When is the hour of test?

//When is the hour of test?

Friday, May 5

God put Abraham to the test.Gen. 22:1.

Picture an elderly man trudging up a mountainside. He is making what must be the hardest journey of his life. It is not his age that makes this trek so daunting. Abraham may be about 125 years old, but he is still vigorous. Following him is a younger man, perhaps 25 years of age. It is his son Isaac, who is carrying firewood. Abraham has a knife and the means to start a fire. Jehovah has asked him to sacrifice his own son! Abraham was facing what was likely the greatest test of his faith. Abraham did not obey God blindly. Instead, he obeyed because he could see. With eyes of genuine faith, he saw that his heavenly Father, Jehovah, never asks His faithful servants to do anything that will result in their lasting harm. Abraham knew that if he obeyed Jehovah, his God would bless him and his beloved son. On what was that faith based? On knowledge and experience.

COMMENTARY

Jehovah’s Witnesses are facing the greatest test of their spiritual lives. As it stands the Watchtower has indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witnesses with the notion that the way to life is simply following the directions of the Governing Body. Seems simple enough. Yet, virtually everything the Watchtower has taught on the modern fulfillment of prophecy is wrong —and I mean everything.

It all begins with the artfully contrived false story that Christ began ruling the world in 1914. Supposedly Satan was hurled down from heaven then too and the world has been experiencing his great anger ever since. Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that the wild beast suffered the prophesied mortal wound during the First World War, but has long since recovered.

And although most JW’s probably are not even aware of it, the Watchtower teaches that people of the world began receiving the 666 mark of the beast back in 1922. Yes, according to the Watchtower the hour of judgment began long ago, also known as the hour of test that Jesus said was coming upon the entire world.

What an incredible load of hokum Jehovah’s Witnesses have been fed!

The hour of test is related to the coming of Christ, which is obvious from the context of Revelation 3:10-11, where Jesus states: “Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth. I am coming quickly. Keep holding fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown.” 

 If we hold fast to our decision to worship Jehovah and we support the Kingdom by preaching the good news, we will be kept from falling during the present period of testing, “the hour of test.” —WT May 15, 2003 

 Although the Watchtower contradictorily teaches that Christ has already come, but is still coming, it is obvious that his coming initiates the hour of test. No doubt that hour of test is the same “one hour” that the eighth king rules the world. That symbolic “one hour” commences after the fatally wounded beast comes back to life. Rather than the ridiculous notion that the Anglo-American victors of WWI experienced a deathly wound and miraculously recovered, the fatal wounding of the head of the beast has yet to occur.

Needless to say, the sudden collapse of the Anglo empire would be a catastrophe unparalleled in all human history. Surely, the utter crash of the present  political and economic system is what is depicted in the book of Revelation with the opening of the sixth seal. Here is what it says: “And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: ‘Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”’

Since the kings of the earth and the high officials and military commanders are among those pleading with the mountains and rocks to provide protection from Christ, it is apparent that they the feel vulnerable and exposed due to the failure of the present institutions that have ruled over them —symbolized as the sun, moon and stars. Even the rich are reduced to hiding in caves, as it were —signifying the failure of their money and wealth.

What is symbolized by their pleading with the mountains to hide them from the One seated on the throne? Since the great earthquake is an indirect result of Christ coming to power, their pleading for shelter from some other source other than the Lamb signifies that during the hour of test terrified humanity will look to reconstitute human government after the present system crashes. Anything, no matter how tyrannical, is better than accepting the Kingdom of Christ.

Hence, mankind will be self-condemned for preferring to live under the beast that Satan will provide them then, instead of submitting themselves to Jehovah’s then-ruling Kingdom. 

2017-05-05T11:57:32+00:00 May 5th, 2017|Commentary|487 Comments
  • Thinking

    Apparently we no longer teach what the mark of the beast is…the brothers now say they do not know what the mark of the beast means or represents…that we have to wait and see..they also said they no longer know wether the buying or selling is symbolic or literal..and that we need to wait and see..they have acknowledged they don’t understand these things as they once thought they did.
    My son watched all of the broadcasts and informed me of this so I cannot point you to where and whom gave this talk,,..but I’m starting to rethink on my poor attitude as to keeping abreast with these broadcasts……

    • Apparently Bethel does not grasp the ramifications of putting the mark of the beast off to the future. The 666 marking comes after the beast suffers the fatal head wound, which they still say happened during WWI. The fatal head wound comes about as a result of Satan being thrown down from heaven, which happens as a result of the Kingdom coming to power. So, the upshot is, no 666 marky, no Kingdom come. Oh what a tangled web we weave…

      • Thinking

        Yes it is rather isn’t it..l

    • Richard Long

      This may be only a temporary condition, and is admittedly​ a personal opinion, but right now I am uninterested in eating more rotten fruit. Eventually, I suppose, once my footing is more sure, I will have to start taking a closer look to determine if there is ANY good fruit to be seen.

      • Burt Reynolds

        You will never know Richard. Only Jehovah can read the heart. The only way to avoid Dispair is to be a pessimist like me. When was the last time you saw a dissapointed pessimist?!

        • Francis Bencharles

          Happy pessimist day to you Burt!

        • Jamie Mac

          Or an overweight cyclist 🙂

          • Burt Reynolds

            Or a poor politician or an honest one….

            • Brian

              One in the same!?

      • Thinking

        Try to look at it this way Brother……and I say this because this is what I have to do…..sifting thru the rotten fruit….is actually developing spiritual maturity …..it will strengthen us even more as the day draws near……amongst that rotten fruit you got a lot of good fruit….without that good fruit you wouldn’t be here today…..so don’t discard all of the fruit whatever you do….that’s a trap Satan wants you to fall into…..you have been given a gift from Jehovah now….he has unveiled your eyes to a certain degree …..now you can identify the rotten fruit much more easily……you are now wising up ….becoming more solid with the truth ….at the moment you are going thru a stage or phase…..as we all have to…..you will get thru it…and then move thru another phase….hey I have gone thru so many changes and phases it’s unreal..
        It’s is early days for you brother….at first I was never going to go to a meetimg again or use any mags or ever witness or even have a bible study…. I have resumed all of them…but now I own my own spituality….I have my own personal ministry..and yes I do go in FS….and yes I use mags and pamphlets ..because they WORK…..I have adapted……and will continue to with more time….you will to brother …we are all works in progress….I bet in time you will say to me one day…..hey thinking …guess what I’m doing ….and I will laugh fondly with you…..because you now ..are me eight years ago…..

        • Richard Long

          I know, right? I’m such a spaz right now! I am already laughing with you. I know I’ll get there when I need to be there.

          • Thinking

            Haha..I am just an older spaz than you…lol….

    • Brian

      From what I can glean from the scriptures is that the mark of the beast will be the attitude and the actions (heart condition)of people in relation to what the beast represents, no doubt when it actually turns up it will be promoting the best most fairest system of the earth that mankind has ever had and it will be standing in direct opposition to Gods kingdom and even promoting itself as such. So those that will want to put their trust in the nobles and agree with its program will receive the mark of the beast as they have rejected the real kingdom for the fake one, of course there would have to be many signs going on at the time to indicate to people that they are in fact rejecting Gods kingdom as the second death i don’t imagine will be metered out without the knowledge of the people receiving it.
      Of course you can just take this as my opinion but it does seem to be what the whole story is about.

      • Beverly kenyon

        I’ll take your opinion Brian and give it some thought as it sounds logical. Apart from attitude and actions of people then (heart condition), won’t they then also benefit materially and physically from having that mark whilst ones who reject the fake kingdom will no doubt have to go without the bare necessities of life and put their absolute faith in The Real Kingdom of God that he will rescue them and if it comes down to the bitter end its better to go to Hades than to Gehenna because that will be everyone who is alive at that time, their last chance for keeping faithful and loyal to Jehovah and His King and their absolute last chance for everlasting life, so it would be unbelievable to lose that chance of life to just live on for a short while in the fake kingdom then you’re gone for evermore! We should fear the One who can kill both the soul and body. Matt 10:28. And shouldn’t the WT be teaching JW’s not to take the mark of the beast that’s coming with the fake kingdom that people will be admiring and putting their trust in! Not putting their trust in nobles. Pslms 146:3. A scripture they teach! Oh, I’ve just remembered, that scripture applies to world governments and Babylon and people received the mark of the Beast years ago, it doesn’t apply anymore, it’s done and dusted! Week in and week out JW’s study the Bible and they can’t see the wood for the trees and how they’re being mislead!

        • Brian

          Hi Beverly, yes the Watchtower should be teaching those that the mark is yet to come and what it really is, but it is no doubt difficult for people to throw off the old beliefs and apply the ones that really matter at the time. It is not as simple as just reviewing one issue at a time either but going back to square one I don’t think will ever be on the agenda as they would lose their power of the monster that they have created.

        • Robert called it type of phych shock; mental block.
          phych shutdown. he made a good point, probably better then even he realized. but for others too in the Kingdom Hall’s, they are livin good. BAM! earthquake

          • Beverly kenyon

            Well DA, when ones are being drip fed the same regurgitated grey unexciting spiritual food week in week out a person will mentally shutdown, block it all out. I suppose it’s a sort of safety mechanism to to stop from going over the edge with the absolute dreariness of it all. But the earthquake you’re talking about is soon going to shake them up out of their mental stupor….BAM!

            • Richard Long

              If we’re honest, didn’t we all have to take 1914, and by extension the whole false parousia on faith, because it surely never made sense to me outside the ” spiritual paradise”. Being the “source” of my first hearing God’s personal name earned the WT some rope to hang themselves with. And , surprise! They’ve done just that.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I believed the 1914 thing I was told about as it was fact and actually happened but now I know it really wasn’t a ‘proper’ world war as it was in reality confined to Europe mainly so that was an exaggeration on their part and as for the parousia I always secretly thought, what exactly is Jesus doing now he’s back as everything in the world is still unequal and a real mess..what they were telling me didn’t make sense! It’s like LH said, they’re demeaning Jesus Christ by making him look weak and useless why teaching that fat lie! Disgusting! So, yeah, they have earned the right to hang themselves with that very long rope. Poetic justice!

        • Huldah

          Israelites are a good example. When they stood before the Red Sea most lost heart because they didn’t absolutely trust Jehovah. Later, they compromised and refused to go into Canaan to fight.
          10/12 of the spies did not have faith.
          Moses Joshua Caleb had real faith. Seems like we’ll need that kind of faith in the face of the mark.
          As you say, the faith that Jehovah will come through for us.
          Mundane meeting attendance and rituals don’t create that sort of faith.

      • Thinking

        I agree wth you 🙂

      • Richard Long

        Speculation:
        Couldn’t the mark be something as simple as the Devil knowing his own. Jehovah’s own are marked invisibly, on their hearts and minds, are they not? (Again, sorry, no time for Bible lookup between jobs)

        • “For you are the children of your father the devil and you love to do the evil things he does. He is a
          murderer … always hated the truth … for he is a liar…” – John 8:44

          thats your beastly mark

          • Huldah

            Your onto something here. I’ve seen this sort of vicious hatred of the truth in some close witness relatives. They become vengeful and rage filled when you make any attempt to break their delusion with the truth.

            2Thess 2
            9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan+ with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders*+ 10 and every unrighteous deception+ for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,+ 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

        • Brian

          Maybe, the Devil is going to power up this thing (beast), and what would seem to be the whole purpose of it is to catch out the “chosen ones” amongst all of mankind and to put them also under compulsion to “worship the beast” and by doing so annul to plans of God, the rest would seem to be a side show. As it reads it would seem that the only ones that come off victorious from the beast are in fact the chosen ones. Rev 20: 4-6 “And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the axe for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshipped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
          This would indicate that even the “great crowd” has taken the mark of the beast in some way shape or form as they are also counted amongst the “dead” and their names will not be written in the “book of life” until after the 1000 years, it is just that they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb at sometime before or during the tribulation that makes them the great crowd.
          PS I have this propensity to assume that when I right something without scriptural references that everybody knows what the scriptures are already…..my bad!

  • Huldah

    Thanks for writing about the “hour of test”! I’ve wondered about it for years. It’s so refreshing to see someone anyone say something anything on it.

    I was barely able to find anything on the whole Watchtower Library. I scanned the titles of many older talks that I have access to. Nothing

    Except one old talk by Br Ulysses Glass
    1980s maybe.
    It’s called “Earth’s Hour of Test is On”
    He seemed to say that we’ve been in the hour of test since the early 20th century. He said the test is whether we are for God’s Kingdom or the world.
    Applied it to now, anyway, but I don’t know if that’s in writing anywhere.

    It kinda made sense since I saw so many witnesses living perfunctory versions of the truth while being more excited about the world. I thought they were falling prey to the operation of error/delusion and not passing the ongoing test. I was fond of saying ” Now is the hour of test.”
    Maybe not.

    It is called an hour so it lines up with the one hour of rule nicely. Makes sense.100+ years is a pretty long “hour if test”.

  • Francis Bencharles

    The last hour is the time period that the 10 kings rule with the 4th beast of Daniel 7 for “one hour”. My take on it is that this 4th beast of Daniel (the really fierce one) will only rule for 10 months (ten horns). Just my opinion!

    • Burt Reynolds

      To ‘have a take’ on scripture defies and denies the truth of the bible. As the scripture points out to such ones who would assume as much, that man cannot lean on his own understanding, and that the bible is inspired of God…..not man. The Boreans illustrated the scripture’s truth for us by their refusal to listen to Paul, without first reading the supporting scriptures that proved his words; proved they were fact from the bible; Built their house upon rock, not sand so that it can be washed away with the next ‘take’ on the scripture. The scripture is not a mere matter of taste, as with some cookery show to please the palate another way as divisions and sects would have us do. To ‘tickle the ears’. Quite the opposite. If you do not cook by the stated recipie what you have is inedible unscriptural food. To move away from the scripture to incite debate and arguement is not our role. If we have a role at all, it is to imitate the Boreans by referring all things to the scriptures to prove its mettle, to correct and set things straight if not, from the bible. ‘My take’ has no place here and is not worthy of the breath it be spoken with. We are not here to have an opinion, but merely to reflect in all ways, that which the scriptures tells us is true. The watchtower has ‘takes’…..’it is evident….’ (Generations) and look where that has got them.

      • Francis Bencharles

        You are clearly the knower of all current and past truth, so thank you for the correction. I am your humble servant Mr. Burt!

        • Burt Reynolds

          There is no past truth. There is no current truth. How can there be a truth that is either current or past? Truth is eternal. Truth never changes. Just as Jehovah says. And I have no need of a servant either. You are hardly likely to do as you are asked.

          • Richard Long

            And even only seeing your side of the exchange, I’m pretty confident you feel like you need a shower after that.

            • Burt Reynolds

              You’ll have to ungag him on your page Richard lest he gets away with another like Victor did.

            • Richard Long

              Do you mean you think I should reengage or that I somehow weaken myself by not closely observing an enemy in my midst? It is troublesome to me knowing the “coarseness” encroaching into this space you mentioned has been carried here on my words. Equally troublesome is the violence to my spirit done by the reading of that ones words. It is literally like resting at the shopping mall knowing that the sweet elderly lady sitting next to you has sarin gas hidden in her oxygen tank.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Richard I was mentioning the language creeping in generally. Not pointing fingers. We all express ourselves differently and I am certainly no angel when I hit my fingers with a hammer. I just feel a purity for this site as we all do. I’m sorry if you took it personally. I didn’t mean for you to do that. As for unblocking, it’s the same issue for me if people seek to draw away and though I am by no means perfect, I just feel that it’s one thing to express opinions, challenge and learn, but another to seed doubt that is clearly contrary to the bible, even if it does contain issues that suggest agreement to cloud the matter or disguise it. We either defend and value the truth, or leave the gate unguarded. We are at the thin end of the wedge. I do not own this site so the responsibility is not mine, but we either defend As we did on the ministry, or we stay silent and walk away. This is just my opinion as a guest on this site.

            • Richard Long

              Don’t be sorry Burt, the shoe fit me so I am wearing it, that’s all. As expressed previously. I do not understand the reaction I have to certain personalities here but I do understand I am supposed to learn something about myself from those reactions. Equally perplexing is the (personal) instinct to view another “truth seeker”: as nemesis – unless perhaps said instinct is accurate and said “truth seeker” is not such at all.. I believe I am seeing a process of growth unfolding. I’m strong enough to stand up and fight for my faith, but still untrained in the art of sustained combat, hence the crude flailing.

          • Francis Bencharles

            I got a nice chuckle out of that Burt, thanks!

      • Huldah

        Are you related to the apostle Paul?
        I think Jehovah may put this in the new scrolls or at least the new revised updated and unabridged Proclaimers book.

        Well said anyway. It’s a keeper. Two thumbs up!

        • Burt Reynolds

          Huldah !!!! You’ll get me struck down ! ?? Please don’t relate me with the apostle Paul!! ? I’m just sitting at home with my feet up reading this page and occasionally watching biblical YouTube history videos, or Robert’ videos, doing a bit of woodwork and generally being retired. If I ever get ‘inspired’ I’ll let you know; in the interim, I’m just going to feed my dog as he is glaring at me as its gone 5.

          • Huldah

            I just call em as I see em. Holy spirit is holy spirit. Amos was a nipper of figs and not anointed. I guess you can be a retired Youtube watching woodworker and still get a whiff of the spirit that fires you to poignant words.

          • John 3:16

            Hello Burt. I’m interested in the biblical YouTube videos you’ve been watching. Is there a specific channel that you watch? Are there a lot of them that cover things accurately?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello John, I just look at historical issues of the bible….just key in something like biblical archeology and see what comes up. Most of it is slanted towards some belief but occasionally I find something that has some fact. The ruins of sodom has some basis of fact. Various sites in Israel is another; Babylon and the river that went through it that was stopped up. Also of interest are the science documentaries on space, such as the Hubble telescope, time/light and their interaction, and the study of atoms…all of which describe in their own way, the wonders of creation. The study of the brain and how it thinks……well, who can listen to that and deny the creator. In general, there are few biblical facts to be found in documentaries and fewer still when you part it from religion, but the science on YouTube and other sites can be biblically astounding. One such item is the warp engine, folding space in front of it and extending it behind. Moving forward, but standing still, like surfing a wave. We have the basics of understanding already on the process. It gives insight into the magnificent intelligence of Jehovah and builds such a deep, heartening appreciation of his creation.

            • John 3:16

              I did as you suggested and typed in biblical archaeology and you’re right. I could spend all day watching them. It looks like they even convinced Harrison Ford to star in one. I’m not that great with understanding science but it does make you wonder how much we don’t know yet. I always think of Jehovah whenever it comes to how complex things are. How could you not?

            • Brian

              How much we don’t know would be far more extensive than what we think we know already!

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Brian, I cannot even work the washing machine at home.

              Seriously though, I had forgotten all about that scripture. It’s quite profound that most of the population do not realise that Jehovah has also set eternity in their hearts.

              Have you ever wondered why people who have no religious inclinations shout ‘My God’ when they are in serious danger. There will be a lot of people uttering those words when things really turn bad. I wonder if that is why the scripture states, everyone calling upon the NAME of Jehovah will be saved. Just thinking out aloud really.

            • Noe Namely

              “How could you not?”

              Exactly, Thanks

      • Huldah

        You just made thisy all time favorite article and comments. I’m favoriting and recommending this baby.

        I’m also sending this to my mom who, when she recently asked an elder to show her the article he was speaking from in the service group so she could see it for herself, was refused. The elder huffed and puffed and the dutiful elderette in the backseat made a show of her undying support for the infallibility of all elders!
        Sort of like the days when all Germans made a show of their undying support for the Swastika.

    • Brian

      It’s interesting that you have mentioned the fourth beast of Daniel, the 4th beast is in fact the Roman empire and it is with us all of the way up until the composite beast “comes out of the sea”, all of the so called “empires that we think have existed since the formation of the Roman empire are really only an extension of it. The whole world is modelled if you like after it with a sprinkling of Greece which it replaced, the 4th beast and the legs of iron and feet of iron and clay are one in the same thing, if you look at the 4th beast as the Roman Empire there is actually no room for another empire to rise up after it save for the 7 headed ten horned beast, in revelation there is an explanation given to John about the heads of the beast, “And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.” Now Daniel makes no mention of another power to come after the 4th beast other than for the little horn that springs from the ten on its scone. So to analyse this at the time when the seventh head is to be added the ten are instantly added to the remainder of the beast so it is not until those ten kings are ready to “rule over the world” that the 7th head appears, once this happens (and it will be instantaneous) we have the complete beast that now in an instant becomes the eight king but as it states does not have kingdom as the others did, this would also indicate that it is not ruling with Gods authority which is the case as it will be at this time “standing in the holy place”, i.e. Gods Kingdom!

      So yes (just in case) I am saying that the so called “Anglo American” empire is NOT the 7th head, never was and never will be! Of course they will be apart of it.

      • Francis Bencharles

        Hi Bryan:

        I think your interpretation of Daniel 2 is incorrect, as the description is clear. The head was gold and represented Nebi. The shoulders and arms were a divided kingdom by the “two arms being one on the right and one on the left, this being Medo Persia. The abdomen and Thighs of Copper Represented Greece and how it would split into four. (We even use the four quadrants of the abdomen in Medicine even today. The “legs of iron” was rome and the “feet’ partly of iron and partly of clay is Anglo/America. Very clear to me.

        The stone cut out “not by hands” is not cut out by God, you must read these scriptures very carefully. That in Daniel 7 that the Kingdom of God puts out of it’s misery the fourth beast. The stone destroys the image of the Nation State System. Jehovah destroys Satan’s last hurrah for power, the fourth beast of Daniel 7.

        “23 “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and (((t will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it)))+ 24 As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom (((these are the ten toes that survive the destruction of the image of Daniel 2 and become kings for one hour with the fourth beast of Daniel 7)) and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.+ 25 He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26 But the Court sat, and they((( took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely.)))+
        27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.+ Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,+ and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’” Daniel 7:23-27

        So, clearly God’s Kingdom set up Court and pronounces judgment on the fourth beast that sets up his Kingdom over the entire earth and tramples it down after it had destroyed the image of Daniel 2. Read it clearly. Do not let years of interpretation bias get in the way of understanding this very critical point. Be like the Boreans and read it for understanding not just to verify an already existing belief first told you by “prophets” who even Robert King knows don’t know their butts from a whole in the ground when it comes to prophecy!

        • Brian

          It would seem that your understanding is somewhat wayward. The iron legs are the Roman Empire as are its feet, the toes do not escape destruction as the stone that hit the statue destroys all of it, i.e. the toes do not escape. The fourth beast like I said is one in the same thing as the legs and toes as there is NO other beast that follows, you are looking for something that is simply not there.

          • Francis Bencharles

            Promulgated, that’s a big one!

            • Brian

              Yes Francis there are “big ones” some of them are masquerading as intelligent humans as well!! 🙂

          • Francis Bencharles

            Please take the time, for my sake to outline your entire beleif system in regard to Daniel 2 and the image. Also, does this end with the end of Rome or does it experience a metamorphosis into the English Empire or the E. U. or something else. And please mention who cuts the stone from the mountain (which mountain) “without hands”

            • Francis Bencharles

              metamorhosis, pretty big eh?

            • Brian

              Francis, let me start with the stone that was not cut by hands, this in itself I would think is self explanatory in that it is not carried out by man, so it is either carried out by Satan or Jehovah and seeing as it is putting an end to elements of Satan’s world system (a system developed in Babylon)(even though they ruled with the authority of Jehovah) it would be by God’s “hand” or the Kingdom that is replacing them.
              Daniel 2 as far as I can read it is explained by Daniel, Babylon, Medes/Persians, Greeks, and the Roman empire, and at the tail end of that empire during a time that its absolute power has been diminished with the mixing of “the offspring of mankind” with those that were originally designated to rule, the ruling class that had been from Babylon all the way down the legs to the “watered down” power in the feet and toes, the fact that the feet and toes have the remaining iron of the original Roman empire and the other absolute powers that rose up along the way means that it is still with us today but not in any nation state, the two legs that are attached to the two thighs which is the Greek empire and the start of the split world system (geopolitically split today as the eastern and the western spheres) of the King of the North and the King of the South which in the world today which everyone can see is the east west divide.
              Pretty much every country/nation on the planet (including China) runs on the same political, judicial and economic system that came from the Greeks and ultimately honed by Rome to deliver what we have today.
              So the 10 toes/Kings that haven’t manifested themselves as an entire entity yet are actually all a part of each the King of the North and South.
              Sorry, but was that too much to digest in one sitting?
              PS we need to keep in mind also that this what is coming upon the earth is going to affect every living soul on the planet and therefore all are involved.

            • Francis Bencharles

              It seems real logical to you that the stone that is not cut out by hands is done -by Jehovah, but the Bible is very clear that Jehovah and the kingdom destroy the government that takes over the political and economic affairs of the entire earth. Have you ever heard of a false flag? Yes the deep state of both the U.S. and the U.K. are going to strike themselves down. The western banking system is way past insolvent and the banking system must move to the east where they have stockpiles of up to 40,000 tons of God to start a banking system with real money, not the play money that has been used since 1973 when Nixon pulled the world off the gold standard. No Brian, the stone cut out not by hands will destroy the last remnants of the image of Daniel 2 it, the stone cut out without hand will grow into a large mountain and fill the earth.

              Where you get this delusion that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 is Rome is beyond me. It is very clearly the beast that becomes a giant mountain and fills the whole earth and it is this beast that “the ancient of days” burns completely with fire until it is totally destroyed. You will see it happen before your very eyes. The ten toes are in on the false flag and they have already carved out a place for themselves in the hierarchy of the final beast over mankind as the 10 horns that rule with the beast “for the last hour”, which coincides nicely with the “our of the test ” on mankind. Open your eyes man. Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon are long gone.

              “In the days of those kings” are the days of the toes of the image of Daniel 2 that engineer thier own demise as the seventh world power of human history over the covenanted people of God. First the Jews, then the Christians. The ten toes see the writing on the wall and they have been working feverishly to bring about this “image of the beast” that they will be part of when it is finally unleased on mankind less than a couple weeks after the sixth seal is opened. They get “one thought” from Jehovah, to destroy the image and to bring out of the sea their new creation-the “image of the beast” which will be some “new and improved U.N.” that this time has big sharp iron teeth and a false prophet of the resurrected U.S./U.K. by it’s side in the two horned beast that comes up from the earth. They are the copper claws since copper is the priestly metal. Get ready, here they come in no time at all.

            • Francis Bencharles

              ““This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will (((devour all the earth))) and will (((trample it down and crush it.”))) It becomes a large mountain and fills the earth. And it is this fourth Kingdom that the Ancient of Days and the rest of the Kingdom members destroy for all time.

              “But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to (((annihilate him and to destroy him completely.)))+” That’s who the kingdom destroys. The do not destroy the image of Daniel 2 which is that biggest false flag in the history of mankind up to this time.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Will There Be A New World Order?
              https://e-watchman.com/new-world-order/

              Daniel and the Time of the End
              https://e-watchman.com/daniel/

            • Brian

              Wow!

            • A little knowledge of history might help you. The Roman Empire morphed into the Holy Roman Empire. The popes of Rome ruled Western Europe and its thousands of fiefdoms for over 1,000 years. Eventually Britain broke from the Vatican’s rule and ultimately became the British Empire. London has been the seat of the neo Roman Empire for the past 2 centuries.

            • Brian

              I already have “a little knowledge of history”, yes indeed it did morph or appears to have morphed but nowhere in Daniel does it say another kingdom would arise after it.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Podcast, Episode #75 https://e-watchman.com/podcast-episode-75/

              Questions regarding the seven empires and the eighth king. Will the great crowd really come out of the great tribulation? What is the meaning of the various time periods in Daniel, 2,300, 1290, 1335 days etc? Also, are Jehovah’s Witnesses the only ones who will be saved?

              (Click here to view as vodcast on YouTube)

            • Brian

              Hi Kevin, thanks for the link. I doesn’t give me any more insight into these beliefs that I don’t necessarily believe anyway, the general idea seems somewhat right but things like the ten horns of the forth beast being discounted down to ten king in “history” that have ruled in the place of Rome even though the preceding beasts horns were the actual “kings” at the very time, i.e. Medes and Persians large and small horn, Alexander the great one large horn followed by four insignificant ones but the ten on the forth for someone’s reasoning are either relegated to history or in the case of the ten horns in Revelation are somehow the representation of all of the kings of the earth instead of being what it actually says they are “ten kings that will rule with the beast for and hour”, literally ten real identifiable kings/governments. This ten kings being the all encompassing world governments is just another by-product of the 1914 parousia delusion, because they couldn’t actually identify ten literal governments that were supposed to be controlling the world and therefore make up the horns of their imaginary beast they had to invent it, I can’t believe that people that have disowned the 1914 drivel are still serving it up instead of looking for the real meanings to these “visions” through scripture and what is REALLY happening on the ground.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Brian, I always thought the number ten signifies earthly completeness. Hence the Ten Kings represent the whole earth.

            • Brian

              Yes Jamie I used to also but the other beasts that are depicted in Daniel use the numbers of horns to actually depict the number of kings involved with the structure of its power, i.e. The Medes and the Persians as 2 horns and even one being taller than the other depicting the difference in status or power, the Greeks with Alexander being the single horn of the he goat and after being broken replaced by 4 smaller horns of less significance, it would only be natural for it to follow on with the last one, one could use the argument that because it is described as being different from the others that they mean something else, maybe, but I would think because of the references to the toes as well as the horns and then Revelations explanation that the ten kings will rule for an hour with the beast. Rev 17:12 “The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to
              power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to
              reign with the beast.”, the fact that they say they haven’t ruled as yet would indicate that they are actually 10 separate “kings” and in our time nations that look to have an equal share in the power also because the are all of the same size or at least it doesn’t mention a difference between them as such.
              looking at the statement “that is was different from all of the others”, well indeed it is from what I can glean from it anyway, this last beast has sprawled out to every corner of the planet due to the the fact that it inherited the division started when the 4 generals took over from Alexander after they made alliances between themselves, the start of the king of the north and south and that continued on into the Roman Empire in that it too was split but into east and west which has carried down to now.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Food for thought.

              What Will Jehovah’s Day Reveal?
              Excerpt:
              As Jehovah’s Witnesses know, each head of the seven-headed wild beast represents an empire that has ruled over God’s people. Egypt was the first followed by Assyria, then Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the present Anglo-American dual world power.

              The ten horns of the beast represent all of the individual kingdoms of the world – the number ten signifying earthly completeness.

              But in what sense do those kings receive authority to rule for one hour? It has to be something extraordinary – a development that has not taken place yet. But according to the Watchtower the United Nations became the eighth king upon its creation. But have all the nations of the earth given their authority to the UN? Hardly!
              Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/will-jehovahs-day-reveal/

              Read a lot more.
              Search results for: ten horns.https://e-watchman.com/?s=ten+horns

              http://jehovah-is-king.com/?s=TEN+KINGS

            • Richard Long

              Which would make the king from Greece to the king fierce in countenance standing up against Jesus Rome the whole way?

            • Francis Bencharles

              Brian, read this verse very carefully, it’s from Daniel 7:23

              23 “This
              is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it *will devour all the earth* and will trample it down and crush it.

              The U.S. and the U.K. are prominent parts of the Father of the Image of the Beast (the current U.N.). They know that their dream of world government is being sabataged by Trump and May so they are willing to destroy the image to accomplish their real purpose which is tyrannical world rule. They will destroy the U.S./U.K. head of the beast, which will essentially destroy the U.N. . But that is the whole purpose. They know this system is over and is only a matter of time before the bubble gum and spit that is holding it together dries out and crumbles. This is a pre-emptive strike, the false flag of all false flags.

              They commit temporary suicide of the Nation State system portrayed dutifully by the image of Daniel 2 by destroying the Nation State system themselves. They do this to establish “the image of the beast” a new and improved U.N. that will probably have control of all the militaries of the earth (devours all the earth)(it becomes a mountain that fills the whole earth) in that it will have worldwide control as mountains are symbolic in the Bible for governments or rulers.

              It is the Kingdom of God that destroys not the image of Daniel 2, but the fourth beast of Daniel 7 thusly….

              26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to* annihilate him* and to *destroy him completely.*+

              Essentially the seventh head commits suicide in a false flag, fully knowing that it will be resurrected into the two horned wild beast which will be the false prophet to the “image of the beast” this newly revamped U.N. that has iron teeth and copper claws.

              The demons cut the stone “out of the mountain” of the seventh world power mountainous arrangement as the stone is a part of that governmental arrangement. It destroys the image of Daniel 2 so that it can bring to power the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Rome has been dead and gone for Centuries. This is a modern fulfillment and has nothing whatsoever to do with Rome.

              Frank

            • Brian

              Francis, you lost me with the US and the UK, I have been said to have used some speculation when relaying thought and scriptures here Francis but you have excelled far beyond my use by using about 95% speculation. You still haven’t shown me scripturally how another kingdom arises when Daniel is as clear as crystal that there is NOT one, he has reiterated it 3 times
              Demons cutting the stone to destroy something for it only to be replaced by the promised Gods Kingdom….interesting.
              I suppose I shouldn’t use the word Rome because most people think it was destroyed but it wasn’t, it has many components to to it and not the least is that it was an Empire split on “geopolitical lines” and it has been all the way down to this day.
              This isn’t scriptural and I have mentioned this on here quite some time back, there is Society in the US called the Foundation for the study of cycles and they study them, many years ago according to them they discovered what they believe to be 500-ish year “super” Geopolitical shift cycle that involves obviously those that control the world, in about 2005 they came up with a year for the balance to start to shift back to the preceding one and that was the East, they said 2013 was the pivotal year that the “eastern hemisphere” would start to challenge the “western hemisphere”. Now this is scriptural, in Daniel 11 there is a time that these kings of the north and south come to a head in what is described as the last time, the time when the king of the north (eastern hemisphere) comes against the south (western hemisphere) but it will not be the same as it was at the first so he will not prevail as he did the first time around. Applying this to the eastern worlds ascension it will not prevail this time, what we have in the world today as we can see it is China, Russia, India, east Africa South Africa south American nations and pretty much all of Asia with the exception of Japan along with the middle east coming together under BRICS and the one road, silk road cooperation to challenge the old order which has been around since about 1500, now this is and will created some friction and a whole lot of pushing between them. I know people will be saying that the north and the south can’t be the east and the west but that is how the Roman empire was divided after it absorbed all that made up the 4 generals of Greece that ultimately became the the nth and sth kings and the Roman Empire. This is going to involve the WHOLE world and not just a couple of “bit” players, WHOLE is the operative word.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Hi Brian: Forget I said anything. You stay with that Rome thing. Best wishes!

              Frank

            • Brian

              Thanks, same for you Francis.

            • Richard Long

              I wonder what, if any, impact it would have on your argument to consider the fact that the original prime meridian used to flow, through Giza, Egypt. The Largest Pyramid is aligned to it at its center.

            • Brian

              That being the “centre” of civilisation at that time would have it as such, Greenwich is the one set up by the British empire that was the centre of attention in the world at that time. I am not sure it would change anything a great deal in relation to viewing the positions of the “north and south kings”maybe. If my surname was Russell I could run with the pyramids as having something to do with it though! : )

            • Richard Long

              I was just thinking about Roberts ID’ing London as Tyre and US as Egypt. Fitting, then that the distinction of being the “center of the world” would be tossed between the two.

        • Brian

          Francis, I don’t believe that I am peddling an already existing belief told to me by the prophets, to the contrary what I have said here comes from myself and a couple of other close people (X JW’s) that have managed to throw off the cloak of their delusion and look at these scriptures as they are written, understanding them applying logic to them as well as making sure that they also fit with other scriptures and what we witness that has gone on so far and what hasn’t. I have always been a logical thinker and the scriptures are not illogical, it is the people that are illogical in that they want something to be and they want to be right now so they go about finding an event that fits the right now scenario and add all sorts of “petty” happenings, outright ridiculous sightings and events to verify what they are saying is true, one wonders what their true motivation is to do this, is it power over people, is it this insatiable desire to be right at that time (power). Does anyone here remember reading a publication from the, I think 1950’s when it was quoted that the first satellite Sputnik was “the sign of the son of man” which was ridiculous as the same book referred to the Soviets as “ungodly communist heathens” or similar! There has be a plethora of these ever since someone though Jesus had already turned up in the Kingdom, you have to wonder what the holy spirit was thinking all of that time!!!

          • Burt Reynolds

            Yes I recall all that rubbish about Sputnik. It’s a good illustration to use, showing how people take a little bit of knowledge and turn it into a fact and build a complete new faith in it and yes, try to exert power over others with it for their own glory. I try to relate all that I read to the bible and satisfy myself as to its truth, but I only have my own small insight in these prophesies to guide me. That said, the truth speaks for itself and has a ring to it which, emotive that it may be, does have a guiding force so to speak. Your arguement re: the Anglo American power is one such issue. Maybe it could be part of, rather than the leader. I don’t know because I don’t have the insight. Roberts arguement for it though, follows the biblical pattern and statement that there is a leader, and logic identifies who that may be, maybe because the seat of power is so clear. But neither arguements matter to me, though they are both helpful to be held in mind, because we just don’t know for certain, and what we do know, and our tangled human condition, work against us at times. One thing is certain though and that is, that we will come to know. Therefore the important part of theology is to ensure that we recognise the bridegroom and be ready. I think, I hope, that I will be able to manage that much. It’s nice though to see biblical reason behind statues and horns, beasts and heads and it is helpful to gain a picture of all of it, but the prophesies are for prophets and I know I’m not one of them. Someone though, has to be telling us the truth, otherwise the very stones would cry out. If a stone cries out in the forest, and there is no one to hear it does it make a sound? Yes it does. Absolutely.

            • Brian

              Hi Burt, yes we can get carried off with the prophesies as they are very interesting to read and try and get an inkling into what Jehovah has planned, after all they are part of the plan. I suppose the real problem could certainly be that ones focus on this so much to the point that they miss the point of Jesus entire message and there is as we know references to this with the scriptures that talk of the wonder attributes of people in regards to all sorts abilities to read the scriptures and teach them, speak in tongues etc but are lacking the love that Jesus portrayed for us to use as an example for our very selves.

          • “close people (X JW’s)”

            thats the problem

            • Brian

              And what problem is that? Is it a problem to sit with liked minded people that are in search of the truth as others sit in congregations and listen to lies and drivel being peddled as fact??

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Brian, you don’t have to sit in a congregation to witness that. You can sit in the comfort of your own home and read it right here on E Watchman. That is in no way a reference to your good self. We have witnessed some daft and insulting comments here and Robert has dutifully banned the people behind them, thank goodness.

              As Burt has mentioned before having a take on something can be a distraction to others and while some of the comments are interesting and are not outrageous it leaves some with the dilemma of being like the Bereans and dutifully examine the scriptures etc.

              I just don’t have enough time to examine every single thread which deviates away from Roberts thinking. I have reached the point of understanding where I am happy with what I have learnt on this site. I believe Robert has most things right and I also believe he has Jehovah’s blessing.

              I think we can all agree that we need to constantly watch world events to ensure we are ready for what ever happens shortly. Jehovah will provide knowledge to us at the proper time.

            • Thinking

              So has Perimeno got Jehovah’s blessing …and some other trusted brothers as far as being invited,ones….my advice would be to widen out…that way you do not become a follower of one man
              each has their unique gifts…and when the two,witness come ..and the holy Spirit given out…then and only then will be one hundred percent sure of everything. …
              Also remember Jehovah will supply knowledge at the right time…that’s true…but he expects us to search for it..to,dig for,it,as if we were digging for treasure …
              It’s hard and tiring work….and each spot must be searched throughly …

              .

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Thinking, how u doing? I understand what you are saying, but what’s the difference between being a follower of one man or being a follower of 2 or perhaps 3. Even more worrying would be the fact that each man you follow may or do have different views. For me that is unhelpful. As you did not disagree with me about Robert being blessed I’m going nowhere else.

              Regarding Daniel’s end time prophesies, I am of the view that you can dig and dig and never find what you are looking for , for the simple reason the information we seek is sealed up.

            • Thinking

              I am not a follower of either or any those men ….that’s why it’s good to get a view of all of them…and stand back and rely heavily on Jehovah to open up the scriptures to one when he is ready to do so…you see …staying on one place means you are following one man…
              The fact that all may have different views on somethimg shows me….Jehovah is not telling them the correct view on that matter…and perhaps they are relying on themselves….using their own perception and understandings ……he’s keeping them humble…..I guess I would do the same thing as well…if I were in their special shoes….I think it would be easy actually…being such imperfect humans we are..

              Don’t limit yourself Jamie…even the mighty kings of old listened to ALL of their wise men and phrophets before making a decision…why should we be any different….
              As you say..and I entirely agree with you..many things at present are still sealed up…so many things are cloudy to us still….
              Hence why we need to two witnesses and the outpouring of Holy Spirit …
              Personally I think you would be robbing yourself of gaining a lovely balance by sticking just to Robert and not also perimeno
              .or if you meet another invited one whom you eventually can trust.( the net is now riddled with false annoited )…they all have special gifts in wonderful things….i savior them all…and now just listen and take it all in…and wait and pray for understanding…..
              Look at all the propjets of old…they all had different qualities…different gifts….
              I know there were two that lived at the same time…was it Isiaha and Jeremiah?????…please some one correct me if I’m wrong as I’m guessing here and relying on poor memory .
              Would you not want to talk to BOTH…or at least listen to both…..what an amazimg experience that would be …
              Anyway my brother. These are just my thoughts and ramblings…I totally respect your views….much love to you brother

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Thinking, I do understand your reasoning and I will take on board your advice which was given in a most humble and loving manner :-)..

              I have actually looked at Perimeno and Baruq sites and they are both filled with spiritual food . It is interesting that Baruq often visit’s E Watchman.

              Thanks Listening, I always look out for your ramblings 🙂

            • Thinking

              Actually if Brian is sitting in a congregation listening to whatever….he is being obedient and serving shoulder to shoulder with his brothers in good times and bad times….when Jesus returns Or actually when the two witness come..then perhaps there will be no congs…but until that time..he’s doing the right thing..he is doing AS DIRECTED FROM THE SCRIPTURES…….did Jesus not only wash Judas’s feet right before his death..in fact you show me one time Jesus pushed Judas aside or refused to associate with him…he never ever did..NEVER!!!…..he Lovingly kindly sat with him even that last night …he never singled him out before hand or treated him any different .until he leant toward John and whispered to him…..and the said to Judas BE ON YOUR WAY AND DO WHAT YOU ARE DOING MORE QUICKLY …….

              We go to meetimg for the love of our brothers and sisters…to serve them..
              If this is what you are doing Brian…I salute you!!….

            • Brian

              Sorry thinking but I am no part of the congregation-s and have not been for 20 odd years, this has in no way diminished my pursuit of the “truth” though and I still do my own “witnessing” to people in the area, it is just done differently as you can imagine. I would like to be a part of a group or a congregation that has the same or at least similar biblical understanding as myself especially in regards to the message that is to every person putting their faith in Jesus is that the Kingdom of the heavens has not been closed up or the numbers has been sealed so as to stop those trying to get in to get in. I know JW’s seem to think you can’t be in the “running” as they sealed it up a long time ago, in fact this is the biggest issue that I have with them now and it is the most important one, I originally looked at their take on the prophecies as being deficient but the kingdom being still open to all is the real and most important message that does not get out there from the “door to door” activity. And yes I do know that there is only 144,000 chosen from ALL of those that are called but if you shy away from even standing for it you can/could never achieve it, well God is involved so anything like it as stated by Peter is possible no matter how crumby we think we might be!

            • Thinking

              Ah well I’ll shuffle up and you can sit by me if you ever decide to take another peek back in…I’ve still got the other chair beside me waiting for Joesph S….hahah…by the way….as far as I know the society no longer claims the door is is shut on the annoited… but it’s not open to all at this time..( I think that’s what your meaning …that all should be partaking ) …hey..and who ever Gods people are…they won’t be looking to good going by the prophesies about his people…in the last days…his house is going to have it all upside down anyway…..aaah welll. I’ll still save a seat for you …

            • Brian

              Thanks Thinking, you never know though! If the light will truly get brighter as the end draws near they will change their narrative. At the end of the day it is an individual standing anyway, the congregation is for gathering like minded to up lift and help each other, I would see the scripture as not forsaking the gathering of your self together as a more of a recommendation than a command. The vineyard and the last hour workers parable has still to be full filled which grates against some Witnesses that I have known over the years!
              I have not heard anything on the door not being closed on the anointed, this would be a difficult one to back pedal from I should imagine.

            • Huldah

              Valid point. I’m grappling with the same realization, but as Beverly said, I’d be giving a vicious abuser more opportunities to abuse me .I see Jehovah strengthening me to get past recent blows and ‘making my forehead hard as flint’.

              Ezekiel 3:9

              New Living Translation
              I
              have made your forehead as hard as the hardest rock! So don’t be afraid
              of them or fear their angry looks, even though they are rebels.”

              English Standard Version
              Like
              emery harder than flint have I made your forehead. Fear them not, nor
              be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house.”

              I think I’ll know when Jehovah expects me to go back. At any rate, I felt like I was sending hubby into a den of lions as he dragged himself out the door to attend the WT. All he could do and I’m afraid of how depressed he’ll be the rest of the day because he did it (being there brings back so many disturbing feelings and memories but we’re trapped in this cong for now.)

              I keep hoping that if Jehovah will just bring some attention to tthe eldership and their judgmental guilt mongering callous ways, the justice will strengthen me to take a stand for Jehovah’s little sheep still in the congregation who need my help.

            • Thinking

              Jehovah may manipulate things in a cong ..but by and large they won’t change in the whole…..it would go against scripture….Hulda….the secret is to ADAPT….find little ways to cope….and keep trying …Jehovah will give you enough relief that he deems fit….and beg and beg and beg for it….xx

            • Beverly kenyon

              He’s lost his joy….one of the fruitage of the spirit! Poor man. The only time justice will be meted out to the ‘eldership’ is when Jesus Christ our King comes back in his real parousia. Until then they will slowly crush ones like your husband Huldah. We take care of our physical bodies, nourish it, so shouldn’t we also take care of our mental health, so if you consciously let others ‘assault’ your mentality then something will eventually give and more so as we’re living in critical times.

            • Huldah

              It seems like the more I learn and experience in the truth, the less I understand.

              Sometimes it seems to me the ones with the least holy spirit find the most joy in the congregation.

              Gal. 5:22
              is a quandary to me as regards the congregation.

              It seems that ones who are perfunctory in their service, serve as regards titles or treat the truth like a social club are the ones who find joy peace and loving association at the meetings.

              The people who seem to have real HS seem to be the ones who are showing the signs of wear and tear from the congregation.
              They seem to be sighing and groaning over whats happening among Jehovah’s people.

              Strange times we live in.

              I think of how they always said of the brothers in the concentration camps that they still had joy in Jehovah.
              It makes me recall and old yearbook I read. In one concentration camp. Some of the brothers sold out in a small way by taking positions over the brothers to keep them in line for the SS. They prevented the brothers from praying etc…
              It sounded like that demoralized them much more than the persecution from the Natzis.

              Satan was watching He learned how to destroy us from the inside. Have us turn on one another.

              That’s one possible explanation for why the joy is hard to come by at the meetings. How do you deal with being sold out by your own brothers then happily sit beside them, knowing what they’ve done?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Because Huldah, the HS is not in those congregations. Perimeno wrote a fantastic article about that very subject. How can HS be evident when they’re treating God’s house like a social club where they reign supreme because they’re the cool gang. It’s like school for some of them all over again! It’s infantile, snobbish, cliquey, exclusive, pathetic and highly disrespectful to true witnesses and most of all to Jehovah himself. Even in a concentration camp of all places where death is at any time and your freedom has been taken away you find others lording over their brothers in the faith. Don’t know how much a role Satan played in that concentration camp situation but you get a group of people together, even in the grimmest situation and you will find ones trying to dominate their fellow man that’s why I will always stand up for myself and establish my boundaries and I will never relinquish my free will or myself to any human being as that’s when they will take advantage of you. One of the fruitage of God’s HS is Joy and that Joy is missing in most KH’s so then, is Jehovah’s HS spirit residing there? Don’t think so!

            • Song of Hannah

              So true. Seems most have cognitive dissonance and are terrified of anything that might disrupt it. I believe they avoid us because it doesn’t fit their mold, i.e. You can’t possibly be a spiritual person unless you make all the meetings. And you might be preaching but I don’t see you out in service so it doesn’t count. Never mind that you seem to love Jehovah and enjoy talking about scripture. Actually, that tells me something must be seriously wrong with you. Yep, you’re likely bad association and dangerous to my spirituality! Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Avoid! Avoid! Avoid! *smoke spews from their head*.

              Sad thing is, I was one of those ones, before. So I don’t judge them too harshly. They are all misled to believe man’s approval from within the org is paramount.

              But I am noticing, that as we seek the friendship of those who sighing and groaning, rather than the prominent ones, we are associating with real wheat, as Thinking says. They don’t talk about their hours and their theocratic exploits as soon as you meet them.

              Ever notice that? Meet any witness that’s doing well (by org standards) and they will indirectly share with you something, anything, seemingly to reassure you they are “approved”. I’ve even found myself doing it.. Bleh! Slap my face! Old habits die hard…

            • Song of Hannah

              You know, I realized just how far Satan has ahold of us, when I saw Leah Remini’s experience in Scientology. It’s much the same as what we go through, being held captive by an org of men. Maybe that’s what Jesus meant, when he said he was going to “free all the captives”. Either way, I look forward to Jesus correcting the situation. But then I don’t… cause it’s not gonna be a happy time, that’s for sure. But I’m so depressed by the situation as it stands now, I feel I’ll gladly take change, just to see that something’s being done about it…

            • Huldah

              Ditto
              I saw Leah’s experience. I felt kind of bad for seeing how “the truth” is much the same. But it’s just plain true.

              It’s actually a bit worse for us because we never get the validation she’s getting, not to mention all that Satan’s world has bestowed upon her in the form of fame and money. Scientology seeks to make it’s adherents gods in this world.

              Worse in the immediate term, I mean. Even the congregation will make you feel that it’s better to have what she has now than a truly good name and reputation with Jehovah that can gain you everlasting life even if you are “despised and rejected by others, and a man of sorrows, intimately familiar with suffering”(Is. 53:3 ISV).

            • Burt Reynolds

              Jehovah says he will look after us. I wonder if his thinking is that those who truely believe this will have the full benefits of that faith, and those that don’t, will have to prove their faith in more tangible ways, that they have it. I’m trying to develop the former because because though I just don’t understand fully why the relationship is so one sided, the evidence of creation is undeniable to those who think for themselves and thus, this must be true. It has to be. If not, what else is there? Nothing. We only live once, and this is the only hope we have and so on that count alone, I’m going to put my best foot forward and commit myself, no matter what. There is nothing I want in this world, only life, to enjoy a better life.

            • Thinking

              You change sis..you remake yourself into what we should have always been when we first came into the truth …..we shake of the shackles and cloak that the society clothed you in and you put on the cloak that Jesus always wanted you to wear…..and you become differemt In that way…you adapt and learn to adapt which is a long process…daunting and even painful …injustice is a hard thing to bear…and learn to bear…in doing this you are being given an opportunity to display a Christ like personality…or I should say ….learn to develop a Christ like personality we all here now have that opurtunity to really show what we are made of……..
              Jesus was betrayed by every single one of his followers who fled…tho I think John showed a good amount of courage and followed him thru out the night and to his death….but all others fled…
              You are feeling betrayed..tricked even…and Jehovah is allowing it…in doing this he is watching you ..and hubby…
              Jehovah and Jesus watches every one of us in these terrible times..and we often forget that…I know I do…usually it’s not till after a testing that I can look back and see that .

              You also will see this eventually ..and you will smile to yourself…
              This is a phase you are going thru…and you will get to the other side ….and then you will go thru another phase..and you will get to the other side of that too…
              You WILL….survive the down fall of the society..and come thru the fire and refining that Zechariah talks’off….because of your suffering you are experiencing now…

              I have no idea the depth of why Jehovah does things or why he allows certain things…as you have asked and pondered on…( me too )…but isn’t that also an opurtunity to show trust and faith in him….I have had to really rely on this ..otherwise I would have walked away along time ago…
              Look as sis Beverly…she said she would never go back to a KH ever again….I suffered trauma every time I even SEEN a KH….never alone go back …

              Allow yourself the time to heal…I was complete mush..when I left and in my inactive years..but never stop trying…and beg Jehovah to aid you…and I know you are doing this…also remember..as Robert pointed out..
              Justice WILL BE SERVED…..but for now we must learn to endure…aaaaah more training sis…lol..it never ends does it…..BIG HUG TO YOU

            • Huldah

              He came back in a cheery mood for today, a relief after last Sunday. Still hard but he made it…Phew… I’m trying to fight the tendency to think that Jehovah is unhappy with us every time we have a bad time of it. The reverse side of it is that, on good days, I get my hopes up
              too much that we are on the other side of what seems to be a prolonged time of test for us. Jehovah’s supposed to not thresh the grain forever but I’ve been a plop of mushy porridge for a long time already.:/

            • Thinking

              I’m not sure who you are talking about here…just guessing ..lol..and I don’t know why Jehovah allows things for so so So long …but he says he won’t let us bear anymore than we can take…so as I know he’s not a liar…then I and you must be able to take it…even if we feel like mush..lol….I still don’t understand why Jehovah allowed certain things in my situation..and why the cost had to be so very high…but he will give you relief in some form..but only just enough to survive…we are being tested more than we realise …..right with in his own people…

              If and when you do go back….you will go back as a different person sis… changed…better informed …better armed…and a much lighter yoke around your neck…one you can actually cope with….you will know how to protect and guard your heart and mind better…….Jehovah is getting you ready for what ever lies ahead….you are in training and beimg refined more because he wants to use you..
              Personally..I can honestly say..that if I had had the power to look down the road of my life as a witness when I was about to be baptised at 21 yrs old…..I would NOT have taken that road….who of us can ever think we can carry our torture stake that lays ahead….or indeed why he even allows such things…but why not me sis…and why not you…
              .
              When the final testing does come sis…you will bear up better than others who sit comfortably in the congs…who have not suffered..not been trained…nor truly refined …
              Jehovah drew you to his house for a reason…allow him to keep molding you…he is making you into to to a soldier of Christ…
              You see being one of Jehovah’s witnesses is no different than being an Israelite….just like them we have our ..murmmerers..thieves..liars..false brothers….idolterers ..and bad leaders…but we also have good loving kind people and good leaders….the wheat like ones …
              Me….I seek out the meek like wheat ones …and avoid the rest….
              This scripture I love..and maybye I have already left it here in the past ..but it is so so applicable for ones like us ..
              Jeremiah 12:5
              If you get tired running with footmen..how can you run a race against horses…Even if you are confident in the land of peace…..how will you fare amongst the dense thickets along the Jordan ..FOR EVEN YOUR OWN BROTHERS THE HOUSHOLD OF YOUR OWN FATHER..had dealt TREACHEROUSLY WITH YOU..they have raised a loud cry against you do not put faith in them even if they speak good things to you..

              Sis as of this time he has not abandoned his current household…so hang on u til he does…

              You can do this sis…it seems Jehovah wants a number of us in place for what lies ahead….much love to you..and allow Jehovah restore your mush to a rock like soldier in Christ ..xx

            • Huldah

              Hi Thinking
              What you wrote was amazing.

              Sorry abput the confusion. I think my earlier post didn’t post.

              I was worried about my husband going to the meeting. He came back depressed last Sunday lasted the whole day.
              But he was okay today.

              No doubt in my mind Jehovah has used your trials to train and inform you.
              Our feelings are identical. My husband and I feel the same way about coming into the truth. I have my good and bad days though.
              I’ve thought about that scripture in Jeremiah many times.
              Makes more sense after reading Robert’s writing’s.

              You have really suffered the unthinkable. Yet Jehovah let it happen.
              You never think not being tempted beyond what you can bear would go that far.
              I completely understand that level of disappointment and confusion.
              I haven’t really touched on how far Jehovah has let things go for me as the things that have happened to me are extremely personal. I try to share what I can because I have always wanted someone to tell me that I’m not alone in suffering.

              You’re right Jehovah only seems to give a few drops of water to one dying of thirst.

              You’ve probably thought a lot about this one already …
              Hebrews 12:6

              6 for those whom Jehovah* loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges* everyone whom he receives as a son.”+

              This is the scripture I should have put in my post. How Jehovah threshes his people.

              Is 28:26

              26 For He teaches* him the right way;

              His God instructs him.+

              27 For black cumin is not crushed with a threshing sledge,+

              And a wagon wheel is not driven over cumin.

              Rather, black cumin is beaten out with a rod,

              And cumin with a staff.

              28 Does a person crush grain for bread?

              No, he does not thresh it incessantly;+

              And when he drives the roller of his wagon over it with his horses,

              He does not crush it.+

              Thanks for such an inspired and inspiring reply.
              It’s evident to me that Jehovah values you very much as do I.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Perhaps we need to look at it from a different slant. We know Jehovah cannot be tried by evil things. So if that is the case, when we ask why did he ‘allow it’, it may be to see what we do with it. Thus if something occurs by chance or circumstance, the actual observation of Jehovah, and that he will take note of, is how we respond. And it is from this that he will form his opinion of us, more than what it was that happened. If this were not the case, then all of us would have identical values and responses. The fact that he ‘allowed’ Job’s suffering may not set the standard. That was to prove a point. Once proved, as with Christ, Jehovah is no so unrighteous to prove it again. It’s just a thought. I’m not sure on the point, but it is perhaps an easier way of viewing things if correct.

            • Thinking

              I have wondered this myself….

            • Burt Reynolds

              I find it very difficult myself. To pray with no answer, only a hearing; to be devoid of an answer, of hope, or certainty. To see the contrary things all about me without any diminishing, and to feel no response. Knowing the situation, does not ease the sense of abandonment. It’s like a spouse never telling you that you are loved. Just a mustard grain of comfort would be signal enough, but no. Not even that. We have to stand on faith alone and at times, it feels as though prayer is only a means of self delusion. But if we do have faith, then Jehovah will fulfil his promise, because that is what faith is, and these things will come to pass. At least we have creation and the brain to figure out what that means. I suppose we should not ask for, or expect, more than that. It’s enough for me.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Agree with some of what you say Burt. Jehovah is full of compassion, Grace, mercy, justice and Jehovah God is Love, he personifies Love, so why would this God of Love ALLOW someone’s loved one to be bullied, harassed, picked on, degraded, even in some cases to Death. I don’t recognise that God and don’t believe for one minute Jehovah ALLOWS a righteous one to suffer like that and also to ALLOW the perpetrator to do such a thing. The hateful attitude witnessed in congregations have filtered down from the top to the bottom and the wolves that the apostle Paul spoke about, Acts20:29, are ALLOWED to treat ones in the KH’s like they’re worthless, victims to target and bully to death. I wouldn’t willingly ALLOW my child to be bullied and picked on, as that would make me a very twisted and sadistic individual and very unloving just because I think Oh, this will make her stronger mentally and prove her worth. Jehovah is not involved with such things but he is seeing it all happen and a person can find solace and strength to bear and get through it by looking to his word the Bible and from outside support that may be offered and pouring your heart out to him or simply by removing yourself from the toxic situation for the sake of your mental health and the health of your faith and spirituality! And I wouldn’t enable these wolves by trying to treat them half decent as they’re not deserving of any human decency and shouldn’t be ALLOWED to get away with their vile behaviour…they’re wrecking lives and people’s Faith and nobody should be looked down on for speaking up about it because you’ve to be seen to doing the Christian thing. Seriously! The Bully and nasty wolf has to shown compassion! Sack that! I’ll leave that for Jesus Christ to sort out but in the meantime I will despise them and the absolute misery they cause and how families are ripped apart! Evil!

            • Southern ShaSha

              Hello Beverly. I have always appreciated the scripture at Malachi 3:11-18. Regardless of what is going on Jehovah is always looking on, as Burt said, he is most likely observing how we may react to it. And boy what we see and experience day to day in this messed up world can bring us down if we aren’t careful. Again, knowing Jehovah has the back of any who persevere through it all. I know myself at times I become so angry at all in the world and in the organization and I must stop to think, oh my gosh how much more does it affect our Heavenly Father. We are so imperfect and we reflect it in our reaction to the quadrillion’s of injustices that are the norm in this old system of mankind and Satan, at this point in time. And just knowing by our love, trust and faith in Jehovah and his son, soon enough it will all come to an end. We are so fortunate to be able to look ahead at all the wonderful blessings ahead. So I suppose our biggest challenge is to share what we know with others so they to may find the peace and joy, even now, that will soon be our reality. Just to be able to picture in our minds and hearts a world taken out of satans hands and governed by the very righteousness of Jesus and then handed back to our Heavenly Father. That is our focus and joy for now!

            • Southern ShaSha

              Just another quick thought. We must always remember, Jehovah is with us, always observing, on the other hand, for now Satan is always there to, to test us, to anger us, to whittle at our faith and perseverance. But as we know who will triumph over all the evil that has spun out of control. He, Satan cannot take our faith away, unless we give in to his sly and evil lies!

            • Beverly kenyon

              So very true ShaSha.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Thanks for that scripture ShaSha, just this minute looked it up. Love the bit about how Jehovah kept paying attention and listening as the ones in fear of Him spoke with each other….Jehovah does hear us and he’s not far off from each of us. It’s when I look out of my window and I see the trees, (I have a thing about trees, they fascinate me), I feel this absolute Love and Awe for Jehovah and His Son, the feeling washes over me and makes me want to smile and I fill up with tears, (I find it hard to cry fully), that I’m so grateful for life and this beautiful world they made for us! It is a struggle ShaSha, some more than others and that alone upsets me sometimes as I hate to see my fellow humans suffer especially at the inequality of this world! Can’t wait for the Real Change Jehovah has promised and the transition! It’s going to be the Best and Worst of times and exciting but a very scary way! Great to hear from you ShaSha and hope family and you are all okay.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I agree with what you say Beverley, but that is not what I meant. Do we love a God that allows children to starve to death, old ones to suffer, and so on. No we don’t. But not because he allows it, but because he would not allow it, and it is not of his doing. Jehovah does not allow …perhaps permit would be a more appropriate term, these things, and the world is given over to Satan. Jehovah is impartial and he would not allow people to suffer, but he would give people the strength perhaps to endure it. The time for justice is not yet, but there will be a time for retribution and setting things straight. Jehovah is going to permit us to be tested yet more before this system ends and if we prove faithful, then we will have our reward. He allowed /permitted suffering to death for his son, the murder of some of the apostles, in fact all the evil in the world is permitted . If it were not permitted, then why is it happening to both the righteous and the unrighteous as the scripture says., just as the rain falls and the sun shines on them too. We have to look to why Jehovah does permit suffering and the prime case in point is that of his son. How much less worthy are we. We even allow ourselves to suffer with our wrongdoing and some will die at their own hand because of it. So what do we mean by the word allow or permit, and who really is allowing this state of affairs to continue?

              Even If we did not choose this course ourselves directly, but inherited it, we are certainly guilty of perpetuating it and Jehovah has left us to find that out. Jehovah does not, did not cause these problems and we bring it now upon ourselves. We are part of it. We perpetuate it through our own sinning. He is the solution. But not yet. He can though, mitigate our troubles through our following of his word, and will take away sorrow in due time as he says in Revelations 21. If we say he allows our suffering, then we imply he condones it. He does not. It is we that allow our suffering. Jehovah will help us to endure it if we abide by him. Jehovah is impartial but he does allow us a way out, away from it and the goal of that road out is faith, and faith that the horrors on this earth will end.

              As for the perpetrators of these things, I am unwilling to pass a judgement on their actions and I know that could be irksome to others, but I feel it unwise because none of us make the grade and it is Jehovah who will repay and do we know that righteous justice will follow. If I make a decision on these people, then where do I stop? So I take the biblical advice and refrain from the association of some, as a passive protest, even as I did with some when I was an active witness. But that does not make the bitter pill any the more easy to swallow does it and please believe me when I say I deeply sympathise with your experience.

            • Huldah

              James 1:13 is a study in itself. I’ve always thought it just meant that Jehovah tries us, but not with evil intentions, to train us for our own good and everlasting salvation.

              Why did Jesus tell his disciples to pray “do not lead us into temptation”? Matt. 6:13

              Jesus was ‘led by the holy spirit into the wilderness to be tempted’.
              Matthew 4:1New International Version
              “Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.”

              Jehovah is not the one who takes action for the the trial to take place. In that way HE is not the one who tries us. He may lead us in a certain direction which exposes us to a test or trial. As the Israelites were led to be himmed in between the Red Sea and Pharoah’s forces. As Jesus faced Satan because he obediently followed the spirit into the wilderness. Abraham faced trials because obediently left Ur.

              It’s Satan’s world. There is always someone who will take advantage of that vulnerable position, cruel elders, selfish people, health, money, corruption, we are even enticed by the desires of our own imperfect heart. Jehovah actually draws us onto the battlefield into the line of fire. Often, just by drawing us into the truth. As a result, we get hit by Satan’s arsenal. We endure all manner of
              trial.

              If a father instills in his son a deep desire to serve in the military, glorifies the work, the honor, encourages him to sign up and energizes him with animated words as he sends him off to a deadly battle, does he bear any responsibility, any guilt if that son comes back paralyzed? Perhaps that’s my problem. I would feel guilty even though I wasn’t the one who caused the injury. I would feel bad for encouraging him into the line of fire.

              The father did not do any of that with evil intentions, yet evil resulted. He had to know he was putting his son in real danger, while leading him to believe it was all glory.

              I’ve found that Satan despises truly humble right hearted people. He doesn’t let them rest. He uses every device at his disposal to torture them. Only Jehovah puts up a barrier at a certain point so that we are not tempted beyond what we can bear. We would be surprised what Jehovah thinks we can bear, though. In Job’s trial, Satan was limited by Jehovah initially, not allowed to attack him personally, then he demanded to be able to attack him personally. Jehovah allowed it but not to the point of death.
              I don’t think what Job went through was limited to Job, not based on what I’ve experienced. Jesus said to his disciples that Satan had demanded to have them to sift them as wheat. Luke 22:31

              Jehovah scourges everyone he receives as a son.

              Of course, it could be said that that only applies to the anointed.

              There is the question.

              Is it necessary to submit to intense training to survive what is coming even as one of the great crowd?
              The only other explanation for why Jehovah allows for his servants to be severely tried is what Thinking said, preparation for a special role in his service. ie David, Joseph, Paul, Steven, Christ,

              There is scriptural precedent for the idea that Jehovah requires all of us to submit to difficult training, though.

              Matthew 7:14
              But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

              Luke 13:24
              “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

              Heb. 12:6GOD’S WORD® Translation

              The Lord disciplines everyone he loves. He severely disciplines everyone he accepts as his child.”

              vs7
              7As
              you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as
              his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by
              its father?
              8If
              God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means
              that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.

              Thus my reasoning that those in the congregation who find Satan’s world quite comfortable, who find glory from titles such as elder, pioneer or bethelite without ever having to face a significant trial are untrained children, unloved children, having their ‘reward in full’ in this life.
              Matthew 6:2
              New Living Translation
              When
              you give to someone in need, don’t do as the hypocrites do–blowing
              trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts
              of charity! I tell you the truth, they have received all the reward they
              will ever get.

              I like the real life lesson David and Solomon teach us.
              David was trained, tested refined in the wilderness before he received the full glory of his kingship. Solomon was handed glory, title, power, wisdom, the kingship without a period of serious training. All his wisdom and humility could not replace the value of a period of difficult training by Jehovah. In the end, he sold out. So did Saul. I would give anything to know what Moses went through in Midian. He left Egypt presumptuous and over confident, a murderer even, and returned as the ‘meekest man in all the earth”. He was intensely trained there. It took 40 years.

              This is why I say it matters more what we do now to train to be ready than it does knowing what the mark of the beast is. Jehovah has designed a test that will preserve the Davids while weeding out the Solomons.

              New International Version
              2Peter 2:9-
              if
              this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and
              to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

              You recently mentioned how Jesus asked Jehovah, “Why have you forsaken me?”
              If we presume, as I do, Jesus was an honest person and this was not for show, Jesus, in his own trial, wondered himself why Jehovah had abandoned him temporarily.

              Jesus was forsaken by Jehovah for a period of time. Does Jehovah forsake his most beloved servants at times? Yes, he does and this only to those most beloved to him. No, Jehovah doesn’t try or tempt us, he forsakes us for a time, and this is when Satan gladly steps in to do the job of proving us. (James 1:13)

              1Peter 1;6

              6So be truly glad.b There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while.
              7These
              trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire
              tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than
              mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it
              will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus
              Christ is revealed to the whole world.

              1Peter 5

              “God opposes the proud

              but shows favor to the humble.”a

              6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
              7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

              8Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
              9Resist
              him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of
              believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of
              sufferings.
              10And
              the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ,
              after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and
              make you strong, firm and steadfast.

            • well im sick of it and ive had it and if not for being powerless id slaughter every single One that has ruined my life and inflected pain and hardship on me evey moment of my life! i would cause them pain and despair that they wish they were dead and i would not grant them death so quickly!
              im sick of being a rat doll in a cage abused day to day while Jehovah and the angels sit idle watching my suffering like a guineapig! i think Jehovah should feel and experience everyones pain that has ever lived as a human and see how he likes it!

              ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

            • John 3:16

              Hi D.A. I know you’re hurting right now, and I’m praying for you. I may be a random person on the internet and I can’t feel your pain, but trust me when I say Jehovah does feel our pain. I may not be able to convince you just by typing this, but some day you will know just how much love he is full of.

              Psalms 86:15 But you, O Jehovah, are a God merciful and compassionate,*
              Slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and faithfulness.*

              Trust me, it’s truer than you can possibly imagine…

            • L.H.

              Psalms 34: 18
              “Jehovah is close to the brokenhearted,
              He saves those who are crushed in spirit.”

              Jehovah is even more with you now .

            • i dont know. doesnt feel like it at all. doesnt mean he wont the rest of you

            • L.H.

              D.A., Through the treatment you have had from the persons ruining your life you can feel like you do at the moment.
              In my opinion it is – reason- consequence-, it causes a sort of “crises” in the brain. It’s a trauma you are dealing with.
              I don’t say this because I think i know it all, or know exactly how you feel, but the way you expressed yourself looks familiar to me. Believe me when I say I’ve been there.
              We have to cope with this. Its a long road, but we can learn , like the bible says ,
              (something like) to ” provide benefit to ourselves.”

              What I’ve learned is: accept the feelings that are there. Don’t judge them. Don’t think Jehovah judges you as bad because you are feeling this way.Maybe later on you can look at those feelings with love and understanding. You would do for another!
              “Love your neighbour as yourself” we know is one if the most important commands.
              But some of us need to be reminded to the latter part —“as yourself”—
              When you are traumatized and disadvantaged, that part -to love yourself- wich is natural to do for people, can be a big challenge.( And it has nothing to do with selfishness !!)
              Tell yourself they were wrong/bad, not you.The sad thing is the victim is bothered with feelings of worthlessness, but D.A., THEY are the bad ones.

              I know for sure that if you would know a person who is suffering the way you are doing now, you would’nt judge him/her but would look through the eyes of Jehovah and Jesus with love and compassion.
              They know – reason – consequence -. They want to comfort . You would tell them Jehovah doesn’t like them to suffer. It is the other god, satan, who wants us to suffer and to think the almigthy God is approving it some how.
              So why would you reserve his love for someone else and the dissapprove for yourself?
              Remember it’s a command to love also yourself! i hope you can grant this to yourself. And when there are moments you can’t do it for you, please do it for Jehovah and for the ones on this site who try to help and care about you.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              This is a witness of Jehovah…Comments like this,running from the heart with agape-love…reflecting the true meaning of Jehovahs name

            • im not able to do that anymore L.H..
              i can not love my enemy and i wont
              and for that Jehovah will reject me.
              he sits back allowed this to continue and its sickening. i hope they suffer and die. Jehovah never needed me and hes God so its his way or nothing. so my life was meaningless.

              i want to be left alone now.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Then don’t DA. You don’t have to. Thinking of you DA.

            • John 3:16

              I’ve been there D.A. Not in the exact situation you are with personal enemies, but in the questioning of why Jehovah would even want somebody like me. Why has he helped me find answers and like minded people? It has to be because he cares. Remember the sparrows? We all fall short, and some of us aren’t where we need to be right at this exact moment, but if we give up we’ll never get there. My life isn’t perfect either, and if you knew the lifestyle I’m struggling to give up to do what’s right you’d understand why I feel on a daily basis that I’ll be lucky if I end up with a job scrubbing toilets in the Lake of Fire vs. something even worse. We’re all a work in progress. The End hasn’t come yet, so there’s time to work on the things you think you’ll be rejected for. Never assume you know how Jehovah is going to handle things and never ever give up hope. Every one of us is here if you need us.

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s so beautiful LH, and I’m going to take some of your advice as well. You’re so right DA is dealing with trauma and so true when you say it is a challenge to love ‘yourself’. My sister, who knows quite a bit about mental health issues was always wittering on about a person should learn to love themself first but seeing it written down and how you’ve put it across LH I’m understanding it now. Love this post. ???

            • L.H.

              I hope it will “land” Beverly. It’s difficult.

            • Beverly kenyon

              It will eventually LH. We won’t give up.

            • L.H.

              Yes, thank you, I needed that.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Nice, comforting words. ?

            • Jamie Mac

              Hey D.A. Stay strong.

              Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

              There is an appointed time for everything,
              A time for every activity under the heavens:
              2 A time for birth and a time to die;
              A time to plant and a time to uproot what was planted;
              3 A time to kill and a time to heal;
              A time to tear down and a time to build up;
              4 A time to weep and a time to laugh;
              A time to wail and a time to dance;*
              5 A time to throw stones away and a time to gather stones together;
              A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;
              6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
              A time to keep and a time to throw away;
              7 A time to rip apart and a time to sew together;
              A time to be silent and a time to speak;
              8 A time to love and a time to hate;
              A time for war and a time for peace.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Oh, DA, I read this post if your’s while I was at work before and felt a mixture of rage and absolute sadness at how you feel. Rage at those ghastly people who’ve brought you to such despair and great sadness at your mental anguish and the utter emotional pain you feel when you feel so vulnerable. DA, they might’ve put you down but do not stay down, don’t give them the satisfaction! Jehovah has seen the injustice done to you and the aftermath, the effects of it on your mentality, you’ve been hurt to the core of your soul by those hideous people but they will not get away with it indefinitely. There is going to be an accounting coming for them soon and I hope they feel the heat off every one of those flames you’ve posted and even that is too good for each and everyone of them! Do not let them define you DA. Ones on this site have posted some encouraging words to you DA, please try to find comfort in their words as they truly care about you and your welfare and wellbeing as we’ve gotten to know what a true servant of Jehovah you are. Keep going DA! Thinking if you here in a wet and soggy Manchester.

            • Huldah

              I can sympathize DA.
              You should have heard me last year. Not much different from what you posted here.
              I don’t know your whole story but the pain sure is familiar to me.
              You’re not alone.

              It may seem totally impossible to go on but something will give.

              Jehovah can bring relief from the most surprising sources.

              I was literally waking up with panic attacks every morning for a couple of years feeling pretty much like you posted every morning.
              Then I found an amazing solution to the panic and anxiety. I finally have a way to fight it after years of being paralized with hopelessness.
              This site helps too.
              I’m laughing again after literally years.

              My point is the terrible choke hold of pain you feel has an end. It’s not hopeless. Our collective cries for justice are all going up to Jehovah together.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Huldah, I quickly read this post of your’s this morning and felt upset for you and how deeply you got hurt from ones related to you in your faith. It’s an awful feeling where you even start questioning yourself. Like it’s your fault that they are the horrid ones. I’ve had a super busy day but kept thinking about you and DA and especially your post. Well, you know what Huldah, their loss is our gain! I for one have already gained knowledge from you as you’re very insightful and skillful with the Bible….I very much like what you have to say and share regarding God’s Word and I think your namesake Huldah, the prophetess would give a nod of approval and Jehovah is feeling our pain and collective cries and when he acts and dust has settled and all matters have set straight, the former things will not even come up into our minds. Isa65:17. Rev21:4.

            • Huldah

              Thanks for your compassion, Bev.
              I look forward to forgetting a lot from this world. My husband has said to me a couple of times, “Amnesia would be a blessing for you, wouldn’t it?”
              At this stage in the game, the positives may just outweigh the negatives.
              I’m looking forward to perfect amnesia from Jehovah, instead though.
              None of the bad and all the good.
              The kindness from everyone here helped beyond words to keep the frustration from eating away at me and lift my spirits.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow, Huldah, it’s gone midnight here in my corner of England and I’m in bed not being to sleep and I kept thinking of you so I got up to get a drink of water and heard ping of my device as I left it charging in the kitchen and there was your post! I was thinking ‘Jezebel’ relation-in-law and the rest of them should be left to their 15 minutes and having their reward in full! They targeted you because you were doing everything right as a righteous person, both you and your husband they were jealous because you love spiritual things and was prospering spiritually whereas they love physical things so leave them to it, don’t let their ridiculous fake, transient lifestyle bother you or eat you up, if they don’t change they lose! You’re fortunate as you have a husband, two is better than one and you have that support to be able to go out on the ministry which is the important part of our worship and you also have him with you in KH to sit with….can you imagine if you were solo…you wouldn’t last with the sort of heat they’re firing your way, in fact you should go, smile and do it all the more to show you’re not bothered and to annoy them even more by your presence. They’ll soon get fed up that you’re not reacting and some poor other person will be a target as awful people like them have to have a victim, they can’t help themselves as they’re bullying narcissists….me, me, look at me! If you feel fine staying away that’s your decision but I wouldn’t give them the satisfaction of rolling over as I get the impression that’s where you thrive and prosper…on the Ministry! And I would not get in involved with ‘elder’ and the ‘prominent’ ones, I would not feed their ego’s by pandering to them like they’re special! They are workers in a place of worship! But you do what’s best for you and your husband you’ve done nothing wrong and you have right on your side!

            • Huldah

              Hope you are getting some rest! Oddly my husband and I woke up disturbed about the same thing. He even spoke about it using the same words I wrote in my post, without knowing I wrote it. Sometimes I see Jehovah putting us both on the same page as a small way of encouraging us that we are seeing things in the right way.

              It’s a blessing that we both understand the deeper experience of being in the truth and how all things are not what they seem or say they are.
              A blessing to find others who know this too, like everyone here.

              I’m fighting to get back, but have to go when I know it’s right. Thinking has made some excellent points on how we go to be there for others and we put up with the Judas’ because Jesus did. That’s motivating.

              You can really see how families will turn against each other when things heat up. I think Jehovah’s giving me an object lesson. I feel like a fool sometimes for being so nieve for so long trusting that they knew better than I did because they were so prominent in the truth. The scales fell from my eyes and I’m taking a long time and find it hard to digest what I now see.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yes, I finally nodded off! Phew! Thanks for asking Huldah. Hope both you and your husband settled down also. We were all too trusting and naive Huldah so you’re not on your own feeling like that. I know for a fact you’ll work out something about what you want to do but don’t let those awful ones get to you. Try to remember what Jesus said to Peter regarding the disciple who Jesus used to love, most likely John, he more or less said, never you mind about him, you just keep following me. John21:20,22. That’s sound advice coming from our Teacher, never mind them you just get on with doing your ministry. And you don’t need validation from ‘elders’, co’s, do’s, or any other titles they give themselves! The only validation you need is from Jehovah God, Jesus Christ and your Husband! Also, Suster Thinking has given you good advice as she’s very wise and fierce for her Faith! You’ll get there Huldah.

            • Richard Long

              DA, I hope you will find this supportive, as intended, but I realize that is a tall order given the great pain you are currently suffering. Aren’t all of us here, to varying degrees, realizing that the authority the WT has laid claim to and delegated to the elders was seized by slight of hand and therefore no authority at all, save that authority WE OURSELVES lend to it. Is it not true that absent the yet future parousia, when the faithful​ and

            • Beverly kenyon

              ????

            • Max
            • Max
            • i’ve never really liked the kingdom melodies.

              i think if there is a God then he would be dulled bored out of his mind hearing them.

              thanks for the message though.

              i can tell you im very upset and angry with Jehovah and hes likely not happy with my attitude right now. he should have just zapped me while continuing to sip on a martini in his perfection where everything is fine and peaceful and never tried and hurt by the
              wicked like us human rats are down here

            • Thinking

              You are much braver than I DA..
              And more honest than I…your feelings and despair ..anger..frustrations..are what I have experienced towards Jehovah many times…and I have not been to proud of my angry conversations with him either…my rages are unrepeatable here..In Fact I have shared them with no one…ever!!!

              Your words and flames of fire have only reflected my own..and nobody but Jehovah knows the depth of them…but like you..eventually I had to separate the emotion from the reality….The reality being…he was the supreme creator..the Almighty God…he created me…and without him I was nothing…he was the one with the power …( so what could my rage serve in face of that anyway ) …and I had to realize I do not understand his depth or ways….and yes just like everyone here …I know all the principles and whys….the principles behind allowing Jobs suffering etc etc..just as you and all do here…
              Me..I would have obliterated Satan as soon as I seen his rebellion…and if any angel wanted to follow his course I would have obliterated him too…(yes I know the argument…. and then everyone would have only been obedient out of fear ) and on a personal level..I would have obliterated the elders who helped my sons demise and death..but then in all fairness I would have to obliterate myself for my own serious sins and errors…aaaah…justice is so so hard to understand…and we can not.,,,Jehovah’s patience and love is so deep it is unfathamable.

              ..and yeah at times …on my bad days…..I have said to Jehovah, …we are just cannon fodder while this issue between you and Satan is settled…like a big chess game being played out on the earth…and I would ask him….why did you even bother…why..why did you do it ( create man )

              On my good days I thank him for his patience and love..his understanding..and I’m glad he bothered …
              ( yes I do have good days)
              But you know what Brother….I have nothing but admiration and respect for you….I want you to know you are a comfort to me….and I am proud to serve shoulder to shoulder with such a wounded soldier as you…

            • then we’ll put a tree in the middle that belongs to me that no One is allowed to touch without my permission.

              ok and what if they both disobey and eat form it?

              i dont know i guess i’ll have to think of something but you’ll look like a hero son, water to wine, walking on water, earth & wind revolving around you with a single word and it will take around six thousand years of mankind suffering to death.

              anyone really think Jehovah didnt know the repercussions of that beforehand?

              i dont recall anyone else eating form it other then Adam & Eve.

            • Thinking

              I guess he did that because we are made in his image…and he is a God of justice and love…a God of order and law….so we are therefore bound by those same qualities or attributes…..thus the rule he laid down…otherwise I suppose…and I’m thinking out loud here…if we didn’t have that tree and that command….we would just end up like rabid mongrel dogs anyway..( which has happened anyway ) .and anarchy would reign …..
              You got me thinking…and wondering as to wether the angels were given a command or rule as Adam as eve were given….???
              There is more to this APPOINTED TIME..that I think we just don’t get yet…
              If Jehovah stepped in now he would be breaking his own law code..and then no one in the heavens could really trust him again….aaaaah It does my heard In Thinking about it and trying to work it out…anyway DA..what are we going to do about it anyway…nothing…as we cannot fathom it out….I found a little bit from a site..I’ll post it….but I know you know this anyway…In The mean time we just have to trust him….and you do and have…a remarkable achievement considering your anguish and pain

              If you can overlook that it appears these ones who wrote this article beleive that Jesus and God to be the same….it’s a good article..it drove home to me…JEHOVAH IS A LAWGIVER…..thus his appointed time must some how be tied up with that fact…Perhaps DA..when the two witnesses come and the Holy Spirit is given to some of us…then we will understand better…until then brother …hold,on…xx

              The creator God by his very nature created laws that are reliable. The Apostle Paul tells us:

              For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. (1 Cor. 14:33).
              Excluding the occasional miracle, God Himself chooses to generally operate in conformity with His own laws—the laws of Nature. These are part of His Creation, the expression of His own orderly will. He is Lord and judge and lawgiver.

              For the Lord is our judge; the Lord is our lawgiver; the Lord is our king; he will save us. (Isa 33:22)

              He is the same always.

              Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Heb 13:8)
              Through the prophet Jeremiah God tells us,

              If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws (or ‘fixed order’ in ESV) of heaven and earth, (Jer 33:25)
              Clearly God is speaking of the laws of nature like gravity. The Scripture says:

              Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, … (Jer 31:35)
              God usually operates in a regular way that scientists describe as ‘natural law’. He makes it clear that the continuity of these laws can be relied upon to the same extent as His covenantal word, and vice versa—i.e. totally. He says …

              In Islam the very idea of Laws of Nature would be blasphemy as it is ‘a denial of Allah’s freedom.’ … Allah killed science.—Robert Spencer
              If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever. (Jer 31:36)

              Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time, then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me. (Jer 33:20–22)

            • e.v.g

              Be careful, it is not Jehova’s fault. Keeping faith will help to endure the circumstances, like a shield. There are many wicked men, hurting people on their way, i know that, even in our own relatives.

            • nothings his fault. right?. all this he just [i]allows[/i]. he cant try anyone so allows others to do it for him while he sits back and watches
              his relationship with those trying to put faith i him be destroyed.
              what a a way to make friends.

            • e.v.g

              Calm down bro, this world is unfair and egoistic, the challenge is to worship God on this wicked system, the point is to make the effort and not surrender, think about it.

            • calm down.
              easy to say when youre a God who has is made, not a worm human trapped in a hot box.
              sure i’ll calm-down and ignore the evil lashes. me and everyone else in their own suffering.

              id wanted to love Jehovah not be afraid him

            • e.v.g

              I can’t understand your pain, i don’t know what happened to you or what is happening to you, sometimes we can feel if Jehovah doesnt care, i am not happy with this system too, bearing the bad attitude in my work place, problems with my relatives, diabetes, my wife have a heart problems with high blood pressure, my son is rejected by their school companions, oooh well!!! I’ll wait for the new system.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Sorry e.v.g to hear of all those things you and your family are having to cope with and you’re right about using that Shield of Faith to help endure.

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’re not a lowly worm DA, you’re highly valued in Jehovah’s eyes and his Son.

            • Huldah

              I know you are on to other topics now, DA, but I thought these scriptures might help when these feelings inevitably come back.

              Job 30

              20“I cry out to you, God, but you do not answer;

              I stand up, but you merely look at me.

              21You turn on me ruthlessly;

              with the might of your hand you attack me.

              22You snatch me up and drive me before the wind;

              you toss me about in the storm.

              Psalm 73: by Asaph

              13Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure

              and have washed my hands in innocence.

              14All day long I have been afflicted,

              and every morning brings new punishments.

              Psalm 88 by He’man (yes HE MAN, Lol)

              13But I cry to you for help, Lord;

              in the morning my prayer comes before you.

              14Why, Lord, do you reject me

              and hide your face from me?

              15From my youth I have suffered and been close to death;

              I have borne your terrors and am in despair.

              16Your wrath has swept over me;

              your terrors have destroyed me.

              17All day long they surround me like a flood;

              they have completely engulfed me.

              18You have taken from me friend and neighbor—

              darkness is my closest friend.

              Matthew 27:46 Jesus

              “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

              Little known fact, GOD forsakes his favorite people (for a time)

              Hebrews 12:6

              Berean Literal Bible
              For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.

              1 Peter 5:10
              And
              after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who
              has called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself restore you,
              secure you, strengthen you, and establish you.

              Psalm 30:5
              For
              His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may
              last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.

              Still not easy, doesn’t feeeeel like a little while (usually isn’t in human terms), but at least there’s a reason, an end and you are not the only one.

            • i’ll read it a little later today

            • Joseph S.

              Brother DA, this is a long shot, but may I suggest something to maybe help with your pain……….

              Watch the movie The Shack

              https://youtu.be/MasZbUqMWa8

            • i have no money and am dirt broke (but that movie is online i guess but i still cant afford to watch it on a dead computer right now). everything is attacking me. ive been trying very hard to keep things stable. im going to be homeless soon again but the last seven months ive been partially homeless already. i got ripped off then a chain-reaction keep happening just as i said but the solution to the problem is a proper environment. im not well at all. things are bad just as i try to keep them from getting worse something more. i just need things to keep going in a repeated pattern they way they were without bombs attacking me. not much you can do but tell Jehovah i need help as if he dont know already. i seen these things a mile away which it why im very careful but people and bs.

            • Beverly kenyon

              DA, I’m feeling very sad reading this post of your’s. Can’t believe you’re more or less homeless and yes, the key is continuity in your life and awful some one ripped you off when you’re barely surviving yourself. I want to help you and I’m not hearing you say you’re too proud for help. Proud won’t get you far DA but help will while you’re struggling! There’s no shame in accepting help as I know you would do the same for anyone. Richard Long and Daisy have offered you help so let us do that for you. We’re all related to you in our shared Faith so we’re allowed to help you and Jehovah expects us to, it’s an obligation of ours. Please tell Daisy or email me how I can get this help to you….maybe Joseph can step in and it can be done via him. You need practical help DA so please get in touch!

            • Beverly kenyon

              One more thing DA, I can’t as a Christian and in good conscience greet you and wish you well, then keep walking on but I can clearly see you’re in need. There’s a scripture regarding such a thing but can’t remember where but the principle is there and I’m sorry for doing this publically but I don’t have an email address for you. Please get in touch DA.

            • Joseph S.

              URGENT,

              D.A.
              PLEASE GO TO YOUR LOCAL POST OFFICE AND OPEN UP A POST OFFICE BOX.
              AND POST IT ASAP
              SO WE CAN GET YOU SOME MUCH NEEDED FUNDS.

              IN OUR PRAYERS

              AMEN

            • Southern ShaSha

              Joseph, how can this be done?

            • Joseph S.

              The ball is in his court now, he has to set up a POST OFFICE BOX
              OR
              GO FUND ME account.
              IN order for any of us to help!

              Thanks for your interest ?

            • Southern ShaSha

              Thank you Joseph.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Hi Joseph, has anyone been in touch with D.A.

            • Joseph S.

              Greetings from the heart of Virginia, no nothing yet, no response…….

            • Daisy

              I’ve written quite a few mails to him over the last couple of days but so far have not heard a word back.

              I’m getting really deeply concerned.

              I’ve just mailed him again to ignore what RK has said about him having personal interests , sorry Robert I’m not
              being rude but what could be more personal than standing in line at a food bank in the scorching heat and having no roof over his head any minute now.

              DA…please respond to me as soon as you can privately, away from here, it’s between you and me. You may not even have the means to respond, I feel so impotent. Get in touch NOW my brother, give me a phone number.

              Beverly , Joseph and ShaSha want to hear from you too….the ones whose company I’d want to share when facing the enemy…please DA don’t delay any longer. Daisy
              Please…

            • I don’t have a problem with you helping him as long as he doesn’t solicit it. I have helped him in the past. And unless something has changed I also happen to know that he is not totally without resources.

            • Daisy

              I won’t begin to analyse the word solicit, it’s oh too painful for me to comprehend knowing DA as I do and loving him as I do.
              Hopefully those resources you think he might have will miraculously produce a belly full of food and a roof over his head and he was making it all up all along and he deserves an oscar in my opinion.

            • I am not implying he is making up anything. He has been going through an ordeal for years and years. But since we have put his personal affairs out there, he told me he receives a disability check every month. But I hope you can help him. I really do.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Daisy, I’d always want to share your company under any circumstances but especially facing the enemy. So kind of you reaching out to DA. It reminds me of that scripture. 1John 3:17. You have a big heart Daisy.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Thank you for the response Daisy. Good seeing you back, concerned when any take to long a vacation. Yes, I have been concerned about D.A.’s comments the past little while. Over this past year or so on this site he has always demonstrated such love and affection to and for Jehovah and Jesus. He has on the other hand shown he is in a crisis, pain situation. Please share even if you can only say you have heard he’s hanging in there. Love and good health to you Daisy!
              Joyce

            • Daisy

              Thanks Joyce. I wish I could take a vacation! Feeling like I need one!
              Jehovah and Jesus is all he’s got surely, even though he’s angry with Jehovah. HE understands.
              He’s not replying to my pleads I’m sorry but of course I’ll keep you posted should he get in touch.
              Love to you Joyce.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Please DA, just open up that account or if you have a PayPal account. You just need some help to tide you over. Joseph is right, it’s URGENT. We WANT to help you without any obligations. Just the quickest way for you to get some much needed funds to tide you over. I know you have your human dignity and we respect that but we know you, we have a relationship with you and no one will think any less of you for accepting help. We might be the only extended family you have and family look out for each other. Come on DA. Think! Just tell Joseph your account in an email then he can pass it on to us….all done privately and Jesus says, when we give, we should give in secret as our Heavenly Father looks on in secret when we do. Sometimes in life DA, you’ve got to learn to accept help from ones who genuinely care about your welfare! You’re stuck at the moment and we want to get you going! Come on DA!

            • John 3:16

              I’m in.

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s fantastic John 3:16! Now we just need DA to be in! So very kind if you.

            • John 3:16

              We need everybody in!!! 🙂 I hope he does it. I have no doubt that he’ll get help from everyone here. Come on D.A. Let us help you.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hey DA, sorry to be a nuisance again! But think on this for a second, we don’t celebrate Christmas and Birthdays…even though there’s a brilliant article on Birthdays on Baruq, so it’s a conscience thing….so it’s got to be alright to gift each other and don’t people of the world help each other when they’re in need so how much more we should gift and help each other! Also, you will be doing something for us as well…you’ll be making us feel HAPPY! As when a person gives it makes that person feel happy! So you’ll be happy and we’ll be happy…giving is a two way street. Go on DA!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Come on fella! Come on DA! We NEED to HELP you to HELP YOURSELF! We want you to crank up that computer to watch that film (movie), we want you to gain back some of your self respect as a worthwhile valued human being! Come on DA allow us to do this for you!! ?????

            • Southern ShaSha

              Beverly, do you know if D.A. Lives in the states?

            • He lives in Southern California

            • Southern ShaSha

              Thank you Robert, do you have any idea what area?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, DA is American and lives in your country ShaSha. So very worried about his welfare. I know nothing much about DA. Don’t even know what State he lives in. Just need him to give the go ahead about where to put funds in account for him to get him back on his feet and to tide him over this troubling and difficult time but he might be having feelings of shame and low self esteem cos that’s what happen when you’re poverty stricken and can’t see light at the end of the tunnel…it’s grinding!

            • Southern ShaSha

              Hi Beverly, this thread is so long each time I click on I must go through it’s entirety. Anyway, Robert said Southern California. Trying to figure out how to forward if and when D.A. Accepts. Also Beverly there is no shame in any of this and he needs to realize he is just the beginning of the situation we will all experience soon I believe. So when someone gets it figured out we can move forward, hopefully.

            • Beverly kenyon

              ShaSha, that is so wise! Yes, we’re all going to experience same situation soon! I just click on ‘reply to Southern ShaSha’ when your reply goes to ‘mail’ and it takes then wait a couple of seconds while that symbol thing whirls around then your reply pops up! Hope he’s agreeable ShaSha and lets us all try and help him by supplying an account so we can send the much needed funds! Off to work now…yeah, that dirty word! Lol.

            • Beverly kenyon

              P.s ShaSha, what I do know about DA is that he’s a lover of righteousness and a servant of Jehovah and he has the heart of twenty men! Hope you and family are okay ShaSha.

            • Southern ShaSha

              I agree Beverly, he is a lover of Jehovah and his righteousness. His deep love and faith I believe is why this miserable system has become so burdensome in his life. When we love good and our god it’s difficult to bare up to the wickedness so prevalent in our every breath. D.A. Is a brother of great value, I respect him very much, he has always been here to lend so much spiritual help, able to pick me up more times than he knows!!!

            • Joseph S.

              DA,

              We have all needed help at some point in life, we’re here to help, let us help you.

              ???

            • A few years ago DA was in a similar situation and he asked for help from e-watchman readers, but I shut him down. I didn’t want him using readers for his personal interests. So, he may not respond now.

            • Joseph S.

              Interesting, little is known about him, no state, no name, no age , no backround…..

            • i didnt see this comment till now (do to bad cercomstances lately; catching up) and that is part of my delima. i only needed help (never asked for money) then and i gave credit to Jehovah for getting me out of that rut at the time.

              all i know is i should have been set free off ths planet long ago and be happy in peace witout these bad chapters in my life

            • Beverly kenyon

              Don’t say stuff like that DA. The beautiful righteous person you are shines through. I’m glad you still have your space and position on this planet. Joseph is right, you’ve GOT to tell him your story!

            • Joseph S.
            • idk, have to see what to do

            • Joseph S.

              You have GOT to tell me your story as well

              Selec21@aol.com

              https://youtu.be/cjWNckjaRWQ

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hey DA, it’s me again, the annoying nuisance! Lol. Hope you’re giving it some thought about setting up an account so funds can be put in for you. I know you might not like it but think sensible…you need help to get yourself sorted. Isn’t this forum a community for us to support each other in all sorts of way. You’ve provided amazing spiritual help on the scriptures and Brother King’s articles and so much humour, for years, a true ewatchman veteran, so now it’s time for us to give something back not that you gave of your knowledge and wit for anything back but it would be nice for us to show our appreciation to you. I bet people in the world have helped you out in the past so surely you’ll let us, your brothers and sisters help you. I can’t bear the thought of you going without. Just email Joseph or Daisy with an account number, Post Office where you are or Paypal or some other way just so all of us can access it! Just give an address and I’ll even post it to you but that’ll take longer! Come on DA!

            • youre not annoying. the Watchmans Post is like a
              tall strong wide bricked wall
              and your company here for
              others are the vines of morning glories that cover it

            • Beverly kenyon

              Awww DA, that’s so sweet! ☺️ I was pecking your head a bit though and that’s not good if you’re feeling unwell. So glad you’re posting again and just set someything up and pass on details. You have my email address and you have Daisy’s so there’s no excuse now. Lol.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hiya DA, hope you’ve had a change of heart and will open some sort of account for us to get some funds to you. I know you’re ill at the moment which doesn’t help your bad situation but somehow please try to open an account. Jehovah has answered your prayers if you really think about it…as a sister said, isn’t that how prayers to Jehovah works at times…he’s seen your need and now he’s auctioned some help for you so in a way wouldn’t that be working against him…not meaning to guilt trip you or make you feel worse than you already do but please do the wise thing and accept some help just to help you over this difficult hurdle. Please think straight DA. Come on fella!

            • idk, i’ll see what i can do if possible

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, do that DA. Great you’ve replied and you’re up for it! Hope you’re doing okay for now. When you’ve sorted it out get in touch with Daisy to pass on details. Thinking of you. Or get in touch with me as you should have my email details.

            • Southern ShaSha

              D.A. Our prayers to Jehovah can be answered through our family in truth. If we do not help one another in need be it physical or spiritual, it’s of little use to claim our service to Jehovah. Any one of us could and WILL be in the same situation eventually so let’s all be prepared to help or receive in our time of need!

            • Jamrs 2:16

            • Southern ShaSha

              Hit the nail on the head D.A. You are loved very much, so happy you are back with us!!!!

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’ve been deeply wounded emotionally DA and it’s okay to get it all out as Jehovah understands that as didn’t Job do just that in all his misery?! I think a few of us can identify with the things you have the guts to openly talk about…it’s real human misery, it’s happened to you and you’re still traumatised from your experiences and actually getting it out is called talking therapy. Thinking of you DA.

            • John 3:16

              I just came across this scripture while reading about other things, and it reminded me of our conversation about how we’ve both said things we shouldn’t have. Maybe it’ll help both of us out the next time those feelings come up.

              Malachi 3-13 “Your words against me have been strong,” says Jehovah.
              And you say: “How have we spoken against you among ourselves?”+
              14 “You say, ‘It is of no value to serve God.+ How have we benefited by keeping our obligations to him and by walking somberly before Jehovah of armies? 15 Now we consider presumptuous people happy. Also, those who practice wickedness are successful.+ They dare to put God to the test and get away with it.’”
              16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him+ for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on* his name.+
              17 “And they will be mine,”+ says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property.*+ I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him.+ 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person,+ between one serving God and one not serving him.”

              He knows the things we go through can really suck sometimes, but he’s keeping score. It’s an uphill battle all the way in this wicked system, but I don’t doubt for a second that those that suffer the most will be rewarded the most 🙂

            • … ty

            • John 3:16

              You’re welcome. Good to have you back. I know you’re struggling, and I don’t know if your ability to communicate with us may be limited with your computer problems, but we’re here for you. Not all of us are going through the same types of struggles for our faith, but we are in it together, and we’re commanded to help one another. By the looks of it, you landed in a good place here, even if out there sucks. And it does. I’ve paid some high prices myself. It really really sucks, but it’s nothing compared to the reward. Just keep your eyes on the prize. Do they still sing that song? I never liked singing. I just lip synced.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely sound advice.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have so been there in what D.A. is saying. Until one comes to grips with the meaning of Christ’s sacrifice, the time for action, the love that Jehovah has for us in staying his hand so that all who wish it, can find salvation, there is no inner peace and acceptance in Jehovah’s impartiality at this time. I fear for D.A. and the agonies he is going though. But there is some good to come out of it in that if we can see his pain, Jehovah must see it more plainly and will extend his hand the moreso.

            • Joseph S.

              Hey D.A.,
              I have to admit your probably right about the kingdom boring melodies, knocks the whole heavenly arrangement into a deep coma!

            • John 3:16

              When I have my bad days, I try to think of how polar opposite things will be in the New System. I think the more we hate the bad things that happen in this world, the more suited we are for that one. We just have to be careful how we direct our anger and frustration. I’ve said my share of things I probably shouldn’t have too, but they came out. I think it can be healthy to a degree, as long as we learn from it and don’t hold on to it, otherwise it will just eat you up and you run the risk of self destructing. I’ve come close several times myself. The conclusion I keep coming to is that Jehovah can’t just let anyone into the Kingdom. He needs people that are passionate towards his will, otherwise we’ll all roll over at the slightest temptation, and it’s Adam and Eve all over again. I can tell that you have that passion. Please see this for what it is. Satan is having a laugh at our expense and rubbing it in Jehovah’s face that we can’t make sense of it all, and in our frustration we lash out at him. You’re not alone in this. Like I said, I’ve done it myself and I’m not proud of it. At least we all have each other. Where else can you go and find other people that are at least open about this stuff? We may not fit the Kingdom Hall model, but at least we’re real and you can talk to us about your problems. We’re all praying for you and I hope you’re able to sort things out. Don’t let Satan win. For your own sake, and as a reminder to others, just be careful that you don’t take it out on him either. The scriptures warn us about that too (Jude 1:9).

            • Huldah

              On the point you made about not feeling you would get baptized had you known what was in store for you.
              I
              often wonder if Moses would have forfeited his life in Egypt if he had
              known he was not heading for a quick victory and triumphant entry into
              the promised land. I don’t think he would have fit in in Egypt, but
              would he have taken the risks he did had he known what his life would
              be?

              Burt brought up James 1:13 ‘God does not try us with evil things’.
              I was meditating on it a bit and looking at other translations.
              I’ve always thought of it as Jehovah doesn’t try us with evil intent.
              I can’t see how he can say he doesn’t try us at all.

              This has led me to a question that I’m trying to sort out.

              Are we humans just really off in our sense of responsibility for what happens as a result of our choices, actions and advice?

              Seems like it’s honorable to feel responsible for what happens as a result of our actions or choices.

              I wonder if we are subjected to so much guilt and blame in this world that we take inordinate responsibility for things.

              Does Jehovah feel responsible for how his organization is abusing humble ones or does he feel that he has set up an organization with good intentions and he has a good reason for letting it apostasize so he doesn’t feel the he himself is trying or tempting us with these evils?

              We often hear the excuse that one has “good intentions” when they say or do things that are hurtful or harmful. It could be said of the elders that didn’t report child abuse to the authorities that they had the good intention of protecting Jehovah’s name.

              I just know about myself that if I told someone that they should dedicate their life to me, that my organization is full of loving people who will be supportive, loving shepherds, that my load is light and refreshing, I’d feel responsible to live up to that. I would feel terrible if someones life was ruined or badly damaged because they trusted me and I did not keep to my promise.

              I would feel that I had tried that person with something evil, not evil intentions, but I would feel responsible.

              I’m a little tired and under the weather today so I’m not wrapping my head around this very well at all. Wonder what you think, since you have some skin in the game too. (Of course, I welcome answers from anyone who wants to chime in.)

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, and the Germans said they had good intentions but they murdered millions but that doesn’t make it right Huldah. Tired of hearing excuses for ones who wilfully hurt and abuse others in places of worship i.e KH’s. They’re the wrongdoers but no one is allowed to criticise them or call them out for their nasty unkind ways. Why?! I’m not having a go at you Huldah as you’ve got your own problem going on because of stuff like this.

            • Thinking

              Aaaah sis if I only had the answers to your questions…..but I don’t ..some one else here may.
              I know Jehovah does not test us out himself but he certainly allows us to be tested by Satan…nor do I know why he placed a hedge around Job and not some other person who was among his own Israelite people ( then again he may have and we just have not been told )

              I was told by an invited/ chosen one that I had to view things thru Jehovahs eyes and station…and stop viewing things from a mans point of view ..
              As our wresting is not amongst mankind ..but the wicked spirit forces….and he is bound by his own laws of Justice….Satan won the right to rule mankind as that is what Adam and Eve chose…so there is a legal case going on between the two of them ( Satan and Jehovah )that I do not fully understand …he gave Satan the right to rule as god of this world for an appointed time…or rather he allowed his own justice system for him to do that…

              It is an incredible act of mercy that he has interceded at all..in raising up a people for his name thru out mankinds history …and giving up his sons life on our behalf….
              What has been played out in the heavens seems like it is being played out on the earth as well ..the rebellion and satanic influence seems to mirror what little we know about the heavenly situation……he infiltrates each people Jehovah raises up…

              I may be totally wrong but it seems as much as Jehovah wants to settle things..he is bound by his own appointed time….how own justice system …which he has to live by and Satan knows this.
              Also,we have to accept our own decisions and actions and the hurt they bring us….even the scriptures support this…

              So why does Jehovah watch a little witness child being continually raped by her ministerial servant father….even tho she calls out to him for help ….how can any human really understand such a allowance……but his ways are not our ways…and yet we must still walk by faith..not knowing these answers fully….

              Sure we say it is not his time yet..And he will bring about justice to all those that suffered…but it’s never really that comforting to the raped child…is it…..

              On a personal level…I let men rule me and I put my trust in them too much…so I am at great fault..as I allowed myself to be blinded to a degree….have not most of us..did not Jehovah warn us all the way thru how corrupt his house would be..how careful we had to be…did he not warn us there would be wolves IN sheeps clothing…that there would be blind and harsh shepards ….are we now to blame him because we put our trust in men and nobles….no…he did warn me….
              Time and time again he wrote down the examples of his ancient people,and their rulers and how they became sinful…how their leaders became proud and stubborn ..he didmthis as an example for us to learn from….but did I…no…

              Yet kindly he opened my eyes to help me keep going and protect myself in his corrupt house…because soon others will need help too…he did not abandon me in my ignorant confusion….so how can I abandon those brothers and sisters who were once like me….
              We must walk by faith you and I sis….not understanding very much at all really …but we are making a reply to He that is taunting Jehovah….

              PROVERBS 27 :11…be wise my son and make my heart rejoice so that I can make a reply to him that is taunting me

              Sis we will never understand why Jehovah does certain things…as to drawing people to a corrupt house….and perhaps heaps of heartache with that….( to a point ..but not fully I guess )…. but the dragnet illustration in Revelation does help a lot….

              JOB 37: Understandimg the Almighty is beyond our reach .
              He is great in Power.amd he NEVER VIOLATES HIS JUSTICE and abundance righteousness….

              Don’t give up sis….he is opening your eyes a little to help you endure…and soon sis…all this confusion will be done away with..and we will worship Our God with purity and the right way…..never again to have such pain along with it….but for now…we still have a job to do…..
              Much warmth and love to you from a sis who battles as well.

            • Huldah

              I’ll have to think more about the point about Satan having the right to rule over us for now. Excellent explanation.

              That’s really what makes the fact that the elders always parrot off ” just leave it in Jehovah’s hands” so reprehensible.
              Jehovah has left it in human hands. A kingdom is only as righteous as it’s king. A congregation is only as holy as its leaders.
              Man is like the creeping things of the earth with no one to rule over them, because their leaders are spineless.

              Hab 1:13-15
              3But you are pure and cannot stand the sight of evil.

              Will you wink at their treachery?

              Should you be silent while the wicked

              swallow up people more righteous than they?

              14Are we only fish to be caught and killed?

              Are we only sea creatures that have no leader?

              15Must we be strung up on their hooks

              and caught in their nets while they rejoice and celebrate?

              This is probably going to sound presumptuous but…
              I know for myself that I truly did not follow men. I fought the elder’s bad influence every step of the way. I also fought the perfuntory manner of serving Jehovah that I saw among the general population of the congregation.

              When they were worshipping fancy homes, I sold mine.
              When they were seeking great things for themselves in careers and fame, I left mine behind.
              When they were using their family as an excuse to stay in their comfort zones,I was willing to leave mine to go serve where the need was greater.
              While their attention was diverted to sports, food, vacations, etc…
              I kept my focus squarely on the truth, the ministry, the bible, personal study.
              I’m certain of how sincere and focused I was. I know I prayed every day for wisdom. I know I looked to and obeyed Jehovah and not men. I learned to hate the arrogance of the elders and the complacency of the congregation almost 20 years ago.

              My greatest dusturbance right now is that Jehovah has valued and honored that far less than he has my adulterous sister in law who cheated on and maligned her husband (my husband’s best friend) then used her adultery to maneuver herself out of her marriage and into marriage to another more controllable brother all the while never being disfellowshipped and, now, of course, is pioneering and rubbing it in our faces that, obviously, Jehovah agrees with everything she and her Jezebelian mother did.
              All the while, accusing us of being immodest because we sacrificed too much for Jehovah and now ( in their minds) we’re justly paying the price for it.

              It’s like Hannah’s husband said, there is no platform for justice in the congregation.

              My husband’s family is adept at playing the politics of the truth and coming out on top. They’ve studied how to get away with things for generations.

              They are very happy and popular in the congregation too and they love to point that out as proof they are spiritual people.

              Hard to know what to think of Jehovah sometimes, when all you have is his people to represent him.

              Thanks for your well thought out and caring reply.
              Maybe you’re just further along in your acceptance and I’m still in the shock and denial phase. ?
              You definitely have a humble take on it.
              May Jehovah bless you for your good attitude and willingness to keep trying to make sense of it all.

            • John 3:16

              Believe me Huldah, your sacrifices are paying off. I look forward to your take on things every day because I know you’re one of the good ones. You are more grounded and humble than any of those people you’re talking about. You say that you feel Jehovah has valued and honored your sacrifice less. I can see where you’re coming from, but how many times do the scriptures mention the people that are living it up right now getting their reward in full, whereas those that are willing to sacrifice receive theirs later? This is how we’re tested, and based on your insight and love for the truth, it looks like you and your husband are passing with flying colors.

            • Huldah

              Thank you. Your comment brought tears to my eyes.
              What a loving congregation I’ve found here! Robert’s work and sacrifice is paying off.

              I think you all will help me get past the hurt and anger and find peace, forgiveness and open heartedness.

              I’m trying to keep myself grounded with the scriptures because, when all is said and done, that’s the only real basis for the truth.

              Thanks for the great compliment?

            • John 3:16

              🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Huldah, you can’t say all your service to Jehovah has gone unnoticed by him. I don’t have to tell you scripture but if Jehovah can see when a little bird falls to the ground, Matt 10:29 and doesn’t Jehovah knows exactly the hairs on our heads he has seen all your service and sacrifice to him and as a good for nothing slave isn’t that what you should be doing anyway circumstances allowing! I’m sure you did all those things willingly and not just to score brownie points. I have a friend who if she gives you anything she will bring it up what she’s given and done for you and it makes a person feel like, well, don’t bother doing or giving me anything if you’re going to throw up in my face as you obviously weren’t sincere in giving or doing as you expect something in return or I have to eternally be grateful to you! Everything we do for Jehovah God, all the sacrifices should be straight from the heart and sincere and not reminding him of the long list of things we’ve done for him and how he now owes us! Didn’t he give us the greatest gifts of all, the chance of eternal life and the actual Life of His Only Son so whatever we do for him really pales in comparison!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              So true..

            • But woe to you who are rich, for you are having your consolation in full.
              Woe to you who are filled up now, for you will go hungry.
              Woe, you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. – Jesus Christ

            • Huldah

              Beautiful.
              Thanks Robert.
              What a reflection of Jehovah’s love, the gracious replies I’ve received to my mad rants. Lol

              Hope you are finding nice weather for your work!??????

            • Huldah

              I keep thinking (Thinking) about what you said about yourself being responsible for trusting in men too much. I am saddened to think that after all you have been through and the training you still submit to that you should have to feel any self-blame for doing what Jehovah directs his people to do. Follow the shepherds like the sheep they are.

              A psychologist once made the excellent point that often adults who were molested as children look back on that time with the eyes of an adult and judge themselves for not knowing that what was happening was wrong. They turn their anger on themselves. They blame themselves because they can only look back from the perspective of someone informed.

              Since I read that, I catch myself doing it all the time. I do it to my husband too. It’s a really cruel version of the blame game.

              You demonstrate your great humility and sincerity toward the truth in that you are willing to take the blame for your struggles, but I can’t help but feel it’s unwarranted. We as humans, sadly can’t even remember what we were thinking in the past that led us to make the decisions we did. The important thing is that you love truth enough to open your eyes to it or perhaps Jehovah loved you enough to do so for you. A little of both, I suspect.

              You are right that we shouldn’t blame Jehovah. That’s hard sometimes to tell you the truth.

              I guess blame and guilt are two things that we should just thrust away as soon as they come up into our hearts. It seems these are favorite tools of Satan.

              I love Ezekiel 34 because it denounces the shepherds who feed themselves and neglect the sheep. Interestingly my husband read the chapter and found a take on it that I overlooked.

              In that chapter, it is not the sheep that are blamed for wandering and straying, it is the shepherds. Jehovah simply states that he will personally gather them back, never scolding them for doing what sheep do…wander when the shepherd is careless, get injured, get lost.

              Yet, some of us, still fight and struggle to stay in the fold, we take the responsibility to lead other sheep to greener pastures and try to cure their wounds. We do this not because of these shepherds but despite them.

              14“I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me” John 10:14

              I think you’ve been following the “good shepherd” all along. The wolves in sheep’s clothing just kept getting in your way. Just as Jesus knows his sheep, Satan knows them too. I think we’ve both seen how much he hates them.

              For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
              against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and
              against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Ephesians 6:12 NIV)

              Much love and respect for your faith, Thinking.

            • “liked minded people that are in search of the truth” = Jehovah’s witnesses. example: me and others on this site who are not ex and who “put up with one another” and even “gathering together” at Kingdom Hall’s from time to time

            • Brian

              Sorry DA but I can’t associate with people that ” shut the door of the kingdom of HEAVEN in people’s faces. You
              yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are TRYING to.” This is exactly what the JW’s have done since 1935 and NOT ONE of them can deny it, they were even sent allegedly with the power of the holy spirit to “separate the sheep and the goats’ and gather the great crowd” because they think that they are exclusively “the authority at the full limit of the appointed times” that apparently you know is not the full limit so there still is NO such entity at this point in time. Not only it is what they have done, they are the only ones that I know of that openly do this. As this is the most important task for Christians to undertake, to stand to be brothers with Jesus even if they don’t become that, that is what they are standing for with the exception of the JW’s, this is a very serious situation and a product of a self righteous condition, you can call it delusion or what ever you like but it is what it is.

            • stereotyping much? be wheat-like for those in the kingdom to take after your example

            • Beverly kenyon

              Brian, I’m in agreement with you in what you’ve wrote in your post. DA is right that there are still wheat like ones in KH’s and there is and that’s why I’m leaving that for Jesus to sort out as written in the scriptures. In the meantime, for me on a personal level, I’ll keep following and listening to Our King, Jesus Christ like he told us to. The MOL, those 7 men, the gb (I do not use upper case for gb as that would be elevating them), can hijack Jehovah’s words and use it for their own agenda and fool JW’s but I’m so happy I know their identity and that’s why I don’t acknowledge them at all! They’ve set themselves up as Godlike to millions of JW’s so yes they are the MOL without doubt as doesn’t the MOL set himself up as a God. And as for being ‘powerful’ men, well, that’s so laughable as they’re only given an illusion of ‘power’ by humans who have forgotten about worshipping Jehovah God in Spirit and Truth!

            • Brian

              Hi Beverly, yes I am sure there are plenty of “wheat like ones” in the JW congregations, I also am of the belief that there are so many of these still within all of the Christian congregations of the world, some no doubt “beaten and tossed about” by their own leaderships that have failed to nurture them properly, they will come out we can be guaranteed of this as Jehovah will not bring to ruin anyone that has actively put their trust in Jesus.

            • Joseph S.

              100 % agree!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Just like Jesus illustration about the” fine seed” and the “weed”
              “the field is the world” (Matt.13:38)
              So..where was the fine seed? only in the JW congregation?
              not according to Jesus…they are all over the world along with weeds among them..
              And as we know..the fine seed is not harvested yet…because the weed must be plucked away first..

              Btw..farmers in old days used to do it that way..there is a type of weed (in Norway its called klint)that looks exactly like wheat…its hard to see the difference ..not until its close to harvest time..that weed (klint)will still be green while the real wheat become ripe and yellow and heavy of grain hanging down by the weight while the weed still strait because there is no grain on it..only tiny seeds who will become more weed if they is not removed just in right time to prevent those weed-seed to ripen and fall to the ground…so Jesus illustration is very very good…in the harvest time,the difference between the wheat and the weed(klint) will be very visible and easy for all to see.And at that time things just have to happen swift to avoid those weed-seed to ripe and fall out and to rescue all the wheat that is of great value for the “Farmer”

              So yes i agree 100% too …Jehova looks closely at every single persons heart where ever they my be all over the world/field…:-)

            • Joseph S.

              I know this to be so true since I was a little boy, thanks for sharing and making my thoughts seem sensible!

            • Richard Long

              Even the WT has informed us of the bearded darnell, an imitation wheat. Can’t find the article on my phone, but early nineties, I think.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, I remember that WT study article….in the days when I used to hang off their every word not knowing I was being groomed like a good little brainwashed robot! They forgot to mention that weed in Norway that Arvid’s mentioned in his post!

            • Richard Long

              it is likely the same genus of plant, just named differently by region.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I’m even blaming them for not mentioning that weed as well Richard! Lol. That’s how they’ve got me! Grrrr! ?

            • Richard Long

              Well, who am I to stand in the way of anyone receiving their just reward, Right?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Right!

            • Thinking

              I agree with much of what you say…..as Job did not belong to Gods house at the time….and the example of that man expelling the demons ..and the apostles getting upset over it..yet Jesus said leave him alone…..but I would,like to make a point that some seem to be missing…
              Jehovah is also concerned for his genuine sheep with in his cong at this time…the ones in the household he will judge IPeter 4:17……
              Please do not forget the wheat in this household…we have a responsibility
              towards them.
              Jehovah expects us to act like true brothers and sisters and support them..

              The Rightous man will be saved where ever he is!!!!…..yet that does not release us of of our responsibility to care for his sheep in his house at this time…
              Thus indeed proving oneself to be faithful and discreet…

            • i agree, the kingdom comes into power on earth when the Master returns. so when he says “out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling” like Robert has pointed out, to me it meant more then just those in the congregations, no?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, Jehovah has blessed you with so much knowledge, wisdom and discernment as what you write is truly amazing! Wow! And you’re so humble about it!

            • Max

              Wow, that weed in Norway is a very good analogy.
              Thank you for sharing

            • Richard Long

              I’m coming around to the notion that, at the very least, we JW’s have been presumptuous in the extreme to claim exclusivity of salvation. Literally thousands of times in my life I have spoken with someone not JW and said to myself, “surely this person is more agreeable to Jehovah’s heart than I”

            • Beverly kenyon

              Agree!

            • Beverly kenyon

              When I went back briefly to the KH last year, I actually saw and spoke to some wheat like ones, the most humble ones, ( well, I hope they are wheat ), and yes, I truly believe that there are many in other Christian congregations, it’s not exclusive to only JW’s hence, Jesus’ word, ‘who really is the faithful and discreet slave’? I’m not perfect like Jesus was and he put up with Judas going so far as to even wash his feet and I’m sure if his other disciples knew his indentify, especially Peter with his fiery personality, would’ve wanted to associate with him and be around him as that would be a natural human reaction. And I’m not masochistic in that I would knowingly go into an mentally abusive environment as that’s what some of those congregations are like. Being treated like that is mental abuse and in my country you can get a charge sheet for that if you were in an abusive relationship with someone. So even the superior authorities have put a law in force to protect someone of mental abuse and it would be ridiculous to offer yourself up for more abuse and endorse the actions of your abuser by saying, yeah, that’s okay to treat me like that! Also, just like Jesus said, he never lost not one of his disciples except the son of destruction, then, just like you said, Jehovah will not bring to ruin anyone actively putting their trust in Jesus!

            • Huldah

              Good word masochistic. My hubby and I often use the same illustration about going back to an abuser. They are really tarnishing Jehovah’s name and reputation as a loving God.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              “And I will shake all the nations,and the precious things of all the nations will come in”
              (Haggai 2:7)…so..yes Jehovah know very well that there are precious persons scattered about in all the nations…and he intend to find them all,like a gold-digger wont give up until he have washed out the whole creek to find every little gold nuggets..
              Just like Rahab and her family in Jericho and the Moabite woman Ruth…they were not among Jehovahs chosen people,yet Jehova Himself took care of them..they even got the huge privilege to be part of the very spesial ancestor-line of Jesus the Christ.

              All humans are fish where ever they are..i am very glad that engels are those who is sorting out who is the good ones and who is the bad ones…we are not even able to know our selves …:-)

            • Joseph S.

              Jesus will pan ALL his precious golden nuggets out of this wicked world! Even us golden flakes!!
              https://youtu.be/UZsQVvZyE3A

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. Love this post!

            • Richard Long

              My dad actually took us on weekend trips into the Sierras to do this and more, like with powered dredges and sluices, when I was a kid. Never struck it rich, but boy we had an adventure!

            • Joseph S.

              Your dad sounds like fun! What a awesome adventure you guys must of had!!

            • Brian

              Indeed Arvid, and he will “make the stones cry out” if need be. Yes, the angels when they get to do the sorting is just as well, I wouldn’t/ couldn’t trust mankind to do it and neither does Jehovah obviously!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Brilliant point! Love it!

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Brian, you are probably right on that score, but what if some of these ‘beaten and tossed about’ Christians think Jesus is God.

            • Brian

              Part of the delusion Jamie and it is not difficult for some or even many to misunderstand Jesus position as he has had everything “handed over to him”, what is important to remember between Jehovah and whoever is “chosen” is that he and he alone for a reason definitely unbeknown to us he does the choosing, so in other words that someone/s that is/are in another “branch” of Christianity will be “awakened” at the right time to become one of these, what everyone seems to miss is that the criteria to be chosen is the fact that they have put their faith in Jesus, now how that is manifest in the person is what is up for conjecture by people looking on, but it is only people looking on when all need to be worried about God looking on..

            • Richard Long

              in other words, the WT org is currently just the most evolved, perhaps even most scripturally correct, smoothest talking MOL con man operating amongst a plethora of MOL con men.

            • Brian

              That possibly fits the bill quite well Richard although there are some pretty good silver tongues out there giving them some competition!

            • Francis Bencharles

              The Watchtower was the storage vessel of the Bride of Christ and continues to fulfill that purpose as the storage vessel of the remnant of that Bride still on earth. But the field where the seed was planted is the “world”, so if you are not a part of that Bride there is no need for you to become a JW. However, if their message strikes a cord in your heart you may be drawn there nontheless. But, since the planting of the seed was in the “world”, so the harvest will be.

              Just as Jesus could, the angels can read hearts and they can see what type of seed was planted and what type of seed if any has grown in hearts no matter where they are in the “world”. Hebrews 1:14 says very nicely

              14 “Are they not all spirits for holy service,*+ sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?

              There will not be any mistakes made. Wheat will be harvested, not any weeds, no matter what their pretenses might be. The angels will not make a mistake.

              This will be the “good news” that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:14 and these will be the ones perhaps including you and I that will “come out of the Great Tribulation”.

              I know JW’s think they are fulfilling that scripture, but isn’t the privilege of gathering the Bride of Christ enough of an honor?

            • Brian

              Francis, if indeed they were actually gathering the “bride of Christ”it may give them some validity, due to the falsehood of the “Kingdom has already arrived” and events that are said to follow such as the collection together of the bride of Christ this puts them in the position of actually usurping the Kingdoms authority to collect those together for the heavens and for the earth, all they are doing and have done in the past 80 years is collecting together those of the earth, no one has asked them to that and it is not even a scriptural command. “Go out and make disciples of people from all of the nations”, a disciple is a follower of Jesus for the purpose of Jehovah taking a people for his name namely spiritual Israel.
              If going by what Jesus states when he will turn up to inspect the congregations,”Then
              the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we
              see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?”
              This scripture is indicative of people that were just “feeding, clothing and giving a drink to Jesus brothers without the knowledge of doing so to a specific group of people, on the other hand JW’s say that they have all of the “anointed to be chosen” in the midst of them and by doing this are saying we are feeding said disciples which is 180′ counter to what the scriptures are saying!
              If we go back to the command to love God with your whole heart and you neighbour as yourself and apply this first and foremost to all that are professing to be Christians and feed them all as one you would then be seen to be not knowing that you have actually specifically fed, clothed watered his brothers, it is this simple but is lost on many people, so to sum this up you can’t have an exclusive group of people separate from the called until the tribulation/angels separates them out and that hasn’t happened as yet, well unless you believe the JW delusion that the Kingdom came some 103 years ago as we speak, OK 102 1/2 years!.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Common sense explanation. Got to read it a couple more times though as its so hard sometimes to reconfigure my “WT” brainwashed brain as they got to me first and pounded into my brain week in week out their way off the mark teachings. Aargh!

            • Brian

              Beverly, re read the scriptures that state this not so much what I have written and then apply what they say with some logical thinking, maybe Walla

            • Beverly kenyon

              I will do that Brian. Thanks. Can I just say, in no way am I brainwashed anymore by those ones and I wasn’t completely brainwashed anyway as I knew something wasn’t right with the whole thing, I was always unsettled and unansweredby some of their teachings but I used to make excuses for some of their’iffy’ teachings by saying to myself, I’ll leave that one for later and that takes me back to trying to ‘fit in’ as if I didn’t I was made to feel I was bad and spiritually ‘weak’! From that platform week in week out you were put down like you were never good enough a witness, and the person was to blame! Sack that! I wasn’t sticking around for that as I could get that any day of the week in the world and I wouldn’t have to willingly take that treatment! I just meant some of their wrong teachings still flash up in my mind, it’s like a form of spiritual PTSD!

            • L.H.

              Yes Beverely, it is spiritual PTSD because it is spiritual abuse!

            • Beverly kenyon

              I don’t take betrayal easy LH, so I’m still reeling from the things I’m finding out about my religion. They had something really special in what they preached way back at the early beginnings but the cult of personalities crept in i.e Rutherford and others and people creature worshipping such ones and to compound all that in came the MOL. Some of their actions are so beyond shameful but for me protecting paedophiles…can’t begin to tell you how that sickens me to my stomach, their affair with the UN and then to lie about it, beyond disgusting, mugging off struggling witnesses, shameful, but there’s a new one on my list I recently found out, the Swiss government in 2009 said, ones who suffered in the war, there was a fund ones could put put in a claim and guess what, the WT put in a claim but they were turned down. And that’s after Rutherford’s shameful letter to Hitler calling Jews and trying to cut a deal to save witnesses which reminded me of the WT and one of their reasons for being an NGO was that they could protect witnesses in war torn countries. Well, here’s me thinking that Jesus as our King was going to fight on our behalf! I’m over them but I’m horrified to see witnesses that I know revelling in the dross they’re being fed…if it wasn’t serious it would be laughable!

            • Richard Long

              Right you are, Beverly! And I am just NOT going to be able to go back until I am much, much more sure of my footing being firmly fixed in the truth. I imagine FS will be greatly simplified for me…. no clever overcoming of conversation stoppers… just “Hi, I’m Richard. Would you like to know the name of God? No? Well, have a wonderful day!” I will let them chase me down the sidewalk if they figure out they made a mistake​. I read somewhere that the single most effective pick-up line for both men and women is “Hi, what’s​ your name?”. I’m joking of course, but then I’m really not, as the WT has made us peddlers of God’s word. We have become the apparatus or “means of production” that processes resources (people) into cash for the WT lawyers​ and money changers. And I’ll be the poor weak brother in the back who doesn’t highlight his magazines.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Laughing at some of your points Richard…it’s funny. The bit about name and have a wonderful day and the pick up line! You can’t go around asking someone their name as you’d get called a few names yourself…that or you’d get head butted…at least where I live, lol. Their proper scallies! Apparently because early Christians were farm people living in the countryside, they just used to preach the news of the Kingdom as they went about their daily business…they just got on with it. No uniform, no approval from another human being, no buying a special bag, no formal meeting up in cars and areas they just did it and no doubt went home very satisfied that they were doing what they ought to be doing! I googled that one day just to find out how the ministry was done in the early days apart from what we read about how Jesus instituted the ministry and there wasn’t a highlighter pen to be seen. When i went back briefly last year to the KH I silently protested by NOT highlighting the study articles and I saw my friend giving my mags the once over with disapproving eyes and I knew exactly what she was thinking! Pathetic and picky….I couldn’t take anymore of that ridiculous, infantile, judgemental behaviour, it really was beginning to be hard going and that familiar feeling of feeling miserable was creeping in again! So those two grasses did me a favour and I was out of there! I used to try and engage with witnesses but I don’t even try now as its hard work talking to them with their closed minds and superior attitude. I’ll leave the talking to them to Jesus Christ the King as they really are a stiff necked people!

            • Richard Long

              Even when I was regular, I rarely highlighted, only maybe a key word or a scripture i liked, or pre-studied even, because I didn’t need to in order to meaningfully participate. Nobody ever called me on it though, because my comments reflected that I understood the material. It seemed like public education in the US – capped out at about a sixth grade level and back filled with trivia. This was the US public policy through to the 90’s as it was intent to produce mostly laborers and the cream that rose to the top were encouraged to become the higher educated overlords. Essentially, Empire gerrymandering at is finest, and fully imitated by the WT, which wants to get by with sending out automaton’s with a pre-programmed message. The underlying message is ” get them to the hall and we will complete the standardized programming here.” I hope you are seeing this Brian, because I would give 50 of the former “corn-fed” me for one inquiring and dogma challenging you.

            • L.H.

              The only way to bear this knowledge is to know the bible fortold this. But yes, it’s sad so many Witnesses don’t see it and apply all Jehovah’s judgments to christendom.
              Let’s pray for them Jehovah will give them discernment.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi LH, sorry for the late reply. It’s hard to pray for a bunch of people LH who love the status quo and who Jehovah himself says, my people love it that way.

            • L.H.

              You’re right. But I was thinking of the meek, still abused victims within, who don’t understand what is going on and blame their misery on themselves.( And don’t say sorry, we all are busy!)

            • Beverly kenyon

              Oh, I WILL pray for those ones LH. In my last congregation before I left, the congregation that was in involved in a child abuse scandal…New Moston congregation, a very cliquey congregation I saw some of them there bully and demean this elderly sister and all she wanted was a bit of attention as she was a very emotional and lonely sister, she even used to resort to putting blue lipstick on her lips so she looked ill and hoped they would visit her and feel sorry for her…I became friends with her and I learnt a lot from her as she was very spiritual but so lonely, I still think about her so yeah, you’re right there are abused ones! At the moment LH, I’m being very Jonah like as like Jonah, I would rather hurl myself in the deep ocean or slam my hands repeatedly in an iron door than talk to those people! Looks like I’m going to have to revisit the book of Jonah to pull myself up. Ages ago I kept getting the most strongest urge to read Jonah, a book that I wouldn’t kill myself to single out to read but that strong feeling never left me so I read that book and did some background research on it and felt Jehovah was reproving me about my attitude towards JW’s as they weren’t my favourite people at all so here I am with the same sort of attitude so it’s back to the drawing board for me learning the lessons from Jonah of forgiveness, love, repentance and obedience. Grrrr. ?

            • L.H.

              How sad about that sister. And good for you to make friends with her!
              Jonah was grumbling over non-worshipers of Jehovah while they were repentant and humble, while we are in a situation we meet haughtiness, and worse. So there is a difference.
              But we better prepare to forgive them if they become aware of what we know now and repent.
              This reminds me of James 2:13 ” For the one who does not practice mercy, will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy triupmhs over judgment.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I have never wanted to be pally with the prominent ones in that congregation, prominent ones are high maintenance and you have to feed their egos, hate fake, false and pious plastic ones and those ones in that congregation were puzzled why I was friends with Millie as they clearly did not think much of her by how she was treated by them…it was disgusting and I always made a point of going on the Ministry with her and going back to her little bungalow for something to eat and to chat and she used to tell me how things were back in the day as she was a witness for a long time. It was her that said, how she cast her vote for God’s Kingdom when she got baptised when she was asked is she voted for any political party and to this day I use that expression when I’m asked who I vote for. That was very insightful LH about Jonah…so many lessons are learnt from that little Book in the Bible. I’m all about love LH and not war and I hate conflict and disharmony but I don’t hesitate to stand up for myself and others even if I’m read wrong by whoever. Funny you should quote James as that has always been my favourite book in the Bible from when I first started seriously reading God’s Word!

            • L.H.

              Haha, pious plastic ones…I know what you mean.
              Beside the lowly ones and misleaded ones (who can be very annoing), there are satanic people within the congregations. You’d better stay away from them, and you’re right to stand up for yourself and others. (It’s a shame it is neccesary!)
              Don’t let them determine your faith, I dare to say that is what they are up to.
              In time Jehovah will reveal who they really are.John 10:8,10 ” All those who have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listen to them. 10) The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they may have life and have it in abundance”.
              Eph. 5:12 “Fot the things they do in secret are shamefull even to mention”.
              It’s not okay if they don’t want you to associate with a humble lonely sister. Awfull!! I think the older sincere ones must be really depressed with how jehovahs people become so loveless these days.
              Maybe jehovah is opening their eyes.
              We need discernment coming from him.

            • Beverly kenyon

              True LH. Brilliant scriptures you’ve quoted there. It was awful some of the things I saw. Yes, I agree with you about the older ones as they’ve seen seen changes in teachings, wonder how the overlapping generation nonsense went down with them, bet they needed a special interpreter to explain that one! That would be great if Jehovah is providing them with discernment and opening their eyes! That congregation was awful and lots left!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi L.H, recently you popped into my head and I realised you’ve stopped posting here on this blog. Hope you’re alright.

              At least you haven’t deleted your account and it’s still ‘live’ so you might pop back in. Miss you and your comments.

              Christian love L.H. X

            • L.H.

              Hi Beverly, thanks for your interest, how kind of you! I hope everything is O.K.!
              I was bothered by several things so I didn’t feel much like commenting I guess. But don’t worry, still cling to Jehovah and Jesus!
              Sometimes I’m in doubt to post or not, so I keep my account alive. Although it is hard to keep up with the comments, I try to read them.
              But by the time I sorted out the essence of what it is all about, what I probably wanted to say is been said by others, and brother King has put inplace the next article ! (And I,m a slow typer, remember? :-)))
              Or I conclude that we all ( in case of some topics) still reach in the dark unless Jehovah reveals something. So I better shut up then, to not look like WTS, and a stupid sheep !
              But who knows, In case I feel I have to say something meaningfull, I pop up!
              Again, thank you so much, and love to you too!!

            • Richard Long

              It doesn’t get better than a “hazy outline in a metal mirror” for anyone, L.H., but speaking up does help us to remember you in our thoughts and prayers more often! So very nice to “see” ya!

            • L.H.

              Thank you very much Richard. And I pray a lot for everyone who is searching for Jehovah!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi L.H, how really lovely to hear from you. Sorry for late reply but I’ve only just stopped! Today has been so hectic. You know how it is and here I am sloooowly typing you a reply. Lol. Like you I’m still ridiculously slow at typing! Ha!

              Awwww. That’s a shame you were bothered and I understand how you feel as I know you’re sensitive to other people’s feelings and you have a loving heart as that came through loud & clear in some of your posts. Try not to let things bother you as these things happen in this life and you have to brush it off and stick with your Faith in the Heavenly Father & his Son, your family and your true friends even if it’s just one loyal friend. It’s good to have that moral support.

              Don’t be daft! It doesn’t matter if you say something the same as someone else as I’m sure you will add a new dimension to that same thing. I always liked what you had to say as it was genuine and from your heart. I remember how guarded you were of your identity….to this day, I don’t know where you’re from and if you’re a man or a woman….and I used to think, how bad it is to be part of the WTS where you’re so scared to say who you are as that’s not right or loving! It’s all wrong!

              You are most certainly NOT a stupid sheep L.H as you’re much loved by the Father & his Son….read Arvid’s post from yesterday about the twins in the womb. Yeah, who knows, you might pop up with something great to say. Don’t put yourself down L.H as we get enough of that in the world.

              Once again, so lovely to hear from you L.H and I’m glad you’re still bobbing about and you’re safe and okay.

              Much Christian Love. X

            • L.H.

              Hi Beverly,thanks for taking he time out of your busy life to reply to me. And if it is as sloooowly as you claim, I have to thank you twice!!

              Don’t worry about things bothering me, thats part of this crazy life. And we have our Father and his Son to sustain us (but they don’t take away everything yet!)
              I don’t put myself down Beverly but we have our loads to carry and can get exhausted.

              Haha, I thought you were aware that I am a woman. I’m a wife and mother of two teens too!!
              And yes it IS BAD what is happening in te WTS, and I’m waiting for almost two decades now that Jehovah reveals what’s the nature of Evil going on there. Worse then what is known for now.
              I’ve done everything in my power to reveal whats going on, and to fight it, but Jehovah knows why it is still a secret. Its counteracted by Satan, i mean satan, why write his name with a capital letter. So i feel powerless and a lot of times it becomes a physical thing.
              But again, don’t worry Jehovah is EVERYWHERE and he is taking very good care of our family.
              Arvid really writes interesting and lovely posts. I think he is very much “in touch” with Jehovah and Jesus.With them all things are possible. With what we are now chained and restricted with we cannot even imagine the blessings to come to us when Jesus takes up his power.
              I really must study certain subjects to get a brighter insight in these things.

              For now take care Beverly! Don’t forget to take time for youself, to relax It will save you from serious health problems! X

            • Francis Bencharles

              You really only seem to be concerned with what you believe, so I won’t bore you with anything less harmonic with truth. How does Nirvana feel?

            • Brian

              I believe in what the scriptures state, what “truth” are you trying to convey here Francis? I believe from the scriptures that all who confess union with Christ are still in the running, this is scriptural no matter how poorly one thinks others are behaving, it is Jesus that will be doing the judging not men. There is also nowhere stated that there will be an exclusive group of “brothers” on the pre tribulation side as it is once again Jesus that sorts this out not men. When all of the one professing to be “virgins” come out when the cry comes and those that are not ready are rejected by Jesus and not before hand. It is presumptuous that any particular group has an exclusive hold over Jehovah’s chosen ones especially when Jesus hasn’t even arrived yet to inspect the “congregations” and the tribulation has not begun, in the Watchtowers “mind” it has arrived and therefore the collection has already happened, a bit of a “bummer” that it hasn’t happened for them but that is the way the apostasy is dealt with along the way, just imagine how it will be dealt with when Jesus actually does arrive and purge it.
              I think you comment on the “Nirvana” state is a little like the pot calling the kettle black Francis.

            • Brian

              I am unaware that Jesus and the angels can read hearts, I have always been of the understanding that it is Jehovah only that can read hearts. Can you please direct me to the scriptures that confirms that Jesus and the angels can also do this.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think that the issue of reading the intent, the underlying motive of the person as expressed by his words and actions is evident when it comes to Christ. I’m not saying it is exactly so as I do not know for certain. A couple of examples that might be worthy of consideration would be the thief being executed next to Christ who repented and the immediate answer given by Christ accepting his repentance and granting his reward. Another might be the Centurian asking Jesus to heal his servant, just by word alone. In both cases, It may have been Jehovah that allowed his power to move through Christ as a channel, but who did the requesting, and on what basis? Are we to say that Jesus had no insight into a person’s motive? He certainly appeared to when he spoke to pilot and his accusers. He gave the glory always to Jehovah, but he also said that the father was in him and he in the father. If he could not then read the motives of others, how could he make these recommendations for that power to heal to glow through him righteously. We’re this not the case, how could Jehovah approve? If Jesus could not rightly recommend, then surely It is untrue that he was a perfect man of his own accord and choice as was Adam. And that was the point of his sacrifice was it not?

              As for angels having the same insight, on each occasion of their intervention and especially on their planned intervention in the comming war, then it appears to me that these powers are given to them as you suggest, and are not an integral part of their powers. I think I am right in saying that biblcal manifestations of angels were always to provide a message, either physically or by projected thought, as with the donkey who spoke. Thus the insight was not theirs. They were carrying out an assignment and empowered to do so. Even Satan has to provide the means of temptation to do evil, and does not appear to have the ability to manipulate through mind control. If he could, why would they need to possess to control the body? Each person is drawn out by his own desire. Whether I am correct in my thinking is another matter. If it’s not plainly said in the scripture then it’s best to leave conjecture alone. The detail is interesting, but it’s not relevant to us at present.

            • Brian

              Hi Burt, very well put post although I am still not sure about Jesus and reading the heart, the criminal strung up next to him that recognised Jesus for who he was and recognised his punishment was due to his own failings so Jesus could see that he had faith in Jesus. Jesus did do a lot of praying to God so yes it could very well be Gods spirit being “channelled” through him to have insight into reading people, we had a similar ability to “read” people, I’d dare say though we are nowhere near as good at it as Jesus was..

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Brian, I think that reading the heart, or intent of a person in its true form as the bible suggests that it must be, is very much different from our own attempts to second guess and therefore judge by, the thoughts or actions of another. I feel that they are two different things. I cannot offer any biblical quote to justify that, though perhaps more learned ones could, or ones with better memory than I, but I draw the impression from the scriptures that true justice is exercised though Jehovah’s absolute knowledge of us. As it is, we are alive through his spirit and sustained by such, and created though Christ who was himself, created of Jehovah. If, as Huldah points out, some are given insight to the actions of others through their knowledge of humanity, or even by Holy Spirit, I would feel that such would be dispensed only in a sufficiency fit for the purpose or event, and not on an holistic basis that necessarily sees all things pertaining to that person. Were such to be the case, what would we do with such knowledge, given that we cannot control even ourselves?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Matthew 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth

            • Brian

              Indeed it has Kevin, it has been handed over to him to “repair” for the want of a better description, in this he may have been given the ability to read hearts but I was only saying that the scriptures don’t actually say that he is able to do so, to suggest otherwise is speculating on the scriptures, it doesn’t really matter whether he does or doesn’t as Jehovah definitely does and the hearts will be read at any rate..

            • Huldah

              Hi Burt

              Interesting thoughts on reading hearts.
              Luke 6:45
              New International Version
              A
              good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and
              an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
              For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

              Matthew 12:34
              You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.”

              Robert wrote about how it is that Jehovah can see so far into the future and know exactly how things will play out in the end. In a word, it is “knowledge”.

              He understands and knows everything. He can connect the unconnected realities of the nature of man and the world and weave them into a tapestry that presents the future, laid out at a time long before it can even be comprehended by anyone then living.

              Job 12:22
              “He reveals mysteries from the darkness And brings the deep darkness into light.”

              Jeremiah 16:17
              “For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.

              Jesus, the one through whom man was created, who was ‘especially fond us’ throughout all time, had learned the nature of man long before he came to earth. I’m sure it was a keen interest and study of his.

              He could read hearts because of his great knowledge of man. Of course, HS enhanced this insight.

              I have a feeling that many if not all angels have also engaged in this study since ‘we are a theatrical spectacle to both man and angels.’ (1Cor. 4:9)

              Interesting to note that Jehovah seems to have used the best of his angels to deal with man as with Micheal leading Israel in the wilderness and Gabriel speaking with Daniel. These ones were intimately acquainted with us.

              Strange we put so much trust in how much insight a measly psychologist, trained by faulty human schools, can see into our “souls” through his “special insight”, yet not angels or even men like Paul, trained by none other than God himself.

              The early apostles were called ‘the ones acting as a restraint’
              (2Thess. 2:7). It was explained in the WT that these ones did so due to their insight and understanding. They held back the apostasy because they could slice through Satan’s lies with their powerful knowledge and insight into the truth. It wasn’t just HSpirit that had magically enlightened them. They also had experiences and study to train their minds in the right direction.

              It wasn’t just HS that caused Paul to see through the ‘superfine apostles’, but his experiences of working, suffering and sacrificing side by side with Christ. He developed keen insight from study and experience. That insight was supported and strengthened by the spirit, but the foundation was laid by the earnest efforts of the man (Paul). Those efforts were rewarded.

              This brings me to the scriptures above. A person, a god, an angel who has put an earnest effort into understanding the mind of GOD and man, will be able to see the intentions of their hearts through their words and actions. We are not infallible, but our skills can be honed, and when they are, we can trust our instincts. The same way a good cop can sense danger and act to protect himself, instinct developed through experience and knowledge. I would say the good instincts of the angels and Christ are near infallible, their ability to dissect the things we say and do, profound.

              As far as Satan is concerned. He has a keen interest in studying man too. His motivation may even be stronger in some respects in that it is based on intense hatred and a desire for revenge. He can see much of what is in our hearts as we demonstrate that by our words and actions. He uses that knowledge to try to break our integrity. He can create a unique test for each of us based on his knowledge of us and He does. I can say from personal experience that he knows me very well, though I am always aware (even when I’m praying) that I make it easier for him when I say things out loud. Perhaps I’m paranoid, but I have really good reasons to be, based on experience.

              New Heart English Bible 1 Pet. 5:8
              Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary the devil, walks
              around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

              Luke 22:31
              Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat.

              My main motive is to point out the power of insight of both our friends and enemies in the spirit realm.

              As the scriptures below show, we don’t directly judge in the sense of condemning an individual.

              Luke 6:37
              Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven

              1 Cor 4:5
              Berean Study Bible
              Therefore
              judge nothing before the proper time; wait until the Lord comes. He
              will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the
              motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from

              God.

              We do, however, have tools at our disposal to strengthen our power of perception to prevent ourselves from being misled or falling prey to the increasing number of stumbling blocks that have established themselves in the congregations.

              Jude 1: 12

              New Heart English Bible
              “These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you,
              shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water,
              carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked
              up by the roots;”

              2Peter 2

              New Living Translation

              The Danger of False Teachers

              1Butthere were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false
              teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and
              even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring
              sudden destruction on themselves.

              2Manywill follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of
              these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered.

              3Intheir greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money.
              But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be
              delayed.

              vs. 14 They lure unstable people into sin.

              We won’t take the bait if we train ourselves to accurately interpret what comes out of their mouths, as it reveals the intentions of their hearts.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Isn’t it obvious that Jesus could read hearts? Do you actually need a scripture that says “and Jesus did this because he could read a persons heart”. Jesus could tell right away whether persons would show faith in him or not. Read the account where Jesus told his disciples that in order to gain life they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood. He already knew how they would react to that test before he even presented it to them. He knew who would continue following him and who would leave him behind. He also knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him and would not be faithful. John 6, give it a close read.

              As for the angels, it is the same. There is not a specific scripture that says “the angels can read what is in a persons heart.” Yet, Jehovah trusts them with the huge responsibility of harvesting the wheat of mankind. They know who have a wheat seed planted and who have weed seeds. They don’t have to wait till people mature to know. They also do not make mistakes in undertaking this task. They will make life and death decisions and will not get it wrong.

              Maybe you call it something different. I call it reading hearts. If you need another example read Acts 8 in it’s entirety where the angel directs Phillip where to go, who to talk to and what to say to them. If it’s not reading a faithful heart Brian, what do you call it?

              Frank

            • Brian

              Sorry Francis but it is not obvious that Jesus can read hearts, not to me anyway or maybe he can now but it doesn’t state it so I am not running with it. Jehovah reads the hearts of mankind this is for sure and if he directs an Angel or other to a”right hearted one” then they are being directed by him. Maybe Jesus did get this ability as he also received “life in himself” as part of “successful earthly sacrificial journey” and as all things have been given over to him it is certainly possible that he can, it’s just that it is not written.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Brilliantly put Brian…a plethora of MOL con men! Boom!

            • Richard Long

              Not arguing, just developing the idea you’ve expressed in my own terms. So, you’re thinking even the active trinitarians, or basically even most sects claiming Christianity, are experiencing their own version of the operation of error? For Jehovah’s purposes of having us show him who we want to be to him, it’s the “whatever delusion works” strategy?

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, this operation of error or delusion was mentioned way back with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians, it states that the man of lawlessness was at work even then and it talks of the restraint that was on it but that restraint would be gone at some point, some think it was the very last apostle and maybe it was but more importantly it was there then and has been all of the way down to today so effectively every Christian congregation brand on the planet is under the power of the apostasy/MOL and a delusion to some degree, it appears that it may have even started with denial of Jesus being “sacrificed” and moved on from there adding little gems along the way, it has been given plenty of time to be nurtured by Satan and Jehovah has obviously OK’d it just as he OK’d Satan to stick it to Job, I suppose we could see it as the sorter of people and trials of their ability to search out the truth and stick with it under the delusion, well that’s how I sort of see it.
              I think people get too carried away with organisations instead of looking at the people in general, yes the Trinitarians and all other “flavours” are under the delusion hence where their beliefs have come from so not a great deal different to what happened in Israel, in fact the same as it is Israel that is being chosen out of these. Sorry for rambling on a bit!

            • Richard Long

              “I suppose we could see it as the sorter of people and trials of their ability to search out the truth and stick with it under the delusion, well that’s how I sort of see it.”

              Asking for you opinion:

              So, once one has seen through the delusion, one is better positioned to seek, know, and stick with the truth? Is it better to be rid of the delusion earlier than later? Is more responsibility placed upon those awakening earlier than later?

              I don’t know your relationship with Robert, but have seen you disagree with each other on what will in the end likely turn out to points of prophecy, which I am a complete dolt regarding anyway. You seem to be working harder than most to drill down on the delusion, not on a mission to draw people away as others I have blocked are, but a mission to help anyone who will listen realize the true and total accumulative effect of the parousia delusion on all subsequent JW beliefs. This has been very helpful, a blessing in fact, to me in understanding my own “symptoms” of delusion and develop a filter, or criteria to re-examine the long held accepted on blind faith WT teachings. Thank you.

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, I would think like in any other scenario it is better to rid oneself of the delusion earlier rather than later. You are spot on that I am not trying to draw people to anywhere, well except to re examine the scriptures that have brought them to where they are today. It is a shame about the JW’s because they have a lot of very nice well meaning people amongst them (they have some snake as well) and they have the story of the Kingdom pretty well nailed although it is written in plain black and white for all to see, it is just in their self righteous pigheaded way have misused the scripture to manage in their own minds to become or put themselves in the place of something they are not ( of course this does implicate them in not actually doing what Jesus and Jehovah has asked). I never had a problem with the people in general, it was always scriptural and that’s what did it for me.
              Yes Richard, I have had some disagreements with Robert and yes they are mainly prophecy related but some have been about the anointed as well. I think the main thing is that we all know enough about the Kingdom and its structure and the commands that Jesus gave us to be all very close in mind in the more important issues that Jesus referred us to to deal with in relating to people and letting them know this knowledge and refer those interested to the scriptures..

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Brian , you seem to talk with well founded knowledge and have a certain confidence in what you say. Do you and the group you associate with have a web site?

              Don’t take offence, I see you in a similar vain as Francis, both of you really well versed and articulate in putting your points across.

              Daniel’s prophesies are sealed up at this time and therefore each one of us must resort to some speculation. I also believe what you said about the kingdoms to come in the time of the end will be easily recognisable and obviously related to Daniel’s and Revelations prophesies.

              I simply try to keep on the watch and attempt to recognise what is taking shape. I have a funny feeling that during the time of the end, events will still surprise and amaze us.

            • Burt Reynolds

              To be well versed? A parrot is well versed because it repeats what is said, with all due respect to everyone. You say we must resort to speculation. Do we? Or do we need to resort to truth, no matter how little that may be in comparison to what sounds knowledgable because there is a lot of speculation in it? This is different from, for instance, considering the enormity of creation in wonderment…how did he do that…down to the living, breathing miniaturisation of a flea that can jump 60 times its own hight? The watchtower has speculated; it has said this and that, and drawn millions away with the lie, but are those that have faithfully believed the lie, and those that have been mislead, and promulgated the lie, with as much genuine love as they possess any safer for being taken in by this speculation?

              What more do we need than what we already have? Faith, hope, signs, love….the example of the fig tree? The bible promises meat in due season and it will come only when we have eyes to see it and are able to digest it. That is why the scrolls are sealed until the appointed time. As you rightly say. It’s not for me to say or advise, but just be careful. We all have to drink at our own well but does it benefit ourselves to search for more before we can assimilate and refine over that which we are already have? This is what makes this site unique, churning out the same message, the same truths, with consistency that withstands the test of inspection. It does not seek to interpret or add meaning, but to explain. These are subtle differences, but explanation is not speculation. One cannot do the same with speculation. It can neither be proved or disproved, but it can, it does and sadly it will continue to lead people away. I know I sound like a pompous git for saying so, but I trust in our relationship enough to know that you know, what I mean and why I say so.

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’re gonna be sent straight to the pompous table for being a pompous git Burt! Lol.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Don’t I know it. I’ve already been sent to the ‘haughty’ chair, or is it stair now. Anyway, I’m there.

            • Brian

              Hi Jamie I hope that you are well. I don’t have a web site and nor do I have or am I associated with a group as such that has one, I am more of a “lone” learner but I do have discussions with some others but not a formal group. I don’t want to be a “Life of Brian” character as I am only interested in knowing the truth and helping when I think I have “got it”, if I don’t come up to speed like others “he” will probably just hit me on the head with a mallet! : )

            • Beverly kenyon

              Brian, I can’t see you as a ‘naughty boy’! Will you ‘welease woger! That’s one of the best line in that film! Lol.

            • Richard Long

              We are next faced with the challenge of getting the meaning of the prophecies foretelling Jehovah’s actions toward “his people”. In the type, Jehovah foretold events generations in advance. Should we not expect that to be true in the antitype also. By placing the definitive identification of “Jehovah’s People” into the time period of the actual parousia, aren’t you then pushing the parousia generations yet further into the future from now, perpetually. I think if we spend all our focus on Daniel and Revelation (the WHEN), we lose sight of the rest. I thank you for your help in grappling with the truly profound and insideous penetration of the false parousia delusion into my (JW) thinking. Beyond that, it seems there is a great volume of scripture you are not interested in considering. I really must insist that you read Robert’s book, for no other reason than you love us enough to understand our thinking before you try to correct it. The prophecies are speaking about SOME people, the antitypical Israel, who Jehovah himself identifies as a “nation” of his personal possession, that would be operating as a unit with a corrupt leadership for generations in advance of his judgements. My personal view that JW are that miserable and apostate people aside, you are possibly now in the precarious position of announcing a soon to arrive parousia generations before it can arrive. Robert has stated his annointing coincided with his burning desire to reconsider the Hebrew prophecies and the resulting body of work very solidly establishes that IF the parousia is a soon to occur event, amongst the world’s “faithful”” only JWs can fit the sum total profile of the antitypical Israel. However screwed up we are, however presumptuous we are, however apostate we have become, individual JW’s are, to varying extent, TRYING to perceive the will of Jehovah and do it. That they have been decieved and deluded is all the more evidence of prophecy, is it not. Our original interactions began on this very point. If I accept your position that JW’s never were and are not the embodiment of the antitypical Israel. WHO do you imagine fulfills, or will fulfill, these prophecies? The reason DA and others is resisting you so strongly is not emotionally motivated, but rather logically so. Persuaded​ by the scriptures as we are that an antitypical Israel would factor into the parousia, we are interested in association with them. So I need you to tell me what you think I should know, but please stop telling DA he doesn’t know what he does know. When you have given Robert’s book the same honest consideration you would give any other extrascriptural material, we will be at a place where we can explore the body of evidence further together. Personally, I care not whether the parousia is sooner or later, I am at the point of merely trying to understand God and perceive what his will is, the basics. Someone once said the two most important days in one’s life are the day they are born and the day they understand WHY they are born. Having never been completely sure of the latter, only shoehorning my own desires and expectations into some functional semblance of a sense of purpose, I am now only accepting concrete factual input, and questioning that, too, as it is received.

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, I don’t believe that waiting for the revealing of “Gods people” in the “parousia” is somehow putting off into the distant future in perpetuity the actual revealing. As far as Jehovah’s People, well lets look at who or what they are, they are a people that Jehovah will take for his own possession, the very same people that he originally took and named Israel, we know that when Jesus was anointed and died he caused gift offering and sacrifice to cease and by doing so transferred the nation of Israel into the spiritual Israel, I am sure you are aware of all of this, after this as the Kingdom message went out there was an in gathering of potential “sons of God” and after this there was a Satanic influence that came upon the congregations to the point that there was various forms of apostasy that came upon the congregations, now Jesus stated that this very same apostasy would be with all of those in way shape or another all of the way until the revealing by Jesus when he arrives in the Kingdom to gather all of those that are chosen by Jehovah, obviously some congregations do better than some others at feeding Jesus brothers and conducting themselves in a way conducive for a good appraisal in “multiplying the talents” that they were given and then are given recognition for the work that they have done and not before the parousia, you could argue till the cows come home about who is the best congregation before Jesus appoints his belongings to the faithful and discrete slave, you can say that JW’s are right or not that is a personal choice that people make with whatever bible knowledge that they have that is entirely up to themselves.
              I am not stuck in Daniel and Revelation but they are very handy for me to sort the bullshit that some people espouse in relation to fitting themselves into time slots where they have no right being.
              I have read a lot of Roberts writings here and they are pretty good but I think Robert still has a lot of “1914” hidden in his thoughts that carry through in some of the writings, this is not to be unexpected as it is difficult to shake off some things.
              I still don’t see how people can see a “Gods people” when they are spiritual Israel and they haven’t been “gathered together” as yet, anything that says they are is as you say speculation at this point in time. That’s all I can say so I will leave it at that.

            • Huldah

              Hey Bev (Can I call ya Bev? Or do you hate that the way Robert hates Bob ?) I’m relieved someone else is using MOL, Lol.

              Funny how we think alike. I don’t like to capitalize elder or gb, don’t even like to call certain brothers, Brother….. I often call them by their first name. Just thinking it shows how this website draws people who have a strong aversion to untruth.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hi Huldah, Bev, Beverly, it doesn’t bother me either way! Basa thinks I’m a man called Beverly! That makes me laugh. I’m watching Egyptian Vice on the documentary channel. Wow, those Egyptians invented sin cities with every vice imaginable…booze, sex, murder, orgies, incest and rock & roll…they were big into the blue lotus flower which was like viagra! There really is nothing new under the sun as written in the scriptures! The Egyptians were hardcore! Sorry for boring you with that Huldah. Yeah, this website is a real spiritual lifesaver full of Bible truths and I really appreciate all of Brother King’s insightful articles. I’m freelance in that I shop around and visit other sites like Perimeno….love what Brother Perimeno writes, Baruq where I’ve learned a lot and I sometimes visit Timothy Kline’s site also as I like some of what he has to say which is interesting. I like to learn from spiritually clever ones. Recently I learned something from you which I kept thinking about. You said that you can clearly see a person who after years of being a witness if they are awful whose side they’re on….or words to that effect. I’ve tried finding your exact words on disqus profile but it’s taking forever to load! I have bad internet signal where I live…its bobbins! I also find your user name interesting!

            • Huldah

              Hi Bev
              On Huldah…I have quite a few reasons I like it, but just think how uniquely spiritual a woman would have to be to be used to prophecy to Kings and priests. All those men in Israel and he used a woman.

              As far as the brothers go…
              Its okay to start off in the truth with really bad characteristics, but if we continue in them or get worse over time can we really acuse Christ of being a bad teacher? Aren’t we just stubborn or lazy students?
              There are only two schools. Christ’s and Satan’s.
              From what I’ve seen, we can learn from either school right inside the congregation.

              Pupils of Satan learn….
              Arrogance
              Pride
              To emphasize titles, achievements
              Criticism
              Materialism
              Self indulgence
              Excuse making

              Pupils of Christ learn…
              Humility
              Modesty
              To put others first
              Simple eye
              A sense of responsibility
              Self sacrifice
              Graciousness

              Of course if someone hasnt been in school long you can’t expect him to have learned much but if he or she is claiming to be a teacher or to have some authority over others he ought to be demonstrating the fruits of a long study under Christ.
              Maybe thats what Jesus was saying in Mat. 7

              15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets+ who come to you in sheep’s covering,+ but inside they are ravenous wolves.+ 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?+ 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.+ 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.+ 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.+ 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.+

              T

            • Beverly kenyon

              Mmmm…I like that short study Huldah and that scripture neatly underlines your point. Yeah, I love how how Jehovah doesn’t discriminate against someone’s gender. He chooses the right person to get the job done. I assume back in those times it was male dominated so it’s interesting that a King, a high priest and a scribe consulted her to be able to communicate with God on the matter so she must’ve had a very close special relationship with God as he spoke to her.

            • Richard Long

              As a father of daughters, I have become acutely aware the injustice, or imbalance if we want to be kind, of the patriarchal system both outside and inside the congregations I despair as I contemplate the life my girls may lead contrasted to that which my children would lead had they been sons. I know Jehovah will give us balance on this in the future, but for now I and their mother just try to show them the world as it is, help them imagine it as it could be, and encourage them to really consider and decide for themselves what place they want to take in it. And yes, WT, I am encouraging their higher education. I imagine the self-submission of an empowered woman to be as pleasing to Jehovah as that of a dependent one, maybe more so. Isn’t that true with men – that the more empowered the man, the more glory to Jehovah when he submits his will to his maker?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Dead right you and you wife should encourage your daughters higher education. Like Basa says, knowledge is better than ignorance or something like that. And it’s true! Your daughters should be encouraged and supported in realising their full potential! How inappropriate to tell parents what to do with their own children’s education. All their legal team and the writing teams and the trusting witnesses they used as unpaid labour to build their luxurious complex by the lake, how do they think those professional people acquired the skill and knowledge to achieve those things they’re benefitting from….yeah, they all went to college and university! So yeah, they’re very cheeky dictating to parents about their children’s education! Really cheeky!

            • sally

              I feel I have to comment on this one. One of the things I noticed when I started studying and going to the hall, was the amount of men (in their mid 20s) who literally work in lowly paid jobs in grocery stores, some part time, and all living at home with mum and dad. There is a generation on them at our hall. They can never move out or get married and be independant. But the older generation seems to be very well off for the most part. They certainly have had their own lives, wives, kids, houses etc. And they have got careers. Its like the younger generation have been warned off pursuing any sort of independence altogether.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hiya Sally, wow, it was only the other day I was thinking of you and wondering where you’d got to do it’s great to hear from you. They’ve always promoted that idea, but it looks like it’s been geared up a notch. These young ones look like they’ve been ‘hamstrung’ socially and economically by being brain washed into not pursuing education and careers which in turn will lead to them always being at the bottom of the economic social ladder and that has a knock on effect creating other emotional problems and still the WT will come with their begging bowls to these ones eking out a pittance! These young men will be a drain on their families and society and how on earth will they have families of their own and if they did have a family eventually how will they support that family on a part time minimum wage! The WT is dooming these young men to a life of poverty and depriving them of a human right to have the choice of having a Family of their own. Cruel and hateful! They’re emasculating these young men!

            • Richard Long

              Not to mention keeping our young women subjugated and dependent upon the patriarchal system. Being a man and knowing plenty of others, and issues of VOLUNTARY submission to “headship” aside, I can not in good conscience counsel my daughters to accept anything less than an equal partnership in marriage, the one thing they actually do have the final say in.

            • Beverly kenyon

              And I agree with you absolutely and it,is the loving and sensible thing to do for your daughters Richard! Your girls are very fortunate having good parents and yeah, marriage is an equal partnership and in my view it’s a very needy woman who relinquish total control over to her spouse as that can lead to loads more problems. And it’s got to be a reassuring thing for a woman to know she’s financially independent and could step in should the family fall on hard times or there’s a death and she’s left with children to support, anything could happen. And a woman or man can only achieve such a thing with a good education and especially they have a good brain on them or they have a talent or interest in a certain field i.e, medicine, law, art, science and or learning a skilled trade, no woman or girl should be held back as girls have infiltrated a ‘man’s world’ regarding careers. Even in Jesus’ days there were financially independent, influential women using their cash and labour to help support Jesus on his ministry. Luke 8:1-3. Having their own money made them independent enough to travel and prepare things for Jesus in advance and there was Lydia, a seller of purple with her own business a skill she would’ve had to learn to be able to support herself and any dependants. Acts 16:14.

            • Richard Long

              It could be and previously has been argued that the WT system merely mirrors the Empirical British system of extracting resources and converting them to cash, bypassing the process of creating anything of intrinsic value.

            • Joseph S.

              I almost got snatched in that trap, in fact a lot of my family members did and are still struggling to this day. I took another path and learned a trade, became a Master Electrician at 22 & started my own company at 23. The good news is I have been able to help the ones that got caught up in that minimal employment. Thank you Jehovah ❤

            • L.H.

              Be carefull of Bethel will buying you out!

            • Joseph S.

              So true, they tried on several occasions, I just tell them “I’m a busy skilled trade “now. No more free labor knowing what I know and seen!

            • L.H.

              And I thought I was only joking

            • Joseph S.

              Ohhhhh no, your sought after if you’re a licensed skilled trade.

            • L.H.

              Now I understand why you change your username and avatar now and then. Joseph of Arematea sounds very innocent!
              But you woke up very early and apperently Jehovah learned you to provide benefit to yourself.
              And be garanteed Jehovah is seeing the bothering of is people! His anger will be meted out perfectly!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I wonder why they didn’t call on me being a social worker in child protection….i would have happily put them inside for free for a good loooooooong stretch. You could have fixed up the electric chair.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. ??

            • Joseph S.

              “All aboard ”

              https://youtu.be/7vggK0nPBCA

            • Beverly kenyon

              Why am I not surprised at those figures…money and the 1% talks in this unequal world.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Good for you ‘Sparks’. This house I’ve bought has an electrical anomily. When I turn on the light in the sitting room, the light in the hall goes off and vice-versa. ☹️

            • Joseph S.

              In the trade we call that ghosts!

            • Jamie Mac

              For the layman, it’s called annoying 🙂

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Master Electrician 🙂 as this is the current subject, do you think we will have electricity in the new world.

            • Joseph S.

              I think so, some type of clean energy. To run my air conditioning!!!

            • Jamie Mac

              How will we get around? On horseback, I hope not as I am afraid of heights 🙂

              Maybe the clean energy will be solar based. How will we communicate with our extended family on the other side of the world.

            • Joseph S.

              The new system will be full of endless possibilities!
              We won’t even miss this old system………

              https://youtu.be/oFtq8qwZbsI

            • Jamie Mac

              Food wise, I’m gunna miss Marmite.

            • Thinking

              We will all meet up at one point on the earth..be taught..by the princes..clean up..
              .and spread out…now that’s just a personal thought of mine …but recently I found out it is also what Russel taught….aaaah to know of these things..soon hey 🙂

            • Jamie Mac

              True thinking, even central Aussie will be transformed. There will be oceans of space

            • Burt Reynolds

              The most abundant source of energy is hydrogen , and the cleanest method of producing it I understand, is atomic fusion, as opposed to what we do now, which it the dangerous opposite. But there is so much science we don’t know yet, that it’s almost without doubt that it will be free, easy….magnificently easy…and clean. And if we will be living for eternity, what’s wrong with walking to see your family in the Antipodes…..’see you in a hundred and twenty years George, I’m just off to visit aunt Agatha in Oz.’ But then, telepathy would be easier, natural and clean and feasible…there are instances that we just ‘know’ what the other is thinking, or if they suddenly meet fate. I suppose that there is little doubt we will have these questions answered, but it will be ‘…..life Jim, but not as we know it….’ See….even startrek knew all those years ago…

            • Brian

              Hi Jamie, I have often though about this very thing and as time has rolled on for me and thinking more upon the scriptures and what seems to be the grand plan I don’t think anything from this “system” will be a part of the earth under the Kingdom, maybe the things that are governed by physics as we know it which is created by Jehovah in any rate will probably still remain. Those things that are not such as commerce, political leadership, obviously “religions belief” and anything involved with how we live in this world now I don’t imagine will be still around.
              I made a post to Kevin (Brooklyn) a week or so ago suggesting that Babylon the great may not simply be singly “false religion” but represents the whole world civilisation structure, so if it is this and it is destroyed just before Armageddon it could very well be the destruction and finish of everything in this system that we know of, I hope I relayed that so it makes some sense!! : )
              Babylon: “The cradle of civilisation”.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Brilliant pun…..’current’ subject……electricity in the new world. Clearly on top form…

            • Jamie Mac

              Only you would notice that Mr Burt 🙂

            • Richard Long

              The question is not whether we will have electricity, as it has always and will always exist as a natural force holding atoms together. The questions are more will we have access and permission to use he technology required to harness it. Tesla’s work, among other things yielded apparatus’ capable of, once in motion, generating far more energy than required to keep it in motion and these techs are reemerging to the extent they can escape suppression by the empire. The caveat is they require parts made of processed metals and precision machining, which is a messy business.

              See http://www.thrivemovement.com/ for an idea of what kinds of sustainable energies the earth already provides the secular humanists imagine they could harness if the empire would get out of the way.

              My best speculative scenario is perhaps we are trusted and trained to manipulate holy spirit in the way Jesus did while human. Who needs a car when one can teleport and who needs A/C when one can manipulate the weather?. Plus, and I know this is out there, but there is a vast universe that MUST exist for more purpose than just fascinating we dust specks on this planet .

              One thing I am absolutely convinced of: The Bible tells us everything we need to know in order to gain salvation, but it DOES NOT tell us everything there is to know! Paradise is going to be a never-ending pleasure cruise of intellectual stimulation and spiritual awakening and I can’t wait to set sail with all of you!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Ones like Nikola Tesla the electrical inventor will be resurrected and can you imagine what ones like him and the other famous inventors of past history will be coming up with using full 100% brain power! Don’t they say we only use 7% of our brains and a genius uses 10% and some say, 10% and a genius 12% but either way working on 100% brain power the possibilities are endless for how we will be living and everything will be done with Satan and his pals out the way as with him being the the Ruler of this World his negativety permeates every nook and cranny of Society we will be able to pursue all those exciting things and time will be on our side as we won’t be under a limited time span. Look at the things we’ve already done with our 10%/12% brain power and there will be a building work as spoken of in Isaiah 65:21 and we will have the energy to accomplish such things as our flesh will be fresher than in youth. Job33:25. Jehovah says, Look I am making ALL things NEW as New Jehrsalem is coming DOWN out of Heaven and God’s Tent is with Mankind so it’s new beginnings of everything exciting to come as when Jehovah gives he gives in abundance, he’s very generous to his children. When Jesus fed the 5 thousand and more look how there was loads of that food left over and when Jesus provided the wine at that wedding party it was the Best wine there was not some cheap plonk so that’s a glimpse of how the Jehovah and the King, Jesus Christ will be providing, nothing cheap and nasty for his people and no chasing the ‘mighty’ dollar, they’ll be no money as it really is the root of all evil as people will kill and do all sorts of harm to acquire money as in Satan’s world is does make the world go round as the song goes! And no more 1% and the rest of us 99%, no more of that inequality!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes the water into wine was a good example. Some of us still try to do that with sainsburys Californian Merlot today. Mind you, it’s easy to turn asda’s austrailan red into petrol….just pour it straight into your tank.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Is it because it tastes like Petrol Burt? Some of their wine isn’t that bad and I love their vintage champers…it’s lovely. Showed this post of your’s to my colleague tonight and he burst out laughing!

            • Joseph S.

              Love this post!!!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Ahhhh…I get that Joseph…lol.

            • Jamie Mac

              Beverly, You have a pretty logical brain already by reading your comments. Just imagine yourself 80% cleverer. You’ll make Einstein look like an infant 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Jamie, I’m only 7 or 10% clever or some might say, thick! Lol. But I look forward to using my grey matter on full power!

            • Jamie Mac

              You will be awesome Mrs Kenyon and more importantly you will have Jehovah’s blessing.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Thank you Jamie, you’re very kind to say that. I’m a Miss or Ms btw. Lol.

            • Jamie Mac

              At least I got the gender correct unlike poor old Basa 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Burst out laughing at that Jamie! Mega lol. So funny! Don’t know why he thinks I’m a bloke! I know my name is the male spelling. BeverlEy with an E is the female spelling so that might be why he thinks I’m a bloke but I’ve got to say it never fails to make me laugh.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hi Beverly..very nice comment…it is a good thing to look forward and ponder ore try to imagine how things will be in the future when Jehovah really start to pour out of His spirit….If you like to..check out the Mandelbot set and fractals ..ore the fibonachicode…and get amazed about the beauty of mathematics and its infinity…all creation made by our migthy Fater and grand Creator,got his fantastic “fingerprint” of beautyful matemathic ..absolutley everything is in wonderful mathematical harmony 🙂

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Arvid, you have a wonderful gift yourself, just in the way you express yourself in your comments. Always informative and uplifting. 🙂

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Thank you Jamie,i love your spirit too..you are always friendly and god hearted…we all must continue this way…try our very best to reflect Jesus way of living…i feel we are “drinking” very fine “Wine” in these days…Hmmm…who brought the best wine in the end of the wedding”…(weddings last for days at that time)…:-)

            • Beverly kenyon

              Sorry Arvid, I’m hopeless at maths and just reading those scientific words you’ve mentioned makes my head hurt! Lol. But I can see how ordered everything is in space and like you say in mathematical harmony and the absolute beauty of it all but I do know man was made for our Jewel of a planet and there’s lots in our planet that we’ve yet to discover and experience and that’s not even mentioning the Seas and Oceans. There’s places on earth that are truly heaven on earth. Also, yes, going into space and having that ‘bird’s eye’ view is mind boggling but why do astronauts can’t wait to get back to Earth as that’s what most of them say, they just want to get home to Earth. But maybe way in the future we won’t be restricted to being only on Earth and we will have the means and freedom to go beyond. The possibilities are endless when you really think about it.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, do want to have a laugh? Well, I’m the person who couldn’t tell the time properly until I was at least 14 or 15years old…I just couldn’t get my head round the concept and I also thought, the Sun changed into the Moon and vice verse so it was a bit of shock when I found out they were separate. Still don’t know if they’re stars or planets?! Duh!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              You like a good laugh…so do i 🙂
              But i wont laugh of you…much rather laugh with you 🙂
              To be honest..you did put a big smile on my face…you know why?
              Because i really like people who are able to laugh about themselves and not taking themselves too serious…you got that…its a gift..in fact..it sure make you strong…hold on to it 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Thank you Arvid and no, I do not take myself seriously as I’m just a regular everyday person….a proper Amhaaret!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Also like that point about the vast universe having purpose for more than entertaining. Us dust spect son this planet…fantastic point! I think we’ll be concentrating on our spirituality as scrolls are going to be opened, Rev20:12 and maybe that might have something to do with spirituality and being taught. But I think after the thousand year rule and after Satan is let loose once again, I think after that event that’s when we might have the ability to explore the vast universe safely and quickly!

            • Max

              I have always thought that being humanity the crown of earthly
              creation by God we as spicy have the given power to subjugate the
              whole universe. When we are finally perfect humans after the 1000
              years probation period. I’m sure Jehovah might allow the humans to
              reach to other planets and galaxies so the whole universe will be
              populated by what we will all be called then “the sons of God”.
              By then the sons of God will not be just the angels but us too. And
              how beautiful that sounds to be finally be called sons and daughters
              of the True God Jehovah The Almighty.

            • Jamie Mac

              Just imagine Max, taking a close up of all the planets in our own Solar System first. I hope Jehovah explains to us the forces that are in operation to keep all of them in motion. I know we have been told by the so called clever people how all of it works but there is a load of stuff we don’t know yet.

            • Max

              That will be so wonderful!! I can’t
              wait to be there!

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’re right Max, Jehovah might allow us to go exploring space and beyond and it really will be a beautiful thing to finally to be called Sons and Daughters of the True, God, Jehovah the Amighty and it will have a lot of meaning for me as he’s the only real father I’ve ever had!

            • Max

              But just as it was written:”Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” ( 1 Corinthians 2:9 )

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s brilliant Max! Jehovah has lots prepared for us that we can’t even begin to imagine about. Love that scripture as it ties in very well with what we’ve been talking about. That one is going in my notebook for future reference.

            • Max

              You know this scripture brings
              sometimes tears to my ayes. Specially the part “neither have there
              been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared
              for those who love him” That piece right there is so deep… Even
              with all mankind’s aspirations knowledge and hopes even then there
              have not been conceived in our hearts the things Jehovah has prepared
              for us all. I mean how wonderful those things then really are? That
              they have not been even been conceive in our hearts yet…

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow, Max, I love how you explain it like that. So beautiful. We can’t even begin to imagine the things Jehovah has prepared for us, we can’t conceive of it. And I’m so happy Max to read of your deep love for God’s Word as that shines through in this post of your’s. I think when a person feels like that when reading scripture, I think when you feel deeply emotional, deep to the core of your soul, I think a person gets filled with HS.

            • Jamie Mac

              Nice reply Richard, not sure about the teleport remark for us that are confined to the earth. Maybe, one of the 144,000 can come down and visit ;-).

              As Joseph pointed out, there are endless possibilities, so you never know.

            • Richard Long

              I’m not taking a stand on teleportation either, as it seems a feature of the supernatural world, and I expect humans to be limited to the proper exploitation of all the natural world has to offer, which, as both Joseph and Beverly pointed out, is still unimaginatively vast and untapped. We see evidence in ancient ruins of holes bored through 6 feet thick stone with laser precision and hewn stones equaling the weight of 5 “Titanic” sized vessels placed at elevation and fitted to those abutting them. So I an open to all possibilities, while also strenuously trying not to be distracted by them, as the monumental task at hand presently seems to be perfecting our love for Jehovah, as our loyalty to His son and his brothers will be our ultimate test.

            • Jamie Mac

              Absolutely correct Richard. Still I suppose there is no harm in day dreaming about these things. Much better than contemplating the next turgid day that is on offer in this current system

            • Richard Long

              So true!

            • Max

              Researchers in the Netherlands have just demonstrated that the quantum teleportation of information is now possible. For now, researchers are only quantum teleporting information a distance of ten feet, but conceivably, it means that larger objects can be transported even longer distances. In fact, says one of the lead researchers, there’s nothing in the laws of physics that prevents humans from being teleported at some point in the future. The Washington Post

            • Arvid Fløysand

              I belive the 144 000 will visit…remember “Jacobs ladder”…the whole idea is about connecting heaven and earth …to restore the original natural bond ..Thats why Jehovahs “tent” is coming down on earth…He will unite everything..the Kingdom on earth like in heaven…the best gouvernment ever will for sure gouvern in the spirit of Jehovah,jus like Jesus did …He is the same as always…very likable,kind,mild…just a fantasic person to be around…and when there is 144 000 more of that kind..all with different bacground to make them able to understand absolutley every single human in all history of mankind…WOW…thats how much Jehovah really care about all of us..putting this marwelous gouvernment together …i belive we vill see them a lot..like Jehovah many times have sent engels on visit in human bodys to even share a delicious meal…This wont be kings acting like the kings of this evil world…they will act like Jesus..like the best friends you ever could dream of …and some day we will know them all like best buddies in pure clean harmony and equal respect…and Jehova longing for this time when we really feel that He is our loving caring father,and we is the long lost sons and daugthers finally coming home again where we feel that we belong…we are on our way home and have been so for a long time…it is paradise earth for many and heaven for some…but both are ONE Kindom…let Your Kingdom come on earth like in heaven…unite us Father

            • Jamie Mac

              Wow, you’ve got my imagination running wild with that comment and I don’t want to come back down to earth just yet.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Do you feel the joy?and the freedom?…we have been prisoners…who let us out?remember who to thank ..Jesus and Jehovah are their names…they know all those who will inherit the wonderful FREE kingdom in heaven and earth..they are waiting for us all…almost everything is ready…lets run for it 🙂

            • Max

              Let’s run for it indeed!!!

            • Max

              Amen Amen and Amen brother.

              How beautiful that will be. That was a
              great comment you made!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Amen.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think the diktat on higher education is based on fear and always has been. The education standards at the time of inception of the watchtower was very low, both in America and England. The west of America was still being settled and what schools there were, were generic in basics. In the NE of America of course, they had universities, same as in London…..well, we of course had them back in the 1400s. Thus the academic skill sets were lower and more practical to suite the environment. As you can see from the early governing body, they were educated and powerful in the greater part, connected, monied and business minded. Of course, you don’t want theocratic upstarts challenging the management, and of course, the prime example in crushing discent was Rutherford….and that discent was of quite theocratic issues. Thus the split. From there came control and the moulding of the message to the will of the hierarchy with ‘flexible’ manipulation of the truth. The end result of which we have now. I generalise of course but the technique is well founded. From there on, the truth was not shared equally, and became owned, and the congregations, the hire-purchasers, always in debt to the governing body, never owning the truth and always in debt. I was part of that for twenty three years, and still feel robbed of my life over those years but it has been made up to me, almost Job-like! But I can understand why the abused and cheated feel they way they do and we can see more clearly that with the decline of the watchtower now evident, how much more so will brother be able to give up brother, thinking they act righteously. Truely, I don’t think the governing body have anything like an understanding of the venom that is piling up against them. It reminds me of the hierarchy of Jews being used to govern the Jews in the nazi ghettos, unaware that when they had disposed of their fellow men, they themselves were to get on the train to the death camp.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Love this post of your’s Burt. Brilliant points you’ve brought out and you yourself have form in putting Kindom interests first, living in a caravan with no toilet like you’re a traveller whilst being treated like pooh by your elders and the like and they’re camped out in their cosy semi-detached houses living the ‘dream’! And all of us here have read the high price you and children paid…the aftermath! So it’s good to hear you say you’re a survivor from that experience and it’s been made up to you almost Job like…so happy to hear that!

            • Brian

              That has happened a long time ago here in OZ, 30 or 40 years ago their mantra was don’t get educated you won’t need it in the new system, Jehovah doesn’t want thinkers he wants followers! I was well trained in automotive and mechanical engineering well before I was ever involved with JW’s. Of course if someone is truly on the little path in their hearts I don’t suppose there is any need for a great deal in this life, it is after all “chasing after the wind” and vanity!

            • Brian

              I might add that seeing as how all of what the JW’s have said post 1914 1919 in relation to that period and specifically regarding their position in the scheme of things related to it also is rubbish. I know every JW still goes on about Christendom but they never were judged by God in 1919 and have have not been right up to this day as yet so all of them no matter what anybody thinks of everybody else are still representing Jesus and God in various ways right up until Jesus comes to judge them just like how JW’s think he came and judged them in 1919, you see they do have the sequences correct but the timing is wrong and this probably isn’t so bad except when you apply an exclusive position to yourself and you find yourself to be wrong.
              Q, When have you ever said or attempted to discuss anything scripturally in the congregation that runs contrary to the Watchtower mantra and haven’t been accused of being an Apostate??

            • A: just less then a week ago and several times before that. they listened. sometimes they dont.
              but being branded apostate like Jesus means im doing something right. we must follow Jeramiah’s example dont you think?

            • Brian

              Indeed DA, now what was it that Jeremiah was saying as mentioned in Romans; “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?
              And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.”

              Jeremiah though he was the only one doing the will of Jehovah at that time.

              Being branded as an apostate in the congregation comes with ramifications, I’m sure Robert knows all about it also. As far as me associating with X JW’s, these are not the rabid variety commonly associated with X JW’s that have gone back to other groups amongst “Christendom”.

            • i wasnt talking about Elijah.
              you have your scriptures crossed.

              Jeremiah went to his own who were not EX and gave them the truth. granted they were very bad people for sure but he didnt sit at home in excuse not trying to talk to those seeking Jehovah. anyone rejecting Jeremiah were rejecting Jehovah no? what if Jeremiah said nothing?

              i dont blame you and im not the judge. i dont know any witnesses i like hanging around either except here. but many in the Hall’s are still better then those stupid in the world.

              Ez chapter 3 & 33

              they are either Jehovah’s witnesses or they are not. if they have excommunicated themselves then
              they not his witnesses

            • Brian

              Sorry, my bad for crossing up the people. Even so it still has relevance! First DA is one has to recognise JW’s as “Gods organisation on earth”, sorry but I don’t and the only people that do are JW’s themselves (naturally) and some of the X ones that can’t keep up with them and dissipate but still are delusional in the belief that they are the “only one”. Please tell me when did God give them the mantle of being his exclusive property and I don’t mean door to door or taking up his name, I can take his name but it doesn’t give me exclusivity, well I probably couldn’t as the Watchtower would have their lawyers sue me for a copyright breach!?

            • you are either his dedicated witnesses or you are not. Isaiah 43:10

            • Brian

              I haven’t rejected Jehovah, they are your thoughts and words, what I have rejected is a bunch of stiff necked self righteous men that have been spreading falsities that if perpetuated to the time when Jesus arrives to inspect ALL that are putting in faith in him they will be punished for it.
              DA, you say these things with the Watchtower in mind as being “the authority at the full limit of the appointed times to gather all things in the heaven and earth”. When did this actually take place??

            • no, i do not nor have i ever stated the Watchtower is the authority, that is a flat out lie. but you have.

              Jehovah is the authority and i have made that abundantly clear

            • Burt Reynolds

              It appears to me that people being misled or lied to, does not mean that it is not Jehovah’s organisation. A hospital full of mentally ill people ( to loosely quote the governing body) does not make the hospital bad. In days of yor, the priests in the temple doing wrong and hidden things, did not nullify the meaning of Jehovah’s temple. Does being in or out of the congregation deminish or nullify the law on blood, murder, thievery? (Surely knowing such values put on such things brings with it its own condemnation when done in knowledge. But where did we get the meaning of that knowledge?)

              If not, then surely a greater rule applies to the meaning of aliegence. Presumably, given that the judgement of Jehovah’s people begins with his own, then whatever or whoever is judged first will make certain who or what is Jehovah’s organisation. No one else claims to be, (though some use his name). Do people using Jehovah’s name make them a true witness. Proclaiming his name and its meaning would put them in a position of wanting to be known as such. Thus dividing ones self away from such would part a person from that name and duty. Does non attendance do that? Some feel that they can no longer go for reasons that are genuine….harm, scripture…get out of her my people ( they feel that time is now), weary and burdened down,…we are all human and Jehovah does say he will not test beyond endurance. In the end analysis, there is no easy answer that is definitive. Some are kept from speaking in the congregation, yet go, but are ignored and cannot talk to others. Do the congregation have an idea why that person attends if they judge him by their understanding? No. He must speak. How? The congregation is hardly a place where he will be listened to under these circumstances as they would surely believe he is just trying to get back to the very thing he was disfellowshipped from in their terms. But if that person is active and known to be preaching, those seeking find what that person has to say if they seek it out….like here. No one person can be correct in all things. An interesting point to consider is whether someone who is disfellowshipped is disfellowshipped if they keep preaching the word in what ever way and trying to do their best (critically) to do the will of Jehovah and bring themselves under his good judgement. Thus in some cases, what goes on in the watchtower has no value against honest faith and thus perhaps, honesty and application in faith comes down to heart condition and heart condition is controlled by ourselves. I do feel that in the end analysis, as the bible rightly points out, we all, not least me, will be made to be foolish. I wonder sometimes if we will be judged more on what we do with what we believe, that on the detail of what we believe.

            • the lying operation of Christ presence is what proves it and the fact that is where Jehovah has made his name known

            • Brian

              Yeah, well “they” have stated that they are the “The administration at the full limit of the appointed time to gather” and you are one of them. How on earth do you think they quantified “separating the sheep and the goats” under “angelic direction”, the very thing that the REAL administration will be doing???
              As far as my statement that you think is a lie about the Watchtower, honestly, what do you think they would do if someone/I decided to call themselves “witnesses of Jehovah” or some other derivative of it, it would be sue sue sue!

            • i am one of Jehovah’s witnesses.
              by Jehovah’s utterence.
              you dont know what im of.
              angels will be doing the seperating.

              fact: only his witnesses glorify his name and make it known because they are a people for his name and known by it.

              fact: the man of lawlessness resides within the intimate group of his witnesses baring his name, teaching that the day of the Lord already began.

              fact: the World and Babylon and all its sects of Christendom dont give a crap about his name nor the truth and they even suppress it. Babylon is not his kingdom.

              fact: the man of lawlessness comes from the world of Babylon.

              there is only one gathering of people known by his name telling the truth by far more then any Babylonish religion and exposing Babylon sects for what they are an yet also the only place baring Jehovah’s name under an operation of Satan’s by his man of lawlessness who lies about Christ presence and sits in one place and one house only, the house and temple of Jehovah’s people who are his witnesses making his name known loud and clear.

              not the church of Brian.
              not the Born Again fishes.
              not the Catholics.
              not the Orthodoxy.
              not the Latter-Day Saints.
              not the Seventh-Day Adventist.
              not the church of Rock.

              NOWHERE but the group of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              There is no doubt that JW is a spesial people for Jehovahs name and also been under His protection…but there is of course plenty of good “fish” ore “wheat” outside..remember Ninive…was Ninive a city inside of Israel?…were they israelites?
              Was the people of Ninive known for their worship of the true God Jehovah?
              If you could ask Jonah himself,he would say that the Ninivites where the worst of all people at his time…he would not even go on Jehovahs command to shout out that they would all die in 40 days…because he knew those Assyrians where the most brutal …no doubt that Jonah felt that all those people deserved to die…he was even angry when Jehovah was merciful towards them and by grace spared the whole city because they did one simple act of whole-hearted repentance…just what Johannes the baptist later tried to make all of Jehovahs “own” people to do…and far from everyone did.
              The account of Jonah and Ninive can really learn us a LOT…we must take this to heart and try not to judge like Jonah…Jehovahs ways are way above us..we will all be amazed of His merciful grace …who knows?maybe the great crowd will turn out to be a lot greater than we ever dreamed of…lets hope so..:-)(.Matt.7:3)…Matt.5:43,44
              “You heard that it was said :you mus love your neighbour and hate your enemy.
              However,I say to you:continue to love your enemies,and to pray for those who persecute you….”

              What is a true witness of Jehovah?
              Is it a person who making His name known loud and clear?
              Many do…but still He will say onto them: I do not know you…go away.(Matt.7:21-23)
              It is all about reflecting what the name stands for…
              Do the mirror lie?
              No the mirror never lie…it is a true witness who gives the exact reflection of the person standing before it.
              Jesus was and is a true witness because He is the exact reflection of Jehovah like a mirror…this is what a witness of Jehovah is…not a parrot who shout out a name ore render bibel verses … No one of us is important..we are all often wrong about many things…so it is better and safer to pull together and hold up our “mirror”to let everyone see all the good things we do because we by all our heart try our best to “reflect” Jesus and Jehovah in our life …I am happy to walk together with you and Brian …fine brothers 🙂

            • John 3:16

              Your comments remind me of what was said in Isaiah 19

              23 In that day there will be a highway+ out of Egypt to As·syrʹi·a. Then As·syrʹi·a will come into Egypt, and Egypt into As·syrʹi·a, and Egypt will serve God together with As·syrʹi·a. 24 In that day Israel will be the third along with Egypt and with As·syrʹi·a,+ a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 for Jehovah of armies will have blessed it, saying: “Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, As·syrʹi·a, and my inheritance, Israel.”+

              We know there were people in Egypt that left with the Israelites, the Assyrians in Nineveh all changed there ways once Jonah delivered his message, and then there’s Israel, Jehovah’s people. Whenever I read those scriptures I can’t help but come to the conclusion that the Great Crowd will be made up of all sorts of people. Is anyone else seeing it the same way?

            • yes I understand that.

              Amos 3:2

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Read Amos 3:2 together with Amos 9:11-12 …:-)

            • “and all the nations upon whom my name has been called”

              must be one of those Brian congregations. ya know, the ones
              whom Jehovah’s name has been called. any but Jehovah’s

              witnesses

            • Arvid Fløysand

              “But this was highly displeasing to Jonah,and he became hot with anger.So he prayed to Jehovah:Ah,now,Jehovah,was this not my concern when i was in my OWN land?That is why i tryed to flee to Tarshish in the first place;for i knew that you are a compassionate and merciful God,slow to anger and abundant in loyal love,one who feels grieved over calamity.
              Now,O Jehovah,please take away my life,for it is better for me to die than to live.”
              (Jonah 4:1-4)
              How could Jonah act like this?…how could he accuse Jehovah?And what caused him to feel so sorry for himself that he just wanted to die?It seems like Jehovahs mercy (towards a people who was NOT a part of Jehovahs chosen people) became too much for Jonah to cope with….
              I do not know what a “Brian congregation” is.
              I do not support ore follow any humans.
              I try my best to follow Jesus in the same manner as He is following Jehovah,even if it sometimes seems strange to me.
              What ever Jehovah decide to do we must obey…if He decide to save somone beside the organisation of JW…who are we to quetioning Him?
              And what is there to gain by feeling sorry for ourself because things dont work out like we would prefer?
              Jonah himself was swalloved by a big fish…and he in return had to swallov his pride…we all have to do that if we want to move on further 🙂

            • Thinking

              Avrid may I ask you who you socialize with spiritually…it seems you were a witness at some stage…

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hello Thinking 🙂
              Yes you are right …some say that i am not allowed to call myself a witness for Jehovah anymore ore to preach the good gospel about the Kingdom…everything was taken away from me,even my wife left…but i am still a witness for Jehovah and nobody can stop me from preaching the good news of the Kingdom…you see,all the ordinary brothers and sisters on the congregations really love me,and i love them.
              But the leadership rule the whole organisation…does this sound familiar?
              Decpite of all the negatve things,i can asure you,i am very happy and feel strong like a bull…i know i am not alone but still i try to prepare for the ultimate test…feeling left totally alone as if Jehovah Himself step away…i hope i never will have to face that because Jehovah is the only one who never left me ..i put all my trust in Him and Jesus the Christ who learned us who our heavenly Father really is..
              We may be trown out of all kinds of sosiety ore organisations on this earth but Jehovahs organisation is the same as always (His spiritually organisation)…Jesus is the only one who have the autority to decide who is going to belong there ore not..
              We all have to fight ,not only for our own life,but most of all fight for the TRUTH.
              I feel honored to fight togeter with you and all the fine brothers and sisters on this site…the great crowd is really great 🙂

              Stay strong my sister and continue to look for all the positive things 🙂

            • Joseph S.

              Funny how Jehovah shifts and shakes his finest gold nuggets from the organization, to land hear for further education. To be prepared for that great day!

              https://youtu.be/4IjmRNnXRcs

            • Beverly kenyon

              Bloomin heck, Arvid, I can’t understand why they treated you, one of the most humble, spiritual, Christlike brothers in such a way?! I will still say you have got be called/invited even though you will never admit it as you’re so humble Arvid and so insightful when it comes to explaining the beauty and life lessons of the Bible, you truly are blessed by Jehovah Arvid and I’m very sorry to hear you lost your wife…it must’ve been a challenging and heartbreaking time for you and I’m sure your family played a part in supporting you all the way. I would never have guessed your story would’ve been so horrific! But it’s great to hear you’re still so positive and happy!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              I have no problem with what i have been thru …maybe i asked for it myself.
              21 years ago i prayed for only one thing…i wanted to learn how to put my ego in the right place…so i asked if Jehovah could teach me to be humble in same manner as His fateful servants in ancient times.
              So i am not angry ore bitter towards anyone but rather got the feeling of taken care of…i chose to turn my back on anger and bitterness and pity myself..and turned 180 degree to do the opposite…we are all of us very fortunate..we do not got the best teatcher in the world but in the whole universe.:-)
              We may loose all in this world but never let anything ore anyone take your faith away…If we continue to protect our faith with our own life …than we as mere humans of dust have provided the evidence that is necessary in the biggest trial ever.
              What grater honor can a human get?
              Jehovah put trust in US?
              He created us and trust us to “help” Him to give the best answer possible to the greatest accuser of all time.
              The very same accuser that are able to make even great mighty engels to give away their faith.
              By the ransom,Holy spirit,love and faith we chose to do it…and Jehovah can say:Look…there you have the answer to your accusations…all those meek ones still got faith …and the table will shift..it will be satans turn to taste his own medicine…continue to think, act and speak posetive.No one can stop us from moving far away from this world in our mind…and place ourself and all our friends,both dead and living in the wonderful paradise future 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, sometimes you make me fill up with the things you write…your Faith and humbleness is something to behold and some of your points are truly inspiring, insightful and very indepth and deep with knowledge. When you asked to be able to get your ego in check it would appear that Jehovah answered you and brought you low but you didn’t stay there obviously and it’s made you the person I’ve just described and maybe more as we only know you from here and the things you write about. You’re so right…us specks of dust have had the opportunity to provide the evidence in the biggest trial yet and Jehovah put that trust in us when we’re called to be his witness, a witness for his side of this universal case. That’s mind boggling! That Jehovah put some trust in us for him…I like that point! The other day you said, it’s a foregone conclusion, it’s a done deal when Jesus said, look, I see Satan already fallen..Luke10:18. So knowing that, we should hold on to our faith strongly knowing that the Accuser and Taunter is going to be locked away like the lying, mass murderer he is, him and his gang! Bye, bye. Ta-ra! Thank you Arvid for sharing those personal details of your life with us.

            • Joseph S.

              Put some earphones on my brother and enjoy !!

              https://youtu.be/Y43Z0WJLDS4

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Thank you 🙂

            • Thinking

              You too brother

            • Beverly kenyon

              And I think Arvid, Nineveh was the Capitol of Assyria and it’s people were enemies of Israel and they had history so Jonah would have felt resentful about going to preach a message of repentance to his people’s enemies. So yeah, Jehovah does care for people of ALL nations and you’re right, he most probably will save others others other than JW’s and who are we to argue with him on what he chooses to do because one of the lessons that came out in the book of Jonah was obedience as you rightly state. The book of Jonah is a riveting read with many lessons to learn.

            • Brian

              Hilarious, the “Church of Brian”! The man of lawlessness has been residing in the “Christian Congregations” since before John died, the out workings of the apostasy had already begun before he died and it is stated that it will be here all of the way down to the day of Jesus arrival when HE and only HE will reveal the man of lawlessness. The Watchtower claimed to have revealed the man or lawlessness a long time ago, another, in a plethora of false,misleading and dare I say Blasphemous statements as they are taking away from Jesus his very position in doing theses very things!
              You talk about sects in Christendom, the Watchtower is just another one claiming to be “the only true congregation”, I haven’t met anyone yet that doesn’t think that their outfit is the “right one” and all others are wrong.
              DA, you still haven’t given me an explanation about the Watchtower being “the administration” when it clearly isn’t, another blasphemous statement as it is the Kingdom that will be gathering all of those together to the heavens and the earth, I would have though by now people would understand that Jehovah has had enough of entrusting “responsibility” to man, Israel would have been enough for anyone to be turned off!

            • yeah and all the other sects dont have jack to do with his name.

              all the other sects dont teach the day of the Lord is hear.

              all other sects dont even try or come close to the truth.

              pifft, no comparison.

              tell me what other people of faith bring reproach on his name? ha none but Jehovah’s witnesses.

              yes i have. Jehovah is the admin.
              the Watchtower is the mother that he will put to silence.

              e-watchman.com/closer-look-1914

              e-watchman.com/conspiracy-of-silence-soon-to-end

              e-watchman.com/the-perversity-of-you-men

            • Brian

              To the contrary DA there are plenty of other “groups” stating that the day is near. When Jehovah says/stated via the prophets that he will take a people for himself he is referring to Israel, spiritual Israel and they will have his or bear his name, so when the chosen are indeed sealed that is when they will be his people and will bare his name and not before hand. All that are seen as bringing reproach to Jesus name are doing the very same to Jehovah as he has given Jesus all things under his feet, i.e. slag off at the son and you are doing the same thing to the father as they are operating as one.. Judgement will be coming upon ALL those professing to be Christians unless you can tell me when that judgement has already happened.

              In the letters to the 7 congregations there is a reference to the sect of Nicolaus, now this joker seems to have been associated with preparing/organising and feeding people literal food and, I and no doubt others can identify “Christian groups” today that are totally focused on feeding and clothing the poor but neglect to or don’t really even know what the message is that needs to be relayed to those that they are feeding. I know this can’t be in reference to the JW’s because they rarely if at all help anyone outside of the society so they can’t be harbouring this sect of Nicolaus!! So all of those letters to the 7 congregations can’t be to Watchtower specifically and of course they are not but the Watchtower states that they are.

            • no, the scripture says otherwise. there are those already swearing by his name. obviously seen world wide translated in more languages then any other orgenasation.
              every sect of Christendom who REJECT something as simple as the truth of Jehovah’s name and his being God in relation to his created Son Michael, say the day is near, except the true temple of Jehovah are in error saying the day of the nation’s already began and the kingdom has been ruling for over a hundred years and the Lord’s parousia has already been. again, that is because the man of lawlessness is disguised among them.

              the scriptures say othereise. there are two those witnesses already swearing by Jehovah’s name all over the world in more languages you can shake a one ended stick at who do NOT need to be sealed before they make his name known and are known by his name themselves.

            • Brian

              I think you are drawing a very long bow in calling the Watchtower the “temple of Jehovah”, in fact it is more than just a bow. The temple is the Kingdom and it they are saying that they are the temple that is a blasphemous statement in their elevation on the earth. Jesus said that his Kingdom is NO PART of this world so how can the Watchtower be the Temple, only in the minds of deluded people.
              When it was stated that the body is the Temple it is the body of the CHOSEN ones along with the apostles and Jesus in the heavens. If the Watchtowers is so hell bent on promoting this on this subject they have something in common with the beast as it will be sitting where it ought not be, i.e. in the place of Gods Kingdom, one would need to be very careful in elevating ones self to such a haughty position in the face of God.

            • i never called the WT the temple of Jehovah. your putting words in my moth, again. obviously it is a Idol and headquarters located in the city of tearing down where the GB meet and where Jehovah’s name is made known to most all the earth. obviously Jehovah and his anointed are involved with the headquarters known as Bethel, WTB&TS, Gilead, etc.. (Isaiah chapter 19)
              the Watchtower is not hellbent but those that are involved within the Watchtower are hellbent on making the name of God know. what could that name be i wonder? oh yeah its JEHOVAH. – https://e-watchman.com/antichrist-coming/

            • Brian

              So you are being spirit directed to separate the sheep and the goats, so you must agree that the Watchtower is correct in that the Kingdom has indeed arrived and that the tribulation has already occurred because the Harvest or the separation of the sheep and goats is the conclusion of the system!?
              I don’t know why people are insistent on thinking that the wheat makes up something more than the actual chosen sons of God, there is no mention of a lessor wheat that didn’t quite make the cut or the sheep for that matter, these parables state that it is the Kingdom is “like” the separation or the harvest or the 10 of which only five make it, it is not about all those that remain to be on the earth. The scriptures are all about collecting those for the kingdom heavens and that is something the Watchtower in their “running ahead” and pig headedness are NOT doing, the most important job and they have neglected to continue to do it to chase after those that will be on “paradise earth” WRONG!

            • no. and you should go to a KH meeting because you are just as annoying
              as Jehovah’s witnesses who cant accept the truth but make every excuse to rebuttal your way from the reality of the matter after being told. i never agreed the GT has already accured and you should know that just as everyone else here knows of me. the wheat make up those who are in his kingdom. are more then the anointed part of his kingdom? obviously yes. duh.

            • Brian

              What “truth” are you suggesting that I can’t accept DA? In still believing in events or scriptures relating to post GT as already happened or happening such as a select group of anointed being present, whilst not thinking that the GT has happened people still have in their minds sequences of events that promote the beast being here already but because it was a vision of the Lords day how can that be, you talk of the JW’s or the Watchtower being deluded but this is in no way any different. It works the same way in propaganda DA, the first and most powerful story told is or are the ones that are the most difficult to rid yourself of. Remember the line about “inculcation” from the platform??

            • Brian

              “Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. When it was full, they hauled it up onto the beach, and sitting down, they collected the fine ones into containers, but the unsuitable they threw away. That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.
              “Kingdom of the heavens” is the operative phrase here and this can be applied to anywhere else it states this. The people that actually make up the “great crowd’ after the tribulation are not considered in these statements, there is a reference to “another flock” yes but it is another one and not the same as these. Everyone other than those that are chosen for the Kingdom of the heavens are considered as being dead no matter what your standing is or you think it is. Yes there are those same great crowd that have “washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb” because they have given themselves to Christ and the Kingdom when it becomes apparent.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Who are the letters to Brian?

            • Brian

              All of the Christian congregations as in all congregations that have people in them that have put their trust in Jesus no matter how poorly or good they are performing, there has been no separation, judging or appointing of the “faithful and discrete slave” has there? As these letters are also mentioned in the “vision of the Lords day” it also goes that they are still there in the Lords day, well unless you are still of the belief that Jesus came in 1914 and by 1919 he had judged all of those that weren’t a part of the Watchtower!!!!!

            • Brian

              At least you are recognising that there are “other sects” out there DA, that’s a good start, who will be seen as the “faithful and discreet slave” (discrete is an operative word here) remains to be seen but if the judgement of the entire congregations of Jesus has not taken place shouldn’t all people of all of the congregations still be referred to as brothers even though some are wayward? Also at Galatians 5:26 “Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.” Do you think this should apply if the judgement has not begun as yet?

            • “now the works of the flesh are … [u]sects[/u]”

              “shouldn’t all people of all of the congregations be called brothers”

              they are not all of God’s congregation. they are not all a people for his name.

              call your brother who you like and care for who you do but
              do all religions lead to knowing Jehovah? no.

            • Brian

              DA, the Watchtower or JW’s are a sect, Sect Def: “a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs
              (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which
              they belong.” JW’s are a sect of a sect! Maybe everyone was suppose to stay with the one albeit “apostate” administration and work it out from the inside. Jehovah is the only one that knows who are his sons so anyone on this planet that thinks they know who they (Gods sons) are, are having a lend of themselves no matter what name they have taken for themselves!
              All of Christendom in there “delusion” are still as far as I know are using Jesus name as their saviour, know the son and you will know the father.

            • the Watchtower is a Idol mother used as a tool to distribute information by those that make up Jehovah’s witnesses. – https://e-watchman.com/are-jehovahs-witnesses-part-of-a-cult/

              you are my sect is the uterine of Jehovah? nope. they are not a sect. they are the congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses, weather scattered sheep or grouped. Christendom is Babylon and not a biblical word but reference to those with a similar language such as Catholicism, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. they make up the Harlot of Babylon the Great. they do not teach the truth about Jehovah’s name and his relationship to his only-begotten Son Michael also known as Jesus.

            • Richard Long

              Wierd side point:

              In 1988/89 my then wife and I decided to attend church together to enhance our marriage, and since I was baptized as a Baptist, we chose the local (San Bernardino) Calvary Chapel mini-megachurch. On large cloth banners to to the left and right behind the pulpit were emblazoned all the names for God these parishioners could think of INCLUDING Jehovah and Jesus. Having been exposed to the Truth by my father when ages 11-13 and some more age 17, this stirred in me a profound conflict and I could never go back, no matter how much I thoroughly enjoyed the musical program. I might have mentioned previously that I was baptized in 1990 ( I think I wrote 1991, but that was wrong).

              The point is we just don’t know what we don’t know, and the angels, fully engaged in spiritual warfare, are busy taking care of business in ways beyond our knowing, maybe even beyond our imagining. It might be said I was led to Jehovah (and yes Jehovah’s Witnesses a la the WT) by the angels using the Baptist’s, and I have been led out of the WT (inactivity even if only temporarily) by the angels through the misgivings of my conscience, and led to this place by the angels via the deconstruction of the 1914 hoax by Daniel Genser, a brother no longer professing belief in God. I still WANT to belong to Jehovah’s organization or special people or however one might distinguish themselves to Jehovah as one in union with Jesus, but I am forced to at least consider the possibility that such a scripturally defined “organization” has not yet formed, as it is said (by Robert, in an article you yourself linked me to) to form during the parousia, which we most here generally agree is a future event. I desperately wanted and still want that “spiritual paradise”, but it currently only exists inside the delusion, where I can no longer exist.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              “You Are My Witnesses” – When?.
              Excerpt:
              Jehovah’s Witnesses realize that the prophecy applies foremost to the return of Christ —“Jacob” being synonymous with Christ’s congregation. The eighth chapter of Daniel similarly foretells that the holy ones of the Prince of princes and the holy place will become desolate.

              It is, then, when God extends mercy to those that have experienced destruction that Jehovah calls upon the forgiven to serve as his witnesses. According to the opening words of the 43rd chapter Jacob is called by God’s name only after he is repurchased: “Do not be afraid, for I have repurchased you. I have called you by your name. You belong to me.”
              So, the call for his people to serve as witnesses to the Godship of Jehovah is to come about after the tribulation —after “Jerusalem” has been made desolate. Again, Jesus spoke of a great final witness to be given to the governors and kings of this world then: “You will be brought before kings and governors for the sake of my name. It will result in your giving a witness. Therefore, resolve in your hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make your defense, for I will give you words and wisdom that all your opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute.”Read more> https://e-watchman.com/you-are-my-witnesses-when/

            • Brian

              Indeed Kevin, the “preaching of the good news” is supposed to be in relation to the collection of all together in Christ and therefore be eligible to be selected/chosen by Jehovah to be sons of God and brothers to Jesus and this has been ongoing in one way shape or form since the time of the apostles right up until after the tribulation which is the big “sorter”, after this time the ” 2 witnesses” will stand with an entirely new message to all and sundry and as John tells us in Revelation it is a sweet tasting but bitter when digested message. Of course we don’t know what this message is but the JW’s had already stated that they were the 2 witnesses (1988 Study book of Revelation) and they were/have/are already giving the “sweet and bitter” message. They seem to be lining themselves up for a right royal kick in the quoit!

            • Beverly kenyon

              As you know or don’t know Brian, I think the world of DA and I do hang on to his every word as I trust what he says as he’s so very human but I’ve got to agree with you in the things you’ve written in your post. All religions are part of Babylon, JW’s included. Missionaries preach about Jesus Christ around the world so that sort of work isn’t exclusive to JW’s like they make out and there’s other faiths that are similar to JW’s…one being the Exclusive Bretheren and they believe in the MOL but they call it, the Man of Sin, so they’re all in it together and the GT is going to be the defining moment for the lot of them and when the Son of Man comes back to judge them all.

            • Brian

              Indeed Beverly, another similar are the Christadelphians (and no I am not a part of them), JW’s have hijacked the “letters to the 7 congregations” of Revelation to be exclusively applied to them and them alone, personally I would never want to take on the condemnation that is in them but JW’s use this a motivation to the congregations to keep order, I suppose that is OK until you beat people up over it especially when it is a message to ALL professing faith in Christ congregations throughout the entire earth as these have NOT been judged by Jesus as yet and especially they weren’t judged in 1919 like “some” like to announce.
              Yes, DA does make very valid and often uplifting comments, no problems there just sometimes the “blinkers” get in the way and of course that is not exclusive!

            • Beverly kenyon

              DA is fierce about what he believes and I respect whatever he says as I know he’s knowledgeable and he identifies with the witnesses and that’s true as he is a baptised JW but I’ve stood back and given it much thought and I’ve delved and read a lot about my religion and I agree with some of your opinions and no, they were not judged at all in 1919, I agree with that as well, they were hyping things up to fit prophecy….Rutherford was ruthless and very driven to convey that his Society was chosen specially by God. My opinion of Rutherford is that he was a control freak and when he launched his bid for ‘leadership’ of the Society by getting rid of the competion and expelling probably anointed ones of that time, he was revealing himself as the MOL and getting thrown in prison he should’ve recognised it as being disciplined by Jehovah. Yeah, he had great organisational skills but he brought in things like posting time spent in the ministry causing a competitive atmosphere and really for their own glory and so what he unearthed who the Great Crowd were, someone would’ve eventually found that Bible gem, hasn’t Brother King interpreted Bible prophecy that makes sense, so why should finding out about the Great Crowd make Rutherford so special?! He also made out how sacrificial he was in getting locked up for his faith but really, behind the scene him and his team were trying to cut a deal in trying to get out of prison! If I was told to choose a religion I would still identify as a JW as I will never forget the feeling of when I was first told about the Kingdom, the 144,000, the Great Crowd, the resurrection, the Paradise New Earth and Jesus Christ as our Perfect King…I still have that feeling of awe and excitement! But as for some of the people…mmmm, I reserve judgement!

            • Richard Long

              On Rutherford… not to mention his mistress, his abandoned wife and son, Beth Sarim, and the lavish luxury cars he allowed publishers to gift him. Did I write that out loud?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Loud and clear Richard!

            • Thinking

              Very nice…

      • Richard Long

        Not objecting, just reiterating to ensure what I “heard” is what you meant for us to “hear”.

        The WT’s identification of the Anglo-American Empire as the seventh head of the Revelation 17 scarlet-colored wild beast is premature, because the seventh head arises during the parousia, which is yet future. We might more rightly identify the Anglo-American Empire, being a continuation of the Roman Empire, as the sixth head, the very same “one is” at the time of John’s receiving the Revelation from Jesus. You would say that persistence in identifying the Rev 17 beast seventh head as the present Anglo-American Empire is delusion echo. Right so far?

        Now objecting, respectfully:
        When you say: “So to analyse this at the time when the seventh head is to be added the ten are instantly added to the remainder of the beast so it is not until those ten kings are ready to “rule over the world” that the 7th head appears”, are we not making an assumption not in scripture? John was shown a vision of the Lords day of the woman riding a complete beast with seven heads and meeting her end at it’s hand. How can we say positively WHEN the seventh head “appears”? All I can ascertain for certain is that it is in place at the occurrence of the prostitute queen’s destruction during the parousia.

        Leaving the ascension to power of the 10 horns and the springing forth of the Eighth King aside, where do we go from here?

        • Brian

          Richard, that is an assumption as you say and it is not scriptural.Now saying that, in Daniel were he is talking about the fourth and last beast the ten horns spring from it, if they spring from it they spring from the 6th head. Now we know we don’t have 10 major players holding sway with the same thoughts at the moment to join together to create the conditions to bring this about, but again they spring or come from the 6th head and by doing so (now here is the speculation) they form the 7th head and then the composite of this is the beast, i.e. the little horn/eighth Kingdom. I think we will all know when the 7th head will appear, it will be as plane as the nose on your face. It’s interesting to note also that Revelation doesn’t state which head receives the blow but I’d put a pound to a pinch of something naughty to say that it will be the 7th head. If you re read Daniel from 11;29 on can you tell me if you read something that is different about the description of the Kings and how they have been described as dealing with each other from pre 11:29? Please let me know it you find something different to what you have been shown.

          • Richard Long

            I find that, having read the suggested texts and still having trouble understanding the prophesy on its face, I am not positioned to make any assumptions and by virtue of my lack of “gifts” of insight may have to be in the wait and see column as opposed to the see, I told you so column. Which is ok because, as you have pointed out previously knowing exactly what to expect and when is neither more nor less valuable than being in expectation of something that will be instantly recognizable and knowing how to react to it when it occurs. Both paths lead one to the same event horizon prepared to choose sides with Christ, You are just perhaps more prepared and inclined at present to be a prophesy wonk, while I am at present engaged in establishing a sure footing, No?

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, digestion of any of it takes some time as one needs to evaluate what has already been planted to supplant it with something else. Sometimes I have found that I need to re read a scripture many times before it stares out at you.

            • Richard Long

              Unless perhaps one evaluates what was planted needs to be discarded outright and not supplanted at all. This is just you and I talking, as we have before, so I ask you to remember your audience. I am at trust noone, challenge everything, and trying to do so with a head full of WT fog, so my questioning is as one seeing things for the first time. Similarities aside and differences considered, please argue for me that we can conclusively state the Rev 17 beast ridden by BTG, and the Rev 13 beast are one and the same.

            • Brian

              We can conclusively state that the beast of Rev 13 is indeed the very same one as in Rev 17

            • Richard Long

              Can we please show me how we know this?

            • Brian

              Richard, as these are the only mention of a beast that has 7 heads and ten horns and Daniel only mentions one “entity” that has ten horns there can only be one ten horned beast the very same one mentioned along with the ten toes of the statue image in Daniel.

            • Richard Long

              I’m not saying you are wrong, because I don’t know, but you absolutely just made a WT style assumption there. Plenty of men are unfortunate enough to RESEMBLE me, but none of them are me.

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, it doesn’t bother me if you are saying I am wrong, I am not trying to present anything as being the absolute “truth” but I would beckon you to look at the scriptures that refer to the occurrences of the subject matter. I am not so sure what you mean about “the resemble me” bit?

            • Richard Long

              Forget the resemble analogy, it sucked anyway. I’m trying to make the point that we all might be of more use to each other if we post each and every comment including speculation marked as such. For me personally, it is less distressing to know we all understand we are discussing theory to entertain ourselves, all the more so given our shared history of consuming vast quantities of WT hoodoo processed through WT voodoo and turned into WT doodoo. For a century and a half, the WT has forbidden us to speculate, not because it is dangerous for us, which it certainly can be, but for fear of drying up the cash cow. Russell, a noted businessman had a contemporary named John D. Rockefeller who famously coined the term “competition is a sin”.

              I will demonstrate “proper” speculation:

              I speculate that the Rev 17 beast does not even need to exactly match the Rev 13 beast because the subject of the Rev 17 vision was the identification of the woman, while the beast merely added context as to the woman’s identity. Such context might be lost on John had he not received the Rev 13 vision previously and the angel might​ then have had to give the full details and explaination of the Rev 17 beast.

            • Brian

              Richard, totally off scripture, when you said you were on machines is that earthmoving equipment or manufacturing machines or some other types?

            • Richard Long

              I work in an auto assembly plant. my work is feeding aluminum body parts into robot cells. many of the jobs have some “butt time” due to throughput issues, but when they’re hungry, gotta feed em.

            • Brian

              US? Ford?

            • Richard Long

              Kentucky Truck Plant, Louisville. F250-F550, Expedition and Navigator

            • Joseph-Southern Style

              Ohhhhh man! I was hoping for something extra exciting, like being the guy in Bowling Green Kentucky @ the Corvette plant. Who gets to jump in the Corvettes as they roll off the line & gets to jump in, https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/23f39a684cf91b419e2d70f59ff1c213c07fd3fc11efc691d599f3ff30eee165.jpg push the button and hear THAT engine roar to life!
              Yeah! That guy or girl!

            • Richard Long

              Well, my life isn’t​ too bad right now. How about the view from behind the wheel of a 69k Navigator.

              I mean​, if you’re into that kind of thing. ://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cc1969731d43f6f10c618777eb476da6f24a6fe4d441657951cd32f20f3b6afb.jpg me

            • Joseph-Southern Style

              Sounds cool to me, I could walk around those Ford vehicles making all kinds of Tim “the tool time ” Taylor grunts!
              https://youtu.be/3QbIrUVfhhE

            • Richard Long

              F series trucks are the #1 selling vehicle in the world over 35 years running. Henry was still a Nazi, though.

            • Brian

              Figured it might have been Ford as they went to using a lot of Aluminium in the bodies, we don’t get so many of them here in OZ.

            • Richard Long

              You will. The the industry has no choice but to follow. We took 800 lbs off F150, 300 lbs off SuperDuty (left in steel front support and beefed up the frame). Navigator and Expedition launching this summer will get the 800 lb savings too. Thats like throwing 4 passengers out the window, fuel economy wise. In the US, CAFE isnt just the name of the game, it IS the game.

            • Brian

              We won’t get too many of them 150 and 250 will be the extent and they are really expensive here and are really only any good for posers! Most of our junk now is Japanese and European, we used to make our own once upon a time! Ford shut last year, Holden (GM) and Toyota this year .

            • Richard Long

              What I mean is aluminum bodies will soon be industry standard.

            • Brian

              OK 🙂

        • the 7th head is ruling now.
          that’s why we are waiting for the death/sword stroke.
          it is the South & North kings making up a composite two horned beast. the U.S. & London governments.
          then it heals and rises from the ashes. the 8th king is just their image; persona that itself can be called a 8th king for reason its given life again.

          • Richard Long

            Glad to hear from you again, DA. I had wondered if I had offended or in some other way brought you pain and was much concerned. Hope all is well, and if it is not, I remain ready to expend myself in whatever way you imagine I may be a blessing to you, as you are very much a gift from Jehovah to me.

            You have summarized for me the understanding I myself hold following my reading of Robert’s book and essays. You no doubt have read some of my exchanges with Brian and I now am asking that we let some more discussion take place between Brian and Robert and others whom Robert may choose to engage with. I fear we may all be unduly pressuring Robert to defend published positions from the standpoint of continuity of message, as we have done to the WT. I believe Robert’s great work is not yet finished and he is, more than any of us, both entitled and likely to “evolve” in his understanding of at least some of these matters and we should not deny him the same freedom in exercising whatever WT delusion residual, if any, he may yet be laboring under.

          • the north already subjugated the south but not totally 8th king style. thats why the libertarians, demsocrats, deep state complex, the elite, etc… are going ape sheaaa.., because Trump came outa nowhere and they want to keep things the way they have been going since the British schermed the federal reserve back in 1913 enslaving humanity with the debt dollar.
            that is why there is currently a “pushing” that is partly all your fake news probaganda, the Russian, CIA/FBI hype you’ve been witnessing. the north is going to storm. perhaps by this indirectly causing Russia to war against the U.S.. Trump wants “America great again” and that will put a stop to the British banker scheme that has enslaved the U.S. promoting it’s tyrannical policies and using the U.S. big teeth and feet to crush and dominate; hegeomy. but Trump will not succeed with that, either remove in persuasion to act differently then his initial plans or however. they may achieve some claimed peace & security looking like hero’s but the U.S. (Egypt) will then experience blackout, so will Tyre. that will effect the globe with crises here and there as it has been and of course Jehovah’s witnesses particularly. that current 7th world order will revive it’s image out of the abyss with a harlot overtone by its breath and function by a new order which itself is a 8th king that won’t last but only long enough to kill off the anointed causing Armageddon.

            thats the way my mind works it out. is it correct? problem not but im sure its darn close

            • Beverly kenyon

              It is darn close DA! Love your explanation in a nutshell as you covered everything…all those groups going ape and Trump martial lawing his own which he won’t hesitate to do as displayed when he wasn’t afraid to sack that FBI boss, Comey. Jehovah’s plans are all slotting into place accordingly.

            • Joseph S.
            • Beverly kenyon

              Joseph, that vid was a real eye opener! Bloomin heck, Trump was even connected to Jeffrey Epstein, the paedophile and even accused of the same thing as his pal! Euuw! Comey has the dirt on Trump and knows where the ‘bodies are buried’ so Trump had to make his move first in showing Comey by firing him ‘I’m stronger than you and I’m the Boss’ so think carefully before you take me on…it was a psychological strategic move on Trump’s part. Not surprised depraved sexual practices are involved as isn’t that what Demons feed off…power, sex and violence….the same sins and vices that brought them down in Noah’s day, so no change there!

            • Brian

              DA, the north doesn’t subjugate the south Daniel states at 11:29 “At the time appointed he will go back, and he will actually come against the south; but it will not prove to be at the last the same as at the first. And there will certainly come against him the ships of Kitʹtim, and he will have to become dejected.
              If he has/had subjugated the south he would hardly become dejected, in fact it would be the opposite.

            • yeah, that was the case. it wasn’t the same as the first. that’s why they lost and later had to scheme another way to own the U.S. through the monetary banking system; Wall Street; Federal Reserve, etc…

            • Brian

              When did that happen DA? The setting up of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation is a direct result of this failed attempt to “overtake” the south. If you want to look at the British based “city of London” as being the king of the North this must have happened a long time ago as they have been usurping countries monetary systems for probably more than a couple of hundred years.
              As you know DA I do not believe that the “Anglo American Duo” is the twin horned beast/critter, it follows after the first beast comes out of the sea and after it receives a “death stroke” seeing as it is once again a vision in/of the Lords day how can any of this be the case at this point in time? We need to stick with the biblical facts and don’t go beyond them, we may be fortunate or unfortunate enough to see these things take place.
              There will be no ambiguity in recognising the real beast and the real two horned beast when they do actually arrive, you won’t need to try and interpret a happening DA, it will be plain for ALL that are looking on to see.
              I am looking at all of these scenarios with a much bigger picture in mind DA, the whole world is under Satan’s power and the WHOLE world is involved and not just two (one insignificant one) Nations.

            • when did this happen? youve been told already.
              do you believe that Robert is anointed? then accept his answer.
              if you do not, then i have no answer for you and neither does Jehovah
              because through Robert the answer is from him. that is the TRUTH youre stubborn to accept.

            • Brian

              I’ve been told already!? Have you ever heard of the Third Reich DA?

            • Beverly kenyon

              That’s funny Brian but DA doesn’t mean anything personally, he’s just going through a tough time emotionally.

      • Richard Long

        Since we are indulging in speculation…
        Would you go so far as to say that the seventh head would NOT be an extension of the sixth (Rome – HRE -Anglo/American), essentially a new player in the way each previous empire was unexpectedly supplanted by a new one? Or do the feet of Iron and clay demand the last king to be of Roman origin?

        Perhaps the UN will turn out the be the final empire/seventh head AND the eighth king. The former in the sense that when Rome/Anglo-American Empire falls, the Romanesqe senate styled representative UN of today emerges to pick up the pieces of world governance, as the oligarchy as been preparing it to do by means of WTO, IMF, and the myriad other agencies and institutions. Perhaps it receives it’s fatal stroke when it “fails by design” to prevent WWIII, having it’s impotence revealed. In the aftermath of the conflagration, it receives full backing from the oligarchy and recovers to become the latter, the totalitarian eighth king. Would that fit what the prophecies actually say?

        • Brian

          Richard, it would appear that the feet and toes are made in part of the very substance the legs are made of so yes it would be still apart of the legs and it does explain the mixing of the clay with it, also the 4th beast in later chapters is depicting the very same thing, the beast with 10 horns in which from amongst them springs a little one but it is still talking about the same entity, the narrative does not change so it actually isn’t speculation. Do we know when the sealed book is unsealed, is it starting to be unsealed now and which part of the book is to be unsealed as a lot of it seems to flow straight out of it and is explained by Daniel? If I was to say yes it has been unsealed that would be unwarranted speculation and like many others have done and are still doing by “crowing” about it that would but me under judgement.
          I can’t help but to keep on reiterating the point of delusion from the “kingdom has already arrived” crew, it is these that told everybody that the beast was already here and in their minds the 2 horned beast (Anglo/ US empire) must have followed it post WW2 when the beasts head was supposedly slaughtered and of course a two headed beast must be here so in their minds the duo fits the bill, this is speculation and the beauty of time unravels all of this to be proven as pure and unadulterated bunkum!
          What I am trying to do is not read into it but read all of the rubbish out of it, take away everything that doesn’t fit and start again. Another head twister is the king of the north and south which is also obviously tied into this same subject but not going there today.

          • Richard Long

            “I can’t help but to keep on reiterating the point of delusion from the “kingdom has already arrived” crew,”

            You have completely convinced me on the necessity to examine every belief handed from the WT and, AT THE VERY LEAST, first determine if it is an upshot from the false parousia or not. And yet it is still an exacting and laborious task, as we are so thoroughly, chronically poisoned with it.

            “What I am trying to do is not read into it but read all of the rubbish out of it, take away everything that doesn’t fit and start again” .

            And this I can support also

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, it is a battle to get on top of all of this but we must, I hope that you can succeed in doing so.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Have you ever thought of stripping it back to basics, like stripping an engine? The truth is not difficult, or exacting in its understanding. If it were, how would the ‘stupid’ or humble be content with it? 2Timothy3 is a good example, where it describes the manner of people. It good because people could argue that there have always been people with that attitude. It’s vague. It’s left to us to read the issues as a whole, with supporting evidence.

              And yet, Jehovah does not want any of us to die, but to live? And so you could ask yourself, why is he not explicit? If Jehovah is that worried about our welfare and as loving as he makes himself out to be, why does he not give us exact instructions as to how to get to the place of safety? What does it matter if your brother thinks he has already arrived, or that he is going to pour out his spirit at the memorial this year? It is not a sin to believe that Christ has already come, or that Satan has been thrown down already. But it will cloud the issues for us and make things more difficult than they need be, because we will have our own haughtiness to deal with when presented with fact at a time of huge trouble as well as all else that ails our minds.

              How are we expected to get it all right…..some will always be convinced in either direction. I presume this is why the bible is written the way that it is, to allow for choice. The reason being of course, is that the choice is ours. It does not matter how well argued the belief is as we will always make our choice according to our hearts. What does matter, as we all know, is where our faith lies. That faith can be enhanced by sound biblical knowledge and through reasoning such knowledge grows, it’s true, but it is not the test. The test will be answered by our heart, that essence inside us that identifies truth and compels us to even die for it, for without it, there is no God, no future. As the bible says, if we have not love (of Jehovah and his righteousness) we have nothing and all that we do, is of no consequence. I put my entire faith in that scripture because from love, all else has meaning and critically, that is where the judgement rests…..do we love Him? The only real guide within us is to acknowledge to ourselves whether we are being true with ourselves. Are we prepared to give ourselves to Jehovah, because he, and all that he is, is who we are too, in union with him, and what we love. Do you need a bible for that? No. Creation speaks for it’s self and inbuilt love of righteousness and thus of the Creator of righteousness, is what will open our eyes to it and to him, because we will be looking for him. That much us inbuilt within us so to do. That is what will put your engine back together correctly.

        • Brian

          “Would you go so far as to say that the seventh head would NOT be an
          extension of the sixth (Rome – HRE -Anglo/American), essentially a new
          player in the way each previous empire was unexpectedly supplanted by a
          new one?”

          Richard, it would be a “new player” as you say and still with the consistency of the old one according to Daniel as they come out of last beast, it is a new head that has to be there to have the ten kings/horns “planted” on it and then the beast is completed which in turn is the little horn or the eight king (with no kingdom, purely political??), This “new player” will encompass the whole world and for this to happen the major “movers and shakers” of the world or the 10 most prominent “kings” or nations of the world will be working to get everyone one on board and we can see the ground work for this going on now and for some years, it will probably need some sort of Catalyst to get it going and that is left for the imagination as to what that would/could be.

  • Francis Bencharles

    These are the “in the days of those kings” mentioned in Daniel 2.

    • Brian

      Except the fact that “those kings” have not been assembled to represent the toes, horns or otherwise as yet..

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    To My Dear Respected Brother Robert King,

    You said that present institutions that have ruled over them —symbolized as the sun, moon and stars. So what does the Sun, moon and stars symbolized in Rev: 12:1? If you say the sun, moon and stars symbolizes present institutions that have ruled over them that means the Sun moon and stars (= present institutions) Rev:12:1 is protecting the woman of Rev:12:1? Your insight is much valuable.

    But my view point is like this. I don’t think so it is so. Of course bible represents Jehovah as Sun (Psalms: 84:11: For Jehovah God is a sun and a shield ;). Why Jehovah is called as Sun? Just as how earth would be a dead planet without Sun, so without Jehovah everything will cease to exist, not only that Sun do not depend on any other celestial body to give its light. It gives light from itself, so is Jehovah also do not depend on any one to live he has life in himself. So Jehovah is represented as Sun. Sun sustains life on earth similarly in spiritual sense it was Jehovah who protected and sustained the people of the
    covenant the ancient Israelites hence Jehovah is called as Sun. So ancient woman (= old covenant = Hagar in Gal: 4:24) was protected by Jehovah. But in Revelation 12:1 we see the woman adoring the sun, I can say here in Rev: 12:1 Sun represents Jesus, because Jesus had been given all the authority in heaven and on earth, (Mat: 28:18). So Jesus has authority to do what Jehovah can do, so Jesus is Sun. There is also another reason how sun represents Christ? Just as how Sun does not depend on any other celestial body to produce light, Jesus also do not depend on anyone one to live, because Jehovah has given the life in himself, so Jesus is also Sun (John:5:26) it is also been confirmed in transfiguration
    of Jesus at (Mat:17:2). So now Jesus has been authorized to protect the woman (= new covenant). So woman adoring the sun means the woman = covenant is protected by Jesus himself by being with the anointed ones all the days until the conclusion of the system of things Mat: 28:20.

    So what about moon? Moon represents anointed ones who are in flesh. The anointed ones can be represented as moon because just as how though moon is mud still it reflects the light from Sun in the dark night sky. Similarly the anointed ones though they are in flesh (mud) but still reflect the teachings
    of Jesus in the spiritually dark world ruled by Satan. Therefore we can come to the conclusion that Sun mean Jesus and moon means anointed ones in flesh.

    Therefore whenever the scripture says example Mat: 24:29(also Mark: 13:24). Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, See after Jesus completing his ministry for 3 and 1/2 years, at Gethsemane garden, Jehovah’s (=Sun’s Ps:84:11) support on Jesus was removed and thus Jesus was caught and killed. Similarly immediately after the tribulation sun will be darkened means
    Jesus’ (=Sun in new setting) support on the anointed ones will be removed. What will happen if sun is not there? Moon will become dark that means if Jesus support is removed anointed ones will not be there to give truth that is what it means and the moon will not give its light. Some anointed ones who are actually
    having the privilege to go to heaven and shine like stars will lose their faith because of tribulation and they fall away from faith that is what it says that and the stars will fall from heaven,

    Again at Acts: 2:20 it further says. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood means:-

    The sun will be turned into darkness = Jesus’ support on anointed ones will be removed.

    Moon into blood means = Anointed ones will be killed (blood shed). The moon symbolically become blood on the day when Jesus was killed on 14th Nisan 33CE which was also a full moon day. That
    was what Joel also foretold at (Joel: 2:31)

    So as per Rev: 6:12 opening of sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, refers to same as in Acts:2:20 and Joel:2:31 which refers to Christ’s’ support being removed and anointed ones dying (their blood being shed). And some anointed ones who lose their faith on Jehovah and Jesus unable to bear the intense persecution during great tribulation and fall away from truth is like the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. So though the tribulation is unbearable that will cause even the anointed ones to lose faith (read Dan: 11:35) that is why Joel says at 2:32 and everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

    • Your analysis makes sense, except that the opening of the sixth seal impacts everyone, the kings, military commandeers, the rich and the poor –everyone.

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Thanks a lot I have put a mail for you

  • Bklyn Kevin

    For look! I am giving the command, And I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, Just as one shakes a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground. They will die by the sword, all the sinners of my people, Those who are saying, “The calamity will not come near us or reach us.
    Read more>Amos 9:1-15 God’s judgments inescapable. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/amos/9/#v30009009

  • Jamie Mac

    Hi All, How many of you feel you are ready to be tested.

    • Huldah

      Hi Jamie
      I’m ready to see Jehovah obliterate all of Satan’s lies in and outside his organization.
      I’m hoping that gratification will sustain me through some of the trials ahead.
      Right now the status quo is it’s own sort of torture.

    • Burt Reynolds

      You first….

      • Brian

        : )

      • Jamie Mac

        Typical English Gentleman

  • Francis Bencharles
    • Beverly kenyon

      Now I wonder why they would have that! Mmmm….interesting.?

  • Candice

    It’s falling apart out there and it’s falling apart in here!! Honestly, I read Kings commentary, and try so hard not to scroll down to the comments lately! Yet, Satan must have gotten the best of me because there I went and scrolled down! We all have to stop falling into Satans trap, discussion or commenting is different than attacking or simply put, arguing! I know for me, every time I have a bad time or deal with a mean person, I don’t get angry or want to have a dispute with what they say, it doesn’t make me sad anymore either, it actually builds my faith in Jehovah! It’s not about patience or tolerance, it’s about love, even showing love toward the evil! I don’t know, maybe none of this makes sense, but it pains me to read how these “discussions” go.

    • Daisy

      Piffffft

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