You really will be like God, knowing good and bad

//You really will be like God, knowing good and bad

Saturday, June 17

You will be like God, knowing good and bad.Gen. 3:5.

Today, all must decide whether they believe that God’s way of doing things is superior to Satan’s or vice versa. In all sincerity, do you take Jehovah’s side by choosing to obey his laws and standards instead of doing things your own way? Do you see his Kingdom as the only answer to mankind’s woes? Or do you believe that man is capable of governing himself? Your answers to these questions will determine how you respond when people ask your opinion on controversial matters. Politicians, activists, and reformers have long struggled to find solutions to divisive issues. Their efforts may be sincere and well-motivated. Yet, Christians recognize that only God’s Kingdom can solve mankind’s problems and guarantee true justice. We must leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands. After all, if each Christian advocated the solution he thought best, would not our congregations soon become divided?

Satan implied that God did not wish for any creatures to be like him, to be capable of knowing good and bad, which is to say, God does not want anyone deciding for themselves (angels included) what is good and bad.

On the surface it would seem that the Devil had a valid point. And the Watchtower’s Daily Text comment surely agrees. Obviously the “debaters of this system,” as Paul referred to the worldly wise men, have no real solutions to the myriad of intractable difficulties of governing earth’s teeming billions. It is safe to assume they will never solve the real problems facing humanity. And surely the WT is right in noting that disunity would be the inevitable result if each Christian strictly decided for themselves what was right and wrong in all matters.

Still, the issue raised by the serpent in Eden does not merely call into question man’s ability to govern himself independently of God, it really raises a disturbing question about Jehovah’s character, which is why the rebel angel has become known as the Devil —the slanderer. “Did God really say..?” —the opening question that plied Eve’s innocent mind —unquestionably, reverberated through the universe, challenging each and every one of the myriads upon myriads of heavenly sons of God to consider whether what God says matters. Is God holding something back because he is insecure in his place as God? Is God like the tyrants of this world who seek to stay in power by eliminating their political rivals and keeping the masses ignorant and backward? What would happen if God’s creatures were allowed to decide for themselves what is good and bad? Well, look around —the answer is abundantly clear.

As regards the angels, some in fact followed Satan’s lead and personally decided for themselves that forsaking their proper place in heaven and cloaking themselves in flesh as men in order to enjoy as many beautiful women as they wished, was a good thing. Perhaps they lacked the foresight to see the end result of an unnatural union of human DNA and materialized angel DNA would produce a race of violent freaks that terrorized mankind. Or maybe they thought that was a good thing too. Whatever. Most reasonable people accept that violent bullies who murder, maim and steal are not desirable neighbors.

Almighty God allowed it to go on to the point that the “earth was filled with violence,” at which point Jehovah expressed his regret for making man in the first place. He could not bear to watch any longer and so wiped out the world with a cataclysmic deluge. Only eight humans survived.

le delugeAlthough in the past century Satan’s geologists have worked long and hard to prove that the earth was not deluged, the record in stone and the written record prove otherwise. There once was a world that perished under a raging, earth-wide ocean. And in geologic terms it was not that long ago —roughly just four thousand years.

But while Jehovah demonstrated he has the will and the power to destroy on a grand scale, as well as provide salvation, the question lingered — was God withholding something out of fear? Was the execution of judgment merely the reaction of a tyrant to stay in control?

After the flood waters began to recede and the presently ongoing global warming trend first began to melt the massive sheets of ice and snow that instantaneously covered the northern and southern latitudes of the earth as a result of the collapse of the insulating oceanic canopy, Jehovah contacted a man named Abram.

God instructed him to move to a new land, one which God would show him. In time Abraham had a miraculously conceived son whom he named Isaac —meaning laughter. In time, though, Jehovah asked Abraham to do something unthinkable. He commanded Abraham to take the young man, Isaac, and slaughter him in sacrifice. No laughing matter.

Had God lost his mind? What parent would willingly kill their own offspring? Would Abraham accept what God decreed to be good? Or would Abraham decide for himself what was good and bad? As every Bible reader knows Abraham demonstrated that he had every intention to comply with God’s command. He went so far as to take the slaughtering knife in hand, at which point Jehovah’s angel intervened.

But why would God participate in this sort of charade, some may ask? Some 2,000 years later God’s firstborn son, who himself was miraculously born as a human —fully integrated into human DNA via Mary —said of Abraham: “Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”

Abraham rejoiced over the prospect of being the father of the messianic seed who would bring great blessings to all the nations. But how did Abraham see the day of Christ? He saw it figuratively by the act of sacrificing his only son —pre-enacting Jehovah giving his only-begotten Son.

As we all know, the sacrifice of Jesus’ perfect human life provided a ransom price for Adam’s dying offspring, making it legally and ethically possible for them to be redeemed from death. But like Isaac, Jesus was a willing participant in the sacrifice. He accepted God’s will. He acknowledged God’s determination of good and bad. That is why moments before his arrest, trial and execution, Jesus stated in prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, as he sweat his own blood: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

As a perfect man it is conceivable that Jesus could have produced perfect offspring himself, even with an imperfect mate. Think back to the occasion when Jehovah commanded Moses to step aside so he could exterminate the faithless Israelites and raise up a new race from Moses’ offspring. Moses intervened on the basis that it would bring reproach on Jehovah if he saved a people from Egypt only to later exterminate them in the desert. Just conjecture, but theoretically, Jesus could have set out on his own course to begin a new race and let Adam’s offspring simply die out. The point is, there may have been options, which adds great weight to Jesus’ submission to do God’s will and not his own.

But, again, what about the lingering question: “Did God really say…?”

Because Jesus, as a perfect man with free will, subjected himself to God’s will, which involved submitting himself to the cruelest death imaginable, Jehovah exalted Jesus by bestowing upon him, not only the Kingdom, but immortality. Contrary to Adam who demonstrated a shocking lack of regard for what God said, Jesus demonstrated over and over that he lived by Jehovah’s every utterance–frequently citing scripture as the sole authority. 

Contrary to the common misconception that everlasting life equates with immortality, it does not. After all, faithful angels and many humans will live for all eternity. But they will never be immortal. Having immortality means having life within one’s self. Having life in one’s self means that the immortal one is no longer dependent upon God for life, or anything else for that matter. That being true, an immortal is no longer bound by God’s rules. They can decide for themselves what is good and bad completely independent from God.

The new creation, as it is called, composed of Christ and 144,000 bought from the degraded human race, is destined to become like God in every sense. After Jehovah preforms a heart transplant, replacing their hearts of stone with hearts of flesh, (Ezekiel 11:19) certainly they will know good and bad just as had been Jehovah’s exclusive right up until now.

By empowering his new creation with unlimited freedom God provides the answer to the question Satan raised. The answer is: Jehovah withholds nothing good from those who love him. Some really will be like God, knowing good and bad. Jehovah has willed it to be so. In fact, Jehovah is even willing to graciously give up his throne to Jesus —who in turn gives it back, because, after all, the Son is exactly like the Father.

Presently, as vicious demons maneuver the nations into an inevitable suicidal slaughter with weapons so powerful the entire planet could be blacked out for all eternity, the final members of the new creation are being prepared to take the stage before angels and men in order to bring the issue squarely to centerstage —the issue of God’s sovereignty and the right to rule. It is surely true, there really is no escaping the issue and the ages-old question: “Did God really say…?”

2017-06-17T16:46:36+00:00 June 17th, 2017|Commentary|130 Comments
  • e.v.g

    Excellent article.

  • bobby6343

    So clear and easy to understand…..

  • Srecko Sostar

    Hi to all, wish you all best!
    I will make more words later :)))) , but for start just to say on last question-sentence in article. Yes, often we have dilema “Did (god or some other person) really say this or that?”, but (if) after some period of time we get to conclusion and agreed with, yes he said so, we all have always a second question – WHY he said this and that? 🙂

  • JTK

    truly Holy Spirit inspired education

  • black curtain

    These last articles have certainly been thought provoking, this one no exception. Rob You say that being immortal ” are no longer bound by God’s rules”, that struck me as being sweeping and inconsistent with the gift of immortality itself. The WT explanation for immortality, lines up with what you have said, it is life without needed input from God, i.e food for humans, no idea what angels plug into (a Tesla recharger???) whereas life immortal requires no sustainment to continue but it doesn’t mean no death which is where they (the WT) differ. The gift of immortality is not given lightly and therefore the ones receiving it presumably have full loyalty to Gods sovereignty. But if (theoretically) they chose bad then what? A bit like the question what would have happened if Satan had won his argument? One that I have heard many times while at the doors doing WT duty. The impossible answer is that Jehovah would have to slink off to a far corner of the universe and keep supplying the energy while Satan ran the show, and he got immortality as a bonus for winning the argument. Sorry for the question the articles are always so good that ideas are generated, any further thoughts on this question? Cheers bc

    • For the non-mortals life is always dependent upon obedience. But if a creature is immortal death is not a threat, hence obedience to God is not necessary for continued life. But, the fact that the 144,000 have the same spirit as Christ and Christ’s loyalty to God is total and unbreakable, there is no possibility that any of the other immortals will choose to be disloyal. The reason? They will know Jehovah completely, even as the Son knows the Father. And just as it is impossible for God to lie, it will be impossible for the immortals to ever betray the One who gave them live in themselves.

      • black curtain

        Cheers
        Bc

      • Richard Long

        Robert, would it also be reasonable to cite Jehovah’s own SELF-IMPOSED limitations own his own actions. If He, being the Supreme Authority, has determined His purposes for His creation are best served by He, Himself, not exercising His own freedom(s) to the extreme possible, then would we not, with great confidence, expect those so thoroughly tested and created most closely in His image to reflect that same mindset with the same resulting self control.

        As most here by now know, trust is practically an alien concept to me. The idea that Jehovah can and will place such epic, monumental, all encompassing trust in those He has purchased from the earth literally takes my breath away!

        • Burt Reynolds

          I know what you mean by trust! It is a rare commodity today.

          • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

            That’s true

        • It is hard to imagine, but God is incorruptible. But being Almighty, he can also create incorruptness within his creatures. That is what the new creation is. Paul said that this which is mortal will put on immortality. And that which is corrupt, must put on incorruption. So, immortality is just half of it. The other aspect is incorruption – the quality of not only being sinless, but being unable to sin, as is Jehovah himself. frr

    • Burt Reynolds

      It is not inconceivable that perfect life, independant of Jehovah, would cease to exist of its own accord if it chose to do wrong, as does ours. We do not know the substance of life, what energises it, or sustains it. What we do know, is that it can only exist in perfect form. To sin would be suicide. It’s just an oblique thought. That does not detract from what Robert says because it must be so….Jehovah can read hearts.

  • Srecko Sostar

    First, brief review on WT text. The organization raises several questions, and then asks the reader whether he (as a member of JWorg) is going to answer questions about controversial matters. It is best that he does not do it, but if he does, then it is best to say, “We must leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands.” God will solve everything, the air will no longer be polluted, the earth will not be poisoned, the food will be healthy (vegetarian, hehe). But in the meantime JW members and the whole organization can continue to drive cars, use climate devices, be part of consumerism of modern life, and use all the benefits of the industry and science of this “Satanic world” that destroys air and soil and food, animals and people. JW contribute to that all bad also by “using the world”.

    At the same time in terms of helping people, they only deal with “spiritual help” to increase the number of members. They do not want to open public kitchens or shelters for homeless people. Why? WT says it’s meaningless, because only the Kingdom can solve all the problems. In the meantime, you who are hungry, let you stay hungry (go and eat … somewhere else) but here you can go online and look for JWorg and you will get all the answers to the question about, why god allows suffering.

    What is the most important benefit of such attitude? WT text continue:
    “After all, if each Christian advocated the solution he thought best, would not our congregations soon become divided?”
    WT discourages intellectual participation in considering the problem, but also discourages a literal active engagement in helping. !!!
    What a comedy reason. If that is the reason for not actively helping inside and outside JW congregation on organizational (corporate) and personal (private) level or inside some other “charity” programs, than is it normal?? to expect “great and prosperous future” without doing, learning, feeling NOW ?? in today’s circumstances and to show to self and to your god that you care, and that you not “wait for god” to do your job because of your human WTJWorg attitude, belief how He will solve all yours and other people’s problems because it is promised??. In meantime you on your personal level not need to make enough efforts to change your mind, attitude, habits… to give bread to hungry…because satan rules the world anyway.

    WT expecting and call for (material) helping corporation but for helping own members in their various needs and circumstances means that elders making “special” observation and see if person deserve to be helped…:)))) imagine. Ok, people cheating but Jw are honest people, or …? are like any other.
    Would like to hear your opinion and thoughts :))

    • Jesus miraculously fed the multitudes on a couple of occasions, but he afterwards reproved the crowds for following after him for a free meal. He advised them to stop working for the food that perishes but seek the food that remains, which leads to everlasting life. Let the churchgoers man the soup kitchens, but let Jehovah’s Witnesses be about their ministry in the short time remaining.

      • Srecko Sostar

        Thanks Robert! Ministry of preaching is good work indeed, but as you highlighting through your articles what they spoke about in that ministry is problematic. :)) … so looking from that aspect i wonder, of what benefit can be such uninspired and err doctrines, instructions in their ministry. Only if they decide to stick to very, very basic gospel (in verbal sense and in sense of deeds)

    • Burt Reynolds

      Righteous indignation. But having been reminded as to what Robert pointed out below, the command was indeed to preach the word as being the main work. Jesus also said that the poor are always with us. Yet he did feed them, and heal them, and comfort them, but to show the power of Jehovah and of the manifestation of the promise. But I have to say that my gut feeling is that we should not neglect charity, but I don’t think Robert is suggesting that we do. But I know for a fact that I could do more to help those around me charitably . The scriptures also say that we should minister to the annointed and by doing so, we do likewise to Christ. And do we not expect Jehovah to feed us and help us and preserve us alive? Yes it is right to say the kingdom message is the true source of life, but the fact remains that the scripture also tells us that faith without works is dead. My answer to my conscience seems similar to yours….to do both as much as possible. As for the watchtower; why expect the evil within it to act with love? It could do do much morea to help physically in the light of the scripture above and still put the message first. You are right. They have a vast surplus of money so to do. Christ showed the dividing line between the two responsibilities, and the reason why, but he also provided physically, to illustrate to us, the balance between, and the priority between, both aspects. We should all do likewise. You are right in so many ways.

      • Srecko Sostar

        Thanks Burt, your thoughts are in line with 1. John 3:16-18. Jesus was aware of basic physical/spiritual human needs, and he made that possible for them.
        It is very significant that first miracle Jesus has made was making water to wine :))). In that occasion, as to the report, he was not talking about kingdom, end of system, no spiritual lesson, wisdom…. just wine. Why Jesus came to conclusion that wine is so important, most important present he can give to the people on wedding day, evening. No word in report that he preached about god, everlasting life, … contrary to the fact he knew very well – he will die very soon, in few years. And in spite that he decided to give people wine (wine is important :)))) but is not basic human need even in physical sense, not to mention spiritual need and position of Jew people in those time.

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Yor gut feeling about charity is very much scriptual…it sure seems to be something that Jesus and his apostles used to do…why else would they think to themselves that Judas(who used to take care of the money) was going out to give some to the poor..”Some in fact,were thinking that since Judaswas holding the money box,Jesus was telling him,”Buy what we need fo the festival”,ore that he should give something to the poor. (Joh.13:29)

        And why else did the apostle paul make so much efford in enqurage all the congregations to put some money aside to assist all those holy ones in need?

        And it was even 7 men appointed to take care of the daily distribution of food/money in Jerusalem…Stefanus was one of them…(Acts 6:1-3)

        James 2:8 “If,now,you carry out the royal law according to the scripture.”You must love your neighbor as yourself,”you are doing quite well.

        And as Kevin used to say “read a lot more”James 2:14-18…:-)

        btw…what is the parable about the mercyful samaritan all about?….looks like charity to me tough…while the priest and the levite strolled along

        • The apostles apparently kept an operating fund for their own needs, as they basically left off their secular work during the three years they followed Jesus.

          And the distribution of money and food in the early days of Christianity was for exclusively Christian believers.

          Also, the story of the so-called “good Samaritan” is intended to move us as individuals to take responsibility for the welfare of others. The Samaritan did not go off and set up a soup kitchen or whatever.

          • Richard Long

            I too, think that it’s on us, as neighbors, filling a need when we see a need. That the ORG should have to get involved is to our individual shame, as we would then not be living up to OUR christian duty.

          • Arvid Fløysand

            Soup kitchen was not on my mind when writing my reply to Burt…but i still belive that beeing a true follower of Christ Jesus is to practice what we teach…not only doing good to our “own” but also to others…”So, then,as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good towards ALL, but especially towards those related to us in faith”(Gal.6:10)

            There was two Jehovahs Witnesses living in the same area in Norway during the second world war..one was a full time pioner and father to tree children.
            The other was just a ordinary witness and worked hard by mining tunnels and building roads over mountains, but also a father to tree children.
            The tree children of the pioner-brother did not see their father so often because he spent a lot of his time spreading the good news.By doing so he was not able to support his own family with food…but he was lucky,because the humble and hardworking brother who build roads in the mountains,came to the pioners house at night and placed food in a box on their doorstep every now and then.
            But thats not all.
            This hardworking brother used to tell every one he met about Jehovahs kingdom while he was working…guess what…hundreds of russian soldiers who was taken captive by the germans,was forsed to work very hard on these tunnels and roads over the mountains.
            Did they get plenty of food?
            They would all be dead if it were not for what that hardworking humble brother did.
            He organised a group of norwegian railroadworkers to hide small rations of food on the roadside,for those russians….he did this while using every opportunity to remind them of the only hope for mankind…often by making the good news about the kingdom into a song…(his wife used to help him making this songs)
            He was quite sure that the germans never understood the message in those songs .
            (It was usual to sing songs to keep the rythm while swinging the sledgehammer)

            Those two brothers…the pioner and the railroadworking witness…both died poor.
            The pioner-brothers children turned their back on Jehovah.
            The railroadworking-witness children lived their whole life witnessing for Jehova and helping anyone in need.

            Some years ago a bus full of old tourist came to that district and found a relative (granchild) of the humble and helpful railroad-worker…they were all Jehovahs Winesses and children of those surviving russian soldiers…
            Their fathers had told them about this man who provided them not only with spiritual food but also bread an herring to keep them alive…they new he had risked his own life by doing so….imagine if instead the pioner-brother was the only norwegian those russian soldiers met…only focused on placing litterature

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, I can’t begin to tell you how much this post has got to be the most moving, heartbreaking and heartwarming account I’ve read in a long time. I will NEVER forget this story Arvid as it has everything about love for God, the Kingdom and the love of humanity in the most awful of situations and it’s not about hours in the ministry and placing bits of papers which does in itself does the job it’s about taking every opportunity to tell anyone about the Kingdom and helping any human irrelevant of who they are if they’re blatantly in need and if you can! Yeah, you’re without clothing and you’re starving and you have no shoes but here’s a brochure about what God has in store for mankind, yeah, that’ll really do the trick for that person in obvious need! Mmmm..lovely! Arvid I wish I could upvote you a thousand times for your humanity and love of neighbour!

            • Thanks for sharing that story. Very inspiring.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              And thank you for mentioning the soup-kitchen hehe…because that is really a good one tough…spesially if we use that “picture” as a illustration of lets say this site…many who hunger for spiritual nutrious soup/food are gathered here every day to not only enjoye some food in proper time but also the company…both sould make us stronger and well prepared for the days ahead…

            • Max

              Wow Arvid! Very moving story. What I’m left with is that love has always been and always will be spirit of Jehovah’s law. Who ever is able to reflect and applied the love of God in everything ones does will for sure have Jehovah’s blessings. Because Jehovah is love. Thank you for such a remarkable story!

        • Daisy

          The WT mindset is … always has been , only doing good to those related to us in the truth..unless shunning is the order of the day of course!
          I remember listening to a talk explaining the meaning of the word ‘hospitality’…
          how we could provide coffee to the preachers after the ministry…maybe a biscuit? Toast and marmite?
          Or how we could invite pioneers for lunch once a week or open our home to accommodate a circuit overseer and wife.
          This example of hospitality was after the meaning of the word was described as ‘loving strangers!
          The parable of the Samaritan came to my mind after listening to this drivel, in that…as you say…the priest (Law of Moses) and the levites (prophets) paid no heed whatsoever to the dying man on the road to Jericho ..but a man hated by both of the above showed so much compassion as to not only dress his wounds but go that bit extra to take care of him, to get him accommodated for the night, staying with him overnight, providing more than sufficient funds to take care of him; you know this…and When He Came Again would cover any more costs needed by the innkeeper.
          The love shown by the Samaritan sounds like the pure love of Jesus to me…

          • The Raven

            Very nice reminder Daisy.

          • John 3:16

            Romans 12 also comes to mind. You never know who you’ll reach by showing kindness to a stranger or an enemy.

            20  But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.”*+ 21  Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.+

    • Richard Long

      I agree with Burt that your indignation is righteous. One point to add to Robert’s and Burt’s. IF the WTS actually did the work of ensuring justice for widows and orphans as we nearly all wish they would, how could Jehovah fulfill His prophesies toward punishing the leaders of “His people” for their failure to do so?

      Aren’t we establishing the “season” in which we should expect the parousia by the manifestation of the “man of lawlessness”? While on earth Jesus contended with “workers of lawlessness”. Judas was the “son of destruction” but the MOL was primarily the scribes and Pharisees. No? Can you honestly imagine any party more aptly modeling the Pharisees Jesus rebuked than the WTS as we have with us today?

      • Srecko Sostar

        Thanks Richard! I like very much words you used, “Aren’t we establishing the “season”…”

      • Burt Reynolds

        Yes, you are right about the mol to be found wanting. If they all did good there would be only a judgement of the righteous. That there will be a failure to do right must happen, but still, the individual will retain the choice not to be a part of it, as many will heed the call to get out. Jehovah must know that a strong percentage will not get out, hence the prophesy. I suppose at present, they are restrained in their natural urge to give and assist others by the watchtower emphasis on just the preaching. Which is correct of course, but as Christ showed, also contained works. That there is not a balance remains at odds with my conscience. After all, if we employ the scripture that Arvil quoted about the head saying to the feet, I have no use for you, we can see that giving and assistance, as with the Good Samaritan, has a balance. If we only moved forward on our right foot, we would fall over!

        • Richard Long

          Right. Plainly said, my involvement with the WT resulted (whether their fault, mine, or both) in my becoming indifferent to the totality of the needs of others. If the afflicted person did not want my WT brand of spiritual “help”, then they received nothing.

          This state of being, the suffocating indifference, was KILLING me, and I could lament for pages all the myriad regrets that come from failure to live in the moment and assist the afflicted where I could. On the other hand, I was always the one ridiculed by associates for giving the panhandler a dollar when a quarter was the going rate, or the intersection windshield washer five bucks when a dollar was expected.

          Perhaps, it goes back to that either/or thinking fostered by the MOL influenced WT? “If I cant solve ALL of a person’s problems, then I will not attempt to help with ANY of the person’s problems.”

          And to Arvid’s point: If the WT was going to get involved in charity, they would be directing US to handle it on the local level. Now that we have reasserted our right to think for ourselves, random acts of kindness can flow as needs are encountered with the understanding that this is how Jehovah provides for “sparrows” haven fallen to the ground.

          • The Raven

            I see these discussions from the viewpoint of an outsider and I am amazed at the depth of sincere concern for not just Jehovah’s people, but all humanity. There is still good in the world, it seems… and that just makes me smile.

          • John 3:16

            2 Corinthians 9

            7  Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly* or under compulsion,+for God loves a cheerful giver.

    • e.v.g

      Jesus did not use his power for personal interests, i don’t know how or when the leadership of jw would think that they can use the resources dedicated for the good news, for the truth, to their personal interests, that’s Jesus possession I would think, they are responsible about how they are using the mines granted to them, yes!!! they are responsible about the truth they are knowing and how they are using the money, five fool virgins will pay the consequenses.

      • Srecko Sostar

        thanks evg!

        • Cathii D’Anthonii

          If I may interject some thoughts here..Having lived in,California for many years. And dealing with natural disasters often, many brothers in our area helped evacuate all persons from fire areas and flash flood areas..Locally , congregations have often helped. Also at the time of the world trade center fire.Bethel donated trucks and opened for victims to take showers and get clothes.. Individuals have often helped out others.. It’s just not our main goal..

          • Srecko Sostar

            hi Cathii! nice example to imitate.
            Official policy of WT, as i know, is that local congregation making plans on elders level and using extra members money and energy in helping fellow brothers (not what is already in bank account of specific congregation) And of course some bro and sis personally are willing to help without telling info to elders or cong. about that.

            It is difficult to put together fact how WT are registered as “charity” and by that taking tax exempt status, mean not pay any money to secular government.
            WT using voluntary work from members and save lot of money in such arrangement.
            JW members collecting money and pay “credit” for kingdom hall, but when corporation decide to sell that same hall (sometimes to another false church or other “worldly” people) members have no single euro, dollar in return. Is that justice?
            Main goal – what is main goal in GB after such kind of policy and governing over corporation and members :))
            Members have good will for sure but …

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              You said: what is main goal in GB after such kind of policy and governing over corporation and members :)). GB is nothing to do with buying and selling of hall. Is it not decided by the board of directors? For example who signed the files when WTS in New York was sold the #25 Columbia heights? Were not the board of Directors?
              Another fun is main goal in GB after such kind of policy is to buy Rolex Gold Watches worth $25000.LOL

            • Srecko Sostar

              yes Basavaraj, it is very difficult to tell who running “the show” and business. GB, Directors, shareholders, helpers, lawyers…..? and all inside inc. structure of WT and sister companies. :)))
              But as GB is spiritual church leaders and guardians of doctrines and as “appointed” over domestic and from recent time they are also “non appointed over all belongings” it is real good question to ask who are now “appointed over all belongings” ???
              And by whose authority unknown man aka board of directors get power to running Jesus belongings?? :))

            • Richard Long

              “it is real good question to ask who are now “appointed over all belongings” ???”

              Robert has plainly shown us this “final” appointment take place during the yet future parousia, therefore the master’s house is currently occupied by both faithful and evil slaves. The slaves of both sorts are currently operating under the authority of Christ and will account for their dealings when the master arrives I think the knowing of this allows us a measure of peace and removes from us the burden to “do something about it”.

              Regarding the “corporate WT”, corporations are essentially empires and therefore, by definition, in opposition to Jehovah. I think we just have to understand the current situation in light of the paradox of the true faith in apostasy. In order for the anointed remnant to be truly identified in every minute detail as the prophetic anti-typical Israel present for the onset of the parousia, things HAVE TO BE this screwed up.

              Peace be with you my dear brother.

            • Srecko Sostar

              thanks Richard (Lion heart) :)) hope you have nothing against this, just fell on my brain, mind :))))) hahahaa what kind of english expression i am using

              Just come to me while reading your first part of comment – two kind of slaves. Other christian religions can also be in that story. They also have good and bad servants inside, they also have good and stupid doctrines and interpretations, they also have some truth and some lies, exactly as WT. Soooo, i wonder what if Jesus will looking, judging altogether not only, as many of us thinking, only WT GB and those in charge in JWorg :)))
              peace with you brother! 🙂

            • Richard Long

              For what it is worth, Robert has already dismantled the assertion that JW’s are not singularly representative of the body of individuals making up the anointed remnant, the key probative evidence being the basic truths of the true name and purposes of God, the true identity and subordinate nature of Christ, and the accurate understanding and expectations for the Kingdom. By the vehement denial and opposition to these most basic truth’s in favor of the satanic Babylonish trinity and heavenly reward/eternal torment doctrines, Christendom has willfully and knowingly made herself the enemy of Jehovah. , and that would be true had the WT never declared it to be so.

              I can help you find these articles in the archives if you like, but I really think you don’t need me to.

              I do believe the WT has taught us to be far too narrow in thinking of who might be included in the great crowd. I choose to believe Jehovah’s heart is larger and his judgments more merciful than I can imagine, because, if I’m honest, I can hardly imagine his extending that mercy to me, wretched as I am.

              Re my name: My parents chose it specifically to honor a friend, but also knowing it’s meaning “Strong, like a ruler” in a fit of wishful thinking. lol

            • Srecko Sostar

              :)) human must to be balanced in their view of self. Do not thinking about self too high, but also not too law.
              stay well brother! 🙂

            • Cathii D’Anthonii

              What did Jesus say? “You will look for justice and there will be no justice.”. I could write a book on the wrongs i have witnessed, and suffered personally at the hands of brothers , family, it’s not encouraging, sometimes I wish. My brain could be reset to get rid of it all.. Thankfully we have free will to serve Jehovah, the best we can.So what we don’t stop and I don’t tell. Ive learned the hard way to smile and nod and shut up at the meetigs.There are no perfect people…

            • Richard Long

              Dear Cathii,
              Even if you never write that book, you can be sure your tribulations have been chronicled in the writings of Another, and if you can but protect, preserve and grow your faith that One will erase all memory of your sufferings. Until then, you have all of us here to share your burdens as you might allow us.

            • Cathii D’Anthonii

              Very kind of you, better to talk about all the good we can do following Jehovah what some jw spouts at the KH. Better not to share your personal life there at the hall….sad to say

            • Srecko Sostar

              Cathii do not give up! but have to add a little question – do not give up, from what??
              do not give up from your identity, from your peace, from your emotions.
              Why to silenced your self and giving fake smile to people in hall who are such as they are. Just my opinion :)) Love, peace and prosperity too you in Jesus name!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes. You’re right. No justice from people, yet plenty of justice from Jehovah. I’m not being glib about your experiences -they are all to familiar – but someone said to me once, ‘just expect it ( injustice ) because that is what they are’. It’s true, and it takes away the disappointment and helps us not only to recognise the justice of Jehovah more clearly, but also to see the difference more sharply….and thus strive for it with purpose. Try it. It works! ( I hear what you’re saying about a brain reset….me too).

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      You said: WT discourages intellectual participation in considering the problem,
      but also discourages a literal active engagement in helping. !!! Let me add to your point: It also discourages one to attain University degree which I hate.

      As I have already posted in this website in India from Jan-2017 on wards if you are a degree holder you cannot become an Elder and MS and it sounds nonsense to me. I too am not going to become an Elder because I committed a great sin by completing my degree in Electronics and Communication Engineering certified by Department of Technical Education Government of Karnataka which they call satanic because as per them Govt is controlled by Satan so certified by Satan. What a nonsense!!!.

      They never congratulated me when I completed my degree. See I completed my degree only is 2012 that is after my marriage. Only my wife did congratulated also my aged mother(now 76) and father(now 86) who are also JWS also my elder brother and sister who were JWs but they were stumbled by an Elder and are now out of the congregation since 2002.

      My father-in-law and my brother-in-laws never congratulated me because they are elders of our congregation though my wife went to them and happily shared about it.

      • Srecko Sostar

        very sad to hear!
        my congratulation to you Basavaraj, from distance :))

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      Thanks Srecko Sostar I have already given a reply to you for your comment under. By seeing
      your comments I get trained myself how to give back the answers to people like you when I meet them in the field service. It is better than the training what WTS gives in Our Christian life and Ministry meetings.

      I think you got bit orientation towards eating of non-veg (because you said: vegetarian, hehe) even in paradise if I am right!

      In that case just think why God made a smaller canine teeth for humans why it is not like that of lion and tiger? So if you question me back then then were not Tigers and Lions were not hunting in the Garden of End? If yes then how it was not attacking humans (Adam and Eve)? Well I have scriptural answer for that. Thanks very much because you made me to think how to give answers back to people like you.

      • Srecko Sostar

        i am happy to contribute in your training :))))

  • Burt Reynolds

    That’s insightful thinking to be sure! I wonder though if perfection carries the options of choice in good or bad? Certainly one tiny fault in a single cell in the human body can result in death, but does choice to choose right and wrong bring that about, or was it actually a punishment or a self inflicted wound? Certainly it was a foregone conclusion regardless of the effect of independence. Yet could it be also that the substance of life is balanced upon the same standard and that the substance of life itself does not, can not, tolerate a change in the standard of perfection. As Jehovah says, it is impossible for him to lie. So is that a choice, or a spiritual necessity of eternal life, of the substance of life, it’s very fabric? Cannot lie, is different from will not lie. One is choice, the other a restriction. If that is the case, the standard of knowing good from evil, may be a requisite to eternal life and thus to break it, would be to terminate ones own existent. A fail safe for the provider? One could give away perfect life, as a gift, just as we gift a terminal life to our children, but only the actual knowledge of what is good, or bad (for it), will preserve it. ( I’m only thinking out loud guys, only thinking! I just enjoy thinking outside the box no matter how ridiculous it may be, because creation and Jehovah are just so good to ramble through!)

    • black curtain

      Just in reply to the reason why Jehovah cannot lie, the reason is often more straight forward than is obvious. Jehovah as the supreme sovereign is in the unique position that by definition whatever he says, must be true, morally, legally, spiritually and physically. Which helps to understand why he is not given to using humour in speech I.e. Why did the chicken cross the road? Because whatever he pronounces must be true. But since we have humour, it tells us that he does too, but let me not deflect onto that topic from the context of this article. Just to iterate though, he is the only one alive that cannot lie because of his position as supreme sovereign he is not bound, limited by law, morality or any restriction whatsoever unlike the rest of us including in my view, immortals. Roberts reply to my original question answered the matter of why the 144001 won’t run off the rails, so to speak. Enjoyed your thoughts on the subjects kindest regards bc

      • Richard Long

        Really mind opening point on the impossibility of Jehovah to lie!

        If He says white is black, white becomes black. brilliant!

  • Srecko Sostar

    Second issue. :))
    The accepted view says (man was created in the image of God) that it means man have all the qualities of God, Creator only in a lesser, limited extent (whatever we can thinking when we said limited, no matter are we talking about this with perfect Adam in mind or imperfect Adam in mind, every other human after Adam)
    For example, human can love and hate, (like a god). And much more.
    Did the man has these features, characters in him on the day he was been created? (god was see all things he created and all was good) or that happened after Adam and Eve were cast from paradise?

    Can man (Adam) recognize good and evil, like God? According to Genesis 3:22 ability to know what is good and what is bad have been possible only after eating the apple :))) or other fruit, whatever.
    My stupid conclusion is such that after reading 3:22, i can tell that Adam and Eve did not have ability to recognize what is good and what is bad. But on other hand that is in contrary to statement that everything has been “good” or in today’s JW terminology “perfectly” created and have free will to choose.
    Explanation on first human and angels is that they all have free will. But using free will without any sense and ability to differentiate good from bad, it is hard to be called as “good” or “perfect” creation.
    In this questions/answers must be much more than we can imagine, interpret or explain to each other.

    • bobby6343

      Did you read Genesis 2: 15-17?

      15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

      15-Settled him in the garden of Eden to “cultivate” and take care of… So man has a purpose!
      16-“COMMAND” to the man! A law was given to obey and respect!
      17-“Not to “eat” from it! The result would be “YOU WILL CERTAINLY DIE!

      So he did recognized what was good for him. Because his God told him “Not to eat” from it!
      Obedience to God’s command is what was GOOD for him, disobedience, was “BAD” for him.

      2 Timothy 2:14 ‘Adam was NOT deceived’! So he understood very clearly the consequences of his “decision” or action… In other words, he “willfully” disobey Jehovah’s “COMMAND”. Knowing very well that it would lead to his death! “You will certainly DIE! He knew that death was Bad.

      This shows that “Free Will” was a choice! To love and obey Jehovah, or to disobey “not Love” him.

      To put it simply, his free will choice showed, and we all know the results. We don’t have to “twist” words just to show that Adam did not UNDERSTAND the consequences of his decision.

      The command from God was given to him with a clear understanding that it was a matter of obeying it because his God knows what was best for him. It was as simply as saying; “its a matter of LIFE and DEATH! Life=GOOD Death=Bad

      Genesis 3:22 Shows that by Man making his own decisions, he thinks that he is a god. That is why God says; “they become like us”. Ironic to say the least! Direct there “own steps” as if man knows better than God himself.

      That is why Jeremiah 10:23 says, “I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”

      What is Good and Bad, for the human race can only be determine by God himself. It only benefits us for the better……….

      • Srecko Sostar

        thanks bobby. I just have kind of question. If all purpose for first human was in the point, to be obedient to Commandment or to dye, then of what purpose is to tell someone you have free will to choose, but if you will do different then i am expecting from you, you will dye (i am going to kill you). :))

        • Arvid Fløysand

          Hello Srecko 🙂
          i just saw your comment and would like to reply to you on this…its a good question..and the way i see this is that there has alwayes been only one good “way”…
          but it is obvious that Jehovah let all his “sons” humans and angels ,make the decision on their own if they really by their own will is willing to go on that way…and yes you are right…it is a choice between life ore death..(Deuteronomy 30:11-20)..should be easy to make that decision thoug…the problem came into our world when satan presented the lie that there is not only one but two ways to life…that the bad way leading to death,is a way to life…and satan introdused a new bad habbit for humans …the bad habbit of find somone to blame…Adam and Eve had never done that before…there had never been a reason to blame anyone…but now satan said they should blame Jehovah for not telling the truth..(later on Eve blamed satan and Adam blamed Eve and Jehovah)..and also that Jehovah held something good back for them…satan said :”Jehovah know that if you eat of that fruit,your eyes will be opened and you will be like God…knowing good and bad…and you will not die”

          in other word …”you will have life in yourself…like God…be undependant”
          satan ofcourse know very well that no one can chose to have life in themself and be like God….it is only Jehovah who have the legal right to give imorality…
          We can compare this with the blessings who only the father could give to his sons.
          A son could not just decide to put that blessing on himself…it had to be given him by his father…only one way.

          Well Adam and Eve chosed the bad way…togeter with satan..to try to take something that only Jehovah himself have the legal right to give…

          So there is a decision for us to make…two ways..one leading to life…and one to death.
          when we have made that decision…then it will be by our Godgiven free will to WALK on that way…

          • The Raven

            Arvid quote:
            “later on Eve blamed satan and Adam blamed Eve and Jehovah)”

            LOL! Yes they did! What a mess! Bad choices and blame as well. Very good point, Arvid.

          • Srecko Sostar

            Arvid, yes satan used half lie/half true.
            true; after eating you will know good and bad (gen 3;22)
            lie; after eating you will not die (they are not with us today)

        • bobby6343

          The only purpose that they were created in the first place, Love! Their free will was to express their love for their creator. They were created in God’s own image and the qualities of God himself, even in a limited measure as compare to God himself. Too bad they choose themselves rather then to express their love and gratitude to their creator.

          A simple law (commandment) to obey, and a simple reply (obedience) of that law would have express their love and trust (free will) to the creator of the Universe.

          All I can say with my extremely limited knowledge, we all have to make choices in our daily live, for better or worst.

          The only good thing that will come out of this outcome, is that it will never be repeated ever again in human history…..What part of history do we want to be on?

          • Srecko Sostar

            hi bobby, yeah love need to be above all.
            a)very poor information in genesis about that event give us to many dilemmas.
            b)similar is also with angels, what happened inside (words, thoughts, feelings…)
            c)looking from my/our personal, universal human experience it is normal to making good and bad decisions, and that is only way to make progress and learn, to change things, or to go down :))
            The most important lessons in life, the most powerful transformations of any kind inside human soul, hearth coming only through pain, mistake, love and hate.

            About that how such thing (Adam) will never be repeated again, i am not so sure :)))

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          You said but if you will do different what purpose is to tell someone you have free will to choose?

          So you mean to say that a father has no right to ask his own son why he is not attending the classes in his school even after providing everything and paid fees to the school for his child? The child does differently by not going to school (=free will of choice) will you allow your child to continue or punish him? Now apply your analogy here I am expecting from you, if you don’t I am going to kill you?. :). Everlasting and immortal life is more precious than the fee you pay to school for your child.

          You cannot give an everlasting and immortal life to a disobedient person. Well think of the chaos what will happen if you give an immortal life to Satan? If you say that if all knowing Jehovah foreknew whether a person will obey or not then Why test? Well the answer is let it be proved openly with everyone. Let a 1st rank be given to a person after undergoing rigorous University exam even though some knows that a particular student is very intelligent.

          See let me give one more illustration Jehovah knows that humans will get hungry and a constant supply of food is required. Then why the all-knowing Jehovah created a system in that way. He could have created our body with self-nourished just like plants with photosynthesis principle. So the point is if you want something you need to work to get that. Well can you give your money just like that to someone stranger? You can say Satan was not a stranger to Jehovah, but let obedience be proved first. Otherwise what difference is here between foal of a horse and of donkey? (= The same is said in our old Kannada proverbial question Kathaygu Kudharaygu Yeenu Veythyasaa?) aptly fits here. So similarly the everlasting and immortal life is more precious.

          So to get one has to use it properly not standing before a speedy train saying free will of choice.

          As far me whether Jehovah gives me everlasting life or not I will still obey him. Even if Jehovah becomes a dictator (which will never be) I will still obey him because HE has right to ask, just as a father has right to ask his own son.

          If you still think this way is not correct what Jehovah did then in your heart you don’t love Jehovah, then act with your free will of choice and get the consequences: Duet:30:19-20.

    • Richard Long

      And to add to bobby6343’s point.

      Perhaps given some more time in innocence, the “love of” Jehovah might have been so permanently with the first human family that it might never be shaken. Satan knew that the iron would never be hot again outside this one brief window of opportunity, and so strike he did – with a blow that would only be effective at that one precise “moment” in time or set of conditions.

      • bobby6343

        What about the many times Adam spent with God during the “breezy” part of the day? That counts very much to a personal relationship with Jehovah himself. Where is the excuse?

        • Richard Long

          Not excusing. Understanding. And, also, I’m analyzing and speculating, not to be considered as speaking with authority on the matter.

          Eve was new to the mix, forming a relationship between three, expanding the parameters and dynamics of a relationship of two and providing the first opportunity for Adam to have a “choose between” moment where competing emotions might influence him.

          I’m saying, it seems to me, that particular attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty was meticulously timed for maximum effect on a target at it’s most vulnerable moment.

          • bobby6343

            Although Eve was deceived, Adam was not! Therefore the entire issue of obeying was in Adam!

            For instance read Numbers 30: 3-8
            “And if a woman makes a vow to Jehovah or she imposes a vow of abstinence on herself when she is young and living in the house of her father

            4 and her father hears her vow or her abstinence vow that she has imposed on herself* and her father offers no objection, all her vows will stand, and every abstinence vow that she has imposed on herself will stand.

            5 But if her father forbids her when he hears that she has imposed vows or abstinence vows on herself, it will not stand. Jehovah will forgive her because her father forbade her.

            6 “However, if she should marry a husband while under her vow or the rash promise that she has imposed on herself

            7 and her husband hears of it and offers no objection on the day he hears of it, her vows or her abstinence vows that she has imposed on herself will stand. 8 But if her husband forbids her on the day he hears of it, he may annul the vow or the rash promise that she imposed on herself, and Jehovah will forgive her.

            Did you see the last part… and Jehovah will forgive her!

            • Richard Long

              Are we arguing, or am I being instructed?

              If I am being instructed, thank you for your efforts to lift me from my ignorance.

              If we are arguing, I quit.

            • bobby6343

              You are NOT being instructed nor have given any tone as to treat you with ignorance! Sad that you have delicate feelings. A simple converse you turn into a issue. I won’t reply to you aging in the future because you have demonstrated unreasonable thinking…

              I do not consider this site a place to argue or to treat others with disrespect.

              You said: “If I am being instructed, thank you for your efforts to lift me from my ignorance.” You could not hide your sarcasm!

            • Richard Long

              Hello… I DO in fact have very, VERY sensitive feelings, and DO in fact, feel quite ignorant, especially given that I legitimately and honestly cannot tell if your comment was intended to instruct, argue or support.

              I sincerely apologize for causing offense.

            • bobby6343

              No offense on your part, I too apologize to you. This is one of the peaceful sites that I have ever been on.

            • Jamie Mac

              until the next Francis trundles in 🙂

            • The Raven

              Hello Bobby. I think it may have been the exclamation points that gave that impression. Disqus has limited ways to express how we feel. Italics would be nice, so would being able to embed quotes.
              We can sometimes seem abrasive without intending to be. I tend to use caps for emphasis and realize I may appear to be shouting. lol !
              Just an observation and I do like what both you and Richard had to say on this subject.
              🙂

            • bobby6343

              Now that is great advice, the use of Italics to bring my point in more softly…

              Thank you

            • The Raven

              Trust me I’ve been in your shoes before. Beverly thought I should have been shot out of the air right after I flew in here! LOL!
              You’re alright, man!
              🙂

            • Daisy

              Can’t resist jumping on your soothing comment by way of squirming out of what I thought was trying to be loquacious but …instead ….appearing as less than eloquent in my ‘hiding in the bushes ‘ remark about dear sis Thinking. So sorry Thinking.
              Not to harp on it but lots gets misunderstood in translation.
              Best to keep being sensitive, but not touchy!
              Great to see the blossoming brotherly bromances forming here!

            • The Raven

              I don’t know what “hiding in the bushes” is about, Daisy. But I do know what it is to be misunderstood. As I assured Bev I am sitting here grinning like an idiot most of the time. I take no offense to any of these things and I apologized to her if she thought me brash. But I do love a raucous atmosphere at times. As long as it’s not mean. You are all a source of knowledge and great fun too!
              🙂

            • Joseph S.

              Hahaha, we think alike…….
              I was just thinking about the blossoming Bromances yesterday on this site!!

            • The Raven

              I must have missed something here. I don’t have a clue what Hiding in bushes or bromance is about.

            • Richard Long

              Actually, it’s more Francis fallout, if you can believe it.

            • The Raven

              Well, I’m still clueless. Is it something I should be concerned with? Daisy’s and Joseph’s comments don’t make much sense to me.

            • Richard Long

              No, it was a misunderstanding that time will take care of.

            • The Raven

              Ok. I can dig it. Thanks, Richard.

            • Joseph S.

              Hiding in the bushes
              Meaning, you were a huge contributor in the comments section/ but now you just enjoy the articles and others peoples comments . And you pop in every once in a while.
              Bromance
              Meaning, a close friendship between men.

            • Richard Long

              Example. David & Jonathan. Jesus & John.

            • Joseph S.

              Exactly !!!

            • The Raven

              So that’s what it means! Thanks. But I like everyone here. I still reply quite a bit. But certainly not as much as I did when Francis was still here. It’s all good, man!

            • Joseph S.

              Your not hiding in the bushes, your posting regular! Its not directed at you, just giving you the definition. There’s a lot of of lurkers hiding in the bushes!!
              Just keep being you, you rock!!

            • The Raven

              10/4 Joseph !
              🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              PLEASE……no police codes Raven. We have just had a string of 5/7s, 33/10s and worse, a 2435/44/67 sub-section 4, 12 ‘Bookum Danno’s and 17 ‘Freeze! St. Ives’ Vice!’ ( not to mention the flood of acronyms coming on site that leave me wondering for hours…GT JC MOL WOMBAT TTYROC & ITBWTW. oh, and BTW, this is just a joke, or TIJAJ).?

            • The Raven

              hahaha! We used that code and others all the time on our radios in construction. Truckers also use it. lol.

            • Richard Long

              yeah…. how come they always use 5150 after my name?……

            • The Raven

              LOL!

            • J.M.J.

              I too must be hiding in the bushes . I do realize that sometimes the comments after can be up building and enlightening almost as much as the main topic . I thank JEHOVAH that this is possible .I think that what we put in writing unless we use capitals ,and shout carry no emphasis on what we are thinking and writing can be mis read ,sometimes the reader is at fault as well as sometimes the writer .I always say if there is love ,it will all work out .

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely. I am learning a lot about electricians on this site, not to mention computer wizards. Women are still a bit of a mystery.

            • Thinking

              She’ll be right mate..dont worry about it 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              To be fair Bobby, I think you will find that is Richard’s sense of humour, which, to be fair, is self effacing, but also very insightful. Please don’t take offence. I would say Richard was simply saying that you made an emphatic and insightful point that cannot be argued. Which is right. ?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think Bobby has done that to us both. It’s a good point and cannot really be argued. Yet. Others may think differently. I shall remain at the lower table.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a very good point, a good illustration.

            • Srecko Sostar

              yes bobby, but then we have problem, why to punish Eve if she was deceived??

              Today attitude to women in general among JWorg as in old times is very similar! And do you see what is the implication to have such view and attitude?
              Put perfect or imperfect human (man or woman) in the same position – result is the same.
              Are victim have to take blame for that?
              If such statement in bible about Eve is correct, that she was “deceived”, how is possible that poor woman have to be punished because of the thief who is very clever and cunning, tricky, crafty with powerful intelligence and who have, who knows, how much long life experience he have, succeed in fraud??

              Second thing that i never heard before that someone was mentioned is this: We all thinking that trouble has been started with Paradise Story, apple, Adam and Eve and serpent. I am thinking that issue started in some other space and time, much more before. What if satan was already have some issue with god, some arguing, and some hard dialog?? It is possible.
              And if god was so resolute and quickly in punishing Adam and Eve as human actors of drama, why he not doing the same with satan??
              Does The 1. Commandment (do not sin, because you will dye) is only for human creatures and not for spiritual creatures?
              Does existing one sort of justice for Earth and another for Heaven?

              Just food for thinking :))) or am I also deceived by satan like Eve? or like Adam and asking questions that is rebellious?

          • Burt Reynolds

            I know what you mean. My wife is always right too.

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          Nice point better than JW WT studies on Sunday

    • Burt Reynolds

      To be made in the image of Jehovah….an image is a reflection, so it might be easier to view our insights as existing as a reflection. In other words, an essence of the whole, a sense of what happens. As to knowing right from wrong, then in the above context, one can assume that they knew taking of the fruit was wrong. Thus they had an understanding of right and wrong, but not necessarily in the same measure. We still do not know the difference between right and wrong in so many ways now, that is why we have the saying, ‘there is no limit to the amount of evil that a person can do, when they think they are doing good.’ The witnesses attitude to shunning and following the watchtower’s dictat on child abuse reporting are but two prime examples. Politicians attitude is another. Sadly though, All of us are affected.

      • Srecko Sostar

        fine reasoning, like your searching for understanding 🙂

  • Jordan Seager

    My goodness…. that’s deep.

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    To,
    The Respected Anointed Brother Robert King,
    The above article and the reply what you have made to black curtain especially the sentence And just as it is impossible for God to lie, it will be impossible for the immortals to ever betray the One who gave them life in themselves is a great thing. The WTS never bring this point. before seeing your website in 2010 I thought that Jesus, the anointed 144000 and ourselves must always obey Jehovah to have life. I thought then what difference is between earthly people of great crowd and Jesus and the anointed ones because all must show obedience forever if we need life? But your enlightenment threw the truth and I am satisfied. This really shows who is the real anointed one. Well I can openly say now that GB itself is the Man of Lawlessness (MOL).

  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    The point you mentioned, that they will be like God in every sense,that is a broad statement. That fact is there is No-One like Jehovah and it is a fact that all creation even those with the gift of immortality will be dependent on Jehovah for Knowledge. Since not even Christ has his own initiative for what he beholds the father doing he himself does so he is indefinitely dependent on Jehovah and seeks to please his father. Those chosen for eternal life can never reach that of Jehovahs wisdom nor power. Jehovah will forever command the respect of his creatures therefore, eternal life in oneself does not give anyone the right it is only Jehovah alone to decide what is right or wrong even Jesus said it is Jehovah your God you myst render sacred service to day an night. That means forever!

    • Richard Long

      Gonna have to say agree to disagree on this one, Revv.

  • “the final members of the new creation are being prepared to take the stage before angels and men in order to bring the issue squarely to centerstage”

    well ot aint going to be me unfortunately because i cant do anything right and Jehovah doesnt like me.

    • Richard Long

      Or, maybe He loves you most, so has to silently suffer your indignities alongside you in order to answer your accuser! You’ve been “Job-ed” about as bad as anyone I’ve known and still wake up each day trying to find Jehovah in the sunrise, so I imagine that puts a lot or weight on your side of the scales. Just sayin’…

      • to be honest Richard, im sick of them both; being one of billions of casualties in a six thousand year timeline kicked around like a puppy at a pet store by the feet of issues of God and god’s. i dont want to be a part of it effecting me anymore and i want to be free in peace and happieness away from their delimas and issues and controversies. i just want the hell out of here where they can duke it out away from me.

        • Richard Long

          I can certainly understand why you feel that way, DA. Your life would have broken me many times over. I just want so badly for you to get a “win”, to find some peace.

          • ty

          • i wonder why Jehovah didnt resurrect Job’s family after enduring guinea their pig treatment?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Because in those days the ransome had not been paid and the time to illustrate the meaning of the word, the value of the ransome had not yet arrived. But in Jehovah’s mercy, they will be resurrected.

            • Daisy d

              I know that the redeemer lives and that in the end will stand on the earth.
              And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I will see him with mine own eyes, I and not another.
              How my heart yearns within me!
              Job 19:25-27

            • I have had about enough of you

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Robert, I left you a contact note. Thanks.

            • The Raven

              I have noticed the outpouring of love and concern the folks here have for each other and how they rallied around you to try to help you. They all have to deal with a world of pain and injustice as well, some of them more than others but it does not diminish their faith one bit. It strengthens it.
              I understand anger, frustration, feelings of inadequacy and hopelessness. I think we all do.
              But lashing out at the One who will make this right only serves to hobble you. That’s what the devil wants you to do. He wants you to blame God for everything he and his miserable followers have done.
              But you already know this. Don’t you?
              You mad? Join the club. We all are. But that’s not what defines us as Jehovah’s people.
              It’s our love for each other and God that distinguishes us and it will also be what saves us in the end. You want justice and righteousness and all the BS to end? Well SO DO WE! Hang in there.
              Don’t be caught railing at God when TSHTF.
              That’s my two cents, man. Take it or leave it.

            • John 3:16

              We all have problems that we struggle to deal with, D.A. I can’t imagine being in your shoes, and I especially can’t imagine being in Job’s. It’s all in how we handle it, which is what we learn in Job. Jehovah will make it better, for you and everyone else out there that endures this cruel world. Our job is to hold on to our faith through it all like Job did. His story is a story of hope and perseverence, as well as inner reflection.

              Sometimes we want to be like Jonah and run away from it all. I’ve been there too, but that’s what Satan wants. We don’t get anywhere by being that way even if it makes us feel better for a bit. But blaming Jehovah, and indulging our grievances leads to a dark path. Many lessons in the bible teach us that, not only do we not always get what we want, but also that we can’t possibly comprehend it all. That’s where our faith has to come in. It might not make sense why this has to happen, or that, but without faith we start to question Jehovah’s plans. And from there we lose our trust in Him. We never want that attitude to overtake us, because it’s so easy to just keep going.

              Remember the story of King Ahab and Naboth? Ahab didn’t get what he wanted and went home and sulked about it. Not that he was a good guy to begin with obviously, but it shows us where that dark path of not trusting in Jehovah, and wanting things our way can lead if we lose sight of the bigger picture. Satan is waiting to strike any chance he can, and it’s all that much easier for him when we’re down. Don’t give him that opportunity, and please don’t get yourself banned from here. Hang in there 🙂

            • The Raven

              DA, I looked for this for you. Take heart, man. When this is all over with you will look back and see that Jehovah was always right there with those who cry out to Him. He does not forget us.

              Psalms
              37:1-40

              Of David.
              א [Aleph]
              37 Do not be upset* because of evil men
              Or envious of wrongdoers.+
              2 They will quickly wither like grass+
              And shrivel like green new grass.
              ב [Beth]
              3 Trust in Jehovah and do what is good;+
              Reside in the earth,* and act with faithfulness.+
              4 Find exquisite delight* in Jehovah,
              And he will grant you the desires of your heart.
              ג [Gimel]
              5 Commit your way to* Jehovah;+
              Rely on him, and he will act in your behalf.+
              6 He will make your righteousness shine like daybreak,
              And your justice like the midday sun.
              ד [Daleth]
              7 Keep silent before Jehovah+
              And wait expectantly* for him.
              Do not be upset by the man
              Who succeeds in carrying out his schemes.+
              ה [He]
              8 Let go of anger and abandon rage;+
              Do not become upset and turn to doing evil.*
              9 For evil men will be done away with,+
              But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.+
              ו [Waw]
              10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;+
              You will look at where they were,
              And they will not be there.+
              11 But the meek will possess the earth,+
              And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.+
              ז [Zayin]
              12 The wicked man plots against the righteous;+
              He grinds his teeth at him.
              13 But Jehovah will laugh at him,
              For He knows that his day will come.+
              ח [Heth]
              14 The wicked draw their swords and bend* their bows
              To bring down the oppressed and the poor,
              To slaughter those whose way is upright.
              15 But their sword will pierce their own heart;+
              Their bows will be broken.
              ט [Teth]
              16 Better is the little of the righteous one
              Than the abundance of many wicked ones.+
              17 For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
              But Jehovah will support the righteous.
              י [Yod]
              18 Jehovah is aware of what the blameless go through,*
              And their inheritance will last forever.+
              19 They will not be put to shame in the time of disaster;
              In the time of famine they will have plenty.
              כ [Kaph]
              20 But the wicked will perish;+
              The enemies of Jehovah will vanish like glorious pastures;
              They will vanish like smoke.

        • Joseph S.
          • The Raven

            Thanks, Joseph. That was a really good talk. I like how he stressed that first and foremost is knowing Jehovah. Everything else is second.

  • To,
    The Respected Anointed Brother Robert King,

    do you think reasonable people who accept that violent bullies who murder, maim and steal are not to be desirable neighbors, are victims of these bullies? yes or no?

    • Richard Long

      I’ll leave it to Robert to answer, DA, but I can say the question is a little hard to follow. Maybe rephrase it?

      • Robert knows what im talking about.

        • Richard Long

          Will you be expecting his answer publicly or privately?

          • i wouldnt know what to expect other then my faith is usually correct in that sufficient badness will result or nothing.

            Matt 6:34
            Rom 12:15

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