King Saul – A Type of the Evil Slave

//King Saul – A Type of the Evil Slave

Saturday, January 28

Let me pin him to the ground with the spear just once, and I will not need to do it twice.1 Sam. 26:8.

When Abishai crept into Saul’s camp, he did not have his loyalties in the proper order. Out of loyalty to David, Abishai was eager to kill King Saul, but David restrained him, realizing that it would be wrong to lift one’s hand “against the anointed of Jehovah.” From that incident, we learn an important lesson: Although we can properly have several loyalties in our heart, the correct order of their importance should be determined by our application of Bible principles. Loyalty springs from the heart, but the human heart is treacherous. Thus, one who is loyal to God could easily feel strong ties of loyalty to a close friend or relative even if that person is practicing what is bad. Especially when someone close to us abandons the truth must we remember that Jehovah always merits our primary loyalty.

COMMENTARY

There are Bible principles a-plenty that we can apply to any and every situation in life. But it is important to fully understand the dynamics of the account in order to make the correct application of the principle.

On more than one occasion I have had Jehovah’s Witnesses cite the two occasions where David had the opportunity to kill Saul, but he refused, saying that it was unthinkable on his part to personally thrust out his hand against the anointed of Jehovah. They applied that principle to my work, implying that I have disregarded the sanctity of the anointed leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses and thrust out my hand against them in criticism. Such an application, though, does not take into consideration that Saul was a presumptuous king, deserving of death; and in fact, God ultimately abandoned him to a most inglorious end at the hands of the Philistines. However, the full application of the David/Saul saga yields some interesting parallels. 

First, though, the Watchtower article upon which the day’s text is based applies the principle in a much different way. The loyalty that David displayed by not killing Saul when the opportunities presented themselves can be imitated by Jehovah’s Witnesses by their strictly adhering to the Watchtower’s policy of shunning disfellowshipped loved ones or those who simply no longer wish to be known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Interestingly, there is a similarity. Saul had originally accepted David into his family, giving him his daughter in order to form a marriage alliance. And his son, Jonathan, formed a strong bond of friendship with David too. Keep in mind, that although Saul was the anointed of Jehovah, David had been anointed afterwards and that was why the shepherd boy was empowered by Jehovah’s spirit to slay the hulking giant, Goliath.

Naturally, Saul came to view David with suspicion even though he realized that Jehovah was with David, which became apparent when David paid twice the dowry Saul had imposed, providing 200 foreskins of dead Philistines, instead of the 100 demanded by Saul.

In time Saul became more erratic and unreasonable. He was determined to hold onto his kingship by any and all means necessary —even murdering his son-in-law. But Jonathan remained loyal to David, even though he knew that it would mean that he would not be heir to his father’s throne. To be sure, Jonathan’s loyalty to David is the real lesson.

After David fled and met up with Samuel, Jehovah’s priest and prophet, Saul sent three groups of messengers to apprehend the fugitive. But instead of taking him into custody Jehovah’s spirit came upon them all and they began behaving as prophets, whatever that entailed. Finally, Saul personally came to kill the anointed of Jehovah, but he too was overcome by God’s spirit and began behaving as a prophet, so that he stripped off his royal garments and lay naked on the ground all night.

Eventually Saul directed his wrath against his own son for his remaining loyal to Jehovah’s anointed. In other words, Jonathan refused to obey his father’s command to cut off his friendship with his family member. (David and Jonathan were by then brothers-in-law by virtue of David’s marriage to Michal, Jonathan’s sister.)

Saul well pictures the evil slave of Christ’s illustration. Interestingly, after Saul had gained victories over Israel’s enemies he presumptuously pushed ahead and instead of waiting on Samuel the priest, he offered up a sacrifice to Jehovah. This reminds us of the Watchtower’s presumption in not waiting upon the High Priest, Jesus; instead, declaring that Christ has already returned and poured out his blessing upon them.

In Christ’s illustration the evil slave begins to associate with the drunkards of the world. This has played out with the Watchtower’s hypocritical affiliation with the United Nations and their hobnobbing with the high rollers of the financial world. Saul’s visit to the witch of Endor and his resorting to necromancy may have a future parallel with the coming of Christ, when the man of lawlessness shows himself to be a god, employing Satan’s uncanny power.

The evil slave begins beating his fellow slaves too. This is reflected by the Watchtower’s relentlessly pushing Jehovah’s Witnesses to do more and more. And in their increasingly stringent demand that JW’s have no contact with family members who may be disfellowshipped or disassociated – just as Saul berated his own son and daughter for their continuing to support David. (While the principle of disfellowshipping is certainly valid, there is nothing in the Scriptures that requires Christians to shun their parents or children.)

As for behaving as a prophet, the Watchtower boasts that it is the prophet —laying claim to being the two witnesses, the Ezekiel class, the Jeremiah class, the Micah class, etc. And certainly God’s spirit has come upon them, exposing their naked condition —just like crazy king Saul. This is reflected in the fact that nothing the prophet class has published is true. 

Remember, too, when Saul was first anointed to be Israel’s king he was genuinely humble. But in time he grew more and more prideful and presumptuous and eventually turned his back on Jehovah altogether. Saul was not content that David was crushing Jehovah’s enemies wherever he went. Saul wanted the glory for it and could not countenance any praise going toward David. Because of his bad heart Jehovah’s bad spirit came upon him.

Similarly, the Watchtower had a humble beginning. But over the years it too has developed a proud and haughty demeanor. It is not content to merely publish Bible-based material and offer encouragement and support to Jehovah’s Witnesses. It demands to be glorified as Jehovah’s untarnished and infallible mouthpiece. It seeks to dominate all of those who have been anointed. It countenances no rival and will judicially kill any and all who dare to question its holiness.

Eventually Jehovah took Saul out and David became king. Likewise, in time the evil slave will be exposed. Like Jannes and Jambres, his madness will be plain for all to see. Then Jesus will exalt a new leadership to the fore. Then the greater David will impose a test of loyalty upon all of those who previously supported “Saul.” 

No wonder the Watchtower no longer considers types and antitypes valid. 

 

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2017-01-28T10:36:57+00:00 January 28th, 2017|Commentary|190 Comments
  • bobby6343

    WOW! I had to read the account for myself. It makes sense. Jehovah is truly at work for all of those who truly wants to be loyal to him and not to an Organization or its leaders in first place, that has in time gone corrupt. Thanks bro.

  • deep

  • Victor Field

    If the Good News/Sacred Secrets/Testimony/Song,,all four being titles of the same thing,,.
    Are revealed, to those taken into the Marriage Feast,that takes place as we know from scripture during the GTribulation
    Then this gives rise to asking ourselves a very serious question
    “Who are we being guided by at the moment, in the Truth of the Truth”
    When the Truth of the Truth only appears at the end of the GTrib/Trial period?.

    • Cocheta

      the unfaithful & indiscreet slave is guiding us, which is why we absolutely must look to Jehovah & Jesus as our only guides through the pages of the Holy Scriptures!

    • rajan

      although Saul was the institutional king of Israel, David was the king in waiting.
      Similarly here brother Robert is an anointed king in waiting whilst the watchtower society is the ruling authority for the moment. Jehovah God is still using them for his purposes but His patience is running out. When the Lord Christ comes he will bring together the faithful ones from there and those that are on the outside here with Robert King being a recognised watchman.

      • Victor Field

        Something you have missed on your reply in answer,,,The greater fulfilment of King David is Jesus,,Not the 144,000

        • rajan

          Sure Lord Jesus is to rule forever as the son of David. I am referring to the situational aspect of David and Saul and how this relates to the current positions of the watchtower society vis a vis Robert King and his band of supporters here

          • Victor Field

            The current position and the stand of the Watchtower is a rebellion against Jehovah himself, they stand in direct opposition of the coming Kingdom.
            They are currently residing in a Holy Place,,the one to remove them is no other than Jesus Christ and his selected chosen the 144,000.

            So going back to my first message,,according to what Bro Robert teaches, nothing the False Prophet(JW’s) teaches is true,Why,,and how can he say this,,Robert is under the understanding that Christ has not returned yet,.,And the GTribulation is on the near horizon,,

            • Cocheta

              “let the reader use discernment”!! Matt 24;15

            • Victor Field

              This is so true and a good reminder,,Has time been cut short in a way we did not see or realise!?

            • Cocheta

              I am beginning to think so, Brother Victor, to be realistic here, we have already seen the ‘signs’ i.e. wars & reports of wars, famine, pestilence, etc., the love of the greater number has cooled off (probably more witnesses have left the Org than are still in it) Many have been stumbled & betrayed as is observable by the amount of shunning & disfellowshipping going on – all these things are a beginning of the pangs of distress.

              Then people will hand you over to tribulation & will kill you (according to the WTS if you are disfellowshipped you are automatically given a death sentence to be carried out at Armageddon!) Many false prophets have already arisen. The good news of the Kingdom is more or less completed throughout the known world according to the WTS ….. & then the end will come.
              I firmly believe that there cannot be a WW3 because it would be most definitely a nuclear holocaust & would wipe out the whole of humanity, (logically it would have to be a total wipe out, because neither side would admit to defeat) so Jehovah has to cut those days short before the war erupts, on account of the chosen ones otherwise who would be left to give a final witness to?

              It would make Jehovahs job of annihilation so much easier just to let the nations frazzle everyone to dust, but how could the prophecies at Ezekiel be fulfilled.”they will have to know that I am Jehovah” there would be no-one left to know!

              I realise that the CG Scriptures were written primarily to the Chosen Brothers of Christ, but the great crowd has to pay attention also.

              Look at the days of Noah, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, families were popping down to Walmart or Asda for their weekly shopping, kiddies were off to school (you get the picture!) & all the time an Ark was being constructed, people thought it was kinda strange but obviously got used to seeing it & after a time paid no attention & then suddenly the door to this Ark was firmly closed by Jehovah…. dah, dah, dah, dah….7 days later the rains came!

            • 1914for100Alex

              Hi Cocheta, you had stated “I firmly believe that there cannot be a WW3 because it would be most definitely a nuclear holocaust & would wipe out the whole of humanity…” I agree that a full blown war would lead to a complete destruction of our planet, but I still think we’re in the “you ain’t seen nothing yet” phase of things. Sure, there are things that are getting worse, but not to the point that they would need to be cut short already. If anything is to be cut short, it’s going to be something that gets everybody’s attention.

              I hope my next point comes out right. It’s about the statement: “Then people will hand you over to tribulation & will kill you (according to the WTS if you are disfellowshipped you are automatically given a death sentence to be carried out at Armageddon!)” I don’t think it is meant to be looked at from the perspective of the Watchtower, and what they consider a death sentence, but instead from how Jesus saw things panning out. Could it still be figurative in the sense that by turning people in, they’re “killing them”? I think so. Jesus says it’s going to happen, so I think we have to take it literally( as in one way or another people will be killed), as opposed to basing it’s meaning on a false doctrine. Does that make sense?

            • Cocheta

              a very quick reply, Alex, so you know I haven’t missed you. I don’t believe there will be a war. Jehovah is working things out behind the scenes to avoid that, if not we wouldn’t have Mr Trump as your President now & we would have Ms Clinton & in all likelihood the first move would already have been made in the war. I believe that Mr Trump will be the one to bring a certain amount of stability to the whole situation.
              Have you considered, & this might sound very strange to you, that we may already have gone through the worst of the ‘birth pangs’?
              Do you think that the Trib started at the time of the Twin Towers going down? I never thought so, in fact our Joel asked the same question & I said no but if you read Isaiah 30:25 you clearly see it & then the whole of the chapter you will gain more insight.
              It might seem to stretch the imagination somewhat, but we must keep an open mind, my mind has been opened considerably in the last week since making my disassociation decision & asking for Holy Spirit to teach me.
              I know Bro Robert states that there will be a war, but I somehow doubt it, although he presents a great case & teaches us much to ponder & learn from as we go forward in the Knowledge of Jehovah. I think that is satans ploy to keep us all from seeing the real truth.
              I understand that the message from the Bible is to the chosen class, as we know, & therefore any Trial would come only upon them & Jehovah’s complete earthly organisation as it has in the past. Other nations were of course involved in the Israelite history but it was mainly against the Israelites themselves that Jehovah acted either for or against them because they then were His chosen race.
              Today the people involved in His organisation are the JWs et al & so this is where we must look for any punishment to be meted out.
              Therefore the statement at Matt 24:21 is for all involved & not necessarily the rest of the world, although they will be ultimately destroyed as were nations against Jehovah of old. But not in as viciously cruel as a nuclear holocaust.
              We have seen from Bro Roberts teachings that satan is pulling the strings & will cause a major detour for us all, either chosen or not, so that we are all too concerned about a major world upheaval to even notice that Jesus has in fact come to power & the House of God is already being judged. (sneaky or what, causing even the chosen ones to be deluded if possible!!???)
              Enough for now, I have online work to do, but I will gladly wait for your reply to me, I always enjoy debating with you, Alex.
              I expect many people will shoot me down in flames over my new beliefs, but as I said I have had my mind thoroughly washed over in the last week.
              We all have an awful lot to learn yet & it will all come as a major shock to us. We must remember that by getting out of the WT frame of mind we do well not to fall into the trap of getting into a frame of mind other than that of Jehovah & our King Jesus. It will all come out in the wash 🙂

            • LW

              “Spiritual” perception 😉

            • Cocheta

              You got it, Bro, wait for the fat lady to start singing, LW, she is in the wings now. Things have been happening quietly without us even realising it, I am certain of that.

            • LW

              Right and it’s almost like alot of other Christians as well as non Christian people are expecting this huge catastrophic event to mark Jesus coming back..but..is that how Jesus said it would be?

            • 1914for100Alex

              Off the top of my head, I believe he said “without striking observableness”. Good point.

            • Cocheta

              I was about to say that he said he was coming without striking observableness, LW, but I saw that Alex has already said it & he hit the nail straight on the head there.

              Listen to your heart, LW, there is no-one else can do this for you except that still small voice inside you that has been taking you along this road, that still small voice of God (Christian song words there I stole because they are so very fitting)

              I begged & begged & begged Jehovah for understanding & I got it, now I can see very clearly where we are & I wake up crying with thanks to Jehovah every day. The Truth is waiting in the Scriptures ready to poke you in your eye when you see it.

              “Raise your eyes high, your deliverance is getting near”

            • 1914for100Alex

              Hi Cocheta. I enjoy our debates too 🙂 As far as 9/11 is concerned, I think it plays a part in all of this, but only as one of many pieces of the puzzle. In the grand scheme of things, it was 9/11 that led the U.S. into Iraq and started the so called “War on Terror”. I have to believe that the mess we’ve made of the Middle East will play a major roll in the Last Days, but I still don’t think we’re there yet. I’m not up to Isaiah yet in my Bible reading, so I can’t comment much on the scripture you referenced, but I did read it and it is interesting that it mentions towers. Actually, I read the entire 30th chapter, but I have to admit it’s out of context for me. I did get the sense though that it’s written specifically for God’s people, and that he’s referencing things that will happen specifically to them. I get that the towers falling is just a reference as to when some of the things in chapter 30 are to happen, but I don’t see how they’ve happened yet. Could you expand on that?

              I agree that it’s always a good idea to be on the watch for Satan trying to trick us, and not to get too comfortable in our interpretations of what prophecy could mean. We should always keep testing that our beliefs still make sense. Running them by people here is a good way to do that in addition to studying the scriptures and praying for understanding. I pray for understanding before I start reading. I even borrowed a phrase from Beverly who said one day her love for the truth and wanting to share it went nuclear! Yes, I actually pray that I can have a full understanding so that I can do the same thing 🙂

              In regards to Matthew 24, I have to disagree. I don’t see how the things mentioned throughout would only affect God’s people. We have to remember that this isn’t the old days. Back then, God’s people were punished, but life went on. For them, and the nations surrounding them. This time is different though. This is it. Jehovah has had it, and everyone is going to know it and feel his wrath. The love of the truth in a time of complete confusion as well as destruction is what will separate his true followers from the fake ones. Only terror will make them see.

            • LW

              Hi there, if it’s ok for me to chime in, I want to mention that this is why being spiritually awake is
              important.

              When things go south, it’ll be obvious then, but as Jesus said “that day will come upon you as a snare” if we are asleep.

              So while yes, everyone will know and realize what is happening, it may not necessarily be such a major commotion.

            • 1914for100Alex

              By all means, feel free to comment on any of my posts. You’re way more familiar with the scriptures than I am and appreciate anyone’s input. I’m still working my way through the Hebrew scriptures, and while I’ve read several of the prophetic books in their entirety already, it’s been out of order, and therefore, to a certain degree out of context. I can certainly agree to the idea that there are things that may be playing out in front of us. I’m always up for hearing other people’s opinions and discussing how it relates to scripture.

            • “…and the world was not worthy of them. They wandered about in deserts…”

              sigh*

            • the scripture says “scheme schemes”, plural. (Daniel)
              9/11 was a inside-job that served eliet purpose just as the previous schemes of the imperal dark forces.
              the “day of slaughter” isn’t the twin towers falling.

            • i would think Mister Trump’s actions of “stability to the whole situation” is provocative in bringing about the foretold “pushing” that happens “in the time of [the] end”

              are we already in the time of the end?

              perhaps wait for more “stability” or peace and “security” then see them pull the plug and crash things causing civil unrest. by then we should know (i would hope) we are “in the time of the end” fully noticing the pushing action against the north causing the northerner storm. that will be your war.

              i have other passive thoughts as well

            • Southern ShaSha

              D.A. If not to personal, could you share your other mixed passive thoughts. Explain please 8th installment/8th King, are you meaning admiration by, for the most part, the worlds admiration?

            • i would have typed them if i understoid better what i was thinking. just the other thoughts of the order in whitch things unfold. but i have to refresh my mind and understand scripture better on the subject. but Cocheta touched on some of my thoughts about the time frame of prophetic events i noticed as i only skimmed through her comments. but nothing really mentioning but just stating im thinking other related stuff beyond what im typing and if later when with those thoughts better put together maybe worth mentioning i will say hey blah bla blah

            • Southern ShaSha

              Thank you D.A., would be very interested in hearing those thoughts!

            • have you watched all of Robert’s videos?

            • Southern ShaSha

              Yes D.A. I have watched them all, many times over.

            • ok good. you keeping up on current news?

            • Southern ShaSha

              Yes, I sure do. D.A., the scriptures have taken a whole different meaning, when we discover the marvels of bible prophesy. Is’nt it amazing when we align bible prophesy to what we see taking place on the world stage? Jehovah through is loving kindness provides the answers we are all seeking, if we continue asking! He provides hope in a world that has completely gone mad. I too wonder if we are living very near or “in the time of the end”. Now!

            • Cocheta

              yes, DA, we are already in the time of the end, in fact we are deep in the time, very deep.

            • like he has 1914, Satan operates in the realm in which he rules over, this wicked earthly system, by foolery in making things look as if there is a prophetic connection to God’s word even using what likely is related in some truth. trusting in Jehovah and not leaning on our own understanding really does us good while the scripture also encourages us to use our powers of discernment

            • ELiJAHx7

              I thoroughly enjoy your insightful comments Sister!

            • Burt Reynolds

              It’s heartening to see you don’t feel a Third World War will come. (Do you know my iPad automatically put that in capitals now, it must be used a lot!). Yes, I hope the same, but expect the worst, namely because the discriptions in the bible certainly could be taken as evidence of such,….darkening of sky, sun, moon darkened and the amount of dead, and secondly, Jehovah has the power to control the atom, the outcome. Even a limited nuclear war would cause, or could cause a total wipe out of all life, such is their power. But yes, let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. What I fear more is everyone shopping at Walmart. Now that’s desperation……

            • Cocheta

              WW3 would be preferable to Walmart I think, Burt, but no, there will not be a war. We need to study the Bible more to see the truth of those descriptions, my Brother.

            • Burt Reynolds

              What then..,do tell about the descriptions. I want to know. Where do I look? Thanks.

            • Cocheta

              I’m not going to clutter up this board with explanations, Burt, in order not to frustrate others. I will FB chat with you later.

            • Southern ShaSha

              Cocheta, please clutter up the board, many more other than Burt are interested!

            • read up on the Chaldeans then think again.

              Hear the noise on the mountains! Listen, as the vast armies march! It is the noise and shouting of many nations. Jehovah of Heaven’s Armies has called this Walmart stampede. no?

              look at the recent/current wars in other countrys then remember the king of the north will storm the south, that will be a day of slaughter

            • Cocheta

              DA, read 2 Thess ch 2, it tells you quite clearly. If you can see who is the Man of Lawlessness & the Disgusting Thing standing in a Holy Place, then you are on the correct path. But, you need to discern the Disgusting Thing before you will be able to understand anything else. Look closely to see who is the Restrainer & what happens to him. Then you will be truly blessed.

            • 1914for100Alex

              Hi Cocheta. Did you get my email the other day?

            • Cocheta

              yes, Alex & I just replied in my scrawly handwriting

            • ok if thats what you want to believe then tell me whan was the disgusting thing put in place?

            • black curtain

              Question, could you pick who was anointed at Pentecost? It is almost a where’s Wally question, but, the answer is yes they all had visble tongues of fire that identified them.

              So what is the difference today? No tongues of fire for starters, so can they be verified as the 1st century ones were? No. Why? Well things change and so do circumstances, so Jesus said:
              (Matthew 24:45) 45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

              Note, that is a question. It is not identification. Why not just say I will identify them for all to see? Because in some respects people BY THEIR actions choose themselves for selection. However overtime they may not hold the same views as they once did. But onlookers cannot tell who will be chosen and care should be taken, see below.

              So someone who claims to be anointed cannot prove that, and neither can they claim to have been accepted… yet. But, Jesus may assign them things to do, to see what they do with the task, which helps to determine their suitability for the position of King/Priest, but we will never know that the task had been given until at least sometime in the future.

              So Jesus, made the point: (Matthew 22:14) 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.” (see below for context of this remark by Christ re the wedding feast)

              Note the point- invited. Not chosen, invited. That invitation can be withdrawn at any time based on what they do and what their heart motivation is. Some may well change their mind about accepting such an invitation. Nobody is forced to go. Jesus has no need of an unwilling team member. So in number terms more are chosen than are needed but the unsuitable are gradually weeded out. But some want to go but prove they should not be there, as you can see below.

              (Matthew 22:11-13) 11 “When the king came in to inspect the guests he caught sight there of a man not clothed with a marriage garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here not having on a marriage garment?’ He was rendered speechless. 13 Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.’

              So having said the question, Who are you following at present? let’s ask the question whom should you not be following?

              (Psalm 146:3-5) 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. 5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,

              Therefore if you claim to be christian the answer is you follow Christ according to your conscience. A wide ranging discussion with others including Rob King on this site and elsewhere will help you test your own beliefs in the crucible of public opinion. I am sure you already know that.

              The other question you ask; nobody at this time can make claim to being one of the 144,000,
              That is not quite correct. But everything is in the wording as a every good lawyer knows. People, however know what they feel inside, and we cannot disprove their claim one way or the other. Some suffer from premature exclamation when what they really mean is that they have been given the invitation. Where that is so, stand back and see what they do with it.

            • Victor Field

              Hello Black Curtain.
              You make valid points and i will start in answer from the scriptures you quote here in
              (Matthew 22:11-13) 11 “When the king came in to inspect the guests he caught sight there of a man not clothed with a marriage garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here not having on a marriage garment?’ He was rendered speechless. 13 Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.’

              John 10 gives answer to what you have raised
              1“ Ver​y ​truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.

              Christ is the only way(Holy Spirit), but some claiming to be anointed have bypassed Christ, only to be left behind,,When does this happen?
              Christ leads his Sheep to safety and they hear his voice during the GTribulation.
              The first to hear his voice, are listening when he forewarns them during the Tribulation time, they take note of the 1st sighting of the “Disgusting Thing”. and are sealed prior to the GTribulation

              Then during the GTribulation/Trial,others start to hear their masters voice also, and are freed from spiritual bonds,.

              A Great crowd at that time have been rescued,,

              So going back to the self anointed ones, who got in by some other means, these ones are left behind, do you see?

              The ones who weren’t rescued were left behind during this time, and the Master returns at a time they were not ready or prepared.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a jolly good explanation black curtain. I can’t resist the pun, but you seem to have ‘drawn’ a line under it. ‘Pull yourself together’ you seem to say.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Pull yourself together, drawn a line…crying laughing Burt! You have cheered me up with those two one liners…even though Cocheta is okay was feeling sad thinking of her. I too, liked being a sheep but now I’m one of many (Great Crowd) and in the tent of God! Well that’s how I see myself so now we have to get ourselves there. Like Arvid said, our minds are there already, so now we have to get our bodies there!

          • Cocheta

            slight point & ever so pedantic really, Brother Rajan, Jesus is not to rule forever, but for the thousand yrs after the New System arrives & I quote from the Insight Books vol2 p 170 & 1 Co 15:21-28;
            ‘The apostle Paul also describes the rule of Christ during his presence.
            After Christ resurrects his followers from death, he proceeds to bring
            “to nothing all government and all authority and power” (logically
            referring to all government, authority, and power in opposition to God’s
            sovereign will). Then, at the end of his Millennial Reign, he “hands
            over the kingdom to his God and Father,” subjecting himself to the “One
            who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to
            everyone.”

            Also, although I have the greatest respect for Brother Robert, I think it is premature for us to contemplate that Brother Robert (or anyone else for that matter) will necessarily be a recognised watchman, at this point in time none of the chosen ones are actually anointed/sealed. I only point that out to avoid ‘lurkers’ here believing that Bro Robert has formed some kind of cult following here & not to cheapen your reply. With regards Brother Rajan.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes you are right on that Rajan. Though Robert I think feels of the annointed, and I for one am happy to accept his feelings, it’s not up to me to comment on it. I’m happy, very happy for those that have this hope and feel it so. I accepted the same of those in the congregation, though I have to say, I never met one with credentials…I.e., teaching, living the truth, (secretly) charitable, taking a (noticeable) lead, urgent ministry, humility, a consuming lifestyle in the promulgation of the word, deep insight, knowledge of the bible and of commitment for what ultimately is of no return. I see no sign of cult, of lies, of misleading….all of which sounds like adulation perhaps, as per your comment, but no. Not from me anyway. What I do feel though is that at some point, one has to place faith, and for me it is that which I see here, hear, and reflect on from the bible what is true, from the bible. When I was in the watchtower, I was only ever confused because nothing matched. But here I have learnt the difference between following and being informed and living it for myself in understanding and thus making myself a follower of Christ in my own standing….such as that may be. It is because I am made free of ALL men in this site, that allows me to drink life’s waters freely here. No one owns the water in a well, but someone digs it. We draw it up for ourselves.

          • Burt Reynolds

            ‘Band of brothers’ surely!

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Ultimately what you said is true concerning Jesus being the first born new creation but nonetheless he still has 144,000 brothers that are included in the new creation.

          Romans 8:
          19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the first fruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons,

          Read more >The Revealing of the Sons of God.
          https://e-watchman.com/revealing-sons-god/

          Search results for: New creation
          https://e-watchman.com/?s=New+creation

          • Burt Reynolds

            Kevin do you know the reason why men and women were chosen to reign with Christ, rather than angels who showed themselves to be faithful? The watchtower used to say it was ‘simply’ because of the ransom and proving faithful, but that never seemed to me to be the intention at the beginning if Adam had not sinned.

            • Cocheta

              Satan contends that none of humankind will remain faithful even unto death if they are made to suffer enough. He has put Jehovah ‘on the spot’ as well as putting mankind on the spot, also to test if Jehovah will keep His word & not put a hedge around those being tormented

              It is in fact a Holy Gift from Jehovah to Jesus, Jehovah says effectively ‘ these people have suffered for you & stood by you despite everything. They have proved that they persevere & they answered satan in my legal case’

              That could only happen with humans surely & not angels who are far more perfect than mankind & have been witnesses of the legal trial between Jehovah & satan

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Ask yourself this question “who would be better able to judge mankind? the perfect angels who have no experience with what it’s like to suffer as an imperfect human or the 144,000 who lived here on earth and underwent many sufferings in there imperfect state.
              In other words how could perfect angels be empathetic when judging mankind when they themselves never lived as a human being.

              Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? 1Corinthians 6:2-A.
              I think Robert wrote an article on the subject and as soon as I find it I will send it to you because there’s a lot more on the subject than what I said.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Kevin.

    • Bklyn Kevin

      In regards to your thought when you said “Who are we being guided by at the moment?.

      My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me John10:27.
      I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.
      However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. John16: 12-13.
      But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Matthew 6:33 New International Version (NIV)

      And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:32.

      However until then “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment.
      The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
      On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
      Matthew 22:37-40.

      • Victor Field

        Who are the Sheep?

        • Anderiega

          Anybody following Christ (anointed or not)

          • Victor Field

            Hi, could you supply the scripture/s for those who are not anointed that it says are sheep, I am not familiar with them,,I am aware of the teaching as i used to tell others on Field Service this so called truth.

            • black curtain

              Is this what you are wanting?
              (John 10:11-16) 11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders
              his soul in behalf of the sheep. 12 The hired man, who is no shepherd
              and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming
              and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters
              them— 13 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep.
              14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me,
              15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my
              soul in behalf of the sheep. 16 “And I have other
              sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they
              will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. . .

            • Anderiega

              John 21:17, Luke 15:4

            • LW

              What did you think of the WT article for today?

            • Anderiega

              Lol. I highlighted everything I disagreed with…..There was a lot of yellow. But I’m so thankful that the topic of Babylonian captivity/release doesn’t confuse me (as much) anymore.

            • LW

              Aha. 😉

            • Victor Field

              Greetings,Anderiega,
              I apologise for not responding sooner

              To address Luke 15:4 first,,You have a hundred sheep these are people who profess to be sheep,,One gets lost as he leaves the flock,,
              You leave the 99 sheep all together, and you find the lost one,,Why?

              This person that went away”Repents” the single sheep
              He is the one and only true sheep,,and there is much rejoicing.

              The other 99 called themselves sheep but were not.
              They were Righteous already in their own eyes and saw no reason to repent. Jesus would come at a time they did not expect,Rev 3:3

              The single sheep is one of the chosen ones..as they are the sinners that Repent,,

        • Cocheta

          the answer to that cannot be given at the present time, Bro Victor, the time for separating has not yet arrived. The WTS thought they had but I think they were looking in the wrong field & then they saw that it was the wrong shepherd so they said it was to happen in the future some time 😉

          • Victor Field

            Yes the new light made things terribly complicated, sustaining 1914, with the overlapping generation, and then the separation could not have happened so on it goes.
            It has become so complicated,those listening just present the new format answers that are done in the Watchtower so they trust that all is well.
            All is well the FdSlave announce we have peace and security,We are in God’s favour,we are selected by him and you should follow us, in whatever we ask of you,,Compelled..

            • Cocheta

              “…they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”(2 Timothy 4: 3)
              But, as it tells us in Matt 24:15 therefore when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the Prophet, standing in a Holy Place (let the reader use discernment) +16 then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains”

              The FDS have certainly proved to be the disgusting thing standing in a Holy Place!

            • Jamie Mac

              HI, this is awfully confusing :). Unfortunately it seems not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet and I am finding this difference of opinion of who the sheep are a little unsettling.

              Also I thought the disgusting thing as spoken by Daniel is put in place during the time of the end. Am I wrong to assume that.

            • Cocheta

              sorry, Jamie, only just seen your comment. You need to understand when is the time of the end. As I said to SSS you are also welcome to message me on FB, the link is in my profile here. There are many things to learn.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Victor Field > Who are the Sheep?

          Revelation 7:
          9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
          10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

          13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?”

          14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

          John 10:11
          I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep.

          Also read>
          Search results for: Sheep’s and the goats
          https://e-watchman.com/?s=Sheep%27s+and+the+goats

          • Victor Field

            Kevin, hello Brother.
            Rev 7 We have to leave to one side for a moment,,Sheep are not mentioned,,It is a purely an interpretation that you follow in attachment to this scripture.
            John 10:11 Nothing to suggest who the sheep are,,I just took it as truth that it applied to both the chosen and others accompanying them,,.I believed it for years..I trusted those telling me.
            I would like to add to this discussion on the sheep,and the answer the scriptures give in relation to who they are and the evidence the bible gives on this subject.
            We all want truth.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              I see your points, however I will do some more research and look for a more specific answer.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              A more specific answer can be found in Revelation7:17 Just read the overall context of chapter seven. But you must use your powers of reasoning.

              17 “because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

              Now the lamb who is Jesus is said to be a shepherd so surely it stands to reason that the shepherd has sheep.

              So who else can the sheep be ? I mean surely it has to be the ones who come out of the great tribulations who had washed themselves in the blood of the lamb.

            • Victor Field

              Good morning,
              Yes they are sheep
              Rev 7 Tells us The remainder of the 144,000 are sealed prior to the GTribulation,,.
              Then after the GTrib vrs 9 More than a 144,000 are seen here, a number of people no man was able to number.
              vrs 14 shows them all wearing white robes, they heard Christ and were rescued.
              The GTrib/Trial is also known as the hour,,
              Mat 20 and the vineyard workers,,,12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

              The ones who saw the second sighting of the Disgusting thing receive the same wages of eternal life.

              Do you see the Disgusting thing now standing, you determined the Man of Lawlessness, or are you going to stay with the thought it is something Political?

            • sealed prior?

              Rev – “After* this I saw”
              Matt 24:29

              personally i concider the four horsemen to be tribulation of such magnitude denoting something considerably great

            • Victor Field

              Before the GTrib starts

            • i dont understand what you mean

            • Victor Field

              I Read,Sealed Prior,,? Thinking this was the full message,so gave answer to that.
              Rev 7 vrs 1-3 the sealing takes place.
              vrs 9 After these things,,After the GTribulation..

              The other topics you mention would consider discussion.

            • (i edit my messages so read them again 5min to a hour to see what ive finished typing or refreash the page.)

              what happens prior to their sealing?

              “But in those days, after* that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his choseny ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.”

            • Bklyn Kevin

              If you don’t mind me saying so I think you’re right on point.

              And also please take note that in Luke 12:42-45 after the great tribulation
              Jesus appoints / seals his faithful slave who just came through the great tribulations.

              And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all his belongings. Luke 12:42-44.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s nice and clear. Very helpful.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Okay now that we have the sheep matter concluded we can move on.

              Now concerning your thoughts on the disgusting and great tribulations I can see that you are confused.

              For instance you said you believe that the 144,000 anointed are sealed prior to the great tribulations also you suggested that the disgusting thing is something other than the political wild beast.

              So with that being said we now have a topic to discuss and I would greatly appreciate if you can verify what you’re saying with the scriptures and your power of reasoning based on the context of the bible however I will not discuss this topic here on this board because Robert has provided another forum for this very reason.
              So I’m going to go create a room in a little bit and call it (open discussion ) and when I have done that I will send you the link and we can continue from their.

            • Victor Field

              Hi Kevin, thank you for your invite

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Here is the link in order to continue our discussion. Please present your questions there and your thoughts and I will do Biblical research as to verify or nullify.

              https://e-watchman.com/topic/open-discussion-concerning-disgusting-thing-great-tribulationsanointed-sealed/

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Kevin, I can’t get into the forum as it keeps telling me my email is already being used on this site. I think for the number of times I get told that, I would have a different email for every site. I’ve told Robert. Let me know the outcome to your discussion. Thanks.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You already have an existing account and you don’t have to sign up again Just login like you always do and put your old password in . I hope that helps

            • Burt Reynolds

              I’ll try again. Thanks.m

            • Burt Reynolds

              Did that. Keeps telling me that my email address is already in use.

            • ewatchman

              Sorry Burt. Still got some bugs. I don’t know why it is so difficult to get a forum to function properly.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              OK Burt on the forum page there is a little blue box to the right and I clicked it and it opened up and all I did was to put my e-mail address in and the information box popped up and loged me in when I had clicked on it

            • Bklyn Kevin

              PS Burt here’s the link to the new forum just in case.https://e-watchman.com/forums/main-forum/

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes thanks. I can read it, but I can’t write on it as it won’t let me in the site.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Nope. It locked me out this time….

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Something apparently is wrong with the forum because it has locked me out too even though I feed it the correct information in regards to my password etc. Perhaps Robert needs to be informed.

            • Joe Dman

              I realize Victor has left. I was reading Rev7 and v17 states that “the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them….” So doesn’t a shepherd have sheep. So this is why it’s easy to think that the ones before the throne are sheep.
              I’m not trying to play I gotcha, just trying to make sense of it. If Victor can so quickly convince more than one of what he feels is truth, so much so that when he leaves, they leave, kind of makes you wonder. And I’m not saying he purposefully came to draw people away. He felt he had a message to give.
              Some of what he said would explain a lot, but some I have problems with.
              Some others and I have a little group where we dissect these things when they come up. We kind of keep each other grounded and hold one another back from taking false steps. Actually its more for me cause I’m probably more susceptible to taking false steps, but then again, I’m still here. And I’m glad to see most of Y’all are still here to.
              If anyone has any solid debunking material, please let me know, I’m at dmaninspection at gmail .

        • Cocheta

          the sheep are the chosen/anointed only (remember to whom the Gospels are written) First we must understand though that the original sheep were born into the Mosaic Law Covenant but later rejected Jehovah so of course Jehovah chose another people for His name, However we see at John 10:7-9 that Jesus our Saviour, is NOT the door to the (old) Law Covenant, so the sheep he leads out are to enter another sheepfold i.e. the Little Flock. Understanding that the Little Flock are Spiritual Israel is key to understanding who the sheep actually are.
          Let’s also look at Ez 37:21 for further clarification, “I will take the Israelites from among the nations +22 … they will no longer be 2 nations (i.e. fleshly & Spiritual Israel)…….. I will cleanse them & they will be my people. +24 they will all have one shepherd +26….. make a covenant of peace with them – to v28.
          Fast forwarding on to the Gospels times we look at John Ch 10. As an aside here plz look at v1 which tells us that “the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door, but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief & a plunderer (can you see that this is referring to the FDS/Org – this is why I can understand that the disgusting thing is now standing in a Holy Place, but this is the subject for another analysis)
          Okay, to resume + v3 …..he calls his own sheep by name & leads them out (the anointed)
          +v27 my sheep listen to my voice + v28 I will give them everlasting life, & the verse which pulls it altogether for a perfect understanding is
          +v 29 “what my Father has given me is something greater than all other things & no-one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father”
          Therefore, without a doubt ‘the sheep’ are the Little Flock’

          Brother Victor, I am aware that by your question you were getting the reader to think for themselves in order to recognize the sheep for themselves & not rely on teachings of others to do it for them. I hope that I have studied enough overnight to be able to answer to your satisfaction. The teacher will appear when the pupil is ready -I go back to my wax on/wax off practice, Mr Myagi & await your approval!

          • Beverly kenyon

            Boom!! Master class.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Oh! I always thought the sheep applied to all followers regardless of status. I enjoyed being a sheep. Now I’m stuck in a great crowd. Reminds me of being in London Underground. Still. I had better get on the train. Thanks for the info. I shall stand in the corner for getting it wrong. I rely on the teachings of others…..Christ, the apostles, Jehovah, the lilies of the field, the rocks and stones that cry out, and people who live under volcanos, blokes in Brooklyn, girls in Manchester, guys in Michigan, …even the outback in Ozzy, and all sorts of places around the watchman site. I think we all makes mistakes within the greater picture, but these points are seldom the composite of the message, which is always clear here. Jehovah, the ransome, faith, love.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Instead of the Underground, you’ll be under the Tent of God Burt! How exciting that will be! Burt, you’re so funny and smart in the things you say and your observations and can I just say I’ve learned quite a few things from you too!

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Well Burt you’re absolutely right when you said
              “I always thought the sheep applied to all followers regardless of status.

              Look the bottom line is – if your meek that means you’re teachable and if you’re teachable then you’re a sheep.
              Like I said before “You’re either a sheep or a goat. I mean Judas Iscariot was anointed and yet he turned out to be a goat at the end.

              So although he had a high status as it were he still was a goat and not a sheep.
              New International Version
              Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

            • Cocheta

              with the greatest of respect, Kevin, as I said to Burt, perhaps if you study the Scriptures you will see the truth of the matter

            • Bklyn Kevin

              I’m just giving my opinion based on the scriptures that I understand. And I never said you were right or wrong in fact I didn’t say anything to you. However why don’t you just put the question to Robert King and see what he has to say.

            • Cocheta

              I admire Robert very much, however, I prefer to get my answers from Jehovah via Holy Spirit, Kevin. Jehovah has spoken very clearly to all who will listen to His word the Holy Bible, however, as we are aware, it all depends on the person reading if they fully understand. We need to listen with our heart, not our head.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Cocheta, I can deduce you are very sure of what you are saying and I admire your courage in speaking up. However, what you just said is implying that Robert is not guided by the holy spirit. Please don’t take offence, but that is how it reads.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Please don’t forget GOD gave you the power to reason based on your bible trained logic because in all of Jehovah’s wisdom he understood that the heart could become treacherous and who could know it and get the mastery of it.

              And Satan the devil along with eve as well as Cain provide us with a good example of what happens when we independently think for ourselves and stray away from the wisdom that is taught in the bible by Jehovah. With that being said I was glad to hear you will continue to pray to Jehovah for guidance as well as search the scriptures for the very answers you seek.

              The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.Who can know it?Jeremiah17:9.

              Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.

              Genesis 3: The Origin of man’s sin (1-13) Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/genesis/3/

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Food for thought.

              Will Christianity Survive the End of the World?
              Excerpt:
              According to Jesus, God’s chosen ones will eventually shine as brilliantly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father—reflecting divine light to all those who will be privileged to see their countenance. No doubt, the revealing of the sons of God in connection with the revelation of Christ’s glory will be a dramatic display of Jehovah’s chosen ones preliminary to their departure. However, when God’s chosen ones are no longer on earth, how will those left behind fare who are dependent upon the “faithful slave” for their spiritual feeding?

              Isaiah answers in symbolic terms denoting that the other sheep (in this prophecy symbolized by the cattle) will graze upon the “boughs” left behind by Jacob, and that “women” will break off the branches to light fires in the aftermath. They being “women” would seem to symbolize that they are the other sheep who were in wifely subjection to Jacob before his departure. Because the departed slave had not prepared the other sheep for his violent departure, Jehovah goes on to note that those left behind are not “a people of keen understanding. ”Jehovah shows them no favor because he takes their spiritual guide from them—momentarily leaving them to fend for themselves in Jacob’s sudden absence.

              Far from the Bible not having anything to say about the matter, the 27th chapter of Isaiah, as well as other portions of prophecy, have much to say on the topic of whether the anointed will survive the war of Armageddon. The deep things of God’s prophetic Word reveal that the deaths of all the living holy ones during the actual parousia is central to God’s purpose to bring the Devil and his world into judgment.

              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/will-ch

            • Bklyn Kevin

              OK I took your advice and for the last couple of days I studied the scriptures so I can get a better understanding and I still have the same conclusion.
              Listen to Episode #72 for more information concerning the
              (other sheep, which are not of this fold) at John10:16.

              Starting time at 18:30 https://e-watchman.com/episode-72/Are

              (Are not the “other sheep” Gentile believers, or is there a dual meaning?)

              If Jesus is not my mediator, how are my sins forgiven? –

              Why is Watchtower toning down Numbers 31:18? Or is their version the only one that is correct?

              Is it possible that man could someday day manipulate human DNA in such a way as to achieve everlasting life?

              Are not the “other sheep” Gentile believers, or is there a dual meaning?

              Call-in questions on subjects ranging from the two witnesses and the 7,000 who are killed, to how to go about preaching given the error inherent in the WT’s message. And more!

            • Cocheta

              perhaps if you study the Scriptures I quoted, Burt, you will see that I am not wrong.

          • 1914for100Alex

            If the sheep can only refer to the anointed, how are we to interpret Matthew 25?

            31 “When the Son of man+ comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,+ then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep+ on his right hand, but the goats on his left.+
            34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;+ 36

            And then in verse 40…

            In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me’.

            In this illustration, we see the sheep taking care of others. Christ’s brothers, to be exact. Without a doubt, Christ’s “brothers” must be a reference to the anointed. But the way these people are talked about (“sheep”, “brothers”) tells me that they are at this point two different groups. That’s not to say the sheep weren’t made up of the “brothers” also, but at this point in time there is a clear distinction between the two. The “brothers” will have gone beyond being just “sheep”, and the rest of Christ’s followers that stay faithful will remain sheep themselves, as opposed to ending up on the left hand side as goats. That’s how I’m reading it at least. If I’m off, someone correct me please 🙂

            • Cocheta

              elementary, my dear Watson. The Sheep are the Chosen Ones, Sons of the Kingdom sown by Jehovah & the goats are the sons of the wicked one, i.e. satan. Matt 13:13-43
              I do need to expand on that though, Alex, but I have a falling asleep into her dinner baby next to me so I have to go just now, I’ll be back 🙂

            • Bklyn Kevin

              More food for thought.
              Woe to the Shepherds Who Have Become Feeders of Themselves.https://e-watchman.com/woe-to-the-shepherds/

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You’re either a sheep or a goat. I mean Judas Iscariot was anointed and yet he turned out to be a goat at the end.

            • Victor Field

              Yes Judas was anointed with Spirit,,But when did they all get there approval of White Robes from Jehovah? Rev 6:9-11 gives answer

            • Bklyn Kevin

              you’re talking about two separate events, one event was in the past with the original disciples and now you’re quoting Revelations which is in the very near future.

              Here is the first event however I can’t not tell you much about the second event because it has not happened just yet.
              Link to first event in the bible.
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/acts/2/#v44002042-v44002047

            • Victor Field

              The first Century disciples don’t get their robes until the last days,just before the GTribulation,,if you read on in that chapter of Rev,the selected chosen of today are sealed, the little flock are told they have to wait until the remainding one,their brothers are killed,,.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              With all due respect you keep changing subject after subject , you don’t seem to stay on the same topic I mean you’re all over the place, Please one subject at a time.
              So before we go any further you should go back to the forum where i had set up a room and stick to the previous topic and answer the questions that I ask of you.
              I mean it makes no sense to open up a discussion and then change the subject unless of course you are trying to evade my questions.
              That kind of studding if you wanna call it that creates a world of confusion.
              And again with all due respect I refuse to study multiple topics at the same time and if you wish to continue our discussion please answer the questions that I had posed to you in the original topic or else we have nothing else to say to each other.

            • Victor Field

              I will let you cool down,,I have tried to be reasonable,,
              Peace be with you Kevin

            • Victor Field

              I can see why you have talked/treated me the way you have,,You read my answer to you on the forum,2hrs before you replied to me on here,,
              where i asked if we could take topics one at a time, you were upset at what i said,,Then you put me in my place saying i am all over the place,,I suggested we answer one question at a time, you never replied and you are very prompt in answering,

            • 1914for100Alex

              That’s how I see it. Sure, there’s the little flock and other sheep, meaning there’s different groups of sheep, but at the end of the day good = sheep, and bad = goat. Thanks Kevin.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Far as I’m can see I think you’re right on point.
              Robert had written an article some were concerning the other Sheep, he had mentioned the other sheep was the great crowd in the future. I will find the article and share with you.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Will Christianity Survive the End of the World?

              Excerpt:
              According to Jesus, God’s chosen ones will eventually shine as brilliantly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father—reflecting divine light to all those who will be privileged to see their countenance. No doubt, the revealing of the sons of God in connection with the revelation of Christ’s glory will be a dramatic display of Jehovah’s chosen ones preliminary to their departure. However, when God’s chosen ones are no longer on earth, how will those left behind fare who are dependent upon the “faithful slave” for their spiritual feeding?

              Isaiah answers in symbolic terms denoting that the other sheep (in this prophecy symbolized by the cattle) will graze upon the “boughs” left behind by Jacob, and that “women” will break off the branches to light fires in the aftermath. They being “women” would seem to symbolize that they are the other sheep who were in wifely subjection to Jacob before his departure. Because the departed slave had not prepared the other sheep for his violent departure, Jehovah goes on to note that those left behind are not “a people of keen understanding.”Jehovah shows them no favor because he takes their spiritual guide from them—momentarily leaving them to fend for themselves in Jacob’s sudden absence.

              Far from the Bible not having anything to say about the matter, the 27th chapter of Isaiah, as well as other portions of prophecy, have much to say on the topic of whether the anointed will survive the war of Armageddon. The deep things of God’s prophetic Word reveal that the deaths of all the living holy ones during the actual parousia is central to God’s purpose to bring the Devil and his world into judgment.

              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/will-christianity-survive-the-end-of-the-world/

            • 1914for100Alex

              Thanks Kevin. I will give it a read.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              This is the information I told you I would find.

              Listen to Episode #72 for more information concerning the
              (other sheep, which are not of this fold) at John10:16.

              Starting time at 18:30
              https://e-watchman.com/episode-72/Are
              (Are not the “other sheep” Gentile believers, or is there a dual meaning?)
              If Jesus is not my mediator, how are my sins forgiven? –

              Why is Watchtower toning down Numbers 31:18? Or is their version the only one that is correct?

              Is it possible that man could someday day manipulate human DNA in such a way as to achieve everlasting life?

              Are not the “other sheep” Gentile believers, or is there a dual meaning?

              Call-in questions on subjects ranging from the two witnesses and the 7,000 who are killed, to how to go about preaching given the error inherent in the WT’s message. And more!

          • Victor Field

            Thank you Cocheta, for being so thorough in your research and making this reply,.You have understanding and are blessed, by Jehovah.
            For those that are recognising the hour, it is an exciting time, that is before us.
            Yes as the scriptures, point out,The Sheep are the 144,000/Chosen ones.They are given to Jesus by Jehovah, they are known as the Little Flock and the other sheep, that become one Flock.
            Ezekiel 34:12 those who do not take the mark..
            As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness​.

            They are blessed by Jehovah by being resurrected to human perfection.Rev 20:5-6 Again another topic of discussion.
            They stand side by side with others,(those who see the Disgusting thing,standing in a Holy place,and get the understanding of this) all wearing white robes at the end of the GTrib/Trial period Rev 7:9
            Please note, seeing the Dis/Thing clearly states the urgency.

    • Burt Reynolds

      My opinion is reflected more than adequately in the scriptures quoted by Kevin. Yet I have to say, the question as to who the sheep are and if they could be anything other than what is suggested, never crossed my mind because it is so clear who they are. Jesus refers to himself as the shepherd so he would hardly be gathering wolves or rabbits, or for that matter, goats. This issue is not who the sheep are at all, the truth is in the analogy. None of us are sheep, we are either man or woman, annointed or not annointed, good or evil. Would we question who the wolves are, the roaring lion? Then why argue the sheep for the sake of argument and in the light of the scripture shown? A more correct answer to your question may be, ‘he who has eyes, let him see. He who has ears, let him hear.’..but I do not wish to be pointed. I found Roberts article most enlightening. Like most of what Robert discusses on the word of Jehovah, it is new to me or should I say the content in it, that is made manifest to me is new. I never looked upon Saul as a ‘type’ of evil slave or how that ‘type’ may be reflected in the watchtower, and to my mind at least, this is the very necessity of the word that is important to us at this time. Surely if we try to emulate the spirit directed to us in the correct manner, then who the sheep are, will sort itself out in the near future for one singular reason. If we are sheep, we will be there in the future. If we are not sheep, we won’t be. Critically, it is us, the individual, who makes himself a sheep and thus the sheep therefore are those that emulate the word of Jehovah as best they can, in faith, through the ransom of Jesus. We cannot make sheep. Sheep make themselves. And who those are, is not actually up to us, is it? The scriptures indicate a like mind to the truth and that is the analogy of sheep just as Anderiega says below.

      • what about turttles an penguins? ??can they emulate the word too?

        • Burt Reynolds

          Actually yes DA. I think it is written in the scripture that animals bring praise to Jehovah, because they are not subject to the issues that we are. I.e., they remain innocent, unaffected, pure, fulfilling the purpose to which they were intended, aware of their creator. In other words, further up the chain than we are in many ways! I’m not sure on this, so don’t take it for granted. Someone will know. Kevin probably…if it’s there. I heard it at a meeting once.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Well said Burt thank you…..

  • Andres Felipe

    Sabía que ibas hablar de este tema. Es que la watchtower es muy conveniente para aplicar las historias . Yo me pregunto si Jonathan hubiera sido amigo de David si hubiera estado en estos días. Lo dudo . Y la watchtower curiosamente sin darse cuenta se muestra como infiel a jehova como lo fue saul al momento de perseguir a David. Ahora , david no estaba de acuerdo con saul y no por eso jehova lo considero un apóstata

    • Cocheta

      Translation;

      I knew you were going to talk about this. It is that the watchtower is very convenient to apply the stories.
      I wonder if Jonathan would have been David’s friend if he had been living in these days. I doubt it .
      And the watchtower curiously inadvertently shows itself as unfaithful to Jehovah as Saul was at the time of chasing after David.
      Now, David did not agree with Saul and not for this Jehovah considered him an apostate

      • Andres Felipe

        Gracias mi hermana

  • noname

    Nailed it! –)

  • ewatchman

    RE-POST – After a couple of failed ventures, a new forum is now available. (I hope) I think the glitches have been fixed. (I hope) This new forum allows you to sign in using your Disqus account that you use to leave comments. Let me know if you have problems logging in. I wish to use the forum for answering questions and more in depth discussions, rather than the comments section. It will be more permanent and the topics will not scroll away so quickly as do the comments. https://e-watchman.com/forums/

  • related article – https://e-watchman.com/nabal-antitype-antichrist/

    “What makes Abigail’s life-saving act of discretion so extraordinary is that she acted against her head —Nabal.” “…Jonathan refused to obey his father’s [Saul] command to cut off his friendship with his family member.”

  • Beverly kenyon

    The parallels to the modern day evil slave in this article is too obvious to ignore, just like King Saul’s nakedness their bad practices and bad heart condition is fully exposed for all who want to see it! Saul turning on family members reminds me of when a person is coming into the ‘truth.’ The person is love bombed/loved up, then takes the relationship to the next level of commitment, the ring goes on the finger/baptism, then Psycho Sally comes out…you’re trapped! Try to ‘divorce’ and you become ‘dead’ to them, they will spiritually ‘kill’ you with their deadly shunning practices…truly evil!

    • Cocheta

      erm, at this point it must be made perfectly clear that Psycho Sally is not our beloved Sister Sally 😉

      • Beverly kenyon

        Laughing so much at that Cocheta…hilarious! Funny you said that as I was going to clarify in that post that Psycho Sally wasn’t our Sally. Lol. Wow, Cocheta, you don’t mess about. Boom! Done! I’m amazed you lasted as long as you did considering the harassment and cold treatment you and your girls were getting at those meetings…but don’t know why I feel a little sad about you having to ‘divorce.’ I hope you’re alright Cocheta. You know there’s ones here on EWatchman that will look out for you and support you emotionally. You’re a very valued sister to us and especially me. I know for a fact you will up your internet witnessing now without fear of repercussions and you now can freely worship in truth, real truth, instead of sitting through those meetings squirming, listening to things that are not right and true. Some can handle it but some in all good conscience just can’t do it…it makes a person feel like they’re having some sort of cheating illicit relationship on the side…I don’t like that feeling. Whatever your decision Cocheta, I still love you to bits, you’re a beautiful soul who love truth according to the Word of our Heavenly Father…you’re just not hanging around for when it all hits the Proverbial Fan!! Lots of Love to you and your girls. Xx

        • Cocheta

          Beverly, it’s the most liberating feeling in the world, I serve, follow & listen only to Jehovah now & He has taught me many things since leaving the WTS.

          Don’t be sad, Jehovah makes certain we are okay & on the right path, it may not necessarily be this particular path on this site, but He leads us without a doubt.
          I live you to bits my darling girl xxxxxx

          • Beverly kenyon

            Yes, Jehovah does make sure we’re okay and on the right track if we lean on him. That’s good to hear you have that exhilarating feeling of liberation…the weight is off, not being dragged down….so freeing! Just hope you don’t disappear off this site Cocheta, I hope you still contribute with your comments…some of them being beyond funny! Lol. One of your recent comments had me and my friend in stitches…the one where you called Arvid a flirt..I’m laughing now at that…so funny..would really miss your sharp witty, British sense of humour! For me personally, I’m going to be like that sister Ryhnda ( I think that’s how her name is spelt) and Song of Hannah and there’s another witness on this site, who just make fly by visits to KH and if I’m asked, I’m keeping it to I’m just an interested person. Just happy to hear Cocheta that you’re alright. Would not like it if you were in bits. Thinking of you. Xx

            • sally

              Lol I have been called a few things in my time but never “Psycho Sally” I have managed to keep that part of me underwraps! (joke!) Seriously though I fully understand your decision Cocheta to walk away. It must in a way, be very freeing. I stopped my study at the start of December, since then I have had very unfriendly looks from several of the elders and no one really talks to me. I had queues lining up to speak to me before, it was actually exhausting funny how things change just because I wanted to slow it up a little. There are some really good people there that I got to know that I took to, they were genuinely really warm, I have noted that I have not seen them for weeks I am not sure why. However yesterday I attended the meeting, there is a family of 3 sisters who have been JW’s since forever and parents who are deceased were as well. They are 3 really lovely sisters and very close to each other, all single for various reasons and hang out together. Anyway, One of them, has a slight learning difficulty and is looked after by the other two, she got sick with cancer last year and has been fighting the fight. It looked like she was winning, she was at the meeting a week ago. I noted yesterday none of them were there, than at the end of the WT study, the elder announced that she had died the night before. It was a shock, I am still in shock actually. The announcement was made, no one reacted, then they got on with the closing prayer, in which there was no mention made to Jehovah of this poor sister and her two remaining and no doubt devastated surviving sisters. Prayer ended and that was the end of that. I spoke to a sister in front of me, expressing shock and upset, she said “yeah its sad isn’t it” and then asked how I was and well done for coming?!! I left pretty quickly and said my own prayer in behalf of that family to Jehovah as i sat in the carpark. On top of this I was physically very cold. Everyone sat with coats and scarves on, they never put on the heating, so it is cold in the physical sense and cold emotionally.

            • Beverly kenyon

              What a contrast to when Lazarus died and Jesus wept so much, he was heartbroken! That cold attitude in KH’s will never thaw while it’s being taught right from the top Sally. It’s learned behaviour and not unique to your KH. My friend who is in the same position as you, is now experiencing that cold attitude and I know he’s in shock as he phoned me late last night and the first thing he said was how rude some of the witnesses are and he normally doesn’t speak like that. I think for the two of you the love bombing/honeymoon period is over! And all because you both haven’t been baptised according to their timeline and ‘standards.’ I’ve been telling my friend for two years now about the things I’ve learned on EWatchman coupled with printout of articles ( he doesn’t have a device ) and I always sensed he didn’t approve but now he’s been treated like a lesser person he listened genuinely to what I had to say again and has said, there’s absolutely no way he will be pledging allegiance to the GB when it comes to being baptised so it looks like that’s not going to happen for him as he now believes about the Man of Lawlessness sitting in the heart of the Temple, as he put it, our faith has been hijacked by Satan. I did tell him though, that it’s best he stays within God’s household but he now knows why nearly everyone is cold. Also told him about the wheat and the weeds growing together until the harvest. That cold unloving attitude displayed in KH’s is what has filtered down to the R&F witnesses from the top and from what I’ve seen most of them are more than willing to be like that just like the scripture says. Jeremiah 5:31

            • Cocheta

              funnily enough I don’t think we have heard from Arvid since I called him a flirt! Whoops!

              I just got so tired of wiping the dirty boot marks off my white frock after the KH meetings

              It was my favourite German that I wrote to *evil grin*

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yeah, Cocheta, I noticed Arvid has been quiet but I don’t think that’s why…he’s much too lovely and humble to take offence at a bit of a joke even though it was funny. I think he likes having laugh too. Hope he’s alright…you never know what’s happening in people’s lives. Also missing is Observing Quietly…I think a lot of that lady. A lot of us on this site really think a lot of Observing Quietly…the name sums up what a lovely sister she is. What was happening to you and your girls Cocheta at the meetings was demoralising so I’m happy and respect you making your decision and I know for a fact it wasn’t taken lightly…it is after all your life! Wonder, after reading your letter of disassociation he’ll be breaking your door down to offer you support coupled with a loving shepherding ‘overlapping’ visit. Did you put a kiss at the end of the letter? Lol. More like a Glasgow kiss!! Once again Cocheta, I hope you’re still active here on EWatchman. I’d be gutted if you went MIA. Xx

            • Cocheta

              never even got a confirmation that he received it Bev! That’s how much they really do care. I have the absolute truth now & I don’t care what they do anymore at the KH. Glasgow kiss would have been wonderful for sure LOL.
              Observing Quietly has the right idea.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Awww, Cocheta, don’t let any of them bother you. We know you and Jehovah loves you as he directed you here and found the real truth which has galvanised you into looking deeply and sincerely into God’s word the Bible. The love of the greater number is truly cooling off where something as important as a witness disassociating from God’s house is just ignored and not one elder bothering to knock on your door to find out why such a decision and offer some comforting words without judgement, surely the German must know you must be feeling emotional despite your letter…that’s low. Anyway, you don’t need any of their approval, let them think what they like. The blind leading the blind and they both fall in the pit…tragic! You stay with us Cocheta and keep your chin up and keep doing what you’re doing…you have a sincere heart and I know that’s true as anyone can tell from the things you write..the words come straight from your head and heart. Keep being yourself…you’re unique…there’s only the one of you. Just a thought and don’t laugh but maybe the German might be a little scared of the English Sister and might be terrified of a face to face with you because the gloves are off now…just keep thinking of how they bombed our chippies. Lol. At least you have the backbone of your convictions just like Observing Quietly. Thinking of you. Xx

          • Anderiega

            I’ll meet you in Pela… Hopefully ?

      • Southern ShaSha

        Hello Cocheta! So sad the state of affairs going on. But you must realize just how many have done the opposite regarding decisions to leave an organization that has crippled and destroyed so many. How many by the LIES and DECEIT have left not only this mess that is going on within the walls of the Kingdom Hall but felt they have been betrayed by not men but JEHOVAH Himself. I, in my heart truly believe those who leave because of conscience are doing so for just the opposite reason, their sincere love for JEHOVAH. I take my hat off, as I’ve said b/4 to any who have the ability to remain in their efforts to help others to see the truth through the deceit. I have wondered what has happened to Observing Quietly, who tried explaining her reasoning as to why she and her husband could no longer bare up to the lies and constant misinterpretation of prophesy. I miss her very much, she brought a lot of insight in her own personal dealings with the organization. The Truth should be one of openly expressing, debating scripturally what the truth is. How does one share openly and honestly in the ministry, participate in the watchtower study, speak with the friends in the congregation
        Should ones be expected when confronted with teachings founded in lies to eat their tongues and go along or share the truths founded in the only authority, Jehovahs words expressed through scripture. Each of us have to make that decision privately, between the only One that makes a bit of difference in our eventuality according to his promises and His requirements, He is the only authority that counts for anything we do, or decide to do! Asking ourselves, in accordance with His will what road He desires and demands we must take. I hope so much Cocheta you remain visible to all of us, stay with this little congregation, you have so much knowledge to share, you have always been so up building, lots of love for others and most of all your expressions of love for JEHOVAH and JESUS. You are a valuable friend to all! Much love you you! Joyce

        • Cocheta

          thank you my dearest Sister, you are a joy to me also. I won’t be leaving here, unless I get kicked off by Bro Robert I’m tough, a few rotten eggs thrown at me won’t put me off,

          I too miss OS, she was a delight & made perfect sense. I wish I knew someone that was in contact with her, I would so love to chat with her again. (I hope she read my comment to Beverly with my e-mail address in it)
          Love you too xxxx

    • Joe Dman

      Near disaster here Beverly. I was about to take a drink of my coffee when I read about Psycho Sally. Had I put my cup to my lips a half second sooner I’d be cleaning coffee off my screen right now.

      • Beverly kenyon

        Can I just say, Joe, it’s not our Sally, but she did say she’s keeping her psycho under wraps! Lol. There’s no way I want to be responsible for you getting third degree burns Joe. Ha! Really good to see you posting on EWatchman. Have missed your down to earth, full of wisdom and common sense comments. And I’m still thinking of that light bulb that keeps flickering on and off every so often..that was a good thought.

  • Jamie Mac

    Unfortunately it seems not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet and I am finding this difference of opinion of who the sheep are a little unsettling. From my point of view, I am visiting Robert’s site to gain knowledge, which I have done in abundance and I am grateful to Jehovah for leading me here. However I am still a babe when it comes to a lot of scriptural matters.

    Perhaps I am reading to much into it but it is a little confusing for someone like me.

    • Southern ShaSha

      Jamie Mac, the conversation about “who are the sheep” was more than a little unsettling. I found much confusion in the conversation between Kevin and Victor Field. Cocheta, at least for me gave clarity to her argument regarding sheep, other sheep and the great crowd, defining each scripturally, making sense out of the debate. I’m so low on the learning curve of scriptural understanding, needing to pay very close attention to what for the moment I don’t understand or long held beliefs for lack of diligent searching.

      • Cocheta

        are you on FB, SSS?

        • Southern ShaSha

          Yes I am and yes I will! Thank you Cocheta.

  • Simpletruth

    Thank you for this enlightenment!! It’s amazing how easily the scriptures can be twisted to fit a certain ideal. What’s worse is that the unsuspecting witnesses do not question it or see the parallels. You are so right about the types and antitypes…..they have completely dumbed down the scriptures as it relates to the application of these passages in the bible. So sad!

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      You said the WTS have completely dumped down the scriptures as it relates to the application of these passages in the bible. So sad!

      Rather than saying like that It can be said like this:- The WTS have completely dumped down the scriptures as it relates to themselves. I have a doubt that some in the Bethel might have peeped Robert’s website and have indicated to GB as if it is their own understanding. Or It might have come to the GBs notice that some in the congregation begin to apply types and antitypes what was not taught in the WT. They would have even come to know that people became aware of this after seeing watchman’s site that may be the reason why the WTS have completely dumped down the scriptures.

      • Simpletruth

        I agree…they’ve done both. They do not apply the scriptures to themselves as it relates to God’s judgments. But in addition, they don’t focus as much on prophetic meanings of passages anymore. It’s as if they think the prophecies are too difficult for the friends to understand….

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    Watchtower had a humble beginning……………..It demands to be glorified as Jehovah’s untarnished and infallible mouthpiece. What brother Robert said is correct. But see one small correction to be made. The Watch Tower now teaches that the Governing body is neither inspired or Infallible as it can be found in the Watch Tower Study article Feb:2017 In the article Who Is Leading God’s People Today? under the sub heading
    WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?”
    Paragraph 12: It states: The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.

    • ewatchman

      I know the WT does not overtly claim to be inspired or infallible. It just pretends to be. And Jehovah’s Witnesses go along with that pretense.

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Yeah you are right but I just told you as reminder if by chance you have overlooked this magazine which I have mentioned. thanks a lot brother

    • Beverly kenyon

      Wow! What’s took them so long to admit that! Is it because their dirty little secrets are being revealed via people speaking out, taking them to court and the big one…the Internet! It’s all there to read! Reverse psychology…poor us, we can get it wrong, but we’ve owned up being neither inspired or infallible and witnesses will go along with their confession and say look how honest they are! Pfftt. Well if they’re trying to come across as honest own up to the 1914 Lie and all the rest and tell everyone where the ‘money is stashed’ stop fighting sex abuse victims in court and stop fleecing Jehovah’s people and stop seating yourselves (the seven men) in ‘Moses Seat’ a seat that rightly belongs to the Greater Moses and stop the cruel shunning. Breaking up families, and stop expelling Anointed Ones from God’s House. But that won’t be happening as Jehovah is allowing the Man of Lawlessness to run riot as a test of Jehovah’s Household so scripture can be fulfilled. Sorry Basavaraj, for my mini rant but apart from taking the complete mick I don’t know who they think they’re fooling with playing like they’re humble and honest! Ridiculous!

    • Arvid Fløysand

      And if you take a look at WT2013 july 15 page 8 paragraph 18….that paragraph contains gold..maybe som one can provide a link on this site to this paragraph?

      • Bklyn Kevin
        • Arvid Fløysand

          Thanks Kevin…you are a helpful and kind brother(hope i one day can grab your hand hard and say thank you for the good company on this very special journey )…hang in there brother and keep up with your good work 🙂

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          Thanks for that link

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Yeah I know thjat I have even saved a copy of that both in hard and soft form.

    • Beverly kenyon

      And because they ‘err’ that makes it alright!

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        I don’t mean that makes them alright. But I am bringing the point that this is their own admission and it makes us to speak with evidence to other witnesses that what they were teaching was false especially in connection to 1914. See we can tell in connection with
        1914 like this. Take for example. How JWS connect 1914? By referring to Daniel:
        4:10-17 and connecting with the Kingdom of Christ. Now you can ask to against whom this
        prophecy was uttered?

        Against the King of Babylon?

        Now you can ask, was the king of Babylon
        a Jewish King or a Pagan King?

        They will tell Pagan King

        You reason out like this: How can you connect the prophecy addressing to a pagan king to the Kingdom of Christ?

        Only those prophecies that are addressed to the Kingdom of David or Judah can be applicable to the Kingdom of Christ.

        Then Staunch JWs will tell you. Brother you cannot say like this brother because it is the work done by the faithful and discreet and slave class people of Jehovah’s witnesses for more than a century how can it be in error? That is the time you can quote Watch Tower Study article Feb: 2017. In the article Who Is Leading God’s People Today? Under the sub heading WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?” Page 25 Paragraph 12: It states: The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. So you have some grip to reason out or at least put a pause to the mouths of staunch JWs.

        You can reason out one more thing If WTS is applying the tree of Daniel: 4:10-17 to the kingdom of Christ? Then there is also a similar tree in Eze: 31:3, 5-7.

        The characteristics of the tree described in Eze: 31:3, 5-7 has the same characteristics
        as that of the tree in Daniel: 4:10-17

        You can reason out with the witnesses like this: If you can apply the tree of Daniel: 4:10-17 to the kingdom of Christ? So to which kingdom will you apply the tree of Eze: 31:3, 5-7?

        In this way you can lock them.

        Of course majority of them will follow WTS but not what you say though it makes real sense, because my own father-in-law who is also an elder and WT study conductor did not accept my reasoning out regarding this tree.

        They did not Dis-fellowship me because I am their own son-in-law.

        • Beverly kenyon

          Basavaraj, just finished going over your reply and I’ve looked up the scriptures you mentioned and I’ve got to say I absolutely love how you’ve presented the facts along with common sense reasoning…that’s one for my notebook btw. Many thanks for sharing your insight. When I read stuff like this that is so glaring true from the Bible I want to shout it out to someone…it bubbles up inside me! Unbelievable that your father-in-law, despite being very knowledgeable did not accept your sound reasoning..why are their minds closed off to truth and simple reasoning. Daniel 12:4 talks about the book being sealed up until the time of the end and true knowledge will be abundant then, so the book isn’t hermetically sealed still because aren’t ones like us here learning true knowledge…I’m probably wrong there with that thought…not sure. Basavaraj, I’m so happy you’re their son-in-law as it would be horrible if they disfellowshipped you for speaking Truth…you’re fortunate having loyal and loving in-laws.

          • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

            Yeah brother they will not and cannot dis-fellowship me because if they do so it is they who will get ashamed, because others will ask what type of Son-in-law you are having. You boasted about him so much how is this happened? In India many people who get dis- fellowshipped is on the grounds of SEX SCANDALS. If they dis-fellowship me they will think of that reason (sex scandal) only. See before I marrying their daughter a rich family JW came and asked their daughter for marriage. But my father-in-law rejected that alliance because that person was not having good reputation and was once dis- fellowshipped on the grounds of fornication. After that we went for alliance they accepted but what special is that this girl is really beautiful and many were waiting to take this girl without any expectation from girl’s side. I never thought they would accept me. When we went for alliance they really inquired a lot on our family and me and found we were JWs since 1967 and I am a born JW so they accepted our alliance as the feedback on me from my congregation was overwhelming than what they were expecting. So they accepted me. Now I have twin children all attend meetings. So if they dis-fellowship me all the people will ask my father-in-law what? Is your son-in-law is not satisfied the beauty of your daughter? What type of man is he? A man who commits adultery is generally called as dog in our place. So if they dis fellowship me people will not be knowing on what grounds they dis fellowshipped me they will only think of sex scandal. It will be shame for them only. But as of 2017 if they dis
            fellowship me nobody will believe because I have already taken a nick name as
            Basavana of 21st century from worldly people as am I am well known as Bible man and a teetotaler which in turn is also well known among Jehovah’s witnesses in our area. They will joke at me that I am Christian Basavanna, because many of Basavanna teachings reflects the teachings of Christ. If I go to field service people call me hey Basavanna (just google it and see). Because the real Basavanna was a 12th century Hindu philosopher, statesman, Kannada poet and a social reformer of North Karnataka who is now worshiper as god man of North Karnataka by Lingayat community. DON’T THINK I AM BOASTING OF MYSELF. YES IT IS CERTAIN! IT IS CERTAIN! THAT THE DAYS ARE COMING WHEN MY FAMILY MEMBERS NO MORE WILL BE LEADING THE CONGREGATION AS I AM MOVING FROM NORTH KARNATAKA TO COIMBATORE TAMIL NADU WHICH IS ALSO MY MOTHER’S NATIVE PLACE AS MY JOB IS GOING TO BE TRANSFERRED THEN I
            WILL BE DIS-FELLOWSHIPPED FOR SPEAKING UP THE TRUTH AND WILL BE PUT TO SHAME FOR THE THINGS WHICH I HAVEN’T DONE. I and my wife has been already warned by my in-laws not to speak up in Coimbatore congregation because it is a staunch Pharisees JW congregation.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Oh, my goodness Basavraj, it’s going a very testing time for you and your lovely family when you move to another area. I know you’re not boasting about yourself as you’re so searingly honest in all your posts..I always look forward to anything you have to say as you’re very knowledgeable and sincere. I hope you keep us posted on how you get on in your new congregation. It was wonderful reading about how you met your beautiful wife…and I know she’s beautiful as some of the most beautiful women in the world are from India…and your twins…you are truly blessed. It appears that sex scandals are rife in the congregations worldwide and yes, over here we also call people who put it about dogs as well as a few other names! Was your family one of the first witnesses in India like Arvid and his family were the first witnesses in Norway? I find that amazing and love reading about it…true pioneers, accepting the ‘truth’ and then searching for REAL truth when things weren’t right in God’s House. I will google Basavanna as I’m now curious as to who that is. I do hope everything turns out alright for you and your family when you move. Nothing is ever permanent in this system..no security…it’s ever changing!

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              To be truth we are not the first witnesses. JW was established in India in 1925. My family from 1967 before that we were Protestants before that we were Hindus Lingayats. I was born in 1976 so only I am a born JW in my family, so are my twin children but not my wife she was a Hindu Brahmin to Catholic from Catholic to JW.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow, Basavaraj, your family history is very interesting and they were progressive in their spirituality in listening and finding out about God’s purposes and you went a step further in your search for real truth, hence being here on EWatchman and not being afraid to speak out about it to your family. Kudos to you! Now you and your wife have to deal with your new ‘pharisee’ congregation. I do hope you settle in well. Considering India is such a diverse country full of many gods and Deities it’s fantastic you and your family became JWs.

        • Anderiega

          ?????

    • Andres Felipe

      Hermana , estas expresiones de la watchtower me hacen acordar las palabras del apóstol Pablo sobre una “humildad ficticia “(Colosenses 2:17,18) porque por un lado dicen humildemente que ellos se equivocan y por otro lado , debajo de la mesa , acusan de apostasía a todo aquel que no están de acuerdo con las enseñanzas que no son infalibles. Así que nuevamente, una cosa es la imagen que presenta al público y otra muy diferente la realidad

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Oh respected Andres Felipe I did not understand in which language you posted can you or anyone translate. Thanks for your reply

        • Joseph Stephan

          Translation (Spanish-English)

          Sister, these watchtower expressions remind me of the apostle Paul’s words of “fictional humility” (Colossians 2: 17,18) because on the one hand they humbly say that they are wrong and on the other hand, under the table, they accuse Of apostasy to all who do not agree with the teachings that are not infallible. So again, one thing is the image that presents the public and another very different reality

          • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

            Okay that’s fine I am not a Sister

            • Joseph Stephan

              I know that, maybe it’s your thumbnail photo?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. That picture is brilliant! Basavaraj called me a brother! Had me lol. Reminds me of that post by KB a while back about an old ridiculous teaching by the WT about waking up a different gender! That’s still my No.1 laugh out loud on this site! Classic!

            • Joseph Stephan

              Had me laughing when he addressed you as brother, I never met a dude named Beverly!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Dude looks like a lady! Absolutely love Basa.

            • lol

    • True Witness

      Hello brother Basavaraj. How are you? I also think that what is WT writes is only to say that they can make mistakes but when you try to point on this mistake you are considered an enemy. Look what they did to brother King and others. So many in our congregations prefer to keep silent about mistakes made by WT. I did say to my elders that I disagree with GB and they completely stoped to give me any talks. They keep me on record. So what they write and what they do is two different things. Think what they would do to Peter after he denied Jesus 3 times. He would be finished if he was in JW organization.

      Blessings to you my brother.

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Yes What you said is right I agree. I think so it will happened when I move to the new congregation because my job is being transferred to Coimbatore where the JWs in that place are Pharisees.

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Anyone of you can help me in solution to this problem? My question is that is there any provision for a person who gets dis-fellowshipped on false grounds can sue the society. If there is a provision what should I do? The country which I live is democratic and the constitution is almost same as US. So any input please help me. My aim is to teach them a lesson. I have thoroughly documented how 1914 is wrong. Both with the help of e-watchman, historical point of view and biblically. There is also a provision In our law that any magazine
        published by any one if it is lies an interested citizen can take action by suing them. I can drag them regarding the date of Jerusalem destruction what is found in the history and what is taught in the WTS. Or can I drag them regarding the issue of putting ban on higher education on witnesses? Can I drag them in Child abuse issue by showing the evidence of correspondence of letters between the GB and the congregation from 1980-2017? Please your inputs are much valuable. I should do something for these guys.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I can only advise re: English law re 1914. The fact of the matter is that you would be suing a doctrine, not a fact or principle in law, it being an article of faith, not fact. Also, it may be that due to the baptismal oath of aliegence to the watchtower would nullify any action because the person agreed to abide by the teachings of the watchtower, not the bible. If the whole world of religion cannot agree on doctrinal matters, and on the dates and mathematical processes, which are themselves a matter of faith, in determining the substance of 1914 and its meaning to the witnesses, then there is little hope that a solicitor will. Also you cannot use other wrongdoings such as child abuse, as fact to support a different matter such as 1914 as it is not related. Though a good solicitor could use it as character assassination but it would be objected to. Frankly, if you can get a court to hear it at all, you will be lucky, but you also need to bear in mind that solicitors get rich on cases like this (on all cases if the truth be known), because it can be strung out until all your finance is used. What I would recommend is that you take the bible teaching to heart….’vengeance is mine,’ says Jehovah, ‘I will repay.’ You may like to consider also, that such an injustice will be nothing compared with the injustice to come. Not only that, but in principle, disfellowshipping has no effect on ones standing before Jehovah. That depends on the heart condition of the person concerned and their course of action. You cannot hurry the demise of the watchtower, or seek restitution from an organisation that is ultimately so influenced by Satan in its dealings with the flock. What you do have and that is worth far more than the justice of this world, and is worth more than all the riches of the world, is the Truth. Not only is it free, but it is life giving. Give justice to your friend by giving them this truth, as it will put their minds at rest and restore hope where there was none. I suppose we shall all be indentified and exposed and disfellowshipped before the end comes, not to mention that the watchtower will ultimately be disfellowshipped from the righteous ones itself!

  • Kjetil Stokka

    the good and the evil slave is an illustration, not a prophecy. Jesus told this illustration to show his disciples that they had to stay awake.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body is built on a lie, a distortion of Jesus words, they have made a lie that they exercise power over other people.

    Matthew 24:5World English Bible (WEB)

    5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead many astray.

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