Are Jehovah’s Witnesses False Prophets?

//Are Jehovah’s Witnesses False Prophets?

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Saturday, July 15

Then there will be great tribulation.Matt. 24:21.

How will the great tribulation begin? The book of Revelation answers by describing the destruction of “Babylon the Great.” (Rev. 17:5-7) How appropriate that all false religion is likened to a prostitute! The clergy have prostituted themselves with the leaders of this wicked world. Instead of loyally supporting Jesus and his Kingdom, they have given their support to human rulers and have compromised godly principles just to gain political influence. They stand in stark contrast with the clean, virginlike anointed ones of God.  But who will destroy the harlotlike organization? Jehovah God will put “his thought” into the hearts of “the ten horns” of the “scarlet-colored wild beast.” These horns represent all the present political powers that give support to the United Nations, an organization pictured by the “scarlet-colored wild beast.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses and false prophecy is a very common Internet search term. There are quite a few websites with articles on the topic as well as YouTube videos. I am going to make my contribution with this article.

Numerous evangelical sites accuse Jehovah’s Witnesses of being false prophets based upon the considerable number of failed expectations associated with the original 1914 bust, 1925, 1975 and most recently, the embarrassing death of the generation that would not pass away.

Of course, those same evangelical sources may also claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not even Christians anyway because we don’t accept the trinity and all the other doctrinal nonsense that evangelicals espouse. So, those critics cannot possibly have any credibility from a scriptural standpoint —at least not with solidly-grounded Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The most obvious flaw in their reasoning is the fact that prophetic interpretations do not originate with Jehovah’s Witnesses. On the contrary, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses have exclusive rights to determine what is true. Jehovah’s Witnesses, be they lowly publishers, pioneers, elders, traveling overseers or Bethel workers, are required to unquestioningly accept what is published by the Watchtower. Certainly, no accepted interpretation of prophecy originates from anywhere but Bethel.

In their zeal to convince the unwary that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false, evangelicals cite the law at Deuteronomy 18:22, which made it an offense punishable by death to presumptuously speak an untruth in the name of Jehovah. The folly of their reasoning is that the mere appearance of false prophets in the midst of the Israelites did not disqualify the entire nation from being God’s people. Nor does it mean that Christians are not Christians because they are misled by false teachers. (Related Youtube video)

On the contrary, the apostle Peter prophesied that just as the Israelites were menaced by false prophets, so too, there will be false teachers among the anointed congregation of Christ, who will “greedily exploit you with counterfeit words.” (II Peter 2) Please note, Peter did not say that you might be targeted by false teachers or that the the misleaders would be on the outside. Jesus’ apostle said “there will also be false teachers among you.”

According to Peter’s inspired words such teachers would be in their midst up until the judgment of God overtakes them. That is what Peter meant when he said their judgment was not slumbering, that they bring speedy destruction upon themselves. So, here is the irony: If Jehovah’s Witnesses are the true faith then they must also have false teachers among them who exploit them. Is such the case? Absolutely!

Now, consider an extraordinary prophecy in the 13th chapter of Ezekiel. Jehovah commanded his watchman to say to the prophets: “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel, and say to those who fabricate their own prophecies, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Woe to the stupid prophets, who follow their own spirit, when they have seen nothing!’”

But does the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses even claim to be prophets? The answer is yes. They positively make that claim, at least in a roundabout way. The only qualifier is, they do not claim to be inspired prophets. What is the difference? The Governing Body do not claim to be inspired by holy spirit the same as the ancient Hebrew prophets and apostles in the first century.

However, the Governing Body do claim to preside over God’s “spirit-directed organization.” And since all of Jehovah’s Witnesses are required to acknowledge they are guided by the spirit-directed organization and the GB take to themselves sole authority to interpret prophecy as they see fit, it is naturally assumed that the would-be interpreters of prophecy are similarly guided by the spirit. So, being uninspired is merely a technicality.

In order to bestow the prophet’s mantle upon themselves the Watchtower has fabricated a thing called the “prophet class.”

For example, the very prophet who spoke against the stupid prophets, Ezekiel, is said to typify all anointed JW’s today. Supposedly, the entire body of anointed persons make up an “Ezekiel class.” Except, the thing is, no individual anointed JW’s independently interpret prophecy. As already stated, that is the sole prerogative of the Governing Body. So, even though the so-called “Ezekiel class” is composed of several thousand individuals, the Watchtower’s Governing Body has exclusive editorial rights. In effect, that makes the Governing Body the voice of the otherwise mute “Ezekiel class.”

Although the term “Ezekiel class” is not common parlance in the theocratic lingo of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it appeared most recently in the December 1st, 2003, Watchtower. In a question from readers the WT stated:

The modern-day watchman class, anointed Christians, have been warning about the doom of Christendom, antitypical Jerusalem. When the “great tribulation” strikes and devastates “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion, the anointed Ezekiel class will need to say nothing more about the demise of Christendom, which constitutes a major part of that empire.

So, here again, in today’s daily text the Ezekiel prophet is declaring that the great tribulation will begin when the nations destroy Babylon the Great. The Watchtower repeats this ad nauseam and never with so much as a single scripture to support their assertion. Notice, please, the verse cited in the text as proof —Revelation 17:5-7. However, a careful reading of that passage and the entire context provides nothing that would allow us to make the claim that the overthrow of the harlot from the beast begins the tribulation.

As regards the Watchtower’s interpretation of Ezekiel, it is claimed that “the house of Israel” is Christendom. Contradictorily, in many other prophecies the WT recognizes that “Israel” represents Christ’s congregation —the anointed sons. This is an example of counterfeit words. And it is why the verse cited above refers to the prophets of Israel who fabricate their own prophecies. This is precisely what the WT has done. That have fabricated an elaborate interpretation that places the Watchtower upon the elevated mountain of God.

According to the prophecy of Ezekiel the stupid prophets assure God’s people that there is peace with God —meaning, God has no issues at all with his approved organization. Does that not epitomize the Watchtower?

Essentially, Bethel’s prophets have placed the destruction of Babylon the Great as the only unfinished aspect of prophecy. Everything else has already been fulfilled —most especially, the coming of Christ, the very centerpiece of all prophecy. This, more than anything else, is why Jehovah will judge them as “stupid prophets.”

Just to underscore the stupidity of the Watchtower’s 1914 doctrine, the claim is made that Christ came in 1914 as the refiner, as foretold in the 3rd chapter of Malachi. The coming of the messenger of the covenant to the temple has to do with the judging of the house of God, which the inspired apostle said judgment starts with the house of God first. The judgment of the house of God results in the final reward of the faithful and punishment of the unfaithful. But according to the Watchtower’s teaching the judgment began in 1914. Inexplicably, though, the latest “adjustment” in 2013 correctly places the appointment of the faithful slave over all of the master’s belongings to a point in the future. Jehovah’s Witnesses are oblivious to the glaring contradiction.

The truth is, Christ has not in any sense come. His coming is a future event. That is why the prophecy of Malachi poses the unsettling question: “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears?”

The fiery appearance of Christ will be preceded by global war, famines and searing pandemics. The tribulation will come about, not with the fall of Babylon, but rather, the collapse of the governmental system —America foremost. Along with that global crash the Watchtower will collapse. That the prophecy in Ezekiel has a fulfillment in the Christian era ought to be evident from what is stated in the following passage: “O Israel, your prophets have become like foxes among the ruins. You will not go to the broken places in the stone walls to rebuild them for the house of Israel, so that Israel may keep standing in the battle in the day of Jehovah. They have seen false visions and foretold a lie, those who are saying, ‘The word of Jehovah is,’ when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited for their word to come true. Is it not a false vision that you have seen and a lie that you have foretold when you say, ‘The word of Jehovah is,’ when I have not said anything?”’

The battle in the day of Jehovah” is a reference to the day of the Lord, the coming of Christ. The stupid prophets of Israel have promulgated a lie in announcing that Christ’s Kingdom came in 1914. They have promoted a “false vision” in proclaiming that an invisible parousia has been ongoing for over 100 years. “They have waited for their word to come true,” but in vain. That is why the Watchtower will have no credibility during “the battle in the day of Jehovah.”

All of these decades the self-proclaimed Ezekiel class has had to revise and revise and revise again, just as portrayed in the same 13th chapter of Ezekiel, as plastering coat after coat of whitewash on a flimsy wall. All in vain, as Jehovah’s true watchman is told to announce to them: “Tell those plastering with whitewash that it will fall. A torrential downpour will come, hailstones will fall, and powerful windstorms will break it down. And when the wall falls you will be asked, ‘Where is your coating of plaster?’”

Since the first publication of Jehovah Himself Has Become King was distributed among the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 2005, this watchman has continued to put them on notice that their revered 1914 edifice is doomed to fall before Christ at his coming. (Original open letter that accompanied book.)

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2017-07-15T11:35:41+00:00 July 15th, 2017|Commentary|264 Comments
  • Dean LaRue

    If Jesus’s reign began in 1914, we are over 100 years into his millennial reign ? Oops wt that dog won’t hunt.

    • Richard Long

      And to my great shame that I ever expected it to!

      • Dean LaRue

        It’s hard to believe we used to happily eat this lie up and poop it out at people’s doorsteps. I’m ashamed of my gullibility.

        • Richard Long

          word!

          • Dean LaRue

            He’s in the right place to rebuild his faith in the “real truth”and find friends.

    • Ken Rosenberg

      I remember when I was brainwashed by 1914, I was trying to make out the details of 1914. When I came to this realization, my intuition immediately told me something was wrong, there is no way that the signs in Revelation that are supposed to take place before the 1,000 year reign had already happened, it is just common sense.

      • Burt Reynolds

        The way it was explained to me when I was studying was that 1914 marked the end of the 6,000 years since creation and that now, we were in the interval before Adam sinned, and which of course depends on how fast the animals were brought to him (He may well still be on Aardvark). That is probably old, old light, but I never had reason to doubt it. Who on being brought up on the watered down tripe of the Church of England would question it? I must have been an easy catch. If no one has taught you the truth, how easy it is to believe the lie!

    • Actually, it does hunt. Sadly, it’s just barking up the wrong tree. ;~)

  • Richard Long

    Thank you. Robert! The addition of the video featuring a previous talk on the subject matter was a very welcome complement to the essay. Try as one may, it is simply impossible to “catch up”. Surely it is Jehovah’s gift to us that has seen you labor so long with such care to produce such a volume of so carefully crafted enlightenment!

  • Simpletruth

    Awesome article!!! Keep up the great work! Although many of these things are repetitive and you’ve wrote about them several times it is still very helpful to reread so that when the time comes and the “whitewashed wall falls” we will know what is going on and why!

    • Burt Reynolds

      They are not repetitive if like me, you have forgotten them!

      • Simpletruth

        Definitely! I meant for Brother King they may be repetitive to write about. He’s mentioned something to that effect before so that was my way of reassuring him that we still need it:-)

        • Burt Reynolds

          Oh yes your right there. I can’t recall what I had for breakfast some days. They all seem fresh though so they must be overwritten. A lot of work indeed.

          • Simpletruth

            Exactly!?

  • Lisa-Lisa

    Another great article! THANK YOU!

  • Cathii D’Anthonii

    The apostles also went house to house and city to city without fully understanding the fulfillment of Christ’s sacrifice, even up to the last hours before his death..
    I am awed everyday that Jehovah has allowed some of us to be free of the dillusion the WT has established…

    • Richard Long

      Cathii, you might remember some weeks back where Huldah and I chewed on this topic. I really believe that without the early heads up now, I might be so incensed as to stumble myself off the deep end without time to recover at the actual parousia. Also believing many still “in” will just pivot. As Robert has reminded us in at least one podcast… “the healthy do not need a physician, do they
      ?” I am certainly not spiritually robust and absolutely need the physician.

    • Burt Reynolds

      That is a question I have too!

      • Cathii D’Anthonii

        Does_not this apply here on this site?
        Ezekiel.11:16–” Although I have scattered them among the lands, yet I shall become to them a sanctuary for a little while” among the lands to which they have come.”

        • Burt Reynolds

          Yes! I suppose it does. But I have difficulty assuming that that I am worthy of a sanctury ! Too many years being ‘a good for nothing slave, only doing as he aught…’ So the elders used to tell us. It was a bit of a two edged sword for them because in the end there was little hope even if you turned up at the meetings!!

          • Cathii D’Anthonii

            This young boy stood in my kitchen and told his story…..
            First, his mom was Pentecostal, his uncle an elder in our congregation. The mom would get mad and kick her brother out of her house, he would laugh and say I’m “not giving up on you”….. Her speaking in tongues and assoc of course brought demons.
            This little boy would hear a voice out of his toy box saying,”you will never live in paradise” . He grew up and became a jw, because he knew then it was the truth because the demons wanted him to feel unworthy…By the way, his mom became a witness,too.As a little boy he saw the trick.
            What can we say? Jesus your life wasn’t enough to cover my sins?

            • Daisy d

              My friends of fifty years had their grandchildren over and they were playing with their toys.
              Suddenly, one of the girl’s dolls begun walking – up the stairs!
              My friend, an elder, cried out in terror, “stop! In the name of Jesus!
              The doll answered ” which Jesus do you mean”?
              They burned the doll and looked askance when I told them there were many men named Jesus in Latin American countries.

            • Richard Long

              Classic, P!

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              Is it true! what do you mean? You mean a demonic doll!

            • Daisy d

              Yes! You can buy demon possessed dolls in e bay. Very cheap! Only 45 dollars. Every bad home must have! Collectable!

              I know its not funny but I’ve made myself laugh at least!
              Love Daisy without the d

            • Richard Long

              In the States, one can buy the doll at Goodwill charities or Dollar General stores and the possession is thrown in for free.:p

            • Daisy d

              Telegram to Richard Long:
              Bargain…! Ship immediately to Y.U.K….!
              Will burn on possession…!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Good pun there Daisy. Burn on possession!

            • Richard Long

              Hi Basa. Hope your big project is going well!

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              What do you mean by the project you mean that I am Interpreting Joel’s prophecy in depth, that is the project but I did not tell to anyone. I can say it is the extension work of Robert King. I will not buy any type doll even a toy for I fear that I will lose holy spirit. I love to have Jehovah’s spirit on me and I feel that but let me take some time to confirm, because as for now I am leading a Nazarite life. I am doing more on field service and my wife is having 5 bible studies and I am having at least 1. I love Jehovah and Jesus not doll.

            • Richard Long

              Yes. I was referring to the work you have undertaken. I did not know details other than what you had hinted at before. You are a person of great interest to me, that’s all. The doll thing is just sick humor. I have never knowingly experienced contact with demons and hopefully never will.
              Blessings, RL

            • Burt Reynolds

              Wow! I’ve never seen anything as direct as that! Well, apart from Margaret thatcher of course, but that was expected. She was able to walk up steps too.

  • Ken Rosenberg

    This is the best article to use in order to shut up all JWs who try to refute that the Governing Body are not prophets through whatever silly reasoning they use.

    • Richard Long

      Ken, do you actually find yourself having to do that a lot?

      • Ken Rosenberg

        everyday on their subreddit https://reddit.com/r/JWs They will justify any action in anyway. Like Trinitarians who cannot be reasoned with.

        Isaiah 42:18

        They are in self denial, “The GB are not prophets, therefore they can’t be false prophets.” They still defend 1914 as if the generation has not passed away. But they go silent when I copy and past my rebuttal that I posted in the forum here. They then reset the following day. All of my real life friends; same story.

        • Richard Long

          Glad you’re strong enough to deal with it. I doubt I could do it without putting a lot more unnecessary sin in the bucketful I already carry around! lol

        • Burt Reynolds

          Hello Ken, what is this r/JW site? Is it owned by JWs? Thanks.

          • Ken Rosenberg

            That is a subreddit ran by Jehovah’s Witnesses, they live in their happy little bubble where Christ has wasted 1/10 of his reign.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Okay…..what is a subreddit!? I’m computer illiterate! Thanks.

            • Richard Long

              Follow the link Ken posted, you can safely see for yourself.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I did have a look. It seemed like a ‘condemn everyone’ site for the blind. Not totally sure because I couldn’t force myself past the first few pages, I was beginning to think about becoming a Mormon.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              A super organized Facebook group.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks.

  • Daisy d

    “According to the prophesy of Ezekiel the stupid prophets assure God’s people that there is peace with God – meaning, God has no issues at all with his approved organisation. Does that not epitomize the Watchtower?”

    Religion is a snare and a racket came into my head whilst walking my dog earlier today. I googled those words of J. Rutherford as soon as time permitted and tapped onto his talk “Warning from Judge Rutherford” recorded in 1939. Surprisingly, he has a very pleasant sounding voice, he’s reading quickly and his speech lasts
    about 45 minutes. What I heard was him decrying the fact of God having a “religion” at all and basically, not being followers of men, and he mentions Christ continuously throughout, but my phone cut out half way, so he may have got around to jws being the only true “religion” even though God’s word never mentions the word in quotes.

    Imo, Rutherford would be turning in his grave at what’s become of his idea of Jehovah’s witnesses.

    Have a nice day brothers and sisters!

    • KB

      Well, you may know from my previous comments I’m not a fan of Rutherford. The problem is, is that power and money corrupt. He had both at his disposal, and so do the present day GB. Its true that religion is a snare and a racket as he said. Of course he at the time was talking about all other religions not his own. But the JWs have become a snare and a racket as well. I guess in the near future brother King will find out if Rutherford had a real heavenly calling. We won’t know until the people who died in the 1940s are resurrected. Either way he will be where Jehovah wants him to be and I am fine with that. I no long put anyone on a pedestal, because I can’t read hearts and I can’t see the things people keep in their “closets”.

      • Richard Long

        Now that the rage immediate to discovery of betrayal has passed for me, I’m finding great appreciation for the way Robert treats Russell, Rutherford and Franz. (I’ve not yet seen any commentary on Knorr or Henshell) One can comfortably recognize these ones as true children of God specifically used in a mighty and extraordinary way to to accomplish His purposes AND as the ridiculous caricatures we all see in hindsight, I think. Makes the very having accomplished it all the more miraculous, doesn’t it?

        When I REALLY want to laugh, I imagine what you all might see were Jehovah to use me in such a way.

        • Burt Reynolds

          That’s a good way of putting it, to recognise their work, but also their human caricatures of foolishness. The bible says that too….to make fools of those…I bury my confusion as to the genuineness of these people in the term that ‘they were victims of victims’. I think what is possibly the answer is that they got the work done in spite of themselves. If it were left to them in any large way, I think all they would have achieved is a car park full of limousines, a cellar full of wine, and a portfolio of luxury houses built for returning saints. I’m probably being a bit mean, but……it’s clear that Jehovah directed His work in spite of the failings of men. ( Rutherford building that house with the brothers donations at a time when the world was spiralling down to the Great Depression ……if that was a sign if holy appreciation back then, I shudder to think what it would be like now…!)

        • The Raven

          Good way of looking at this.

      • Burt Reynolds

        Yes. I find that too about pedestals and people! It is very difficult to extrapolate truth from reward for telling it, just as the disciples were in awe of Jesus. Just as when people can be seen for telling the truth, by critical analysis by the reader, one naturally starts to put trust in what that one says, whilst continuing to check it for its truth. We have to do that. There is no escaping it, because someone must be the teller of truth. It may not be just one. It may be, probably is, many. I think some do go overboard on the matter but that seems to be cultural rather than misplaced reverence for the Word of Jehovah, but I too feel the joy at the revealing of the word. We are also told through the bible to support these ones, but you’re right, there is a scriptural balance to be observed I quite agree. We all have closets. And yet, some of these are actually chosen, along with their closets, to be in heaven and are judged so, on their intent, and heart condition alone. For me, as far as I am concerned, my trust and support is their reward, because it’s all I have to give. What they do with that trust, will ultimately be their reward from Jehovah. We don’t have to worry about that bit.

      • Ken Rosenberg

        Rutherford can’t be Anointed simply because of his 1914 fantasy.

        • Richard Long

          Pretty hard stance, Ken! Isn’t that somewhat like saying kings Saul or Solomon were never annointed?

          • Ken Rosenberg

            Those two were hand selected by Jehovah.

            • Richard Long

              Not arguing, just saying…. You could, of course, be quite right.

            • Richard Long

              And it turned out how well??? Either way, Jehovah’s purposes were accomplished through individuals not entirely worthy of imitation. Or is that not a point we can agree on?

              Ken, my brother, please don’t think I’m an apologist for Rutherford. I’m simply stating that I have drawn some measure of peace from emulating Robert’s treatment of these men.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Rutherford is part of the body that encompasses the MOL. If he was anointed, he will not recieve the gift for misleading millions. The 144k are unblemished.

              I am of the opinion that the Anointed cannot be misled, therefore they don’t believe 1914.

            • The Raven

              Before or after the master arrives? My understanding is they are not at a point where they are fully aware of all hidden matters…yet. They can make mistakes. Once Christ arrives they will be sorted, disciplined and be given the words for the final witness. The old ones were winging quite a bit of this. But look what they’ve accomplished in spite of it all. I can’t say whether or not he will be among them but he and others with him had a hand in fulfilling a large part of prophecy. For better or for worse.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Mistakes, sure. But 1914 gets addressed in it’s own chapter of the Bible as something that it’s believers will be killed for at Armageddon. That is not just any mistake, but something compared to Judas Iscariot.

            • The Raven

              It was a deluding influence permitted by Jehovah. It is about the same as sending prophets to people Jehovah knows will not listen. Or telling them the prophets will speak lies. Or even silencing a prophet who speaks truth because he has determined who will hear it and who won’t. The purpose for it will only play out in the final days at judgement. Was he one of the anointed? I don’t know. But I cannot say he wasn’t in light of the fact that Jehovah hasn’t revealed all there is to know just yet.
              The bitter scroll and other hidden prophecy.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Permitted and creating are two different things.

              Are you saying Rutherford will inherit God’s Kingdom after misleading millions?

            • The Raven

              There are many examples of men who did rotten stuff but still found Jehovah’s favor. In the bigger picture I’d say, God has His reasons for using men like that and it appears Rutherford went full on with the world.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Just because he used them, doesn’t mean that he sent them. What about the false prophet in 1 Kings 13? Are you saying Jehovah told him to sin and lie? It is ludicrous.

              What about Nebuchadnezzar? Was Jehovah also commanding him to act wickedly?

            • The Raven

              That’s true, but how do you know this? Look what they accomplished in the face of some daunting situations. The fact remains under their guidance they brought the news worldwide. What goes between him and His maker is their business. I cannot and will not guess as to his fate.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              When you say they, you are referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

              I never said Jehovah’s Witnesses are unrighteous, but the false teacher is, the one who’s presence is via Satan.

              1914 is a teaching of demons.

            • The Raven

              But even there as long as Jehovah permitted this to happen we don’t see what else was going on and the full story behind why he permitted some of their leaders to do these things but still allowed the word to go forward. See what I’m saying, Ken?
              There are matters here we are not certain of. How far was he going in this or was he led?

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Just because he allows it, doesn’t mean that they were sent by him. The false prophets in Ezekiel 13, 14; were they placed there by Jehovah?

              Jehovah allows freewill, he didn’t put anyone wicked in charge to mislead his people, he looked into the future and saw what happens, then made the Prophecy as a warning.

            • The Raven

              But his people were all sinners and occasionally prone to wickedness. David, Solomon among others. They were not perfect and the times were way different too. The deluding influence in THIS day has ramifications beyond what we know since not all prophecy is known …yet. Not all the scrolls are understood…yet.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              But they repented, these men have not, not even 103 years later, they are now teaching a new lie about overlapping generations. Their judgement has already been written in 2 Thessalonians 2.

            • The Raven

              The men who first came to that conclusion are long dead. We do not know what Jehovah did with them concerning the 1914 debacle. But since then there are a number of men who are part of the leadership who promote this and I don’t know if all of them are ignorant of this or not. Robert has been revealing these matters directly to them for years now. I suspect some know it and some still do not.
              But, you and I both know when judgement begins all will be revealed and Jehovah knows who is His and who isn’t whereas we can only guess. Then… the punishments are meted out. Then…some are disciplined and some are consigned to fire.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              This is why I do not call the Governing Body of today the man of Lawlessness, instead I refer to the Watchtower as a whole, because it could be anyone. I do not know them. But it is very clear that the Man of Lawlessness came into the truth through Rutherford. For even Russell realized he was wrong in, 1914.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Because if you subscribe to that way of thinking, you are pretty much saying Jehovah’s power is limited. If he can aid millions of people into finding the Truth, why can’t he stop one man from false Prophesying? I suppose you then believe in the new light doctrine?

              Jehovah didn’t give Russell 1914, he did that on his own.

            • The Raven

              Whoa. You go way too far in assuming anything about me. What I stated was what was done. I cannot judge another man especially not one who had a hand in the massive push to bring the good news to the earth. What I said before stands. It is Jehovah who judges, not you or I.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Let me ask you, will false prophets, which are liars, thieves, murderers, fornicators and those practicing spiritism, will they be resurrected to judgement or life?

            • The Raven

              Do you know for certain who is what? You could also say the all the JW who preached the 1914 lie are doomed as well. So is anyone who believed it. Whether they were under the deluding influence or not.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              The Bible has already judged for me. It is my job to discern right from wrong based off the scriptures.

              And according to the scriptures, and history, since no one else has taught this doctrine, like ever. And if you believe Jehovah’s Witnesses have the truth, then the only possible explanation is that Rutherford and members of the Watchtower are the man of Lawlessness, simply because Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s Temple, and this man of Lawlessness teaches that Christ’s presence/day began in 1914.

              Now it is a different discussion regarding how Jehovah will judge Jehovah’s Witnesses. According to Revelation 11, the two Witnesses will Prophesy for 3 1/2 years and torture the Earth, if this is to take place before the manifestation, then Jehovah’s Witnesses will have been warned for 3 1/2 years about their false Prophecy. If they refuse to adhere to the two Witnesses, Jesus will return and judge them, and they will not be saved because they took pleasure in unrighteousness. I do not think Jesus will return out of the blue and judge them all without giving them a chance.

            • The Raven

              I don’t recall the bible saying that Russell and Rutherford are damned. You are the one saying that. I do not believe JW have the whole truth. How could they? Another assumption. This never happened before because Jehovah did not allow a deluding influence before. But that doesn’t seem to have any weight at all does it? You are conflating two different issues here and this boils down to your insistence on knowing who in particular are saved or damned.
              Yes. I think its safe to say everyone here already knows that Jehovah judges his house first, Ken. We have all discussed this at length.
              But my bottom line here is that I do not know and neither do you.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Again, I never said they were Damned, I said they will not inherit the heavenly hope because an anointed person who receives the seal is unblemished.

              See, Jehovah’s Witnesses do have the truth though, about everything, they check all the boxes, good and bad. Even their 1914 doctrine is prophesied about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

              He has allowed a deluding influence before, Paul said himself the mystery of this Lawlessness was already at work 2 thousand years ago.

              Secondly, the false prophets of ancient Israel were a deluding influence, Jehovah allowed it in his house back then too.

              What do I not know?

              Everyone knows Jehovah will not allow false prophets into his heavenly kingdom. it is common sense, false prophets are in league with Satan.

            • The Raven

              But what you still do not apply here is the fact that Jehovah has Himself allowed this deluding influence in the final days. If Robert who considers himself among the chosen isn’t saying it, well, neither will I. I will let his words be my thoughts on this matter.
              It’s amazing to me that everyone thinks they know all there is to know about why God does what he does.

              https://e-watchman.com/judge-rutherford/

            • The Raven

              Do you know for certain who will and who won’t? I don’t.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Because it has been said over and over that only the righteous will inherit God’s kingdom. And 2 Thessalonians 2 specifically calls the lie an unrighteous deception.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              So will Judas Iscariot inherit God’s kingdom? After all, Jehovah did allow him to betray Jesus.

              The MOL and Judas are both called the son of destruction.

              The MOL teaches 1914, and you are justifying this son of destruction for heavenly life?

              At most, he will get a resurrection with the wicked.

              This false Prophecy is apostasy.

              Luke 21:8

            • The Raven

              Who gave you the ability to judge who is anointed and who isn’t? Cause I sure can’t. Careful how far you go with those assumptions. He was a man qualified to deal with the miserable authorities and the times not a pussy cat by any means. I can’t take that any further. Robert IMO is correct about the matter.
              Judas was in the presence of the divine when he betrayed Christ. Rutherford was in the presence of a miserable religious and governmental system which required an equally hard nosed approach. The two don’t compare.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Reread my comment, I said if he was Anointed, he will not be given the heavenly reward. Those examples you brought of men who made mistakes, they repented, had Rutherford repented and realized his mistake he would have terminated the 1914 doctrine, and removed himself as the head of the organization. He did no such thing and died thinking he was headed straight to heaven.

              Rutherford and CT Russell are both false prophets, if they were Anointed they will not be given the reward. It is impossible that Jehovah would inspire them to teach false doctrine, it is like saying the holy Spirit has lied.

            • The Raven

              It’s possible Jehovah permitted what they did to further the broader agenda here and that was to preach the basic truths to the world. They under the guidance of these men, did just that. What he though about where he is going doesn’t matter. It’s what Jehovah thinks and I am not so confident in my ability to guess who finds favor and who doesn’t especially with folks I never met.

            • Marvin W

              Romans 9:17,22-23 show exactly why the WTBTS exists. It’s singular purpose is to make the name of Jehovah know worldwide.

            • The Raven

              Hi Marvin, Of course. This I know. If you’ll look at the rest of the Comments and discussions I and several others here have made we agree.

            • Dr. Moreau

              “if they were Anointed they will not be given the reward.”
              only Jehovah knows that. we dont know if those two deliberately
              taught what was incorrect or if they just didnt know any better.
              i bet they just didnt know any better

            • Richard Long

              Could have gone down something like this:

              2 Chron 18:19 Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool King Aʹhab of Israel, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. 20 Then a spirit*+ came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ 21 He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ 22 And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours,+ but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.”

              NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENED!!!!, just saying could have.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Read Ezekiel 13, 14 to see how Jehovah feels about the matter.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              King Saul – A Type of the Evil Slave.

              Excerpt:
              Remember, too, when Saul was first anointed to be Israel’s king he was genuinely humble. But in time he grew more and more prideful and presumptuous and eventually turned his back on Jehovah altogether. Saul was not content that David was crushing Jehovah’s enemies wherever he went. Saul wanted the glory for it and could not countenance any praise going toward David. Because of his bad heart Jehovah’s bad spirit came upon him.

              Similarly, the Watchtower had a humble beginning. But over the years it too has developed a proud and haughty demeanor. It is not content to merely publish Bible-based material and offer encouragement and support to Jehovah’s Witnesses. It demands to be glorified as Jehovah’s untarnished and infallible mouthpiece. It seeks to dominate all of those who have been anointed. It countenances no rival and will judicially kill any and all who dare to question its holiness.

              Eventually Jehovah took Saul out and David became king. Likewise, in time the evil slave will be exposed. Like Jannes and Jambres, his madness will be plain for all to see. Then Jesus will exalt a new leadership to the fore. Then the greater David will impose a test of loyalty upon all of those who previously supported “Saul.” Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/king-saul-type-evil-slave/

            • Dr. Moreau

              did Russell & Rutherford claim the same as todays GB as visionaries an prophets? its my opinion they meant well but
              it is todays stupid prophets unless Russ & Rutherford somehow became “jackals among ruins” back then

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Russell and Rutherford created the Prophecy that today’s Governing Body rules by.

              The first failure was in 1874. Then it failed again in 1914, then in 1928 Rutherford brought it back. From there it kept evolving as it kept failing, finally they created the overlapping generations teaching because it was apparent 1914 failed and the master was delaying.

            • Dr. Moreau

              yeah true, i knew that already. thanks for the reminder too. maybe youre right. how was Rutherford and each person responsible? do you think those two had deceitful intentions to mislead as the man of lawlessness?

            • Ken Rosenberg

              I don’t think they were deliberately deceptive, just so arrogant that they thought every stupid idea in their head was from God.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The Deluding Influence.
              Excerpted.
              Thursday, April 14

              God made you alive.—Eph. 2:1.

              What a contrast there is between young servants of Jehovah and youths of this world! Many who do not serve Jehovah lead a self-centered way of life, focusing only on what they want. Some researchers call them “Generation Me.” By the way they talk and dress, they give evidence of disdain for the older generation, whom they view as not “with it.” That spirit is all around us. Thus, young servants of Jehovah find that it takes real effort to avoid it and to accept God’s view. Even in the first century, Paul found it necessary to urge fellow believers to avoid “the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” and in which they “at one time walked.” Young ones who see the need to avoid that spirit and to work unitedly with all their brothers are to be commended. As we approach the end of this old world, working together unitedly will become ever more important.

              COMMENTARY

              “As we approach the end of this old world.” That expression typifies the utter blindness that Jehovah’s Witnesses are afflicted with presently. It is a blindness imposed upon everyone from the top down. Paul referred to this phenomenon as a “deluding influence.”

              The passage in context states: “But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie…”

              In that same chapter of 2 Thessalonians Paul had warned the brothers not to be quickly shaken from their reason or alarmed by authoritative announcements that the presence of Christ and the day of Jehovah is here. As an indication of the thoroughness of the deluding influence, the Watchtower has been heralding the presence of Christ since its inception.

              The powerful works and lying signs and wonders are evident in the outworking of the patched together chronology, which was originally supported by pryamidology, divining the year 1914 when something was going to happen. And wonder of wonders, something did happen. The First World War began. Then Satan orchestrated the persecution of the Watchtower and afterwards put his agents to work deciphering prophecy to explain virtually everything as revolving around 1914 and the grand release from captivity in Babylon the Great in 1919.

              As a result, there is no expectation of any sort of future parousia or the coming of Christ to commence the judgment. That is all theocratic history. Truly, only his powerful presence can disabuse Jehovah’s Witnesses from the grip of the deluding influence cast over them by the Watchtower.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Who is Behind 1914, really?…..Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/behind-1914-really/

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The Operation of Satan with Every Powerful Work
              Excerpt:.
              In his wisdom Jehovah has not revealed all the truth. He has, in fact, allowed for Satan to wield a “deluding influence” over the entire organization of Kingdom preachers. Paul foretold that Jehovah would allow a man of lawlessness to exist as an “operation of Satan,” to cause a lie to stand until the manifestation of Jesus Christ. Here is what Paul wrote: “But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

              The “lie” that they have come to believe is not the age-old lies espoused by Christendom, such as the trinity lie or the immortal soul lie. The context reveals that “the lie” that God allows has to do with the coming of Christ. Paul specifically forewarned the brothers that there would be a false proclamation that the parousia has begun and that the day of Jehovah is here. Here is what he wrote: “However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”

              Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/operation-satan-every-powerful-work/

            • KB

              1914 is one the biggest things the JWs are known for. There are many other things that separate them from other religions too, but 1914 is at the top. There is absolutely no way they will ever walk away from there teaching of 1914. All credibility will be utterly destroyed. That’s the kicker, it will be apparent in the future when the real parousia begins. Im looking so forward to that time I can assure you. Can you imagine all these JWs who thought they knew how everything was gonna unfold. Robert wrote an article one time about the JWs being cocksure of future events. Here is a small quote of what he said.

              “In actuality, though, the truth can have a powerful, intoxicating effect upon a person, causing them to be overconfident – cocksure of their own understanding and of their supposed good standing with God.

              Is that the actual state of mind of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Jehovah’s point of view? Yes, it is. Among Jehovah’s Witnesses the prevailing attitude is that merely following the program laid out by the Watchtower Society assures one of salvation and the Watchtower undeniably subtly promotes that culture”.

              The look on their faces of wonderment and hopelessness. PRICELESS!!!

            • Richard Long

              If the false parousia delusion is from the operation of error, and the operation of error lasts to the real parousia, then you’re absolutely right. You also did not need me to tell you this! lol.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I have felt the same. But then I realised that though being pleased to be vindicated, we should not not rejoice in the failure of others. It is deception that will cost many their lives sadly.

            • Richard Long

              I hope to be so occupied surviving my own beating to be unable to witness the facial expressions or others.

            • KB

              I guess it’s in how you look at it. All 8,000,000 plus JWs have the ability to find the real truth right now. What’s so special about you or me or the others here that we have found out before hand? Will this information help us survive the coming events? I hope so, but we have no guarantees of that either. It’s gonna be a very big pill to swallow for most JWs, who are the most self righteous and judgmental people who walk the face of this earth. They all will have the opportunity to walk away from the Watchtower at that time and put faith in Jehovah and Jesus when the real parousia begins. If they choose otherwise that’s on them and we can’t feel regret or sorrow for their loss. Did Noah feel regret over the loss of life in his day? He preached to them and no one listened. They had their chance for salvation and they turned away from it. Salvation is at hand now too, but JWs are willing to put more faith in a man made “visible” organization than faith in what they can’t see, Jehovah. The Israelites did it too in Moses day. There’s a pattern here it seems. This is crystal clear to me and you and the others here, but for some reason most have allowed themselves to be blinded by their blind guides, the Bible has warned us of this but most ignore the warnings. I’m sure I will feel regret over their loss, but will rejoice in the vindication of Jehovah. I’m not sure if you go to the meetings regularly, don’t think you do from your many past comments but I could be wrong. I do, and the self righteousness is alive a well in the Kingdom Hall. So you are correct in saying I will be very pleased in my vindication, after all I’m only human. But after what I’ve been through, that’s the part that wil make it PRICELESS.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely, I agree. I don’t know why I see the truth here, and I know that when I was a practicing witness that I would not have looked twice at this site. Even though I don’t go to meetings I am aware of the biting self righteousness of my sister and brother in law and from what I see n the watchtower website. You’re right. I just don’t know why some hear the voice before time, and others not until there is no time, and still others not at all. I wish someone here would say how it was for them. For me, when Eric explained the truth from the bible of my question, I knew it immediately to be so. And that was only a fraction, one question, about the bible. But I knew from then on, that the truth was here. Maybe it was a Saul of tarsus moment!

            • Joseph Stephan

              Because of being “the most self righteous and judgmental people who walk the face of this earth”, that’s a good good reason for me to study at home.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Saves on contributions too.

            • Richard Long

              KB, regarding JW’s as self-righteous and judgemental, I can only say that while “in”, I resembled that remark. Often! Burt has often recounted the same here. I think it entirely appropriate to be both joyful at the condition of having evil removed from our proximity and to concurrently have even very profound remorse at the senseless destruction some have brought on themselves. I will go out on a limb and say Noah very likely had conflicting feelings in his situation and likely had his resolve thoroughly tested many times. It is not just his triumph, but his struggle as well, which is held up for an example to us, correct?

              Peace and Blessings, Brother!

            • Dr. Moreau

              ““Whom did you become frightened at and begin to fear, so that you took up lying? But I was not the one that you remembered. You took nothing to your heart. Was I not keeping silent and hiding matters? So you were in no fear even of me.”

              errg Robert, you really got to try and do something about this banner taking up the entire screen. (mobile)

            • e.v.g

              They are knowing e watchman message. According to Russell’s history, he spend his money spreading the hidden doctrines in the bible, although we didn’t know personally this man, it seems that he had a genuine interest in the truth, we don’t know also if this man was an illuminati puppet, anyway, the leadership of JW’s don’t have a genuine interest in the truth.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Than who is there to blame for the lie?….If those men was anointed and didnt know any better….i belive you see where the “finger point” at….
              Jehovah is the one who do the anointig…He do no mistakes…men do.

              Adam blamed his own mistake on Jehovah,when he said :”the woman whom you gave to be with me,she gave me fruit from the tree,so i ate.”(Gen.3:12)
              By thinking and saying so,he actually said that the blame goes all the way back to Jehovah himself because the woman he gave Adam was no good…

              So if we run by the similar conclusion that “the presidents (Russel,Rutherford) you gave (if they was anointed) gave us the “fruit” and we ate…

              So what are we supposed belive and do?

              Of all the men and woman that Jehovah have anointed to be prophets and speak words from Him….written down for us to read in the Bible…no lie is ever been told.

              All lie orginate from only one source…the father of lies,satan

              Why and how could Jehovah allowe this lie to be told and presented like it was a word from Jehovah Himself?The answer is in 1 Kings chapter 22…

              In a similar way as i the garden of Eden..Jehovah allowed satan to test the lojality of the first two humans..likewise Jehovah has allowed satan to continue this testing to determing who really is lojal to Him and the truth…haughty people like many of the kings in ancient times (and “kings” in modern times ) has been humbled and some even killed because they rather stayed by the lie…
              The truth has alwayes been and still is available for those who humbly seeks it..:-)

              And it is true that many are called but few are chosen…

              The real battle is between the truth and the lie….it is close to the end of this” war”…
              continue to fight for the truth and for Jehovah my friend…i welcome you to this site and i am happy to fight by your side 🙂

            • Dr. Moreau

              im D.A .
              my account is still banned although
              Robert un-banned it.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Haha…i should know…the avatar made me think of you 🙂
              welcome back brother

            • Dr. Moreau

              yeah im lost to even whats going on here

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Ok..mybe it is exactley what we have to go thru all of us…i mean that odd feeling of beeing lost…make me think of the apostles when Jesus was arrested…they feelt completley lost i guess…ore maybe you was thinking of something else?

            • Dr. Moreau

              in the comments if others

            • Arvid Fløysand

              I see…i noticed the same …looks like we are in a rocky part of the narrow road leading to life

            • Dr. Moreau

              so is Robert going to loose his reward because he scrapped one
              of his articals that was in error?
              doubt it

            • Arvid Fløysand

              The beauty of it is that all matter that has to do with final judgement is not of any humans concern 🙂
              We are supposed to leave those matters to those two who are able to read the heart…

            • Dr. Moreau

              1-Cor 4:4

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Good one…

            • KB

              I don’t think the fact that their writing at times was way off base, will keep them from their heavenly reward. Nor the fact that Robert has written things that are slightly off base will keep him from his heavenly hope. That’s just because humans are imperfect. I don’t expect someone who is anointed to be hypocritical in the way they live their lives behind closed doors, and I don’t believe Jehovah will look the other way either. There are many documented accounts of both men engaging in inappropriate behavior. It’s in Jehovah’s hands whether or not they do or don’t. No skin off my back either way. Both men did some good in the progression of the organization. They also did bad things.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I don’t know that the lie belongs to one person. The lie has to be agreed and accepted. We are all in a collective swimming pool of lies and it seems we won’t know until the plug is pulled, who will get out, and who will be sucked down the drain. Some must have knowingly lied, but only they will know and Jehovah.

            • Richard Long

              So true. We all know that, for certain, there is one name attached to any and all corruption anywhere.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Dont you think satan knows somting about lies too?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hmmm, he may do. I think there might be a possibility there Arvid. You could be on to something…..

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Scriptures for thought.
              And during that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.

              And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
              Daniel 12:1-2 Read more>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/bi12/books/daniel/12/

              Also read (
              7) Let him that has ears listen.
              https://e-watchman.com/part-7-let-him-that-has-ears-listen/

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a bit of a paradox Ken. If Rutherford thought 1914 was not true, he would not die expecting to go to heaven. If he knew it to be a lie and had misled the flock deliberately, would he have confidence in his resurrection? Hardly. We just don’t know if he had a motive, or was just decieved. If I had been Rutherford and had the dissapointment of 1914 (as I did of 1975), then I would naturally have looked to its meaning, and he eventually alighted on that but we don’t know from what motive. I know this is only pointless conjecture, and the moreso because of his apparant behaviours, and greed for power. All that we could suggest is that he was called. Whether he was chosen, well, that’s up to Jehovah.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              It doesn’t matter what his intentions were. Jehovah is no longer overlooking ignorance, and in Ezekiel he called the false prophets stupid, because they were also ignorant like Rutherford. Eve was decieved because of her stupidity and she paid for it.

              Acts 17:30

              Now you come and say, the creator of the doctrine that misled millions and allows the MOL to exist is going to become resurrected to Angelic life? A drunkard who built Beth sarim?

              Look up the definition of Holy, because that is what the 144k are and Rutherford is anything but Holy according to the scriptures, he is someone Luke 21:8 says to not go after.

              And how do you know he is Anointed? Just because he said so?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Ken. I don’t know if Rutherford was of the annointed. I would not think he would be, judging by his behaviour, and drunkenness and ill use of the brothers money for his own comfort. But neither am I asked to make that decision so I don’t. All I said was that it was a bit of a paradox as stated, not any confirmation at all as to his status before Jehovah. And to be sure, I do not disbelieve anyone who claims to be annointed, because many are called but few are chosen. I’m happy for them if they are. In the interim, I just don’t let it affect my life, but am nonetheless grateful for those that preach the truth.

              As for the watchtower, it may take one person to be false, but all the others were, and still are complicit in believing it and promulgating it. Can they all have done so deliberately knowing it to be false? Rutherford may have stated it, and his life may have been plagued by greed and alcohol, but whether he knew 1914 as a lie, or inspiration, we just don’t know. His death pays for his abuse of alcohol and money, but whether his support of 1914 condemns him is rather out of my pay grade.

              I think we need to bear in mind how traumatic the Great War was. It was the first time that we could slaughter each other on an industrial scale. Whole villages in England were wiped out of men, leaving a community of women and children alone and starving. 20,000 killed in one day, blind, lame, mentally ill survivors, Spanish flu, another 20,000.000. The economic status of America, Germany England Russia, wiped out along with its people. Who would not view that as ‘the beginning of the end’? Who would have guessed with the depression that followed, that worse was yet to come with the A bomb. It’s easy to condemn in retrospect, and all the things you say have a good basis, but it’s not the final decision. If the watchtower were to be destroyed and go down as God fearing people, how can that be justified? The worse they become, the greater the vindication of Jehovah’s name. That’s why people are told to get out of her. Those that remain, do so because they will not believe what is plainly shown. I don’t think Rutherford knew that choice existed. I don’t think the apostle Paul was a nice guy before he got a vision most of us would appreciate deeply.

            • e.v.g

              According to jesus five virgins will be fools, the holy spirit do not reveal all secrets. Daniel the prophet, he had holy spirit but he didn’t understand all prophecies. I guess that Russell wanted to understand something understandable, yet.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              So 1914 is right?

            • e.v.g

              I don’t think so, Russell was obsessed with prophecies, I think he was fooled by satan.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. In this game we’re all fools. If nothing else, Robert has helped us to understand paradox. It’s apparent Russell had more that one voice whispering in his ear and likely couldn’t distinguish which one was talking when.

            • KB

              Satan has undermined and infiltrated all forms of true religion and false religion since religions inception. As for whether Russell has a heavenly hope, that will be determined in the future. I’m sure hes in the grave and in Jehovah’s memory, and will be either resurrected or have a heavenly position. I think it takes a special person to actually end up as one of the 144,000. After much research on both Russell and Rutherford I don’t believe either really have a heavenly calling. I realize Its just not for me to say one way or the other really, this is just my opinion. Anybody can say they are anointed but are they really. Many people like climbing the ladder in the organization. Pretty easy to claim you are anointed and have instant respect from your peers. Look at what Robert went through at the time of his calling. Many of the GB I’m sure doubted his calling, but what do the facts show. IMO Roberts writing and his understanding of the scriptures speak for themselves. I’m not real impressed with the information that bethel has spewed forth up until this time.

            • Dr. Moreau

              i think some just got carryied away apart from others we know meant to mislead. when Russ said the nations have had their day, i think he belived that himself because he was mistaken

            • Arvid Fløysand

              The five fool virgins did not enter the wedding…the time they arriwed,the door was closed like the door of Noah`s ark…in both chases those standing on the outside was and will understand but too late…the fool virgins got “oil” to lighten their lamps but too late….No prophet sent by Jehovah has ever lied…but prophets from the father of lies do,and Jehovah allowes those to operate amoung and in same periode of time as His own prophets…many examples of this in Bible..true prophets of Jehovah often used to be challenged by false prophets…the false ones is like the pharisee of old times…they like to place themseves on the most visible plases and to be honored by people…they love attension .
              False prophets also used to struck the true ones in the face…(1 Kings 22:24)

              It is true that the holy spirit do not reveal all secrets in one go…but it is also true that the holy spirit does never reveal lies….we do know were lies orginate from

              So is JW a false religion because lies have been told inside that org.?
              No..the garden of Eden was not a false garden because a lie was told inside that garden…the garden itself was perfect…the people in charge did a big mistake when they belived and put their hope in the lie…the result was they had to leave the garden…

              Than how do Jehovah keep his organisation (garden) clean in our time?
              His organisation is spiritual…the earthly one was done with when Jesus died…
              There is no room for lying prophets in Jehovah`s spiritual org.
              In our physical realm/world it is not visible for the eye who belong to Jehovah`s spiritual org. and who belong to satans org.
              And we also know that satan are able to make himself look like and angel of light…if that is so..then i guess he can make his prophets do so as well
              When a true prophet from Jehovah (like Daniel) did not understand a holy secret ,they alwayes admit it and say: “i do not understand”…they are humble…they do not act like kings ore make themselves like masters of faite…they take no honor to themselves…well they can do mistakes like Moses once did.But he admited it and humbled himself…and he had to pay for it…so if a great prophet like Moses could not enter the promised land even tho he admit and regret one big mistake when he took credit for a miracle …then what about haugty leaders who act like presidents and kings in modern times who never admit any wrongdoings?…instead they blame others …lets stay with the meek ones my brother 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Huh?????

            • Bklyn Kevin

              “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.”Romans 14:4.

              What about Judge Rutherford?….

              Did Rutherford have issues? No doubt. Was he brusque and overbearing? Probably so. Did he like the booze, even during Prohibition? Apparently. Was he responsible for demonizing any who opposed him? He was a lawyer, wasn’t he? Did he have martial problems? Evidently.

              But despite his personal flaws he brought Jehovah’s Witnesses into the spotlight on the world stage. His books, like Enemies, were very powerful exposes of false religion. Rutherford’s boldness and outspokenness seems to be what the Bible Students/Jehovah’s Witnesses needed at the time to brace themselves for the persecution that came upon them in Nazi Germany and in America and throughout the English speaking world. His combative nature emboldened Jehovah’s Witnesses to defy Hitler and stand up to wave after wave of persecution in the United States. Taking the broader view, it appears that Joseph Franklin Rutherford was well suited for the times in which he lived.
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/judge-rutherford/

            • Ken Rosenberg

              Read Ezekiel 13,14,22
              Deuteronomy 18:20-22

              Jehovah is not fond of false prophets, I am judging based off the word of God, he has already judged the qualities of a false prophet. And they will not recieve the gift of 144k.

              Do we have proof that he was Anointed? This self appointed fds?

            • Richard Long

              Ken, I will only reiterate my original observation: “That is a pretty hard stance.” May Jehovah give you all the strength you will need to weather the raging storms of resistance to it you have and no doubt will continue to face for your choice to make it!

            • Ken Rosenberg

              He didn’t bring Jehovah’s Witnesses into the spotlight.

              Jehovah’s Witnesses did, you are taking all the hours spent preaching the good news by the thousands of people and giving all the credit to Rutherford.

              People act like Rutherford personally knocked on all the doors and conducted all the meetings. You are making him to be a god in God’s Temple by saying he was solely responsible. All he did was publish an abomination of Prophecy and went beyond the things written.

            • The Raven

              That’s pretty much how I see it too. he was a tough man that’s for sure.

            • Richard Long

              Annnnnndddd … … … he delivers!

              Kevin you ARE a blessing from Jehovah!

            • The Raven

              Thanks Kevin. It puts things into perspective. Those were some very interesting times and those people were bold. They challenged convention at its core and the foundations for control were set in those days. The financial, governmental and religious institutions combined made life precarious. Those who stood against them had to be up for the challenge, warts and all.

            • Richard Long

              Ok, but you know Kevin’s getting ready to fill your library card right now! lol. There is plenty of room for your opinion.?

            • The Raven

              LOL! Oh yeah! He’s done that to me numerous times and I’m grateful for it! Saved me a lot of time and effort!

            • Burt Reynolds

              You would have your work cut out apologising for Rutherford. I think if one good thing came out of franz’s book, it was his term ‘victim of victims’. I’m getting a lot more insight into these things by looking for the causal root of these events, rather than the people used to bring them about. ( I know that’s a contradiction in terms, but it’s not. And so is that!. Just apply the Spirit behind the cause!)

            • Anderiega

              Yep….just finished reading the book of Genesis in a couple of days….helped me see how DISFUNCTIONAL Abraham’s family was, yet Jehovah kept making covenants with them. Bottom line….we (humans) don’t know which annointed are actually going to see their invitation to it’s completion and who’ll be gnashing their teeth. Not my monkey, not my circus! Life is good. ?

            • Richard Long

              lol. KEN knows!

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! Yes indeed!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Great! We need all the helpful examples we can get. Who is the lion tamer!

          • Burt Reynolds

            That’s a point, because the watchtower was ‘selected’ by Jehovah to do his work and presumably bears the same weight of responsibility. Deep thinking!

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      I heard Bro. Franz give talks in Dodgers stadium. Two things Br. Franz and Br.Rutherford had in common, they had a special hatred for false religion. They had a zeal for the truth and they were human .Looking at the past and being mad at them for it is like beating a dead horse.. Right now I’m worried about the ones now still caught up in the great hoax Satan has so cleverly nurtured..

      • Daisy

        “Looking at the past and being mad at them for it is like beating a dead horse”! Lol.

        Sister…The whole world is looking at the past of the Wto through the World Wide Web and aren’t their printed words boomeranging to expose and haunt them.

        Brs Rutherford and Franz may very well have had a hatred, you say, for false religion, but…that didn’t stop them from living the lives of luxury , similar to the leaders of false religion, albeit by the behest of voluntary donations.

        And as for being ” worried about the ones caught up in the hoax Satan has cleverly nurtured”; without wanting to sound I’m patronising or anything, I would just like to say that ALL religions are under the same ruler of this world and not to worry one jot because Jehovah our God, and our King and Saviour will sort out those with the right HEART condition and bless them for their righteousness towards Them.

        • Burt Reynolds

          ‘And they shall be knocked off their feet by the Boomerang of Truth.’ (Book of Burt. Letter to the Dead Horseians. Ch 5 v 16).

        • J.M.J.

          I have said to witnesses in the past about the 1914 -1975 false prophesies .They have replied that the 1975 did not come from the WBTS .I have said that today with sites like youtube you can actually hear circuit overseers speaking at conventions about it and naming dates . NO ANSWER.

          • KB

            The Watchtower can’t rewrite history, nor can they lie about what has been put in print over the years.

            Watchtower 1968 August 15 p.499 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?

            30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.

            • J.M.J.

              When on earth Jesus did not say to work out the times and dates .Just the same as Daniel did not work out when the fall of Jerusalem was ,so as to work out the period of captivity . These things belong to JEHOVAH. Jesus said to keep watch for signs .By working out dates it is just as bad as eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge .

            • Burt Reynolds

              I can see the point in that. We are told to look for signs of the times we live in and that is our only guide because no one but Jehovah knows the day or the hour. I find the chronology helpful to gain a supporting insight into the signs, and I’m grateful to those that persue it, but days and hours, years and weeks…I have neither the insight or the calculator, or the brain to use them!

            • Richard Long

              Might it be the chronology is really only useful for proving the fulfillment of prophecy after the fact?

            • Richard Long

              A very astute point!

            • Richard Long

              But they have certainly attempted to do both, rewrite history and lie about what they have printed, as you so devastatingly have proven. My (personal) quandary is not whether my rage at the WT is justified, but whether it is is productive. By remaining incensed at the leading men, do I help or harm myself? My (personal) conclusion is that ultimately, I harm myself. Severely.

              I cite Robert’s example as one I should very much like to emulate. He can in no way be said to be even in the slightest “letting them off the hook”, but his appreciation for Jehovah’s wondrous and mysterious works allow him to give due consideration for the highly imperfect “tools” used.

              It might rightly be said that the singular foremost “challenge” Jehovah faces in the outworking of his purposes for the salvation and restoration of mankind to the condition of Adam is his determination to use humans in the accomplishment of it! Don’t we all just make a muck of everything good?

            • Burt Reynolds

              You’re right about the damage boiling anger can do. All those wasted years….or were they? Would you or I be able to see the difference between the lie and the truth so clearly? You’ve been like an unstoppable train since getting off at this station! So some good came out of it. And if you weren’t being a JW all those years, you would only have being doing something else…..maybe a happy clapper…..a Pentecostal…..a Mormon……!! It’s horrid that we have been lied to, but we have not been decieved thoroughly! And what’s more, we have been rewarded beforehand! What a gift the truth is. The glass is half full!

            • The Raven

              I am hoping to be considered worthy of getting a beating from Jehovah. That’s the least I dare pray for. The truth right now? Priceless.

            • Burt Reynolds

              We used to get regular beatings at school with a split cane. There was no way you could win against the system. I ran away once and made a home run of 150 miles on just 25 cents at the time. My mother took me back the next day and I got beaten for running away from the beatings….or beaten for coming back. I forget which. Anyway, the point being is that I hope Jehovah uses a sneaker rather than a split cane.

            • The Raven

              We caught it with yardsticks and rulers. 25 cents got you that far? You did better than me. I had to jump the turnstile and race the cops to a train. I faced the same wrath from my father who used a belt, even though he hated the Catholic church. School was school to him. They had no idea what kind of education I was actually getting from them.
              I hope Jehovah isn’t too harsh on us but the sinner that I am will gladly accept it.

            • The Raven

              Why did he permit the false prophecy to go out? Could it have been to gather as many as possible to spread the word at the time? Was that the hook? Something they would see in their lifetimes? They all thought they would go to heaven and jumped on that bandwagon. If so, it certainly worked. Then they realized not all would but they might never die and that worked too. That misleading influence was still at work until recent years as people continued to join. Now that the time has passed for the 1914 crowd to be long gone membership has dwindled and the witnesses have even begun trying to baptize children to fill in numbers. The fact that it filled the ranks with “blind and deaf servants” to announce God’s kingdom is evidence for the lie to have been allowed to get to a point where the good news was preached world wide. It appears now that this phase is almost over and those remaining are not as effective as once before. In light of what Russia has done we may soon see this all start going in reverse. The lie, seems to have served its purpose. There is another preaching campaign yet future. These final witnesses are drawn from those who already have the basics many of which also joined because they accepted on faith and the prospect of seeing this done soon and are declared righteous by God. The anointed. Only then will the revelation be fully understood.
              My thoughts on this.

            • Richard Long

              A perfectly reasonable position. IMO

            • The Raven

              Those in Christ’s day and even his followers thought the kingdom would appear in their lifetimes. They even thought as John passed it could happen then. They believed it was imminent. They did not understand fully. The witnesses thought the same and they were led to think this by their leaders who quickly filled the ranks needed for this work. They came to the wrong conclusion about the appointed times of the nations but the work proceeded. The time has come for that to end and the true test of faith will be revealed when the master returns. I tend to agree with Robert that the false parousia and the dates given will be shattered once war breaks out. They will then have to abandon their guide and stand on their faith alone apart from them.

            • Richard Long

              Have to agree completely.

            • KB

              Very true. Raven made some really good points. It doesn’t really do any good to get angry or mad at Jehovah over this delusion that he ultimately is allowing. Through a deep study of the scriptures and a knowing where to look online the real truth is available to all who search for it. Did we just stumble on this information, or did Jehovah lead us here? What are we gonna do with this information in the future when the time comes to share it with Jehovahs abandoned and lost sheep? Interesting times ahead for sure.

            • The Raven

              KB you added a good perspective to this and thank you. I agree. Why are we finding this and others aren’t? Maybe it does boil down to being willing and recognizing we don’t have all the answers but are more inclined to trust Him more than we do ourselves. We search for truth and for Him and are drawn to those who can reason like Robert with folks who are once bitten, twice shy.

            • Richard Long

              It would appear that salvation and pursuit of a perfected faith being very personal and individualized endeavors that we all undertake in common allows for a vast array of experiences and perspectives. It is the WT, is it not, rather than Jehovah directly, that has produced the effect of groupthink, groupfeel, groupspeak, etc that we decry? And yet, as the three of you (KB, Raven, Burt) point out, that is the bus that brought so many of us here to this point. I’m trying to understand what I am looking at and have come to the realization it is not necessary to vilify the Org or the leading men, past or present. They may, in fact, be villains, but far better, IMO, to ignore the counterfeit authority than to expend energy in reforming or destroying it. Jehovah has already promised that will be done without my involvement, has he not?

            • The Raven

              This entire site was built by Robert King to expose the falsehoods, mistakes etc of prophecy and even criminal activity concerning the dirty dealings with pedophiles but more importantly, to reveal the truth. That’s one of the main reasons I stayed. I certainly could have stayed at countless sites that exposed the WTO for its bad but they are nothing more than a bitch fest and a vacuum chamber. Not here. Here I get a good amount of understanding and explanation as well as a reasonable view of scripture and how we got where we are. Yes, Richard that was one of the biggest busses that brought folks to the truth. You’re right. I am like everyone else here. Where do we go from here and what happens next? How do we fit in and what must we do and what can we do? All excellent questions.

            • Richard Long

              Would love to see your thoughts on the ideas put forward on this forum thread:

              https://e-watchman.com/topic/why-jehovahs-witnesses/#post-39775

            • The Raven

              You know how I love a mosh pit! LOL! But one at a time! For the sake of brevity I’ll let this be an example of what I think about the biggest part of that matter. Read the whole thing. You may be surprised:

              https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

            • Richard Long

              I’m not surprised at all. I believe I’m watching two invited participate in a seemingly irreconcilable difference of opinion that I’m nowhere near spiritually or emotionally prepared to deal with. I also sense these two invited do not actually differ in opinion but, rather, one has been given a specific message to deliver to a specific audience in consideration of that specific audiences’ “handicap” and with instructions to stick to that message and refrain from going beyond it’s boundaries; I sense the other both understands and respects this. And I’m so freaking blown away by what I think I’m seeing that I do not trust my sense of anything! I just really gotta leave this alone for a while!

            • The Raven

              I try to keep it simple based on what my experiences have been . Since I was never part of the organization or believed the delusion I don’t really have an axe to grind here. So whatever disagreement there exists is not really my concern.

            • Richard Long

              That’s kind of the point… The ORG conditioning makes the scene I described a really BIG DEAL, but in actuality it is not. That I can recognize it’s inconsequential nature is PROGRESS, man!

            • The Raven

              Copy that!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have just read that at your suggestion. It’s a confusing in a way, but so true. The people for his name have not been sifted out….I’m not sure if they are the pebbles or the fine sand that sifts through…regardless, the illustration is clear. So it is Jehovah’s organisation, but it is not the representitve of his name as yet, because of the evil within. It will be when these righteous ones come out, and they may well have the real name of Jehovah to use! That’s what I mean about this site. It has the ring of truth. Clarity. Straightforward.

            • KB

              I’m not willing to let the GB off the hook, they certainly are villains IMO. Yet, we realize Jehovah is allowing this to take place. The GB will be held accountable for the hardships and the control they have over the JWs. As raven just said in a comment where do we go from here? Well, some can’t associate themselves any longer with the organization by attending meetings anymore. Many on this forum feel this way and I can’t find fault with their reasoning. It’s not easy being around the witnesses at times. Some attend the meetings and can deal with it. We each have to find out where we fall in this mess of things. What works best for us and our family’s and stick with it. There are a lot of anti JW website out there that we could get caught up in. Bottom line is, is that they will destroy your relationship with Jehovah. They are correct In many areas and thoughts. They highlight that the JW organization has a lot of faults, and that they are a cult and that they destroy families. But they are missing one huge factor, Jehovah is allowing this to take place. We each need to prove our faithfulness to Jehovah in the future. These anti JWs (apostates) may have a hard time doing this in the future. In the meantime we need to encourage each other as we all do by bouncing ideas and thoughts off each other here.

            • The Raven

              That’s true. Whoever goes off into destruction goes off. Robert hasn’t let them off the hook either. Obviously. But I can’t tell folks what to do who are still attending nor can I tell them to quit. The hatred among ex witnesses for their brothers is palpable and Robert considers them enemies. They do nothing but tear down and you can also get a good feel for the warnings he made about those who will be happy to assist in betraying you. They are already causing folks to lose their faith in Jehovah and even doubt there is a God at all. That’s significant damage. We can’t allow their anger and hatred to dissuade us from our faith.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Absolutely!

            • J.M.J.

              Jesus while on earth allowed his disciples to have an operation of error .He said they would be scattered .It was all to allow their faith ,Love ,Obedience and patience to be put to the test . This present operation of error going forth will do the same . We may see through some of the errors ,but we will all be expected to show our faith ,love patience and obedience in the coming days .
              Talking of which where are D.A. Sports, its in the game ,Song of Hannah and Basavaraj Of North Karnataka ? I have not read any comments from them for a day or two .We all need each other .

            • Richard Long

              DA had Disqus account trouble, is posting as Dr Moreau.

            • The Raven

              Looks like I’m not the only one seeing partial discussions here. Lag for me is real bad today. I know…I know. We love disqus!

            • Prodigal One

              I’ve had trouble posting up to now. This is just an attempt to test and see if I get blocked as Spam again. (Is it if your posting is too long? Is there a word limit?)

            • Richard Long

              The Disqus apparatus may be the one entity on earth more arbitrary and contrary than the WTS! lol

            • The Raven

              Stubborn and slow mule with an attitude is a good way to describe the thing. It eats comments and spits back pieces, if any. 🙁

            • The Raven

              The length may be an issue as I’ve seen several posts go into moderation and then disappear. Robert did not know about them. He tried to fix the issue and darned if disqus just lost them altogether. It’s maddening. I saw your post and went to refresh and… gone. I don’t know about a word limit, but it’s a good possibility.

            • Richard Long

              Bye the way, in all honesty most of what we all said here on your first day posting (my words as much as anyone’s) might be better placed on the forum. This is essentially commentary on Robert’s blog essays. WE ALL abuse this particular space badly, so… no blood, no foul until Robert calls it, I guess. You might have more success with the disqus apparatus there, as I’m pretty certain length is not a factor. I repeat, I thought your post was worth reading.

            • The Raven

              Hi JMJ. Look through the rest of the discussion and check out the comments. I agree. This goes back to the deluding influence and I also discussed the apostles not understanding fully even as Christ was among them what was happening as they expected the arrival of the kingdom at any moment. The article above Robert wrote also acknowledges several of these points about the matter.

            • Daisy d

              DA is here, but having problems with Disqus …he posted under the fabulous name Dr Moreau yesterday!
              Song is singing on the Forum and B of N K is writing his own thoughts with the help of holy spirit. ..
              I can still picture it in my mind…
              The faith, love, obedience that was manifested , for the whole world to witness. Those Coptic Christians, all dressed alike in orange (Guantanamo) kneeling by the seashore with knives at their throats waiting for their cowardly hooded captors to murder them. Do you remember, there were about 20 beautiful young Christian men who didn’t break rank, didn’t falter one iota from proving their love. Each and every one of them stayed faithful and obedient till their shocking end.
              What was going through their minds we can only imagine, perhaps the Lord’s prayer, maybe Psalm 23.
              But , whatever they were thinking, they weren’t thinking of a channel of communication and a GB back in their opulent abodes in the u.s.a with their command upon command, do this, do that, a little here a little there. Don’t even think for yourself.
              Those men’s hearts were focused on showing how much Jesus’ sacrifice meant to them and they, as INDIVIDUALS proved it by dying bravely for their love of Christ’s redeeming power.
              Love from Daisy 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Well, Daisy, I once spilled coffee on my best suit while accosting early morning shoppers in front of Von’s. How do I measure up? lol

            • Daisy d

              You’re a lovely sweet heart …nearly as sweet as my sweetie JS and just as sweet as all the men here, well, apart from Burt, but you worry too too much, and that’s my worry. Stoppit! Hah. 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              ‘And it came to pass that in the last days, Burt was not found sweet in the eyes of Daisy, and great was his wailing and gnashing of teeth, and he did take himself off and went into the land of Cornwall and dwelt amongst the sheep herders and tourists on their yearly sojourn from Birmingham and Walsall.’ (Book of Burt. Letter to the Reject-Onians. Ch.3 V.21)?

            • Daisy d

              Yes, we do all make a muck of everything good! I burnt dinner tonight because I had my nose in the Good Book, and as it happened, later, your last paragraph grabbed my attention when you say…”that the singular foremost challenge Jehovah faces in the outworking of His purpose s for the salvation and restoration of mankind to the condition of Adam is His determination to use humans in the accomplishment of it”.

              Paul says that Salvation is found in no one else (The Son) for there is no other name under heaven given to MANKIND by which we must be saved. Acts 4.

              And Paul’s letter to the Roman congregation says; “since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved (underlined) from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved (underlined)through his life! CH.5

              The Good Book doesn’t seem to be mentioning “highly imperfect tools” being involved ” in the outworking of God’s purposes” to me. The “leading men” and I generalise, are going down hook link and sinker, because… They Show No Respect whatsoever for the Son of Gods sacrificial death; by barely mentioning him during the latest convention, for example: and by allowing the art department to project devilish subliminal images onto his body in so many illustrations. So, is there really any reason to feel that you harm yourself severely by “rage” and feeling “insenced ” regarding the WTO. Its hardly worth agonising over imo.
              With love, ;D

            • Richard Long

              There may be some understanding of my personal perspectives, however narrow or lacking in detail as they may be in the forum interchange between Nigel an myself, which I know you have seen at least his original posting. I was digging a foundation of faith when my association with the WT began, and that one shown to be a false start, or at least mishandled, here I am starting all over again with the digging a new foundation. I think we can all agree this is the, or one of the, right places to be doing that. I, probably much more than many, need the wide variability in perspectives expressed as we chew on and compare/ contrast how Robert’s essays impress themselves upon us individually. Admittedly, my inclination was previously to seek a “packaged” salvation to conform to, and what we do here is, for me personally, both terrifying and thrilling, both uncomfortable and soothing, simultaneously. Really, we all just have to get over ourselves, it just took me 50 years to do it. lol. I wholeheartedly endorse Raven’s sentiment of only aspiring to qualify for a good beating from Jehovah, and yours that the rest is hardly worth getting worked up over.

            • The Raven

              Quote Richard:
              “Really, we all just have to get over ourselves, it just took me 50 years to do it. lol. I wholeheartedly endorse Raven’s sentiment of only aspiring to qualify for a good beating from Jehovah, and yours that the rest is hardly worth getting worked up over.”

              Hahaha! That made my day, man!
              I think, the errors, willful or not of the past are one thing and I agree with Robert that there is more to it. They are long gone. But the “hook” so effective in the beginning while things were in flux is now a millstone around their necks. They have continued to add in weight until they will drown with it. Since they have been directly confronted by some of their own elders, overseers and even chosen this has gone well beyond any possible excuse or explanation other than their own idol, empire and assets. Robert has been at the forefront of that exposure. The time is high and we are all watching as are the angels who peer into these matters to understand and hope we can stand in the end. I’m glad many here are also doing this.

            • Thinking

              Your so right brother Richard….to STAY angry certainly will harm all of us …because we will be doing just what Satan wants…and that’s leave his house and not come back…
              We can have righteous anger…it’s justified…but it can also make us sin and fall away,,.because it becomes our ruler…Satan is very very clever …
              As Jesus warned his followers many years agao….Do as they say not as they do….:)

            • Richard Long

              In continuation of our previous discussions…
              Currently, I’m feeling less inclination or need to return than previously, but still very much leaving the door open and actively seeking Jehovah in the matter due, in large part, to your example and encouragement, so know that you are an influence. 🙂

            • Thinking

              Aaaah brother..you will be like a pendulum..you will go too and fro about going back….may I ask you a question?. Yes…..well I will anyway..hah
              But if you were in the wilderness with the Israelites ..and you seen the likes of Korah…and Miriam’s rebellion and resulting discipline…and seen the gold calf built under Aaron’s direction…..and all the disobedience and lack of appreciation for Moses…
              How would you feel….What would you do….where would you go… ?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think if I was walking about in a desert for 40 years and I saw the golden calf go up, especially having had the faith to be delivered out of Egypt, the parting of the sea, the pillars of cloud and flame et al, and the hand of Jehovah in deliverance from pharaoh, I would have done a Captain Oates. ‘I am just going outside and may be some time…’, walked into the desert and made my peace with Jehovah. What would you do?

            • Thinking

              I like to think I would have stood with The likes’of Kaleb and Joshua and their families and just waited for Moses to come down from the mountain…..cause I’m preety sure if Jehovah provided the flame of fire at night and the cloud during the day..and after witnessing Pharohs death and even the miracle,of the ten plagues….im preety sure I would have reasoned …that Moses would not have let us down…and now way would Jehovah let us down…and most of the Israelites didn’t join in the false worship ..but I think I,would have been preety confused over Arron’s involvement…it would have shaken me a lot I think….I also,would have been really really scared….
              I don’t know who captain Oates is?….

            • Burt Reynolds

              Captain Oates was with Robert Scott who was racing Amundsen to the South Pole in 1912. On the way back, after loosing the race, they ran out of supplies and the whole team perished about 12 miles from their return food dump. Captain Oates was suffering from severe frostbite and was slowing the group down, so realising they would fail if he continued, with great English aplomb, he got up after their evening meal, and with graceful English understatement said, ‘ I am just going out for a while, and maybe some time…’ Meaning he was going to sacrifice his life so that the others would have a chance. They would have understood what he meant. I meant in my comment, simply that having seen the return to idolatry, I too would have given up and would have gone to seek Jehovah elsewhere. The Jews are not called a ‘stiff necked people’ for nothing.

            • Richard Long

              And I think we have evidence that some, perhaps many, of Jehovah’s true friends, servants, prophets, etc. did not dwell in “mainstreet” Israel. Certainly, they were not part or the administrative/religious structure, as they had to be “sent for” by so-and-so, or “sent by” Jehovah to king so-and-so. They never seemed to be kings or priests. Maybe their consciences dictated they only suffer the company of their crazy neighbors when commanded to by God. Might be that would have been you then?

            • Burt Reynolds

              It would be a nice job. Judge-n-Go.

            • Thinking

              I made a reply and it disappeared into cyber space..lol….you will be like a pendulum brother as to going back or not….too and fro you will go…it’s still early days for you…may I ask you a question…yes?…..well too bad I am anyway..haha.
              if you were walking in the wilderness with the Israelites ..and you seen the behavior of Korah..and Miriam’s rebellious attitude…and all the moaning and groaning against Moses…also Aaron’s building of the golden calf
              How would you feel…..what would you do….but more importantly ..where would you go ……..

            • Richard Long

              Oh, that wasn’t rhetorical? Doh! Your point is taken. For my mind on the matter, not that I have made up my mind, see the forum thread:
              https://e-watchman.com/topic/why-jehovahs-witnesses/#post-39775

          • Richard Long

            THAT has got to be frustrating!

      • Burt Reynolds

        That’s true in many respects, that it is like flogging a dead horse, but it is difficult to grasp the meaning of the present, without explaining the past…..as with the bible; as with evolution, truth and lie alike!

  • Sharon

    so the question above,are they false prophets?.YES THEY ARE! not just stupid,they are indeed false prophets,we must stop making excuses for this religion,or should I say cult,which is part of Babylon the great.That is why Jehovah says come out of her my people.

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Are Jehovah’s Witnesses part of a cult?. Read more>
      https://e-watchman.com/are-jehovahs-witnesses-part-of-a-cult/

      Read a lot more>
      https://e-watchman.com/?s=cult%2C

    • Thinking

      I don’t beleive the society claims to be a phropjet at this period of time…they did once tho…but just let’s put that aside for a moment..if you can…

      If we have a prophet like presence amongst us today..it is the Bible…the scriptures..
      Many times in the past Jehovah would cry out to his people and say..
      I sent you prophets..kings..judges. Yet you didn’t listen to any of them

      Jeremiah 7:24
      But they did not listen or pay attention instead they followed the stubborn inclination of their evil hearts they went backward and not forward from the time your ancestors left Egypt until now ..day after day again and again I sent you my servants and prophets but they did not listen to me or pay attention They were stiff necked and did more evil than their ancestors.

      No we dont have a prophet amongst us today but we have his word which is so much better…in that word he has warned us again and again and again just how bad his people would become in the last days…
      He clearly and constantly warns us what to expect…just like the prophets warned his own people in ancient times….we too have been warned…

      Amos 3.
      Listen to this Israel God is calling you to account and I mean ALL of you everyone connected with the family that he delivered out of Egypt ..LISTEN
      out of all the families on the earth I picked YOU….therefore because of your special calling
      I’m holding you responsible for all your sins ..

      So why should we be so surprised …we have well and truly be warned…

      So indeed I ask you and those that think like you…are you yourself not listening to his very words and warnings…

      He has told all of us he will judge his own house first.

      …1Peter 3:17
      For it is the appointed time for the judgement to start with the house of God.

      Do we expect an easy ride exsisting in that house….no!!! Definetly not..
      BUT
      AMOS 9-10..
      I’m still giving the orders around here,( after he has just gone into detail about how bad his house/people are ) …Im throwing Israel into a sieve among all the nations and shaking them good ..shaking out all the sin..all the sinners No real grain ( the wheat) will be lost but all the sinners will be sifted out and thrown away. The people who say. nothing bad will ever happen in our lifetime ..it won’t even come close…

      Ezekial 9 gives the life saving mark to those within the city….not to those running out..
      AMOS 7-0 talks about the Master hanging a plumb line IN THE MIDST OF HIS PEOPLE..

      A little hint is also given when Jesus was ressurected and appeared to his apostles…and they so badly wanted to know when he would return…look at what he said to them…
      ACTS 1:4
      And while he was meeting with them he gave them the orders…DO NOT WITHDRAW FROM JERUSELUM…but keep waiting for what the father has promised about which you heard from me…

      Sharon with the greatest respect to you…you tell others to leave of from the Jehovah’s witnesses…because of their sin and error….
      Yet Jehovah will just say to you..
      ..so what..didn’t I warn you…do you think you are stating something I did not already tell you…..
      Are you not yourself going backward instead of forward…

      It’s hard but this was all foretold and for now we must follow the instructions given in Revelations

      REV 14:12
      This calls for patient endurance on the part OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD who keeps his commands and remain faithful…

      He has yet to return…and yes it is so very very hard …but we must not tire out..and never leave his house if that is at all possible and in our emotional and physical strength to stay amongst his people..
      UNTIL
      2 Thess…..(we are waiting for this.) ..

    • Burt Reynolds

      The command to come out of her is correct, but this is not said of the watchtower because it is a cult, but so as not to share in her sins. If the watchtower were a cult, one assumes it would be part of Christendom, but that is not so. The watchtower has taken to itself the name of Jehovah and has preached, quite correctly in many areas, the essence of the truth that Christ said would be preached in all the inhabited earth. As with the temple arrangement in 70ad and in babalonian times, the temples were destroyed due to the scriptural perversions that we’re going on within them and that discredited Jehovah. Babylonian religion was not destroyed at that time. The Israelites had turned away from their purpose. Robert wrote a good article on it recently…someone will show you where. I don’t think anyone here is excusing the watchtower’s crimes, simply explaining their relevance to the coming judgement on it by Jehovah. There has to be a reason for that judgement, does their not? This is because the watchtower makes the claim of representing Jehovah, over and above and in contradiction of their given role. As you note, Jehovah is not telling people to get out of Christendom ( and who one might assume, are far, far worse than the witnesses in ignoring Jehovah’s word.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Burt Excellent point when you said “the temples were destroyed due to the scriptural perversions that we’re going on within them and that discredited Jehovah. Babylonian religion was not destroyed at that time.

      • Sharon

        sorry I do not agree with you burt,look up the word cult,and it not only describes them to a tee,it should have the name Jehovahs witnesses beside it. The things going on in this organization are appauling. If I could think of a worse word I would. false prophecies,flip flooping on doctrines,subliminal messages,and lies,outright lies on jwbroadcast,a complete lack of love among the brothers and sisters,the convention going on right now don’t give up speaking about endurance,the greatest examples of endurance,and guess what our king of kings,and lord of lords Jesus Christ,never made the list,how sad is that.To me what I see they are pushing Christ further and further in the background,and you and I both know that cannot possibly have Jehovahs approval.Let us not forget the pedophilia that is rampant due to the two witness rule,and last but certainly no where near complete on the list is Jehovahs people today are in love with seven men,an organization,certainly not Jehovah and his son.I love Jehovah and his son but have lost my love for the organization.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Everything you say is true. I feel very saddened about the path the watchtower has taken, yet had I not been a witness, I would not be able to see those very things that I now know to be true – what the kingdom is and that it will come, and which are falsities surrounding that teaching. I feel sometimes that I had to be blind to the evils and lies within in the watchtower so that I could see the truth of what I know now. Much the same way that you can compare products on eBay simply by pressing the compare button! To ‘retired’ witnesses, I don’t suppose it matters what one calls it nowadays. Cult is rather bland compared to the vociferous retorts I hear sometimes, and what those poor abused people think of it, who can blame them for their terminology? However, calling it what one will, does not change the fact that they assume upon the name of Jehovah, or that they have performed a job of work prophesied in the bible, and effectively at that. And yes, you are right that many, (not all), ‘love’ the governing body, but not for what they are, but for whom they think, they speak for. Jehovah.

          Why is that point important? Because that is their test. When the chips are down, who are you going to believe in? Who are you going to trust? As pointed out on this site many times, Jehovah is hardly bothered with those in Christendom, because they will be swept away because Christ ‘ never knew’ them, without even knowing what the promise is. But to those that do, and have misrepresented it, knowing the truth, and lied, knowing the truth, and all the other things you mention, they will come to know exactly what they have put their trust in….men….whom they loved as rulers rather than Jehovah. Now if they were part of a cult and thus of Christendom who have ‘never been known’ by Christ, from where will the vindication of Jehovah’s name come in the eyes of the nations? And not only that, but by what shall those that call upon the name of Jehovah, know the difference and what choice to make? You have to be in it, to know it, to know what choice to make. That is essentially the reason why it is not a cult, but certainly, as you point out, seems to be. Believing this, will make many many people not even look into it to see what you and I and all of us have come to know. A clever deception by Satan. That is not to say though that many right hearted people will see the kingdom without ever having known the witnesses, but will understand the very Word that they have been preaching.
          One cannot get away from the witness of Jehovah. It’s an oblique point in the great scheme of things, but it actually brings more condemnation upon the governing men at the time, than it would if it were just a cult. We may even be lessening its guilt were we to call it so…..if that’s possible!

        • black curtain

          Well said Sharon. Here is an organisation hiding 24000 cases of pedophilia and will not release it to authorities to prosecute these criminals. And people are saying it is God’s Organisation. If it belongs to him then what they do MUST be condoned by him. We know that Jehovah does not condone this and therefore The ORG is not his. We stand before him and his sovereign representative Christ who will judge on behalf of his father, as individuals. But most of all we shall just have to wait and see.

          • Thinking

            You two musnt read your bibles…this was all foretold as to what would happen with in his house…..if these things didn’t happen then we wouldn’t fit the bill…

          • Thinking

            You two are as blind as the ones you are pointing your fingers at….all those errors and sins you pointed out was fortold to be going on in his house at the time of the end…..so we fit the bill….

          • Richard Long

            Hi again BC,
            Leaving aside the ongoing discussion and disagreement between some of you highly respected brothers and Robert on the modern day people of Jehovah’s personal possession, how should we understand all the evil done by the Israelites when “His”? Was this something like a condition of them being in the process of making themselves “not His” by engaging in behavior He could not condone? Is this like the act of adultery “ending” a marriage some time, even a long time, before discovery/confession and subsequent divorce even more time later?

            • black curtain

              Hi Richard, thanks for the reply. I didn’t actually want to enter a
              debate on this matter just offer some support to Sharon. I had this
              discussion with Burt sometime back. I asked him or anyone else to show
              me at least some tiny scintilla of scriptural support for the “claim”
              that they are God’s org because they called themselves JW’s. Something
              watertight, concrete. An example here for instance;

              (Exodus
              19:3-10) 3 And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to
              call to him out of the mountain, saying: “This is what you are to say to
              the house of Jacob and to tell the sons of Israel, 4 ‘YOU yourselves
              have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings
              of eagles and bring YOU to myself. 5 And now if YOU will strictly obey
              my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly
              become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole
              earth belongs to me. 6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom
              of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say
              to the sons of Israel.” 7 So Moses came and called the older men of the
              people and set before them all these words that Jehovah had commanded
              him. 8 After that all the people answered unanimously and said: “All
              that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do.” Immediately Moses took
              back the words of the people to Jehovah.

              Any Org calling itself this name or that does not constitute approval by God such that it belongs to him.
              I
              have readily agreed that Jehovah will use an Org, or even a nation, or
              even a rogue Mesopotamian lad ( modern Iraq) called Balaam. Using them
              does not constitute owning or being in a relationship. There are other
              evangelical groups in the southern United States that have Jehovah
              included in their name, does that mean they are God’s org too?
              The
              Popes claim that they are the Vicar of Christ that the Catholic Church
              is Gods org here on earth, I would wager that you don’t accept that for a
              minute, neither do I.
              I also checked out the word “witnesses” in the NWT. Nowhere is the term “Jehovah’s Witnesses” used. Here are the Vss
              Mt 18;16, 26.60, 26.65
              Mr 14.63
              Lu 11;48, 24;48
              Ac 1;8,2;32, 3;15,5.32,6;13, 7;58, 10;39,10;41, 13;31,
              1Cor 15;15
              2Cor 13;1
              1Th 2.10
              1Ti 5,19, 6;12
              2Ti 2;2
              Heb 12;1
              Rev 11;3, 17;6
              One would think that for something that a lot of people put so much store in, there would be some support for it by Jehovah.
              Just as a finish consider these questions; do the words preachers and witnesses mean the same thing?
              What do you think of when you normally hear the word witness, where is it most commonly used?
              The
              phrase is taken from Isa 43;10 YOU are my witnesses says Jehovah.
              Witnesses to what and for whom? If you were a witness for Jehovah where
              would you be if you had to give testimony under oath for Jehovah.
              Is
              Isa 43.10 worth a rethink as to whom it applies to and where it would be
              given, (hint, where is Jehovah) since the WT has got so much wrong,
              just reread Robert’s book for proof of that. I wont add more
              cheers bc

            • Richard Long

              Thanks and sorry to put you on the spot. OK, actually I’m not sorry for that because I NEED your perspective and I WILL have it! lol GIVE IT TO ME! lol

              It is very reasonable to conclude that the taking of the name Jehovah’s Witnesses is just that – a taking – rather than a receiving. I think we many prove true Rutherford’s accusation that “religion is a racket and a snare”, an irony if ever one existed, no? It is apparent to me that even as He was establishing the temple arrangement for his covenanted people, Jehovah was likely sighing and calculating something like ‘let’s see…just how ridiculous do I need to make this in order to keep their minds appropriately focused on the now in context with the future while making them realize this is the way my adversary controls people, and I do not need or want it?’

              The cognitive conflict for me remains perceiving ALL religion to be constructs designed by God’s enemy to dilute the personal bond between Jehovah and his children AND AT THE SAME TIME seeing with my own eyes the near perfect overlay of the JW religion onto the prophets as treated by Robert King. I don’t need to be told the “problem” is between my ears, as you have already helped me to see this. My need is to function under the conditions of a seemingly unresolvable conflict, which requires the more perfect faith I am pursuing but do not yet possess.

            • black curtain

              Thank you Richard, great response, tread carefully when it comes to religion there is only one solid truth existing in the world at the moment and that is what the Bible has to say. The prophecies are a very kind courtesy by our wonderful creator but the basics are what we need on a day to day basis to develop a good conscience and a mind (heart) like our exemplar Christ. There are two major things we need to worry about that Christ said, love Jehovah and love your fellow man as yourself, the rest is academic.I think you understand both very well and I always like to think over what you say
              my very kindest, bc

            • Richard Long

              If I might press a little further? Can you help us/me frame up a more balanced view of how one might observe the interaction between the invited. Obviously, you are acquainted intimatly with the “mental regulation” all JW’s submit themselves to at the KH or within the ORG controlled by the “FDS” at large, where the invited, true or otherwise, are marginalized. Having never been in proximity to more than one at a time with any kind of freedom or ingress to make any serious personalized query, I can only guess at what a conversation between the two would consist of or look like to the interested onlooker. I believe I see it happening on this site between certain parties and our host, but of course, am mindful that satisfaction of my own curiosity or personal longing for understanding MUST NOT be allowed to induce me to infringe upon the privacy or patience of others.

              WT life has conditioned us to expect that the invited be known to us openly and that all are in complete union of spirit and thought, but I have come to think that is WT overreach. Certainly, the scriptures give examples of disagreements, even bitter ones, none of which resulted in the spiritual bloodletting of disfellowshiping.

              I might more rightly ask, as one not professing invitation, what might a balanced, godly view of such disagreements look like? It seems that we (JW’s) as a “people” place more emphasis on these… To be continued

            • black curtain

              Richard you seem to have sent me a request to describe relationships between the FDS and others of that persuasion. I wont answer it at length until I see the original on here, but anointed don’t always get along. Ted Jarascz and LLoyd Barry, were in charge of Depts at the HQ in NY and they sniped at each other in articles in the publications and their relations were frosty. To the average rank and file they would never have noticed the game of tit for tat but it was there. Rutherford resented Russell because Russell had panache and charisma. then there was this one:-

              (Acts 15:36-41) 36 Now after some days Paul said to Bar′na‧bas: “Above all things, let us return and visit the brothers in every one of the cities in which we published the word of Jehovah to see how they are.” 37 For his part, Bar′na‧bas was determined to take along also John, who was called Mark. 38 But Paul did not think it proper to be taking this one along with them, seeing that he had departed from them from Pam‧phyl′i‧a and had not gone with them to the work. 39 At this there occurred a sharp burst of anger, so that they separated from each other; and Bar′na‧bas took Mark along and sailed away to Cy′prus. 40 Paul selected Silas and went off after he had been entrusted by the brothers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah. 41 But he went through Syria and Ci‧li′cia, strengthening the congregations.

              You can read the context for yourself, but it seems that John Mark, who was a cousin of Barnabas wanted to have a go once more at missionary work with Paul and Barnabas. John Mark was sort of christian royalty, that is, he had all the right family background, pedigrees were just perfect, but he was a bit of a woosy kid, who, in vernacular, was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Things got a little tough on his first night in a tent on missionary service and, perhaps because mother was no longer there to bring him breakfast in bed spat the dummy and went home to his mother. Strike one. But we all have to grow up and mature and he had matured. But Paul had a long memory as you have just read. So here it was, two of the leading missionaries had a monster spat. Proving once more imperfect life aint over till it is over.

              Being a JW is like being in a shopping mall, you are all there for a common purpose in a building. Most of them would rub you up the wrong way outside that building and so you form a few friendships that last but the majority are just acquaintances. No worries, that’s life. Same for the anointed. The cloistered rarified air of Bethel distorts relationships. Many have returned from there a little broken.
              Just a little personal experience I was friends with an anointed brother who had been a missionary from the U.K. his assignment was India. That was on the first day. The next day was Pakistan and on another day it was Burma. That was some territory he did end up give a testimony to Mahatma Ghandi and some other leading Govt figures. But the personal bit was when I asked him when will I know if he has his sky pilots licence. He said one day you will be walking down the street and I will knock your hat off and you will know that it wasn’t the wind. I kept that little exchange to myself thinking I’m special. Anyway one day I told it to a friend and he said that is what he was told and there were about twenty others the old stinker had told. He has long gone but remembered very fondly for the good man that he was. You take them as you find them
              cheers bc

            • Richard Long

              Thank you, BC. I chose to delete that comment because I was beginning to confound myself and it seemed unfair to put you on the spot publicly to provide me with answers time will give me anyway if I can just get over myself. I think the very precious gift you have given me is the understanding of the cognitive conflict. It’s like my 15 year old, when FINALLY receiving the diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome at age 11, cried with joy to know her difficulties had a name and a body of understanding she could use to help herself relate to the world!

              This thread and this comment in particular might better encapsulate where the dominant questionings of my heart are leading, should one care to know:

              https://e-watchman.com/topic/why-jehovahs-witnesses/#post-39768

              Clearly I’m on the first steps of a very, very long journey. I thank you for your kind guidance.

            • Richard Long

              I’m laughing right now at what a wound up dope I can be sometimes! lol

            • Daisy

              J Rutherford took the name from Isaiah ‘ in a flash of genius’ said a critic of that time.
              He got out of bed at 2am and wrote on a pad (I’m adding automatic writing question mark) the magic words; ‘ Jehovah’s witnesses’. He could then, said the critic, attach every scripture containing the word ‘witness’, ‘witnessing’ to the name that Jehovah applied to the nation of Israel only.
              In Antioch followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Full stop!
              As BC has listed the 20 odd scriptures with those 2 words within, there’s no mention of Jehovah. But, in the indoctrinated minds of jws those words would imprint on their minds that they are “a special possession’ every time they heard or read them.
              And the other magic word Rutherford omitted when he voiced that …’religion is a snare and a racket is *false*…cos by doing that he made the newly named Jws *true*. True to 8million people who are heading for eternal destruction. A ‘stroke of genius’ indeed thanks to the devil.
              The ‘perfect faith’ you are pursuing can be found by obeying the two commandments Jesus spoke through HS.

              Its really as simple as that!

            • Richard Long

              I shared with Raven the thought process I am currently formulating to deal with my cognitive confiict(s), Daisy. Perhaps you saw them and have some thoughts on the matter, which are always welcome here or my mailbox. I think more emphasis on how to think than what to think is in order just now, as I am clearly still too emotionally attached to the JW religion. It’s hard work learning to walk again, as you know, and I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort you expend in my rehabilitation.?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I wonder sometimes if detail matters! Does it matter what the org is called? It seems not, but then just to add consternation, there is a significance in that title. How much significance seems to be a matter of debate here. As Daisy said, Rutherford just woke up one night and wrote it down….but was that from Satan? What better way to make out a people for his name. And then, there is the good that the watchtower has done and completed. One could ask if bringing the name of Jehovah to the fore, was a good or negative thing but it made the name known and the vindication of that name is critical is it not? I mean, would the ‘Live for Ever Lovers of God Church’ carry the same message?

              I think like as you suggest Richard, getting the mindset of the watchtower out of ones head, is of prime importance in order to see the truth more easily, but there is a problem with that too, for me at least, in that what bits should be thrown out, what are helpful, and what is good….and can we loose sight of the goal through debating issues and taking sides in matters we don’t have an answer to? That’s why I like to keep it simple for me, after decades of watchtower lies. I just want straight, easy to understand truth. After all, is that not what truth is…simple?

            • Richard Long

              The job at hand seems to be eliminating all distraction rather than fighting over which distraction is the least offensive to Jehovah. I agree, the simplest way is the most honest and best way.

            • Burt Reynolds

              The watchtower reminds me of what George Orwell said, ‘The further a society drifts away from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.’

            • Burt Reynolds

              Adds clarity. Thank you Daisy!

            • Richard Long

              Right. Two simple prime directives that encapsulate the whole obligation of man. What fools we are to let others add to them and worse, add to them ourselves. Thanks for the love, Daisy!

            • Daisy

              And, ..encapsulated in those two commandments from Jesus is where our faith and obedience stems to see us through the dark days ahead.
              Our close relationship with Christ and from the ‘helper’ he promised would guide us to truth. John 14:26

              Just to let you know how grateful I am to Russell for releasing me of my catholic beliefs in the trinity and…surprise surprise…my thanks to Rutherford!
              Jehovah used him to find the other sheep not of this fold and has given me the hope of everlasting life on this beautiful planet. How joyful a feeling is that!

            • black curtain

              Richard I have just made a long reply that will create its own problems and I may have gone off on a tangent a bit. A straight to the point answer is this. The Israelites were in a contractual (covenant) relationship with Jehovah as a nation. Therefore whatever they did they were held accountable for what they did as a nation. But christians are not dealt with as a nation. They are judged individually, i.e. you are not held responsible for my sins, I’m not for yours. The only person you are accountable for is YOU. That is an enormous difference. Just putting that conversely the only neck you can save is your own, by what ever your raison detre is for being. That being said when you belong to a religion you hand your conscience over to that religion and you conform to their standards an example of that is Robert King, stop writing I believe is what the WT said to him and we will undisfellowship you. I understand he is still out in the wilderness somewhere writng his memoirs. Everyone has to act according to their OWN conscience Christ will not judge you on the basis that you are a member of The WatchTower Incorporated, trading as Jehovah’s Witnesses- TM registered. Now is the time to establish a personal relationship with the only two who count Jehovah and his appointed King designate Christ. Just addendum in my earlier remarks to you I mentioned that nowhere is the term Jehovah Witnesses used I meant with the exception of Isa 43.10 cheers bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              I must say that I thought the term ‘…you hand your conscience over to that religion…’ Inspirational. I still feel confused at what you suggest re: Jehovah’s organisation, or the watchtower, but there may be a small gap between possession of the watchtower and/or the use of such by Jehovah. Ergo is it his, or does he use it. I’m not sure there is a difference. I don’t rightly know at this point. Certainly no one who knows Jehovah would automatically link Jehovah with the watchtower unless they knew of its significance in that there must be a representative in prophesy, as to whom Jehovah would vindicate his name. There is no one individual that would hold such prominence, or representative guilt, other than the watchtower. And whom would it be that has preached in all the inhabited earth?

              I’m not sure that the fact that the watchtower has taken on the name of Jehovah’s witnesses demands that the whole title is written in the scripture thus. The issue is surely that they claim to carry his name. No other collective on this planet does so with such dependence on the name for its authority, though other religions I understand do use the name as an identifier. And besides, if the scriptures say, ‘you are my witnesses saith jehovah’ just once, does it need to say it twice?

              I agree that we are individually responsible for ourselves toward Jehovah, but there is also, is there not, a collective responsibility in as much as Jehovah tells his people to ‘get out of here my people lest you share in her sins’, in fact, the warning to get out of a collective that is engaging in sin is evidenced from the flood, through Sodom down to 70 AD as well as being reflected in prophesy of today. One may also ask to whom does it apply to, when the scripture says that ‘the love of the greater number will cool off’ and to ‘not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. The only connective that we have as individuals is through the watchtower due to its connectivity and collectivism.

              I agree in that anything we believe in this regard has to be evidenced in the scripture, but are these issues not also from the bible: the watchtower as bringing judgement upon its self, the scattering of the people, the righteous indignation, the annointed, the evil slave, the faithful slave, the false seers, the false prophesies, right down to the choice as to whom to follow. If we take the watchtower out of the equation and reduce the issue to that of individualism and individual responsibility, though certainly correct in that we are judged individually, it is as though we invade a country as a single person and hoped to be noticed in the eyes of the nations. Surely it is the very fact of the watchtower’s treachery to the name, that singles it out for destruction under the revelation of that name? How could we as individuals hope to be a representative of that name to the nations, or as a people, or as a people with a choice to serve Jehovah or serve what? if there is nothing to serve that is in opposition to his name, but bears his name?

            • black curtain

              My dearest Burt, your curiosity stands out. An inquiring mind is usually a “seeker of truth”, that such an honourific fits you beautifully goes without saying. That rascal Richard started this:-)) .I can’t unravel all that you have asked or suggested.
              One of the reasons that I can’t is that you still view things though the prism of WT goggles.
              Jehovah’s purpose does not revolve around WT. The issue of their claim of being HIS organisation is a distraction, pure and simple. Who loves to see honest hearted people pursue distractions?
              It is like me arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I suppose one easy answer might be as many as want, I wouldn’t know, and what is more I can’t prove either way.

              Is there a difference between owning and using a thing, object, tool, organisation you ask. When the U.K. Govt needs an audit done on one of its Dept’s they will often use a high powered accounting firm, KPMG Accountants say. In your mind is there a clear distinction between owning and using in this example? If you can’t there is no reason for me to go further on that subject.

              If your not sure,
              “I’m not sure that the fact that the watchtower has taken on the name of
              Jehovah’s witnesses demands that the whole title is written in the
              scripture thus.”
              Burt the issue of the title is unimportant. it is the ramifications of what they and others THINK it means. More people seem to defend that than they do Jehovah’s purpose.

              You ask is there not a collective responsibility. “in as much as Jehovah tells his people to ‘get out of here my people lest you share in her sins’. What is the collective responsibility here? It is not collective as far as I can see, it is a personal request addressed to whomever will listen. In fact it seems to be quite clear that “people” should leave religion including WT because WT is a religion. Not everyone is Jehovah’s “people.”

              (Matthew 7:15-23) 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

              Does this help you understand who God’s people are? By their fruits you will recognise them.
              The chestnut that J”Jehovah’s Witnesses” did all that preaching is no guarantee that they are Jehovah’s “people.” Didn’t Jesus say, good for nothing slave you have only done what you ought have done?
              But this claiming that they and they alone are God’s people has an air of arrogance about it. This is the very issue that has got them thrown out of Russia.
              Who are any of us that presumes upon themself to tell Jehovah who HIS people are? There we go but for the grace of God, what a dreadful lack of humility and it runs deep through Witnesses, and much to my shame I have repeated that line myself.
              There seems to be an unsaid, unspoken belief that when the apostle John died that all matters concerning righteous men and women ceased and God just waited till C.T. Russell kick started the Bible students and that Jehovah had no people. Why? Because there was no WT Org? Jehovah selects his own people and he who endures to the end is the one that will be saved.

              My apologies Burt I really don’t understand your point in the last para. When the bible speaks of christians bringing judgement upon themselves my present understanding is that this refers to the entire worldwide body of people who call themselves christians. When Jehovah gives the signal christianity in all its aspects will be destroyed first, then the judging by Christ will commence no doubt. Some of this is already in place Commonsenseevaluation.com

              (Daniel 11:36-39) 36 “And the king will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things. And he will certainly prove successful until [the] denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done. 37 And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration; and to the desire of women and to every other god he will give no consideration, but over everyone he will magnify himself. 38 But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things. 39 And he will act effectively against the most fortified strongholds, along with a foreign god. Whoever has given [him] recognition he will make abound with glory, and he will actually make them rule among many; and [the] ground he will apportion out for a price.

              A foreign God, a god that his fathers did not know. There are certain religious people flooding Europe, a bastion of christianity, who have no affection for christians whatsoever. I don’t care to say any further other than events are rushing to a conclusion. Belonging to any monolithic multi billion dollar Corporation will not save you. I am sorry but I have said more than many will cope with. Burt if you ask a question of me, should I be here on this site please just ask one or two in short sentences it is much easier to supply an answer (just teasing) Keep the inquiries coming, you remind me of Simeon at the temple
              my very best to you
              bc

            • Bklyn Kevin

              More food for thought…..

              .“You Are My Witnesses” – When?.
              https://e-watchman.com/you-are-my-witnesses-when/

        • Warren Gee

          John 10:27-28New International Version (NIV)
          27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

          Luke 21:8New International Version (NIV)
          8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

          What Watchtower said
          prior to 1914
          What Watchtower claims it said
          prior to 1914
          “The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord – …” The Time is At Hand (1911 ed) p.239
          “The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914.” Watchtower 1993 Jan 15 p.5
          “But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion’s Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226
          “Jehovah’s witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of “the conclusion of the system of things.” Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p.8

          Indeed it is true…how could they be his people when he said not to follow them?

        • Daisy d

          Have you read Steven Hassan’s book “Combatting Cult Mind Control”?
          The cap fits the WTO hold over the minds of Jws, as you say, to a ‘t’.
          Just want you to know sister, that there are three of us , that i know of, who are praying for you …specially.
          Keep digging , as your homework has already lead you to the one whom Jehovah has ” given *all* authority over heaven and earth” and away from a false prophet, hence your hurt, but antichrists are being revealed and… be assured that we have all been led here for a reason, Jehovah knows “those who are his own” and nothing is “by chance” to those who love Jehovah. Much love to you dear Sharon from Daisy …

        • Dr. Moreau

          all those things happened in Jerusalem back then too when Jehovah used Babylon to tear her down and take Jerusalem into exile.

          “… Unless Jehovah of armies himself had left remaining to us just a few survivors, we should have become just like Sodom, we should have resembled Gomorrah itself. 10 Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU dictators of Sodom. Give ear to the law of our God, YOU people of Gomorrah. 11…

          getting out of her is to stop acting like her and participating with her and return to Jehovah.

          ” The coming collapse of the present system will set the stage for the beast to emerge from the abyss. Under those circumstances Jehovah’s Witnesses will find themselves in uncharted territory and the command of God to “get out of her my people” will finally be understood.” – https://e-watchman.com/babylon-the-great/

    • muldoon55 .

      If I were a God fearing Jew in Jeremiahs day looking around and seeing the abhorrent acts of the Israelites, such as temple prostitution, Baal worship, child sacrifice to molech etc, I , as you do ,could easily draw the conclusion that they were a devil worshiping cult however they were still the seed of Abraham and in a covenant relationship with Jehovah and as such deserved Gods wrath that Nebuchadnezzar wrought upon them late in the 6th century B.C.E
      But that wrath was with a purpose of cleansing and eventually restoring a chastened few to their land to once again carry out pure worship and provide the lineage that would lead to Christ
      This foreshadowed the situation we see with present day JWs
      So even though we see great evil occurring in that group we must remember they are still Gods people
      ripe for a refining and eventual restoration

      • Bklyn Kevin

        More food for thought.

        Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind+ and would no longer walk with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life
        John 6:. Read more> Many stumble at Jesus’ words (60-71)https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/6/#v43006060-v43006071

        • Burt Reynolds

          I’ve always found that scripture very moving and desperate. One can just imagine Jesus seeing those faithless ones walk away, and turning to the 12 with that question. There must have been that moment when waiting for their answer. The sense of abandonment must have been awful for him….like watching your children walking away, shunning you for your stand. An awful moment for Jesus.

    • Bklyn Kevin
  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834
    • The Raven

      I expected this much. It remains to be seen what the rest of the former Soviet satellite nations do with this too. I see Robert’s tweet on the issues with Crimea as well. It doesn’t look good for them right now.

      • Richard Long

        Flash in Syria, Bang in Ukraine. Whatever it takes for the empire to provoke Russia. How much you wager the empire (London/DC/Vatican) is funding the Orthodox Hierarchy’s and Putin’s efforts here?

        • The Raven

          Good possibility. But I think Putin has bigger ideas concerning the Orthodox church. I view the award he gave the JWs a few weeks back as a hat tip, of sorts. He needs the support of the Orthodox church in the coming days. That man plays the long game well.

          • Richard Long

            Surely you don’t suggest that the noble Putin would be playing both or all sides? Ima gonna say he is individually the shrewdest piece Satan has on the board.

            • The Raven

              I’d say his interests are with Russia. He has already jailed or chased out a number of oligarchs in the past and forced those who remained to play ball or else. He has also forged many alliances with nations the US/UK view as rogues and now told the NGO’s to go packing. It appears to me he is frustrating the empire’s plans, not furthering them.
              If he has to have the support of the Orthodox church it will be because he knows war is coming. They will stand by him.

            • Richard Long

              Yep, shrewdest piece on the board!

            • The Raven

              Satan owns the board. I don’t know if he owns all the pieces…yet.

            • Richard Long

              Thats fair. at least Putin didn’t hire every one of his own stated enemies he could find a desk for. If the unthinkable happens, it will likely as not be IN the oval office.

            • The Raven

              That’s a good observation and I agree. Some appointments were very reasonable. Others…terrible.

            • The Raven

              There’s something else I think about with this. Since we are close to the start of these things when war does break out we know some nations will go down in flames. Those who perish due to the horsemen of war, famine and pestilence go to the grave, not Gehenna. Even though the kingdom’s are said to belong to Satan these times make things a little different as it appears from scripture not all will be compliant. Those who survive and give their allegiance to the final king are done. That’s one reason I’m hesitant in labeling them right now.

            • Richard Long

              Very fair observation. We all had a discussion some time back during the letter writing campaign before the ban was adjudicated and the general consensus seemed to be ROC as villain, Putin as enabler, but also a more “noble” patriot fighting to preserve the sovereignty of his nation-state against the globalist empire. David and Goliath type drama, if you will. Many of us regarded Putin’s most pressing and relevant beef with the WT to be its UN NGO entanglements rather than religious conflicts, but, as you point out, his very survival depends on his alliance with Kirill, which might still not be enough to save him an ignominious death. I look for Kirill to betray him.

              Putin, the man, presents as honest, straight-forward, pragmatic and courageous in the press I have viewed. Even with my acerbic views of authority, one, if honest, must admire the man. Anybody who resists the empire is confronting Satan himself, and I think Mr Putin not unworthy of our prayers in his behalf, should we be moved to approach Jehovah with them.

              When you said “hat tip” earlier, did you mean to the “support” of the Russian witnesses as citizens, like to ease the social pressure on them or what? Sorry to be thick on that point.

            • The Raven

              I’m in agreement with Robert on the matter concerning the dual headed beast that gets the mortal wound. I think he’s right that this is the US/UK. they fit quite well. Beyond that I can state that this war will destroy a quarter of humanity as scripture states. As it looks right now we see the polarization NATO and the eastern bloc, so to speak are undergoing. Russia is encircled by the west’s bases and facing down all sorts of devastating weapons at their doorstep. China isn’t happy either. Those are the facts at hand. We plead for peace but arm to the teeth and force them to do the same.
              I agree the NGOs were mainly a base for numerous spies and lets face it, they got caught by the FSB repeatedly in Chechnya, Kyrgyzstan and other countries aiding known terrorists who bombed civilians and sought to launch “color” revolutions in Russia as well. The only support I see the church giving him will be in the form of approval for the fight for mother Russia. Putin will not repeat the mistakes made in the past with communism. All Russians will stand with him. The JWs will not. He knows this. Although the court ruled them out I see that award as a tacit acknowledgment on his part personally that he understands their position. Nothing he does is by accident or inconsequential. It’s all researched and scripted. If Russia survives the first strike we see where this goes afterwards.
              But right now, I am not certain they will come out of this as anything they were before and I don’t think many will including the leaders we have as well.

            • The Raven

              BTW, I think looking at this in a more pragmatic way where it concerns governments serves me to better understand their positions. I try not to see any of these individual leaders as good guys or bad guys entirely, because they are being maneuvered into making some decisions that will cost the lives of billions and their objective here will be to kill their opponent and/or just survive. I don’t know who will launch first but it’s not going to matter to the dead who’s decal is on the side of those ICBMs. The living…we’ll see.

            • Richard Long

              True that!

  • Craig Knight

    I had a Bible study with this Hawaiian couple many years ago and I was actually real proud of the Aid Books chronology on 1914. I didn’t even question it at all. I had heard of the secular dates being different but just blew it off. Many years later when I was thinking of returning to the mad house, I started to study Carl Oloff Johnson’s book. That chronology thing can give you a headache for sure but Johnson’s book is worth the pain in the neck to read. I’m sure most of you have read it. I you haven’t I really recommend it.

  • The Ancient Witness

    I believe that most people that come to Robert King’s website AKA
    e-watchman.com are indeed critical thinking individuals looking for
    truth and more or less some general guidance. This is a good thing!

    Afterbeing
    let astray for many years in the Watchtower twilight zone, it is
    difficult to move on and sort the many lies and deceptions out. Many
    have destroyed lives and many have gone on to freedom. And then some
    have died and/or committed suicide as a direct result of Watchtower
    policies and trappings.

    One thing is very true and that is the
    Watchtower Society/Governing Body of Elders/the writing committee and
    soforth are indeed >> false prophets <<< This has been
    proven time and again. The evidence is in their own publications and
    writings. Jehovah's Witnesses have placed the word and doctrine of men
    above the word of God. I simply say do the research and prove to
    yourself what is true and what is false.
    1st John 4: 1, 2. ..and there are other verses…do the research!

    May Jehovah bless your search for the truth.
    Ancient Witness

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