The Scene of this World is Changing

//The Scene of this World is Changing

Tuesday, July 11

Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

If you struggle with temptation to engage in sexual immorality, what can you do? Acknowledge your weakness.Pray to God for strength. Avoid situations that could lead to immorality. And when a temptation arises, reject it without delay. Jesus set a powerful example for us in resisting temptations. He was not fooled by Satan’s promises, nor did he have to take time to weigh the pros and cons. Rather, he immediately responded with the words: “It is written.”  Jesus knew God’s Word, and that made it possible for him to act quickly and quote scriptures in the face of temptation. To fight Satan and win, we must not allow ourselves to be tempted to engage in sexual immorality.

Commentary

One hundred years ago the world was a very different place. The traditional family existed as a father/husband who worked outside the home and a homemaker/mother raised the family’s children. Very few women worked outside the home.

Of course, there was sexual immorality back then, but it was not common, nor was it accepted as the norm. Pre-marital sex was considered shameful —not encouraged. Homosexuality was viewed as an abomination and those relative few who practiced it did not dare flaunt it in public for fear of reprisals and ridicule.

It was considered shameful for a woman to show her flesh in public. Even at the beach women were modestly attired in swimwear that was less revealing than the street clothes that women routinely wear now. Obviously, fashions in the Western world have changed dramatically over the past century, as have morals. What would have been considered vulgar and shockingly obscene a few generations before is now the hottest trend.

But fashions are merely a reflection of the values of a culture. The exhibition of tattooed flesh, the glorification of homosexuality, lesbianism and transgender freaks, is the end result of decades of spiritual neglect and cultural decay. What was once considered scandalous and taboo is now normal. Homosexuals, confined to the closet only a few years ago, now parade naked in the streets, celebrating sheer perversity –their gay pride. Indeed, as the inspired apostle seemingly foresaw, the scene of this world is changing.

While sociologists may have their explanations for the transformation of Society, it is noteworthy that the cultural decay, which began gradually, almost imperceptibly, much like the physical rot of a piece of wood, seems to have coincided with the appearance of the International Bible Students on the scene, especially after the First World War and the so-called Roaring 20’s.

Although the mass media’s promotion of pop culture is unquestionably responsible for influencing society to gradually accept more and more perversity and depravity, what is less apparent is that the media’s onslaught against Western civilization is a demonically-driven response to the relative success of Jehovah’s Witnesses. 

It is a sobering reality, that the unseen rulers of the world are the very same powerful angels who left their proper place in heaven and clothed themselves in flesh in order to have sex with beautiful women. The unnatural sexual union of materialized angels and fallen human flesh resulted in the incubation of a freakish race of giants called the Nephilim. The world was ruined in the sight of God as a result. As a consequence, Jehovah caused the great catastrophe known as Noah’s Flood. Although the ancient world perished as a result of the cataclysm, the angels did not. They were able to de-materialize and return to the spirit realm. However, God did not accept them back into his family of heavenly sons. Instead they were condemned to eternal death. It is their fatalism and fixation on sex that now permeates society.

As pay back to God for his having drowned their wives and sons, the demons are intent on corrupting the light-bearers if possible, knowing as they surely do that the terrible day of Jehovah’s anger is coming.

2017-07-14T08:38:54+00:00 July 11th, 2017|Commentary|346 Comments
  • Burt Reynolds

    Loved E-Watchman.TV. I didn’t know that existed! (And no advertisements either!) The dirge for America is really good. It’s true to say of the article that there have always been wars and immorality, but never has it been so open. The mark of this is not plain to see because it’s growth is hidden under its ‘normalisation’. Gay pride is normal; homosexuality is acceptable and no one may talk of its tragedy, but must greet it with approval lest they be labelled bigoted and discriminatory. Pornograhy has become termed as the right of all and ‘normal’, and fills the television programming… legitimatised by being screened after 9pm, with the real filth starting at 10. And it exposes everyone to it. Violence is normalised and thus wells up everywhere and the use of it finds legitimate arguement in a court of law as to its influence on the young. Thus we see it all as a part of life, as common as going to the shops. As I heard on the TV today from the police….’another stabbing, another day…’ and the news if full of it every day. It is not in the least uncommon on the local news for the entire programme to be made up of deaths: violent death, tragic death. I emailed the tv programme yesterday by chance and said they would save a lot of money by patronising the daily paper obituaries with their ‘news’ so that those who want, can read it and we can be spared it. One comes to see the truth of the scripture that unless Jehovah intervenes , no one will be saved. Perhaps the scripture refers to that, if we are not to be killed by the system, we will become part of it. I think we have all felt the pull of that if we are honest with ourselves.

    • Peaceful Waters

      “One comes to see the truth of the scripture that unless Jehovah intervenes , no one will be saved. Perhaps the scripture refers to that, if we are not to be killed by the system, we will become part of it.”

      I’ve been meditating a lot lately on that. Love how you put it. The more and more I find myself detaching from this system not just spiritually, but in every sense. The more apparent it becomes that everything in Satan’s system is designed to hurt us. The poisoning of our food, air, soil, media, education… the list is endless. My dependancy on Jehovah for guidance and sustenance becomes more dire. What a state we are in!

      The pull of “the dark side” is strong indeed. Difficult times hard to deal with, especially as a parent. It’s all impossible without Jehovah.

      • Burt Reynolds

        May the Force be with you!

      • Southern ShaSha

        Peaceful Waters, it’s unreal the title of Roberts article. He is speaking of events of one hundred years ago. I was born in the late 40’s, baptized in the 70’s. I’ve literally been able through the decades to see the degradation, small increments to where we are now. That is what caused me to search for something, a higher power so to speak. Something that brought answers to the chaos of this world we live in. Had children, which created an urgency in finding what may bring some sort of sense and meaning in their lives. My grandmother appeared in my life and the gift she so lovingly shared began having a great deal of importance, a dedicated, loyal servant of Jehovah. I sort of roved around with bits and pieces of knowledge of Jehovah. Was never able to be as organizational as was required by the society to be observed as an active witness. In and out never fully committing as I should. I however stuck around to learn the basic truths of the scriptures but had some sort of pushback on many teachings that just made no sense, I could read into it as interpretation but little proof. I guess my biggest negative was such a strong attitude that all others were excluded because they said so. Then rammed into “75” stay alive in 75 prediction. Had a disastrous effect on so many I was close to in the organization. Went back, tried again but failed disastrously. However, gratefully never lost sight of truth, always realizing Jehovah was there for me in constant. Up to today, finding Roberts site in which all my doubts regarding so many teachings became so very clear. Two years of nothing but searching for answers, finding a hope so much stronger than when my original journey started. I believe in my heart Jehovah NEVER gives up on us, it’s we who give up. I think what horrors are taking place today will undoubtebly be the push for many to see the truth of this old system and who is ruling and search, scratch and dig for good. We know there is but One who can right the wrong and lovingly open His arms to all mourning over the wickedness.
        The blessings by loving our Creator, loving all His ways and building faith in Him and recognizing that His Son was slaughtered in behalf of all those placing their hearts and faith in that arrangement.
        “Just a little while longer”.
        Peaceful Waters, isn’t this what keeps us all going?

        • The Raven

          “I believe in my heart Jehovah NEVER gives up on us, it’s we who give up.”

          And that is the truth!

        • Peaceful Waters

          Through all of the degradation in our lives, I can say that I truly feel alive and free thanks to Jehovah and Jesus. It is quite a blessing to see the silver lining in all the dark storm clouds. I too believe wholeheartedly that He never gives up on us, but rather it is a choice on our part to leave him. I shudder at where I would be today without Jehovah in my life and am so grateful for the truth’s being clarified here. I remember when I was awakening about the organization, feeling so lost, crying on my knees in prayer, begging Jehovah “please don’t let me go, show me the way”. I have felt Jehovah’s mighty hand, His mercy, patience, compassion, love. You are absolutely right, it is what keeps us all going!

          • Joseph

            Ditto!

  • SkinnyAndShort

    I struggled for a while with being bi-sexual when i was younger. It
    wasn’t a phase it was real attraction to other men and sexual thoughts.
    What got me out of this feeling and thought was Jehovah, I knew it was
    wrong and I hated the thought of sinning in such a gross way. I broke
    free of the feelings and thoughts of homosexuality with the help of
    Jehovah and his son Jesus with prayer and the love of the truth.

    As of now, my feelings towards the whole gay/lesbian/transgender and all that, it sickens me, and when I speak my mind(in a nice respectful way)of the subject, I’m considered the outsider and hater.

    • The Raven

      You stepped back and took a look at the bigger picture and saw these things for what they really were. Don’t be surprised at the reactions of those who are still immersed in that culture. The same goes for folks who were also part of military or government organizations, institutions or movements which really served to exploit them more than anything else. It’s the devil’s way of wasting us in wrongful pursuits. Especially those of the flesh. Is it any wonder most folks give in to immorality in this world? You took a big step because you came to a higher understanding of Jehovah’s ways and heart. That has manifested itself in your life. I pray that you will continue to stay on the path and learn about all the wonderful things He has in store for us. I know this is difficult but you know who wins after all is said and done.

      • SkinnyAndShort

        Friends? lol I have hardly any friends anyway, but the few I have don’t care, some agree with me even. Only one that gets angry with my belief about this subject would be one of my sisters. She is very let all people be who they are and love who they want, she’s also Agnostic in belief.

        • The Raven

          I’m glad you do have folks around you that can agree or at the very least don’t berate you for it. That helps. My experience with gays was mainly back in the seventies when things were still pretty quiet. Most despised me for the fact that I did not approve of their lifestyles and explained why. But there were a few who knew I would always be honest with everyone and they valued that even more than they did the “friendship” of folks who would pander to them and then talk behind their backs.
          Trying to do what’s right and maintaining our integrity in these days isn’t easy. But there are still people in this world who accept and appreciate people like you who are trying to do what’s right in Jehovah’s eyes.

        • The Raven

          As far as your sister is concerned a very large segment of society have been so conditioned to accept these things they view anyone who disagrees as a narrow minded puritan. It is difficult for folks to admit they are sinning before God so they choose to deny there is one or demur on the subject. Not surprising.

          • Southern ShaSha

            I agree Raven with everything you have stated. And as you say many do deny Jehovahs very existence, others use scripture to approve of their own behavior. Pick and choose scripture that expresses Gods ultimate forgiveness of sin and the sacrifice Christ Jesus made for all mankind, but…………fully ignore the scriptures that condemn willful behaviors. Deliberate sin versus our sinful nature due to inherited sin are separate issues. The blessing in this forgiveness is that we are given an opportunity to change our course. All of us must work on our sinful ways and desires each and every day. When we come to the realization we are living in opposition to what HE commands of us this is the blessing of making a turn around. I appreciate as well Jehovahs justice in sin, causes us to not be judgemental of another’s sin, as our own is no less. Regardless of how we may measure sin our Heavenly Father sees past it all if we are willing to make the necessary changes to become approved in His eyes. By His righteousness and standards for sure we will need that thousand years to measure up! But try we must today and each day to work on improving. Prayer, faith and appreciation for this opportunity, His arrangement, gives us hope!

            • The Raven

              Very nice!
              I think Paul put this pretty well when he told us no matter what we do we sin. I keep that in mind with all things. Another scripture I like is this one:
              Luke 18:9-14
              9 He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’+ 13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward but kept beating his chest, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me,* a sinner.’+ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee.+ Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”+

            • Southern ShaSha

              Thank you for the scriptures, I’ve always loved this. Perfect example as to why we should not think to highly of ones self.

  • Srecko Sostar

    Hi people! 🙂 I’m not too open to talking, about sex, especially. But in this way and place I have the freedom to express my thoughts and ideas, theory :))).

    Where does human sexuality come from, and all that details that forming feelings and leads to intimacy?

    Some say that god and angels do not have sex. They are neither male nor female. But obviously all these characteristics that exist in spiritual beings are in some way and measure, quantity, quality existing in humans also, especially if we agree in conclusion that God created the first people in their own form. And since he created male and female (I talk only about humans not animals) he gave them the attributes that are in God himself, and so here are the intellectual and emotional characteristics associated with sexuality, eroticism in every human.

    But it is also interesting, it is strange in some way, that God and angels are represented in the Bible only in the form of men. (Father, son, sons of God) There is no mention of a woman’s side that probably must exist in God (because he created human, male and female, created them according to own attributes).

    It is also interesting that angels wanted to be men, not women, when they came to earth in Noah’s days. Does this mean that they as men can enjoyed in sex more than if they were turned into women? :))) Or is a matter of power and patriarchal mentality of those days? And this days too:))))

    On other side WT doctrine about 144000 class and their role in kingdom and ruling over humans is in idea that they will, can be able to understand more human nature and be more helping in process that mankind get to perfectly state, because they (as priests and kings) been humans before also, male and female, and by that they can show more understanding for imperfect humans. If that is correct, 144000 must have male and female attributes as they had before, as imperfect human while lived on Earth before were been resurrected to heaven, to be able to show compassion and helping people. If so, how they can do that if they will, are be sexless, like angels?? How can such male King/Priest (imagine brother Lett or Moriss or some other GB members that you loking on JW TV how from heaven helping you or someone else on earth) would understand female intimacy, or body process or…. at all if would stay in Body as Male Priest/King :))))
    Can you imagine how some anointed future king/priest brothers from JW TV would help you or your son or your daughter after you have/get knowledge and witnessed how they acting in this real time on their public TV evangelism show? How they throw bread (human) in garbage, or told that child molestation is apostate lies??

    • The Raven

      Demons appeared as male and female as recorded throughout history and archaeology proves that. As for the 144,000 knowing about human sexuality; they have the mind of God, the creator who knows all things. I would guess they too will know about us.

      • Srecko Sostar

        hi Raven, does exist some bible report about fallen angels, demons who transformed himself to women? thanks!

        • The Raven

          Not in scripture. But scripture only spoke of specific incidents. They all appeared as men as did the angels when they were sent to speak on Jehovah’s behalf because men have authority. But there is much secular evidence.
          The archaeological record shows that many ancient civilizations honored and feared female demons/gods. They also appeared as animals as well. What ever suited their purposes at the time. A quick search on google brings up some from all over the world.
          Ancient Egyptian legends about their gods as an example of how demons of all sorts were worshiped.

          • Srecko Sostar

            thanks Raven! very interesting. I also thought, when you mentioned Nephilims, that there is only male offspring, mentioned in bible, as product between angels and women, but no mention of “female Nephilim”, why? In so many sexual intercourse that angels have with so many women and no single girl was born??? Strange!

            • The Raven

              Yes, I know. It’s odd. But they were trying to produce their own families. Their own seed. Women were just the incubators for them. Looking through many of the accounts from mythological legends we see all sorts of freaks. Ancient depictions of horrific animals and monsters with entire cultures of worship built around them makes me wonder about the extent of the demon’s corruption of creation. The scripture says the earth was filled with violence. I think much of the archaeological record found so far shows that. There’s no telling what walked, crawled, flew and swam on this earth at one time.

            • Srecko Sostar

              yeah Raven, and giants (and other freaks) also existed in post flood time according to some bible reports, so if only faithful Noah and his family survived flood, new appearance of “freaks” must be with new demons activity and contacts with human after Flood. So, because that evidence i am thinking how fallen angels are able to materialised themselves in all times until today. Thinking that WT explanation on that matter is err.
              If those angels in Noah days losing ability to materialized to human flesh as kind of Gods sentence/punishment to them is correct, that doesn’t mean that other angels would not take a chance and doing the same.

            • The Raven

              They can’t materialize anymore. They can’t breed with humans anymore. The accounts post flood may simply have been caused by a giantism gene, which exists to this day similar to dwarfism and other human abnormalities. Not from demonic sources so to speak.

            • The Raven

              To add to this since Adam and Eve sinned, we are all in the state of degeneration and death. Our lifespans have not been anywhere near those who lived before the flood. Until the matter of sovereignty is set right and this system ends, we remain in that state. When that happens, it will be wonderful to know we no longer have an expiration date.

        • The Raven

          I might add that a huge amount of these legends appear to be from before the deluge. Descriptions from artifacts show that there were numerous deities and many were female. Some may have been Nephilim and some may have been the demons themselves possessing people. Not always “materializing”. The descriptions of taking on flesh or putting on flesh are interesting. That’s where I wonder about what they actually did. But in essence we know that they corrupted the earth to the point where it needed to be wiped clean.

          • There is a difference in materializing flesh, as both righteous and disobedient angels did in times past, and causing a phenomenon known as an apparition. Since the Flood the disobedient angels have been put in chains, making it impossible for the to materialize again. But, they can create all manner of apparitions, appearing humanlike, or UFOs, whatever.

            • The Raven

              Thank God they can’t do that anymore!

            • Marisa Gomez

              Dear brother,,,,what is the reason Jesus commanded his disciples to be baptized in the name of Father, Son and holy spirit,,,( Matthew 28:19-20 ),however they didn’t do so. We can read they baptized only in the name of Jesus… ( Acts 10:48 , 19:4-5 , 2:36 , etc.).

              Some bibles like KADOSH mentions in Mattew 28:19-20 in this way: “Go therefore and make TALMIDIN (disciples) of people of all the nations, giving they inmersion in my name”.
              EL CODIGO REAL (another bible in spanish) mentions in the same vs: ” id con urgencia y hacedme tantos talmidin (discipulos) como podais entre todas las naciones”.

              There are other bibles similar.
              Can you Pleasse explain me the reason? What is the right translation.
              Thanks for you time

            • It does not seem as though the apostles understood Jesus to literally mean they were to recite the phrase “Father, Son and holy spirit” at every baptism, like pronouncing some magic formula. Likely they understood that baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and spirit meant they were baptize in the authority of God and Christ and the holy spirit that operated among them.

            • Marisa Gomez

              Thank you,,,very much,,,,Jehovah bless you.

            • The Raven

              This is just a thought I had on this subject but Is there any scriptural proof that the angels had a bigger agenda when they came to earth? They knew of Jehovah’s promised seed… could a lot of this also have been an attempt to frustrate those plans by flooding human DNA with freaks? Or maybe even produce a seed of their own to destroy God’s? I know the fallen all became the devil’s seed that will eventually be abyssed and judged by Christ but looking at these accounts I wonder.

            • Richard Long

              Or, all of the above?

            • The Raven

              I remember hearing these things a long time ago and wonder if there was scriptural basis for this, still.

            • Richard Long

              I’m watching for his answer, too! I know plenty of what is being said and written on the matter “out there”, and have even formed plenty of my own assumptions, which are all probably true and equally non-relevant! lol

            • The Raven

              I don’t think they are irrelevant. I am interested in knowing if there’s more to their schemes.

            • Richard Long

              Of course. I meant irrelevant for salvation but was especially applying irrelevance to MY ASSUMPTIONS. lol. By all means, know your enemy so you can guard against him.

            • The Raven

              You know the more I think about this the more I wonder what the angels thought about Noah’s warnings. He preached for a very long time and surely they knew he was building a structure in anticipation of the event. They either miscalculated His response to their rebellion or they knew it was coming and didn’t care.

            • Richard Long

              the materialized angels, right? Yeah, something like 60-100 years Noah preached while constructing the ark, I think I remember reading.

              I’m going to go with knew it was coming and cared, but not enough to stop the party, because they knew they could escape and plot revenge. I think maybe the notion of “sticking it to the old man” was more attractive than any effort to save the humans and hybrids they supposedly so dearly loved through repentance.

              Alternatively, since we might rightly consider all the events recorded in the genesis account as literally the first time ever, there may be much understanding to be gained from the perspective that in relation to Jehovah, all the angels are essentially inexperienced young persons testing boundaries and did, in fact, miscalculate His response.

              And again, maybe both, as these free agents did not necessarily think, feel, or act in unison. Not like they all booked the same “earth rebellion encounter” tour bus, right?

              Really thought provoking comment. Thanks for “poking” me with it.

            • The Raven

              I see what you’re saying. I think they knew and didn’t care. How much love could they possibly have had for Jehovah or humans considering what they did? They already knew what the devil did and what his punishment was and they came down here and made matters even worse. They knew about the original lie and the consequences it wrought.

            • Richard Long

              I tend to agree. How many times has one found themselves in deep enough to still get out, but not without severe consequence, and chosen instead to go “all in”?

              All of this lends weight to my thinking in rejection of the notion that we are not alone in the physical universe. Star Trek, Star Wars, Sci-Fi in general, can be great fun but at it’s heart is nonsense and blasphemous wishful thinking by the enemies of truth. Definitely one of the indulgences I’ll have to answer Jehovah for anyway.

            • The Raven

              Good points. IMO Jehovah dealt with them correctly after what they did. They were after all perfect beings. Humanity was already corrupted when they arrived. They knew full well what they were doing and came here to further use and abuse creation to the point of Jehovah’s decision to destroy it all, save a few people and animals. That’s pretty damn bad. The devil paved the road for them after paradise was lost because of his lie and they plowed it to it’s end to satisfy their own depraved wants for flesh and adoration as gods.

            • Richard Long

              WE LOVE DISQUS!!!!!!!!!

            • The Raven

              hahaha! My mantra!

            • The Raven

              I read quite a bit of sci fi back in the day and Ray Bradbury was one of my favorite writers. I never believed in aliens and after reading Jane’s magazine I realized many of the craft people were seeing over Dreamland and Groom lake were military projects and not ufos from outer space. I still liked the sci fi stories and many of them had moral lessons but I never saw them as any more than entertainment.

            • Richard Long

              Or demon produced apparition courtesy of the jailed rebellious angels we have been discussing, as Robert mentioned a few days ago. And, once again, likely all of the above.
              I think you prove the point. This stuff is mind candy for a mature intellect, potentially poison for the naive, as a person must possess the ability to keep it compartmentalized, IMO. Heinlein and Asimov are also favorites of mine.

            • The Raven

              I agree. I’ve run into a few folks in my lifetime who confused these things but for the most part saw it as Hollywood fluff.

            • Richard Long

              I’m not Robert, but practically speaking, by claiming every female they could get their hands on, these materialized angels were depriving human men of wives and would logically lead to a situation where humans were bred out of existence. This was compounded by the murderous rampages of the Nephilim. I can’t cite scripture, but some postulate the Nephilim may have used their human victims for food. It’s likely Jehovah simply HAD to step in to prevent human extinction.

            • The Raven

              I’ve read about that as well, but there is also a follow up question I asked Robert about what the angels actually knew and didn’t know at the time. They are not able to understand certain matters so I asked if that was always the case or did Jehovah change that after the flood.

        • The Raven

          This is how God sees this:
          Galations 3:28
          There is neither Jew nor Greek,+ there is neither slave nor freeman,+ there is neither male nor female;+ for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Humans are a creation of Jehovah, as are the Angels. It may well be a mistake to equate an organism with a spirit. The senses that we have in respect to procreation and emotion are perculiar to mankind, though not unrecognised by the spiritual beings. The bible says that some Angels found women attractive, beautiful, though their feelings for them were unnatural. All of Jehovah’s creation appreciate the beauty of jehovahs work. If those Angels motives were pure, then why were they punished for such? It was an unnatural perversion, in much the same way, one might presume, as homosexuality is. And Jehovah abores unnatural relationships against his will. This does not mean of course that Jehovah and the Angels, do not understand human nature, but clearly there is a reason as you state, why earthly people have been chosen to rule as kings. And suffering trial as a human, was the major issue for Christ in all respects, loosely put.

      Also, sex is not love. It is a facet of love, as described by the bible, secondary to the love of another human. Leaving ones mother to be with another is the primary, in other words to develop ones life before Jehovah as a family in your own right. Jehovah will know the full workings of the human mind, as does Christ, as will the annointed. I would imagine the Angels would too, to a degree, having never been human. They will see the magnificience of our creation and appreciate it. i appreciate it too, but would it be natural to have such feelings for other life forms created by Jehovah? Clearly not. Thus it would be so for Angels also. And as for the watchtower, you have to ask would anyone practicing perversions be in the new kingdom.

  • Joseph

    You can definitely point a finger at this guy….
    Alfred Charles Kinsey (/ˈkɪnzi/; June 23, 1894 – August 25, 1956) was an American biologist, professor of entomology and zoology, and sexologist who in 1947 founded the Institute for Sex Research at Indiana University,[1] now known as the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction. He is best known for writing Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953), also known as the Kinsey Reports, as well as the Kinsey scale. Kinsey’s research on human sexuality, foundational to the field of sexology, provoked controversy in the 1940s and 1950s. His work has influenced social and cultural values in the United States, as well as internationally.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Ha ha, I have first editions of his work! It’s not exactly inspiring. It’s largely irrelevant in these days, but I could imagine some back in those days being outraged, simply because it was not talked about. There is a far more interesting study printed on the analysis of the sex lives of the savage, circa 1867, referring to African tribes people. Further, another ‘study’, more a comment really, written by Thomas Fuller in his Church History 1649, points out the horrors of goings on in the dormitories of monasteries at that time. In the early 1600s, there was another study done on a sect at that time…I think it was 1620ish, on a quite expansive group, called if I recall correctly, Adamists, after Adam of course. They all attended church ‘in the natural state’, and their rules and regulations are not repeatable here. However, the point being that it’s not so much the behaviour that has changed, that goes back beyond sodom and was probably aggravated by the Nephalim et al, but that it is now acceptable and ‘normal’ for everyone, should they choose to take part. Mind you, the Greeks and Romans found homosexuality quite the norm on a societal level, even back before Christ, as the lives of gladiators attest to. Kinsey really just unveiled it, but the Victorians were far, far worse than the early American settlers knew how to be. Of course you are right in that after Kinsey took the cork out of the bottle, it started the ball rolling, but if anything, political correctness has superceeded all in effectively sanctifying these writings into the population by making it a criminal offence, or ‘bad practice’ as was and still is the case in sociological circles, and thus government, to oppose it! Of course, political correctness hides it’s venom behind obvious targets like equal rights for disabled people and which of course is noble, but it’s really just a facade to promote the very things mentioned in Roberts article. Satanic subtlety! (And before you all think I collect these books, I don’t! They are just part of my library that goes back to 1515. My library just records mankind in many subjects from cookery to astronomy. One comes to understand the scripture that there is nothing new under the sun).

    • Peaceful Waters

      Wow, now I see where it comes from. In grade 4 they were teaching that masturbation, homosexuality etc. are normal and healthy. By grade 8 my son was taught more about birth control, gender equality and sexuality, and how to put on condoms, then he was basic writing and math skills. So wrong.

      • Joseph

        https://youtu.be/4fj6Qamu0JY

        Hopefully this system will end soon, real soon!

        • Burt Reynolds

          Moral standards are not an issue nowadays, and education is based on how to safely live your life without them….mainly because of the cost of ill health to the nation. No one sees the good in developing the preventive measures of moral and mental standards, only the outcome of not having any!

    • Richard Long

      This Tara person really is dangerous, isn’t it?

      • Joseph

        No, She’s harmless and quite nice. And really loves Jehovah!!

        • Richard Long

          ok, JS… I’m trusting you…

          • Daisy

            Word in your ear….don’t trust Js as I have inside intelligence that she’s having secret talks with Bok Choy Soup of North Korea on Friday.
            Dangerous! And I shouldn’t be laughing at 1.44am…

            • Richard Long

              Daisy, my love, why do you do this to me???? lol

              Laugh with me anytime you feel like it! Laugh AT me if you must! Good medicine!

            • Joseph

              It’s totally acceptable for you to be cautious, you’ve been down this road before . D & B are hilarious !!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Intriguing! Lettuce see what becomes of these stalks. Perhaps you could tell us tomato, but don’t make a meal out of it. I didn’t know JS had a beef with Bok Choy Soop, but it’s good to meat with the big cheese to trifle over matters.

          • The Raven

            She seems very sincere and willing to listen and learn. Burt has a deeper understanding of some of these matters and decades of experience in them than I. I am enjoying their discussion on this. I am more of a nuts and bolts kind of person so I tend to be more direct. Especially with belligerent folks. She is not that way at all and that’s refreshing to see. It’s nice to see the give and take between amicable folks who can relate to the same issues in a more detailed and considerate way.

            • Richard Long

              Twenty hour later do you still hold the opinion expressed in the first sentence?

              I’m just trying to get me some reality check.

            • The Raven

              Only in part since this discussion has progressed. She is sincere and willing to talk, but not willing to face the truth about this. There is always great difficulty in admitting sin and some folks will deny something is a sin to to justify their views. After reading this both you and Burt made the case for scripture being clear on the matter. Homosexuality is wrong. Bottom line. And I’m not going to plumb the depths of what’s NOT there to find a way to justify homosexuality. Lately that’s what a number of folks have been attempting.
              Quote Burt:
              “Why bother with the bible if we are to fit our own will to it rather than abide by it?”

            • Richard Long

              I’m not interested in persecuting Tara, but I am acutely interested in protecting my own faith. You’re not a “go see what happened then” guy, but I am, and the backstory to this week’s happenings has volumes of profundity in relation to our host. This place contains all the support I have for now, so its a foregone conclusion I’m going to act in that interest. Time for me to do more listening and less speaking, I think.

            • The Raven

              I know you’re not out to get anyone. lol. The backstory? I am not sure what you mean by that or what you mean by a “go see what happened guy”.
              To be honest Richard, I know there is more going on in this site behind the scenes than publicly commented on and I cannot answer to what I do not know about. I support what you’ve said and how you’ve said it as well as Burt in this matter who was even more direct than you in a good deal of his comments.
              Don’t step back because of what others think about this. I always appreciate what you have to say.

            • Richard Long

              I meant it is your custom to deal with what you are looking at on the page today without prejudice of what may have happened before your arrival here. You are not a go back and see what happened in the past type of guy. This is not your style or approach. I am the opposite and envy the confidence you project in your willingness and ability to take issues as they come I feel a need to not only address the issue immediately at hand, but also understand how and why it came to me in the condition it is in. For better or worse, that’s the way I process. Make better sense now?

              I appreciate your support and continue to work at the improvement of my approach for better outcomes. Part of that is surveying the impact zone, gauging effect, and making amends where warranted. Having someone who will say “Yeah, that one really blew up in your face, didn’t it?” is of great value. Thank you.

            • The Raven

              Sure, man.

            • Thinking

              Hey Brother..”..I have understood everything you have been trying to say …and I back you..
              Hello Tara/anon ….how are you….I do remember you sis as Anon waaay back on RKs original forum….
              I’m so very very sorry you have had such emotional trauma that you really have been to hell and back..I hear your pain..last as the old saying goes..

              There for the grace of God I go ….or one of my own boys could have gone..
              I get your pain and decision to transition ..and I’m sure we have a number of brothers and sisters who have done that.
              In fact some time ago I read a article on it…from the society…
              No one here is judging you Tara….nor in anyway condemning such a situation…absolutley not…nor is Richard.
              I’m sure if we were all at the KH..all here would support you as a sister…
              Yet ..where we would draw the line..and this is what Richard is trying to do..is you twisting the scriptures to eleviate your own conscience and path way in life..
              I don’t know if you are in a same sex marriage…but your argument as Burt and Richard has bought out just is not scriptural…and no way can you make it scriptural…
              I’m afraid no amount of Love can cover what is clearly forbidden ….
              Women with woman and man with man..just is forbidden ….

              I’m not sure if a man who has transitioned into a woman and then married a man fits that …And perhaps this is what you are saying..
              The article I read a knowledges this scenario ..and basically said it’s really up to Jehovah ….that woman( who was born a man but had a sex change ) was accepted into the cong as a woman…who had already married a man.
              She was accepted as a married woman…perhaps this is what you are trying to state in some part of your argument…

              Yet in another part of your back story and this is what Richard is pointing to..you are painting a very wrong and incorrect picture….a free for all..as long as there is love…
              Not so Tara…the fallen angels loved their children very much I do beleive…the nephilim…and mourned their deaths at the flood…
              Was their unnatural love okay with Jehovah…
              He has shown there is clear limitations we must stick to…

              There are others who were born with this cruel cruel affliction as you..and they serve Jehovah…and it IS their personal decision and rightfully so as to have a sex change…no one can judge that Tara…but they in turn cannot twist scriptures and make it sound like Jehovah is saying something that he is not…and that is what you are doing ….hence Richards objections …..and he’s right….
              All the best to you Tara..and I truly hate the pain you have been thru..and no doubt still are going thru…this world truly is a cruel place to live in…and you have had a even cruller blow than many others…

        • Richard Long

          Ok, let me re-calibrate. Was Francis dangerous in your opinion?

          • Thinking

            Anyone who deliberately tries to draw ones away from Jehovah’s House or sow seeds of doubt as to it even being Jehovah’s House is dangerous. ..so yes…Frances / frank or whoever …was and is dangerous to Jehovah’s sheep …

            • Richard Long

              Thinking, you know that I know that. lol

            • Thinking

              Yes I know you know that…:)

            • Joseph

              Amen!

            • Dr. Moreau

              the elders use that casting “seeds of doubt” phrase against us who know the truth try and voice it with honest reason to them

            • Thinking

              True they do do that..but that’s why we need to reason in such a way to show we never ever doubt it is Gods house…right from the start…it often boils down to how ..we… Approach and conduct such conversations…I always put my foot in my mouth at the start…and bought calamity down on my head…I was new and raw and hurt…but I soon learnt to be discreet..and to take more care of my fellow brothers so as not to stumble them..just because I suddenly saw something that they didn’t…

            • Dr. Moreau

              i agree but it doesnt matter man. i do that also. they’ll still pull that type of crap on ya. even Robert has had several failed Approach attempts. its really their attitude in listening besides our approach. the trick is trying to get them to listen rather then try to convince them. if they heard well then they’ll remember later and have something to think about

            • Thinking

              Well we are still trying brother ….that’s the main thing…that and faith will pull us thru ….I have total faith that not one single person will die at Armageddon that was savable. ….not one…if They need to know what we do then Jehovah will see to it….

          • The Raven

            This discussion has taken some very interesting turns. I can see exactly why you ask that question and it’s a good one.

          • Joseph

            Yes

            • Richard Long

              Would you consider me needing re-calibration if I told you Tara’s words (the sum total of her several years of commentary on Disqus) leave the same impression on my spirit as Francis did?

            • Joseph

              What would Jesus Do?
              I have great compassion for Tera

            • Richard Long

              I am also quite sympathetic to her and the circumstances of her life as I understand them from her narratives. Obviously I am not anywhere near ready to accept what she has been saying on scriptural matters, but wholeheartedly endorse a course of the widest expressions of compassion and mercy. I believe Jesus would in the most loving way conceivable roundly correct her. I have no authority do so, and therefore must make approach with caution, with a mind toward neither stumbling nor being stumbled. It costs me nothing and benefits me greatly to know her mind, I think.

  • The Raven

    Thanks, Robert. Once again a very good description and explanation of the mess we have to navigate. It helps to understand that there is a whole lot more going on in dark corners than we’re aware of.

  • The Raven

    It’s not just the outright lies and immorality we are bombarded by daily. It’s the arrogant intellectual approach to this and relegating people of integrity to archaic and dull minded ways that is so damaging. In other words, if you are not “progressive and tolerant” you’re a backwards idiot. That’s what I find really galling about these folks. The pressure to conform is significant. The devil has gotten a lot more devious with a generation that considers itself so much more intelligent than their predecessors.

    • Burt Reynolds

      What you say is in every walk of life. In my employment, I asked a dementia nursing home manager if her staff spoke English well enough for people with dementia to understand them. ( A large proportion of care staff here are immigrants from Poland, Africa, and India and they do not have to speak even basic English to settle in this country but are employed by nursing agencies on low wages). For asking this question, I was ‘disciplined’ by a lesbian manager for equality ( being a lesbian is nearly always a requirement for the post it seems), who subsequently told my manager, that my anti discriminatory thinking was ‘old fashioned.’ I was quiet pleased at that label, yet questioning if a nurse can communicate with her language stricken patient, was deemed poor practice. This perversity of values inveigles every area of life now it seems.

      • The Raven

        That’s so bad. I’ve seen that here as well. Some of the most incompetent people are promoted simply because they are part of that minority. I witnessed an incident one night at the factory I worked at part time when a lesbian confronted a member of a team and picked a fight with him for no reason. They were both being considered for promotion to team leader and she resorted to dirty tactics to win. He was accused of starting the fight and calling her names, which was not true. I overheard the entire conversation. When they threatened to fire him over it I stepped up. They backed off but still gave her the lead position. She knew nothing about the job and they demanded he teach her. He refused. They moved him to another team. That sent a clear message to everyone else. It doesn’t matter how hard you work or what you know, they will promote these people over you every time. I didn’t last long in that place, needless to say.

        • I happen to be transgendered, I also serve Jehovah. I’ve worked really hard to get to where I’m at…namely, just keeping my head above water. Despite struggling financially, Jehovah has never abandoned me. I’ve always had what I need to get by, and sometimes that’s through charity. The problem here isn’t tolerance…actually it’s quite the opposite…intolerance for Jehovah is the real issue. And I don’t blame my bosses for being passed over for promotion. Rather, i blame the one who controls this system…Satan. I don’t look down on people who call me a “backwards idiot,” which happens quite often. Rather, I try to cultivate love for those who hate me as Jesus commanded and continue to try and live my life as an example and look for opportunities to preach, just as Jesus commanded, not in a condescending manner, but to preach from a place of love. Another reason i don’t look down on those who call me a “backwards idiot,” is because I am. And so is everyone now living. Everyone is imperfect, and people get offended when that’s pointed out to them. I can understand that from people in the world, but I will never understand it when a servant of Jehovah gets incensed at having the fact that they have flaws pointed out to them. The real problem in this story is not the fact that the team member was a lesbian, but it was her sense of entitlement. That’s the real issue in the world today…everything is about “me.” And we know where that attitude comes from. It’s been on display for centuries as an example to the rest of the world by the king of the north. The rich elite who have used devious tactics to undercut those who are in need is shameless. It’s also becoming pervasive in the world at large, and we have the world’s demonic leaders to thank for that. It’s not surprising, because such self-centered attitudes stem from the true original sin…the one that led to all other sins…pride.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Hello again Tara, actually in reference to Ravens story above it is very much so that the issue is one of lesbianism. If the matter was simply a sexual proclivity, you might be right, but scripturally even then, disagreeably so. What Raven was referring to was the culture that supports these issues. No one dare object because of the hive concept where it is impossible to be the odd one out. Just as people with Down’s syndrome were ( and still largely are) or with mental illness, where the upper classes used to visit the asylums for entertainment, or when the disfigured were paraded at circuses. No one wants to be on the outside, unless they have a holier than though basis for being so and to do that, you need the authority of knowledge to justify it, a cause worth dying for that is worthy. Homosexuality and other such issues don’t come close.

            The sexualised groups wish to be considered as part of the crowd, accepted as equal. Why are they unequal to begin with if its normal? Heterosexuals never were unequal to each other. How can love be unequal. Well, according to society it is! It is, when looked at from a social aspect because it is in opposition to the natural law of nature. What is that natural nature? Reproduction in a safe environment where the two halves of human nature provide an holistic and balanced nurturing abode. This is why homosexuals will always be sailing against the tide of opinion, because they deny what is deemed natural by Jehovah. The only equality homosexuals will ever have is with those who agree with their sexual proclivities and approve of them, or those that are too scared to deny them their needs. It is this point you need to take note of. You will never have the approval of the norm, not because the norm cannot absorb it, as they do, or tolerate it to be exact, but because, they cannot feel it, cannot see it, cannot empathise with or sense it, because it does not exist for them. Can a colour blind person see red? The fact is that what homosexuals are seeking, is not integration, but approval.

            It is not correct to equate the practice of homosexuality with the facets of heterosexuality. The two have no relation to each other. How can they? If they did, neither would exist. Neither can homosexuality be related to the norm of things, because it would be dependant of heterosexuality for its existence, as stated by the sister above. What you refer to, if it actually does exist as a facet of humanity, can only be one of two things. The first being a choice, the second being an affliction. I say affliction because there is room to accept that there may be a chemical makeup that allows for such, as with gender ‘assignment’. This does not normalise homosexuality, any more than an affliction normalises the afflicted. If you’re not sure about that, then ask the physically afflicted! An ‘assignment’ is not a license to behaviour, any more that a criminal tendancy is an excuse to rob or assault. Even then, there is more evidence to suggest that transgender has more basis in sociology than it does in genetic makeup and the moreso that gender alignment (not assignment) is a common issue for a child and natural in growing up….but even then, more in a behavioural way, and rarely sexualised if you discount ‘exploring’ that children do in innocence. Also you can only be assigned by agreement. It is not an experience. This is what was done with hermaphrodites and still is. They are assigned their sex due to the predominant features, not the predominant mind. As last time, your arguements about offering more than Jesus could and preaching is something best left alone until you have squared yourself with Jehovah honestly. It really does not do you justice to blame the rich and everyone else to justify your own decisions so that you can dignify your example as you put it.

            • So, it’s not about the lesbianism in itself, as in your first statement, but in your supporting arguments, you hit the target…that it’s about a culture which is actually intolerant of differing opinions. I agree with Raven’s response to my post, that NO ONE deserves to be treated unfairly. This goes for the right and the left. Both sides are guilty of abusing their positions to get ahead at the cost of people on the opposite side. The extreme left and the extreme right accuse each other if exactly the same things that they do themselves. That’s why it’s important to be politically neutral, and, as a Christian, reach out to BOTH sides with love and compassion. We don’t have the luxury of reading peoples hearts, therefore, unlike God who can can read hearts and see whether potential exists in a person or not to develop a love of the truth, we in the other hand must suspend such judgements and give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt. Both sides of the system are corrupt because the system itself is under the control of a corrupt individual. It’s our job as Christians to rise above the vitriol and hate and look to others as someone who could potentially be won over with love, rather than as our enemy…the former is the mindset of someone with live in their heart, the latter is the mindset of the wicked.

            • Burt Reynolds

              No. It is not about the superficial wrangling of people’s discriminatory thinking or that they do, or more strictly some may do, the same things that they accuse others of. We all do that at some point in our lives and reap the various consequences. The social effects are real, yes, I can agree on that because we are all part of this system in some degree, due to sin. What you are discussing it seems, is that love conquers all, forgives all and touches all. That we must not judge. Well, love is not all encompassing. It does not encompass sinning against Jehovah’s law. Jesus did not suggest that accepting wrongdoing in a loving way was good practice, or that it should continue when made aware of the consequences, or that choosing to sin for a personal belief, somehow sanctified that sin. An example would be open marriages welcoming any sexual Union under the guise of consent. Consent does not legitimise the action.

              Love is also jealous, exclusive and is exacting in its standards. The singular reason why love cannot be all things to all people, be available to all proclivities and interpretation, deviancy, excess, or without limitation or boundaries is because the standard is not ours and neither is its application. It is Jehovah’s. We are led into the experience of love through the way we are made in the image of Jehovah, not in the way we are born. We have great governance over the way we feel the values of love, but that does not change the essence of love. Ask anyone that has been betrayed by another against those values. Love is without doubt the deepest, most pure reflection of Jehovah. It is spotless, clean, untouched, surreal in its purity. How can homosexuality be a reflection of that love when the creator of love says clearly that it is not. The statement is not open to arguement in the scripture. It is not open to interpretation, excuse, what other people think, personal standards of acceptance or personal understanding of equality. It is spiritual in its essence, and gloriously emotive in its outworking. It is holy. One does not go into the cesspit of iniquity to preach love, one invites the other to come out, to taste and see the love of Jehovah because love cannot be experienced within deliberate sin in the ultimate end of things. It is difficult enough for those that have a relationship with Jehovah as shown by the prophets and disciples.. This being the case, it is wise to accept that fact and reach out for Jehovah’s standard before it passes you by.

            • Actually, love is all encompassing. To say otherwise is to suggest that either 1 the ultimate motivation for Jesus’ sacrifice was something other than love, or 2 that Jesus sacrifice has no power to cover over sins. I’m not going to get into a debate about what the Bible does and does not say because I’ve addressed that ad nauseum already. The only thing that will not survive into the new world is those without love. To obey God’s law and to have love (real love expressed through action and word) are two ways of saying the same thing. Love is the whole of the law and the only thing that’s really required of us. When Jesus was anointed, he fulfilled the mosaic law, and a new standard was put into place…a standard that required servants of Jehovah not to be responsible for their actions, but also their thoughts, and thus a laundry list of dos and don’ts became a list of ways in which we should think about one another…with the goal of love in mind…correct actions follow naturally from a correct heart condition. Likewise we are now being prepared for perfection…at which point we will be responsible not only for our thoughts, but for our own emotions. Each transition brings us closer to perfection, and makes the laundry list shorter and shorter, because with stricter control over how we feel towards others, the rest follows naturally. Love does encompass all, and those that are destined to be destroyed are those that actively resist God’s love, because such ones disrupt the harmony that Jehovah intends. They can’t follow into the new system, because their imperfection is willful, and thus they have no love for God or his plans.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s not a bad excuse for errant behaviour and thinking, I must admit. Your problem there though is to assume that the principles of the mosaic law were somehow no longer valid because Jesus fulfilled them. Rubbish. ‘Okay guys, Jesus has squashed the laws now, we can do what we want as long as we ‘lurrve’ each other. If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one your with.’

              To fullfil means to complete, to meet a standard, not abolish. Secondly, Jehovah does not change, therefore his principles do not change or develop. Third, you confuse professional empathy with love and confuse the regard for your fellow man with excusing sin. Jehovah says that those sinning will die, but he wishes all to ( come/try to his standards) repent. Clearly if you do not wish to discuss the issue from the bible, then your arguement cannot be bible based. The fact that you have expressed your feelings on the bible does not make them correct simply because you have done so ‘ad nauseum’ as you say. That simply implies you have tired others out with your vacuous arguing outside of bible principles. The word you are looking for is ‘ad infinitum’ or infinitely. If you had done it once, correctly, then that would have been enough. The fact that you still try to justify your thinking through soppy references to ‘love’ without understanding what love is, and relegate it to emotion only, either means you simply try to justify your standards as being Jehovah’s standards, which if you did use the bible you would know that they are not, or you try to delude yourself, which is understandable, because you wish to excuse yourself ad nauseum. Diliges Dominium Deum tuum ex toto corde tuo est animus tibi anima tua: et proximum tuum sicut ego, as the bible says.

            • 1 cor 13:3-8…love is of course more than an emotion. It requires action on our part. And if our self-righteousness gets in the way of someone else’s salvation, then our actions betray the fact the we indeed have no love at all. I don’t justify anything. It’s not my intention to justify anything here…never has been. I am simply giving you my point of view for others to either take from it what they will or leave it. I’m not here to argue, which is why i ignore those who try to pick a fight, either personal, or over doctrine. My position is rooted in scripture, and yet there is no reason to go iver it again because, as you say, ive already gone over it “correctly” once. Although, your argument that doing it correctly the first time is always sufficient is not sound. How many time did Jesus go over the fact that he was going to die with the apostles? Did he do it incorrectly the first dozen or hundred times, or was it the apostles slowness to believe that necessitated repetition of the same teaching multiple times? My main point in all of this always seems to escape notice…its not about whether homosexuality is right or wrong…its about self-righteousness and looking down in others with moral superiority. The Pharisees and the publican, “I thank my God I’m not like so-and-so,” well guess what? In saying that you do worse for the simple fact that you’re supposed to know better. This isn’t about who can follow the laws the closest…because we’re all dinners and so the all the same in God’s eyes…there is no difference, for all have sinned and call short of the glory of God…you know what that means? God doesn’t ser degrees if sin…it’s all bad in his eyes. God called Abraham a friend not because he was less sinful, but because he was willing to listen. Love is not a technicality or a footnote…love is the point. The point of what? The point of everything…the point of creation. Of all the fruitages of the Holy Spirit, only of love does the Bible say, “God is love.” I remember a talk by an elder who said that imperfection is always in reference to something. The illustration he gave was driving in a nail. Is it possible to take the handle if a screw driver and drive in the nail? Sure, but it’s much easier to fi with a hammer. In fact, that is the job the hammer was designed for…the hammer is, in a literal sense, the “perfect” tool for the job. So what is it in reference to when we say humans are imperfect? Humans are incapable if living in harmony with the rest of creation, as God had intended, because if their sinfulness. The reason why willfully sinful humans must be destroyed us because they will continue to disrupt that harmony…even such a destructive thing in God’s part is motivated by love of his creation and his desire for harmony. It’s not out if hatred towards the sinner, as some might come to the conclusion based on the way that nominal Christians talk about them

            • Burt Reynolds

              I note that you modify your terms on each reposte and so it is difficult to discuss the issues be they from the scripture or just personally held beliefs. What is clear though is that what you are saying is personal to you. There is no foundation for it within the scripture, even though you claim it to be so and reflects the common social attitude that anything in this regard is acceptable. In a way, that is understandable because we interpret the emotions of life, tempered by our personal experiences. This is one facet of freedom of choice, but the freedom of choice in itself, has boundaries. Even then, those boundaries are held by very little in the way of demand by Jehovah, in that only a few standards must be regarded as absolute. He allows us freedom of choice. We are free to love him for what he is.

              Those boundaries of love are in part: morality, truth, compassion, empathy. From those ( and others) spring, faithfulness, respect, thoughtfulness, tenderness and from those (and others ) come yet more ‘downloads’ that can eventually filter out into justification if we do not hold tight to the core values. As with the brain, one has the basic personality overlaid with the recognition of priority in need for survival, overlaid by the means to obtain such via peaceable and amicable ways: to negotiate. The attributes of Jehovah guide that as surely as words describe emotion, yet leave the the sense of what happens to the reader. Love is not a single entity, but is a composite, a collective of human nature as defined by Jehovah. In the subject matter to hand of homosexuality et al, the world responds to the symptoms of the human distortion of Jehovah’s truths on the matter, instead of the causal root of why these boundaries were made.

              In terms of (true) Christianity this is why homosexuality and perversions such as sodomy ( how loving and respectful is that to the mind and body?) were outlawed. In response to the outcry of those whom wished to follow this course, Christianity was abandoned and the social structure changed to accommodate it. In the same vein, Murder was outlawed, penalised by death. Now, in most cases it’s a short jail sentence. Prostitution and immorality were outlawed in the beginning. Now it is ignored and fills the world with pornography. Thievery was outlawed. Now it’s a slap on the wrist. You get the point….but for example, though thievery is wrong, it is now justified in many respects by society….’I had to feed my family’ ‘I have no money. He does. He’s insured anyway…’. Is that okay then? It was that person’s interpretation, but not Jehovah’s. Just as the arguement goes for homosexuality et al today.

              Regardless, no one can make that justification for you. One has to make it for one’s self. That is why the bible makes it so blindingly clear, that even the blind can see it. ‘Do Not…’, so that we all know where we stand.

            • Richard Long

              What you mean to say is she is slippery and intentionally evasive. The least she could do is answer your questions with questions to demonstrate engagement in a discussion rather than a prophetic audience.

            • Burt Reynolds

              It’s a difficult arguement to have. The brain response is pretty much beyond explanation and it is not beyond reason to assume that he believes something that is not there, or lacks the means to know/project the difference. After all, we can hallucinate. However it would require a degree of psychopathy to argue against a sense of being that the majority of us posses, but that does not rule it out. Are we what we are through nature, or are we conditioned by society to behave a certain way, ergo, nature/nurture, or do we choose that way for our selves ? Only Tara can answer that question, and only Jehovah knows his answer. To a degree, one way or another, in whatever sense of the word, we share Tara’s boat.

            • You keep saying that my beliefs are not scriptural, despite the fact that I have addressed each scripture pertaining to homosexual conduct in the presentation of my argument (albeit not the current presentation, because, as I mention, that’s not even the purpose of my post). You continue to ignore both those facts and just keep repeating that my beliefs arent based on scripture. This should be the last time I address this. If however you wish to address specific scriptures, I’ll be more than happy to go over them with you. The thing is, I have no agenda here other than spreading love. If you are steadfast in your insistence of denouncing homosexuality, I’m not upset over that. As i said, I’m here to present what I’ve come to understand for others to take out leave. As I’ve mentioned, based on my own analysis of Scripture, i have come to understand that there is no biblical basis for ostracizing a person for being gay. For fornication? Sure, if the person’s already accepted the truth. For being in a same sex marriage? That’s different and the Bible doesn’t take a direct stand on that, do I’d just as soon let that one go for the sake of a person’s salvation. If you read something into those scriptures that I don’t, that’s your prerogative. My interest is in spreading the good news and not in exacting punishment for something that’s not even addressed in the scriptures. If you come across a person and preach to them and give up on them after finding out they are in a same sex marriage, and there was actual potential in their hearts to serve Jehovah, is not that bloodguilt on you? Even if someone else came along to cultivate those seeds of truth and they did turn around and enter the truth (as most assuredly Jehovah would make sure happened), the bloodguilt for losing a brother in the first place would remain. As for your “boundaries” of love…truth, compassion, etc…these arent boundaries of love, they are expressions of love. They don’t work against love, they are motivated by love. As far as how the world punishes criminals, that’s not my concern… My concern isn’t with the laws of Satan’s system, it is with spiritual laws.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well if you are more than happy to go over scriptures with me, I suppose you could start with a discussion on the scripture at Leviticus 18.22. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Even if any sexual act was absent, don’t forget that it is also what is wished for or desired that counts too. Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies wth a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. Romans:26-28 deals with unnatural usage/ relations, passions ….mark that word, passions. Shameless acts…..deserving of the penalty for their ERROR. God gave them up to a debased mind.
              1 Corinthians 6:9… Neither sexually immoral ( this of course includes choice and/or changing the body to suite that choice)….nor men who practice homosexuality – or same sex either way.
              Romans 1:26. God gave them up to dishonourable passions….discusses lesbianism.
              Exodus 22:19. Sex with animals …death,
              Romans 1:29-32 ‘….they not only do them, but give their approval to those that do’.
              Leviticus 18:1-30 ‘….keep MY ( Jehovah’s ) statutes. You SHALL walk in them. If a person does them, he shall live by them…’
              Genesis 2:24. Man leaves father, mother holds fast to his wife.
              Leviticus 18:15-24. Rules n regs regarding sexual relations, right down to menstruation. Again, boundaries even to the sex act and respect for your wife and the meaning of blood, plus of course bodily health.
              Mathew 19:4-5 he who created them made them male and female…..ergo boundaries.
              Romans 1:26-27. God gives them up to dishonourable passions….men were consumed with passion one man for another, shameless acts….passions….due penalty
              Mathew 6:33 SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ALL, …..ALL THESE THINGS WILL BE ADDED TO YOU.’ In other words, wait, keep righteous, Jehovah will put it right for you …..the imperfections,
              Romans 1:18-32 ….suppression of truth….for what can be known about God is plain to them….without excuse.
              1 Timothy 1:10 ….homosexuality….whatever is contrary to sound doctrine.
              Revelation 22-18,19….adding to the book….ergo, assuming and presuming on Jehovah .

              So there are indeed in both old and new testaments, condemnation of homosexuality. As is said, fulfilment is not annulment of the law. Just completion.

              And it shows that the bible does indeed make a stand on same sex marriage. ( I must say that it is interesting that though you say you are transgender, you argue for same sex marriages. If this is the case, you nullify your arguement for gender reassignment and its ‘naturalness’ and necessity ! )

              The bible shows then that homosexuality is indeed a perverse ‘love’ and that what you are promoting as love, is in fact, as the bible says, a seeking to approve or have approval for those acts.

              What you are suggesting is that all those scriptures from the bible are not applicable, have no basis, no intent, no continuity, no expression of Jehovah’s dislike for such, even though the scriptures say that Jehovah does not change! You seek to tell me that same sex marriage, with all that it implies is not mentioned in the scripture, when every scripture above shows plainly that the simple act of desire for such is an abomination. It takes incredulity to a new hight.

              Your stance appears to be that your brand of love….you cannot in all reasonableness claim it to be scriptural….transcends that of Christ because you are giving something to homosexuals et al , ‘that even Jesus could not give’ (your quote), is genuine and approved by Jehovah. That because you love those who practice these things, that makes it a gift to Jehovah that even Christ could not give. It beggars belief, but as you said you would argue the scriptures, I have written/ evidenced the above and so you had better get on with it. Please would you answer each scripture as listed above otherwise we shall be all over the place and reference each reposte with the appropriate scripture that shows that the desire, the practice, the ‘love’ and approval of such love within homosexuality, homosexual acts and desires, including lesbianism is approved of by Jehovah. Further, I would be interested to read from the scripture any reference, howsoever slight, that suggests that even the elementary thought of same sex marriage is approved of by Jehovah, even though such marriage is not mentioned, but every desire or act pertaining to it, is clearly condemned. Perhaps you could elucidate on what sort of relationship this would materialise, that has no physical desire or act in it whatsoever and is completely devoid of such ( I take it that with such clear biblical proof as above, that you do not indulge in such) ..and of course, the reason as to why one would want such a relationship that is sterile of such, especially when a full relationship can be had with a member of the opposite sex, and with Jehovah’s blessing. Educate me, it’s like being back at work.

            • Okay, I had not intended to do this here, but since you asked, I shall respond. Let’s start with the Levitical/Mosaic laws. These laws were based on a covenant with the Israelites. When I commented on Jesus fulfilling the law, you pointed out that mean that Jesus fulfilled the standard of the law. This is true to a point, but it also means that the law was abolished. Not that Jesus himself had directly done away with the law, but in a more subtle sense. The Levitical/Mosaic law was based on a Covenant between Jehovah and Israel. the purpose of that covenant was to produce the Messiah. In that sense, Jesus fulfilled the covenant and hence the law. Once Jesus was anointed as the Messiah, the Levitical law was no longer needed, and certainly gentile Christians were NEVER under the covenant between Jehovah and the nation of Israel.

              You pointed out that Jehovah’s principles don’t change. this is correct. But the laws required by those principles do change depending on circumstance. The law is for those who are weak-willed so as to continually resist the principles behind God’s law because they do not have the law of love written on their hearts. Romans 2:14-16, “For when people of the nations, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having the law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts that are being accused or even excused. This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.” Hence, the law is for those that don’t have God’s principles imprinted onto their hearts. the reason Christians are told to follow their heart when there is a discrepancy between their head and their heart is because the sinful heart is treacherous, and filled with evil. Those who cultivate love in their hearts, while still imperfect, have greater freedom from the written regulations of the law because what the exhibit naturally comes from a pure heart (or as pure as can be expected in an imperfect state).

              As we are no longer under the Mosaic law (or, for those not of Israeli descent, were never under it to begin with), I will not address the laws under that covenant as they are not applicable, even though the principles behind them are, and are found in the refined law passed down to Christians via the holy spirit in the first century. It makes no more sense to apply Lev 18:22 to modern Christians than it does to apply Lev 19:19.

              Rom 1:26-28. It is clear this verse is not referring to a monogamous, committed, homosexual relationship. Like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the fact that these people engaged in homosexual conduct is incidental to the real problem: that their sexual passions went unchecked. It says that the “females changed the natural use of themselves,” and that “the males left the natural use of the female.” Because of the words “changed” and “left,” this is likely referring to those who had no natural inclination or desire to be with someone of the same sex, specifically, but were looking for people to get their rocks off with.

              1 Corinthians 6:9-10: I said I would not address the Levitical laws, however, I make an exception here, because there does seem to be a connection between this scripture and Lev 20:13, as I will explain. There are two words here in the original Greek that do not translate well into English. These are malakoi, and arsenokoitai. Malakoi in the NWT is translated as “men who submit to homosexual acts.” The Kingdom Interlinear translates the word as “soft (men).” Other translations use the term “effeminate men.” The connotation here is of a man who is sexually submissive to another man.

              the second term, arsenokoitai, is translated in the NWT as “men who practice homosexuality.” this word has been greatly debated by scholars, because it does not appear to be a Greek word that was in use. Paul uses it one other place in his writings: 1 timothy 1:10, and it is not used by any other Bible writer. Some scholars believe that Paul made up the word. the word has two parts: arseno, which means “man,” and koitai, which can mean “bed,” or “lying with.” the kingdom Interlinear this translates the word arsenokoitai as “liers with males.”

              It seems as if Paul is referencing the same restriction on homosexuality that was put forth at Leviticus 20:13. In fact, the Hebrew versions of the two components of of the word, arseno, or “man” and koitai, or “lying with” appear right next to each other in Lev 20:13. since this word appears to be made up by Paul, and its two components appear side-by-side in a verse in Leviticus, it’s likely that Paul simply transcribed the two Hebrew words as one word in Greek. to express the same meaning. Thus we can conclude that Leviticus 20:13 is not simply a part of a law that no longer applies to us, but is a principle that has been preserved in the Christian Greek Scriptures. This next portion I am about to present is controversial, and I will admit, if someone were to say it’s nonsense, I wouldn’t disagree with them (although I wouldn’t agree with them either)…but, actually, 1 Cor 6:9-10 does not apply to all Christians. verse 9 states, “Do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom?” Who are destined to inherit God’s Kingdom? Is it the anointed, or the great crowd? Of course, the anointed are the ones who inherit the kingdom, the great crowd are the ones over whom the kingdom rules. So then why does it appear in the Levitical law? Keep in mind that the full number of the 144,000 were originally meant to be called from among the Isrealites…the Hebrews were God’s nation of people, and that is why the Levitical laws were more ceremonial than the Christian laws…a lot of it had to do with keeping God’s people separate from the world…symbolically as well as morally and physically. I will admit that homosexuality was not originally a part of God’s plan, as perceived by Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:4-5. But things have gotten mucky because of sin. As I aid before, I believe I will be restored as a female in the new system, and it’s entirely possible that there are gay men and women now who were meant to be born the opposite gender, and have not realized it. I’ve known a number of transgender people, myself included, who initially classified themselves as gay, only to realize that they are straight, they were just born with the wrong body parts. So why is the scripture singling out the anointed? Perhaps it’s because they won’t be male nor female in the new system…perhaps it’s simply because they need to be purer than the great crowd in order to inherit the kingdom…remember, they will need to have proven their loyalty prior to their sealing, so that by the time they are in heaven, they are already approved. The judgment of the great crowd, however, does not occur until after the 1000 year reign. That could certainly account for it. It is quite possible that Jehovah is giving them a greater measure of holy spirit (which is undoubtedly the case) that allows them to resist such urges to a greater extent than those of the great crowd. I don’t know the reasoning, I only know what’s written in the scriptures. If I had to guess, I’d say it was a combination of everything I’ve mentioned. Same-sex coupled who find themselves entering into the great crowd may well find in the new system, that one of them becomes female, or they may be required to divorce. The former seems more realistic, as God did say, “I hate divorce” (Malachi 2:16). Or it could be that God allows the marriage to continue into the new system as is. Whatever the case, it seems clear to me that we are incapable to judging these matters, and thus the reason for my position on the whole thing…which is to suspend judgment altogether.

              It should also be noted that the only place the Bible, and in particular, the new testament, brings up the notion of homosexuality (such as in Romans 1:26, 27, and 1 Cor 1:6-9), it’s always in the context of gross sexual misconduct, such as prostitution, and fornication. The bible NEVER addresses the issue of homosexuality in the context of marriage, so when you bring up the point about not adding to the scriptures, this also applies here. The bible speaks of homosexual fornication and “male temple prostitutes” and other such things, but never talks about same-sex love. the reason for this is because the concept of homosexuality as a sexual orientation was foreign to the ancient world. There was no concept that actual love could exist between two people of the same sex in the same way it does for a heterosexual marriage. When the apostles wrote about homosexuality…they were writing from their perspective…what they witnesses were things like sexual fornication and male temple prostitutes, so that’s what they wrote about when speaking of homosexuality. You might say that the spirit of the law includes same sex love and marriage as well, but if you’re arguing about adding to the scriptures and are looking for a way to hypocritically apply that scripture, that’s a pretty good way to go about it. I don’t condemn those who hold a reserved view of same-sex marriage, and I’m not arguing one way or another as to how that issue will be resolved in the new system, all I’m saying, is there’s room to give people the benefit of the doubt, and so for the sake of their salvage, and fear turning someone away from the truth because of my own presumptuousness, I choose to entertain that doubt.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes. It is a valid point that we should not condemn something we might not have experience of, or felt for ourselves, or even felt that we ‘are’. If a person has no colour vision, how does one explain a colour to them? But does that mean that a colour does not exist? Thus we can only explain to a colourblind person that there is such a thing. To continue with the analogy, colourblind people….monochromatic is very rare, so they do see some colours…see a difference in shade, and so there is a hint that such exists, a basis for belief in what is said, so to speak.

              You rightly point out that in this day and age, there is room to agree on genetic changes affecting sexual orientation, but one might be forgiven for saying that pro-rata to population, the percentage affected has not changed and thus that assumption of genetic change does not exist, throwing choice and nurturing of desire, back into the equation. At the turn of 1900, just to illustrate, there were just one billion people on earth. (And one could still hear silence…bliss).

              1) It is very difficult to argue some of your points, but basically, for all the wrong reasons, because it appears that you have a firm belief in what you say and that from such you cannot or will not change. That leaves the question of motive and self doubt as alluded to in your last paragraph in question, because the bible says differently.

              2) The bible sets out the issues of homosexuality quite plainly. In this, one thing other than that fact is certain, and this is that, the passions, acts and nature of homosexuality are part of the sense of being so inclined, just as it is for heterosexual people. Thus the only reply to Jehovah on that score is to abstain. As the apostle Paul says, ‘let him who can make room for it, make room for it.’ And thus concentrate on the preaching instead of marital affairs. Thus whether one is affected by this sense of being or not, one has the choice to abstain if in doubt as to its purity, rather than offend Jehovah. You express a certain doubt in your self on this score and in any event, one cannot claim immunity from responsibility under the guise of ‘true’ well intentioned love.

              3) One cannot extrapolate sexual acts from desire as you suggest with temple prostitutes, or those that use them, or indeed from those in a relationship. If a person doubts their sexually assigned body, with their function of identity, one cannot deny the evidence that two males or two females, lie together with a sexual passion for each other. Even if one is convinced they live in the wrong body, it is forbidden in the bible to show passion for the body of another of the same sex. How else can one express ones self in this context. Therefore, abstinence is the only course. You cannot lie there and say, please excuse my genitals, just have sex with my mind for the time being. This does not even begin to consider the position of the partner. To what end are you leading him? If he is of the opposing gender, I.e., male and wishing for intercourse with you as a proclaimed female, how is he to be aroused by your physical appreance? He is not homosexual. Even if you have undergone surgery and hormone therapy, there is no answer from Jehovah at this time and neither is your body female, just made to look that way for your identity benefit. You note this in your comment that you expect to be given a female body. But that is not a foregone conclusion. So where does your partner belong in this? It must be difficult for him to deal with the conflict that you are in a male body, or if not, therefore must be homosexual to be attracted to another male? In which case, it begs the question, why are you dating a homosexual person who would have no interest in you as a female?

              4) I don’t feel I have added to the scripture by defining the application of the scripture in this matter. I cannot even begin to understand the convolutions of application to the scripture you cite. I can only rely on what I read. That does not make me unsympathetic to the disability of living in the wrong body, if such a condition exists. Jehovah does does not lead people astray, but draws a person out by his own desire. How many of your homosexual friends have the understanding that you feel you have of the scripture? What do they know of the levitical laws and the mosaic law? I just rely on the straightforwardness of the word as it is written. Surely Jehovah would not hide an acceptance of homosexuality in his word in the maze of explanation that you cite and cause those to suffer? I have been an average JW for decades but I cannot begin to untangle your explanation of Jehovah’s acceptance of homosexuality. On the other side of the coin, his feelings on disability are clear, but those ones are not allowed a free pass to assume on the graces of Jehovah’s written word either, are they? No, as with any disability, we have to wait for Jehovah’s day to set things straight.

              5) It is worth noting that your assumption of Jehovah’s understanding and allowances in this matter, are based on the omission in the bible of it specifically being mentioned. This has led you to assume on the word, using ommision as permission and to leave the judgement to Jehovah. Thus when the time comes, your answer to your individual judgement has to be, ‘You did not say it was wrong…’

              The bible is silent on a multitude of subjects that can be explained as utterly wrong. That the bible expresses love as being the ultimate facet of existence does not imply that the strength of that love, however genuinely felt, is sanctified as holy ( Correctly expressed) in every matter by the individuals choice or interpretation. Our understanding of true love is limited to our condition, therefore we must rely on Jehovah’s word. It has to reflect Jehovah’s standards to be correct. For instance, sex is a part of love, but if the bible says that sex between the same sex is wrong…which it does….then surely that love is wrongly placed and we must look elsewhere. Even then, sex is secondary to reproduction and men cannot reproduce with men. This would give anyone a clue. I read by your last paragraph that you prefer to leave the inevitable doubt you feel to Jehovah. Personally I would not. The bible says to trust in Jehovah and to do that, we must know him and except him in the context that he has set for us. This context is blindingly obvious and it is only by our own self will that we test him by default.

            • Hmm…I’m not sure what you’re point was of the first analogy. As to the question of population rate, i don’t know the answer to that…it’s possible you are right, or it’s possible that the rate is increasing with each successive generation because each generation gets further and further from perfection. I say, however, that it doesn’t matter. Even if it’s just one single person, expressing live to that one person for the sake of his or her salvation I think is not wrong. One of my bible study conductors once told me that for all the kingdom hall, assembly halls, and literature that have been produced and all the money that was spent producing those things, if all of that only ever served to save one person, would it be worth it. The answer we both agreed to was, absolutely…that’s how valuable even one life is.

              As to your comments on nature vs nurture, actually, science has understood for quite some time that both sexual orientation and gender identity are epigenetic in nature. As to sexuality, scientists have actually discovered the gene, located on the x chromosome, that’s responsible for attraction to men. Whether or not that gene gets activated depends, basically on the testosterone levels in the womb, among other factors. These levels are affected by stress to the mother during pregnancy and other factors. The more children a mother has, the more likely it is that the next child will be gay. Scientists believe that this is for the sake of the family, too many mouths to feed makes existence harder. Similarly, sex and gender development (sex being the body, gender being the mind) are both determined by doses if testosterone administered in utero. The first dose tell the body whether or not to begin to develop as male (all babies are conceived as female by default). The second dose tells the brain whether or not to begin to restructure itself into a male brain. If there is too much or too little testosterone present during just one of those two stages of development but not the other, that’s what causes transsexuality.

              You ask me to consider how a “straight” man would feel about being in a sexual relationship with a transwoman? There are plenty of straight people knowingly in that position. Sexual orientation isn’t a black and white thing, it’s a continuum. There are bisexuals who ate equally attracted to men and women, although that’s quite rare, most people actually lie somewhere in the scale that’s not all the way to one side or the other, or perfectly in the middle. There ate too uncountable shades of gray when it comes to sexual orientation. In addition, i know from experience that it’s entirely possible to develop romantic feelings for someone you’re not actually sexually attracted to, and different people process that in different ways.

              And I’m not sure what “excuse” you refer to concerning people with other disabilities? What are they being excused from? Are you suggesting that Jehovah demands the same level of service from a person who is physically handicapped as someone who isn’t? That’s a bit ridiculous. That’s one thing i never liked about JWs, is their obsession with field time. I can’t count the number of times that someone said, “oh, if i do this, then i can include this car trip on my service hours” or some such nonsense. Jehovah doesn’t care about quantity, he cares about quality. It’s whether or not something is coming from the heart. Jesus said of the poor woman who put in two coins of little value that she gave more than all the others. Because her her sacrifice, Jehovah counted her contribution as more valuable than those of all the others.

              You state “it is forbidden in the bible to show passion for the body of another of the same sex.” Nowhere in the bible does it state that. What it states is that a male should not lie with another male. Not once does the Bible even suggest that male and female must be defined in the context of external anatomy and not on brain structure. Speak of adding to the scriptures…sure, you can say that that’s how male and female were traditionally defined…i don’t find that a compelling argument. Traditionally, slavery was not considered a had thing. We know better now, and while the Bible doesn’t actually condemn slavery, few if us today would ever entertain the notion.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thank you for your reply Tara. I don’t think I can offer any further biblical reasoning to this matter.

            • It was never my intention to discuss such matters of homosexuality, because, as i have maintained in the past, this is all just a side note for me, but since you kept pressing it, i had no choice but to address it. But there are two points in my response that i forgot to address. The first is your comment about how procreation takes precedence over passion. This was certainly true under the Mosaic law as the purpose of that covenant was to produce the Messiah. Hence anything detracting from that was considered an abomination. But would you today criticize an infertile person for marrying?

              The second is your bringing into question whether or not medical transition and specifically sex reassignment surgery, produces male/female anatomy. Anthropologists have found a primitive tribe of people where some of the males at puberty spontaneously become female…thus includes developing a uterus and producing eggs. Scientists believe something in their genetic or chemical makeup is prompting their adult stem cells to produce such structures within their bodies and to promote other aspects if gender transition without Medical intervention. Scientists hope to one day be able to stimulate uterus and egg production in a more controlled manner to improve Medical transition for trans people. The end will probably get here before medicine gets that far, but it begs the question of whether a uterus and eggs produced in such a way are anatomically female… What else could they be? And if that’s the case, what’s the difference between calling a uterus developed after birth anatomically female, and a vagina produced with a scalpel anatomically female. It serves the same function as a vagina produced in the womb, it’s made out of the same material…the difference between a surgical vagina and one produced in the womb is undetectable even to an OBGYN, and when paired with a womb producing eggs (whether developed in the womb or from adult stem cells) is fully capable of procreation.

            • Richard Long

              Hi Tara,
              I’m going to be direct, because that is the authentic me. I’ve chased back every comment you’ve ever made on Disqus and still don’t really know what to make of you. Joseph recommends you and that has much weight for me. You should know that I am most acutely aware that I am in no position to judge anyone and my approach is for the purpose of getting to understand you.

              It is my understanding that all “new scrolls” should be expected during the parousia and not before, and also during the millennial reign (which is, I guess, technically the parousia too). Surely you must know that both the content and the manner of presentation put forward in your posts are shocking to the sensibilities of just about everyone who might see them here. Is it your opinion that we all so backward that we must be jolted into a state of submission so that you may contemporize us. Whether intended or not, the sum result of your body of commentary is to produce that exact impression on me.

              Is it your opinion that Jehovah desires for me to be ashamed of my cis-gendered heterosexuality, and that if I don’t I am failing to move ahead at Jehovah’s pace? That is how you are received. We all have people in our lives experiencing some form of internal conflict regarding sexuality and most all here are enlightened enough to understand these are often very complicated anatomical and bio-chemical issues beyond our ability to do much more than show compassion, love and understanding. I found quite intriguing your expression of expectation that when either resurrected or perfected your gender conflict would be resolved opposite the way you were born. I had never been presented with that idea before, but I’ll even buy that possibility. It sounds more logical than Jehovah having to rewire your brain.

              Everyone, including you, chalks these conditions of other than cis-gendered heterosexuality up to Adamic sin. It’s just logical that hundreds of generations of genetically degrading specimens have devolved into a hot mess of of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual infirmities. It is our individual responsibility to determine which are ours. I’m fat, ugly, stupid, depressed, and worldly. What yours are is none of my business unless you ask me for help, which I do not perceive you to have any inclination of doing.

              For the life of me, I cannot begin to fathom why we as a body are entertaining any model other than Christ the man as a standard for human sexuality As an unmarried man, he abstained by choice because he had more important things to do. Nothing prevented him from marrying and fathering children but his acceptance of his calling and his compassionate nature likely seeking to leave as few relatives grieving as possible upon his death. Imagine the suffering of his progeny if still alive today in this fetid world! Are we to expect that if he married a man he would still be sinless and able to present his sacrifice as our ransom? The body of your commentary seems to suggest that would be the case.

              If we hold up Christ the man as a model, then must we not also look to his equal, the perfect Adam, who was completed with a female mate and given a purpose, to procreate while expanding the paradise to the whole earth. It was this arrangement that Jehovah pronounced “good” at the end of the sixth day, was it not? Are we to imagine that at some later point in time this standard would need to be changed? Maybe sixty-five hundred years or so later there would have been enough people on earth we would all then be directed to stop procreating and just fornicate with anyone or anything we chose?

              Should one not be ever mindful that Israel, Christianity, the Kingdom are an apparatus of restoration? Restoration to what? Christ? No. David? No. Moses? No. A restoration to Adam. Eventually, even the Kingdom will be dissolved and the inhabitants of earth will fulfill the purpose of Adam and Eve, they will be required to conform to the same conditions for life as our original parents.

              One is left with the perception that you are in complete possession of these very basic facts. Clearly your command of scripture is superlative. The body of your commentary leaves one with the impression Jehovah has surgically and bio-chemically altered a person and raised that one up as a prophet to perfect the sadly deficient and unsatisfactory sacrifice of Christ and shepherd His people to a new superlative understanding of behaviors one might expect to experience in paradise. If this was not your intent, might one suggest that you please walk it back?

              You have much to offer this community in terms of helping us come to grips with the very real suffering that ones similarly situated to you are forced to endure and do so brightly shine as one overcoming adversity and oppression. I would express my preference that, as an act of love for those here, the agenda of your website and this one be meticulously kept separate. I would not like to see Robert provoked or aggravated further. Surely you recognize this space is not public, but rather an extension of his private home and his graciousness in inviting us to gather here comes at personal expense and is deserving of respect and gratitude.

              May you always be in Jehovah’s love!

            • The Raven

              Hmm… I had to look up most of the terms in this particular discussion as I haven’t got a clue. I never have been able to understand these issues at any depth and I’m glad there are folks here who can.

            • Richard Long

              Should I expect a better outcome than the Brian thing?

            • The Raven

              I don’t know the answer to that my friend. That will depend on Tara. You had a very well reasoned comment but as I said, this subject is a bit of a mystery to me.

            • Richard Long

              What can I explain for you?

            • The Raven

              That’s ok, man. I’m good.

            • Richard. I really appreciate your candor, and no, i don’t expect you to be ashamed if being heterosexual, or cis-gendered. I’m not even arguing here whether or not homosexuality is a sin. I don’t even really believe we have that answer, and i think that’s by design. Sure, both the old and the new testament warned against fornicating with members of the sane sex…it also warned about fornicating with members of the opposite sex. What it is completely silent on, however, is the issue of same sex marriage. Sure there’s the passage about women leaving their natural desires for men and men vice versa…but in order to leave a desire, you must first have it, thus it speaks more to the degree of fornication than it does about same-sex love. The reason the bible is silent on the issue of same sex marriage is because such a concept was completely foreign even in the first century. The idea that two people of the same gender could develope romantic love for one another was simply not conceptualized back then…all they knew of homosexuality was perversion and fornication. I do believe Jehovah allowed those in power to twist his words to keep perversion such as that at bay, but the time for laws and regulations is coming to a close, and the time for opening our hearts and not looking down on one another or others in self-righteousness. When i was studying with JWs, a sister once told me that JWs are liberal towards things that aren’t expressly forbidden by God, and i believe this is the right attitude to take. Because we are imperfect, we should give each other the benefit if the doubt…and we can rest assured that if something needs to be corrected, Jehovah will step in and take care of it. It will be then, and only then, that we can truly say whether a person is pure of heart or not, based on their response to Jehovah’s counsel, and not the counsel of imperfect men. Because of the lack of counsel the Bible actually gives on gay marriage when you look at it, I choose to defer to that principle of giving people the benefit of the doubt, and leave the separation of the wheat and the weeds in Jehovah’s hands. It’s not our responsibility…our responsibility at this point in time is singular…preach the good news….is it my purpose here to shock people? No. Unfortunately, though, EVERYONE in the truth is in for revelations that they will find surprising and even shocking, myself included (I’ve gone through plenty of shocks my own already). It’s a time of transition…things are being shaken up…the same thing happened in the first century. Imagine the shock of the Pharisees when Jesus told them that the Sabbath was made for the sake of man and not the other way around. I’m not comparing you or anyone here to a Pharisee, that’s just an example I’m using. As we move to perfection, there are going to be things that we thought were so ingrained in us that will become meaningless in time. Who on this board is afraid of wearing clothes of two different types of fabric. Such laws in the Mosaic times were there as a reminder to the people to be holy, or separate from the surrounding nations. It was a protection for the Israelites…a protection no longer needed during the Christian era as Jesus commanded his followers to reach out to their fellow man. Sure the law to only marry in the lord was still a part of the Christian laws, but imagine once were in paradise, there won’t be anyone who isn’t in the lord, and that law will no longer be needed, along with a host of other laws that were designed to protect us from our own sinful nature. We won’t have sin anymore, and there will be no room in our hearts gor anything other than love, so such laws and protections will no longer be needed, and we will instead be obedient to the love in our heart, and that will be sufficient. It’s like what Jesus said…what goes into a man does not define him, but what comes out of him does…for out of the abundance of the heart does a man speak. Put another way, our actions naturally follow from what’s in our heart.

              One thing I’d like to add to my reply to Burt…i agree, we don’t go into the cistern to join others but we do call them out. But in order to do that, we do need to get next to the cistern, so they can hear us. Jesus demonstrated this and was afterwards accused by the Pharisees of eating with the tax collectors.

            • Richard Long

              Tara, are we really going to pretend I didn’t challenge many of the assertions you have made here over the past several years? For the sake of moving straight to the discussion I think you want to have, I’m going to bypass beating you over the head with scriptures clearly stating the practice of homosexuality is sin and just take the position.

              I’m convinced noone were wants to watch a debate over gay marriage, but I think one must acknowledge that LGBTQ is as much factor of life in the developed world as it was in Sodom and Gomorrah. Whether to accept or reject it’s normalization is the purview of all social constructions, most especially religious institutions which are by nature more stringently constructed. That any Christian institution even slightly moderates on the issue beyond love the sinner, hate the sin baffles me, but I can clearly see the issues facing secular body politic.

              Don’t you agree this is not the place for that?

            • Nigel

              Hi Richard! Just scrolling through the comments – and whilst I’m not about to engage in the conversation that you & Tara are in, something caught my eye that I thought I should clarify.

              You wrote: “Eventually, even the Kingdom will be dissolved”.

              But that is not true. See: Dan 7:14, Isa 9:7, Luke 1:33

              All the best Richard. 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Thanks, Nigel

            • Nigel

              “why continued governance would be necessary for a world of perfect humans”

              I guess we won’t really know until we get there but it’s possible that as long as humans have freewill, the potential for rebellion will exist. One would think that after the glorious Millennial reign of Christ everyone would be fully convinced of Jehovah’s love and good intentions towards mankind but Rev 20:7-9 indicates otherwise. The other thing is, Kingdom governance will probably entail more than just policing.

              Also, if I’m not mistaken (and I might very well be), I think it may only be those who are part of the first resurrection that will become “incorruptible”. But I certainly don’t want to be dogmatic about that; if someone shows me from the scriptures that all who pass beyond the Great White Throne judgement will become incorruptible as well I’ll be very pleased.

            • Richard Long

              First, to clarify, the reference to incorruptibility was intended to apply only to those of the new creation, Christ and his brothers, those ruling as kings and priests. Sorry if my wording was ham handed so as to cause confusion.

              We might consider my question from another angle, if you have time to do so. Would the global family generated by Adam ever have needed administration? With what we know of Adam as a model, my expectation would see every individual by daily communion with Jehovah personally guided in all matters, eternally eliminating any need for an administrative structure.

              Further, one should fully expect the possibility of free will turning rebellious, as Jehovah doubtlessly did, but what factor(s) exacerbate or mitigate the likelihood of that happening. Must we not recognize the uniqueness of both the heavenly and earthy rebellions?

              First, I’m postulating the earthly rebellion could only have had the universal effect it did at that singular point in the stream of time. Specifically, Jehovah having declared his creation “good” and proclaimed his day of rest, although justified in doing so, could not without undermining his own authority by executing a “wipe and restart” protocol. Had the rebellion occurred even one generation later, or only involved Eve, then would not only correction rather than a restoration would be required to satisfy Jehovah’s justice? Such would not require any creative work, and therefore not disturb Jehovah’s rest from creation nor be a reversal of purpose on Jehovah’s part. Alternatively, I suppose one must consider that had there been hundreds, thousands, or even millions in the human family when Satan struck, he might have overcome them all, but the child in me sees the example of Christ as evidence such would not be the case.

              On to the heavenly rebellion, which to me is far more complicated. Understanding the mind of Satan is a fearsome endeavor at best, but one must wonder if he had been discontent prior to establishment of the human family, or only so drawn by and enamored of this new creation so as to be caught off guard by covetousness. Also, the manner in which order is maintained in the spirit realm seems beyond my comprehension, I only able to relate in human terms what imagine might take place there. That the heavenly and earthy rebellions were the same event would naturally influence just what had to be done about it and we clearly see from God’s word universal sovereignty is involved, complicating matters exponentially. I can only recognize the masterful way Jehovah has not only provided a mechanism for restoration of mankind to Adam’s condition, but moved to legally establish His sovereignty as a infinitely perpetual precedent for not only the spirit realm, but the earth and whatever worlds might be founded in the future.

              Must abbreviate for time, but looking beyond the completed restoration of mankind to Adam’s condition and the executed judgement of Jehovah’s enemies both human and spirit, with the then established legal precedent as a touchstone, it would seem no rebellion in ether realm need ever be tolerated. I rather imagine one faltering might get a whisper in the ear or two a la Cain, then the matter disposed of. I’m not even sure a procedure would be required.

              Gotta go,

            • Old lady brady

              What is abundantly clear Richard Long is that you’re coming across as unloving. Nigel only pointed out he wanted to clear up scripturally a point you made in your conversation with Tara, and Nigel did not deserve your condescending reply as he was courteous towards you.
              How unkind of you to refer to someone as ‘it’ and dangerous. The only dangerous thing about Tara is she might love someone to death the way she loves Jehova, her god. How can bitter come from sweet – James 3:11.
              As a professed Christian be careful about judging – James 2:13.
              As it doesn’t define who THEY are but who YOU are and judging ultimately is for god to do – James 4:12.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes it is disrespectful to refer to anyone as ‘it’, but for the sake of peace, my thought at the time was it was an error. Richard would not I feel do that on purpose. You are right too about Tara and his love for Jehovah, but the issue is not that. It is whether Jehovah loves Tara. That Jehovah is not dependant on our puny attempts at love, limited as they generally are to our immediate family to the exclusion of all else….even Jehovah divides love into facets, Agapa, filial and erotica…, it is clear that Jehovah demands and defines love, especially erotic love, within boundaries. One has to ask why this is. A person is not made righteous by their love outside of the biblical restraints, disciplines and laws of nature as stipulated by Jehovah. There is no movement from that course. Would Jehovah not say if he loved homosexuality and encourage faithfulness in it? You know as well as I do, that it’s sacrilege even to write such a thing.

              Thus it is that the arguement is about the sense of love that Tara has, and that it is not only wrong by the bible standards, but wrongly placed. Thus it is not to be applauded. If that were not the case, then why is it argued by theologians world wide? Commending Tara for his love is not fair to him as it only serves to confirm his error. How so? Well, bitter can come from sweet if you adulterate it with lemon juice. And this is the issue here. Tara, according to the bible, the definition of love and as described by Jehovah and Christ, has distorted the righteousness of love with his own standard and tried to involve Jehovah in it. That is neither something to be applauded or to engratiate or salve a conscience, but something to remonstrate with. To applaud it is simply to encourage Tara in his chosen pathway of destruction. There is no triumph in saying it.

              The best illustration of it, is reflected in the blood issue. Blood? No blood or fractions? Just a little blood? What does the bible say? Adultery. Flirting, secretly desiring, stolen kisses, or just don’t do it? Violence. A little bit of violence, the occasional murder, just a severe beating, or love? How about abortion? A little bit of abortion, the occasional abortion, no abortion, or, in the case of my second wife, die, give her life to give birth? Really, is there any arguement in this biblical matter of love other than arguement of compromise? Not love, not intent, not nobility, not Jehovah, just compromise. Compromise everything, justify everything, allow every interpretation, forgive all, accept all, applaud all, everyone follow what they feel is alright. It’s not surprising Jesus wept. Why bother with the bible if we are to fit our own will to it rather than abide by it?

            • The Raven

              I think you’re right about that, Burt. I don’t think he would say something like that deliberately. That last paragraph pretty much sums it up for me, man. I agree. I’ve been trying to follow this and it’s complicated but the bottom line here is exactly what you stated. Either we obey Jehovah or not.

            • Richard Long

              Raven, I’m sorry to disappoint you and Burt. I said what I said and I have explained myself to my detractor, for you also to read. I have also corrected the original query to Joseph to reflect the information I now possess.

            • The Raven

              Oh geez! I thought it was a typo. I see why you wrote that and I understand. I just went with the name but it crossed my mind as well if I was correct in that even.

            • Richard Long

              Right. I would have been forced to make an assumption.

            • Richard Long

              Burt, my friend, I fear I have disappointed you. I apologize for putting upon you a necessity to defend me. I had an appointment to run out to while composing my reply to my detractor. Wish I could have put it up before you felt the need to stand in for me.

              No disrespect was intended for Tara in the very proper use of “it” in that instance of not knowing. “Who is that standing by the door?” “I don’t know. It looks like Tara”

              In related news: I do not know about Tara personally, but every trans-gendered person I know, and there are several, ask others to address them with the pronoun of their preferred or selected gender identity whether they present in that gender or not. Now you know why every straight person in America is addled about identity politics.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think we should give each of us the benefit of the doubt. The written word does not automatically convey emotive issues along with it. Email was always a curse at work but if a person wanted to find offence in what was written they would. One cannot quickly overlay something that does not sound quite right quickly as on the phone.

              There is actually a new gender ‘preference’ now that superceeds transition to the opposite sex and I think it is a dual sex identity, neither male or female personally, but of course having a proclivity to both in terms of the act. It’s too early in the morning to even think about ‘it’! Need tea n toast. When do we get to see your holiday snaps? Do you have my email of fb page? ?

            • Richard Long

              Thanks, friend! Deb working up a file for me now.

            • The Raven

              My niece went to school with kids who claimed to be a number of different things. She tried explaining this to me a few years ago and said the teachers actually had to be given short courses on how to deal with some of them as a new version popped up every few months. Some of the stories she told me were really out there. She actually had much more experience with these matters than I did. I never met a transgender. There were many in her school but she told me most were attention seeking kids. The ones who were serious and going towards surgery for the change were all under psychiatric care. My first thought was “even in high school?” We’re talking teenagers here.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Is that not also the reasoning behind adult baptism? You have to be mature enough to stand by and understand, your feelings. I endured many years at the Masonic boarding school in London. Curiosity never once held any feeling of endearment or attachment. Even the matron, one might say the most curious of all, who was as cold as ice, as barren as the desert in emotion and looked not unlike a horse, was totally detached. When I left there at the age of sixteen, you could have told me I was a transgender Penquin and I would have believed you. Looking back over my life, I think I would have enjoyed being a walnut tree.

            • The Raven

              You know I was going to post that about child baptism and didn’t! Yes it is, I agree. I had similar experience in the Catholic Parochial system but I was a defiant problem child.

            • Richard Long

              Right. I’m empathetic to how generally confusing and all-encompassing the angst of adolescence can be, and that empathy itself is a source of exhaustion as the menu of self-serving customized “-isms” expands to volume after volume. We wont be able to convince many of them – nor their either indulgent, neglectful, or abusive parents – that, if confused, coming to any final conclusions about what or who one is before age 25 is ultimately a pointless waste of time. Never mind trying to point out that acting upon one’s sexuality is an adult behavior wisely left to independent adults. (Yes, Raven, I know that is cruelly restrictive and I’m a total hypocrite for suggesting it, but it is, in the end, experience speaking. lol)

              My daughter brought home a very sweet and attractive young lady, an 11th grader at the time, who identified and presented male. Gay male. Obviously, a frank discussion of the matter reached the consensus that it absolutely just was not fair (nor productive, for that matter) to all the other gay males that this one got to retain possession of female parts. Obviously this young person had in mind FTM top and bottom transition surgeries and was likely only deterred by the cost and minor status. I have to wonder what would have happened had her parents been “supportive” rather than oppositional, of means rather than absent the means, or indulgent enough to immediately satisfy the child’s impulse as so many do in purchasing their minor children augmentations. SHE, at 20 and after a few years of real world semi-independence, has put all that behind her and is quite happily, I’m told, exhausting herself from the effort required to manage the onslaught of male attention coming her way. And, early on, while at our home HE was a polite young man. Now she is a delightful young woman, but too busy to visit often. We see her periodically as she manages the Starbucks booth inside our local Kroger (as well as a few other part-time jobs – hard working young person!)

              So, your’re right. For the majority, maybe even the vast majority, of these young people it is a phase. For those similarly situated to our Tara, likely an unfathomable ordeal.

              As an aside on how young the young people affected by the obviously satanic onslaught of sexuality upon their innocence are… In 96 a brother close to me in our VERY rural congregation confided in my that his son was needing some professional help due to his being repeatedly, persistently, and explicitly pressured for sex by a girl in his class. AT KINDERGARTEN.

            • The Raven

              It has baffled me at best and when speaking to my niece she was very understanding of my reaction to this. I am still shocked at what I read about and as you stated earlier most Americans can’t keep up with the latest identity issues let alone the rest of life’s demands of just trying to make a living and raise a family. Kindergarten??? WOW!

            • Richard Long

              Makes you scared to know what must have been going on in that little girl’s house, for sure!

            • The Raven

              Yeah!

            • Southern ShaSha

              It is so sad, children are encouraged to explore all avenues of sexuality from very early on. Was reading an article the other day on how”progressive” Sweden is in all this. I believe it had become some sort of statue regarding how young children must never relate to their peers by gender, boy/girl. But reference one another as friend, peers, etc. They are being forced to never recognize the difference. My daughter has begun homeschooling her own kids as the indoctrination is so very recognizable at every level. The innocence in children that build values has been destroyed. Liberalism at it’s extreme allows for behaviors that have become acceptable to most. Atlanta just completed an intersection adorned in rainbow colors to celebrate the “gay community”, tax payer $’s.
              Our children

              And yet so many believe God to be an angry God, yet never recognizing to what degree of filth we have become. Jehovah will most certainly set this level of degradation to it’s complete destruction. I hope I am ready, hope too that he brings it on very soon. Our young are so exposed to this that many find it as just “all normal”. These are the ones we need to chase after to make them understand and realize Jehovahs plan to make their lives and their world modeled in goodness, love, hope, a world of peace, joy and all that mankind could ever hope in!!!

            • Southern ShaSha

              All that is taking place in every facet of our lives and our children shows the full on war between the evil one and our creator Jehovah and His Son Christ Jesus. I believe we are in the climax of this craziness and but one way to go. It will all come crashing down, we must be able to take a position or it’s on our heads as well! Our children must educate themselves and Jehovah will bless them in the gift of life, that is why we must face the challenges Satan sets b/4 them to recognize the safety in Jehovah alone. It’s a fight as children spend the better half of their lives under influences completely contrary to the will and promises by Jehovah. We need to beat our heads a little harder against the wall of evil to help any and all to see the real truth of our very existence.
              So sorry have a problem trying to explain, seriously long winded. But I do feel I’m in true panic mode as I believe it’s all happening sooner rather than later. Sorry guys!

            • Southern ShaSha

              In no way is this in condemnation of any one or anyone’s lifestyle. I’be got all my own baggage and with out the forgiveness we have all been given our rottenness will kill us all. It’s about the influences all around us, and I have to try to fight off with every breath. This is about the youth, their confusion, without the love of Jehovah we are all lost! Faith, love and hope helps us all to change in our actions if and when we became aware what is or is not acceptable in the eyes of Jehovah.

            • The Raven

              Ever feel like you’re on the fairway of a Satanic carnival and every barker along the sides is trying to get you to play their game? That’s how I feel at times. Interesting days we live in, man.

            • Richard Long

              Call it a personal shortcoming, a hangup actually, but it’s the often (IMO) excessive body art that drives me nuts! Not that anybody should care one iota what I think about their personal choices.

            • The Raven

              That never really bothered me much. I never got any. My friends could never get me inebriated enough to do it. It’s the anything goes attitude that gets me. That view of life cost some of them dearly. Not many left.

            • J.M.J.

              I think you are exactly spot on here Burt .It is almost like looking through the bible and trying to find a loophole to make something that is wrong right . JEHOVAH and his ways never change .He never lies and he does not say something is except able if it is not .It is what is admirable about him .He is solid ,and although he is kind and forgiving that does not mean he is allowing wrong or accepting it always .

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks JMJ . I was beginning to think I’m old school!

            • The Raven

              Well Burt we went to the same old school! I also agree with everything you so eloquently stated.

            • Richard Long

              Holy smokes, J.M.J, you nailed it. Remember some time back Black Curtain (legal perspective) made the (I thought) brilliant point that Jehovah is as precise about what he doesn’t say or cause to be written as he is about what he does say or cause to be written? Essentially, should Jehovah say “white is black”, then white would indeed become black. Then we would have two blacks, each observable to us as before at opposite ends of the light spectrum and no white, and chaos would ensue. That one utterance could well collapse the physical universe!

            • Richard Long

              Nigel and I have a have a history of dialog that permits us to be direct. I can assure you that Nigel has my deepest respect and he already knows I view him as a superior intellect and seek guidance from him. Most often that takes form of me presenting a set of Ideas and him showing the scriptural basis for me to measure my ideas against. This is why he felt free to correct me without a huge prologue.

              That my comment was worded in such a way that you, or Nigel, for that matter, might find condescending, I sincerely apologize.

              Regarding Tara and what you have called unkindness. You will notice that upon Joseph’s response to my initial inquiry that I have spoken to and/or referenced Tara in her preferred gender as revealed to me by Joseph. Before that, there was no available indication of which should be used as the only information presented in her comment was her identification as trans-gendered. “It” is entirely proper and neither unkind or kind when one does not know. Rather, the unkindness is thrust upon the one put in the position of having to guess when one removes the militant sense of righteous entitlement (which, by the way, Tara does not come across as presenting) from the equation. Frankly, I find Tara’s gender identity to be the least interesting thing about her, and if that is not the case for any of us, then it says more about us than it does her. I doubt she was offended, but to be safe, the instance you reference has been edited and I will again offer my sincere apologies to her, you and any onlooker who may also found offense.

              On questioning a trusted person whether a person unknown to me is dangerous or not, I must rebuff you here and ask that you set aside your indignity in favor of common sense. If you know and Tara and recommend her as someone who is not a threat to the spirituality of others then do so openly. For one to quote James 3:11 is this instance is misapplied at best and disingenuous at worst. Are you now stating that when one blasphemes in a soft tone with an innocent smile on ones face, the statement is now holy? James was saying that both bitter and sweet words DO often come from the same source, and such is not desirable.

              Regarding my professed Christianity, it has already been established on multiple occasions and by my own admission that I am likely the sorriest example of Christianity available for examination. Even so, as on objective observance absent any defensiveness, for you to apply James 2:13 to anything you have seen written by my hand on this day is gross misuse of scripture and outright slander! Further for one to suggest by the use of James 4:12 that asking one to explain what another has said for community consumption when confused by it is utter nonsense.

              Am I unloving? Probably. I try not to be and fail constantly. For my shortcomings, I sincerely apologize. For running afoul of your personal sensibilities, I sincerely apologize. For speaking my mind I do not.

            • Nigel

              No offence taken whatsoever, Richard! Carry on!!

              🙂

              P.S. I’ll endeavour to get back to your reply asap but it’s time for me to go to bed now…

            • Richard Long

              Somehow I knew that. My detractor just picked you up to add weight to the bracing I was going to get regardless.

          • The Raven

            It is never acceptable to be treated unfairly by anyone and that was the problem with the lesbian and management who sided with her. She made it an issue and used that as her club to get a position she was not qualified for. That was my point. And in reference to be called an idiot, the very people who do this are the ones who preach tolerance …unless you disagree with them. Then you are lower than dirt. This is very clear recently as even the media attacks people who lean more right and the left has been running wild with it. How do I see it?
            Treat folks fairly no matter what. I could care less what they are or what they do with whoever they want. Not my business. But when they use this to further their agenda, that…gets everyone’s attention.
            Do I understand we are all sinners? Of course I do. And Jehovah has final say in all matters.

          • Prodigal One

            You have inspired me to comment for the first time. May your heart be seen and understood by Jehovah. X

            • Richard Long

              The following is what I attempted to post as reply to your original comment, which disappeared. I’m assuming you became anxious and pulled it but I will encourage you to please re-post it.

              Prodigal One, it is my very great pleasure to meet you and considered privilege if you will allow me to know you better. Thank you for sharing your mind and heart on the topic, as I am, frankly in over my head, as my best efforts to develop a full and reasonably satisfactory understanding are undermined by my limitations. For certain, this discussion would be better served with the personal and voluntary input of those with actual knowledge of the precarious journey persons similarly situated to yourself must undertake to in forging your relationship with your creator than by the clumsy although sincere questioning by persons more similarly situated to myself.

              I must say that above mentioned sought for understanding has never been more full or more reasonably satisfactory, nor I more hopeful it can and will grow, than right now, having heard from you.

              Thank you and please be in Jehovah’s love constantly.

            • Prodigal One

              Thank you for your kind welcome. I think the server thought I was Spam due to the long post. I am treading cautiously on here as I respect the order of things . Please believe me when I say that I am not posting to change opinion but only to Inject a very limited point of view that probably only matters to a very small percentage.
              I myself, even through prayer am still uncertain of my position regarding Jehovahs approval, I guess only time will tell. Still I thank Robert for his insights into our collective potential.

            • Richard Long

              I thought your post had great depth, exceeding value and would require no further explanation. I think the effort to re-post it, even if you have to start over, would be well received. As with Tara, when I “see” you I am prompted to think “Surely this person is more pleasing to Jehovah’s heart than I”

              It was here long enough for me to slow type my response.

              Disqus tip: when composing long posts, put it on the clipboard often or compose in a self saving doc and paste it in when ready to post. We have ALL had our “doctoral thesis” eaten by Disqus. lol

            • Prodigal One

              Thank you for your encouragement to re-post, Richard. I will try to do this.

            • Richard Long

              I saw it flash up again, then “poof” your comment count is 5, but only three show on your page. STUPID DISQUS!!!!!!!!!!!

            • Joseph

              Welcome Prodigal One,
              I hope you find inner peace with us , we’ve all been though alot over the years . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4d43d50d17234aa4713ea374fe8a713059f70dd0dbd09c040d5ea61a321ed8f4.jpg

            • I’m glad that I’ve been able to inspire someone ^^ Jehovah sees each one of us for who we are, and everyone here I’m sure is just doing their best to serve Jehovah as they know how. Jehovah has proven to me that he can be all things to all people, despite their shortcomings (and I have a lot)…he’s shown me that he looks past all of that if we come to him with a pure heart and pure motives (or even if we don’t come to him, if we still have pure motives in the way we live our lives, Jehovah is more than willing to be the one to reach out to us, as, again, he has done for me…he was the one that reached out and called to me, not the other way around). I’m simply trying to extend the love he’s shown me to other people. I’m convinced we’ll win people over better if we’re able to break down this stigma of hatred that’s projected onto Christians, and maybe not a lot of people, but any IMO is more than enough reason to begin chipping away at that wall…the problem is that for some reason, many Christians view their sins as somehow less than those of the nations and thus look down on others for that reason, and it shows in the way they talk about people and treat people and in so doing give justification to those who claim Christians are bad people. If we simply stop feeding that fire, then we can truly begin to see who has a correct heart condition based on their acceptance or rejection of Jehovah’s righteousness. After all this time, we’re all still putting stumbling blocks out before others, although, in truth, Jehovah knows the heart and will find a way to reach those who really seek justice in their own hearts, despite those stumbling blocks. I hope that Jehovah blesses your spiritual journey, as he has most certainly done for me.

  • Craig Knight

    When Lot was in Sodom and Gomorrah and the angels showed up to tell his family to flee the city. That reminds me of the world today. Before the hippie movement and free love or free lust more like it. People were more moral and more into God. If a girl got pregnant on a high school or college campus, she was looked down upon and avoided. Since the Beatles and the Hippie movement morals have really gone down into the toilet bowl. TV and movies and magazines etc, slowly brainwash people into believing what is wicked is normal. That’s why it is important to be careful what we watch. Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. So most people do not acknowledge God. If a person doesn’t care about his creator then God gives them up to depravity. The whole purpose of mankind should be to seek out God but Satan has convinced people to seek out power, money, sexual wickedness and everything else that God hates.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I like your point Craig where you mention that Jehovah will eventually let a person go to their own proclivities if we cannot make the effort, through the motive to serve Him, to overcome our problems in sin. He will even provide the way out if we ask him for it to be so….’lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…’ It’s something which I need tattooing on my forehead!

      • Craig Knight

        Hi Burt!
        Sorry for my delayed response. I’m in Oregon at my cabin so I don’t have internet access until I come into town. Anyway, the Devil surely knows what keys to play on us as individuals. He knows what will trip us up and He’s always one step ahead of us. Knowing ourselves and our weaknesses can help us to be on guard and at least have the wisdom to pray for God’s protection. It’s willful practice of sin that gets us into trouble. So we have to ask ourselves is this something Jesus would condone if He were sitting next to us? Here’s a good scripture in Psalms 19:13 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then I will be blameless, innocent of great transgression. I was in the world for 26 years and so I have to stop and rethink everything I do.

    • Dr. Moreau

      Isaiah 5:20

      thats all people are. money makers. all they talk about is money and thats how they think life goes round. money has infected everything and their thoughts.

  • KB

    I never really thought about it the way you described it. Seeing the life they made for themselves on earth, crumble in front of their very eyes. Utter helplessness. Seeing your family die at the hands of the god you’ve turned your back on. It makes since how much the demons and Satan hate anyone who loves and worships Jehovah. The perverse world we live in continues to sink lower and lower. Undoubtedly demonic influences are rampant.

  • Alan

    What do you make of the pyramids and other megalithic structures found all around the world? Are these relics of the pre-flood world? Some of these structures features defy explanation, with some stones weighing hundreds of tons and quarried and transported from hundreds of miles away.

    • Burt Reynolds

      That is an interesting point. The technology used, assuming one believes these megaliths and pyramids needed technology to build them, is not actually advanced in the terms that we understand advanced, such as with lasers for cutting stone, but has existed since Jehovah made the laws that govern them. The use, understanding and application of these laws have been lost to us at some point, such as wireless electricity, best demonstrated by the fluorescent tube, and cutting hard materials such as granite using just water and vibration induced by pitch. Perpetual motion was undoubtably available as were diverse uses of gravity and opposing forces. All of these applications, you may note, are generated pollution free. It is not entirely unthinkable that the monoliths were cut using sound vibration, and you would not need a carbide drill to do so, and the opposing forces of magnetite could be used to float the heaviest articles, as is shown today by levitating trains.

      Though the bible does not describe such tools, it does not mean that they did not exist. The theme of the bible is not concerned with such. But Adam would not have been created a dullard who had to learn how to count, but as a perfect being with eternity in mind. Not only that, but he was commanded to fill the earth and subdue it. Well, subduing a planet and providing for its inhabitants takes a little thought to be sure; food, shelter/homes, water, distribution, transport….we don’t know what was planned, but it is not reasonable to assume a world of gardeners, but of people seeking also to explore the mind and laws of the infinite Jehovah. The laws of Jehovah are natural laws that he created and are already in place. You can cut stone with water and a ring of metal, and appropriate oscillation frequencies in your yard if you want.

      Don’t forget that humans started with perfection and had a long lifespan. Assuming that, intelligence and application, experience and growth would have blossomed. But since that time, we have been rapidly burrowing our way into the basement of debauchery and the depths of depravity. If you examine our ‘advancement’ you can find harm and pollution in practically all of them, from atom to growing the food we eat. Where does that come from? We move away from Jehovah and his laws, not toward them. We are degenerating, not advancing though we think we do. What we are building is a collapsible structure built on sand, a facade of advancement that gives the illusion of progress but is no more than a harmful facet of the lie. My thoughts are just conjecture of course, but bear in mind that Jehovah can turn light into energy, light into food, in just a single cell of a leaf, or create everlasting self replenishing heat in just an atom. You think his creation could not cut stone and build a home from the outset?

      • Richard Long

        Exactly! The thing that hangs me up is timeline. Carbon dating and mass spectrometer shows lots of this stuff to be at least a few more than 7000 years old. Also, the sphinx would have been directly facing constellation Leo about 10,000 BCE. I think the fact Moses never mentioned the pyramids is evidence that this information is irrelevant to the Kingdom or the salvation of Adam/Noah’s decendants. But absolutely fascinating mind candy for sure!

        • I seriously doubt that the pyramids could have survived the flood. The Deluge had the power to move mountains. No way a big pile of bricks could have stayed intact through the cataclysm

          • Richard Long

            Of course you are right. All the earth formations cut by glaciers or the runoff as they receded get similarly dated by scientists, but the glaciers were a result of the cataclysm. Hence the cognitive conflict, right. Too much input from too many sources for a mind to process with any manner of orderliness and not in possession of enough holy spirit to filter it through.

            For what it’s worth, I’m expending just as much energy trying to determine what’s wrong with carbon dating and mass spectrometers! I think science is missing the point that the atoms they are “measuring” didn’t necessarily have their beginning in the exact place or condition as the scientists believe they did. Their refusal to factor God into any equation actually pollutes rather than purifies the science, doesn’t it?

            • The problem with carbon dating is that it operates on the assumption that the formation of C14 in the atmosphere has been constant. They fail to take into consideration that the earth was shrouded in a heavenly ocean before the flood, which, obviously, would have effected the interaction of cosmic rays with atmospheric nitrogen, reducing the formation of C14 or preventing its formation altogether.

            • Richard Long

              According to this article, it has that problem, plus a lot more problems.

              http://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-radiocarbon-dating-and-how-does-it-work-9690

              Staking one’s life on the “science” actually requires a far greater leap of faith than staking one’s life on scripture! Yet we are derided as fools!

            • Cathii D’Anthonii

              Matter is never destroyed, it changes.The rocks have been here since earth was formed, and petrification is changing matter, so how could they date stuff accurately

            • Richard Long

              His point is: They cant. For an example of their admission that they can’t, one can follow the link I posted.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Bricks!

          • Dr. Moreau

            why did Jehovah use a flood to kill people? why torture them and not just turn them to dust?

            • Richard Long

              Wasn’t the whole idea to drive the materialized angels back into the spirit realm? Wouldn’t that require depriving them of ground to stand on? Are we really going to find fault with Jehovah’s chosen form of just execution?

            • Dr. Moreau

              so they could just return again and continued to torture people? you mite recall “we are legion”, hello, Satan ruler of this world. the problem is your mindset of finding fault. its not finding fault but asking questions i want answers to. i know Jehovah is perfect, making the question pertinent. its ok to kill off the people by drowning them but allowing the scum bucket man slayer demons to continue on with their evil ways to this day to corrupt even more imperfect people? humans get put to death but the demons get to carry on corrupting even more humans who would have had a better life without their bs? im not saying Jehovah doesnt know better, im saying i dont know and want to

            • The Raven

              How would it have looked to the other sons of God had Jehovah just wiped the slate clean right then and there and killed the fallen angels and the devil after being challenged? I could hear it now, “Oh so THAT’S how you solve your problems eh?”
              It is of course a matter of principle and free will. We and the angels both have and understand that. But the biggy here is “who has the right to rule” The devil challenges Jehovah before ALL creation including his brothers.

              The people who drowned were given ample warning but chose to ignore it as did the fallen who, IMO didn’t care about their human families at all knowing full well they would survive even after Jehovah pulled the plug. But what they didn’t know was their punishment. They saw what happened to the devil and went full steam ahead anyway. Now they sit in stir unable to materialize but still meddling with creation because of their anger. Jehovah assures us all it will be settled and He has told us how. Remember Job? what was the devil’s argument? He only worships you because you favor him. Jehovah allowed him to be tested severely and Job poor soul even wondered what he could have possibly done to deserve this. He remained faithful and proved the devil was a liar. It comes down to the original lie and that needs to be addressed fully leaving the angels, the demons and all of humanity no doubt whatsoever as to who is the sovereign.

            • Richard Long

              One question, Raven:
              You said: “They saw what happened to the devil and went full steam ahead anyway.” Had anything consequential actually happened TO the devil at this point in time, or should I be thinking what happened WITH the devil, as in the other angels likely were aware of the Gen. 3:14/15 pronouncement? What did I miss?

            • The Raven

              What was the devil’s original lie?
              “You certainly will not die.”
              Yet the angels saw that humanity was now in a dying state and the devil was a despised creature nothing like his former self. It stands to reason his fate would be the same when the issues are settled. They knew Jehovah would not forget about his sin.
              They could not have been that stupid.

            • Richard Long

              I’LL buy that. Should we be thinking of them as stupid, or inexperienced?

            • The Raven

              They were neither stupid or inexperienced. They were fully aware what they were doing was wrong. There is no excuse for them.
              They were here long before we were. They saw creation. They can think for themselves and express joy. The also have the ability to know right from wrong and make choices. Good and bad.
              Job 38:4-7
              4 Where were you when I founded the earth?+
              Tell me, if you think you understand.
              5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
              Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
              6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
              Or who laid its cornerstone,+
              7 When the morning stars+ joyfully cried out together,
              And all the sons of God*+ began shouting in applause?

              Luke2:8-14
              8 There were also in the same region shepherds living out of doors and keeping watch in the night over their flocks. 9 Suddenly Jehovah’s* angel stood before them, and Jehovah’s* glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. 10 But the angel said to them: “Do not be afraid, for look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have. 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city+ a savior,+ who is Christ the Lord.+ 12 And this is a sign for you: You will find an infant wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger.” 13 Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army,+ praising God and saying: 14 “Glory in the heights above to God, and on earth peace among men of goodwill.”*

            • Dr. Moreau

              interesting thought. i would think that it wasnt inexperience that got the others sentenced to death

            • Richard Long

              I think Raven’s reply said it all – neither stupid or inexperienced.

            • Dr. Moreau

              “How would it have looked to the other sons of God had Jehovah just
              wiped the slate clean right then and there and killed the fallen angels
              and the devil after being challenged?”

              you mean like he did with the flood or sodom and gomorrah
              or the ones eating the bird meat in the desert? seemed to do
              the trick then. you know what i do when a rotten mosquito is causing pain to me or others?

              how
              about the angel sons come down here and play human. leave us out of it.
              then when they cry in suffering i will reply sorry how would it have
              looked to me if dad didnt take that b***holes challenge? glad you decided
              to participate in being the imperfect human subjects, now you know.

              there is no question who has the right to rule to any sane person.
              Jehovah
              is the creator of what is and how its works. Satan sure dont have the
              right and that was settled long ago. and even though hes been given rule
              over the world now, i dont accept his crap rule over me. we obviously
              need Jehovah to continue on in peace. are the angel sons of Jehovah
              really that stupid they dont know the answer by now? who really is it a
              biggy too? then that person can run their test away from others that
              already agree what the answer is.

              personally i just want out of
              here and it would be nice to be like Jehovah not subject to the crap we
              live with. its a hundred and ten outside today, i’ll have to turn on the
              AC, and deal with trying to find food away form bad people, oh wait no i
              dont because im Jehovah.

              the people who drowned need put on
              parole without demons ruling over them, corrupting them, making hybrids
              and badness. but i dont know their heart. i dont understand how anyone
              would not want peace.

              “Now they sit in stir unable to materialize”
              i dont really know a scripture that said that. i would assume that too
              for reasons but its assumed. who created the snakes for pharaohs magic
              practicing priests? or was it just a trick of the eye by the men alone?
              seems to me the demons made the snakes and their other copys that Moses
              did and they also could take possession of humans and pigs. so we have
              two things here, materializing living flesh and possession, after the
              flood.

              perhaps some humans do only love Jehovah for that and maybe
              not. thats not a reason to torture them to find out. some will prove
              thats the case and some wont. so what. then you find out that some do
              and some dont. and that could be subject to change in time also. i ask
              myslef that question about myself but i sure dont grow fond of someone
              that stands stir watching someone beat the crap out of someone else when
              they have the ability to stop it. i find that ducks options of me are
              very much influenced over weather or not i have bread

            • The Raven

              I haven’t got a clue what you are saying or where you are coming from man.

            • Richard Long

              That is DA, brother experiencing much personal hardship and the emotional pain that comes with.

            • The Raven

              That’s why he is so angry with God? hmm…

            • Richard Long

              another long and detailed backstory, but a humble man, I believe.

            • The Raven

              I’ll take your word for it, Richard. 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Be you, let him be him. It will all be OK! I think the force of his anger may be proportional, a measure of how much he does actually love Jehovah. Robert has known him some 10 years or so, I think.

              hmmm…. if only you did backstories….. lol

            • Dr. Moreau

              Ephesians 4:26

            • The Raven

              Good verse. Lets take that a little further:

              Ephesians 4:25-32
              25 Therefore, now that you have put away deceit, each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,+ because we are members belonging to one another.+ 26 Be wrathful, but do not sin;+ do not let the sun set while you are still angry;+ 27 do not give the Devil an opportunity.*+ 28 Let the one who steals steal no more; rather, let him do hard work, doing good work with his hands,+ so that he may have something to share with someone in need.+ 29 Let a rotten word not come out of your mouth,+ but only what is good for building up as the need may be, to impart what is beneficial to the hearers.+ 30 Also, do not be grieving* God’s holy spirit,+ with which you have been sealed+ for a day of releasing by ransom.+
              31 Put away from yourselves every kind of malicious bitterness,+ anger, wrath, screaming, and abusive speech,+ as well as everything injurious.+ 32 But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate,+ freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you.+

            • Dr. Moreau

              i figure we are made in his image and he gave us ability to get angry for a reason and that reason not to have something to blame us for and hold over our heads

            • The Raven

              I tend to agree with you there, but we need to be careful and wise about who we direct that towards. Not our brothers and sisters in this fight against the dark forces or God, but the one deserving of it; the devil and his legions. God too has great anger with all the evil ones.

            • Dr. Moreau

              ok

            • The Raven

              I am not going to give you or anyone here the details of my life. Nor do I want to compare notes on pain. Lets just say, I know about it.

            • Dr. Moreau

              i wasnt asking for them. good to know

            • The Raven

              You are not alone in your anguish. I go through days when I would just as soon smack people than smile at them. But I am tempered by my knowing our destination and what awaits us after this Satanic institution we are all stuck in is destroyed. Yeah. I hate it too. We all do.

            • Thinking

              Some of us have suffered enormously DA….at some stage in our pain ..we have to realize we are just drops of anguish that was foretold would exsist in the last days…..
              It’s stinks…it’s rotten and so darn unfair and hugely wrong …The injustice of it nearly breaks one In Two ….but brother…if you keep dwelling on your unfair hurting painful situation…you will surely drown…and you are drowning..
              You are allowing them to win,,,

              We cannot change our sad painful situation as of this time ..I too still cry out in anguish…but you must pray heavily and consistently for Jehovah to step in and help you with resentment and anguish…unless you do this…you will certainly drown my brother..
              In fact when I get like that …when it starts to engulf me..I have to acknowledge I had stopped praying for help with resentments…and so I start praying and he seems to step in and brings it under control…
              It’s an on going prayer I have to keep offering ..otherwise I will be like you..always In desperate pain as to why my own God allowed such things..

              One day we will both look back..and see things clearer…and understand things better..as to why these dreadful things were allowed…but you MUST MUST MUST put the hard work in yourself….pray pray and keep praying ..

              It’s not easy In fact it as hard as hades…but you are being refined in FIRE…and you are still here…I guess still serving….but now try to find some joy..even if it’s a little,…spot now and then…a little corner you can go to and actually feel joy from being one of his servants…
              Do not DWELL on your pain…as soon as I start doing that….I’m gone…I’m down…and it is some thing I have identified as a danger to me…and my spirituality and my mental and emotional health

              We are all soldiers of Christ my brother….we are being wounded very badly..some even mortally…..but we must stagger back up…and in faith…move on…towards our relief…
              You can do this brother…ALLOW your wound to be bandaged ….so you can …it will only heal properly in the New System…
              You need to adjust your thinking…otherwise you will surely drown my brother….
              THEY won’t change ….so you have to…and you have survived thus far…so you have it in you to go that little further ….xx

            • Dr. Moreau

              well maybe you would understand if my comments would stop being deleted or detected as spam or account being banned. unless theres some kind of sin ive committed here how about i be allowed to offer my thoughts as well otherwise theres not point i should bother participating with the watchman’s post anymore. shunned at the hall shunned here too

            • Richard Long

              Disqus has been abysmal this past week, DA. I for one am very pleased see you posting again. Obviously, some of your more robust and disdainful pain-driven expressions on the current condition of your relationship with Jehovah are hard to sit through for some/many. Hang in here, ok?

            • Dr. Moreau

              you know what i do when something is hard to set through? i dont. or i save it for later or leave it for others who can. unless its to mislead others away from learning the truth which then i would take action

            • Richard Long

              Really want to know about the snowflake? You’ll probably think the reason I chose it is pretty dopey! lol

            • The Raven

              This I gotta know…
              🙂

            • Richard Long

              Each unique snowflake is one of the finest examples of symmetry in all of creation.

              British Dictionary definitions for symmetry Expand
              symmetry
              /ˈsɪmɪtrɪ/
              noun (pl) -tries
              1.
              similarity, correspondence, or balance among systems or parts of a system
              2.
              (maths) an exact correspondence in position or form about a given point, line, or plane See symmetrical (sense 2)
              3.
              beauty or harmony of form based on a proportionate arrangement of parts
              4.
              (physics) the independence of a property with respect to direction; isotropy.

              Definitions one and three, though obviously unattainable, seem worth working at, as in “I am trying to achieve balance or equilibrium spiritually”

              or,

              I’m a fat, pasty white guy… you pick. lol

            • The Raven

              I Stayed up to wait for your reply. That’s really cool! It’s been a day, man. Tomorrow…
              🙂

            • The Raven

              They’re not hard at all to sit through. They are not understandable at times for the reasons DA had to explain. Which was not apparent in his first comments to my post.

            • Richard Long

              backstory. lol

            • The Raven

              There seem to be numerous here and that makes a simple conversation turn into a disjointed, time delayed and undecipherable mess. But hey, I try. lol

            • Richard Long

              And all of our personalities filtered through the accursed Disqus overlay! Lay of the land, like it or not.

            • The Raven

              No kidding…

            • Thinking

              Just who are you????? Are you D.A….???

            • Richard Long

              I believe it is.

            • Dr. Moreau
            • Thinking

              Well I’m Wonder Woman so you better listen to me,,..:):):)

            • e.v.g

              I was thinking the same, the wicked angels came back to heaven because they could. When they were in heaven they received the sentence.

            • Thinking

              It’s a good valid question that is asked by so many

            • The Raven

              Good point. I might add that it wasn’t just humans which were corrupted. Noah was told to bring specific animals aboard. Being turned to dust might not have been believable to humanity at the time. Being drowned, however, was. He warned of an event they knew could be possible while he was building a vessel to survive it and yet they still chose to ignore him.

            • e.v.g

              Probably that people were incorrigible, that did not deserve a dignified death.

            • Dr. Moreau

              probably, on the first part. dignified? humm idk

            • Thinking

              I Guess the fallen angels and their off spring chose the weapons of war….death dying and agony……Jehovah fought back with their choice of warfare…
              But I have always wondered the same thing as you…why not a more merciful death…but just as Armageddon …they had to know it was he…Jehovah Our Almighty God and Creator….
              As to why it had to be such a long prolonged death for so
              many ..I don’t understand…it’s very depressing to think about actually…

        • Burt Reynolds

          We know that the half life of carbon 14 was skewed following the solar radiation that was no longer filtered by the heavenly ocean. So no one for sure knows what the half life of carbon 14 was before the flood. I don’t know anything about spectrometers so that may be a factor. What I do know for sure is that Jehovah created the world as we know it just over four thousand years bc. So I’ll put my money on that. I think I would agree with Robert about the pyramids not surviving the flood but unless they were affected directly by the downpour, as perhaps like the Grand Canyon , but by the weight of water undermining the structure. As it is now, it is still accurate to less than an inch I think. Don’t forget that the sun did not shine directly before the flood, therefore one has to ask if the stars would have been seen at all or accurately enough to align structures to them, because the constellations are only relevant in reference to each other and their position. Therefore all constellations would have to be seen to justify alignment. But why? What reason could one have for placing a piece of stone facing a light in the sky that used to be thought was a light shining through a hole in the sky? Was a star visible through the canopy? No idea. But perhaps worth considering, because if that is correct, it throws the reason of the Sphinx position into doubt.

          • Richard Long

            I’m willing to accept that the alignment of the of the sphinx was “staged” after the fact. The heavenly ocean as established fact changes everything, as the entire Giza complex is a reflection of the night sky… the three great pyramids Orion’s belt, the Nile the milky way, etc. none of which were likely to be seen pre-deluge. I think the architects of these monuments had “helpers” who were playing the long con, setting up the dating conflict to erode faith in those pursuing truth. Our greatest vulnerability may well be underestimating the depths and lengths and scope of machinations these rebellious sons of God will employ in order to distract man from cultivating his relationship with Jehovah.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think you’re right about underestimating the demons.

            • The Raven

              I don’t think they were temples, tombs or anything of the sort. Looking at the photos and the structures within the pyramids leads me to think they were some sort of power stations. Maybe it’s because I have done electrical work most of my life but some engineers who took a more objective view of this also agree, they could have been. They speculated that before the flood, given what scripture stated about the conditions of the earth and the firmament above and below, electrical and magnetic forces were very different at the time it and it could have been possible these objects were not what we understand them to be. It’s a curiosity that will only be satisfied completely when the folks who were alive and passed before the deluge return to tell us what they really were. Until then, before the flood, after the flood…I wonder.

            • Richard Long

              Graham Hancock (among others) postulated they were energy related. The design suggests they were tuned for resonance in specific frequency. What do guitars and rockets have in common?: resonance.

            • The Raven

              I’m familiar with his views. I see objects which are not obvious temples or idols as things which may have had some functional use. Not everything was demonic. They could have been built by the fallen or by man with some knowledge long lost. If their purpose was as some sort of energy producer then it changes the narrative. But what doesn’t change is the fact that people weren’t the completely ignorant and savage troglodytes evolutionists expect us to believe they were. On the contrary. I think we’re going to be very pleasantly surprised at how ignorant WE are in comparison to some of our ancestors. Those are going to be some very interesting conversations.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. If anything, schools should replace the theory of evolution with the history of devolution.

            • The Raven

              lol. I had my choice in HS between a typing class or Greek mythology. To this day I type with two fingers, to my niece’s chagrin. Oh well…

            • Richard Long

              My daughter busts my hump for slow typing too. lol

            • The Raven

              LOL! But… I can’t say for certain whether or not some of these oddities were a leap ahead or simply the product of creative minds. There’s really no way of knowing this.

            • Max

              LOL nice post Richard. I think your are right on… The angels gave knowledge to their children that was not meant for them nor for humans to have yet. They took the Lamborghini for a ride LOL.

            • Cathii D’Anthonii

              434 hrz on a stringed instrument is more physically in tune with your body than 440, which is what accepted by the orchestra’s standard…amazing how much we don’t understand.

            • Richard Long

              I am obviously fascinated by the effect of frequency on the body and mind, and equally obviously unstudied. I know the key of C produces different mood than key of A, basic stuff like that. Please share more, if you want!

            • Cathii D’Anthonii

              Glad to share musicology with you.Alot of people like A, especially A minor.There are many modes other than C. C is the basis formula to find the majors , twelve of them. Then there are twelve minor scales, then harmonic melodic, Dorian, Aeolian, Lydian,etc..(.probably 12 modes)..Right now I’m exploring enharmonics on stringed instruments..You might find it interesting too !..Utube it…A good example of it is the Caprice #24 by Paganini, for violin.By the way , I believe David along with Asaph organized the first orchestra

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have seen programmes on the electrical (wireless) capabilities of the pyramids. It seems plausible but I wondered why, if the ancients did have such insight, why they needed something as monsterous as the pyramids. The two technologies don’t really seem congruent with each other. I noted Robert felt the pyramids are post flood due to being unable to withstand the weight or trust of such a flood. I had a look in to that. The Cheops pyramid’s estimated weight is 6,000,000 tons. It was also capped in smooth limestone, reducing drag of course. I suppose that unless it was directly impacted by current, (excuse pun), it may have withstood the increasing weight of water flowing about it, if indeed there was flow at the projected depth. Coincidentally, the entire structure of the nearby Sphinx, also of limestone, bears the marks that geologists say, can only be caused by long exposure to persistent rain. I would imagine that an entire ocean raining down might leave a scratch or two on the surface of stone, such as the Grand Canyon. It depends whether it was under the cataclysm or just the general rise in water. What really gives the game away on these pyramids of course are 1) the on/off switch on the foundation stone, along with 2), the plug socket and the sign saying 240volts only. ( I might add that the riddle over how these things were made with 2.5 to 60 ton blocks was solved only last week on the discovery of an engraved foundation block. George Nephalim and Son. Builders. 1,423 AC -After Creation, not Alternating Current).

        • The Raven

          Carbon dating doesn’t do anything to explain what they were either. I don’t think its reliable and in fact I believe it is a side issue. They will not allow argument on this.They will and have moved the goal posts to fit their theories. I prefer to look at the physical aspects of the objects and see if what they claim is feasible. If not, then some other explanation may work. Maybe the problem is all the experts. lol

          • Richard Long

            The “scientific” dating stuff has already been tossed out by Robert’s explanation of how the firmament would affect C14 in a way the scientists just refuse to acknowledge and therefore account for, along with an article I linked showing science’s own admission to radiocarbon dating’s suspect empirical value.

            My references to radiocarbon and mass spec dating were more in relation to artifacts rather than monuments, and more specifically I had in mind artifacts found on the North and South American continents. You already know where I’m headed. The Mound-builder archaeology is that which you already alluded to as being confiscated and suppressed by officials of the Smithsonian, and earlier I alluded to the fact this was done in support of the inherently evil and empire-oriented Manifest Destiny policy. Since these artifacts are radiocarbon dating way more than seven millennia, I had cognitive conflict, having to back burner the data in favor of the scriptural timeline.

            I think we are dancing between two threads. CATCH UP, MAN! lol

            • The Raven

              lol. OK. The way these comments are appearing it makes it hard for me to figure out who said what when. Sometimes I see all of them, sometimes I see only a few. Sorry if I lose a piece of the conversation. I don’t mean to. I’m trying my best to keep up with all of you. I hate disqus. Truly I do. 🙂

            • Richard Long

              I feel ya! lol

      • Max

        Very good post Burt. I think that one of the key points missing from the history books is that probably hundreds of angels actually lived on earth and created a new race the Nephilim. Now just out simple reasoning we cannot expect that Angels were just to come down to earth to live in caves or adobe houses as mere humans. They were the gods of antiquity and they brought down with them the knowledge of creation. They knew how to separate the atom and they knew what we just now came to know through quantum physic that all we see in this universe is just frequency and vibration and that the solidity of matter is just and effect of electromagnetism but in reality it’s not really solid because matter is only a different state of energy. They knew how to manipulate the physical forces and who knows how much more. They passed all these knowledge to theirs children and they built a world wide civilization probably even more advanced than today’s. We could see the leftovers of this civilization all over the world now there are pyramids all over and the construction techniques seems to be the same or very similar all over the world alluding to a world wide unified knowledge of construction.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Could well be right there max.

      • Huldah

        Insightful and honest. Nice.

    • The Raven

      If I had my choice of the keys to any of the worlds institutions, it would be the vaults of the museums. I don’t mean the stuff on display for the public either. I mean the research labs and warehouses. Not the intelligence agencies, not the vatican, but places like the Smithsonian and their numerous affiliations. The directors and board members are vetted even more carefully than the president’s cabinet. I think the biggest secrets are the origins of man. Why else would governments go to such extremes to protect their narratives? Egypt and it’s head of antiquities is a perfect example. Why else would universities threaten to cut funding and even tenure if you disagree with your “peers”? And God help you if you believe in creationism. They will eviscerate you for that. I don’t know why the pyramids were built or by who but I do know the fallen angels were “gods” and had great power while here. It would explain a number of things found on earth. It’s possible they “aided” man in those endeavors as well. People can get up to a lot of no good given a little help, I tells ya! lol!

      • Richard Long

        Raven, you nailed it. Remember the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark when the artifact was “buried” in the “basement” of the army intel storage facility? That was likely the Smithsonian. John Wesley Powell turned the resources of the Smithsonian against empirical scientific exploration, research, and documentation in order to advance the manifest destiny doctrine. The Smithsonian has and is very much a part of, or an extension of the intelligence apparatus, so you get two for one there. Also, I wouldn’t turn down a month exploring the Vatican’s basement either. Throw in the Museum of London all access pass and you have a trifecta of all the worlds collected “secret” knowledge, all underneath the three cities of the word that are actually city-states or nations in their own right. What a strange coincidence.

        • The Raven

          Although true that the deluge had the power to change the face of the earth it appears to be the glaciers that carved it up over a period after the flood. Much of these relics and artifacts were also found under the sea by government “research” vessels. Things that remain partially standing may also be for the reason that Jehovah had to protect the ark as it rode the angry waters. Those temples and pile of bricks were not His concern and have to this day served as a wonder and maybe even a stumbling block to those who attach great significance to them, (like you know who). I do not. But…human curiosity about the past and the lengths to which TPTB will go to hide the truth does not surprise me.

          • Richard Long

            Robert’s expressed himself on this too. I know you’ll be interested in what he said to me.

            • The Raven

              We all have our opinions on these issues and since scripture is not exactly detailed about certain matters there is room for discussion. That’s not a problem as far as I can see. I think the real problem is in why TPTB have done everything they can to lie and hide a great many things from us. I am interested in the mechanics of these things, although I keep in mind what scripture states.

            • Richard Long

              I admit I’m the dog most likely to jump into a rabbit hole when I see one, full of curiosity, and then terrified once I see what the tail I’ve sunk my teeth into is actually attached to… lol

              In Tolum, Mexico, I saw for myself at close inspection 1/4″ holes bored true through 4 feet of solid rock. I get stone cutting with high pressure water, but those bores have me baffled!

              The big issue for me, now resolved by the inclusion of the heavenly ocean into the equation, has been the “scientifically proved” dating of these monuments and other various artifacts outside the reach of scriptural chronology. Like the placement of the sphinx where it wold point to where Leo was 12000 years ago to give the impression was sculpted then, thereby “proving” civilizations existed before Jehovah’s word says they did. My conclusion is the demons create these conundrums to mess with or otherwise distract men from pursuing the truth. Like Graham Hancock… Brilliant, curious, adventurous, and blind as a stone at the dark bottom of a deep well in the one matter of true importance.

              I am convinced your mind is plenty strong enough to conduct explorations aside from your main pursuit of truth. I know mine is too, its just I’ve always been, or have been since childhood conditioned to be, a person of incomplete heart, separated from myself, one might say. I’m not cautious by nature. I’m cautious because I’ve reached down a hole only to pull back a nub (figuratively, of course) enough times to know better.

              Absolutely LOVE the prospect of being your friend, Raven!

            • The Raven

              I’ve already discussed the firmament. I have never believed the stars had anything to do with this since they could not see them. Look at my comment about what I think they may have been.

            • Richard Long

              This thread is lots more fun.

              Regarding the stars, The ancient civilizations in question were absolutely expert mariners, abundant proof of that exists; and absent some unknown lost tech, then compass, map, sextant and star filled night sky would be what was on hand. I think this evidence goes on the post deluge side of the scale.

            • The Raven

              Yes, I would say it does. It’s a wonder how humanity managed what they did and how much they knew how to do. Look at the masters of the Renaissance. Some marvelous things were created for the benefit of humanity. Unfortunately much of what the most brilliant minds came up with was appropriated by governments and weaponized. It will be so great to see these people again who were ahead of their times. I admire the tall ships a lot and would love to be a member of their crew some day. Now that would be lots of fun!

            • Richard Long

              I think you can do that (for a few more than a few dollars) out of a several seaports on the east coast.

            • Richard Long

              Also regarding the stars. If all of these ancient monuments are part of a system, as commonality in design among other evidences suggest, then their precise placement in relation to Giza (again, absent lost tech) would require latitude and longitude. Again compass, map, sextant and starry night sky. Post deluge side of the scale.

              Once more. All of the aforementioned monuments including Giza, Stonehenge, et al. interact to striking effect with the astronomical bodies periodically at either of the solstices or equinoxes. Post deluge side of the scale.

              I can’t emphasize how much of an intellectual quandary these facts put me in trying to reconcile the accepted radiocarbon dating with the approximate 7000 year scriptural timeline absent the missing factor of the firmament’s affect on the half lives of the three carbon isotopes used in the “scientific” process. The science is simply just absolutely not pure.

            • The Raven

              Not post deluge necessarily. So what if man didn’t see the stars. The demons could.

            • Richard Long

              I will concede that, but you and I will have to disagree on the survivability of these structures with Robert. I think you mentioned earlier some of these might have benefited from some effect of Jehovah’s active force in stabilization of the seas in the vicinity of the ark and I certainly have no counter to that argument.

              For the western hemisphere, and east Asia, however, the monuments not under the current sea level are most often not constructed of hewn stone, but rather dirt piles, some encased in humanly ambulatory stone. Chichen Itza as a prime example. But the entire mound builder culture monuments you and I in the US can drive to just about any day of the week we choose are just dirt piled on top of a stone burial chamber. So these, Post Deluge and probably a somewhat later era than the others.

              Also, regarding demon assistance, two words: Nazca Lines. Has to be, right?

              By the way, have you seen google earth images of the white pyramid in China?

            • The Raven

              I look at it this way; Some of these huge structures were probably from before the deluge and the knowledge of their purpose was lost with the inhabitants of that world. The pyramids IMO belong to that period. The star alignments are heavily disputed and frankly there are numerous theories, none of them completely correct as to whether or not the stars were even an issue in their construction. A simple search on WIKI tells us this. Much of that comes from the new agers and mysticism of only the past few decades.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_correlation_theory
              I agree many smaller and less solid structures are from more modern times.
              The Nazca lines are another curiosity that I believe are post flood. There really isn’t anything very special about them and I have seen some very good theories as to how they were made.
              I haven’t seen the white pyramid in China. I’ll have a look.

            • Richard Long

              The thing about the the white pyramid is,.its a dirt pile, but over a thousand feet high, taller that the original WTC was.

            • The Raven

              It may have been just a tomb built post flood. I don’t know as I am still looking for it. I think the height may be an exaggeration, however.

            • The Raven

              Yep. Neither can I. There are much smaller ones which are well known in China as emperor’s tombs.

            • Richard Long

              Specifically, I meant interaction with the sun and moon, for example Angkor Wat, where from the prime perspective, on the solstices, the sun appears to “climb” up one side of the central dome, rest at the top, then “climb” down the other. Fascinating

            • The Raven

              I remember seeing video of these events as well. I have looked for explanation on these matters and found sometimes the civilizations which built them were very good astronomers but ascribed these passages of the stars, sun and moon to the deities they worshiped. It was hard to decipher what they were telling us unless you dug through their lore. That..was always a pain.

            • The Raven

              Genesis:10-12

              10 He waited seven more days, and once again he sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove came to him toward evening, he saw that there was a freshly plucked olive leaf in its bill! So Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.+ 12 He waited still another seven days. Then he sent out the dove, but it did not return to him anymore.

      • Alan

        I agree, there are thousands of microfiche reports of giant skeletons and skulls that have been confiscated by people from the Smithsonian, etc. There are skulls on display in Peru that are elongated and have non-human sutures. I would love to see the museum vaults too.
        I think they have found many pyramids under water, off the coast of Japan, in the Atlantic and off the coast of Cuba, there is evidence that they were specifically constructed to withstand earthquakes, natural disasters. With the many other mind boggling mathematical features and precise construction and alignment of the pyramids, I think they may be pre-flood. Of course I should probably be reading the Bible more and watching YouTube videos less.

        • Richard Long

          Likes a bit of Graham Hancock, does ya? lol. Fascinating mind on that man.

          • Alan

            Ha! he’s great. So much information out there.

            • Richard Long

              But, still… I’m letting Robert’s be the loudest human voice in my ears…

        • The Raven

          My interest in the matter lies mainly in why they have gone to great lengths to protect their theories. They have destroyed people’s careers to do this. Especially those who dated some of these to much earlier than the civilization which some nations claim to have originated from. What would it matter if the pyramids were older than Egyptian culture? They would not want to be called plagiarists or squatters who lay claim to those works. But a quick search of Egyptologists shut out by the head of antiquities there turns up a great deal of disagreement with this. That can be said for many nations who have to twist themselves up into knots to explain how they made these things. When I look at some of these objects knowing what I do of scripture and a number of other sources it seems to me that we were indeed corrupted by the fallen and evidence of their worship and power remains. I see good reason to think they may date before the deluge. And they were worldwide.

        • The Raven

          I read many of those accounts as well. Most of the folks who found these objects could barely read or write. Many of them were too busy busting their backs trying to eke a living out of their fields when they hit these things. They called their friends, then the nearest mayor, judge or sheriff. They in turn contacted universities who promptly sent out “learned” folks to take the objects for “study”. Only if they were prodded persistently did they even bother with a reply to these folks and then it was to say they were hoaxes, they were still looking at them, they had no idea what they were talking about, they lost them or even as far as claiming they never got them. The hoax part is interesting. When people began finding more and more as towns grew and folks farmed the land that’s when we began seeing real hoaxers and freak shows traveling from town to town. They were caught salting a number of things just about everywhere. There was speculation that some were on the government payroll but I can’t prove that.
          Coincidence? Maybe not. I think it was interference.
          My thoughts on this are not in opposition to scripture at all. In fact much of what TPTB have hidden and lied about actually supports the biblical account. That’s why they go well out of their way to label people who doubt their views as religious nuts or ignorant cryptoids and equate them with idiotic UFO and moon beam children garbage. If they cannot explain it or hide it they ridicule it and those who question. That has been their MO since the establishment of these “higher institutions and National museums.

  • Marisa Gomez

    Excuse me brother Rey,,,,but in paragraph number 6, you mention “invisible rulers of the world are the same poweful angels who left their place in the sky……..BUT,,,,,,,Jude 6….read “they have been reserved under dense darkness”. So if they have been reserved under dense darkness…..How is they rule the world today?
    I am confused.

    • The darkness refers to their mental state. The wicked angles have no enlightenment from God. They have no hope. No future. The world under their influence is in the same condition -alienated from God, no truth, no real hope for the future.

      • The Raven

        It appears the angels, all of them have limitations placed on them. But the demons are actually separated from Him while the faithful remain close. Would that be a correct way to look at this? If that’s the case was this always so or was this something He changed in all of them after the flood? My prior question about a higher motive of the demons who came to earth may be tied to this and I’m curious to know if He did that to all of them to keep any more of them from interfering like before. It’s hard to imagine that powerful beings who saw creation could be ignorant of these things and that’s what makes this so interesting.

        https://e-watchman.com/revelation-jesus-christ/
        “Seeing that Gabriel explained to Daniel that the vision would take place during the final part of the denunciation, why are the angels said to still be desiring to peer into these things? Because evidently they have not been allowed to understand completely.”

      • Dr. Moreau

        i was going to comment about that too. glad you commented that

        • Thinking

          Hmmmm..that’s a good point

  • Bklyn Kevin

    Thrust in a sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
    Come down and tread, for the winepress is full.
    The vats overflow, for their badness is abundant.
    Joel 3:13. Read more.>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/joel/3/#v29003013

    • Jamie Mac

      Hi Kevin, has your move completed yet?. I know you had some issues.

  • Cathii D’Anthonii

    Homosexuality=extinction

    • Izzyman

      The existence of homosexuals has never stopped straight people from reproducing. Unless, of course, you believe that people can be turned gay, in which case I would like to know what can be said or done to any heterosexual person that would convince them to be attracted to and have relations with the same sex. I’m pretty sure the answer from most heterosexuals is a resounding “nothing at all”. The human race will continue and fill the earth just as Jehovah intended, nothing will change that. We are over 7 billion strong at present (soon to take a drastic dip to be sure in the near future due to the great tribulation/Armageddon).

      • Burt Reynolds

        The bible speaks of people being ‘given over’ to their excesses. Though heterosexual people, as you point out, may not engage in same sex relationships, that does not mean they cannot be persuaded to, if they continually engage in loose morals, such as exposure to pornography. People can be turned away from the natural course of feeling, just as easily as they can be encouraged for whatever reason, to turn to thieving. The very ‘forbiddenness’ of it can be a lure. It’s not so much an attraction, more of a desire. You often hear the expression of such entanglements occurring because the person is ‘curious’ . They are not attracted to the same sex, but lustful of sexual gratification. The current population is a mathematical phenomenon or certainty, rather than an indication of sexual orientation, though of course, that also applies.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          well said Burt.! Especially the part when you said ” It’s not so much an attraction, more of a desire. You often hear the expression of such entanglements occurring because the person is ‘curious’.

          Desire leads to sin and death James 1:14, 15.
          But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.
          Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/james/1/#v59001014-v59001015

  • Burt Reynolds

    Did anyone notice that the girls in Roberts photo…the one on the left, and the one second from right, appear to be twins?! Also, look at how thin they are….the days before McFats and the Whopper! Call me old fashioned but those outfits, though a little lacking in style perhaps are nonetheless quite attractive on them. One does not have to avert the gaze for fear of being accused of ‘looking’.

    • Jamie Mac
    • Joseph

      I just got back from the Beach, and it was full of McFats and Whoppers. If I spotted those young ladies I would of thought “escaped criminals” from the local jail house!

      • Burt Reynolds

        Hello Joseph, could you check if you have a virus on your computer please? Every time I try to open one of your videos, my iPad stalls. It doesn’t happen with anyone else. I cant even go onto your discuss page without it stalling. Maybe is a discuss thing or maybe North Korea is targeting you. One or the other! ?

  • Jamie Mac

    Hi Robert, nice article. Many of us have heard our parents or grandparents say. ‘Things aren’t what they used to be’. For example, I would be quite wealthy if I had a pound every time I have heard the phrase, ‘ We never locked our front door back then. Well , we hear elderly folks say this because it is true and very noticeable that times are a changing as Bob Dylan sang.

    Here in the UK there is talk about arming more of our policemen and women. There was a time when the British bobby was armed with nothing more than a truncheon and a whistle.

    We are sinking very quickly in oblivion and only Jehovah can stop the rot.

  • Prodigal One

    I have been an avid follower of the eWatchman, since its online inception. This is my first post as this particular article has moved me exceptionally. Please forgive me, if you feel I should of remained silent.

    I wholeheartedly agree with every word Robert has used here. The world is truly at its peak of imperfection and we are all fall so very short of the ideal. The reason this particular article has prompted me to write, is because it created a shadow that I felt fell on me very hard and brought to mind troubling feelings of discouragement and unworthiness.

    All of us on here are reaching out to a virtual congregation of fellow believers. This is either instead of the actual physical WT led Congregation or, for some, to supplement their association with it.

    My desire to gain spiritual comfort and sustenance on here comes from the reason why I cannot (or shall I say, find it very difficult to) associate in person with God’s Earthly Organisation.

    In Biblical days, Lepers were considered unclean and untouchable. They were not in this situation due to any specific act of sin on their part. They had just been randomly selected through accident of birth to have this disease. This disease born as a result of Adamic Sin.
    As we know, they were forced to live apart from society and their condition was considered to be the worst one a living being could find themselves in. This is what made Jesus’ act of kindness so touching, when he himself chose to touch and heal them or allow their own faith to act as a conduit towards their full recovery.
    Leprosy is repulsive, especially towards people who are blessed with good health. In the same way variances or oddities in the human condition easily provoke feelings of repulse in people who inhabit the normal status quo. This is true, even with people in the World.

    I was an active Jehovah’s Witness for 10 years. from 17-27. I came to the Truth from the World and gave everything up for it including all my family.
    On the outside everything functioned as was expected. On the inside there was a existential battle that consumed every step and conscious thought.
    Without dragging out an already long spiel, let’s just say, I related to a group of people that the above article refers to.

    The World groups these people into the following Group – “LGBT” – which can be explained in the following term.
    “We don’t actually relate to or even accept each other – but this is the only Club of freaks that will have us”

    This article is so topical, as 50 years ago a Bill was assented in the British Parliament ending the “decriminalisation” of Homosexuality.
    Did this signal that the World had embraced these people with open arms?
    No – Even Quentin Crisp was quoted to say on this matter.
    “Toleration has come in a form that is slightly insulting. That is to say one imagined the message, when it came, would read.
    “Forgive us for having for so long allowed our prejudices to blind us to your true worth and cross our unworthy threshold with your broadminded feet.”
    Instead the message now reads.
”Oh come in. The place is a mess. YOU’LL love it.”
    He acknowledged that this lifestyle was only “accepted” because the World was busy doing everything else anyway.

    That was 50 years ago. The World has of course worsened considerably since then. Even so, it still singles out certain behaviours for exceptional discrimination and abuse. Hence the apparent need for these so-called “Pride Marches”.
    Certain Sins are worse than others, especially “Sins” that the majority feel absolutely no urge to commit.
    I know that some Christians will claim to put on the “new personality” and conform, even marrying.
    How truly successful can these ones be? I would argue, as successful as a Heterosexual person forcibly “converting” themselves the other way.
    (I leave that with you to consider)
    I admire them, but all I can comment on is my own experience. Please believe me. I have tried.

    For 50 years I have been celibate. But is even this truly enough? is it enough for some to be “Sin Free”?
    As in the World, certain “Sins” are considered to be more abhorrent than others.
    May I ask you all to honestly examine within yourself the following question?

    When does a Christian Sin when they commit NO sin?
    When do they Sin just by breathing, and being?
    When do they Sin, just by existing?

    The saying may go, “Love the Sinner, hate the Sin”
    From my personal experience, this is easier for Christians to say than to implement. Or at least it is for certain “Sins”.
    A Christian can dedicate their life to chastity and complete rejection of “unnatural urges” BUT in the eyes of humans, because it is perceived, that in their heart they must be “capable” of these especially ‘disgusting’ sins, they are treated as Lepers, even if they have turned their hearts away from the practice of these things.
    The years I associated with the physical congregation were truly wonderful, but at the same time I felt constantly inadequate and judged on a personal level, not for actual sins, but for my assumed predisposition toward them.

    By being different – I was sinning
    By not marrying – I was “sinning”
    By people being aware of me, I was ‘sinning’
    By my very being in existence, I was sinning.
    I was “that” – so I was a “sinner”

    Add to this mix, my own heavy judgement of my condition and of unworthiness
    This led to a decade of depression and constant thoughts of suicide.
    The whole point of this long introduction is.
    There must be many readers on this site who relate in some way to the points made in the above article. Whilst it is true that Jehovah has standards of behaviour that must be met, he also has the same compassion that Jesus demonstrated.

    Whilst it is very easy to show disgust at behaviours that even conflict with our own imperfect human condition of “normalised Hetrosexuality , may we also be mindful that there must also be a number of Christians reading this, who, as a result of many thousands of years of inbred imperfection, by birth fall short of this ideal and are struggling with this battle.

    I long for the day that Jehovah in his mercy, restores me to be the person I would of been, were it not for errors in my genetic make up.
    I can consciously flee from Sin, but I cannot make myself perfect.
    Rightly, or wrongly, I felt there was no place for someone like me in this present System’s Congregation.
    With every breath of my being, I pray that there will be a place for me in the New System.
    For that to be the case I truly need the blessing of a miracle. One that even surpasses the healing of the Lepers, blind and crippled.

    One that actually restores all to a pre-imperfect genetic condition. Not just, re-wirering our brains to be able to cope, which Jesus could so easily of done. No. When they reached out for bread, they were not handed a stone. I pray this is a for-gleam to show us how Jehovah’s hand will not be cut short and that our Faith will not prove to be in vain, but will, in fact make us clean.
    Once restored to full health, there will be a place for everyone in Jehovahs righteous New World.

    Until that day though, I sadly, but understandably, as a realist, feel that there is NO place for those who I consider to be, the “Lepers of our time”.

  • Huldah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIZnSbPYJY
    The Trump Deception: Planned Collapse and World War III w/ Jeff Berwick on Caravan to Midnight

    This is long,but lots of amazing points and lines up with what Robert is saying. If nothing else, listen to what he says at the 31 minute point about the superior character of anyone who is willing to leave behind what they have believed for a long time, in order to support the real truth.
    Lots on
    WWIII
    The elite
    UN world govt
    Satanic control behind those in power
    The Masons
    Numerology

    Great support for the Bible’s words “man has dominated man to his injury”

    • Dr. Moreau

      good video

      • Huldah

        Hi Dr. Moreau,
        Glad you liked it. Jeff thinks outside the box and seems to be in constant search for the real truth. Gotta respect that. This covered eeeveryyyTHING! 🙂

        • Dr. Moreau

          you can call me D.A.
          Robert/Disqus havnt fixed my account

  • Prodigal One

    [Apologies if this post appears twice as I am new to Discus and it classed my previous attempt as being Spam as it was so long]

    I have been an avid follower of the eWatchman, since its online inception. This is my first post as this particular article has moved me exceptionally. Please forgive me, if you feel I should of remained silent.

    I wholeheartedly agree with every word Robert has used here. The world is truly at its peak of imperfection and we all fall so very short of the ideal. The reason this particular article has prompted me to write, is because it created a shadow that I felt fell on me very hard and brought to mind troubling feelings of discouragement and unworthiness.
    All of us on here are reaching out to a virtual congregation of fellow believers. This is either instead of the actual physical WT led Congregation or, for some, to supplement their association with it.
    My desire to gain spiritual comfort and sustenance on here comes from the reason why I cannot (or shall I say, find it very difficult to) associate in person with God’s Earthly Organisation.

    In Biblical days, Lepers were considered unclean and untouchable. They were not in this situation due to any specific act of sin on their part. They had just been randomly selected through accident of birth to have this disease. This disease born as a result of Adamic Sin.
    As we know, they were forced to live apart from society and their condition was considered to be the worst one a living being could find themselves in. This is what made Jesus’ act of kindness so touching, when he himself chose to touch and heal them or allow their own faith to act as a conduit towards their full recovery.
    Leprosy is repulsive, especially towards people who are blessed with good health. In the same way variances or oddities in the human condition easily provoke feelings of repulse in people who inhabit the normal status quo. This is true, even with people in the World.

    I was an active Jehovah’s Witness for 10 years. from 17-27. I came to the Truth from the World and gave everything up for it including all my family.
    On the outside everything functioned as was expected. On the inside there was a existential battle that consumed every step and conscious thought.
    Without dragging out an already long spiel, let’s just say, I related to a group of people that the above article refers to.

    The World groups these people into the following Group – “LGBT” – which can be explained in the following term.
    “We don’t actually relate to or even accept each other – but this is the only Club of freaks that will have us”
    This article is so topical, as 50 years ago a Bill was assented in the British Parliament ending the “decriminalisation” of Homosexuality.
    Did this signal that the World had embraced these people with open arms?
    No – Even Quentin Crisp was quoted to say on this matter.
    “Toleration has come in a form that is slightly insulting. That is to say one imagined the message, when it came, would read.
    “Forgive us for having for so long allowed our prejudices to blind us to your true worth and cross our unworthy threshold with your broadminded feet.”
    Instead the message now reads.
”Oh come in. The place is a mess. YOU’LL love it.”

    He acknowledged that this lifestyle was only “accepted” because the World was busy doing everything else anyway.

    That was 50 years ago. The World has of course worsened considerably since then. Even so, it still singles out certain behaviours for exceptional discrimination and abuse. Hence the apparent need for these so-called “Pride Marches”.
    Certain Sins are worse than others, especially “Sins” that the majority feel absolutely no urge to commit.
    I know that some Christians will claim to put on the “new personality” and conform, even marrying.
    How truly successful can these ones be? I would argue, as successful as a Heterosexual person forcibly “converting” themselves the other way. (I leave that with you to consider)
    I admire them, but all I can comment on is my own experience. Please believe me. I have tried.
    For 50 years I have been celibate. But is even this truly enough? is it enough for some to be “Sin Free”?
    As in the World, certain “Sins” are considered to be more abhorrent than others.

    May I ask you all to honestly examine within yourself the following question?

    When does a Christian Sin when they commit NO sin?
    When do they Sin just by breathing, and being?
    When do they Sin, just by existing?

    The saying may go, “Love the Sinner, hate the Sin”
    From my personal experience, this is easier for Christians to say than to implement. Or at least it is for certain “Sins”.

    A Christian can dedicate their life to chastity and complete rejection of “unnatural urges” BUT in the eyes of humans, because it is perceived, that in their heart they must be “capable” of these especially ‘disgusting’ sins, they are treated as Lepers, even if they have turned their hearts away from the practice of these things.
    The years I associated with the physical congregation were truly wonderful, but at the same time I felt constantly inadequate and judged on a personal level, not for actual sins, but for my assumed predisposition toward them.

    By being different – I was sinning
    By not marrying – I was “sinning”
    By people being aware of me, I was ‘sinning’
    By my very being in existence, I was sinning.
    I was “that” – so I was a “sinner”
    Add to this mix, my own heavy judgement of my condition and of unworthiness
    This led to a decade of depression and constant thoughts of suicide.

    The whole point of this long introduction is.

    There must be many readers on this site who relate in some way to the points made in the above article. Whilst it is true that Jehovah has standards of behaviour that must be met, he also has the same compassion that Jesus demonstrated.
    Whilst it is very easy to show disgust at behaviours that even conflict with our own imperfect human condition of “normalised Hetrosexuality , may we also be mindful that there must also be a number of Christians reading this, who, as a result of many thousands of years of inbred imperfection, by birth fall short of this ideal and are struggling with this battle.

    I long for the day that Jehovah in his mercy, restores me to be the person I would of been, were it not for errors in my genetic make up. I can consciously flee from Sin, but I cannot make myself perfect.
    I felt there was no place for someone like me in this present System’s Congregation.
    With every breath of my being, I pray that there will be a place for me in the New System.
    For that to be the case I truly need the blessing of a miracle. One that even surpasses the healing of the Lepers, blind and crippled.
    One that actually restores all to a pre-imperfect genetic condition. Not just, re-wirering our brains to be able to cope, which Jesus could so easily of done. No. When they reached out for bread, they were not handed a stone. I pray this is a for-gleam to show us how Jehovah’s hand will not be cut short and that our Faith will not prove to be in vain, but will, in fact make us clean.

    Once restored to full health, there will be a place for everyone in Jehovahs righteous New World.
    Until that day though, I sadly, but understandably, as a realist, feel that there is NO place for those who I consider to be, the “Lepers of our time”.

  • muldoon55 .

    I often wonder if demons were able to pull the same trick of materializing after the flood and spawning violent giantlike offspring
    I mean what explains the rephaim,king og, the six fingered six toed freaks of the Phillistines
    You can’t tell me that they were descended from one of Noah’s sons
    The literal DNA (seed )of Satan must exist in some humans today
    Why look at the twisted minds of people such as Nathan Rothschild,the Rockefellers
    ,Clintons, bushes, the inbred nincompoops aka British royals the list goes on and on.
    They all have the same agenda,
    world domination (globalism) at any cost and population reduction and they are all satanists

    • KB

      There are certainly a lot of fossil records and unexplained things that make one wonder what’s going on here. Many unanswered questions that could very possibly have demonic backing.

    • Richard Long

      If one wanted to go waaaaay outside the box, one might postulate that some particularly slippery demons were inventive enough to materialize themselves with aquatic respiratory systems, but I shudder to think about it!

      Not really knowledge required for salvation, though, so I’m choosing to back-burner it. lol

      • Burt Reynolds

        It’s feasible fallen angels did that! How many men have mistaken a cold fish for a woman! (Sorry sisters. I can’t help myself at times!).

        • Thinking

          Hahah cold fish hey..lol….better than being called a whale I suppose…:)

          • Burt Reynolds

            I can’t believe I got away with that! Better be on my best behaviour for a week or two!

        • The Raven

          Groan…..lol!

        • Richard Long

          ROFL. I think that one can quite effortlessly reverse genders in that quip and let the sisters have a good laugh, too!

    • The Raven

      According to scripture they cannot do that as they have been confined in that respect. Noah and his sons were not perfect. Just because they lived before the flood doesn’t mean they were immune to the effects of original sin. That did not go away and continues to this day. Everyone alive at the time was also prone to the degenerating affects and probably a host of congenital diseases as well. But since they were not as far out from perfection as we are, they may not have had as much and their lifespans were certainly much greater. Many of those things are seen in giantism, dwarfism, six fingers and toes, missing limbs etc. Even animals give birth to freaks. Until we are set straight that’s what we live with, as did they.

      • Richard Long

        On the question regarding the transmission of Nephelim DNA into the post deluge world through Noah or his family? Any thoughts?

        Isn’t DNA actually a universal “breaker box”, with each species’ characteristics determined by which “switches” are in the on or off position? (Obvious oversimplification)

        • The Raven

          Is there any evidence the Nephilim could reproduce? And why would Jehovah choose a polluted lineage if he were going to produce the promised seed? Certainly He would not want any trace of those freaks in His Son.

          • Richard Long

            Hybrids generally do not reproduce, to my knowledge. But if the rebels made for themselves human bodies, and mated with human women, one has to ask what was different about the human DNA of a materialized human body compared to a procreated human body so that they produced such predictably different results. Do we suppose the rebels were expert or novice in these procedures?

            • The Raven

              Scripture says they mated and had freaks. Those freaks and everything else died. I don’t think Jehovah would have permitted that level of manipulation given he had to protect at least one line. Noah’s.

            • Richard Long

              And that would require the protection of 5 lines, right? Noah’s, His Father in Law’s, and the Father’s in Law of Noah’s three sons?

              Or, is the “purity” of the females’ lineage inconsequential, DNA wise?

            • The Raven

              That may be a very strong possibility since He had a plan from day one. I don’t doubt He kept whatever lineage He would need clean.

            • Richard Long

              Your thoughts on the possibility brought forth in the add on?

            • The Raven

              Since I don’t see evidence for nephilim or fallen angel DNA to have survived the flood I don’t think it matters. But Jehovah can and has done whatever needs be done. Most of which we are STILL trying to understand! lol!

            • Richard Long

              I think we’re simpatico. I’m not challengeing any position, just really enjoy seeing how your mind works! lol

            • The Raven

              Yours is quite interesting too! It helps to understand these things when folks explore different avenues of thought. Granted we get off on some very weird tangents but somehow manage to arrive at the most reasonable conclusions if we can know a thing. If not…we leave that up to those with greater insight, such as Robert or just wait for all the secrets to be revealed when His kingdom arrives. The keys to the the vaults… lol!

            • Richard Long

              Yeah!!! Look at us yammering on about DNA like we have more than one iota of accurate knowledge on the subject!!!!! I hope I’m only rediculous and not dangerous! lol

            • Burt Reynolds

              Can you have purity without perfection? I think the bible says noah was chosen because he was a righteous soul. If that were the case, he was used ‘as found’. As for the Nephalim, we know that kinds cannot interbreed with other kinds, and that even between what might be called types within kinds, horses and donkeys, sterility is the result. Thus the fallen angels would presumably had an exact match in DNA, but whether this was pure within that match, is debatable. I don’t know if the offspring were sterile or not. That there were some difference in the DNA seems correct in that the sprogs were consistently Giants, and consistently evil; mighty slayers I think they were called. There again, the equation is uncertain as when Christ was born of Holy Spirit, he was a perfect representation of humanity. Now Jehovah became dismayed at the state the earths population, and regretted his creation of them, not least because of the angelic fallen ones and their offspring. Assuming that Jehovah did not interfere with that process, one could safely assume that the Nephalim were genetic mutations. Having said that, if an angel could create a body, they must have a full comprehension of how to do so, and thus could manipulate its structure, just as we can do today. I don’t suppose for one minute that it’s important, but spirit life is a facinating subject to be sure.

            • The Raven

              It is a fascinating subject and they are just as curious about us as we are of them but Jehovah does not permit them to understand all things concerning His relationship to us. That, must be for a reason.

            • Richard Long

              After a day of stewing on it, I’m more persuaded that the “purity” of the blood, DNA, or any other biological mechanism is inconsequential. The promised seed came through Abraham, who was certainly not “perfect” biologically nor spiritually, just “righteous” as declared so by Jehovah. The act of His saying so MADE it so. Isn’t this also very much like the way we see Israel. Physical Israel (a bloodline) were the heirs to the kingdom because Jehovah said so, and then they were’t and Spiritual Israel was because Jehovah said so. Can’t it be just that simple?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Probably!

            • muldoon55 .

              Makes sense

          • muldoon55 .

            That’s a great point

          • Burt Reynolds

            There is actually genetic proof that the Nephalim DNA survived the flood…..Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, George Dubya Bush…not sure about Teresa May…I don’t think she can help it, but definately Wayne Perkins from down town Detroit.

            • muldoon55 .

              And then there was Janet Reno

            • The Raven

              Oh geez! And that one too! lol!

            • muldoon55 .

              Lol

            • The Raven

              LOL! Well, you win! I can’t argue with that! It does appear some folks are miscreants, sad to say!

      • Dr. Moreau

        i wouldnt think they took on flesh the same as humans flesh for reason the women bore hybrids. if they took on flesh equal to, then there wouldnt have been a difference in their children

    • Burt Reynolds

      Egad sir! British Royals inbred! Nincompoops! We thought no one knew! A gentleman would never say and would always keep that sort of thing in the family!

      • muldoon55 .

        Gotta keep those blood lines pure

  • Joseph Stephan
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