I Will Discipline You to the Proper Degree

//I Will Discipline You to the Proper Degree

Monday, July 4

I will open my mouth with illustrations.Matt. 13:35.

Some believe that Satan is “in charge” of hellfire. We could ask them: “Imagine that your child has become very rebellious and is doing many bad things. How would you react?” Likely, the parent would say that he would correct his child. But what would he do if the child rejected all efforts to help him? Most parents would say that eventually they would have no choice but to punish the child. We could then ask, “What if you found out that an evil person had influenced your child to become so rebellious?” No doubt, the parent would be angry with such a person. Driving home the point of the illustration, we might ask the parent, “Knowing that an evil individual had influenced your child, would you ask that person to punish your child for you?” The answer, of course, would be no. Clearly, then, God would not use Satan to punish the very same people who have been influenced by the Devil himself to do bad things!

COMMENTARY

Jesus was a masterful storyteller. His illustrations are timeless and true and always drove home a profound lesson – ultimately revealing some aspect of Jehovah’s future judgments. The Watchtower needs to work on it.

Of course there is no subterranean inferno where Satan tortures hapless souls in eternity for a few misspent years on earth. But, the underlying premise of Bethel’s illustration is definitely not valid. Jehovah does allow Satan to punish his people even though the Devil is responsible for misleading them in the first place. This is a fundamental, biblical principle.

Paul demonstrated this very thing when he commanded the Corinthians to put a brazen fornicator out of the congregation, saying: “hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.” Being handed over to Satan meant that Jesus would no longer protect and watch over such a man.

Now, take God’s dealings with the Israelites. He gave them his law. But in time they rebelled. He tried to correct them by sending them his prophets. They refused to listen. God was obligated to punish them by a cruel tyrant. Consider a passage in the 30th chapter of Jeremiah: “‘For I am with you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to save you. But I will make an extermination among all the nations to which I scattered you; however, you I will not exterminate. I will discipline you to the proper degree, and I will by no means leave you unpunished.’ For this is what Jehovah says: ‘There is no cure for your breakdown. Your wound is incurable. There is no one to plead your cause, no means of healing your ulcer. There is no cure for you. All your passionate lovers have forgotten you. They no longer seek you out. For with the stroke of an enemy I have struck you, with the punishment of someone cruel, because of your great guilt and your many sins.’”

Although God took responsibility for meting out the punishment, he personally did not administer it. As stated above, their punishment came in the form of “the stroke of an enemy,” from “someone cruel.” In reality the Jews were besieged by the merciless Babylonian hordes. Their cities were destroyed. Their homes ransacked and pillaged. Solomon’s magnificent temple was demolished. The survivors were dragged off in chains to Babylon, the then-capital of Satan’s earthly empire. God abandoned his people and allowed the Devil to mistreat them. Clearly, Jehovah does use Satan to administer discipline —completely counter to the premise of the Watchtower’s illustration.

But happily, Jehovah did not allow the enemy to exterminate the Jews —they were disciplined to the proper degree. In the ancient setting the discipline achieved the desired result. The Jews returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt Jehovah’s temple and never again took up the worship of Molech or Chemosh or any of the other demon Baals.

But in what way did God “make an extermination among all the nations” back then? Obviously he didn’t. Although Babylon did exterminate some nations outright, such as Moab, Ammon and Edom, and eventually Babylon itself was extinguished – the nations as a whole endured. The reason is because the prophecy really has a future application. That is verifiable in the concluding verses of the 30th chapter of Jeremiah, which says: “Look! A windstorm of Jehovah will burst out in fury, a sweeping tempest that whirls down on the head of the wicked. The burning anger of Jehovah will not turn back until he has carried out and accomplished the intentions of his heart. In the final part of the days you will understand this.”

The final part of the days is the same as the time of the end, the last days and the conclusion of the system. And the critical concluding phase has not began yet. That is why Jehovah’s Witnesses do not understand God’s judgments, because it is only “in the final part of the days that you will understand this.”

As with the wayward Jews whose spiritual breakdown was incurable by peaceful means, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is heading for a breakdown. The reason is because the leadership cannot be corrected by any means. They scoff at counsel or criticism and punish anyone who tries to correct them. Their condition is incurable. Therefore, their well-deserved discipline will come during the tribulation. That is when God will administer punishment to the proper degree. That is alluded to at Jeremiah 30:7, which states, simply: “Alas! For that day is a terrible one. There is none like it, a time of distress for Jacob. But he will be saved out of it.”

Jesus referred to the tribulation as being unlike any time if distress that has ever before occurred or will ever occur again. But, on account of the chosen ones God will cut it short. That is the time of Jacob’s trouble, as some translations word it. Nevertheless, “Jacob” will be saved out of it. Then is when Jehovah will cause an outright extermination of the nations so that they will no longer even exist.

To confirm that the punishment to the proper degree is scheduled for Christians in the future, Jeremiah 30:9 decrees: “They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”

“David” is, of course, Jesus Christ, who was a son of David and heir to the throne. Notice, please, God raises up “David” for his people during the terrible day, the “time of distress for Jacob.”

The Watchtower unreservedly proclaims that God gave “David” the Kingdom back in 1914. However, that cannot be the case, since as this prophecy and virtually all others besides, indicates that Christ’s Kingdom comes to power during the tribulation. That is also when he becomes the Savior of God’s people. The very fact that Bethel has perpetrated a fraud in the name of Jehovah for so long, upon a trusting people, even if out of ignorance, is cause for their being punished to the proper degree, with some individuals more deserving than others

To that very point in one of Jesus’ most important illustrations the Master foretold that even the slave who is ultimately judged to have been faithful and discreet will be beaten with a few strokes for having disobeyed  out of ignorance. In the 12th chapter of Luke Jesus affirmed the principle of punishment to the proper degree, applying it to the evil and faithful slaves: “the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.”

Unfortunately for them, the leadership of the Watchtower has a lot more to work on than merely the proper use of illustrations. 

 

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2017-06-22T15:11:50+00:00 July 4th, 2016|Commentary|114 Comments
  • e.v.g

    Some of the brothers who write the speeches at conventions are very clever, I caught my attention a speech about not being followers of men , the speech was referring to not have preferred elders specifically, but for the leaders of the organization said nothing. Usually the brothers and sisters feel comfortable with understandable and attentive elders because some elders focus on trivial and mechanical matters. It is like if the FDS have no errors and only we have to follow their advice, the Pharisees were jealous of Jesus Christ because “they loved the glory of men even more than the glory of God”. That’s why they did not warn us not to be followers of them.

    • e.v.g

      The leadership of the Org. are knowing the message of the e watchman but they are twisting the meaning of the scriptures on purpose.

  • Burt Reynolds

    What is it then that we should be aware of; to not be ignorant of? What are we in ignorance of that has led us to disobey? If we are disobeying in our ignorance, then how can we obtain, and from where, this knowledge so that we can at least try to obey? The depth of meaning found within the scriptures is not available to all, and certainly not me. I cannot read these things with understanding, though I may obtain the gist of it. Revelation? Daniel? Ezekiel? I don’t have insight to these things and as far as the watchtower goes, well it’s like the English weather. If you don’t like it, wait a minute. The watchtower puts the flop in flipflop. Also, in Sodom, we see Jehovah willing to spare the entire city for the sake of ten righteous souls, yet in other instances, taking the lives of the first born, what one might call innocent bystanders, in Egypt during the ten plagues. I would really like to see the continuity in these examples because were not some of these first born also just acting in innocence or even totally unaware of wrongdoing?

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Podcast #20
      Program considers the quality of faith.
      https://e-watchman.com/podcast-20/

      Definition of faith (1, 2)
      Examples of faith (3-40)
      Impossible to please God without faith (6)

      Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.
      For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them.

      Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/hebrews/11/

      • Alexandra Bogolin Bautista

        Thank you (again!) Kevin for your comforting and scriptural response. Like Burt, I often feel overwhelmed thinking about how to cure my ignorance….but intelligence won’t save us….faith in Jesus and in Jehovah’s sovereignty will.

        This week my congregation had our circuit overseer visit. Here are a couple direct quotes.
        “We should equally teach scripture and the importance of the organization with our bible students.”
        “The organization is the life saving ark. Just like Noah, unless we get in the ark, we will not survive.”

        Thankfully, I had my “ah ha” moment during that speech. There is no way the organization is the ark!! Our FAITH is the ark. My faith is what will carry me through the rough seas. Yes, in some good ways “the organization” has built up my faith, but the fact that the COs are being told to teach this to all the congregations is actually faith strengthening to me that we are that much closer to Christ’s true coming….because His house has become a cave of robbers and hypocrites.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          But looking at the windstorm, he became afraid. And when he started to sink, he cried out: “Lord, save me!” Immediately stretching out his hand, Jesus caught hold of him and said to him: “You with little faith, why did you give way to doubt?.

          Read more> Jesus walks on water (22-33)https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/14/#v40014022-v40014033

        • Christian Obadiah

          I remember a brother made a similar statement in the convention. He said something along the lines of “obeying the organization means that we are obeying Jehovah”. There was even one whole talk about how we should talk about the organization to others in order to show our appreciation.

          On a side note, what did you think about the videos depicting the Great Tribulation? I thought it looked like a picknick in the park compared to what Jesus says in the Bible.

          • Alexandra Bogolin Bautista

            Agreed. Pretty comfortable looking great tribulation. I realize it was just a video depiction and I’m trying to not be overly critical of the org, but they made it look like an uncomfortable afternoon in a basement. I know little kids are in the audience and I’m personally not a mother, but perhaps they keep that in mind when producing the videos.

            • Christian Obadiah

              Yeah, you bring up a good point.

            • Sam

              I’d like to know where they got the bunker from if they all followed the same advice as that pioneer couple to give up thier “comfortable life”and live out of trailers lol i dont know any witnesses with bunkers. Looks nice on film but nothing is ever grounded in any form of reality. They wish the common publisher to slum it while they live in luxury. Thats the reality. But thats off topic now isnt it. 😛

  • Cate

    What is it that we should be aware of? That Jesus did not return in 1914. This might lead Witnesses and very possibly the organization itself to not accept Christ when he truly returns.

    I’m going to go out against what Br King says about 1914 and the 7 times being completely insignificant. Read Isaiah 6, especially the last verse. You will notice that is the same chapter where “Here I Am, Send Me!” comes from.

    The thing about the 7 times… Yes the 2,520 days/years (it’s really not that hard of a concept for me to accept, but if it is for you, I don’t know how to help) were important.

    The seven times are mentioned in Daniel 4. But pay attention to the rest of the book. The one other dream that Daniel interpreted was about the image, (do not make for yourself a carved image, why the WT doesn’t remind us of this when it talked about the image is silly because it took a long time for me to see) which is important.

    Also, look at the two times an angel visited Daniel, in 9 and again in 10-12. Daniel 9 is a prayer (in fulfillment of Jeremiah 29:10-14… Or perhaps these were just instructions that Daniel followed, as this chapter is a letter from Jeremiah in Jerusalem to the captives in Babylon, including Daniel) But notice the time it gives at the end, until the Messiah. 70 weeks, the first 7 and 62 fulfilled with the baptism of Jesus. The last week though… Pay attention to what it says. It talks about something important happening at the half of that last week. I think at Daniel 12:11,12 this angel gave him the specific amount of time for that last week, 1,290 days/years and 1,335 days/years. The current explanation of the calculation of 2,520 is that it is 1,260 twice. But why wouldn’t we use the 1,290 and 1,335? This would bring us to 2019! So is that the date we should be looking for?

    But look at what happened at the 1,290 days, or in 684. What happened then? Anything? This is when Islam started taking over. Could this possibly be the disgusting thing that causes desolation? How does it do that? And how did it remove the constant feature/CONTINUAL SACRIFICE?

    Look at what the inscriptions say on the Dome of the Rock. (which is built over the ruins of the old temples in Jerusalem, supposedly) The words are taken from the Quran, and they attribute not only life but DEATH to God and that God has no son.

    They do not have the continual sacrifice of Christ’s shed blood because they simply do not believe in it. So how can any Muslim hope to live again? And if God intentionally gives us death, then… You are missing the whole point. Death didn’t come on to the scene until Cain killed Abel. Yes, Man and Woman had already sinned and were doomed to death but they were still alive at this point. No one had died. Genesis 4:15 also talks about 7 times. Could hear possibly be related? I definitely think so, and it has to do with judgement and death. Who is our judge? Daniel means “God is my Judge.”

    But that starting point of the 7 times… That’s a little messed up. If you look anywhere else besides the JW literature, the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem did not take place in 607 bce. But if they didn’t start then, how could the 70 years have been fulfilled?

    I think they started with the fulfillment of Isaiah 39:7, 2 Kings 20:17, 18 (court officials… Yeah. Most translations read “eunuch”) Which was fulfilled in Daniel himself and his companions, Daniel 1:3.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I’m not a mathematician so I will simply state that the signs as yet are unfulfilled. Regardless of the dates and what might be inscribed on a rock In Jerusalem the signs that the chronology points to are largely unfulfilled in relation to 1914. If the outcome is not evident, then it stands to reason that the mathematics is wrong.

      • Cate

        You didn’t read what I wrote… I’m saying the math this organization taught me and from reading true bible the seven times will end, in the future, in 2019/2020… Or my math could be wrong. I just need someone to bounce this off of.

        Any thoughts?

        • my thoughts is that its sooner and our faith in Jehovah is what counts. get it? counts* ha

          i hope not 2020 :/ thats toooo loooong

          • 1914for100Alex

            I agree. It sure seems like things are being sped up a bit lately. There’s no shortage of signs either. I recently got a wake up call during the elections. I was getting a little too involved, and all of a sudden something (someone ^) snapped me out of it. I had been familiar with this site for a little while, occasionally reading Robert’s posts, but after my wake up call I’ve been back pretty much every day trying to absorb it all. Something’s coming, and we all know what it is.

          • Cate

            Toooo looong, yes. Which is why Jesus did not tell his disciples 2,000 years ago, I’m guessing. Because he knew, he was talking about Daniel’s prophecy. He would have been able to understand what it said.

            The gist is that the seven times are the same as the last week from Daniel 9:27, and the time period is given as 1,290 days and 1,335 days at Daniel 12:11,12. Instead of 2,520 days we have 2,625. Which would end in 2019, IF the starting date is correct. IF.

            Maybe Jesus was right not to say too much. Maybe I should have followed his example.

            So who are the bigger brains on here you talk about? And do you have a name, or should I just call you 34DD?

          • kevinb 1914

            ‘Amerigeddon’ to Armageddon… in 1335 days. If ‘Amerigeddon’ is this year, we have 3.5 months left to ‘keep on the watch’!

            The ‘know one knows the day or the hour’ prophecy still applies, but keep in mind that Son of God and YAH’s angels certainly knew when the 6th day of creation ended. They can easily calculate when the 1000 years begins by adding 6,000 years to the end of the 6th creative day. The term ‘day and hour’ is a Greek translation of a Hebrew term which is accurately translated as ‘the exact moment in time’. Also, what the Son of God was referring to as ‘the exact moment in time’ was ‘when you see the despicable thing standing in a holy place, then flee to the mountains. ‘Then a tribulation, such as never occurred’ will begin.

            The prophecy at Zechariah 14:1-9 states that the ‘Great Day of God the Almighty’, will occur ‘at night’, and will be in ‘summer and in winter’. Since spiritual Yahrushalom is in the northern hemisphere, it will be ‘summer’ when the ‘Day of YAH’ and Armageddon occurs. It will be ‘winter’ in the southern hemisphere. The ‘Day of YAH’UAH’ is on the final day of the last ‘1335 days’ when God’s Kingdom will crush the armies of the NWO (New World Order) (Daniel 12:12).

            So counting backwards from the start of ‘summer’ takes us to October 24th (or 25th, if it is on a non leap year) for the start of the ‘Great Suffering’ and the beginning of the final ‘1335 days’. This because ‘summer’ begins on June 20th in the northern hemishpere on leap years, such as this year, and June 21st on non leap years. The ‘Great Suffering’ begins with ‘AmeriGEDDON’, the temporary destruction of the US. ‘AmeriGEDDON’ is actually a movie that had a limited release in May, 2016. The movie does not depict ‘Amerigeddon’ prophesy with 100% accuracy. The reality will be much, much worse!

            As a side note to Robert, the United States/London, as the 7th ‘head that is slaughtered to death’ is not the US dollar crashing. People will be ‘buying and selling’ when the tribulation begins. Does that sound like the ‘death stroke’ will be the crash of the dollar? People will be ‘building and planting’. Does that sound like the US economy will collapse ‘like a thief in the night’?

            So to accurately calculate the approximate day for the start of the ‘Great Suffering/Great Tribulation’ that begin the last ‘1335 days’, we have to count ‘1335 days’ backwards from the start of ‘summer’ 2020… if the Tribulation begins this year. So we have 110 days from today until the night of October 24th, 2016 to get ready spiritually for the day ‘when you see the despicable thing standing in a holy place’. ‘On that day, do not go back to your home for anything’, even for your ‘go bag/bug out bag’!

            YAH’USHA, the true Son of God, will visibly ‘return’ to establish God’s Kingdom on earth, during the ‘night’ of the ‘summer’ solstice, on the 1335th and ‘final day’ of the prophetic ‘last days’. The Lord’s visible ‘return’ will be seen by all still alive on earth when ‘summer’ begins. ‘When you see fig tree bud, then you know that summer is near. So also, when all these things come to pass, then know that that He (and the Kingdom of God) is near’. (Matthew 24:32,33) (Luke 21:29-31)

            So the Son of God’s return will be on the summer solstice, in the Northern Hemisphere on June 20, 2020… if the Tribulation begins this year. Astronomers have stated that a very rare and unusual alignment will occur on that day. The earth, moon and sun will all be aligned on the ‘galactic equator’ of the Milky Way galaxy, so it will be a truly momentous day in many ways, but obviously, and most importantly, spiritually!

            • well it sounds like you got it all worked out. good luck with that an may the force be with you

            • kevinb 1914

              Good luck? I don’t believe in ‘luck’. I believe in ‘searching
              intently to try and find out the time and circumstances’ of the 2nd coming and ‘paying attention to the prophetic word’. Do you? (1 Peter 1:10-12, 2 Peter 1:19)

              Also,
              my understanding of the expression ‘may the force be with you’ comes
              from Star Wars and is really referring to Satan’s spirit.

            • i believe people are predictable

          • Joe Dman

            No kidding. It’s always another date or time frame. I’ve been a slave to dates ever since I read the “live forever” book. I’m done. Well, almost. I’m still hoping that they won’t get completely moved out of New York before the end. But after that. Wait, what’s this about 2020?

        • Burt Reynolds

          Hello Cate, welcome to the site. I did read your article, many times in fact, but it was too involved for me, though of course that is only my opinion. That’s why I said that I was no mathematician. The time of the end, no one knows. We are given startling signs of what will be leading up to and during and after the event. I am sure you are conversant with these. For people like me, of a simple, rather than an academic faith, the general signs are often enough. The chronology is open to a never ending dispute, but the signs of the times are not. They are clear. And more to the point, they are clear from the bible. If you read the relevant articles on this site, especially the more recent ones, you can see this for yourself and check them out against the bible as to their validity of what is being said. There is no doubt that 1914 is a lie just as our brother D34 says. But you have to know this for yourself, and who knows if 2019 or 2020 is correct?. And what good would it do us because it is faith that will support us, not the time of day or year. We can say this emphatically because the signs that the watchtower tells us that form and support this date of 1914, including the chronology, are just not there. How do we know this? Because the bible shows to the discerning reader, and one with faith, that the mechanisms of retribution have yet to fall into place and that will illustrate to mankind not only his inability to govern himself, but that Jehovah himself has become king. For me, and I speak only for myself, the mathematics of how we got to this time, though of help in confirming the times we live in, are otherwise irrelevant to me because I am mathematically illiterate. A day for a year, add two weeks, subtract the fall of Jerusalem date, add three more weeks, turn these into a week of years, devide by three and a half……no. It’s all too much, especially when the critical times we live in are slapping me in the face and kicking me up the backside and shouting out that the time of the kingdom is near. Not only that, but the signs that the watchtower is false to itself is clear in itself. Look at the corruption. Look at the other signs such as the immediacy of war, the collapsing monetary systems worldwide, that the preaching work is global, that men are faint out of fear…and this is before it all starts,…that the governing body are unable to see and neither, yet, can the witnesses. I look at the signs, I do look at the history, I am aware of the chronology, though I cannot remember it from one day to the next, but know that it is all supportive of the fuller picture but most of all, all that I read in the bible, shows me the way of faith and supports my love of the righteousness found in the embodiment of Christ who reflects the glory of Jehovah. Take your time, read what you find on this site and weigh it in the balance. It will find you, just as it has led you here. For me, it is more wise to heed the word of Jehovah and to learn to love him in faith and to make myself worthy, than to try to mimic him in knowing the end from the beginning, because of that, no body knows. Of that you can be certain.

        • Alexandra Bogolin Bautista

          Be wary of any dates period. If a religious group or leadership is giving a date, they are putting themselves above God. Welcome to this site Cate! Don’t be afraid to ask questions (people here have been very kind and patient with me) keep listening to the podcasts and all the other info and PRAYING for wisdom and faith.

        • kevinb 1914

          The start of the ‘appointed times of the nations’ began with the fall of Yahrushalom (now referred to as Jerusalem) around June of 586 CE. The 7 times are not 2,520 years. There is no year with 360 days in it. That is a an unscriptural fabrication made up by the satanic Society of modern day Pharisees, who have no holy spirit and are controlled by the satanic Jesuits from the Vatican (who control all religions).

          The ‘appointed times of the nations’ are ‘7 times’ of 365.25 years, as 365.25 days are the number of days in a solar year. The Sovereign has always used solar days and solar years. He did use lunar months under the Law, but by the time of Yahuchannon’s (now known as John’s) revelation, the Roman calendar was in use. The Romans used solar days, months and years.

          So the ‘appointed times of the nations’ actually ended in 1971, which is when the spiritual nation of Israel was born in ‘one day’ (Isaiah 66:8). Not so coincidentally, that was the year the modern day Pharisees formed their Governing body. All nations have a ruling body, but in the ‘Israel of God’, they should be unselfish servants, not power loving, prominence seeking, selfishly ambitious, wicked Masters… which is what they are!

          The ‘generation that will by no means pass away’ does NOT begin with the end of the ‘appointed times of the nations’. The ‘generation that will by no means pass away’ is the final ‘generation’ of true anointed ones ‘who will by no means pass away until all things occur’. The anointed remnant that completed the ‘full number from the nations’ of the 144,000 ‘bought from the earth’ was reached in 1935. (Rom 11:25)

          • e.v.g

            That was werdiest than Cindy lauper songs and divo the B52’s and all that weird bands from the eighties.

            • kevinb 1914

              Huh? “That was werdiest….”

              Ok, I’ll try to keep it simple for you… using only a few words so that someone even at the level of a 2 year old will be able to understand.

            • Sam

              I can tell you’re fun to have around

            • ?????
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              ?????

              ♪duom duom doum doum duom

            • e.v.g

              Oh yeah!!!! the goonies are back or whatever

          • Bklyn Kevin

            A Conversation Regarding 1914.https://e-watchman.com/conversation-regarding-1914/

            What Do The Seven Times Mean?.
            https://e-watchman.com/seven-times-mean/

            The meaning of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness?.

            https://e-watchman.com/the-seven-times-of-nebuchadnezzar/

            • kevinb 1914

              I do not understand what Robert is talking about. What does he mean that the ‘appointed times of the nations’ has not yet begun and is in the future? http://jehovah-is-king.com/gentile-times/

              Yahrushalom (Jerusalem) has been trampled by the nations ever since the 1st century, when they fell by the sword to the Romans, who destroyed the city as prophesied by the Son of God.

              I now believe that the ‘7 times’ applies to Nebuchadnezzar himself. The Witchtower Society is completely lost without any holy spirit whatsoever! It takes a while to get all of their spiritual poison out of my system. That is why I no longer eat and drink the spiritual junk food that is served at ‘the table of demons’ by the wicked slave, who really are satanic ‘masters of peoples faith’, ‘lording it over them’! (1 Cor 10:21, 2 Cor 1:24, 1 Peter 5:3)

              If that is so, then the ‘7 times’ do not apply prophetically to any literal timeline. In the scriptures, 7 is spiritual perfection/completeness, so the prophesy is simply a symbolic timeline that ends when human leaders of all the nations are replaced by the ruler of God’s Kingdom, the Son of God himself.

              I now also believe that the ‘appointed times of the nations’ appears to be referring to the time when new Yahrushalom (new Jerusalem) comes down over the western portion of what is now known as the United States, to become the capital city of God’s Kingdom on earth.

              Which means that current Jerusalem will continue to be trampled on, even by the King of the North (Dan 11:41) during the last days and that the physical temple in Jerusalem will never be rebuilt, as many so-called bible scholars falsely misinterpret prophesy that has already been fulfiled.

              So the ‘7 times’ and the ‘appointed times of the nations’ are not related, as falsely and incorrectly taught by the Witchtower!

          • the times of the nations has not begun. that is Jehovah’s day.

            Chapter 2 – The GENTILE TIMES – jehovah-is-king.com/gentile-times

          • Cate

            The seven times are not 2,520 years. Yes the Jews had a 360 day year, but they also added a leap month every so often to keep on track with solar year. Which is why i think it’s plausible to think that they could be 1,290 years + 1,335 years. They don’t end on the same date and there have been no ‘gaps’.

            And did it really start when Jerusalem was finally burned to the ground? I think it started before that, when the prophecy in Isaiah 39 was fulfilled. I think they started the same year Jeremiah had the vision in chapter 25. I think they started when Daniel and his companions were brought to Babylon and made eunuchs.

            • kevinb 1914

              There was never a 360 day prophetic year in a bible prophecy, period. When did the Jews ever have a 360 day year? Never! They did have to add a 13th month, because of using lunar months, but where did you come up with ‘the Jews had a 360 day year, but they also added a leap month every so often to keep on track with solar year’? I’ve never read that in the scriptures, or anywhere else for that matter.

              Also, the 1335 days and the 1290 days are literal solar days. The 42 months are also literal solar months (which is 3.5 solar years/1278 solar days). The ‘times, times and half a time’ are also literal solar years and is used by the Almighty to show that it is approximately 3.5 solar years, but not exactly.

              Those ‘days’ and ‘months’ and ‘times’ are literal timeline prophecies relating to the ‘last days’… and are all in the very near future. That’s what Paul was referring to when he used the term ‘last days’ used in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. They are not, as the Witchtower falsely states, referring to the same time frame, just expressed differently. How ludicrous! Some of the time frames do have the same starting date and others have the same ending date. It takes holy spirit to discern how it all fits together and the Witchtower has none. They have absolutely no clue whatsoever about what those time frames really are.

              The two times that a ‘day for a year’ prophesy were used by the Almighty always mentioned that expression ‘a day for a year’ within the prophesy. This way, everyone would understand to take the prophetic ‘days’ as literal ‘years’. The Israelite spied the promised land for 40 days and the days of Ezekiel’s prophesying were for 390 days and for 40 days. Everyone can then correctly calculate YAH’s prophetic timeline in terms of years rather than days. (Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5,6)

              I also corrected the false beliefs that I picked up from the Witchtower about about the ‘7 times’ and the ‘appointed times of the nations’. I posted the correction to Bklyn Kevin’s comment, which you can read at https://disqus.com/by/kevinb1914/

    • youre kidding yourself. like you said, “it’s really not that hard of a concept”.

      Apostles – tell us when will these things be?

      Jesus – just count 7 times and you’ll get 1914, thats when.

      nope

      nobody knows the day or hour of his thief-like presence. nobody.

      the watchtower first said 1874 then changed it to 1914, for obvious reasions, long after 1914, in the late 1930s early 1940s if im not mistaken.

      • Cate

        Thank you for welcoming me 🙂

        I just meant the day for a year thing didn’t really make me pause… But I don’t know what to say. I’m sorry.

        I didn’t talk about what Jesus said to his disciples…

        1914… I don’t know what to think. I’m scared though. 2019. But I’m leaning more towards 2020. “Happy is he who arrives in expectation at the 1,335 days”
        Will you be in expectation then?

        • yeah, i know ya didnt. i was just using what Jesus didnt say for an example, for a quick responce. i still need to read through your really long comment carfully to get your thoughts. scripture says to be in expectation, but of what is the question. Jehovah’s people have the wrong idea what to expect. you seem to be thinking and using your thinking skills.

          1- https://e-watchman.com/seven-times-mean/

          2- https://e-watchman.com/the-seven-times-of-nebuchadnezzar/

          • Cate

            I’m sorry it got so long. I keep trying to comment, but it always gets too long, so I just delete it because I forget what point I’m trying to make.

            Thinking skills are very important. It’s not just prayer and bible reading, those are the tools we are given to search for Jehovah. To understand his reasons why and what his ineffable plan is.

            “God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won’t tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.” -Good Omens, Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman

            • not too long for me, i just out of brain power to concentrate on the topic at the moment but you gave me something to look at later. hope the bigger brains here can reply on it with you. ha …but you deleted it hum

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Hello Cate and welcome to the web site glad to have you with us.

      I have read your notes, and I’m afraid I have to disagree with you concerning your conclusion be cause quite frankly Jesus clearly said he doesn’t know that day or hour nor does the angels in heaven but only Jehovah knows.

      So the bottom line is If Jesus doesn’t know that day or hour nor do the angels but only Jehovah how would it be possible for you to know? Unless you are Jehovah himself.

      However all though it is possible to discern the events that will take place during that hour it would still be impossible to pinpoint that exact day in which it would start because only Jehovah knows the day and hour as well as chooses it.

      Mark 13:32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.
      Acts 1:7 Acts 1:7
      7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

      • also “Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.” – 1-Thess 1:1-2

  • Shelley.

    The 144,000 are to rule with Jesus for 1000 years.None of them are in heaven with Jesus yet. So if Jesus began ruling in 1914 the anointed only rule with him 898 years minus a year for each year the system continues. I am not the brightest bulb in the pack as far as bible understanding goes but I have only been studying for less than a year, but there is defininately something wrong with this picture.

    • lol i said something close to that too. thats a good point ha

  • Shelley.

    A question for Brother King.How is it that a disciplinary board of 3 lowly elders can dis fellowship an anointed brother? I’ve been told that my very life depends on how we treat and respect the anointed and that they are all equal.Why is it that only the GB are directed by Jehovahs Holy Spirit in all upstanding? ( 2/3 vote rule)Why is it that the GB can even question your understanding of the deeper things ? We are instructed not to treat anointed brothers and sisters in the congregation any different than the rank and file JWs.Yet if the CO and his wife visit everyone lines up to talk to them. I can only imagine what they would be like if GB member showed up. There are 15,000 plus anointed ones ( but some of them have mental problems,lol) but only 7 run the show and the remaining 14,993 have no insight worth sharing.This really does not make any sense to me. I was told if I question any thing the GB says I would be boarding apostasy. This really troubles me because I feel like in order to be a JW I have to commit idolatry ( love ,honor,and obey the GB)and if I don’t I will be disfellowshipped.

    • Darren Wilks

      Easily, just ask Caiaphas.. he sentenced Jesus to death

  • Andres Felipe

    Puedo hacer una pregunta sin que mi hermano robert u otros se enojen? Desde que leo al hermano robert tengo que decir que me parece muy razonable todos sus comentarios y creo que esa es la dirección correcta. Pero me surge esta pregunta: si la revelación del conocimiento proféticos es futura, es decir, en el tiempo del fin, porque nosotros tenemos ese conocimiento especial hoy ,gracias a los escritos del hermano robert? Lo pregunto con todo el cariño y respeto por uste hermano robert pues creo en lo que ha escrito.

    • Darren Wilks

      Hermano, yo creo que significa que estamos obteniendo muy cerca del tiempo del fin. Hermano Robert es muy humilde y ha dicho en muchas ocasiones que este sitio no tendrá mucho efecto. No estoy de acuerdo sin embargo. Siento Jehová lo está utilizando de una manera grande, y es probable que permitirá a miles vuelvan a veces de Jehová antes del final.

      • Andres Felipe

        Muchas gracias d hermano darren por su comentario.estoy de acuerdo con uste…el hermano robert es una persona muy especial para jehova …Él lo utiliza en estoy últimos días. ..que jehova lo siga bendiciendo pues nos ha beneficiado a muchos dentro de su pueblo.

  • 如果有一天,我潇洒死去,请记得,我来过这里!

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    The Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is heading for a breakdown will not an easy to digest news for all JWS.

  • yep, which is why, until the time of the end, all anyone can do at this point is play with the numbers untill Jehovah reveals it. that is why the “stupid prophets” at Bethal are not telling the truth. which is apparent because they claim Jesus returned in 1874 then in 1941 changed their minds that it was 1914 when the whole point of Jesus return is to meet with him. how can any anointed mistake meeting with Jesus? and thats why they come up with their multiple invisibe presence nonsense.

    The Unfinished Mystery of God – https://e-watchman.com/unfinished-mystery-god/ – “Considter, for starters, the fact that in 1914 the International Bible Students were laboring under the impression that the presence of Christ had begun in 1874. It was not until 1941 that the Watchtower Society adjusted the date. But if Christ really returned in 1914 and the sacred secret of God was then complete would it not be reasonable to expect that God’s servants would have been enlightened as to his presence when it first began and not a few decades later?”

  • those are time frames within the GT not outside the realm of Jehovah’s day. do you understand this?

  • I think it’s time some people realize that they may have stumbled upon the wrong site for them.

    Being a dedicated Jehovah’s Witness since 1977, e-Watchman is devoted to adding prophetic insights into the difficult issues of faith facing the Watchtower Society and all of Jehovah’s Witnesses, especially going forward.

    As an anointed follower of Christ Jesus, (since 1996) e-Watchman also endeavors to follow the pattern of original biblical watchmen of old, in announcing the coming judgment of Jehovah upon the house of God. To that end this site, and associated sites, contain over 1,000 printed pages, offering in-depth interpretive commentary on numerous Bible prophecies, including Ezekiel, Habakkuk, Joel, Micah, Zephaniah, Amos, Daniel, Isaiah, Hosea, Lamentations and Revelation.

    • Cate

      Do you think I have stumbled across the wrong site? I’ve been having a really hard time since 2013, which is when I first started trying to go back. I left in 2009 because I stopped believing in God. I didn’t feel any live in the congregation, and during meetings I would always wind up in the bathroom crying because what they said from the podium about the love wasn’t true, about how Jehovah wouldn’t let you be tested beyond what you can bear. I was baptized in 2004 when I was 14. I’ve been praying and searching the scriptures, trying to prove it to myself again. And I’ve felt God in my life. I’ve felt my prayers have been answered for the first time. But I’m still disfellowshipped because I can’t quit smoking. And so many weird things have been happening… I’m pretty sure the things that have happened, the things that have been going through my head, that I might be annointed but I can’t be because I’m DFed. And I can’t quit smoking. Maybe tomorrow I will finally be able to stop. I keep trying, and praying, everyday it seems like for the past month… Or more. I’m looking for answers and help. And it’s so hard to disagree with what the org. says, and I still have love in my heart for them. I was just looking for help. Because the elders don’t want to talk to me. And I can’t talk to anyone else.

      • Sam

        You’re definitely in the right place Cate. I will keep you in my prayers, its awful when we get to feeling as Paul said “miserable man(or woman) that I am, who will rescue me from this body undergoing death?” but remember what he said after that. He thanked Jehovah for being the way out. I think Joseph was mostly referring to that other lug head.

      • 1914for100Alex

        I don’t think it’s any accident that any of us are here. From the sounds of it, we come from all sorts of backgrounds. Not just the kind the WT society would approve of. Don’t let getting df’d get you down too much. Had I stayed in I’d have you beat a hundred times over 🙂

        • Cate

          Oh, I’m really not too sure about that. Sex, drugs and rock and roll! “Did you ask this coma kid, of all the things I never said I never did” Thats funny because I have been in a coma. But Kurt Vonnegut is right, “The music will always be wonderful.” Except the new songbook, which disappoints me almost every time I hear a song and try to sing it. The old one was so much better. I miss it.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        You’re definitely in the right place.

        For sure Jehovah is using brother Robert to gather the lost sheep like yourself because Jehovah really does care for you.

        Ezekiel 34:
        11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am, and I myself will search for my sheep, and I will care for them.

        Ezekiel 34:
        16 “The lost one I will search for, the stray I will bring back, the injured I will bandage, and the weak I will strengthen; but the fat one and the strong one I will annihilate. I will feed that one with judgment.”

        Luke 19:
        10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.

        Matthew 18:12,
        12 “What do you think? If a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays, will he not leave the 99 on the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?
        13 And if he finds it, I certainly tell you, he rejoices more over it than over the 99 that have not strayed.

        • 1914for100Alex

          When I first started coming back here regularly I couldn’t understand exactly what was happening. I knew that “something” guided me here, but I couldn’t understand why. I was actually starting to wonder if I was somehow “special” that I was finding this information lol. It didn’t take long before I came across the scriptures posted above (and most likely by you Kevin!) and I realized what was going on. You guys that post relevant scripture have no idea how helpful that is because I can’t remember a fraction of what I used to know! Keep it up, and thank you!

          • Bklyn Kevin

            1 Thessalonians 2:
            13 Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.

            Hebrews 4:
            12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.

            Ephesians 6:
            17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,

            Hebrews 4:
            14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Throw your burden on Jehovah, And he will sustain you. Never will he allow the righteous one to fall. Psalms 55:22

        1 Peter 5:
        6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time,
        7 while you throw all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you..

        Psalm 37:5
        Commit your way to Jehovah; Rely on him, and he will act in your behalf.

      • Cate,
        You didn’t stumble across this site, it was Jehovah’s holy Spirit that brought you !! I to would whale and ache and cry out after leaving the meetings sometimes. It’s a battle for all of us, feeling worthy of Jehovah’s precious love and kindness.
        Welcome to the banquet, don’t eat to fast, you might get indigestion ?.

        The eyes of Jehovah are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him.—2 Chron. 16:9.

        Much love ?
        Joseph https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7dcd0c6600bd967eb30328a3209733e2fb1836a86f4f5f6cb2a74398793306fa.jpg

        • Cate

          Jehovah’s Holy Spirit brought me here, that is a nice way to see it. Here I am feeling bad for looking for apostate sites, just to find out what they sat. Most of it is sheer nonsense. I stumbled across this page by googling the “disgusting thing that causes desolation” Silly me, if I wanted to find what Christendom thinks I should have their translation, the “abomination of desolation”

          Don’t eat too fast? I think I already have. And it’s my head that has indigestion.

          Thank you for being kind.

          • Bklyn Kevin

            John 6:
            44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him,
            65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Amen to that.

      • this isnt the wrong site for anyone. some are the wrong person for the truth

        • Burt Reynolds

          True.

      • Darren Wilks

        Cate, Welcome.. please feel at rest and rely on Jehovah. He has not left you, not for one second!

      • Darren Wilks
      • Darren Wilks

        Concentrate on Jehovah and his will for you. Focus on it. Stop thinking about yourself for a moment. The smoking disfellowshipping started in the 70’s. How many annointed smoked prior to that? Just sayin’. Love…real Love.. conquerors all.

      • Alexandra Bogolin Bautista

        My heart really goes out to you. I feel your pain. Sadly, the elders are not equipped to help “people like you.” (us!) While there are some ok articles on addiction, once you’re baptized you really aren’t allowed to be an addict and repentant at the same time. I’m praying for you today to be able to lean on Jehovah rather than smoke. You are incredibly intelligent and I think your brain seeks relief in unhealthy ways to cope with discomfort. And it certainly doesn’t help that you’re not allowed to associate with people. Solitary confinement is cruel….BUT now you have all of us! PM me you want to talk….I can help you with some practical exercises in dealing with addiction. (YouTube EFT for smoking for starters)
        Re the elders….they really can’t help you with the 607/1914 stuff….so “play dumb” with them at your next meeting. Think of King David acting crazy to get out of a jam.
        One day at a time and you’ll kick the smoking habit! Carrot sticks, gum, good people, and prayer!

        • Cate

          Thank you so much! Oh, and I’ve been doing so much better today. I believe that others praying for me has helped, along with my own prayers. I don’t feel like I need it. I’m determined to make this my day 1 of being a non-smoker!

      • Burt Reynolds

        Fear not! I was addicted to smoking for a long time when I was in the congregation. This was in 1970. On a practical note, try using nicotine chewing gum. Yes it will upset your stomach but probably not too much and it works. One or two of those gums will blow your head off and you won’t need to smoke. I was addicted to the gum for three years but my body healed and eventually, I interspersed the nicotine gum with chewing gum…something my American brothers will be familiar with!!! Then quit the gum. I’m free. You will beat the habit. The patches tend to give people nightmares and besides, you don’t want a constant flow of nicotine when you are trying to come off it. But whatever works for you. One thing you don’t want is to wake up with blood on your pillow, which is too late.. Quit now. Secondly, this is the right site for those that love their brothers and Jehovah. I wouldn’t be here if it was the same old slogging away at the brothers. I have made it plain on other sites that they should not despise the brothers but unbelievably, though they were once JWs themselves, they curse those still asleep. There is no love left in them. Don’t worry about being anointed or not. Don’t worry about wrestling with Jehovah, he loves you and brought you here. All will become clear soon. It took me a whole day! Read the good words here on this site and keep checking with the scriptures. Peace and assuredness will find you. Keep going.

        • Darren Wilks

          Nicotine gum helped me too with prayer. I finally quit even the gum a year ago.

          • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

            I greatly respect you brother that you quit smoking and it is nice thing to hear that you quit even the Nicotine gum a year ago, that is fine keep it up. May Jehovah bless you through Jesus.

            • Darren Wilks

              Thank you brother Basavaraj!

          • Beverly kenyon

            Hiya Darren, I’m with Basavaraj there in saying that you did really good packing in smoking. That’s an amazing achievement! Also wanted to say how absolutely kind, patient and long suffering you was in reasoning with Chas Longue. Those exchanges with that person was epic!!! Didn’t like how he got a bit mean and personal but people who lose the argument generally do retaliate like that. He was referring to your beliefs like it was an insult, which I found strange seeing that you are a Jehovah’s Witness like you didn’t know that already! Weird!

            • Darren Wilks

              Beverly, Thank you so much for your kind comments! I pray that Jehovah’s spirit comfort you in any tribulation you many have. Your comment helped me get through the day and I have faith that whatever Jehovah pleases will come to pass!

          • Burt Reynolds

            Mmmmmm prayer flavour gum! Works for me!

        • im not addicted to gambling. im addicted to sitting in a semi-circle

      • Volcanic

        Another poor lost little lamb has found her way into the fold! Relax & make yourself at home, sweetheart, you are in a great place. It wasn’t just an accident that you found yourself here.

        I have been here just 3 weeks & I have never felt such tranquility & peace in my heart for a long time. I trawled through what finally turned out to be apostate sites for ages & was horrified when I realised that that wasn’t what I was searching for, I was actually searching for Jehovah Himself when someone from here left me a ‘note’ pointing me to this site. Since then I have read so much from here every day & I am convinced I am in the right place.
        You are so young to be so unhappy, just forget all the worries you had & start reading, you will start to feel more comfortable when you realise that Bro Robert speaks truth & that you won’t be ‘victimised’ for your thoughts. Don’t tear yourself to bits, just join in with us, you will be fine. Much love/agape/philea & welcome:)

    • Burt Reynolds

      I love your insight Joseph. Yes this is the right site for those that can still love the provisions of Jehovah and love his people, AND have the insight to see the Jehovah’s ways that they should recognise his organisation. How difficult it is going to be for those that cannot see that for themselves but will have to be shown it by the destruction of the watchtower. Let’s hope that cate can find brothers and sisters to talk to on this site and make the truth her own. Keep speaking righteousness the way you do. It’s so reassuring.

  • Bklyn Kevin

    User blocking is now available on Disqus. Learn more> https://blog.disqus.com/user-blocking-is-now-available-on-disqus?

    • Great feature, used it a few times now?

      • Burt Reynolds

        I don’t think I could do that really. Did Christ? I suppose there is an ultimate event, but sometimes it takes, I have seen, a lot of time for people to calm down on finding this site and they may not be eloquent in what they say or mean….and have to get a lot of bile out of their system. Have we not seen this of late? Let us be merciful as Jehovah is merciful until the appointed time. Also, we are all of different character and we should be patient and have insight as love is long suffering. As for the others who’s motive may be evil, I wonder if I have insight enough into the scriptures to make such a decision . Maybe that should be left to those that do, or to the owner of this site who puts his life on the line to speak truth and to treat the flock with tenderness lest they be stumbled.

        • I can spot evil haters a mile away, blocking someone doesn’t mean that they lose access to the food.. just keeps me from seeing their vomit. When Robert decides enough is enough they lose access altogether.
          Plus I’ve gone back and unblocked to see if any progress was attained.

          • Burt Reynolds

            ??

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