.
              21 Further, brother will hand brother over to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death.
              22 And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured* to the end will be saved.

              23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another;for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

              And how do we know to for sure that this is a parallel and is for the immediate future? be cause Jesus said “for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
              Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/10/#v40010016-v40010025

            • The Raven

              Yes, you’re right. They will. I know Robert has written on the subject of the door closing for salvation. When this occurs, I understand there will be no more preaching and no more called. What’s already there will be disciplined and refined. It applies equally to God’s people, anointed and great crowd. In several articles he states it is the beginning of tribulation for God’s people with judgment for the rest following. Has he discussed this before?

            • The Raven

              https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-144000/
              Excerpt:
              “Obviously, the name of Jesus’ personal God is not Jesus. So, the question Jehovah’s Witnesses ought to pose to their trinitarian friends is: How reasonable is it that persons who do not even acknowledge that God has a personal name, or who refuse to use it, would have the very name they despise written upon them? Only Jehovah’s Witnesses have happily received the sacred name of God and display it before the world, as if written upon their foreheads. And ultimately, the anointed among their number who are faithful to the end, he that “conquers,” will have the name of Jesus’ God – Jehovah – written upon them.”

              Kevin I somehow missed this little gem. It answers part of my questions. Another part is answered by this:

              https://e-watchman.com/many-first-will-last-last-first/

              Excerpt:
              “So, in the illustration both the early hires and the 11th hour hires received the exact same wage. But, how could it possibly be reasoned that the Pharisees and apostles received the same kingdom wage? It is not reasonable, nor is it scriptural. And by extension, neither is it reasonable or scriptural to apply the illustration of the discontented workers to the clergy of Christendom or identify the anointed brothers from 1919 as the 11th hour workers.

              However, the illustration applies most fittingly to the modern development of Jehovah’s organization. The workers hired in the first hour are the older anointed and Governing Body. They have indeed tirelessly worked in the field all day, as it were. The 11th hour workers in the illustration symbolize those anointed most recently and perhaps those yet to be anointed in the immediate future.”

              These clear up a good bit and I am still looking for the answer to the other question I had.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Good points to ponder over.
              1 These points in particular when you said “Witnesses have happily received the sacred name of God and display it before the world,” as if written upon their foreheads”. [unlike many of those of Christendom].

              2 But, how could it possibly be reasoned that the Pharisees and apostles received the same kingdom wage? It is not reasonable, nor is it scriptural. And by extension, neither is it reasonable or scriptural to apply the illustration of the discontented workers to the clergy of Christendom.

            • The Raven

              This was something I had first been made aware of decades ago about the name.
              After reading Robert’s work on the parabels of the wheat and weeds, slaves, virgins and workers I agree with him that they apply to jws. Some now, some during the trib.

            • The Raven

              Well, this is a surprise,: AFTER you believed. The implications are interesting.

              “After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.” —Ephesians 1:13b-14

              I understand the eleventh hour workers to also be from the same pool as the workers hired throughout the day. The same ones being looked at sideways by older anointed in the wt.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The faithful slave and an evil slave (45-51) Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/24/#v40024045-v40024051

            • The Raven

              Thanks, that’s something which also shows they will have already been acting in some capacity before hand. It struck me as an odd thing to say but it makes sense.

            • Thinking

              If they were annoited in the Catholic Church they wouldnt stay there…that’s for sure…they would have to get out of her..

            • into the light

              Of course, I agree. I totally get your point. But that makes the JW chosen people notion obsolete then. But they are still important in gods plan. That’s why the dragnet makes sense to apply to JW. So JW as a framework to make the good news known, but they will be judged because of making an idol and diverting the attention to how awesome the dragnet is. And the whole point of this discussion is just that. The god’s temple is spiritual so above any man-made org. I hope this makes sense..

            • Thinking

              The dragnet does apply to us….we had that applied to us by a bethel brother at an assembly…I nearly fell of my seat..

            • Bklyn Kevin

              2 Peter 3:15- 18.
              Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant* and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
              You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness. No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.Read more>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-peter/3/#v61003015

            • into the light

              Hi Kevin, not sure if you’re implying that I am twisting things here, but I consider this exchange as a discussion to come to an understanding.

            • The Raven

              Hey, man that could have been addressed to both of us. It was posted to me. Lol! But it’s a good reminder anyway. Chill. This is interesting.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              No I was not trying to imply anything however here is some food for thought

              Why Jehovah’s Witnesses?.

              Excerpt:
              Question: While you do make very good and fascinating points, the question I have is the following: Everything in Prophecy (Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.) you point to the JW’s as per the fulfillment. Is it not possible that these prophecies can also point to say the Adventists, Mormons, Baptists, Christadelphians, etc? How can you be so sure it is only the JW’s they point to? Aren’t all religions misguided and cults?

              True enough, the vast majority of persons who profess to be followers of Jesus are not really. Jesus himself indicated that the road to destruction is broad and wide and many are those traveling upon it. Whereas, the road to life is narrow and comparatively few will find it. Jesus specifically said that not everyone who calls him “Lord” will be saved —only those doing his Father’s will.
              So, first it is a matter of determining what God’s will is, and then using that as a metric to establish who is at least trying to do the Father’s will.
              The foremost identifying factor would be that true Christians would be public preachers. Isn’t that one of Jesus’ foremost commands —‘go, and make disciples, teaching them’?
              When Jehovah’s Witnesses knock on someone’s door they are never mistaken for an Adventist, Baptist or Christadelphian, are they? And the Mormons don’t really qualify since their young people only do a two-year hitch as missionaries and then they are done. Besides, the book of Mormon is nonsensical —no other way to describe it. The author of the book of Mormon, whoever he may have been, apparently read the old King James and then re-arranged it and added some new characters. It is pure fiction. Anyone who would confuse the Latter Day Saints with Jehovah’s Witnesses is woefully ignorant.
              But it is undeniable that public witnessing is what Jehovah’s Witnesses are known for. And over the past 100 years the Watchtower has published their message far and wide, now in hundreds of languages and on every continent. Didn’t Jesus say that the good news would be preached throughout the world as a prelude to the end?
              Since the religionists of Christendom refuse to call God by his proper name and are in no way associated with it, it is they who will have to know he is Jehovah when he sanctifies himself in connection with those who have, regrettably, profaned his name. Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/why-jehovahs-witnesses-2/

              What is the Great Tribulation and Holy Place?

              Excerpt:
              The 8th chapter of Daniel also connects the holy place, the sanctuary and the constant feature with the “Prince of the army,” who is Christ. So, the “putting in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation”is in reference to the sanctuary of Jehovah, of which Christ is both the cornerstone and High priest. Given the similar content and wording of the prophecies of Daniel it should be evident to the discerning reader that the holy place that is destined to come to desolation and be trampled underfoot by the nations for an appointed time is the earthly domain of the holy ones – Christ’s true congregation. It most certainly is not Christendom or Babylon the Great.Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/great-tribulation-holy-place/

              Read a lot more>Search results for: Christendom.
              https://e-watchman.com/?s=Christendom

            • into the light

              Thanks, Kevin. As usual, very on-point answer.

            • into the light

              What I meant is that Paul was chosen out from the ones that were rejected by god. The fact that he was persecuting them is secondary, and just reinforces the notion that god chooses whom he wants.

            • Observing Quietly

              So Raven, I have been reading all your responses here and have a question for you…..since you don’t believe anyone outside the Org. can be of the anointed, explain why the WT says that William Tyndale was probably of the anointed? He translated the Bible for the common people, was alive before JW were even a thought. You cannot say that Jehovah cannot chose whom he wants or from where he wants to make up his anointed ones. You cannot limit Jehovah’s hand.

            • The Raven

              In the final days. I have said that repeatedly. That is vastly different. It is end game.

            • Observing Quietly

              So you are still trying to limit Jehovah’s hand? Oh dear….

            • The Raven

              I have no idea what you’re saying. Jehovah has a people. Scripture tells us how to identify them. It also tells us what He expects of us and Christ gave us plenty to follow. He decides what’s what and hIs word is final. If that narrows it down too far for you, oh well.

            • Observing Quietly

              Oh well? Hmmm….you are the one repeatedly saying that the anointed can only come from Jehovah’s Witnesses. I offered proof showing that is not correct. You CANNOT LIMIT JEHOVAH’S HAND. You just said “he decides what’s what and his word is final”. Show me in the Bible anywhere where HE says Jehovah’s Witnesses are his people! You can infer it, but you will not find it.

            • The Raven

              It is also different for everyone else. We are all trying to get a grip on this and study and compare any similarities but it’s not a true indicator since the tribulation and judgement are unique occurrences.

            • Thinking

              Whom did Paul attach himself to..and whom did Paul therefore direct others to….he gave his whole life to show there was a distinction between those that follow the true God..and those that do not..

              Richard…yes he has a fight with earthly organizations….yet what do the scriptures show us what will happen to those who remain in those organizations

              Jeremiah 25:33
              At That time those slain by the Lord will be everywhere from one end of the earth to the other .They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried but will be like dung on the ground

              Mathew 7:14
              For the Gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are FEW

              Perhaps I should have become a christadelphin or seventh Day Adventist….( I seriously considered them by the way ) ….because in the end I’ll be saved if I repent at the last hour….sure would have made my whole life easier…and my son would still be alive….gee…I’ve picked up this torture stake and carried it for nothing…
              As all will be acceptable if they see the error of their ways…wow…

              My goodness me…all these years I thought Jehovah had the power to bring anyone out of BTG..into his house if he chose…

              Well all I know is Jehovah is a God of Justice…and he will not let one person die that he thinks worthy…

              You honestly think he cannot bring one person out of BTG…so what if they preach the second coming….even the demons knew that!

            • into the light

              Sis, I’m confused by your comment. I think you might have combined 2 comments into 1. 🤔
              Sorry my brain is abuzz with all this stuff as Raven and I have been at this for good 5 hours 😱

            • Thinking

              I did bro…because I thought one comment disappeared on me…I didn’t know it,posted…lol..sorry

            • Thinking

              Ooooh yes I see…what you mean…so sorry brother…yes I did combine two comments into one…that was not directed all to you….but it seems you discerned that….so sorry ..I won’t do it again..hahahha

            • Observing Quietly

              Sorry if I confused you. I was trying to make the point to Raven that you cannot say with any certainty that Jehovah will only choose anointed ones from within the WT Corporation as he asserts. Jehovah will choose whom he wants at any time and we have no say in it. Whether they are Jehovah’s Witnesses or not is not the issue, the real issue is….did Jehovah choose them? We will not know for certain till Christ is revealed. To argue that Jehovah will only choose from the WT Corporation is fooling yourself into thinking by staying with the WT you will be safe. Consider ancient Jerusalem, I often think of ones on here with their excuses as to why they stay as being the same as what the Christians back then would have used as reasons for not leaving the city when they had the chance. Jesus said the city was to be destroyed. Today we see the same, the WT is doomed. Why would anyone want to stay?

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Take back your words. You said Jesus said that Jerusalem will be destroyed and we see the same that WT is doomed. That is correct. But because Jerusalem was going to destroyed that doesn’t mean Jesus choose other people to write the Bible why only Jews because they bore Jehovah’s name hence they met the criteria. You said that you cannot say with certainity that Jehovah will not choose only from within WT . I don’t agree!! Jesus will anoint only from JW because though it corrupted still they meet the criteria of bearing Jehovah’s name are others have that. If as you say that Jehovah will choose from anyone whom he wants from anywhere, so will he choose from idol worshiping Roman Catholic Church? Then I will go and become a desciple of Kajourah temple and wait for Jesus to anoint me. How ridiculous!!! You are indirectly encouraging Baha’i faith that is all faith leads to God so also he anoints where ever your are. So why don’t you become a member of shivaism whose god is an unclean sex mad ejaculating god and wait for Jesus to anoint you, I will get a membership with 50% discount. How foolish it is to think that Jehovah will choose from anywhere who don’t know and hate his very name.

            • Observing Quietly

              Issac of C, I was not even speaking to you and you have attacked me outrageously. Fine example of a JW you are. I will not engage you in any conversation. Your insults do not deserve a reply.

            • into the light

              Hey Observing, my comment was directed to sis Thinking. She posted a reply on my comment that was meant for someone else. Disqus has been acting like a crackhead lately. 😁

              I agree with some of your points and I have discussed them with Raven yesterday. If you care to go thru our exchange you will see that Raven made some excellent points in defense of JW being god’s house at present. I still need to work things out as both sides of the argument make sense in their own way.
              I have come to the understanding that JW are being used as a dragnet, but am not convinced that anointed are chosen solely from JW. In any case, I need more scriptural proof for this as I don’t want to make any claims that are not founded on scripture. These are only my ponderations.
              So far, I am not aware of anyone else that fits the scripture in a way JW do. As sis Thinking pointed out, after I stated Paul’s example, where did Paul go once he was anointed? He went to the Christ’s disciples. He became a part of their congregations, and went on to establish many. We can’t know at present where all the anointed come from, but we know when the time comes for revealing they will all be a part of Jehovah’s temple and their message will be unified. Not like a sorry mess it is presently. I have come across many who claim they are anointed on the internet and their voice is not unified. But I hope we can discern, based on our bible trained powers of reasoning, what the truth is. If we learned the truth from JW, we need to at least stay close by and pay attention to them, even if we don’t agree with the direction they are taking.

            • Observing Quietly

              Into the light, I thank you for your very reasonable comments. It can be so very confusing and distressful trying to figure out how scripture fits with what the world is doing today, including the sudden new claims of anointing by so many. But consider this thought, if as was previously stated, the anointed only come from JW then why are you and I both here on Robert Kings website? Robert King claims to be of the anointed and has made that claim for a long long time. Yet, he has been “removed” from JW and, according to them, is no longer a JW. Yet, when reading his words here, so much of what he has to say makes sense and compliments the Bible’s narrative. I was thinking about Jerusalem and the destruction that came upon that nation after Jesus warning to flee and thought about those that followed that directive from Jesus. Many must have left immediately after the first withdrawal of the Roman army. That army camped for the next 3 years approximately 50 miles from the city. When it retreated, many of the people of Jerusalem chased after them and inflicted damages. The Jews who believed Jesus warning left as soon as they could because they could see the Roman’s encampments and knew it was just a matter of time till Jesus words would be completed upon that city. So what about them? Where did they go? The Bible tells us they fled to the mountainous regions. What did they do there? Did they stop loving Jehovah their God? Did they take up with pagan religions? Did they abandon the direction Jesus had given them? No, they did not. Just because they left the city, doesn’t mean they “left Jehovah” . This is what we are accused of all the time by those who stay inside the city. JW today constantly say if we have left the Org, we have left Jehovah. It’s just not true. So yes, I agree, stay close by, observe, observe, observe. Should we be blessed with life in the New Earth, we will be able to give personal eyewitness accounts of how Jesus came, cleansed the earth and restored Jehovah’s wonderful name.

            • into the light

              Hi sis? OQ,
              I think i’ve already said before that (IMO) we can’t really know where the annointed are coming from at present.
              It seems that our thinking about these matters is pretty aligned. I have also mentioned the Jewish flight from the city upon seeing Roman forces. Jesus warned his disciples that that was the sign for them to run away. Mt. 24:15,16

              They mostly went to Pella where they met with other Christians. We can’t know what they went on to do after that. But we know that they escaped the tribulation of that time and were saved because they had believed Jesus and heeded his warning. Here is an interesting read about it for the Insight book.
              But I see your argument about not leaving Jehovah by leaving the org.
              They are using that in order to instill fear into JW. If we know Jesus and how he treated his flock we can also understand that Jehovah is like that, too. Psalm 34:8 So when we compare Jesus’ attitude and theirs we know what side to take. But the time is not yet, so we need to listen to what they say. But not do what they do. Mt. 23:3

              Thinking about how it will be when humanity is brought back to Jehovah is something I thought about often. Sometimes it brings tears to my eyes.

              Agape, ITL

            • Observing Quietly

              Thank you ITL, you are a beautiful person and I appreciate the struggle you have. Just know that if you leave that city (JW.Org) we shall be here in the modern day Pella waiting for you. Don’t wait too long as we don’t want you trapped and suffering because of her sins. OQ

            • into the light

              My struggle is actually whether I should get baptized. I mean I want to but can’t accept that I need to “qualify” for it according to WT standards.
              So I’m not really in the city to begin with. I go in occasionally.

            • Observing Quietly

              ITL, before you take that step, I suggest you research the two questions they now ask before baptism. Compare the questions they use today with the questions they used back in the 1970s. There is a huge difference. I was baptized in 1971. Accordingly, I never really was a part of the Organization as the question they use today requires you to agree to belong to the Organization as a condition of baptism. I won’t say any more, but just hope you research them before you make your decision. Either way, sure am glad you are here to chat with.

            • The Raven

              Here’s my take on this. The makeup of the wt org and it’s people is very much like that of the Jews around Christ’s time. I’d say even before that. The leadership has behaved like Pharisees and their “priests” have been loco. Their prophets are blind and drunk and their house is a mess. The slaves are either asleep, evil or ignorant. But..it’s still his temple. Right? Christ cleaned it out before, but of course its been re infested and now He comes to destroy the organization and restore the temple through Himself and His brothers. For good, this time. Those are the comparisons I can make. The rest have to be massaged to fit. Maybe With a sledge. lol! But, there is much room for hope in that time slot between downfall and judgement. That’s where I have been loitering at present.

            • Sam Knight
            • Observing Quietly

              Enjoying this discussion. Consider that when Paul was confronted by Jesus, he not only wasn’t a believer, he wasn’t baptized either. He would have been just another Jew and not a nice one at that!

            • into the light

              Good observation! Thanks for pointing that out!

            • Richard Long

              Meaning he was Christ’s own *before* even he (Saul) knew it. Would make for some interesting dogma squashing if we knew exactly at what point in time Jesus chose him. Before Stephen’s martyrdom or after?

            • Observing Quietly

              Makes you wonder if, even though we tend to discuss in detail the things Paul did before his conversion, and just assume he was in agreement with all that he was doing, whether it is possible, he did those things (taking Christians from their homes and sending them to their deaths) because he felt that is what was required of him. He clearly refused to participate in the stoning of Stephen (he did not throw any stones to kill him) but stood aside watching and doing nothing to stop it thereby looking like he agreed. Yet if he had a conscience dissonance going on, that no one but Jesus was able to discern, where he did not like what he was doing and felt bad about it, it would go a long way in understanding why Jesus chose him.

            • Richard Long

              Either that, or Jesus just really needed a real ball-buster to get the job done like when he hired Nathan Knorr to shape up his printing empire?😎

            • Richard Long

              But you are making very valid points IMO.

            • Richard Long

              By the time Messiah arrived on the scene the temple was so polluted it might have been unrecognizable to him. Everything from temple prostitution to Emperor sponsored daily sacrifice was going on.

            • into the light

              Jesus still considered it his Father’s house despite that. Luke 2:49; John 2:16

              But you know that already.

            • Richard Long

              And condemned it to desolation. But you know that already. :p Or, did he call it someone else’s house?

              Matt. 23:38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.*+ 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s* name!’”+

            • into the light

              Yeah, not sure about if he meant the actual temple when he said that. He said Jerusalem in vs 37. The immediate context in surrounding verses implies that Jerusalem was their house.

            • Richard Long

              And in Christian, most especially JW theology, Jerusalem is synonymous with the temple, be it the physical or spiritual. No?

            • into the light

              Is this about theology, though? My take is that Jesus basically told them that they were done, unless they repent and believe in him.

            • Richard Long

              Almost. He told them that they were done period. [Edit: (as he was quoting prophesy at that instance)] He also declared to them that he himself was the temple.

              John 2:19 Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”+

            • into the light

              That’s why I said in my previous comment “never mind the temple…” 😅

            • into the light

              But nevermind the temple, here is the Messiah. 😅
              He established a spiritual temple which is a part of the new covenant. The old temple lost its relevance once Jesus was sacrificed.

            • into the light

              JW are the dragnet. Think about that.

            • The Raven

              I have. The preaching now and the outpouring of spirit. This is why I first presented my thoughts on exodus and the Samaritan etc. Think about that again. 😊phones about to croak. Be back in a few. Getting on laptop. Really good discussion!

            • Observing Quietly

              From Robert’s latest article. If JW are the dragnet, they are guilty of idolatry on a huge scale as Habakkuk says, they make sacrifices to their fishing nets and dragnets. How is it that JW take up the Nations if they are the dragnet? I think this is WT interpretation and it’s wrong. Robert writes this below:

              https://e-watchman.com/vision-yet-appointed-time/

              “And most assuredly, the collapse of the Wall Street system will take down the
              whole shebang. The quadrillions of derivatives will simply crush
              everything. The only way for the European imperialists to stay on top is
              a controlled demolition —to blow up the system and replace it with
              something they control. Inevitably, the carnage will be immense. But in
              that way the nations will be caught up in the fisherman’s net like
              hapless fishes, which is why Habakkuk asked: “Why do you make man like the fish of the sea, like creeping things that have no ruler? All of these hauls up with a fishhook. He catches them in his dragnet, and he gathers them in his fishing net. That is why he rejoices greatly. That is why he offers sacrifices to his dragnet and makes sacrifices to his fishing net; for by them his portion is rich, and his food is choice. Will he then keep emptying out his dragnet? Will he go on slaughtering nations without compassion?”

            • into the light

              OQ, please refer to Mt. 13:47-50
              That’s what I meant by dragnet. I should have pointed out that it was Jesus’ parable in my original post.

            • into the light

              Also, i would like to point out that in these prophecies I don’t see parallels that are literally paralles and have to have an equal situation to the one that happened before. It’s more like this 😅
              Y https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3a7899af1ee3c32f225afea22704bcea44cb7fcc4fa94bd9e502cb47f2f1de93.jpg

              You see the same elements within the same elements and they are together but not together yet they are part of the whole in that they are part of the same picture. If it was just good old parallels it would be easy to figure it out…

            • The Raven

              Specifically about Aaron.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              How Will Zechariah 8:23 Be Fulfilled?
              Excerpt:
              The theme scripture for the study article is based up Zechariah 8:23, which states: “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: ‘We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.’”
              The Watchtower teaches that the prophecy finds its fulfillment in the modern movement of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The “ten men out of all the languages of the nations” represents the vast group of non-anointed persons who have attached themselves to the Watchtower. And the “Jew” is the collective body of anointed persons, since Paul indicated that the real Jew is actually persons who belong to Christ.

              Like so much of the Watchtower’s interpretation of prophesy, it actually is very insightful, at least as regards the symbolism. The number 10 being symbolic of earthly completeness represents all persons who will ultimately make up the great crowd. And, obviously the “Jew” represents Christ, or rather, the body of Christ on earth during that time. But, like everything else the timing of matters is skewed to 1914.
              Now, as regards the verse under consideration, all things taken into consideration, the nations will be drawn to the “Jew” after God destroys the present organization. In the aftermath those who have been approved as God’s people and chosen to be with Christ will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom. Their shining is what Paul referred to as the “revealing of the sons of God.” Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/zechariah-823/

              Read a lot more>Search results for: that takes hold of the skirt of the Jew.
              https://e-watchman.com/?s=+that+takes+hold+of+the+skirt+of+the+Jew

            • Thinking

              Thanks Bk I’ll have a read of it

            • Richard Long

              Hi Thinking. It might be helpful to consider Armageddon is specifically Jehovah’s war against the kings of the earth, not necessarily against all his erring children. While we may expect all willingly receiving the mark to be anihilated at that time, I think it is also reasonable to expect a great many “surprised” survivors. Since we know the sorting is done by Jesus at some point after the parousia begins, I am content to not start without him now.

            • Song of Hannah

              This is how I see it too, Richard. Jehovah’s perfect justice requires he treat all humans equally when it comes to their opportunity for everlasting life. That is why it makes no sense for us to believe folks will have a better chance of survival if they die before Armageddon. If that were so, Jehovah’s justice would not be even-handedly applied. So it stands to reason, that just as resurrected mankind will see incontrovertible proof of God’s rulership, those at the end will have incontrovertible proof as well. If they see this obvious evidence displayed by Holy Spirit and still deny, then they have sinned against that Spirit, and will be rightly condemned to eternal death. Jesus clearly stated so:

              “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.” – Matt 12:31-32

            • into the light

              It makes sense that those that died paid the sin’s wage, which is death. But how does that make sure they wouldn’t rebel against god if given chance? Maybe that’s why satan will be released after a while before going to his final destruction.

            • Song of Hannah

              Yes that’s how I see it happening too.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Song of Hannah, wow you have just answered so perfectly one of those questions I have in the back of my mind regarding people dying prior to Armageddon having an easier time than those living through the unrepeatable times that lay just ahead.

              I will quote you :

              “That is why it makes no sense for us to believe folks will have a better chance of survival if they die before Armageddon. If that were so, Jehovah’s justice would not be even-handedly applied. So it stands to reason, that just as resurrected mankind will see incontrovertible proof of God’s rulership, those at the end will have incontrovertible proof as well.”

              This is something I have thought about and not commented on simply because I did not want to reveal any weaknesses about my creator, which of course is impossible.

              So thank you again for making me think again. 🙂

            • into the light

              Thanks for this! It really builds up on Craig’s “3 players” post.

              edit:
              link to the the post http://disq.us/p/1n4r9uu

            • Richard Long

              Can’y quite go that far with you as I’m a dissenter on the “Gods house is limited to Jehovah’s Witnesses” platform. But..You’re welcome?

            • into the light

              I think I am coming around to the understanding that the anointed ones will be found all over the place. In the same way the gentiles have been anointed after Christ’s death. But at present we are at the stage which could be compared to the events before that. When only Jews were being anointed. I really can’t see anything in “Christendom” that can point to them being related to Christ. They have perverted the whole nature of god, accepting the pagan trinity.

            • Observing Quietly

              I agree with you Richard Long, who here has the authority to limit Jehovah’s hand? Not one of us. Jehovah will choose whom he wants, when he wants and that’s the end of it. To say anything else means we know more than Jehovah does.

            • into the light

              I have been discussing about this with Raven. I can’t completely agree with neither him or Richard. I do think that preaching work needs to be organized as otherwise it would result in chaos. I think that dragnet parable would apply more to JW.

            • Observing Quietly

              Yes, the preaching does need to be organized, and Jehovah has used them to a limited extent. But they are more guilty than any of dragging his name in the dirt and glorifying themselves and He makes it clear that He intends to destroy them. They are not a “special people”. If they were, they would not be destroyed. Individuals make up that “special people” and we cannot say for a certainty who they are, only what Revelations says, they come from all nations, all languages and tongues. However when the dust settles and clears, then who are “God’s People” will become clear. Judging others at this time only results in angst.

            • into the light

              Well put! But that discounts others from being considered though, doesn’t it?

            • Observing Quietly

              Why should it discount others from being considered? Jehovah chooses whom he wishes, it is only people, who try to tell him which group he can pick from. Paul was a persecutor and murderer of Christ’s followers, yet he was chosen. Cornelius wasn’t a Jew and not baptized as a follower, yet he received the Holy Spirit, hence was chosen. We have no business telling anyone that Jehovah will only choose those of a certain group. Especially when the group we are advocating has been soundly foretold to be headed for Jehovah’s wrath and destruction. The people for Jehovah’s name is simply the 144,000 and not the rest of us. He can chose whom he wants to be a part of that 144,000. He chooses them as his witnesses in the court case in heaven at which they testify in his behalf and Satan and his demon-angels are found guilty and thrown to the earth prior to being imprisoned in the abyss. His hand is not short and he will choose perfectly. Not according to our personal ideas.

            • sally

              Jesus and the Prophet Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke extensively about the scattered sheep.
              Jeremiah 23:1
              Jeremiah 50:17
              Ezekiel 34:12
              Mark 14:27
              Exekiel 34:6
              To name but a few scriptures.
              How can the sheep be scattered if they didn’t belong anywhere in the first place?
              As has already been pointed out, Jehovah is God Almighty, he is more than capable of bringing righteous ones to his house. Despite everything and everything. As the Israilites werre his people despite everything and they got destroyed but a remnant came out of them and carried on. This belief is not according to a personal idea its according to the bible.
              Being part of Jehovah’s corrupted house was and is never going to be easy. Especially when you know its corruption.
              Matthew 16:24 “if anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and come after me”

            • into the light

              Of course. Jehovah knows what he needs to do and he will chose whom he wants. But where is is house presently? If the JW are organized in doing the task that Christ commissioned his followers to do and I don’t see anyone else making the effort on such a massive scale, it’s reasonable to conclude that they are important players in all this. Who else is doing this that could be considered?
              But it’s not ours to determine where god picks from, I agree. We need to separate the fact that anointed are different from earthly ones. Anointed are Christ’s possession, and he personally chooses them. But non-anointed are not chosen at this time, but they are willingly answering Jesus’ call to go and make disciples, and are hoping to be chosen as wheat when the time of separation comes.

            • Richard Long

              Hi ITL. Just exploring thought processes. Please indulge me and forgive if I overstep.

              Your questions speak to the effect that you accept the “JW’s are the one true faith in an advanced state of apostasy” position Robert has so capably and consistently articulated. I accept Robert’s word when he says he is a watchman. A watchman is not a prophet. A watchman mans a position overlooking a finite field of view and while there he sees what he sees and he says what he sees. Therefore I do not dispute what the watchman reports. I do however, consider it my responsibility to hear from as many as possible of the other watchmen posted at the other positions overlooking other finite fields of view. In this way I can endeavor to have a more complete overview of the strength of my position and the vulnerabilities of my defenses.

              I can only relate my personal experience, as one having fallen through the false bottom of one “salvation in a box” to land here and be very graciously welcomed and nurtured by Robert and others, that the temptation is great to allow this “house” to serve as “another, better salvation in a box”. I can say I believe there there is no false bottom here, but do say we can certainly choose to make the box feel “just right” when it may in fact be a lot less roomy than the wide open spaces Father and lord may intend for us to inhabit.

              And while my journey is also just beginning, I can say with conviction there are other places available to all that cite the exact same authority as our beloved brother Robert, namely the token of potential royal priesthood, and have divergent viewpoints. Many are also from and even currently existing in the JW tradition. Some of these are Beroean Pickets and Perimeno.

              So instead of providing “my” answer for your very valid questions, I implore you to hear from any and all “watchmen” your conscience and HS may direct you to.

              If your goal is to learn the mind of Robert on any matter you will likely find it in the archives or the book, available to read here for free. Until you become adept at negotiating the archives, BklynKevin, Dr. Moreau, and The Raven have shown skill and willingness to act as archivists in assisting ones to this end.

              Blessings on you in your search, RL

            • into the light

              Hi Richard, as far as I am aware JW are a religious brotherhood who express their faith in Jehovah and his son Jesus. One among many who do the same (somewhat). Having said that, I do agree, as you might have read in my reply to OQ, that at present JW have taken up the responsibility to preach the good news as commissioned by Christ. I am trying to be balanced here, and I can admit to myself that the effort and resources that they invested in proclaiming it in the past century far surpass everyone else who claims to do the same. Just the fact that they translated the bible in so many languages is enough in my opinion, but they’ve done much more than that. I doubt that Jesus would overlook that fact. On the other hand I remember you mentioning something to the effect of “all those professing faith that Christ died and rose up” merit being considered as god’s house. I can’t agree with that because of the simple fact that they pray to the saints and believe that they act on our behalf in front of Christ. And what’s more, they represent those saints with statues to which they pray. And then there is the infamous trinity and lot of other things which tells me that the only thing christian about them is actually the name. Some people mention the charities and charitable work they are doing. To me that is the same like when Jesus fed 5000 people at Tiberias and then they followed him because of it. John 6:26

              Notice what happens 2 verses later: Jesus said that they must exercise faith in the one whom father sent. What does it mean to exercise faith? Merely repeat that you believe? Here is what Jesus said: Matthew 28:18-20

              Also read: James 2:14-26

              Having said that, I don’t agree with the direction they have been taking under the leadership of GB. This dragnet that they are supposed to be is now gilded and being revered by JW without them realizing. People are being duped by the impostors who pose as shepherds. Acts 20:29, 30 I think we’ve seen this situation starting with Levites, thru Pharisees and “Christian” priests, down to our day. But the difference right now is that we are, as Raven says, close to the endgame.

              IMO 2 witnesses will establish the true congregation once this one falls down to MOL completely. And that one will be refined to the point of being acceptable to pass thru Armageddon. Please correct me if this thinking is wrong.

              I’ve also been wondering who the 7 congregations from Revelation are. I remember that C.T. Russel considered himself to be “Laodicean Messenger”.

              I understand that there is much that we don’t know at present. I am aware of the fact that bro King is not a prophet. Some seem to see it that way and that’s why I had the issue with some brothers here regarding his giving credibility to worldly political sources here on this website. Nevertheless, I do appreciate the effort he is putting into bringing to attention the bad things WT does. And also reminding us of how Jehovah dealt with similar situations in the past. I think he has a great deal of insight into the scripture, which is helpful for us to understand. I don’t put my faith in men and am trying to be careful and examine their sayings and their conduct.

              I’ve cheked Perimeno and ocassionaly go to see what he says, but he seems not to be really active. And his website is a mess in regards to usability. As for Beroeans, I do follow their weekly WT analysis on occasion as it expands on my own study of it. I have to say that they are very balanced and appeal to my thinking. I’ve even quoted some of their comments here.
              We here seem to be a bit more liberal. That is also appealing to me as the subjects regularly expand outside of the scope of the article being discussed.

              Having said all this, I want to thank you for your advice and consideration. I can be somewhat incoherent or sometimes blunt in my comments, but I am open and would appreciate any constructive critique.

              Sending Christian love, ITL

            • Richard Long

              Agree completely in spirit. If I didn’t believe JW religion was used by God, I’d have to start burning down KH’s, and for the same reason, I don’t burn down the meeting places of other religious orders. All wanting to follow Christ seem to be and always have been similarly situated. The question was never “to *where* should we go”, but ‘”to *whom* would we go”, because there is no *where*. Christ had the sayings of life.

              That being said, and considering salvation is a uniquely individual and personal pursuit, I find it remarkable the way Father has used his enemy’s own apparatus to make the gospel known throughout the earth and can see no way to elevate one order over the other.

              A close advisor counsels me to not be offended by the truth, whatever the source. I myself balk at the source plenty, but also, acknowledging that is my personal hangup, want to not miss out on any beneficial truth. Having discovered myself to be an idolater within the JW religion, I am also extremely sensitive to idolatry within other religious orders. Can’t find a single one without any.

              That merely explains that the extrabiblical sources I use to inform my thinking are not limited to the very (lMO) vital work Robert has done and continues to do, and my goal is not to convince anyone to believe any certain way, but to have us all understand that false parousia delusion existed prior to Russell, was inherited by Russell, and infected every piece of “light” brought forth by Russell.

              As I see it, the only “truth” we JW’s have, from then to now, are intelligent, interested Creator/Father, Christ resurrected, and baptism. Certainly not unique to us OR our time. Parousia- got it wrong and everything rooted in it lie by default, which encompasses everything from anointing to Zeitgeist. The JW theology does not exist without the false parousia delusion. Same is to be said for orders following trinity dogma. Remove that *delusion* and the theology collapses. Same for any other “brand” of delusion. In this way, I see all nominal Christianity to be in the same condition. Satan applied the “whatever lie works” strategy. Don’t say neutrality. That’s not unique to us or our time either.

              This leaves one having no certain answers save what is written in scripture in whatever capacity one may be granted by Father to understand what one reads while navigating whatever translation of whatever surviving COPY of scripture one can lay ones hands on.

              History shows that but for Christendom, likely no copy of original scripture would survive today, even as it shows more would likely be available had not Christendom destroyed it. The WT has always maintained that Christendom was used by Jehovah to preserve and shepherd his word into the modern era. Their claim to be the new, approved custodian of God’s word can only be supported by what? You guessed it. The false parousia delusion which enables justification for the usurpation of ecclesiastical and ecumenical authority no “body” will given until the ACTUAL parousia.

              Therefore, IMO, nominal Christianity and Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses is a distinction without difference. We’re all idolaters, we’re all Christendom. We’re all due to be inspected and disciplined or destroyed.

              This does not satisfy my need to understand prophecy regarding the end of the system and the entities the Christ will use to see his Father’s will done, but it should explain my reticence to blindly accept as truth anything coming from the mouth of the WT, starting with Russell, the way I used to.

              Agape, RL

            • into the light

              The question was never “to *where* should we go”, but ‘”to *whom* would we go”, because there is no *where*. Christ had the sayings of life.

              This makes so much sense. I have asked this question to my study teacher when I started thinking about the 7 times, the correct year of Jerusalem destruction and how it all interacts with 1914. I was aware of many bad things about JW by then and also the incorrect teachings, but still I knew about the truth. I was still under the impression at the time that whom = where. I’m glad you reminded me of it.

              […] false parousia delusion existed prior to Russell, was inherited by Russell, and infected every piece of “light” brought forth by Russell.

              Again, one of the things I try to argue during my study. It is a known fact that Russell was influenced by Nelson Barbour et al. and adopted his ideas which he incorporated with is own regarding parousia.
              Awake! March 2008 issue asks: ‘Does my form of worship closely adhere to the teachings of God’s Word, the Bible? Or are aspects of it rooted in a form of worship carried on by those who serve false gods?’

              But there are always excuses.

              Russell obviously had the holy spirit leading him to uncover the truth, but unfortunately he succumbed to satan’s schemes.

              I won’t get into JW vs Christendom delusion but I will say that if the 1914 and the fake presence theory falls down, JW still have the basic truths about ransom and relationship of Christ to Father, among other things.

              But this now brings me to actually express my annoyance by JW having Christ on “backburner” as someone mentioned once here. And BP also noticed that and started counting references to Jehovah vs Christ on their site. I also notice that trend here but not to the extent WT does it.

              So in the end I agree that all will be inspected and disciplined. It’s up to us to accept the discipline and improve our conduct. We need to prove ourselves to be holy in relation to the world.

              I like Agape! I am so taking that!😁
              ITL

            • Richard Long

              Ransom everyone has, I got that as a 7 yr old Sunday school student. Father/Son relationship, trinity IS the delusion for some, but those orders often excell in the worship approved by Jehovah, securing justice for widows and orphans, which JW’s are absolutely due a good beating for neglecting. So I contend JW’s have no “truth” that wasn’t available to 2nd, 3rd, thru 19th century Christians, aka “Christendom”

              I get a kick out of the J vs J count too.

              Re: Russell and Barbour, it gets worse. Wikipedia “Millerites”

              Re “agape”, as always, what is mine is borrowed and therefore yours to take.

              RL

            • into the light

              Even worse than Millerites, look up Rosicrucians 😵

            • Observing Quietly

              Well said Richard…you hit the nail on the head multiple times with this one! Thank you!

            • Richard Long

              Regarding LaRouche, my concerns were addressed by Robert to the effect that Robert trusts LaRouche to be an accurate barometer of conditions in the world’s political sphere. It cannot be said he is not a player with his finger bon the pulse.

              Given Mr. LaRouche’s endeavor is to effect change that purposes to prevent system collapse, a natural separation between he and Robert occurs. Others are invited to provide whatever adjustments this assessment might require.

            • Daisy

              ITL…you say “if jws are doing the task that Christ commissioned his followers to do and I don’t see anyone else making the effort on such a massive scale, it’s reasonable to conclude that they are important players in all this. Who else is doing this that could be considered”

              I did agree with those sentiments until I realised that when the WT *claims* they are the only group that preach, what is really meant is that JWs are the only people that preach the WT interpretation of God’s Kingdom, principally from ” house to house” and Mark 13:10 simply says “Also in all the nations the good news has to be preached first” it doesn’t dictate how this is to be done and though the WT makes constant references to the “house to house” work (it generates money, lots of money) and is an acceptable way to preach , it isn’t even prescribed *as* the way to preach and is *not* the way the early Christians preached.

              Other religious groups grow because members preach casually and naturally to friends, at work, and anywhere else they can be found. I placed a Bible at the cashier’s desk in my local supermarket one quiet day, much more effective than knocking on the doors of empty houses. Doubt if Jesus would have bothered trudging door to door when he knew no one was going to be at home. That’s why he spent most of his time preaching in the streets, the synagogues and the markets, where most people gather.

              So who else could be considered you ask…well… off the top of my head i’d submit, say the 28 million Adventists who actively preach and the Mormons and missionaries from all over who rightly preach the Good News of the Kingdom? That message is *about* Jesus and his heavenly kingdom. Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the *holy spirit arrives upon YOU* and YOU will be *witnesses if me* both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth” Therefore…
              Christians were to be witnesses of Jesus….something Jehovah’s witnesses are not renowned for…
              Good to have you here ITL…daisy 🙂

            • into the light

              Hi sister Daisy, I agree with you in that house to house preaching is ineffective way to preach good news and have been questioning it during my study. Not only that but also the cart witnessing which so far as I’ve seen is being placed in inconvenient locations where they stand in people’s way , like intersections and such, or inaccessible places where there is not a lot of foot traffic.

              BUT 😀 I was told that as per new “directions” they will take a more casual approach and focus on more informal witnessing. Which I also find to be a more effective way to engage people, instead of bothering them. I’m just not sure how that’s gonna play into their interpretation of prophecy where they see themselves as locusts who torment the nations 😆.

              Having said that, I don’t agree with Adventists or Mormons being noteworthy for the fact that they preach a different Jesus, the one that’s part of trinity, revere people and have their prophets whom they idolize and even, in the case of Mormons, the book which they consider almost more important than bible. Mormons are especially controversial for their polygamy practices. And I’m pretty sure that we will hear about their dirty laundry on sexual abuse in the same way like that of JW is coming out presently. Mormons also go to war. Adventists’ are also lax in their views about military service. Other groups I’m not even sure about as they are not prominent and wouldn’t consider them important as we know that true Christians need to be known and hated by the world. I hope this helps. If you have anything to add please do.

              Sending Christian love, ITL 😊

            • Bklyn Kevin

              scriptures for thought.

              No other good news (Galatians 1:6-9

              I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble+ and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.Galatians 1:6-9 Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/galatians/1/#v48001006-v48001009

              For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him.
              Read more> Paul and the superfine apostles (1-15)
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-corinthians/11/#v47011001-v47011015

            • Richard Long

              Kevin, you just convicted every JW that ever lived since at least Rutherford. We absolutely, unconditionally in NO WAY WHATSOEVER preach the same Jesus Paul preached.

            • Richard Long

              “noteworthy for the fact that they preach a different Jesus, the one that’s part of trinity”

              Considering the great effort Jehovah Himself appears to have made to place Jesus in the forefront of our hearts and minds while all but eliminating his own interactions with His human children, this seems a forgivable error.

              Matt 12: “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.+ 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him;+ but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things* nor in that to come.+

              Especially so if it turns out that the “operation of error” has more than one “flavor”.

            • into the light

              This seems reasonable enough. I need to give it more thought.

            • into the light

              Satan tempted Jesus when he was a man to misuse his power. What if this is another temptation in order for Jesus to overstep his authority? You know, there are billions of people praying to him. And in case of Catholics, praying to his fleshly mother who they believe is pleading for them in front of Jesus. I’m not buying those excuses. Jesus was clear that glory belongs to father.

            • Richard Long

              Father is now tempting Jesus? Or Satan inspired scripture????????

              Idolatry is idolatry, but Christ is no longer a man. He is now not only of the same substance as Father, but in the same condition of having life within himself, immortality independent of Father. Father has done this! Why? So JW’s can ignore him and relegate him to the dust bin of our theology?

              So much more to say, but time for wage slave duty.

              Agape, brother! RL

            • into the light

              Not sure what you mean by your first sentence. But another time, I guess.
              Agape back at ya! 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Christ cannot be tempted at all, as he is now incorruptible. As Satan, having blown his chance, is now a non-factor in the perfection of Jesus, the only entity left to tempt Jesus is his Father, who doesn’t play that game. Satan did not inspire scripture that states Christ is worthy of worship ( obeisance as corrupted by Franz, sorry no time for lookup or link), nor those by Paul telling us exactly how Father wants his Son (who is also our father, BTW) to be thought of. The son HAS, not WILL, inherited all that is Father’s regarding the earth. We are simply waiting for him to evict our current slum lord, which requires due process.

              Again, sorry to state it as if I have authority, which I know I don’t. Consider these ideas rather than fact.

            • into the light

              Thanks for clarification. I understand they are ideas, same as mine. I mentioned it as a possibility. And I realize that I should’ve better kept my mouth shut.
              Regarding Christ, we know Father gave him all authority in heaven and on earth. That’s more than enough for me. Father did glorify him and if you want to say we need to worship him I can understand that. In English worship can mean different things. Did astrologers when they heard about Jesus’ birth go to look for him so they could worship him?
              But praying to Jesus is a different thing and nowhere in the scripture is that recommended as far as I am aware. If you know of scriptures that prove me wrong, please do share.

            • Richard Long

              Stephen?

            • Richard Long

              Acts 7:59 As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah,* do not charge this sin against them.”+ And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.

            • into the light

              Just read the whole chapter. Not convinced that was praying. He gave up his spirit back to the lord as he has all authority now. And I had made an argument before how the apostles and disciples at the time had already considered Jesus a king.
              Tell me, since you try to defend it, do you pray to Jesus?

            • Richard Long

              I do not. And I am exploring not defending.

              But…

              What I am doing is praying to Father, only possible *through* Jesus, and wondering if my Lord is maybe a little aggravated to be sitting around tied to manning the communications apparatus while I talk past him.

              I’m just thinking out loud.

            • Sam Knight

              Been to many a funeral where the pastor mistakenly prays to Jesus in the name of Jesus. So sad. Makes my learned guts churn. There’ll be no surrender on that “one”

            • Richard Long

              Had the same experience, Sam, and you are absolutely right.

              The quandary becomes how to reconcile the facts that approach to Father is only possible through Jesus, salvation has been made possible by means of Jesus, Christians are owned by Jesus, all humans will live or die on the basis of Jesus’ recognition of their relationship to him, BUT, we are supposed to NEVER, NEVER, talk to Jesus, just expect Jesus to be the silent third party on our three-way call to heaven?!?!

              Is this an article of faith or a religious order separating Christian’s from their owner?

            • into the light

              Jesus is Jehovah’s acting agent just as spirit is his “dynamic energy”. Everything is made thru him and for him. He does everything in Jehovah’s behalf. I’m fancying a thought that we might address him, but since he and father are one (of one mind) then what is the point? He repeatedly said that he does nothing out of his own will but everything that father tells him. We need to also remember that Jesus also has free will, and he chose to do this.

            • Sam Knight

              Bah.. Richard! You’re reminding me of dogmatic born again Christian. Jesus is the mediator to approach the most high Jehovah. He is the firstborn angel! And the beginning of the creation by God. Do you deny this simple statement? Be honest please. No mental gymnastics.

            • Richard Long

              Absolutely, without equivocation.

            • into the light

              Is that an answer to the question or agreement that Jesus is mediator? So much for “without equivocation”.

            • Richard Long

              It is agreement that Jesus is mediator for both the New Covenant and all mankind.

            • Richard Long

              Absolutely, without equivocation AGREE with that simple statement and categorically DO NOT DENY that simple statement.

              Sorry, Sam, my attention was divided when I answered the first time and answered as if the question read “Do you agree with”

            • into the light

              That’s what I meant by my previous comment when I said maybe Satan is tempting him. Which I think you’re doing now to me lol 😂.
              When you think about it, why would he be? Father gave him everything.

            • Sam Knight

              I liked that line of thought. But Michael passed it with flying colours.

            • into the light

              Isn’t this whole farce that’s been playing out since Eden a temptation of Jehovah? Satan basically tempted Jehovah and tried to make him break his holy Sabbath, or day of rest, and break his own law. I think we are underestimating his power. He’d like us to think that he is impotent, but facts prove otherwise…

            • Richard Long

              Including maybe the responsibility to hear prayer?

              And if this conversation ever comes close to stumbling you, please end it. I am not teaching, but exploring, maybe too aggressively?

            • into the light

              I am exploring too, but maybe we just need to be more careful, as this is exactly how Satan seeds doubts. I think we need to spend more time in prayer as I am sure all the questions we have will be answered. Remember that nothing was imposed on Jesus. He chose this. Maybe that could serve as an anchor to our thinking?

            • Sam Knight

              Anchor = commie

            • into the light

              Care to explain? Does it have to do with commie symbols?

            • Sam Knight

              Yeah. The anchor is commie. No care for the word of God. No care for it’s messengers either. Despisers of democracy and freedom of thought. Butchers. Mass Murderers and sons of the father of the lie. Like I said before. There are those that’d twist the word of God for political ends. And I have no doubt that such ones are active amongst God’s people. Funny thing that the truth only can exist if not thrive in democratic states.

            • into the light

              I know what commie is. But are you suggesting that what I said was commie? Or is it just that you pointed out the anchor as a commie symbol? You lost me brother. I used the word anchor as a metaphor. So we don’t float away too far in speculation… Kind of like how anchor prevents the boat to be carried away by waves.

            • Sam Knight

              Sorry brother. I’m not comfortable with some of the comments. It is my gut instinct that there is political infiltration amongst the jw faith and even here. Christian theology is manipulatulated by the powers that rule us and I wish to be free of it. Sorry if I accused you wrongly.

            • into the light

              No worries brother. I wasn’t comfortable with the direction the discussion was taking either, that’s why I said that we should be careful. Christ gave himself willingly. I can’t accept that Christ could be aggravated and feel like we are bypassing him. He knew exactly what Jehovah’s plan is and he is doing his best to bring that plan about. Satan on the other hand wanted more than he was given and we know how that ended up. We are all imperfect and are susceptible to devil’s tricks, so please continue reading god’s word and pray for holy spirit to help you discern those who twist the true teachings. Peace bro 🙏

            • Bklyn Kevin

              And the Bible most certainly agrees with what you said when you explained
              ” He knew exactly what Jehovah’s plan is and he is doing his best to bring that plan about.

              Yes Christ gave himself willingly.
              John 4:34 Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me+ and to finish his work.

            • into the light
            • Sam Knight

              Great conversation guys. Another “fallen asleep in death” quite a common occurance in the bible. Job 14:13. Ecc9:5. Don’t mind me.. carry on..

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Stumper Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses #38

              QUESTION: If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to “receive my spirit”? How could Jesus receive Stephen’s spirit if a man’s spirit ceases to exist when the body dies?.

              If you read the surrounding context it plainly says that Stephen fell asleep in death as a result of the Jews stoning him. As everyone knows, while we are asleep we are not conscious.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/lord-jesus-receive-spirit/

            • Richard Long

              Kevin, thank you for your contribution. Please keep up. We already know the soul ceases to exist at death and is resurrected (edit: or not). Can you help ITL prove Stephen did not pray to Jesus?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Food for thought.

              Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ

              Excerpt:

              QUESTION #23 – If Jesus is Michael the Archangel, why did God command in Hebrews 1:6 that ALL the angels worship (do obeisance) him?
              As the context of Hebrews indicates the command for all of God’s angels to bow before the Son takes place at Christ’s second coming. Before that event the angels are not required to worship him. Interestingly, Revelation the 12th chapter depicts Michael and his angels battling with Satan and his angels. Notably, too, that battle erupts when the Kingdom of God comes to power. Elsewhere, though, the angels are shown to be under the command of Jesus. So, whose angels are they — Michael’s or Jesus’? There is no question that it is Jesus who leads the war against Satan. It is unthinkable that anyone other than Jesus would do so since he is destined to crush the serpent. But, there is Michael leading the charge. It requires some intelligence to make the connection.

              But, Jehovah does not command the angels to bow before Michael. They are commanded to do obeisance before Jesus Christ for the reason that Jehovah decreed that his Son should be so honored for having obeyed God without reservation. True, Michael and Jesus are the same person, but he is honored for what he did as a human.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/michael-archangel-jesus-christ/

            • into the light

              Thanks, Kevin. Just at the right time 👍

            • Bklyn Kevin

              More food for thought…

              QUESTION #12 – According to Revelation 5:13-14, ‘the One’ (God the Father) and the Lamb (Jesus) are both worshipped at the same time. The Bible is clear that only the one true God may be worshipped. How then can the Lamb (Jesus) be worshipped if he is not God? Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/lamb-slaughtered-worthy/

            • into the light

              Excellent again. A lot of points I’ve argued are in this article. Thanks Kevin for your excellent service. May Jehovah bless you and all your efforts!

            • Richard Long

              And to follow up here, I do not want to say we should worship Jesus. I’ll stick with giving him his due. I no longer trust WT to tell me what that due is and I DO think they are robbing him and I DO suspect Father isn’t happy about it.

              That’s as far as I go. And I would like to know more.

              Blessings, RL

            • into the light

              God is love. And we know that love is patient, kind, endures all things… So we can trust that he will sort these thing out in due time and do it justly. Until then we need to cultivate those qualities that he looks for in order that we might be found agreeable to him during the hour of test. Father will reveal everything in its due time, we can be sure about it.

              As for WT, it’s obvious that he is tolerating them, in the same way the Pharisees were tolerated. While at it I read something interesting about pharisees last night, here is an excerpt:

              The Pharisees as a Jewish sect provided a great service in teaching and preserving the word of God, how tragic that they were not able to receive it’s most important benefit for themselves the humility required to embrace their Messiah and Savior.

              Source

              Jesus condemned their behavior but also said that we need to observe the things they tell us. If anything, as I said before, we need to stay close by and pay attention and observe them in order to be able to discern where we are in regards to the truth.

              Agape bro 🙏

            • Nigel

              The scriptures are perfectly clear that glory belongs to BOTH the Father, Jehovah AND His Son, Jesus Christ.

              Here are but four examples of many:

              “Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son,+ whom he appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he made the systems of things.*+ 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory+ and the exact representation of his very being,+ and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins,+ he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Heb 1:2-4 NWT

              “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” 2 Cor 4:4 NIV

              “Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am,+ in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.” John 17:24 NWT

              “You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.”+ By subjecting all things to him,+ God left nothing that is not subject to him.+ Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.+ 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels,+ now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,+ so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone.” Heb 2:7-9 NWT

            • into the light

              Of course, I agree. And there are more scriptures as well such as Rev. 5:11, 12 and some others which I can’t remeber atm.
              But Jesus made it clear also that Father is greater than him John 14:28 He was sent by Father to do his will John 6:38. I meant this when I said Jesus was clear that glory belongs to Father. To Jesus on the other hand glory was given, he earned it. Jesus is still under Father’s headship. I hope this clarifies it.

            • Nigel

              Yes, clarified! 🙂

            • Observing Quietly

              Thoughts to consider are, what happened when Jehovah used Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt? Moses made a serious mistake and was not allowed to enter the promised land. He was removed. Jehovah then continued to use the Israelites until they again left him and he had them destroyed by Babylonians. Then when the Jewish system again left him and killed his son, Jesus foretold their destruction and Jehovah let the Roman army destroy that city. Each time, people thought that because it was “Jehovah’s people” or “Jehovah’s house” and they stayed despite the corruption, they too suffered the destruction. Move forward to today, Jesus says to flee, Revelation given by Jesus to John says get out of her, we have received direction to do something. Jehovah has used the modern religion of JW to accomplish his work, but when he’s done with them, they too will be destroyed because they have left him and replaced his son Jesus with their Governing Body of men. Yes, the religion of JW do fit a lot of Bible prophecies and that is what makes Robert Kings writing so fascinating. We all have free will, and if you decide to stay within the city, that’s your choice and if you decide to flee to the mountains and “stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah” that too is your choice. It can be a very difficult decision and one not to be taken lightly. My family is waiting in the mountains, outside that city (JW Org.) watching and waiting to see Jesus come and save this wonderful earth with people of heart that he chooses.

            • marisa gomez

              You have no right to judge the brothers…..you are not Jesus….remember Paul……he was annointed by Jesus.

            • Observing Quietly

              Proverbs 26:17

            • Richard Long

              OC, I agree. I think two distinct “anointings” have become convoluted. While I don’t claim understanding of anointing to any degree of depth, it seems to me that JW theology assumes there is only one, that of the token of prospective royal priesthood. But all Christians have to have holy spirit to succeed in a life of Godly devotion resulting in adoption as sons and daughters by the Father in place of Adam and Eve. If HS can only be received, then that, too, constitutes an anointing. a choosing by Jehovah as one of Jesus’ own.

              To me, one of the most offensive doctrines of the JW religion I have practiced is abuse of the little flock/other sheep distinction by Rutherford to circumvent failure of the imminent Armageddon prophecy in light of the imminent event of membership exceeding 144K that same year. At this point, “other sheep” were asked to begin rejecting the body and blood of Christ at the memorial. The “separating work” begun without Jesus in advance of his parousia.

              While partaking of the emblems remains an unresolved subject for me requiring much, much more prayer and study (thanks GB) on my part, I can say that I am resolved to never again enter a KH and reject the body and blood of Christ. My hope is to simply demonstrate that I await Father and/or Son’s choosing of my destiny rather than accepting that dictated to me by a man or body of men.

            • Observing Quietly

              Agreed Richard, hubby and I also feel the same as you about the memorial. In fact, the last 2 years we have observed it quietly at home without all the fanfare that now goes on at all the KHs around the world. Our aim is to honor the Father Jehovah and his wonderful son Jesus for providing a way for us to have life, not spend an hour listening to the GB promote itself with the observing taking place almost as an afterthought.

            • Richard Long

              Thanks, OC. HS has not given me an answer yet as to what I will do, only what I will not do. Probably not a good idea to jeopardize you privacy by telling me more.

            • Richard Long

              “But I do think that preaching work needs to be organized as otherwise it would result in chaos where everyone teaches their own thing.”

              ITL, I’ve been putting a great of thought and prayer into this matter for the past few weeks and I think it is evident your premise I quoted above has to be adjusted because it completely ignores the existence and operation of Holy Spirit.

              Jesus told his disciples he would provide a helper that would teach them all things. What was that man’s name? How was he to “organize” his work? I cant find those concepts of “organization” or “leaders” relevant to the first century Christians in scripture, can you? And yet, ALL Christians are to preach, teach, and baptize. How? By means of the operation of HS on and within them individually. It is HS that Christ taught us by example to ask for and receive in the fullest measure in order to accomplish our Father’s will. To imagine such a basic and straightforward teaching of the Christ would somehow require modification due to human population increase or passage of time is evidence of disbelief in Christ’s authority, otherwise known as “lack of faith”, also known as “the sin that easily entangles”. JW’s are certainly more susceptible to such entanglement precisely because they are so deluded enough to convince themselves they are impervious to it.

              It is utter fallacy for any Christian to allow or even imagine another man (or body of men) between him/herself and their lord. We have already established that ALL religion is a construct of Satan specifically designed to separate humans from their heavenly Father. All operate in the modality of “empire” and engage in the the insatiable enterprise of acquiring resources that do not belong to them and converting them into currency while bypassing the creation of anything of intrinsic value. This is the description JW’s (and every other “religion”) fit most precisely.

              That “dragnet’ is being cast by the Angels. No humans are involved in the process of catching and sorting the fish. Humans are only involved in helping “fish” remember they are “fish”, how they came to be “fish”, what “fish” are expected to do with their precious gift of existence, and what hope the “fish” might have as Jehovah’s will is accomplished.

              Fullest blessings, RL

            • into the light

              Hi Richard, sorry for late reply, was caught up with some personal stuff and wasn’t really on the internet for the past couple weeks. I do agree to the extent with you and I believe you’re right in some aspects, but I don’t see it as black and white. I still see JW as fulfilling the Christ’s command to preach. I don’t really see it elsewhere being done to such an extent. Org aside, the ones leading it will pay the price for what they’re doing anyway, there needs to be awareness of god’s incoming kingdom. That’s where JW rank and file fit in, imperfect as they are. Jesus advised us to endure, and being associated, even remotely, with the brotherhood is a part of enduring. Everything will fit into its place in its right time. Remember that master has the household. The condition it’s in right now is irrelevant since master will take care of his stuff upon return. I agree that emphasizing the need for “organizing” is reducing the role of holy spirit on their part, but on the flip side, what JW have achieved is clearly a demonstration of HS being active in achieving the purpose of good news being preached. If there is no need for Org as a framework or platform for brotherhood to act from, then where will MOL be revealed?

              I know that Jehovah also used someone other than his chosen ones in the past, like Nebuchadnezzar to execute his will and he will certainly do the same thing again in the future to discipline his people. But for the time being the most important thing is proclaiming that Christ is soon coming to establish his kingdom on earth.

              On a personal note, and I don’t mean to be insulting and am saying this out of love, I think you’re a bit rigid and too critical of opinions which don’t align with yours. And i can personally relate since I tend to be like that too. Your critical thinking skills are superb but I think you need to soften your heart a bit.

              Agape, ITL

            • Burt Reynolds

              I agree with you. It appears to me that the scriptures indicate Jehovah has chosen people, individually as a person, or in entire nations. Jehovah does not change. Neither does he confuse his people, but hides from them, issues they do not, or should not contemplate.

              I agree with Roberts hypothesis as far as I understand it but no matter how sound that reasoning may be, what is clear is that we can draw so many inferences from our individual study. I really enjoy the benefits of meeting on this site, because it clarifies a great deal, yet at the back of my mind, other than the solid elementary truth and requirements, is always a big warning sign saying we just don’t know the detail. Having said that, the discussion in itself, forms a picture. I suppose how much we depend on that is a warning in itself.

            • Craig Knight

              Yes, personal study without other’s input can be dangerous. That’s why this forum is so good. We can kick around our ideas and if we get off track others here can help our seeking of truth. Metal sharpening metal. But as you say some things we cannot know until God reveals them and we should be careful not to assume we understand it all. 1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. 26 Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.…

            • Daisy

              “For now, we can only see a dim and blurry picture of things, as when we stare into polished metal.
              I realise that everything I know is only part of the big picture.
              But one day, WHEN JESUS ARRIVES, we will see clearly, FACE TO FACE.
              In that day, I will fully know just as I have been fully known to God” Paul 1cor13:12 Voice Bible. 🙂

            • black curtain

              Burt, as always I liked your reply :-))) as it has your imprimatur all over it. A thousand points, ouch (hyperbole for comic timing), and a liberal slather of conjecture and speculation. You can’t put a man down for something as good as those things, since I did the same with my post.
              While sitting in my office I heard a noise behind me and I saw my energy running out the door when I realised there is too much for me to respond to. Have you read the “Adventures of Asterix and Obelix?” There is one episode of Asterix and the soothsayer, whose name is Prolix. I therefore christen you as Prolix. I appreciate your thoughts they are always enjoyable. Kindest regards BC

            • Burt Reynolds

              Then I shall call you Obelisk, as nothing can defeat you, or get past you! Touché .

            • into the light

              Well, we can condemn the lies, no problem, I have nothing against that. But if we invest majority of our time to go and look for more condemnatory evidence, that reflects badly on us. What are our motives? Jehovah is the revealer of secrets. I think it is more important for us to adjust our attitudes and invest our time in cultivating fruits of the spirit. I’ve been parroting this for a while, but I am convinced that it is more important than anything else. When push comes to the shove, and it certainly will, lot of Christians will find themselves in a very confusing situation. How will they recognize Christ’s brothers at that time? John 13:35; 1. Peter 4:8.

              That Rachel Dolezal situation is crazy. I jsut looked her up quickly, and right now her argument is that race is social construct and she can identify herself as black if she wants. Crazy, I’ tell ya.

              So by the same reasoning WT condemns the Christendom and pronounces judgment on them because they merely claim to be god’s people, so that’s why desolation of Jerusalem is fulfilled on them. But as you say, claiming something doesn’t make it so.

              But to other things 😁
              Revelation it doesn’t even follow the logic of the gospels. And it was already mentioned twice before about the disgusting thing.
              But what was the disgusting thing in 1st century anyway?
              Daniel said it would be put in place. Jesus said, when you catch sight of it run away.

              We know that in 1st century Christians fled Jerusalem when the Roman army surrounded the city in 66 CE. In that way they caught sight of the disgusting thing, and fled. But that disgusting thing wasn’t installed at that time as Romans, for no apparent reason, retreated. Christians took Jesus; advice seriously. They didn’t have the attitude of “waiting for something that may not occur”.

              The disgusting thing in Daniel 12 is explained in Daniel 8. So when you compare that to small horn of Revelation, you see that, yeah, there is a connection. It’s just not called the same.

            • black curtain

              I suggested a careful read of Rev chap’s 17, 18 and 13. It doesn’t seem like you have done that, well no problem since what I wrote was speculation based on those chapters. It required careful analysis. I can’t agree that Rev doesn’t follow the logic of the Gospels, but it speaks of a situation that exists nearly 2000 yrs later. What happened to one is not the same as the other. What I was pointing out is that the warning Jesus and Daniel gave related to Jerusalem. The WT is not Jerusalem and there is no where to run to. So why should such a warning be relevant? Is that the reason it is MIA?
              Some, is the operative word here regarding those fled. some left long before the Romans attacked in 66CE. But one thing is certain if we looked at christianity as a power curve on a graph, it nearly plummeted to zero, after 70CE on that curve, meaning an awful lot were slaughtered in Jerusalem.
              I wondered for proof verses however in your response. There is no connection that the DT and the little horn are one and the same thing, but you need to reread Rev 17.
              The first shall be last and the last shall be first, back to why WT is part of Christendom. I was saying that WT claims to be Gods people, and everyone else isn’t.

              “So by the same reasoning WT condemns (the, sic) Christendom and pronounces judgment on them because they merely claim
              to be god’s people, so that’s why desolation of Jerusalem is fulfilled
              on them. But as you say, claiming something doesn’t make it so.”

              I don’t understand what you mean in the above.
              Then there is; How will they recognize Christ’s brothers at that time? John 13:35; 1. Peter 4:8. RK gives the answer to this one he describes them as “glowing” , hence I figure that they may be easy to see. Investing your time in boosting the fruits of the spirit can only be most helpful, but in the context of Isaac, speaking the truth of what he sees and knows is important. Failing to do so produces cognitive dissonance, which is like the common cold, spreads like wildfire and hurts if not treated by discussion. Others have different gifts as you suggest.
              Nonetheless thank you for your thoughts bc

            • into the light

              Thanks bc, I will carefully read soon as I had no time for that yet. In the meantime, please refer to Craig’s comment to Burt. To me it makes much sense in regards to last days.

              “So by the same reasoning WT condemns (the, sic) Christendom and pronounces judgment on them because they merely claim
              to be god’s people, so that’s why desolation of Jerusalem is fulfilled
              on them. But as you say, claiming something doesn’t make it so.”
              I don’t understand what you mean in the above.

              This was in connection with Rachel Dolezal story, where she claimed something which she was not. I said that WT uses that reasoning to apply judgment to Christendom because they merely claim to be god’s people. This is the WT explanation of the fulfillment of the desolation of Jerusalem prophecy. Basically, since they claim to be gods people, then it must be fulfilled on them…
              That being said, I don’t think there are god’s people at present, as he will chose a people for his name during the time of separation. But there is the temple, as Craig explained.

              Then there is; How will they recognize Christ’s brothers at that time? John 13:35; 1. Peter 4:8. RK gives the answer to this one he describes them as “glowing” , hence I figure that they may be easy to see.

              I think I misspoke when I said Christ’s brothers. I applied this to all Christians. I should have said disciples.

            • black curtain

              Nice reply, good recovery.
              My very best regards bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              Black curtain is mistaken in the example of Dolezal in claiming she is something she is not, and thus the argument is not sound. The reasoning rests on the given that there are different races. Well, there is no such thing as separate races. People confuse culture with types. Well, types of people do not exist and it matters not the colour of the wrapping they come in. That is variety, or at the most, adaptation and the mixing of gene pool. Genetic difference does not denote a ‘race’. What is being referred to by the Dolezal case is actually culture and which, as we know is simply a way of life. It was quite possible that Dolezal associated her mind with the black culture. Whether it is true that she did is another question. I associate myself with the English culture, but my family is tutonic and my ancestors were goat herders. Claiming something and owning it is quite possible. Another example would be our royal family. They are no more Royal than I am, but people acknowledge them to be Royal. But as the bible rightly points out, they still have to go to the toilet!

              Perhaps a more tangible way of looking at the issues in the correct way, would be to say that it is irrelevant what labels that the watchtower and Christendom apply to themselves, and what we should be looking at is how Jehovah deems them to be. To date the argument has been on earthly opinion and conjecture. For my part, I cannot get away from the fact that Jehovah is examining initially a particular issue, not the general homogenous one that will come on its tail. It is wrong to level at you that your opinion would be different had you read the chapters. I have read them too, but my opinion is quite different.

              This would bring into the equation then, how the bible describes these issues and how Applicable is our reasoning in these matters and which is by far, the most sensible route to take over our own opinions.

            • Richard Long

              Burt, just a tiniest bit of Americana to round out the picture. Here, it often comes down to one striving for the advantage that can be gained from the largess of government policy. For instance, some in my life think I am crazy for not pursuing whatever benefit I might be *entitled* to for my 1/16th “First Nation” heritage. Whatever.
              Here, “race” vs “culture” is often a difference without distinction. Hate goes a long way to equate them, and a big business has sprung from it.

              Not saying such is the case for Ms Dolezal, but she is reported to have once sued a university for discriminating against her because she was “white”.

              Here’s a pretty fair treatment of her story in Guardian:

              https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel

              From your professional life, you can appreciate more than most of us she just needed some help she never got and it all started back home with what some might consider severely unbalanced parents. Personally, I think she never had a chance. I am inclined to give her points for following her heart, though.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Making a business out of difference! How sad is that. Thanks. I’ve learnt something. Don’t we all just wait for the day!

            • Observing Quietly

              Burt, the Dolezal woman didn’t claim to be black culturally. She claimed to be black ancestrally. It is a good example of one claiming something they did not have the right to. You have missed BC’s point entirely I think.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Maybe you are right OQ. I cannot claim any great Insite on the matter other than race does not exist, and so in any investigative matter, neither the accuser, or Dolezal can make this claim in the terms argued by society.

              Biologically, strange as it may seem, no one can claim an ancestral belonging to a ‘race’ other than the entire human one. Why? Because we all stem from Adam, and then through the very narrow gate of Noah. Time does not produce races. Thus to claim ancestry, we should term ourselves (possibly ) Arabic. Just from where else did the African tribes come from? Why are our skins every shade from black to white? Essentially because we are looking at genetic variation, and along with those genetic variations come cultural difference merely through grouping….tribes…

              There is no black or white race, just as there is no Chinese race, but look at the cultural differences around them….Japan, Korea, Cambodia, Mongolia, Russian tribal, and examine closely, the changes. So why is it then, that colour of skin denotes a ‘race’, an ancestry? It does not. We apply it to others, we, ourselves, say there is a difference, even the evolutionists say we all sprang from ‘Lucy’, the ‘first’ humanoid in Africa. Maybe this is Dolezal’s claim? So even if you look at it scripturally or from evolution, the argument of ‘ancestry’ is scuppered because we are all a mixture of and from, everywhere on this world. Not only that, but the continental plates indicate that at one time, the land mass was all one, with no sea dividing. Gwondana Land, it was called. So we all come from the same country too! The only right we have, is to call ourselves human. Dolezal is correct. We can claim not just a cultural ancestry of our choosing to identify with, but a single point of Genesis also.

            • black curtain

              OQ is right Burt and I checked the story before I used it, I was also in Spokane earlier this year when the story erupted. Sometimes you fire from the hip without taking aim.
              Nonetheless, I agree with you regarding race. The dictionaries say otherwise but I prefer to call different people ethnic groups (meaning same family distantly related) rather than race because as you say there is only one race and we all belong to it.
              Just to demonstrate that let me give you an example however of how close we really are. This is a model only and is not literal.
              If Adam and Eve had their first child at 50 years old, and that child had his first child at 50 years old (meaning 2 first born child per couple each century, and this was repeated by every descendant every 50 years, until whoever reads this, how many children in a direct line between you the reader, and to your forefather Adam?
              The answer may surprise you. But since this is a mathematical model, does it have metric as a serious possibility? Check the numbers of the genealogy of Christ by Mathew and Luke. It tells you how close to everyone else we really are.
              My regards bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              I don’t think you have read properly that which I have written. I am aware that the story is true, so I am not shooting from the hip as you put it, but even if I were, I would not miss as I prefer a shot gun. What I am simply saying is that the woman in question is correct in what she claims, though accepting that the motive for claiming it may be false, in other words, for pecuniary gain, or attention seeking. This woman was judged by a society that is hypocritical and self serving, not to mention ill informed, but also by herself, and hoist by her own petard and which serves her well. It does not alter the fact that she was right in terms of geneticism, and they were wrong, but neither knew it.

              As to your question of generations: there are an average of thirty every thousand years….I have factored in the shorter life span since the flood. It would be unreasonable to calculate on your suggestion. The outcome is that we are related to, at the present world population, every seven or eight people on this earth, and which is rather too close for comfort in my opinion. I can imagine that many people would wish for a greater berth than that around my family. I know I would.

            • black curtain

              Wrong again Burt, she did claim to be of a certain descent and her claims were false. As to being judged by “society”, that too is wrong. At least give black people the dignity of recognising and calling out a woman that was making a parody of being being black herself when she knew it was untrue. It was people of colour that objected to her not “society” because she had lied. As for the genetic’s, clearly you haven’t done your homework there. See Ancestry.com and ask your self why they can trace whom you are related to by a simple saliva test. See also Mendel’s Law of genetic inheritance. Also, ask yourself why Jehovah loves variety and how he manages to do that?

              As for the generations I thought I gave enough clues for you to solve it. I carefully explained it was a mathematical model which as a research tool enables one to see what happens in definable conditions without large detail. My mistake this time.

              The answer is 120 people.

              bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              I do not appreciate being patronised black curtain for providing time and thought for you with answers to your questions. Just because you refer to sources higher than yourself does make them correct. Just because you write it or discuss it before hand does not make it gospel. Just because you describe so-called clues to some riddle you gave in mind, does not make you an authority and just because you can come up with the logic of man, does not render you intelligent, and neither does sitting in your office make you a busy person.

              I will not argue further with you on this issue as it not what this site is for and is pointless. I suggest it is a fruitless quest to ask questions you are too proud to contemplate or yield on and to set riddles to enhance your assumed authority on explanation. Well, I do not mind banter, but I am not here to play games or be distracted unduly by the contradictory machinations of this system. Were you to argue from your own understanding, or respect the authority of the bible, it might be a little more informative and provide reasoned debate on the subject matter, but you choose to simply quote others, and to which of course, there is no end to it. It’s not what I came here for, and if that is not why you are here, I suggest you stop spreading broken glass upon the pathway of others, along with obtuse arguing simply for your own amusement. I for one am tired of it.

            • Observing Quietly

              Wow Burt, I am surprised. You always seem such a kind warm person, but this attack on BC is a total surprise. Multiple times I have seen you and BC tease and joke with each other. I have read all these comments and interactions and am so taken aback at your response. I was recently attacked with foul language and insults as well on one of Robert Kings pages. Something bad is happening if we start attacking each other. I will pray for you and BC and ask Jehovah to give both of you peace.

            • Burt Reynolds

              It is not an ‘attack’., OQ. It’s a defense. Please Don’t read more into it than it is, that simply escalates it. My remarks are simply borne of indignation. I did not come here to be spoken to in such a way. I did not ask for it, did not solicit it and won’t put up with it. I’ve had too much of it in the past to tolerate it any longer and I do not intend to put up with it here. As you point out, it’s divisive and it’s not even a biblical topic. Discussing the bible is the topic, not personality game playing. I’m sick of it. Neither is it a question of my warmth, such as that may be, but of standards. I am not some paragon of warmth, and you should not think I am. I am just the same as everyone else.

            • black curtain

              Burt lets just call it a 1 all draw and move on. Emails never do the contributors justice, face to face is always better. Perhaps that day will come for every one that looks for truth.
              bc

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you enter the house, greet the household. If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city. Matthew 10:11-15.

              Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city. Luke 9:5.

            • into the light

              Somehow I completely missed this comment. I agree with your statement that “it is irrelevant what labels that the watchtower and Christendom apply to themselves, and what we should be looking at is how Jehovah deems them to be.”

            • Michael J Hewitt

              So who rises
              from the abyss of a mortal blow? That’s a snap shot of the same beast before she gets on and conspires to have the Holy ones killed.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Get out of her my people.
              Excerpt:
              simply take note of the fact that the beast that ascends from the abyss wages war upon the two anointed witnesses and conquers them and kills them. This beast from the abyss is the eighth king. Its rising up from the abyss signifies the beast’s recovery from the sword-stroke upon one of its heads. This is a future event that portrays the crash of the Anglo-American system and the imposition of a tyrannical new world order, so-called. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/get-people/

              The wild beast from the abyss.Read more.>
              https://e-watchman.com/beast-abyss/

              Read a lot more> Search results for: rises from the abyss. https://e-watchman.com/?s=rises+from+the+abyss+

            • Michael J Hewitt

              Thanks, briefed now.

            • Richard Long

              Hi bc! In case you haven’t yet seen it, and though it only intersects your point, Vivlon did an interesting treatment of this topic in an article titled “Are we in the Last Days”. Can’t say I have the capacity to digest on his level, but the back and forth with Meleti and Yehorakam in the commentary is thought provoking too.

              Sorry, no can do on the *forbidden* link.

              Also bears mentioning that people asking the Son of God for signs while he was healing people in their midst seemed to aggravate our Lord *just* a *little* bit.

              Fullest blessings, RL

            • black curtain

              Thanks Richard I will check it out
              my kindest bc

            • Coimbatore Isaac

              I don’t look for reasons to condemn WTS, but how all these things fits into the prophecies. What these un-scriptural works the WTS is doing is like the Baal worship in Israel. Ancient Israelites worshiped the Idols of other gods physically and directly. but just read Hosea:2:8;13 and chapter 8:4, how it fits to Christian congregation? How about Hosea:8:6-8 is applicable to modern times? Even though the WTS is not physically and directly worshiping idols the things what they do shows it is indirect idolatry. How about this week’s digging the gems Hosea:1-7 fits into today’s Christian congregation, How about Hosea:2:1-2 or how did you answered especially Hosea:2:3 hey just see verse 9 and worst is especially verse 10.
              So do you mean to say that such words of Jehovah convinced by a million arguments that Bible presented to them?

              This week they did not given me a chance to answer in the digging the gems for Coimbatore guys have come to understanding that I apply all the things to Christian congregation that are prophesied on Israel and Judah.

              You said: You have to admit that the JW have been instrumental in bringing the truth about ransom to people and are probably the reason you know about Jehovah.
              Hey I am the one who said that those who talk against the JW organization is not God’s organization should be removed from this site. So will I do that mistake?

              NO!! I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT JW ORGANIZATION IS GOD’S ORGANIZATION.

            • into the light

              I appreciate your answer brother! I guess my problem is that I’ve heard so much negativity towards JW that, even when I hear something that is balanced but condemnatory, it sets off a defense mechanism. But a lot of you prove to be good Christians and I look forward to learning a lot from you.

              I went over this week’s Life and Ministry last night and read some of the scriptures you mentioned. Hosea 8:4 And 2:9,10 are how I see things. But here’s what I am wondering. Did the old Israelites go and deliberately worship Baal or were they misled in the same way as the JW are today?

            • Thinking

              I also agree with you..we know the errors ..The faults..but this makes it all the more important to build each other up with encouragement..to help each other to stay strong..
              we must truly dwell on jesus and his love for his sheep..whilst they tried to survive until he bought his temple to nothing..
              Stay strong brother…there are many you will soon be able to help…

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              May be misled by some false prophets who would have misguided the people that they are not getting rain, and want fertility or protection from foreign invasion ancient false prophes were similar to MOL of our days. Satan always used them to derail Jehovah’s worship and put an hurdle to Messiah’s coming, because Messiah’s coming means end to Satan.

            • Observing Quietly

              Why? Isrealites were God’s people, they were destroyed, Jews were God’s people, they were destroyed, now you want JW to be God’s people when you know that God is going to destroy them? As a religion, they have been rejected and will be destroyed. God does not need any religion. That is man’s idea. There was no religion in the Garden of Eden, nor is there proof of any religion in heaven. If the earth is to be returned to the state of the Garden of Eden, there will NOT be any religion there. All will have a personal relationship with Jehovah individually. Revelation is saying get out of religion, all and any religion as Jehovah will destroy them all. May I suggest you read Robert King’s newest article.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Yeah I know about revelation, yes God says get out my people why? The WTS once bearing Jehovah’s name itself would be integrated into the system of Babylon the great at that time(= NWO & new age religion) through MOL, just as how ancient Jews were exiled and integrated into the Babylonian empire in 587bce. That doesn’t mean Jehovah selected other people to send Messiah did he? Similarly though Jehovah destroys WTS that doesn’t mean JWS are rejected because before getting anointed and handing over of Jesus’ belongings to the slave, they should have beared the name of Jehovah and WTS meets that criteria, that makes me to believe that JW is God’s org, yet at present it is corrupted.

            • black curtain

              Hello Isaac, I see you are in the market place of ideas. There are lots to choose from and how to test them and your own is hard because of the competing noise.
              I have a few comments regarding your thoughts. You mention that Jews were integrated into Babylon, that is certainly true for some Jews who accepted that happily stayed. In fact that stayed so long that only in the last few decades did a Jewish presence disappear form Iraq.
              Other did not compromise and these returned as a small remnant when the 70years of sabbaths, or desolation had been paid in full and began rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem.
              1. Why did all this happen? You ask the question why didn’t Jehovah use other people to produce the Messiah?
              (Genesis 22:18) 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’”
              The reason he didn’t abandon the Jews was simple, Jehovah made a promise to Abraham affecting the future of all humans, to save the entire race of people, it was not to save Israelites for the sake of themselves.
              2. Jehovah made a written contract/ covenant with the Israelites, THE LAW. It was a contract that said:- if you do this I will do that for you. In so doing Jehovah gave the Israelites the right of first refusal to be a kingdom of priests to the the rest of humankind. You know history as well as I do. They refused to keep their end of the contract as a nation and thus they were legally deemed to be in breach of contract and were summarily dismissed at 70 CE.
              On this basis
              1. They were instrumental in murdering his son
              2. The ark of the covenant disappeared (some argued it wasn’t there) and the point being there was no point of validity of the covenant if it was gone.
              3. The genealogical records were destroyed and the lineage of the designated family of high priests was gone forever. Without them any sacrifice was illegitimate.
              So points 2 and 3 deny the Israelites the needed proof of two witnesses to verify any claim they made. Est alea jacta, (Julius Caesar prior to crossing the Rubicon.)

              So there is history in some claims and there is no history in others. The basis for any claim of a relationship must be provable by evidence from both parties that their is a contractual relationship. With preference given to written confirmation and some other tangible connection then please put that forward keeping in mind that

              However, the apostle said regarding these special gifts: “Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.” (1 Corinthians 13:8) Evidently included among the gifts that would be “done away with” were the various forms of divine communication. After the death of the apostles, God ceased to impart these special gifts to his servants.

              Even ones claiming anointing have no proof of that. That will be determined by Christ at his parousia.

              You could claim that Jehovah has used the WTC, but they does not make them his people’.
              3 In ancient times,.. Assyria, at the time that it was the world power of the day, the second world power of Bible history was used as a tool. What, though, was the greater power that was able to use the Assyrian World Power as a mere tool or hand instrument? The identity of that greater power was made known to men sometime before the Assyrians under King Sennacherib invaded the land of the Kingdom of Judah in the year 732 B.C.E… Thus Isaiah declares that the Great Power using the tool is “the true Lord, Jehovah of armies,” yes, “Israel’s Light . . . and his Holy One.” Is this Holy One capable of using an entire nation as a mere tool? Yes.
              Food for thought Isaac, I hope it helps.
              My kindest regards bc

            • Thinking

              I will read your paper when you publish it brother….that’s preety deep…but yeah we have no business going to satans house to do Jehovah’s work.
              This has stumbled many..but this is also prophecy playing out too..as

              Mathew 24 and many will fall away and Betray on another and hate one another .

              NAB Daniel 11:35
              Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine purge and make them pure until the time of the end, because it is still to come at the appointed time
              .
              English Standard Version
              Isaiah 8:15
              and many shall stumble on it . They shall fall and be broken they shall be snared and taken

            • Thinking

              So we are not members of UNESCO anymore?….I did see us on that list once years ago..but it seems we are no longer on the list…
              Perhaps they removed themselves when they removed their NGO status..
              This is important.

          • into the light

            Here is what the quick search yielded:
            In 2004, Jehovah’s Witnesses took part in the OSCE conference along with many other groups.

            https://78.media.tumblr.com/6ba2e02a29aa0b20c640a5a05e873b45/tumblr_n71jaaMsRl1s865f6o1_500.jpg

          • trudy

            You know could it be they lost a load of money ..as alit of things are in trouble .If jesus was here ,he say you made my father’s house cheap in every respect .I show 4,jws the investment and they don’t belive and one is not talking to me at this time even that I show 400 million investment in there name watchtower. Block and white ..they can’t belive it

            • Coimbatore Isaac

              I agree with you but with evidence, reply to easajw@gmail.com

            • trudy

              I have sent it to you .Shocking

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              It is not shocking, it is an evidence for my article on Naboth Ahaz and Jezebel. It will be integrated in my article. Thank you for your kind help. I will give you when it is finished.

          • The voice

            Just Google watchtower society osce you will get numerous articles

      • The difference between their OSCE activity and their being an associate level NGO with the UN back in the 90’s is that they are not considered political partners with the OSCE as with the UN. The various European JW NGOs that participate in OSCE do so openly and focus on issues relevant to Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is like a forum. On the other hand, the WT was a secret member of the UN and the membership required the WT to propagandize in behave of the UN, which it did. That is the big difference.

        • Thinking

          I have had wrong thinking on this for some time then. Thank you for clarifying this

        • Richard Long

          Robert, I understand the distinction. I’m not ok with either level of participation. Are you?

          • Not really. I think it shows a lack of trust in God. I understand the part about legally establishing and defending the good news, but where do you draw the line? The Watchtower has hundreds of lawyers and legal types working on stuff. They are considered full time servants. But full time at what? I gleaned over a hundred jw.org emails that are the inboxes of legal departments in countries all around the world.

            • Richard Long

              I agree.

  • trudy

    Wow , I show these pure bible scriptures to prove the 1914 thing is wrong and I was told I had mans view and scripture and he deleted me from face book .They are dropping like flies when you show pure scriptures .It amazing .How can i be man view when the scriptures black and white even he said no one was there when Jesus was on the pole ,i show there where more nails in his hands and he says like i say i have mans view .I said i did not write scriptures incredible .

  • trudy

    I saw Roberts post on twitter the new head place of the Warwick structure .It felt strange and that people are gathering to look at relics ..Can I say that ..or am i going to be attacked for that .I am gob smacked .The halls sold off and this place here miles from anywhere why did they need suck a big plot 200 od acers if i am right and all the other little halls maybe a few people in a hall but they are valuable even one they have forgotten these ones and left them to stray ,even if they did not believe all watchtower at least they had a place to go to meet a few ..

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      They want to invest in real estate and make some money when WTS falls down and go inside bunker.

  • Max

    “It shouldn’t be too much longer” Thank you for the encouragement brother King. Even though we will have to go through the GT and probably be killed in the process to reach the NW just the hope of seeing this evil system gone and finally heaven and earth united again in holy service to The Father is worth the sacrifice.

    • Daisy

      Exciting times Max! And as you say, we may be facing death in order to enter the new heaven on earth. But we need not fear, as we practise death and resurrection every night when we sleep, when we’re conscious of nothing at all, only to awaken in the morning. And if we don’t wake in the morning, we’ll wake into the new cleansed earth. How fabulous is our hope in our loving Father’s promises Max! Rom 8:10

      • Passi from B.C

        ” we practice death and resurrection everynight when we sleep”

        I like the way you’ve put it sis!💕

        • Daisy

          Hello Passi … Great to see you’re still with us. Much love from Daisy

      • Max

        I never thought of death and resurrection that way Daisy… Very insightful thought! “We practice death and resurrection every night” I think I’ll use this when preaching to people. I like it!

        • The voice

          Are you still participating in the preaching work?

          • Max

            Yes Iam.

            • The voice

              Knowing all the things that have been revealed about the organization does it cause any conflict. I am curious because I am dealing with this at present

            • Max

              No because I only teach them about the end and how to survive it. I always end with Jehovah’s promise of the NW and eternal life.

            • The Raven

              Hi Max. I’m gald to know you’re still doing that. That’s what I have heard from others who still preach and teach. It’s basically what they need. Robert mentioned that the whole of the good news and truth would fit on an index card.

            • ha, tell us about it

  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    For some reason I think the new world headquarters is a basic admittance that they the Watchtower doesn’t know or at least in some way has admitted they don’t know the day or hour of Christ’s coming otherwise they wouldn’t be so inclined to do something on such a grand scale.

    • into the light

      The changes in teachings and how the preaching is done indicates that they are making a similar move to what they did in ‘75. In the meantime there is another grand-scale project in UK. Notice how most of the work is done in the countries of western civilization.

      • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

        It’s sad all these years being told the end is right on top of us but they”re going about business as usual

        • trudy

          People are pretty bitter about that ,I am bailing out my jw friend as another just jw swindle him. He is only a window cleaner and has a bad back ,he is struggling but always out to help folk .I wish I live near him nice person .Few around here .You know my so called worldly mates are understanding more than the jws how strange is that ,,when I show them scriptures they see it ,but jw can’t .

          • Craig Knight

            Trudy – That’s what happens with 100 years of deep brainwashing!!! Brain washing doesn’t clean your brain however. 🙂

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Hey brother nice logic

      • sally

        Yes I noticed that to. I just watched the video of the new headquarters that Robert put up, and as I was watching it I thought of some of the basic minimum standard KH’s around the globe, especially in African countries – some congregations still in shacks without windows in them. How can they justify it? isn’t that the way of the world? The have and the have nots? Imagine being brothers and sisters in African countries and suchlike in a little basic building with long wooden benches to all sit on for 2 hours at a time seeing that video of the luxery and plushness of the warwick site?

        • into the light

          Imagine being brothers and sisters in African countries and suchlike in a little basic building with long wooden benches to all sit on for 2 hours[…]

          That’s where you will find the true love for the truth.

          • Isaac of Coimbatore

            Yeah that makes sense.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Sounds a lot nicer than my old Kingdom Hall!

        • Burt Reynolds

          That is to remind the African brothers that the headquarters are the spiritual residence of Jehovah, and that all is under control. I must admit I found it quite an amusing video of the library, in that one pulled a lever and a little window squeeked open to reveal the answer. One thing I do know though, is that if they truly do have a complete bible from the 1100s it’s incredibly rare if not unique and worth a six, or seven figure sum and that they cannot read a word of it! Yet again, it is an inappropriate use of funds meant for the preaching work. They should give it to me and I will keep it safe for them.

        • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

          To the WT it’s easy to justify because they won’t be getting much as far as donations. It’s all about the bottom line, the Almighty dollar

          • into the light

            That makes sense. I guess the living standards also play the role. I mean they’d probably become targets if they had luxurious halls in the poorer places…

            • Burt Reynolds

              If china does grab the petro-dollar from America in the near future….I think they are trying for it now, as they take more Saudi oil than America , then we shall see the dollar collapse. They will all soon be in sheds.

            • Jamie Mac

              apart from the preppers and the rich who will have constructed underground bunkers. I mentioned Anderson shelters before, but even the expense of those will be out of reach of most people, cus they aint gunna have any money or food. It’s so sad to think of these future events. What a mess we have caused.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well you can always dig a hole and cover it with paving slabs! That will help with shrapnel and blast, or, being a boffin, why not create for yourself a virtual nuclear bunker a mile underground with six foot thick steel doors, and all the luxuries you could wish for to last you through. You could make a virtual annex for me and my tribe while you are at it. When the time comes, you can post me a link to it!

            • Jamie Mac

              Sorry Burt, don’t think the internet will be available at that time.How many are in your tribe?

            • Richard Long

              It does give one pause to reflect on how we JW’s, from the top down, have allowed our thinking to be molded by the world. We claim exclusivity as “God’s household”, yet rationalize the wholesale neglect of our brothers under oppression by the system. Is the reason luxurious halls exist in one place while modest halls exist in others by command of Christ or by perhaps some different Master?

            • into the light

              True. I was driving this last summer thru a nice neighborhood, in a neighboring town. And there was the KH there which looked very luxurious, judging by what I could see driving by. It had a masonry facade and overall looked very expensive compared to the surroundings. It looked much nicer than the one I visit sometimes. And I just thought how wrong that was… to see that kind of disparity. I don’t know man. Our hall is very modest and houses 2 cong’s plus some language groups like Greeks and Italians and meets the needs for everything that is needed.
              Then again, they are probably built according to the purchasing power of the members of the congregation…

            • Richard Long

              One principle I have mentioned here before is embodied in the anecdote of the comfortably afforded man who, when asked why he chose to drive a modest vehicle when he could easily own better, replied: ” I do not want a luxury car if my brother can’t have one, too.”. Oh, to be *that* Christian!

            • into the light

              Funny you should mention that. I witnessed an exchange between the brothers a while ago at the KH where they were talking about cars. One of them likes to change them often, as he can afford to. But they are not brand new cars anyway and I see it as him flipping the cars. He said he gets bored with driving same car for too long. In any case, the other brother (who is older) tells him with his holier-than-you attitude how he is being materialistic and blah blah, and how he has a car this many years old blah blah, kingdom interests blah blah, important things and more blah blah. And he was so proud of himself and looked so smug. I found it really funny that he had a need to preach to the brother about how he should be living his life. But to make things funnier, a few months later I saw that holier-than-you brother with a brand new car 😁

              I mean I’m just fed up with the level of pettiness among people in general today. This system is a joke…

            • Richard Long

              Notice the anecdote had the man living his principle, and not enforcing or even recommending it to others.

              My question would be which of the two brothers in your account was following the Christ more closely?

            • into the light

              You’re right. That brother has displayed level of modesty all Christians should strive to have. He didn’t enforce it, but he was a living example of it. As for those 2 brothers, if you’re judging who follows Christ more closely judging by that situation only, I think one that was flipping cars has displayed more Christ-like attitude in that he wasn’t the one preaching something he wasn’t ready to do.

            • Richard Long

              And if the one observing the exchange had no car, few means and barely enough to eat, which of the two would have represented Christ to him more faithfully? The point I’m making is we ALL are going to have some explaining to do when called to account for the way we conducted ourselves amongst and in relation to all other members of our human family.

            • into the light

              Thanks for the explanation! I wasn’t thinking about the one observing (me in this case, and I got a car). I was looking at it as one walking the walk and one just talking about it and showing himself to be superior based on his own opinion. But true, we will all be called to account.

            • Richard Long

              Well I wondered if you were the only observer? Imagine my “observer” alone with his thoughts later that day, and we can see a pretty strong argument for not having all we can, just because we can. This is my indictment on the org and all religion generally. “True Religion” is an oxymoron, IMO.

            • into the light

              I think we agreed before on the fact the religion implies it is a human (or in your case Satan’s) construct.

      • Craig Knight

        Did you hear about WT saying that the preaching work is now over? Sounds like a move to scare JW’s back into the fold since so many are fleeing.

        • into the light

          Yeah I heard not that it’s over but that it might be soon over. I’m not sure whether it’s WT saying that but some brothers and sisters certainly are.
          I mentioned today that they will probably do the same move they did back in ’75 to create a scare. It seems like there is a pattern of them doing it every 35-40 years. Nevertheless, we need to pay attention, too, since the whole world is in tumult. Maybe it is brothers and sisters discerning the MOL in the org and thus fleeing?

          • Craig Knight

            I watched a recording on a youtube channel with that couple who have been exposing WT. There was a talk at some KH that a Brother from Bethel was giving and He puts down his notes and starts talking about how the preaching has been completed. He said “The Society feels that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled” It was kind of creepy. I’m sure this clip will come out soon on other channels as well. But it does seem like a scare tactic to me to control the JW’s from fleeing. Fear is a big tool for WT to control their flock as we all know.

            • sally

              I would like to see the clip, or audio of that for evidence so I hope it does show up. I got the sense from listening to a bit of the dedication talk audio – where they were talking about the new changes, that they are getting…..frustrated and impatient with people who are not towing the line (just receiving mags, having bible studies but not moving forward quickly enough) Almost nasty in a way. I thought the end of preaching would be a sudden thing but it seems they are working up to it for sure.

            • The Raven

              Hi Sally. Do you recall Anderiega mentioning a closing prayer from that assembly on another thread? Have you or anyone else run across that yet? She got the impression the brother was awake to the MOL.

            • sally

              Hi Bro Raven, yes i do recall that comment, I am sure there are lots more awake than we realise though, just watching and waiting for it all to go pear shaped. I haven’t personally met any witnesses that show any sign of being awake, especiallly the elders.

            • The Raven

              I was wondering if anyone found a clip of that prayer.

            • sally

              I don’t know, I wander why it wasn’t included in the audio and was cut out? I have tried to find a copy but can’t.

            • The Raven

              I’ve been wondering about it for a while now. I would really like to hear it. Ah well… Thanks for looking, Sally. I haven’t had any luck either.

            • Craig Knight

              Sally – Here is where to search to find this audio clip – Breaking News- Preaching Work is Done- Annual Meeting News – the audio starts at 4:15 and runs to 9:20

            • Thinking

              Is this the last GMeetimg Craig because I got told they said the preaching work will go on until Armageddon…talk about confusion…
              I really don’t want to listen to,all of the four hours..but perhaps I will have to..lol
              Nice to see you are not confused anymore..( as to Gods house ) actually I find that very encouraging..thank you 🤗

            • Craig Knight

              Hi Thinking! The audio clip was from some KH not a big convention talk. But it was strange all the same. Have you searched for that link? Breaking News- Preaching Work is Done- Annual Meeting News – the audio starts at 4:15 and runs to 9:20. I put in the start and end of the audio file so you don’t have to listen to those two ex witnesses.

              I had to do some thinking on the roles that Christendom, the beast and God’s temple play and there is really no other sensible explanation. God’s temple is always God’s temple. It doesn’t morph in Christendom. That just makes no sense from a scriptural view. 🙂

            • Thinking

              I do remember them saying that some time ago..a long time ago and some brothers and sisters asking how can they say that?….I must have been preety new I think….wasn’t sure what was going on…I’ll try and find that clip..also thankfull you wiped those To ex witnesses out of it…
              Years ago I watched a couple of their videos… but better keep my thoughts to myself on them…lol…

            • Craig Knight

              Yeah it’s sad they let anger destroy any relationship they could have salvaged with God. They are way out there now. It’s so sad to see people go astray completely from Jehovah over how bad men treated them.

            • Thinking

              Absolutely…

            • Observing Quietly

              Craig, you seem to have forgotten that the Tabernacle Moses made for Jehovah morphed into false religion as did the Jewish temple in Jesus’ day also morphed into false religion. Don’t be so complacent as to think this modern day “temple” has not morphed as well.

            • sally

              Thank you Craig yes I have heard it now and your right, its really creepy the way he talks. I also watched the one that was put out after that – that couple’s take on the the Annual Meeting last week….people have been sending in emails and video’s from 2007 from at least 8 different assemblies, where people were so exited as that scripture in Matthew was used then. The exact same speech as last week given by the GB. I haven’t had time to explore it further yet, but it seemed pretty genuine. So it seems for some areas in the US, they thought the GT was upon us 10 years ago.

            • Craig Knight

              Hi Sally! I’m glad you found it. I think that Brother is from Bethel but maybe we will find out more later. I go to that couples site often to check on what the moles in WT have brought forward. But I think they are off course and I don’t like the way He uses Jehovah’s name with disrespect. But they do have good insider information that they get before the congregations get it.

    • Christian Obadiah

      When they proposed construction of a new headquarters, my first thought was: “Why?” If the end is so near, doesn’t the current headquarters suffice?

      The hypocrisy is strong when they continue to remind rank and file JWs ad nauseum to simplify and do more and more in the preaching work.

      • into the light

        That’s exactly what I thought too. But now we also know their reasoning, as per Gerrit Loesch of GB: “It stands to reason Jehovah will protect the physical headquarters”.***

        I’ve heard reasoning that this actually is simplifying on their part as well, as they are replacing multiple properties in NY with this one. Also, it might be safer there than in the city during the GB. There is no shortage of explanations if they need them…

        ***Original comment at this link: http://disq.us/p/1musitf

        • sally

          That is a huge statement for a GB member to make if you think about it – that Jehovah will protect the physical headquarters. If it is taken away from them then it will be a real expose of a lie.

          • into the light

            I know. I don’t know whether this is true as I was quoting previous commenter. At least until we can see the recording of the dedication talk. But it is not surprising in the slightest.
            As per that comment, Samuel Herd of GB also implied that master was delaying…

            Trudy posted a YT link of the leaked audio of annual meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=k0_6GweYEpU, but I haven’t listened to it. I am not sure whether dedication was part of that or separate.

            I try to not focus on all things people say against the org. as it can be very tiring to stay on top of everything, and there are lot of things that people make up as well, whereas focusing on Jesus’ advice is actually refreshing.

            • sally

              I listened to some of the GB talks from the dedication video that Trudy posted, but not all of it. Gerrit Loesch did indeed make that statement. It feels like they do not need Jesus to judge them, as they already have judged themselves and have decided what is going to be happening once Armageddon is over. I didn’t hear the Samual Herd comment but I heard one of them say (can’t remember which one, but the one that made the announcments about the magazines reducing to 3 times per year) about unbaptised ones, needing the elders approval and the elders being able to say “no” he made it like a joke and everybody laughed. I stopped listening at that point.

            • sally

              I do understanding what you are saying about not being completely negative though. Although it is getting harder and harder!! The Apostle Paul did give instructions about building each other up and we really ought to take heed of that advice because it is all too easy to go completely off track with bitterness otherwise.

            • Burt Reynolds

              The issue of the watchtower is a mental contradiction is it not? So is the command to love those who would do you ill, otherwise, as Christ said, ‘of what is the benefit to us of only loving those that love us?’ The true expression of love, is to be steadfast in its principles to all. Well, that is not what we are used to is it….,not our learnt response, so much so that the prospect of loving those that hate us is entirely foreign to our psyche.

              If we include the brothers we once loved in the over-arching principle of hating what is bad, ergo, the watchtower, ( which seems to be what we often do, especially the anti jw sites) then it robs us of the impulse to go and help theses ones. We don’t go searching for these ones as the shepherd does the lost sheep ( but you do, don’t you! ). When hating what is bad, and loving what is good are lumped together under the roof of the watchtower, it is no small wonder we end up arguing about it here.

              What does surprise me is that people are apt to think that now they are safe on shore, that the rest don’t matter, or that the watchtower is not what we thought it was and thus releases us from any further obligation to those still trapped on board the sinking vessel. And what makes that more complex still is that some are to be left on board, but we don’t know who. But that’s the point. Those who are left or saved is not within our perogative to choose, but that of Jehovah. And thus until that day, we are to love them all for if we do not extend them our hand, neither will the hand of God be extended to us.

              In the end analysis, all of this simply illustrates the point that Jehovah’s ways are not the ways of man. Too right!

            • sally

              That is a brilliant post Burt. Much to ponder on when one get’s all hot under the collar and frustrated!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, it is hard to follow principle.

            • into the light

              Well that settles it. Or, as Burt likes to say, this binds them.
              I truly hope they come to realize their error and repent for the sake of the sheep.
              I usually have a hard time watching the videos which feature GB members as it’s really repulsive watching them speak perversions of scripture. That and the smugness…

              Isaiah 28:16-18

        • Christian Obadiah

          Yeah, it is disappointing to hear such ridiculous explanations. The building of the headquarters was an immense undertaking, requiring a huge amount of time invested in planning and management, not to mention the amount of labor and man-power expended. I just don’t get how that is considered ‘simplifying’ when the old headquarters were fine as it was.

          It perplexes me that the GB expects Jehovah to protect the physical headquarters when we cannot even say that individual JWs will be protected. I would much rather have my life as a spoil than any material things of this world. There is so much more potential in the new world.

          • into the light

            Why would we need HQ in the new world anyway if the HQ is in heaven?
            I agree with bro King when he said regarding the matter: “They need to justify their extravagance by imparting some special purpose to the facility in the new world.” That’s why they need such ridiculous explanations. To me it’s disappointing that anyone would fall for them.
            We know well that Jehovah cares about those that have faith in him. If that building proves that it has faith, it might well be saved. 😅

            If you care to look at JW Broadcast for October 2017, there is a lot of talking about workers. There is a segment about volunteers there as well (around 32 min). What caught my attention in that program is that they refer to those volunteers as friends.
            I find those broadcasts bittersweet as they have precious truths mixed with the men’s perversions.
            Pls post your thoughts about it here if decide to watch it.

            I agree about potential in new world. I have spent a good deal of time in meditation about it. I wish I would be found worthy to even just have a peek at it.

        • Burt Reynolds

          The only explanation that I can think of, is that some of the money thrown up by the watchtower sale found its way to other uses. I would expect that plush new living quarters were not the only benefit. It is a business after all and one would expect some form of material benefit from cashing in a property like that. I cannot see an increase in the world wide work, only a contraction.

      • trudy

        Yes this is what I felt when I found out about the Essex one in UK massive build and they said the end is near and we need donations and volunteers .I said to the sister I was studying with I don’t get it if they building this we are near the end and she said we must carry on the preaching work which was not the answer ,divert .

    • trudy

      You know them doing this grand scale stuff ,the peoples are saying Jim Jones on jim jones and cool aid. .
      How are they getting planning permission for all this ..it is hard going and costly .I mean did this really need to happen when they tell us to keep our eyes simple ? Should they be leading .it is total confusion ,I mean I can not be the only one to feel the dug in both directions and I know it must be hard for ones in watchtower waking up to Jehovah’s true message .Thanks Robert for saving the day .I feel much better ,but still lots of jws still in the washing machine ,I try speaking with them but they still spinning ,so I wait for when I can get my iron out and help flatten out some of there creases ..

  • Craig Knight

    The WTC crying wolf for over 100 years has put many JW’s in a semi coma state. I think many will be caught off guard. If Christ’s parousia happened a 100 years ago and Babylon has already fallen, what do the JW’s have to look forward to?

    • into the light

      Right now they are waiting for Christendom to fall. But they are not aware that Christendom will be the one rejoicing, much like Edom when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem.

      • Craig Knight

        WT has 2 different interpretations for Babylon’s fall to just confuse the issue. Christendom supposedly fell in 1914 – 1918 along with pagan religions back then. When supposedly Christ came in 1914. Christendom is a part of Babylon the Great. So WT seems to have it both ways. BTG fell around 100 years ago in 1918 according to WT. But… it still thinks it’s a future event. WT also says that Jesus will come and destroy the wicked at Armageddon. So I guess that’s Jesus 3rd coming since He came in 29 ce, 1914 and again at Armageddon. What a confusing joke!

        • into the light

          Oh I guess you’re not aware of spiritual fulfillment and literal fulfillment. 😆
          It really is confusing. I hope their eyes open once their expectation doesn’t happen. But I think we need to expect the unexpected as well and not go to sleep thinking we know how it will play out.

          • Burt Reynolds

            That’s a new one on me. There is a spiritual and literal fulfilment?

            • into the light

              That’s the explanation I got when I asked about the release from BTG in 1919. Apparently after that release the spiritual fulfillment was that BTG doesn’t have power over god’s people in that they can now perform true worship freely and have no control over them. But then when I ask if they are aware that the release from Babylon is not their voluntary leaving but release by greater Cyrus, that’s where the spirutal comes in…

              I know, it doesn’t make any sense.

            • Truth

              Hi ITL,
              Not only JW”s know and are taught of Tribulation/ Armageddon, so do the following:
              The Exclusive Bretheren,
              7th Day Adventists,
              Islam… they refer to the end times as the, Hour,
              Hinduism,
              Afrikaner Calvinists,
              The Mayans,
              etc.

              The end times are taught in their belief systems.

            • into the light

              Hi Truth, I am aware of this, well mostly. I haven’t heard of Afrikaner Calvinists before. I’m not sure how this is connected to the answer I gave to Burt, though. Could you explain?

            • Truth

              Hey ITL,
              Unfortunately I had to post you on this comment as your original post was on the thread that was closed.

            • into the light

              I’m not sure which thread that was. There were couple of discussions that were closed in the past couple weeks. There is a share button underneath each comment so you can post the link here if you want. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/18fb828153305a0460367a0b66c5315815f0341f9e5a0da49dec5a3112ea146b.jpg

            • The voice

              And Christadelphians

          • Craig Knight

            Yeah that’s good advice! 🙂

        • The Raven

          Hi Craig. If you really want a good laugh look at DA’s comments on this article. He nails it! BTW the article is really good too! lol!
          https://e-watchman.com/e-watchman-versus-the-watchtower/

          • Craig Knight

            Yeah his comments were pretty funny! It’s almost like these writers at WT are 10 years old. It’s ridiculous. No wonder they are not writing as many books and magazines! Maybe they have finally figured out that their prophecies are retarded! 🙂

            • The Raven

              Right now, Golum has the ring and he’s not letting go.

            • Craig Knight

              That’s because Golum is such a slippery fellow! Ha ha!

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          Yes WTS is correct, that Christendom fell in 1914-1919. That is why Russian Orthodox Church banned JW in Russia. What a confusion, what a blindness!!!

        • Burt Reynolds

          Now come on Craig. Don’t be mean! The wtc have to cover all bases. They even wrote a book about it. ‘Make Sure of all Things’. Well, they have.

          • Craig Knight

            Ha ha ha! Just make sure of all things before getting baptized because if you wait till after baptism you can’t safely make sure anymore. Ha ha!

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          Jesus’ 3rd coming? Well wts will make 4th coming may be using blue beam. Lol

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        That’s exactly right!!!

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Scriptures for thought
        Jeremiah 49:7
        For Eʹdom, this is what Jehovah of armies says:
        “Is there no longer any wisdom in Teʹman?
        Has good advice perished from those with understanding?
        Has their wisdom rotted?

        Lamentations 4: 22
        The punishment for your error, O daughter of Zion, has come to its finish.
        He will not carry you off into exile again.
        But he will turn his attention to your error, O daughter of Eʹdom.
        He will uncover your sins.

        Ezekiel 25:12
        “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Eʹdom has acted vengefully against the house of Judah and has incurred great guilt in taking revenge on them;

        Obadiah 1:10-13
        Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob,
        Shame will cover you,
        And you will perish forever.
        11 On the day when you stood off to the side,
        On the day when strangers took his army into captivity,
        When foreigners entered his gate and cast lots+ over Jerusalem,
        You acted like one of them.
        12 You should not gloat over your brother’s day on the day of his misfortune,
        You should not rejoice over the people of Judah on the day of their perishing,
        And you should not speak so arrogantly on the day of their distress.
        13 You should not come into the gate of my people in the day of their disaster,
        You should not gloat over his calamity in the day of his disaster,
        And you should not lay your hands on his wealth in the day of his disaster

        • into the light

          Thank you! This is exactly what Christendom will receive as judgment in the future when Jehovah pours his Judgment on Babylon the Great. I need to check the context of these scriptures because if I remember correctly, Moab and Ammon are also in the play.

          • The Raven

            A song. A melody of Aʹsaph.+
            Psalm
            83 O God, do not be silent;+
            Do not keep quiet* or still, O Divine One.
            2 For look! your enemies are in an uproar;+
            Those who hate you act arrogantly.*
            3 With cunning they secretly plot against your people;
            They conspire against your treasured ones.*
            4 They say: “Come, let us annihilate them as a nation,+
            So that the name of Israel may be remembered no more.”
            5 They devise a unified strategy;*
            They have made an alliance* against you+—
            6 The tents of Eʹdom and the Ishʹma·el·ites, Moʹab+ and the Hagʹrites,+
            7 Geʹbal and Amʹmon+ and Amʹa·lek,
            Phi·lisʹti·a+ together with the inhabitants of Tyre.+
            8 As·syrʹi·a+ too has joined them;
            They give support to* the sons of Lot.+ (Selah)
            9 Do to them as you did to Midʹi·an,+
            As you did to Sisʹe·ra and Jaʹbin at the stream* of Kiʹshon.+
            10 They were annihilated at En-dor;+
            They became manure for the ground.
            11 Make their nobles like Oʹreb and Zeʹeb+
            And their princes* like Zeʹbah and Zal·munʹna,+
            12 For they said: “Let us take possession of the land where God dwells.”
            13 O my God, make them like a whirling thistle,*+
            Like stubble blown about by the wind.
            14 Like a fire that burns up the forest,
            Like a flame that scorches the mountains,+
            15 So may you pursue them with your tempest+
            And terrify them with your windstorm.+
            16 Cover* their faces with dishonor,
            So that they may search for your name, O Jehovah.
            17 May they be put to shame and be terrified forever;
            May they be disgraced and perish;
            18 May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah,+
            You alone are the Most High over all the earth.+

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          Why into the light commented like that means the WTS never acknowledges that WTS will be trampled, that is what into the light’s comment mean. Yes it is true that Christendom along with the rest of Babylon the great will be destroyed, it is then what you quoted scriptures comes true

          • Bklyn Kevin

            Yes that’s how I understand that matter.
            The Watchtower may not acknowledge the fact that they will be judged first but nonetheless the scriptures make it plain that they will be judged and first.

            For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good.
            1 First of Peter 4:17-19. Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-peter/4/

        • Burt Reynolds

          Is Obadiah speaking of the exclusivity Jehovah retains for the destruction of his temple, in that making his name and judgement known is his perogative alone? ‘ And they will have to know that I am Jehovah!’

          • Bklyn Kevin

            In a nutshell yes however there’s a lot more to discern.

            Jehovah’s Witnesses and the city of Jerusalem.
            Excerpt:
            The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses has resulted in the name of God being declared to the ends of the earth, in hundreds of languages and dialects. The stage is now set for the nations to be made to know that he is Jehovah, as it foretells in Ezekiel in many places, as well as other prophecies. (Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves must also be made to know that he is Jehovah – the God of judgment.)

            Furthermore, the Watchtower Society may be properly identifiable as the prophetic “Jerusalem,” the place where Jehovah has caused his name to reside in the modern world – the earthly city of Jehovah. It is this “Jerusalem” – the Watchtower Society – not Christendom, which is destined to come under Jehovah’s judgment “in the final part of the days.”Read more>
            https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-and-jerusalem/

            Read a lot more>
            Search results for: And they will have to know that I am Jehovah!’
            https://e-watchman.com/?s=And+they+will+have+to+know+that+I+am+Jehovah%21%27

    • The Raven

      Having all those illusions and delusions shattered and exposed when war breaks out and the watchtower falls.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Disappointment?

    • Jamie Mac

      Another overlapping , overlapping generation

      • Burt Reynolds

        Doubtless they will introduce ‘Adamic’ generations. This is clearly what was meant as the Adamic generation spanned a good two thousand years, if my mathematics serves me right, as as the Nephalim were also alive and the satanic angels dematerialised at the time of the flood, they were also part of those generations’s’s’s’ and have yet to die off and won’t until a thousand years after the tribulation. This will certainly set the watchtower back on course with two Tribulation’s rolled into one with a built in fail-safe. I expect to get my invitation to join the governing body as soon as they read this.

  • Sharon

    during the time of the flood some of the Nephilim or some sort of race was put under the Antarctic,these ones have recently been visited by john Kerry,the Russian krill, and lets not forget buzz Aldrich,he definitely saw more than he bargained for,thats a given.and now according to steve quale,and greg everson,they are awakening.dont bother with any comments like ive lost my mind or don’t know what I’m talking about,because the giants are returning.these 2 men have some of the deepest security clearance info available on the planet.plua Hollywood has been conditioning us for their return,along with vampires.oh and lets not forget about project bluebeam,according to dr. steven greer its a go.

    • into the light
    • Burt Reynolds

      Too right, Sharon. My work often took me to area 41 and I’ve seen the evidence. I’m surprised you have clearance to say these things publically.

    • Sam Knight

      Very interesting Sharon but doesn’t that contradict what the bible says on the matter? Genesis is very clear that only eight souls survived the flood.
      The rebellious angels who created the nephilim are held in a spititual prison named tartarus since they dematerialised. And the nephilim drowned.
      So are you saying that tartarus is Antarctica? If so then perhaps those angelic prisoners have been at it again after they were allowed conjugal visits.

      • Sharon

        sam I don’t know where they went,or how some survived the flood,but they certainly did,we know that because just during the time of moses,and Joshua alone,it speaks about the raphium,sorry about the spelling. Goliath was a giant.I know its hard to comprehend,but Greg says these ones were in a stasis condition,and they are starting to wake up.theirs more to the antartic then meets the eye.take a look on utube and see some of the events that took place there during war time to hitlers men.there were craft coming up out of the water .keep in mind sam this is stuff the government has kept hidden from the people. they of course believe they were dealing with ufos and aliens,but we know different,they were demons. many are saying the gov. is definitely going to go with project bluebeam in the future.

        • Sam Knight

          Perhaps Sharon they have found frozen remains of nephilim as there has been many findings of giant skeletons in other parts of the world. The Smithsonian institute is accused of hiding these remains.
          To say that nephilim survived is surely to contradict the bible. Or that Jehovah was rather incompetent when He flooded the planet.

        • then Jehovah failed at removing all wicked people off the earth by his flood. nobody survived. being 10 extra feet tall would not have helped

          • Sharon

            you better start reading your bible brother if you don’t know that some survived the flood.and well you know what,im not going to tell you where the scriptures speak of them again.jehovahs witnesses claim to know their bible like no other individual in Christendom,what a joke

            • what defines Babylon is she is a Harlot but “Who is as blind as my own people, my servant? Who is as deaf as my messenger? Who is as blind as my chosen people, the servant of Jehovah?”

            • into the light

              What prevented them to take the earth over and become men of renown again as they did before the flood???

              What you’re saying is that a few instances of giants is a proof that nephilim survived?

              We know that after removing of the water canopy during the flood earth started to be exposed to cosmic rays and radiation as the layer that protected it flooded the earth. Our genetics and lifespans started a downward spiral at that time. So a few giants might as well have been genetic mutations. We have some of those giants even today, and medicine has proved that those are mutations.

      • Sharon

        sam it doesnot contradict gods word,it clearly says genesis 6:3-4-there were giants on the earth in those days,and also AFTER THAT

        • Sam Knight

          That’s true Sharon. I researched all of this a few years ago. Various theories I read suggested that there was another angelic rebellion after the flood. Or that one of Noahs sons wives had been contaminated. But dont you think that would make God look rather foolish?
          Perhaps Moses was telling us “after that” as in after the point in pre deluvian history that he was seeing to another point in pre deluvian history possibly a thousand years later?
          Let’s remember this time scale would have been approx 1500 years.

          • into the light

            In those days, referring to that point in time which was just mentioned, and after those days that were juut mentioned, but before the flood. It’s not really that hard to grasp.

            • Sam Knight

              In fairness the wording can be a little confusing to somebody especially after they’ve had the idea planted in their head.

            • into the light

              True, but still. In this instance it would make god a liar. And we know that it’s impossible for god to lie.

            • Sam Knight

              Good! So no 10ft freaks running the streets beating people up to worry about.

            • sally

              No just 5ft or 6ft ones!

            • Jamie Mac

              and getting younger………

            • Richard Long

              One challenge we today are faced with is reconciling the precious little surviving scripture has to say with archaeology. As Sam has alluded to, the Smithsonian under Powell vigorously engaged in acquisition and suppression of all evidence of pre-columbian advanced culture in the America’s to facilitate the advancement of the manifest destiny doctrine. That culture most certainly featured royalty of extraordinary physical stature. Nephilim? Hard to say. Were the Raphiam, Nephilem? Here’s one consideration:

              http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/rephaim/

              and another:

              https://www.gotquestions.org/Rephaim.html

              I own a copy of this book and recommend it for anyone interested in the subject of post-diluvian occurrences of giants, particularly in The Americas. It is largely a compilation of actual newspaper clippings.

              http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20-%20The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America.pdf

              I say post-diluvian because these remains are found undisturbed, often posed, in caves and earthen mounds in hundreds of locations throughout North and South America. (the book focuses on North)

            • into the light

              Are you implying that they might have survived? I am aware of giants after the flood. With me it is an issue of trusting that god knew what he was doing. And the conclusion is definite. As for human reasoning, it always comes down to “not sure, but…” or “hard to say, but…” Which basically opens a way for you to distract yourself to no end.
              I also remember reading about how they found a cave somewhere in the US with skeletal remains of giants. Red haired if remember correctly. It was long time ago so I can’t remember the details. It might be the same thing you’re talking about.

            • Richard Long

              No. Not unless the rebellious angels designed them with gills. God’s word says he exterminated the Nephilim and that’s that for me.

              When we assume no Nephilim DNA came through the flood through any of the eight, we are not exactly trusting God’s word or that He knew what He was doing, but more likely projecting an expectation based on our (mis)understanding of what Jehovah required to ensure the purity of Messiah’s bloodline.

              What is fact is He exterminated the offspring of materialized angels and prevented any more from being conceived.

              DNA is now understood to be universal. There is no dog or ape or human DNA, only DNA configured to form dog or ape or human. Essentially, a binary system of switches turned on or off, sometimes in combination. My assumption is the rebellious angels did not produce Nephilim by accident, but by DNA manipulation in the design of their own bodies.

              We have reports of humans born (rarely) today with 24 digits and two rows of teeth. These are said to be traits unique to the antediluvian Nephilim so that’s why “hard to say”. I just don’t know enough to say, only enough to be distracted to no end. I recognize all of this is irrelevant to salvation.

              Yes, that book will describe exactly what you have. Also of note are the journals of Meriwether Lewis recording encounters with red-haired, white skinned natives in the upper Mississippi and/or Missouri regions that spoke a tongue almost recognizable by a Welsh.

              https://www.amazon.com/Suppressed-History-America-Meriwether-Discoveries/dp/1591431220

              So, no this information is not important other than to more deeply understand the fullest meaning of the phrase “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”. To few of us truly do and all should.

            • into the light

              Interesting point about the dna which I agree with to the extent that it’s a universal system. It is basically a programming language. And a programming lang. can be used to code different operating systems. But it’s not as simple as you suggest. If the fallen angels configured their bodies to produce the Nephilim it means that they were deliberately designed that way. If we could just randomly arrive to that mutation, that opens the posibility that evolution as taught by science today is actually possible.

              Unless there were that kind of giants in existence before angels materialized and they tweaked their bodies to produce exclusively offspring with that mutation. But we have to remember that chances for that were much smaller (if any) as the earth had a protective canopy which prevented the cosmic radiation to penetrate. I’m not that educated in the subject so these are only my logical conclusions.

            • Richard Long

              I did simplify it for audience, and the fact that’s about as deeply as I understand it. I surmise they had the skill and ability to design bodies for themselves that would produce the hybrid of their choosing to suit their purpose – presumably the extinction of the human race that would produce the promised seed. They were most certainly breeding humans out of existence and it is suggested by many scholars that the Nephilim might actually have been using pure humans for food.

              Also, unlike hybridization we see in animal husbandry with Father’s creation. I can see no barrier save the hand of God to the materialized fallen’s ability to produce hybrid offspring capable of procreation themselves.

              If the angels are not already made of DNA, which I assume, perhaps they were capable of converting it (matter) from energy as they had perhaps seen or helped the Word do in previous works of creation. I do not think they possessed humans, as the scripture says they “made bodies for themselves”.

              Now we’re REALLY distracted! lol

            • into the light

              Did they have the destruction of humans as their purpose, in order to prevent the seed from coming? The bible says that they lusted for women. Nephilim were a result of that unnatural union. The meaning of Nephilim, which means fellers, suggests that they corrupted the humans to the point where god needed to take action. Scholars and oral traditions are only speculating with their theories on how they looked and whether they ate humans or whatever else they are saying. If there were the remains ,which they could study and conclude based on their DNA the specifics about them, it probably would be either top secret that only handful of people know, or it would be in the open. Not in this gray area in which fantasies abound. If they were that important to the storyline there would probably be more scriptures about them, and not just that one instance in Genesis.

            • Richard Long

              I don’t think they are important to the story line in the least.

              Intent vs effect? The were taking all the women they wanted and treating them as incubators, depriving human men of mates. I think effect reveals intent. Unless we think they we’re just out on a bender when they should have been performing their heavenly duties. Slacker angels?

              One does have to peruse the apocrypha to find the account of the actual conspiracy, so I will not submit that as evidence, but am ok with letting you know it informs my thinking so you are not abuse to thinking I am reasoning from Canonical scripture.

            • into the light

              Not sure what purpose apocrypha has except to prove that human traditions are blown out of the water by scripture. They are basically human traditions and invented stories that mostly (afaik) came into existence during Babylonian exile and later. I don’t have a reason to pay any attention to them as they are irrelevant in our Christian faith.

              edit: I did read a book of Tobit in order to understand the reasoning of someone I had a discussion with.

            • Richard Long

              Exactly! Distraction that may or may not help explain concepts with absolutely NO bearing on salvation, which only requires a handful of scripture, and certainly to religious order to recieve!

            • Sam Knight

              Interesting. I found the book of Enoch to be wildly out of sync with the other Hebrew books. To be honest I quit after a few chapters and just scanned the rest. It seemed to dwell a lot on hellfire and the afterlife. My guess is that its writer was heavily under greek pagan influence or that it was intended as a jewish Sci-fi entertainment for the day lol. I know you’re not promoting it’s writings but would you trust it for anything? After all the writer of this non inspired book would have no better knowledge of antediluvian history than us today.

            • into the light

              Interesting thing about book of Enoch is that one of bible writers, Jude, was possibly quoting from it. Jude 9, 14,5

              Whether Jude received this information through direct revelation or by reliable transmission (either oral or written) is not known. If the latter was the case, this may explain the presence of a similar reference to Enoch’s prophesying in the apocryphal book of Enoch (thought to have been written probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E.). A common source could have furnished the basis for the statement in the inspired letter as well as in the apocryphal book.

              Source

            • Sam Knight

              That is interesting. I’d like to think Jude was directly inspired to write that. Because if he was quoting from the book that promotes misinterpretations of sheol then we’d have a problem with out theology. What’s your opinion? Do you think there’s more to it?

            • into the light

              I think there’s probably more to it. Enoch was a real person and he was a god’s prophet. Moses wrote about him.
              We know that a lot of prophecy was orally transmitted with Jews so the prophecy part could have been available to both Jude and the book of Enoch writer. Also there is a possibility that some other scriptures which could have contained those words were lost.
              In any case, as an apostle I doubt he would endorse uninspired books by quoting from them, just look at the rest of the chapter and it will make itself clear.

              If the writer of the Book of Enoch had access to an ancient source of this kind, why should we deny it to Jude?

              Anyway, here’s the source if you care to read: Does the Bible Quote From the Book of Enoch?

            • Sam Knight

              Its my opinion brother.. That all scripture is inspired of God. It is very important to our God that it is preserved and transmitted to all. It is my belief and conviction that no inspired teaching has been lost.
              And any person that say so is the one that is lost.
              I trust in the true God Jehovah that He is indeed capable of defending his own inspired writings.

            • into the light

              I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I made a mistake when I said that scripture was lost, when I meant the source, or scroll or whatever medium contained it. The important part is that, like you say, the teaching is preserved, which it was. Sorry for confusion, bro. 😌

            • Bklyn Kevin

              There are also, in fact, many other things that Jesus did, which if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose the world itself could not contain the scrolls written John 21:24.
              To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.John 20:30, 31

            • Richard Long

              This I know. What is with those half-brothers of Jesus, looking at all that apostate literature???😎

            • Sam Knight

              Haha

            • Richard Long

              I absolutely would not trust it for anything. For anyone even remotely resembling those coming to Christ as a little child, just John’s gospel should be all one needs.

            • Sam Knight

              Thanks for the link to that book Richard. Looks great.

            • Richard Long

              Unless you’re American. Then it looks terrifying to have proof of what your government is capable of! O.o

            • Sam Knight
            • Richard Long

              Forgot to say “you’re welcome”, so….

        • Thinking

          It all depends how you read the after that..so many claim what you say based on those two words…yet if you read the context..you can see it was talking about Angels taking wives for themselves and the Nephilim were on the earth at that time..and after that..meaning after they took their wives and the nephilm lived for some time after they were born and on untill the flood…after that just signifies ..the continued to live on for some time…UNTIL THE FLOOD.
          I understand the confusion as I had it all so…but other scriptures show that the fallen angels were in a spiritual prison called tasarus…
          No Nephilim survived ..and nor did any of their seed survive in ham as is written by many…
          This is where reasoning power must be used and the whole purpose of the flood..
          The ark is supposed to represent Christ…and when Jehovah found Noah righteous…other faiths have commented that his righteousness meant he was also clean from any seed contamimarion from the fallen angels…
          As was his wife…
          It is an insult to the greatness of Jehovah to beleive he would allow any seed to contaminate the Ark/Christ ..and survive into the new world he would make for mankind..
          It would mean he would let some form of bad demonic corruption survive into his New earth after Armageddon. ..
          This is not how Jehovah works..it is not his way…
          You are believing a delusion that has been born by the demons and now is a rampart belief among many..
          It is of the highest insult to our Almighty God..and his power…and his Justice…

          • Sam Knight

            I agree Thinking.. “t is a teaching of the demons to promote a false beleif that they were stronger and cleverer than Jehovah at that time..”
            And i would agree the overall plot is to at some point so confuse the masses through the entertainment industry as to actually utter something astonishing like that “Jehovah is the Satan” and that “Satan was trying to help us against this cruel God”. I have already encountered such thinking and I am simply sharing this so that it does not shock you when you encounter it.
            This is personal thinking that is open to scrutiny.
            But it’s good to be prepared for such potentials.

            • Thinking

              Thanks Sam. I have already encountered it. Sigh 😞…..it certainly makes one heavy of heart… to be honest …if I had foreseen the battle to stand for what is right .. for Jehovah. And even amongst ones who were of our own kind. I really would never have gone down this road ….so in my case I guess ignorance Has worked for my good…thanks again for your response

  • trudy

    Putting here because this maybe important info ..Watchtower changing its status ,Can someone take a look at this form 15 ..Thanks
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWM2zTCYHF0

    • Burt Reynolds

      Yes, I saw that form 15 too. It has to do with finance of some sort, either bankruptcy or to cease trading, but I understand it may also be nothing. I don’t know about it, but I understand black curtain may.

  • Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah. That is my name;

    Isaiah 42:8
    I am Jehovah. That is my name;I give my glory to no one else,Nor my praise to graven images.

    Jeremiah 44:26
    “Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, all you of Judah who are living in the land of Egypt: ‘“Here I swear by my own great name,” says Jehovah, “that my name will no longer be called on in an oath by any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt who says, ‘As surely as the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is alive!’

    Psalm 25:11
    For the sake of your name, O Jehovah,Forgive my error, though it is great.

    2 Chronicles 33:4
    He also built altars in the house of Jehovah, about which Jehovah had said: “In Jerusalem my name will be forever.”
    https://www.facebook.com/TheWatchmansPost/videos/1911241745861440/

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5U7zuu_IQk

    Isaiah 42:8
    I am Jehovah. That is my name;I give my glory to no one else,Nor my praise to graven images.

    Jeremiah 44:26
    “Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, all you of Judah who are living in the land of Egypt: ‘“Here I swear by my own great name,” says Jehovah, “that my name will no longer be called on in an oath by any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt who says, ‘As surely as the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is alive!’

    Psalm 25:11
    For the sake of your name, O Jehovah,Forgive my error, though it is great.

  • Sharon

    brother Robert,good article,BUT from the comments I have received from your readers,I think you need to inform them as to why of all the scenerios Jesus spoke of the days of noah,and what we might expect in the future.I know you know these things because of other comments you have made,even your recent video on the eye of horus.Just maybe it would be a good idea to speak about project bluebeam,because I assure you they are going to try and pull this off.I can understand Jehovahs Witnesses being deceived,but theres no reason for your readers to be.Thank-You

    • into the light

      What other scenarios where god destroyed the world could he use?
      People of the time were not paying attention to Noah’s warnings and considered him a lunatic. Same will happen again, that’s why Jesus used Noah’s days as a parallel. There was no hidden meaning behind it.

      Project Blue Beam is a conspiracy theory that claims that NASA is attempting to implement a New Age religion with the Antichrist at its head and start a New World Order, via a technologically-simulated Second Coming.

      The only way they could do this is if they did it locally and then televise it around the world. This way you’d get “eyewitnesses” to the event and then it would spread from there. But as it usually is, those things get debunked.

      On the other hand, “just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be”.

      As Christians we know that Satan is deceiving the world, and as we get closer to our lord’s day, he will have to up his game in order to thoroughly deceive people.

      • Sharon

        well its certainly working brother,if you think the new world order is a hoax scenario,and project bluebeam is a conspiracy theory,I REST MY CASE.brother Robert has a lot of work to do.PLEASE don’t be like the jws sitting in the kingdom halls.do your research brother.

        • into the light

          So do you actually believe Jesus or do you believe people?
          You rest your case as if you had a case. What are you trying to prove? You’re basically giving credibility to hearsay, whereas we have gotten the true message directly from god about how events will play out, and actually we have those prophecies being fulfilled in front of our eyes.

          • Sharon

            this is the last time I will respond to you because you brother have now called into question weather I believe Jesus Christ or man.I believe every single word contained in gods word the bible. so brother if you want to believe that Jesus just wanted us to know that the people in noahs time were just eating and drinking,and getting married,go right ahead.I do have a case,believe me I do.if you don’t want to believe me that’s fine,continue on in your ignorance.DO YOUR RESEARCH.You and others like you are the reason I just read the articles and don’t comment.wake up brother.

            • into the light

              I am no judge of someone’s faith. The reason why I asked that is because you seem to accept opposing ideas. And so far have provided no answer to which other scenarios Jesus could have used. When Jesus said eating and drinking he meant people were going about in ther lives as usual. Doing ordinary things. Doing everyday things. Paying no attention. What orher explanation might there be for it? Could you explain what he meant?

            • Thinking

              But you are commenting

            • Sharon

              the only thing you got right here was about the seed contamination.it was satans plan after hearing gen 3:15 to thwart that plan,and contaminate the seed in which our messiah would come through. of course noah and his family were not,thats the reason they were chosen.but most of the animals,plants etc. were ,thus the reason for having to destroy the whole earth.and your thinking on after that is delusional.the first account of the raphaim after the flood is gen14,then in numbers 13:30-33,oh and lets not forget king og of bashon,oh he was a tiny guy 9cubits/4cubits,13/6,i will tell you what I told the others stop talking and do the darn research.jesus warned over and over about deception.anyhow the proof is in the pudding as they say,these giants are waking up now,we are going to be hearing very soon of new life forms being found,alot about mars,and like I said to everyone else project bluebeam.no more comments I will not respond to you again

            • Richard Long

              Sharon, I think the difficulty some may have in just letting you own your own words is they speak outside zones of comfort we may rely on just to cope. I agree you have been disrespected, but also hope you will reconsider your “no more response” policy, in so much as we all have to be ready to make a defense for what we have said. Your opinion and commentary have value to me whether I agree with you or not.

            • sally

              Richard I can assure you I am having no difficulty in letting Sharon or anyone else speak their own words. I am also very comfortable and completely in the zone. No one has disrespected Sharon (I have read all the comments including my own). If someone does not like the responses they are getting, that does not mean they are disrespected unless its done is a disrespectful way. No one laughed it off, no one put her down. No one was aggressive. I do not know why you say those things but please stop it.

            • Sam Knight

              Its nice to be polite. I’m not a fan of political correctness which pushes an agenda either. But when somebody expresses a deeply held belief and you belittle them for it. The chances are that they will reject the truth because you presented it to them in a way that insulted their intelligence. I do however love the fact that you are aware of this.

            • The Raven

              I too am aware of the fact that Sally was being straightforward and not insulting.

            • Sam Knight

              Yeah I agree. Sharon presented an argument or a debatable subject. It is therefore common sense and logic that the argument should be debated/argued.
              And that is what was done.
              But from what i can see..
              People are actually arguing about how hurt Sharon’s feelings are that the nephilim aren’t actually among us and that they have been freezing their ballocks off the whole time in Antarctica.

            • Sam Knight

              PC has infiltrated JWs

            • The Raven

              Lol! Ok that made me chuckle! Now I’m probably going to get scolded by the marm for it! Hahaha!

            • sally

              Haha that made me laugh to. Considering what terrible atrocities they committed when on earth….I hope they have been lying there in ice freezing their ballocks off!

            • Richard Long

              Sally, if I had been speaking of you, then your rebuke might be appropriate. While I was being general as in “some may” rather than more specific, as in “some here may”, your assumption of the mantle requires I draw your attention to the fact that Sharon’s original post on this topic was directed specifically to Robert, we’re ALL out of bounds. Secondly, there is a history of Sharon being howled down for her expressions on other topics and it is in this context my comment is most appropriate. Do I need to copy and paste the who said what here or should I just let it go?

            • into the light

              She basically appealed to brother King to inform us how we are all thinking wrong and that she is right without presenting any facts. The only argument she uses is “do your research”.

            • The Raven

              Sally, I looked at everything you stated and nowhere do I see you belittling anyone. I know you replied because you were one of those who replied to her. So did several others. You’re right just because some folks don’t like someone else’s opinion on a matter doesn’t mean they are being ridiculed but …they will see it that way. Don’t worry with it.

        • into the light

          Also, could you tell me of even ONE of those scenarios that Jesus could’ve used instead of Noah’s days?

        • sally

          Sharon, I don’t know enough about all the project bluebeam stuff that is spoken of but I have heard about it. My question is this. What does it matter? the world is full of lies and deciept, wars, corruption, manipulation, secret plans and non secret plans by the elites and governments that run the world. And we know how it is going to end. So what is so amazing about this particular subject in the greater scheme of things? surely we ought to be putting our focus on seeking the truth of Jesus returning and understanding what is expected of us when he comes to judge? after all that is the life saving information, not some scientists trying to ressurect a possible Nephilm found preserved in an ice cube in antartica (if that is what they reckon).

          • Sharon

            first off sally,its not one nephilum that lies under the ice in the antartic,and the reason I believe its very important to know all that is going on is because it is what jesus warns us about,do not be deceived,the deception we are told from gods word will be so great,that even the very elect will be deceived.everything,and I mean everything we have been taught to believe in this world is a lie. I don’t know what you mean seeking the truth of Jesus returning-hes returning,ie:2nd coming of Jesus Christ,its not a secret,and it didn’t happen in 1914 as all jws believe.just this sentence alone should tell you why deception is so dangerous,i believed that lie for over 40yrs,now that’s deception.and as to understand what Jehovah God,and his son expect of me,thats simple,Micah6:8.

            • sally

              Yes your right Sharon the deception would be so great even the elect would be decieved. Then you said it!! 1914. That is the deception. Saying Jesus had returned when he had not. How bigger deception do you get than that? I am sorry that you did not understand what I meant about seeking the truth of Jesus returning. Maybe I did not put it very well. What I meant is, THAT should be our focus and understanding the principles in Gods’ word, the Bible that are written to advise and guide us in what we should be striving to be as people, these should be our focus, we know its dire out there in the world, even the average athiest would agree with that. And some of us know that it is not to good in the organisation either due to the deception, so even more reason to focus on what really matters. If you know truth, no nephilim can deceive you whether they are dead, alive or projected to look alive. It doesn’t matter really.

          • Burt Reynolds

            If there was a past sell by date Nephalim under the ice in Antarctica, with any preserved DNA in it, the chances of replicating such would be remote in the extreme because it, I would assume, be unnatural. Not only that, with several hundred tons of ice on him for a few years I’m not sure there is going to be a lot of him to work on. The result of the union was unnatural and thus the DNA will be too. I’m not sure that it would be something Jehovah would permit anyway. As for blue beam, that is simply light technology ( of the sort used at 9/11 if you want to listen to the theorists. It was quiet feasible. We have all seen holography ). The only thing that is certain, is that those who allow themselves to be distracted will have to abide by the consequences as you rightly point out. Jesus will make himself known to his people. What’s the point of his coming visibly if no one is going to know it’s him!? All this trial and suffering and he’s going to be mistaken for someone else? Only those who are not aware of his voice…..or too busy with dehydrated squashed Nephalim just out of the freezer.

            • Sam Knight

              Must say I’m loving the educated comments in here. Makes a refreshing change from the other hangouts I’ve dropped into.
              Super stuff!

            • Thinking

              Satan was never blessed with the power to recreate …ressurect…or even procreate…( by himself ) he needed a woman to create a mutated form of a living being…-and he had to form himself into a lesser being to do that..
              It is not possible for him to put life back into these frozen children of his…
              It never has been otherwise he would have done it straight after the flood..all this is a demonic lie…..to say he has power beyond what has been given to him.
              Indeed I have definetly done the research In To all this…I get weary of the accusations from some who think we are so naive or stupid or lack interest ..and do not research such things …I was a big conspiracy buff….probably still am to a degree…
              Yet if you really really really love truth…one can see thru these satanic demonic teachings that are a great delusion in themselves….

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely. Though I think the argument was that man was trying to recreate this being. Not Satan. It’s just not going to happen as you say. Satan and his demons are barred from anything of the like.

      • Richard Long

        Actually, ITL, what we KNOW, is that “the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one”. When one becomes Christian, it is from this wretched state of already having been thoroughly deceived that one must have the help of holy spirit to become extricated. And since all organized “Christianity” has had the sum effect of moving persons from one state of delusion to another, usually while picking their pockets I might add, I’d say Satan has plenty of mad skills game already. Further, I’d have no problem labeling the record of his game as “conspiracy history”. Satan’s MO: whatever lie works.

        • into the light

          I don’t think what you said differs from what I said much. Yours was more coherent I’ll give you that. 😊 But I want to clarify that when I say conspiracy theory, I mean theory. You know, that out-there stuff like nephilim under Antarctica. Or Rotschilds are reptilian shape-shifters who control the world. Ok those are extreme cases but you know what I mean.

          • Richard Long

            It is fair to say some of the more bizarre “reports” test the patience of a scripture trained conscience. On the other hand, when shown evidence, disbelief is likely no less foolish as belief. Over time, my fallback position has become to accept on face value, then attempt to understand just *how* the demons are involved.

            *Something* is most definitely going on at Antarctica – just what TBD.

            I, for one, DO believe certain members of the Rothschild’s dynasty are demon-possessed and control the world, if only by their own standard “give me control of a nation’s currency and I care not who makes its laws”. It makes perfect sense to allow their “reputation” to precede them as a major component to their master’s conspiracy to separate humans from our Father.

            Think on this: If there were only 100 billion angels and only 1/3 rebelled, the demons would still have us outnumbered over 3 to 1 TODAY! Can we really think of the Nephilim as an occurrence localized to Mesopotamia?

            Blessings, RL

            • into the light

              I personally don’t have patience for those “reports” because they are speculations for the most part. Just because “something” is going on somewhere, letting your imagination run the show is not really a credible way to present those things. And most of those theorists do just that. And they repeat it continuously until people start just accepting it as a fact. And most people are just willing to accept unreasonable things because they appeal to their emotions.
              I agree that Rotschilds for example are major players in the world scene, because, yes they are rich and influential and have been a part of the elite for past few generations, but they are by no means THE ones who control the world, because there are also other rich ones or the ones ascending to that position who try to do the same as them… They are just part of the picture.
              People who believe those theories are like the ones that see a painting of Mona Lisa for example and they only focus on the smile and spend their time analyzing what it means: is it a smile or a smirk or is it her resting face or this or that, as if there is some hidden meaning to it…. all the while they are missing the rest of the picture and how beautiful it is.

              I agree that there is a conspiracy to create a government that would rule the world, but that’s not a theory, and that has been satan’s goal from the beginning. We don’t need to focus on the players and invent stories to support the notion that it will happen or how it will happen. Scriptures tell us exactly how it will come about. And as Craig mentioned in one of his posts, we have 3 major players on the scene in the end: The beast, the harlot and the temple.

              Not sure what you mean by 1/3 of demons rebelling. Does it matter how many of theme there are? Nephilim were the offspring of materialized demons. When that rebellion occurred humanity was pretty young and probably didn’t even have a chance to spread outside of that part of earth too much. The population of the earth couldn’t be that great. Also the the continents as we have them today weren’t the same at that time. I thing that the great flood had shifted the earth’s crust in a major way. So yeah, there might be skeletons of them all over the place… but what does that prove?

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              It proves that Noah’s incident is true.

      • Sam Knight

        Hi guys. Just a question.
        In the antediluvian period would it be possible that the rebellious angels could have travelled to other planets? Is it possible that they could actually have carried out construction work on Mars for example? I know this sounds like a crazy question but just curious if it could be disproven either logically or from the bible. Thankyou.

        • into the light

          I don’t think that it is relevant to anything in the bible. There is nothing there that could point to it. We could speculate but what are we hoping to conclude from it?

          • Sam Knight

            Just want to know if it’s visible ITL

            • Sam Knight

              And the reason as to why i want to know if it’s viable is so that If the situation is to appear that there has in fact been proven that there has been proof of intelligent life on Mars. Then a man of the book can explain it. There are many eventualities that could appear. I’d hate for someone to believe a lie.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I look at these stories about extra-terrestrials but none of them seem to hold any water. Every picture is blurred and if there had been anything, it would have found a way out. I think that it says more about photoshop than it does about evidence! But for me, the most convincing evidence is that the demons seem to have, at the time of the flood, returned to the heavenly realm somewhat against their will, and from whence we hope they will be dispatched in the near future. They were also stopped from materialising again too. So, As for building, why would spirits need dwelling places? The bible indicates that we are of the first creation….’in the beginning….’ and that does tend to rule out little green men etc,….though I suspect we all had our suspicions about Tony Blair .

          • Sam Knight

            Thanks Burt. I’m not suggesting that tartarus is on Mars as I believe it’s in the spiritual dimension. I’m examining if it’s possible that they could have actually materialized there to build pyramids before the flood on earth occurred.

          • Sam Knight

            After all if I am to believe that angels could leave their spiritual dimension and materialize on Earth. Then surely it would be fair to believe they could materialize anywhere they wanted in the physical universe? So with that in mind i would love it if you could prove for me logically or from the bible that the rebel angels have actually been up to no good on Mars. (Lack of mars bars wrappers is not proof that they havent)
            (I mean come on! The planet looks like it got nuked stupid)

            • into the light

              Problem with that is that in the known universe only Earth is habitable and supports life. Once this issue we’re having on earth is resolved there might be more creation elsewhere in the universe.

            • Sam Knight

              Yes ITL eye has not seen and ear has heard the things that Jehovah has in store for those that love him. What a fantastic opportunity. Its truelly an amazing futur that awaits. But in the meantime id like to dig up what exactly happened in our past and be prepared for the future.

            • Sam Knight

              Yes but we need to be sure of what Mars alignment was at the time. My findings suggest that they shifted.

            • into the light

              I’m not sure what you mean by “they shifted”. And are you talking about Mars’ alignment relative to Earth? I’m trying to understand what you’re suggesting with that.
              The bible is clearly speaking about events on Earth. Everything that concerns matters outside of it is in the spirit realm and has been spoken to us in symbolic terms.

            • Sam Knight

              I am suggesting that mars was once very close to us. It appeared as a God to our ancestors yes.

            • into the light

              I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. Because if mars was closer it’s gravitational pull would interfere with Earth’s and the life supporting conditions we have now wouldn’t be possible. Our ancestors were aware of Sun, Moon, and the 5 brightest stars which they could observe, and they named them after their gods.

            • Sam Knight

              Electric universe
              https://youtu.be/IW6ss_sQNvE

            • into the light

              Oh, another theory. The one that is basically at odds with everything that is understood so far by science. I’m not very knowledgeable about it, but I can assure you that if you’re seeking understanding of god’s word, you won’t find it in those pseudo-scientific circles. You’ll find it in his word. Unless it’s something else you’re looking for.

            • Sam Knight

              Only time will tell. And it is worth mentioning that i came across this from a scientist JW.

            • into the light

              Ok, fair enough. We don’t know how much we don’t know.
              But still, some things are measurable and are understood, so when you come up with something that tries to refute what’s already proven without something to support it, then it ceases to be credible. And the scientist JW doesn’t make it any more credible than scientist Mormon.

            • Sam Knight

              When a scientist suddenly refutes his prior beliefs and embraces the word of God whilst rethinking his scientific theories then i believe he might actually be on to something.

            • into the light

              True, but it doesn’t make it so without proof. I am open to hearing new things. There are facts and theories. Facts stand as they have been proven to be facts. Theories on the other hand stay theories until there is enough proof for it to be considered facts. I understand that old theories are replaced with new ones and so on.

            • Sam Knight

              Alright ITL, thanks for arguing with me. Enjoyed that. Agape and out!

            • into the light

              Hey Sam, not arguing, sorry if it came across like that. I apologize.
              Agape to you too, brother!

            • Sam Knight

              No no no! Arguing is good when done in a constructive manner! It is a necessity! Which is why I Thank you. Don’t fall prey to PC crap. Imagine a world where you can’t politely tell someone that the trinity is a load of ballocks? What sheol is? Or what happens when you put your head in fire?

            • Song of Hannah

              That’s awesome to hear Sam! 👍🏼

            • into the light

              Hey Sam since you are exploring that subject, here is an interesting comment I read. It might complement what you’re talking about. It kinda makes sense to me.

              The Universe is not Electric, it is SONIC. Sonic Energy is expressed intelligence, expressed as Mathematical Musical notes: all other forms of Energy including Electricity and Light are variations of Sound waves which can be seen as Electricity or Light or Magnetism or Gravity or even Audible Sound or any other form of Energy depending on where they fall on the Energy Spectrum. The Energy Spectrum is incorrectly identified as ELECTRO-MAGNETIC whereas it is first and foremost SONIC. Everything was made by the WORD which is Intelligent Sonic Energy not necessarily Audible Sound but Sound nonetheless. Even the Hindus teach that all was made by the divine Sound which they incorrectly identify as OM. Nonetheless the idea is correct, it is all SOUND, Intelligent Energy. God can be defined as Intelligent, Sentient Energy which is expressed through sound waves which are mathematical like musical notes.

              I really am not very well versed in the subject and probably came across as ignorant in my previous comments to you, so again, I apologize if you perceived it as arguing.

            • Sam Knight
            • into the light

              😂 thanks for this! hahaha

            • The Raven

              LOL!

            • Sam Knight

              An interesting perspective which gives added meaning to “Logos”

            • into the light

              I’m not sure if you’re aware of Cymatics. Look it up, it might be of interest. It’s kinda related to this sonic stuff.

            • into the light

              Another theory from the same comment. It’s certainly an interesting read.

              […] all things are SONIC but all things are not Electric. Intelligence can only be expressed through sound (not to be confused with audible noise.) Sound Energy is like artificial intelligence in that it is basically Numbers. However pure Sonic Energy that is GOD, the WORD that is, is not artificial, it is the true Intelligence in which all Intelligence, including human intelligence has its origins. So every intelligence including our own is Artificial because it comes from an external source just as it would in a robot that has been programmed by its designer. Though the robot may be self-aware, that self-awareness is a function of its programming, which in turn is a mathematical equation that is a product of the Intelligence that programmed it. The programmer of all things is God; He alone possesses Intelligence that is not Artificial, all other creatures maybe Intelligent and Sentient but they are not Self-Intelligent. This is the true meaning of God’s Name JEHOVAH, the Great I AM, the Self-Intelligent One who alone possesses the faculty of language, of Programming Language that can define any concept in mathematical terms; this is why nothing is impossible for God. Everything has an underlying mathematical equation that defines it and that equation, like the DNA code determines what the solution to the equation will be. The solution to the human DNA equation is a human being. It is no different than an equation, a code, a programming language whose solution would result in a tree or a landscape to appear on a computer screen. Though one may be looking at a tree, the tree would not exist unless there first existed a mathematical equation that defined it. God employs a 3 or possibly 4 dimensional screen on which his equations appear as humans, animals, plants, oceans, stars, planets and basically all things, visible and invisible. Some of these things are sentient, and some are even Intelligent but nonetheless all of these things have their Genesis in a mathematical equation that is expressed as a musical note. The Divine Sound is a belief common in almost all religions but especially in the Bible. However the so-called church has become gatekeepers that exist to hide the truth not to reveal it. But how does the Bible say God created everything; it tells us that He created it by His WORD. The WORD is the programming language that is the building block of all things that exist. The WORD is a mathematical formula, The Divine Equation, the Holy Grail that Lucifer wanted to ascend into Heaven to steal and thus become GOD. But here I digress…
              The infinite size of God’s Creation proves the infinite computing capabilities of God who can compute equations to the nth factor and beyond. The size of anything depends entirely on the size of the underlying equation that defines it. The most powerful supercomputer made by man or any other Intelligence besides God cannot even begin to compute on a scale that could create our Earth let alone the Solar System, Galaxies and the Universe. Things do not consist of particles but numbers that are expressed in the form of Sound Energy mostly inaudible but powerful. Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the Word of God is Alive (sentient) and Powerful; that word Powerful is the Greek word ENERGEO; yes the Bible does tell us that the WORD of GOD is ENERGY; and since the WORD is GOD, it means that God is Energy. So here is the Biblical definition of God: God is Living Intelligent Conscious Energy, Ultimately God is Language, He is Intelligence, He is the LOGOS which means Logic, Reason and Intelligence. Computers work on Logic and the only Computer whose Logic is perfect is God. Too much to be said and not enough time but I hope there is enough food for thought here for those who choose to use their God given faculties of logic and reason and spend some time things on these complex truths of our existence and our origins…..

            • The Raven
            • Richard Long

              Really lends some weight to the consideration of Jesus as the Word if God.

              Try your hand at bc’s query:

              Since it is impossible for Jehovah to lie, what would happen if he casually stated “white is black”?

            • into the light

              It would be according to his word, wouldn’t it? Isaiah 55:11 Does that make sense?

            • Richard Long

              Right. The implications, man! The implications!

            • into the light

              Sorry, being a bit thick atm. I’m really mentally exhausted today. I’m not sure if there is supposed to be some deeper truths to what you’re asking but I see it as an exercise in futility since I can’t imagine Jehovah involving himself in nonsensical statements.

            • Richard Long

              The point being Jehovah is very careful, dare I say precise with his words.

            • into the light

              Which is exactly why I posted the Isaiah scripture. Everything he says has a purpose.
              Just like the programming language that was mentioned in that comment I quoted. Every line of code has a purpose, is executed at the precise time and has a resulting action.

            • Richard Long

              Again, this is only a thought exercise for bored people.

              IF Jehovah were to make such a statement, and it came to pass immediately there would no longer be white light in the spectrum and there would be two blacks. Tie that to your contribution about how all energy is Sonic, and you soon have collapse of the physical universe, even possibly the spirit realm. Implications for careless speech indeed!

              RL

            • into the light

              Man, you really have a talent to spin one’s head 😵 😁

            • Richard Long

              Learned it from a carpenter from Galilee.

            • into the light

              Also in order for Jehovah to casually make that statement, the white would need to be black. Unless you want to imply that it is possible for him to lie.

            • Richard Long

              No, his impossiblity to lie is what makes the implications so profound. He would cause an effect because white is what he says it is unconditionally. What he says, becomes irregardless of any previous condition.

            • into the light

              You could’ve said that you agree when I made that statement initially without complicating it. 🤔

            • Richard Long

              I could, but then I’d have no reason to expect to stop seeing premises that required leaps in debates of more significance. Eisegesis is what the WT does and trained us all to accept an do. I have been for months trying to pull this community into more sustainable debate and the employment of Exegesis and I have high hopes you can transition. You don’t have to if you don’t want to it see no need to.

              Look, if you want to see examples of flailing eisegesis, just read my early logs. Should make for a good laugh ( or cry).

            • into the light

              When it comes to bible I agree completely. Because everything else falls into the domain of men’s teachings. But the comment we discussed was more like mental gymnastics IMO…

            • Richard Long

              Therein lies the rub. My effort has to be “universal” for me to avoid hypocrisy.

              The first thing Christ did when asked ANYTHING was to properly adjust the premise, if necessary. That is WHY his teaching was so sublime. He never spent any time answering the wrong question, no matter who asked it.

            • into the light

              I understand. But going into details and technicalities of things that are understood in principle when we discuss is not necessary. Especially in this case where we discussed black+white… But I agree with your statement that we need to employ exegesis. That’s how the truth is found after all.

            • Richard Long

              It is not necessary for me to participate at all, nor for anyone to allow me to. But when I do, you get what you get. One thought I keep in mind is that everything we write and say and do IS being observed and recorded by the angels for the Christ to use in his examination of us during the parousia. Since I’m going to answer for it, I’d like to careful with it.

            • into the light

              Fair enough. And I appreciate your opinions because they also nudge me to get out of my comfort zone and consider things I might not otherwise think about. So thanks for that.

            • into the light

              What are your thoughts about it? You have a knack for seeing things from multiple perspectives so I’d like to hear it 😊

            • Richard Long

              From where my head is, I can’t see much besides the sphincter connecting my descending colon to my transverse colon😎

            • into the light

              Like this? 😂https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ae4c8c1deed95e0b1eb70656f5c974006367cfdd459fc9d741f0313277040c64.jpg

            • Richard Long

              Opposite inserted article, but that is funny. Feces for brains fits me, too.

            • Burt Reynolds

              For a comment on the declining state of intelligence in this world, I find that picture most appropriate, given that a picture can speak a thousand words!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Several things actually. White is not the opposite of black. Light is. And as Einstein pointed out, darkness is the prevailing substance and it is light that is the addition. Einstein may have been applauded for mentioning that, but you and I know that the first verses of the bible contain the command, ‘let there be light.’ The spectrum of light cannot exist without the addition of light over the absence of light, but white is simply a pigment that reflects light to the greatest degree that we know of. As do the other pigments in their various shades. Thus it would be correct to term white is black because without light, it would be. Simple really.

            • Richard Long

              Not as simple as all that, Burt, as black is not the opposite of light, darkness is. I guess I agree with all that other stuff, but your white eggs are still white when you close the refrigerator door. sheesh!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Actually Richard, black is actually greater than darkness. The gravitational pull of a black hole ( or as you might call it, a darkness hole -sorry….) is so strong that light is unable to escape. And therefore, colour does not exist or darkness, it is simply an absence of light, which is what Einstein was arguing about with his physics teacher. Thus darkness would be a shade of a degree of the reduction in light and which is not possible as there would be no light whatsoever. Thus making it black. Your turn. 😇

            • Richard Long

              Do you have a black hole in your refrigerator. Mine did not have that option available or I probably would have gotten it.

            • Mac the strife

              I am interjecting here, Richard & Burt, where you both scientists in a previous life lol. If reincarnation were true, knowing my luck I would come back as me 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Mac, No, I was not a scientist in my last life. In a past life I was a Saggar Maker’s Bottom Knocker, starting as an apprentice when I was seven years old, in 1534, at the pottery in York. From there I rose to a skilled potter in 1548 and we owned a right to make charcoal in the Kings Forest at that time, using all the dead wood and growing our own Hazel etc. My wife and I had a cob house on the outskirts of York , where in fact Minster Road is now. The pottery was in Old Kents Field about a mile north from there and on going back there some years ago, I could still find shards of pottery and burnt clay there by the hedge row. Of course I have been reincarnated many times since then, but this was one of my best reincarnations. One of the most interesting reincarnations I had (apart from being a Swami in India) was being a Sergeant in the Royal Artillary during the Great War. I copped for a direct hit on the second day of the Somme Offensive, by a trench mortar and was blown to pieces. It gave the expression of ‘blowing your mind’ a whole new meaning. I had a brief reappearance in May 1918 but the family was bombed out by the Huns going over in a Zeppelin, and then ended up as a social worker this time around. I am hoping to be a hologram in my next life as its a whole lot more entertaining.

            • Mac the strife

              Gosh Burt, I.. I remember you from the pottery from York.

              I can tell you had a lot of fun writing that, and I had a lot of fun reading it.

            • Richard Long

              ditto

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yep! In those days you were called Mac the Trowel as you used to work on the building sites. Looks like your trowel was worn down to a knife over the four hundred years or so.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have just cottoned on that you are Jamie Mac, the computer boffin! I’m like Homer Simpson looking for the ‘Anykey’ to press.

            • Richard Long

              “I am hoping to be a hologram in my next life as its a whole lot more entertaining”

              And a whole lot easier to maintain ones athletic figure.

            • Richard Long

              I’d RATHER come back as you JM.

            • Burt Reynolds

              ‘Sounds’ like a good theory! Let us give praise to the Father for not being a Rap artist.

            • Richard Long

              Burt, you spelled it wrong! It’s cRap. The “C” is silent!

            • Richard Long

              That’s enough to make it suspect, right there! I give you Gordon Ritchie.

            • Sam Knight
            • Sam Knight

              If you look at 20mins in you’ll see the rock art and he explains it as plasma discharge.
              He’s actually saying that they were simply drawing on rock what they were observing in the sky.

            • Richard Long

              Another treatment on what to make of the meaning of this and other ancient art this may be found in this series of 8 movies beginning with this one. Not an endorsement of belief on my part, just an acknowledgement of what some researchers have concluded. Or imagined, Or “tripped”, depending on viewpoint.

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B01MSC00XZ/ref=dv_web_wtls_list_pr_34

              Obviously, if we are enforcing a “canonical scripture only” injunction, the whole series is useless blasphemy. Otherwise, it’s just plain blasphemy?

            • Sam Knight

              Perhaps they named their God’s after the planets or verse via. But they appeared as God’s to our ancestors. A truelly magnificent display. Hence why Jehovah told his people not to worship these impressive luminaries.

            • into the light

              They were fascinated by stars that’s for sure, but I don’t think they looked any more impressive than they do today. Because that would require major shift in planets, and we know that our solar system is finely tuned to support life only on earth. Any change in “parameters” would render it inhabitable.

            • The Raven

              If you’re talking about a time before the flood, they would not have been able to see the stars. The physical laws governing this planet obviously changed drastically when the flood occurred and in that vein it is a possibility that the solar system and beyond could also have been subjected to major changes. We cannot know for sure what they were other than the waters above and below us being “released” which I still find amazing.

              Romans 8
              22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

              What being “set right” means, I don’t know. But it’s a fascinating subject.

            • into the light

              Maybe the water canopy would act like magnifying glass so they could have seen them as Sam was suggesting?

            • The Raven

              The sun also? Ever seen kids fry ants with a magnifying glass? For all we know they could have been seeing some phosphorescent creatures which lived in the canopy. Who knows what was in it? But with that much water above them, I doubt they could have seen much else. It is described as an ocean.

            • Richard Long

              Yeah, that’s the real head tripper. Did the “ocean above” contain aquatic life, I’d love to know?

            • The Raven

              Or something else similar to electro magnetic discharges like sprites and elves above our atmosphere.

            • Sam Knight

              https://youtu.be/5d-vEtcFjFM
              This is a better clip and it gets straight to the point.

            • The Raven

              Talbot does not discuss the canopy. This deals mainly with knowledge the fallen had but we have no real way of knowing for sure. It appears to me that most of these theories are based on conditions after the flood. Quite possibly demon inspired since it’s wrapped up in their worship. I’ve often wondered if marine science could be a better discipline to know when considering the heavenly canopy and not astronomy. Lol!

            • Sam Knight

              Yeah you’re right. It’d have to be post flood. Still interesting though.

            • The Raven

              Sure is! We always have a lot of fun discussing these things. The possibilities are mind bending but of course we know to keep it within Jehovah’s words in the end. We know much has been hidden for centuries and we know why. 😉

            • into the light

              Maybe that’s why it was raining frogs and stuff

            • into the light

              I was thinking more along the lines how when you look at very clear water everything looks magnified. Not the actual glass. Also, I think the water in the sky wouldn’t be in the same state as ocean for example. And also that water would be circulating also, and thus equalize climate around the globe, not fry things. If it was as you are suggesting then even the sun and moon wouldn’t be discernible but would look just like diffused lights in the sky.

            • The Raven

              Yes, it would have currents similar to our oceans. There is no way of knowing what was seen but I wouldn’t put it past the fallen to have made all sorts of apparitions appear in it.

            • Sam Knight

              Just saw an image from gobleki tepi in Turkey of the planets. That place is supposed to be pre flood. If so woudnt that prove they could see the planets?

            • The Raven

              An image of the planets may be more likely. Not the planets themselves. I do not doubt that knowledge was imparted to some people by the fallen. Along with other “knowledge” like war, rituals, curses etc. Remember they loved to be worshiped. If Jehovah saw fit to destroy all life I can only imagine just how bad it was. Something else that crossed my mind about alleged objects on other planets. Since the fallen were chained up in Tartarus I would think it possible that their brethren have also been up to misdirection by salting a few places with stuff that makes humanity believe there is alien life. More lies to keep us from focusing on them and their evil deeds. They can still do a number of things besides materialize or put on flesh.

            • Richard Long

              Sorry to intrude, but I’m hoping bygones can be bygones because your mind is too interesting to have to ignore on purpose.

              Humans would not need to see beyond the canopy to “know” what is beyond the canopy. The rebellious angels did know and it’s hard to imagine they were humble enough to keep the information to themselves. If nothing else they’d be using their knowledge of things extra-terrestrial to impress their groupies.

              Other than that, your expressions hit bulls-eye for both plausible and reasonable.

              RL

            • The Raven

              We discussed this a while back, if I recall. My idea is that man was greatly influenced by the fallen ones. Humanity would not have been able to see past that ocean but that doesn’t mean he was entirely ignorant. But if we remember Noah was treated like a fool when he told people what was to happen. The vast majority must not have understood that possibility. The knowledge of the physical forces and Jehovah’s power rested mainly with the fallen and their followers. But even they could not save anyone but themselves. There are numerous sites and artifacts which may support that theory. Also biblical record which science denies for the most part. I believe humanity was way more advanced than science will admit. It does not fit their theory of ignorant and ape like origins.

            • Richard Long

              theory of evolution vs history of devolution.

              Look you cant walk Tolum or Chichen Itza or any of these sites in the Americas and deny these societies were led by masters astronomers making use of celestial navigation probably dating back to about the scattering of linguistic groups at Babel. And don’t get me started on the tech they must have had.

            • The Raven

              I can’t wait to see that theory meet its demise. One of the demons most awful lies.

            • The Raven

              The fallen came down here, trashed us and then instilled the lies of evolution to hide their crimes. That’s how evil they are.

            • Richard Long

              Our ancestors were aware of a LOT more than that. We have in the record abundant authenticated clay tablets from ancient Sumer that depict 9 planet solar system, yada yada yada. All kinds of stuff “ancient” man is not supposed to be aware of. Even aircraft. The debate becomes did they see these things by first person observation, or with a little help from their friends, as in demon inspired dreams.

            • into the light

              Oh yeah, ancient man wan’t supposed to know things 😆. I just hate it how ignorant the “scientists” are today. They remind me of religious figures who expect people to just believe everything they say.
              I was referring to Romans when I said 5 planets + 2 luminaries.. But yeah you’re right about Sumer I recall reading about that long time ago. I also remember aircraft depictions from vedas. I think it could be oral traditions from Noah’s sons since they lived in time when demons brought some knowledge humans hadn’t before. They must have witnessed some of that. But it could also be dreams as you say. I think there is something about the fallen angels teaching humans skills like metallurgy and such in some Jewish books which actually even name some angels and attribute some skills and crafts to different angels. I don’t remember what book it is but I’m not too keen to believe that whoever wrote those things had that knowledge. Unless they were communicating with those demons…

            • Richard Long

              The Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes those books in their Bible canon. One assumption is that the information contained in them isn’t “white” enough for the European Church.

            • into the light

              Books about the fallen angels?

            • Richard Long

              Yes, the book of Enoch included, which plainly states Noah was albino negroid., hence the racism charge. Search “Ethiopian Orthodox Bible Canon”. I’m not in any way promoting another configuration of the canon, just acknowledging that political force seems to be the true determinant of what is “scripture” and what is not. This is scholarship way beyond my current capacity, so you’re on your own from here on out.

            • into the light

              Ok, thanks. I have no problem checking it out. I can agree about canon being determined by political forces, but I believe that God let it be that way. I just had the thought actually today… about 66 books of the canon. Cause recently we were discussing about what 666 meant and how it’s a man’s number so…. 🤔. In any case I think we got everything that we need, since it seems as a cohesive whole and it’s message is plain. I’m not sure what other apocryphal books say except Tobit which I can see why it’s not included in the inspired scriptures. Ultimately, imo, the teachings of Jesus and inspired apostles are what is most important for us at this time in order to become agreeable to him.

            • Richard Long

              That said, we could live or die by the gospel of John. The number of 66 books IS contrived, as all the prophets were once one book. Agree God’s will because if that were not the case, it would not be so.

            • The Raven

              That would be found in the Apocrypha.

            • into the light

              The book I was referring is not a part of bible, I think it has more to do with Jewish traditions in talmud, kabbalah or some other book. I think it was more in the domain of esoteric and rabbinical teachings. I happened upon some website that had info about those books at least 10 years ago and can’t remember the details.

              edit: there was something on that site that said Satan was some kind of flying machine since he is described in bible as having sockets and pipes in Ezekiel 28. 😂

            • The Raven

              The apocrypha isn’t part of the bible. It is not considered inspired. But several groups have incorporated that collection into their canon. Well the Talmud is a large collection of books on Jewish opinion, some of it really condemning of gentiles and Christ. Kabbalah is basically mysticism. I’ve seen many texts describing satan as a flying dragon but a machine? Nope. Lol! There’s a lot of garbage out there. I think some of these things have some value but do not accept them as the word of God. I believe what we have has been gathered and presented as sufficient to educate humanity about God’s work. But even there we are told some of the prophecies are sealed until the time of the end. Many folks are conscious of their spiritual need and the devil is more than happy to fill that need with his own lies. It requires a good deal of care not to be led astray. I’ve studied “other” texts for decades and always came back to inspired scripture. Imo jehovah has , despite man’s and the devil’s errors and lies kept the basics intact.

            • into the light

              I don’t accept the uninspired anything as a word of god. But I can see the historical value of those other books as they, in most cases, can shed light how apostasy found its way into the congregations.
              Inspired scriptures are alive on the other hand (Heb. 4:12).

            • The Raven

              Very good comment. We’re on the same page.

            • The Raven

              The debate among christendom has more to do with power than it does truth. To be in agreement with the larger adherents of christianity would have given them claims of authority at a time when that religion, conquest and colonialism were delivered in tandem by the sword. But my personal view remains thus…if any of them still accept the trinity and our destination as either heaven or roasting in eternal hellfire then arguing over these books doesn’t matter since truth was gleaned from the core of what we know as the inspired word of God.

            • Sam Knight

              And events outside of earth are not in the spirit realm. Events outside of our dimension are.

            • into the light

              Spirit realm is the different dimension. The one that we can’t observe or even comprehend.

            • Sam Knight

              I am simply saying that the planets are within our dimension and are not in the spirit realm. I think you agree? Perhaps wires crossed at some point?

            • into the light

              Yes they are. but what I was saying is that when bible mentions something that concerns things not on Earth, it’s not speaking about things on other planets but in spirit realm.

            • Sam Knight

              I have suspicions that Stanley Kubrick knew the truth. He revealed it in his movies. Perhaps a perverted version of the truth. He hinted at artifact on other planets and was quoted as saying that “they’ll get me for that” after he made “eyes wide shut”. What was the image that was broadcast into your home after the Vegas shooting? A certain man with his eyes shut? Related? Most definitely! The people that rule over us are most definitely weirdos of the highest degree.

            • The Raven

              He was also accused of faking the moon landings but I’m not going there. LOL.
              I have strongly suspected he was on the Pentagon’s payroll during our “spy vs spy” years and there is no telling what sorts of misinformation we have been given to “entertain” us while they designed and tested top secret military assets. In fact a lot of stories were planted by the military to distract folks. Groom lake, Janet airlines and Dreamland became fodder for those ufo coverup conspiracies. But as for Kubrick saying “they’ll get me for that”, highly possible, IMO but maybe not for what we know about it.

            • into the light

              Just pondering… how once you start thinking about how the lies, cover ups and manipulation are defining things of this system the truth gets more meaning. When you understand it and think about the scripture that says “the truth will set you free” you really get it’s true meaning. It’s really so simple yet most people are blind to it.

            • The Raven

              It’s insidious. Everything is saturated in lies. Follow a white rabbit and you’re in for it. 😉

            • Richard Long

              Hi, IT. Not taking a position, just trying to steer the debate in a more sustainable direction.

              A more accurate premise might be stated: In the known universe, only Earth is KNOWN to be habitable and support life as we define it.

              Yours assumes facts not in evidence, as what we know if the universe is virtually nothing.

              Also, IF it is Father’s plan to populate other planets following the restoration and filling of this one, say anytime in the next million years or so, preparation of them would have had to be begun eons ago. We certainly cannot say with any sort of authority that they are not ready for occupancy now.

              RL

            • into the light

              Hi Richard, I did say in the known universe.
              We can’t say whether they are ready for occupancy, but we can say that life doesn’t appear out of the blue but also takes eons to form. And who knows, once this issue is resolved, maybe god will also ask us to have a part in creation as angels did in creation of earth? Seems plausible as we already demonstrated that we’re highly capable of creation. We’re made in his image after all.

            • Richard Long

              You did say that, but in a sentence that in was less precise than necessary to give it probative value, IMO. Or not. You decide.

              Agree the rest.

              RL

            • into the light

              Oh come on, bro. Let’s not take it that far. You’re perfectly aware what I meant. No need for being so particular about it. 😁

            • Richard Long

              I did know what you meant, but I still had to make a leap of inference to get where you wanted me to be. Is relying on your reader’s ability to do make such leaps the way you want to communicate your thoughts? I think I do need to be that particular about it, as faulty premise is the foundation of WT eisegesis. I would like us all to throw off that yoke the WT has taught us bear without challenging it.

              Agape, RL

            • into the light

              I understand your need to be correct but you’re taking it too far IMO. The context of original question didn’t require for me to make such leap. I was answering to a simple question that Sam asked in a way that would make sense without being overly technical about it.

            • Richard Long

              Ok, I heard you say “or not”. Please remember my opinion is worth even less than you paid for it.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have to admit to a total ignorance on the subject Sam. My only contribution to the subject was in respect of the bible telling us that the ‘fallen’ Angels were prevented from materialising after the flood. Other than that, the bible does not appear to offer anything else on the subject. As I said, I often wonder about the other planets and space….who does not?….but I do not think anything more can be proved from the bible. I speculated at one time that all the evidence from the earth; technology, various skulls, bones etc, dinosaurs, megaliths etc indicated that Jehovah developed his creation rather than gone straight for the finished article, but then, reasoning on the matter denied any credibility to it. The Father is perfect, thus his creation is also. The rest I can wait on. However, if you want to speculate….if one were to travel at the speed of light, from the observers point of view, there would be no distance between the planets. Chew on that. As to Mars being subject to nuclear issues, thus far there is no indication in soil samples of radioactivity or radioactive material as far as nasa has revealed. Blowing the planet to smithereens using such may have left a little trace or two, or maybe even a slight crater here or there.

Skip to toolbar