Jehovah’s Witnesses watchman Forums Watchman Forum The New Covenant – Solved!

Viewing 5 posts - 1 through 5 (of 5 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • LondonerLondoner
    Participant
    Post count: 7
    #39010 |

    Hi All

    As Jehovah’s Witnesses and all Christian denominations have got this wrong over the centuries, we have been labouring over multiple interpretations of this crucial doctrine. But a truthful and accurate understanding of the New Covenant reveals massive implications regarding who is in it, who are God’s chosen people, who the 144k are and who Jesus died for. Please read my essay (PDF) at the link here:

    0
    LondonerLondoner
    Participant
    Post count: 7

    Hi All

    As Jehovah’s Witnesses and all Christian denominations have got this wrong over the centuries, we have been labouring over multiple interpretations of this crucial doctrine. But a truthful and accurate understanding of the New Covenant reveals massive implications regarding who is in it, who are God’s chosen people, who the 144k are and who Jesus died for. Please read my essay (PDF) at the link here:

    https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/a74b8a55-d069-44b8-a953-067d05b1e28f

    0
    SongofHannahSongofHannah
    Keymaster
    Post count: 55

    I read over your paper. In it, you seem to make the argument that only fleshly Jews are partakers of the heavenly calling. However, I believe there are many scriptures that you might not have not taken into consideration.

    At the time of Jesus, what remained of the 10 tribe kingdom of Israel were known as the Samaritans. As you quoted yourself:

    Matt 10:5-6
    These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    So the Bible differentiates between 1) the lost sheep of Israel, 2) the Samaritans, and 3) the people of the nations (Greek “Ethnos”).

    Thus, when Paul was trying to explain to the Christians about the heavenly hope, if he had meant the Samaritans, he certainly would have said so. As it would have been extremely confusing for him to use the word “ethnos”, which means people of other races besides Jews.

    But Paul makes it very clear the new covenant included people of the nations when he also includes the Greeks in the promise, as being part of Abrahams offspring.

    Gal 3:26-29
    “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

    In fact, Paul often uses Greeks interchangeably with the Nations, as you can see from the following scriptures.

    Romans 10:12
    “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him.”

    1 Cor 12:12-13
    “For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”

    Romans 1:13-16
    “But I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that many times I have intended to come to you—but I have been prevented until now—in order that I might acquire some fruitage also among you just as among the rest of the nations. 14 Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to senseless ones, I am a debtor; 15 so I am eager to declare the good news also to you there in Rome 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

    Romans 2: 9-11
    “There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.”

    Also, the Samaritans practiced circumcision, but in Ephesians Paul clearly identifies people of the nations with those who did not:

    Eph 2:11-13
    Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ.”

    Also, in verse 19 he conclusively identifies these uncircumcised as members of the household of God:

    “So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God.”

    Also Titus, who Paul included as an “heir” was an uncircumcised Greek:

    Gal 2:3
    “Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek.”

    Tits 3:6
    “He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that after being declared righteous through the undeserved kindness of that one, we might become heirs according to a hope of everlasting life.”

    And to top it all off, at Colossians 3, Paul conclusively shows that God’s chosen ones can come from any nationality or the race:

    Col 3:10-12
    “And clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythʹi·an, slave, or freeman; but Christ is all things and in all. 12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience.”

    Hi All

    As Jehovah’s Witnesses and all Christian denominations have got this wrong over the centuries, we have been labouring over multiple interpretations of this crucial doctrine. But a truthful and accurate understanding of the New Covenant reveals massive implications regarding who is in it, who are God’s chosen people, who the 144k are and who Jesus died for. Please read my essay (PDF) at the link here:

    https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/a74b8a55-d069-44b8-a953-067d05b1e28f

    1+
    LondonerLondoner
    Participant
    Post count: 7

    I read over your paper. In it, you seem to make the argument that only fleshly Jews are partakers of the heavenly calling. However, I believe there are many scriptures that you might not have not taken into consideration.

    At the time of Jesus, what remained of the 10 tribe kingdom of Israel were known as the Samaritans. As you quoted yourself:
    ——————
    Me: The descendants of the 10 tribe kingdom had been scattered among the nations, as God said He would.
    ——————
    Matt 10:5-6
    These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
    ————————————
    Me: Jesus gave Peter three keys to use to reach out to those who were in the Law Covenant (LC) with God. 1. The Jews in Jerusalem/Judah, 2. The Samaritans, (half Jewish) 3. People of the nations (10-tribe descendants).
    —————————-
    So the Bible differentiates between 1) the lost sheep of Israel, 2) the Samaritans, and 3) the people of the nations (Greek “Ethnos”).

    Thus, when Paul was trying to explain to the Christians about the heavenly hope, if he had meant the Samaritans, he certainly would have said so. As it would have been extremely confusing for him to use the word “ethnos”, which means people of other races besides Jews.

    But Paul makes it very clear the new covenant included people of the nations when he also includes the Greeks in the promise, as being part of Abrahams offspring.
    ———————-
    Me: The people of the nations are also Jews. That’s the point I was making in the essay. The evidence is in the scriptures.
    —————————–
    Gal 3:26-29
    “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”
    ———————————
    Me: You have to take into consideration who the Galatians were. They were descendants of the 10-tribe kingdom who were worldly, and not observing the Law until they became Christians. As you know, the Jews were under domination of the Greek empire, which is why there were Greek speaking Jews. It is these Greek speaking Jews Paul was referring to when he said the above what you quoted.

    Here is proof the Galatians were Jewish descendants: Gal 3:13,14 –

    Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.

    The ones released by the curse of the Law, were the Jews. They only were in the Law Covenant (LC). If they became Christians, then they are Abraham’s offspring through faith, rather than being just fleshly Jews as with the LC. They will inherit the promises made to Abraham’s descendants.
    ——————————————

    In fact, Paul often uses Greeks interchangeably with the Nations, as you can see from the following scriptures.

    Romans 10:12
    “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him.”
    ———————-
    Me: See the above reply.
    ———————-
    1 Cor 12:12-13
    “For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”
    ————————–
    Me: Again, you have to take into account who the Corinthians were. They were descendants of the 10-tribe kingdom who were worldly, and not observing the Law until they became Christians.

    I Cor 10:1-5 –

    Now I do not want YOU to be ignorant, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ. 5 Nevertheless, on most of them God did not express his approval, for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    Yes, Paul addresses his readers as “brothers”, or fellow Israelites, and that “our forefathers”, the ones he had in common with them, “were baptised into Moses”. Only the Israelites were baptised into Moses.
    ——————————————-
    Romans 1:13-16
    “But I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that many times I have intended to come to you—but I have been prevented until now—in order that I might acquire some fruitage also among you just as among the rest of the nations. 14 Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to senseless ones, I am a debtor; 15 so I am eager to declare the good news also to you there in Rome 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

    Romans 2: 9-11
    “There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.”
    ———————————-
    Me: Again, who were the Roman Christians?

    Rom 11: 1 –
    I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

    Paul begins by reminding his readers that God did not reject “his people”. That is, the Israelites, the ones he was writing to. We know it is the Jews because Paul brings up something his readers had in common with himself: “For I also am an Israelite”.
    ———————————–

    Also, the Samaritans practiced circumcision, but in Ephesians Paul clearly identifies people of the nations with those who did not:

    Eph 2:11-13
    Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ.”

    Also, in verse 19 he conclusively identifies these uncircumcised as members of the household of God:

    “So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God.”
    ——————————-
    Me: Who were the Ephesians? Paul’s letter described the famous “wall between” the Jews who were still in Jerusalem, and these people of the nations. Eph 2:11-18 –

    Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands— 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.

    The readers of Paul’s letter were formerly “people of the nations”, uncircumcised, and at that time “alienated from the state of Israel” and strangers to the covenants and the promises. The ancestors of these people of the nations were once part of the nation of Israel with all the covenants and promises that went with that for the faithful. But the blood of Christ merge the two peoples and destroyed the “wall” that fenced them off, that is, the Law. Yes, as prophesied by Ezekiel in chapter 37 mentioned in the essay, Jehovah said He would make the two nations of Israel – the two tribe and the ten tribe people (House of Judah and the House of Israel), into one.
    —————————————-

    Also Titus, who Paul included as an “heir” was an uncircumcised Greek:

    Gal 2:3
    “Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek.”
    —————————-
    Me: Please see previous reply regarding the Galatians.
    —————————–
    Tits 3:6
    “He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that after being declared righteous through the undeserved kindness of that one, we might become heirs according to a hope of everlasting life.”
    ————————————-
    Me: It is the Israelites who are heirs to the promises. Rom 9:3-5

    For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises; 5 to whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen.
    ———————————-
    And to top it all off, at Colossians 3, Paul conclusively shows that God’s chosen ones can come from any nationality or the race:

    Col 3:10-12
    “And clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythʹi·an, slave, or freeman; but Christ is all things and in all. 12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience.”
    ————————————–
    Me: Again, the Colossians were Jews. There were Jews speaking Greek, Scythian and other languages the descendants of the 10 tribe kingdom spoke in whatever nation they settled in. Here is scriptural proof the Colossians were Jews:

    These Gentiles had something in common with Paul. Chapter 2:13, 14 –

    Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

    Yes, these Gentiles had in common with Paul, of being under the Law, which they could not keep perfectly, but which was nailed to the torture stake. These Gentiles were Jewish Christians!

    Londoner

    0
    StudyPartnerStudyPartner
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    @londoner

    I applaud your depth of study, and your desire to seek truth! We should all be at least as studious as you are! I beg you please, pray for guidance by holy spirit before you meditate on the below facts…

    I understand where you are coming from on the ideas of the Israelites “scattered about” James 1:1 mentions, and obviously you consider Jesus’ words at Matt. 5 to be suggesting the same idea; so really the question is “Are there any scriptures to prove that the “…children of God…” that Caiaphas prophesied about at John 11:49-52 are ONLY Jews?” While I believe @SongofHannah gave you plenty, you did not accept any of those, so I submit to you 1 concept and two more scriptural references that should be irrefutable, IF you let the spirit lead you. (The 3rd and 4th references are your own, just read further.)

    Since the formation of the Israelite nation and the exodus from Egypt there have been two kinds of Jews, Fleshly and Spiritual. The “Fleshly” Jews were born into it, you were a Jew until you died; in other words it is not possible for a Jew to become a Gentile. The Spiritual Jews (Gentiles who became proselytes and were called “alien-residents”) were those who chose to live as a Fleshly Jew, but didn’t have the blood, didn’t have a “tribe”, and also by Law from Jehovah, didn’t have a land-inheritance (but later Jehovah changed this). The entire tribe of Levi was set aside for Priesthood, out of the 12 tribes. The rest of the nation was to be holy, but could not be priests. Fast forward to after Jesus says “…your house is abandoned to you!…” and he says to the “little flock” (all faithful Jews) ‘I am going to bring in ones from outside to fill out your numbers, and they will all be under Me as the shepherd…’ Spiritual Israel was being formed, and it would need the same two parts, the priesthood (144,000 first-fruits of wheat harvest) and the holy nation (great crowd-all of the wheat harvest) it is bought out of. Jesus made this clear when He made with His disciples the Covenant for a Kingdom on His final night; He said ‘…you will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel…’

    I am glad you referenced the 3rd Key given to Peter because the way he uses that Key is the first scriptural reference. You stated that his use of the 3rd Key was to go to the Jews scattered among the nations, but I would ask you to re-read Acts 10 and see if you still believe that. I know you are enough of a Beroean to know that Cornelius was a Roman, NOT a Jew, and of course his entire family would be Roman as well, NOT displaced Jews. The fact that there is NO SPECIFICATION of who will and won’t, or who can or can’t go to heaven is proven by Paul not being sure if he was going there, his stating that people should not partake wrongfully, his references to some of those congregations of their doing things for “the Holy Ones”, and the explanation he gives at Eph. 3:5-6 which makes an extremely clear reference to the whole point of the “sacred secret”, that being ‘the TRUTH of the makeup of Spiritual Israel’. Notice here Paul specifically used the term “joint heirs” in reference to those of the nations; if he were referring to natural Jews, lost or otherwise, they would always just be “heirs”, rightfully by blood, never needing to be called “joint heirs”.

    I am glad you referenced Romans 9:3-5, though if you would have just read through vs. 8 you would have completed the picture; Paul here answers the question raised by what Caiaphas said! Ro. 9:8-That is, the children in the flesh are NOT really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. (Caps mine) This promise of course refers all the way back to Genesis and “The Seed”, and the cross reference also points to Isa. 54:1 which mentions the ‘more numerous’ ones born to the barren woman, those ones of course would be all of us that are NOT natural Jews.

    Finally I would admonish you to go back to another scripture you referenced, Romans 11:1, and I would entreat you to please read the rest of the chapter. Using the illustration of the Olive tree and grafting, Paul makes very clear the difference with natural olive branches and wild olive branches, and this reference can’t be talking about Local Faithful Jews vs. Scattered Non-Faithful Jews because he specifically compares the natural ones that were cut off (scattered) and their grafting being DIFFERENT than the grafting of wild ones (gentiles).

    I pray you have peace and joy in your further studies with your newfound depth of understanding! Keep digging for hid treasures!

    1+
Viewing 5 posts - 1 through 5 (of 5 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.