Jehovah’s Witnesses watchman Forums Watchman Forum Speculation: Armageddon happens sometime before the overlapping generation dies

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  • Ken_RosenbergKen_Rosenberg
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    #38466 |

    For those of you who are not too familiar with the Generational Leap hoax. Essentially, anyone who’s life crossed over with an anointed that was alive in 1914, is considered to be part of the generation of 1914, so that generation of 1914, can last about 160 years.

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    If the lie of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the 1914 doctrine; Jesus must manifest himself while the doctrine is still active, lets assume another 70 years pass by, by that time, the 1914 doctrine would have been proved false to all JWs, and they would no longer believe the lie because with time, the doctrine manifested itself into nothing. Hence, Jesus will only reveal himself while his people are still believing the lie.

    tl;dr: The Parousia will happen before the overlapping generation dies off, this will be the ultimate test of faith, as Jehovah will judge those who take pleasure in unrighteousness(believing Armageddon is here because the GB predicted it).

    I thought as long as the Governing Body kept predicting the end of the world, they would only jinx themselves. But I don’t believe that anymore.

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    Post count: 11

    Actually, there are two fulfillments to the “generation” reference:

    1. One is a generation of 80 years from the first sign, which is a world war, WWI until the second coming, that is during the generation of 1914-1994.

    2. The second fulfillment has to do with what Christ said at Matthew 16:28 “”Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Turns out there were two groups back in Christ’s day. Those who would die and be resurrected at Christ’s return, and another smaller select group who would never die until he returned. Among those chosen not to die was the apostle John, Jesus’ mother, Mary, and the Apostle Paul. So in a strict and technical sense, Christ was repeating himself by saying some from his own generation would still be alive when he returned, even though that would be over 1900 years later.

    So either application works and both are applicable. Now most do not hae enough faith to accept the latter. But you have only two choices. Either Christ returned before that normal generation of his day died out, or some from his generation would never die until he returned over 1900 years later. Several scriptures support the latter. For instance when Peter asked what Jesus would do to John? Jesus had just told Peter how he would die and thus told him he would be in the group that would die. Peter was basically asking which group John would be in? The living group or the resurrection group?

    John 21: “20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

    22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

    This was not about whether or not some would die and some would live until he came, but only whether or not John would be in the group that would not die, which was none of Peter’s concern. But this clearly establishes two gorups here; one that would die of old age and die out and need to be resurrected and one group that would never die.

    In the meantime, Peter includes himself in the “living” who would SURVIVE down to the Lord’s day at 1 Thess. 4:

    15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE,who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    So when Jesus in one place says some standing with him, including John, would not see death until he returned and later in the same book that “this generation” would not pass away until he comes, he was expressing the same thing; that some from his generation would live down to modern times!!

    This means whether or not we see a second application of 80 years from the first sign of a world war until the second coming is also implied doesn’t matter. If it works out that that occurs, then great, but it is not necessary to fulfill the prophecy in the context of some still being alive from the 1st Century until Christ returns, including John and Paul, obviously, but also Mary.

    But just some trivia as we wonder how a group of peole remain undetected as they lived down through the centuries. I’ve met Mary personally and she had an adult son. So it’s possible as they moved from place to place, every 100 years or so they re-youthened! That is, they would move to one place as young people, have kids if they wanted, get old and then move away to a new place before dying, but when they got to the new place, they had a new identity and were young again.

    If we are to imply Jesus limited the second coming to occurring prior to 1994, then the second coming has already taken place. Either way the prophecy would work and JWs are clueless as to the correct understanding.

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    WAS CHRIST TO RETURN PRIOR TO 1994?

    If we interpret Christ’s words that “this generation” would not pass away until he returned, meaning when the second coming would occur, and that “this generation” was defined by the very first sign, which was a world war (“kingdom vs. kingdom, nation vs. nation), then one interpretation is that Christ’s second coming would occur prior to 1994.

    There is no conflict with that interpretation when it comes to Bible chronology in relation to the “7 times” prophecy. This is the prophecy interpreted by Jehovah’s witnesses to introduce a period of 2520 years from the time of the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. JWs have concluded the most reliable date for the fall of Jerusalem was 607 BCE and so they date the second coming in 1914. Secular records point to 587 BCE as year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar II which points to 1934 as the date of the second coming when that prophecy is applied to 587 BCE. However, the Bible indicates that Christ would not arrive until after the “great tribulatoin” occurs nor until the State of Israel was set up. “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days….the sign of the son of man would appear.” That great tribulation, of course, was the Holocaust, followed by the Jews coming out of exile on November 30, 1947. So dating the fall of Jerusalem in either 607 BCE or 587 BCE wouldn’t work anyway.

    Matthew says he is “near at the doors” when the fig tree starts to grow tender. Generally, the fig tree is thought to be symbolic of the State of Israel. So the “sign of the son of man” was to appear AFTER the tribulation and after the State of Israel is set up and thus after 1948. But as far as Bible chronology is concerned, the secularists are full of lies anyway. The Persians added extra years to the Persian Period and it became the official history. They added 30 extra years to the reigns of Darius I and Artaxerxes II and tried to claim a separate 21-year rule for Xerxes who was the same king as Artaxerxes I. So that is an extra 81 years of fake history right there that was never removed by the Jews or the Catholics from the timeline. So the true date for the 1st of Cyrus follows Bible prophecy for the “70 weeks” and occurs in 455 BCE. In that case, the 70 years of exile begins 70 years earlier in 525 BCE, which is the year of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. Based on that, the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar II would date the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE. If that is to be taken as the true original date for the fall of Jerusalem, then the second coming would occur in 1992:

    2520 – 607 = 1913 + 1 = 1914
    2520 – 529 = 1991 + 1 = 1992

    Of course, 1992 is still earlier than 1994, when the 80-year regeneration from 1914-1994 runs out.

    What is also wrong about how JWs look at the last generation is that they think Armageddon is supposed to come within that generation of 1914-1994, rather than just the second coming. Armageddon does not occur when the second coming occurs, but sometime afterward. So part of the confusion is claiming the second coming occurred in 1914 and so it makes a generation of events negligible as far as the second coming, and thus tend to point to when Christ comes to bring about Armageddon. So when Armageddon didn’t arrive, they keep extending the generation the best way they can. When in reality, Christ returned in 1992 to fulfill the prophecy about the second coming occurring before 1994.

    At any rate, as complicated as it is, the Bible’s prophecy about the “last generation” is true when correctly understood, which is not the area of reality for JWs at this time.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
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    Post count: 17

    Something that confuses me is when the Bible, and indeed the Watchtower Society, says that the world’s armies will be gathered together to fight against Jehovah. What exactly will the world’s armies be fighting? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Angels?

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    Post count: 11

    Something that confuses me is when the Bible, and indeed the Watchtower Society, says that the world’s armies will be gathered together to fight against Jehovah. What exactly will the world’s armies be fighting? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Angels?

    Very good question. Turns out the “war” of Har-Mageddon is more a doctrinal conflict than a physical conflict. Recall how Christ is depicted as arriving on a white horse and he strikes the “nations” with the long sword of his mouth and he goes forward to conquer them. The Bible also speaks of Christ striking the nations with an iron rod. The long sword coming out of the mouth of Christ represents his teachings and exposing false teachings. He conquers the “nations” with that sword, meaning those who are in association with false prophets. But this is a battle of words and thus doctrine and Bible understanding, a battle of concepts and Biblical truth and not a physical war.

    When Christ arrives, he comes to separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the weeds, the good fish from the worthless fish, the wise virgins from the foolish virgins. The battle of Har-Mageddon is the culmination of that process. When the true sheep and the true wheat are separated from the goats and the false sheep. The confrontation occurs when Christ conquers the false teachings of the apostate “nations” and exposes those false teachings as well as the nations themselves as being spiritually apostate. Since the WTS is a central focus of Christ’s activities, key battles of doctrinal truth will be tween Christ and the false teachings of the WTS.

    The 666-beast coming out of the sea represents Christendom; the lamb-dragon beast that becomes the false prophet, represents the organization associated with the “earth,” meaning God’s temple and thus Jehovah’s Witnesses. After both have been conquered by Christ doctrinally, they are cast into the lake of fire “while still alive.” Technically, that is what is happening to Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia. They are being outlawed quite quickly. Babylon the Great is to suffer the same fate at the hands of the UN, so this might be the beginning of the end of organized religion in a globalist world run by the UN.

    But note Revelation 16 very specifically. The battle of Har-Mageddon takes place while the 666-beast and the false prophet are active. But it is after this battle that Babylon the Great is destroyed by the UN. Therefore, Har-Mageddon officially begins before BTG is destroyed by the UN and the battle of Har-Mageddon does not destroy the 666-beast and the false prophet, which are destroyed when Babylon the Great is destroyed by the UN.

    So one way to understand this is that the doctrinal battle of bible truth and interpretation will take place during Har-Mageddon, which will then lead into the final events of the destruction of Babylon the Great by the UN and eventually end of the political world powers. Thus the “nations” who fight with Christ are primarily a reference to the apostate witnesses and religious leaders teaching false doctrines that Christ exposes when he returns. He conquers them with his superior understanding of the Bible, represented by a sharp sword coming out of his mouth.

    There is also the issue of the specific references to the “sea” and to the “earth.” The earth is associated with God’s temple and thus the WTS. So when Rev. 16:14 speaks of the “kings of the entire inhabited EARTH” it may be a specific reference to the “kings” or rulers over the WTS. Thus the battle between Christ and the “kings of the earth” has a focus between Christ and the GB of JW. That’s the true focus of the battle of Har-mageddon. Christ exposing the WTS’ false teachings and conquering them and rejecting them. At the same time, the false teachings of Christendom are also exposed by Christ at a time prior to the destruction of Babylon the Great at the hands of the UN.

    So in the beginning, Har-Mageddon is almost a spiritual event, an academic event, a legal event or battle, not a physical one and thus not that obvious. It could be said to be a battle that is fought on paper and won on paper.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
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    Post count: 17

    Thank you so much for that vary helpful and interesting reply. The “Lake of Fire” concerns me as I know that is one of the scriptures that those who believe in Hell use to show of its existence. But am I right in thinking that “Lake of Fire” just refers to a total destruction, rather than a torment in flames for all eternity?

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    Post count: 11

    Thank you so much for that vary helpful and interesting reply. The “Lake of Fire” concerns me as I know that is one of the scriptures that those who believe in Hell use to show of its existence. But am I right in thinking that “Lake of Fire” just refers to a total destruction, rather than a torment in flames for all eternity?

    We know the lake of fire is symbolic because as Revelation 20 says, once the dead at the second resurrection come forth out of Hades (hell, man’s common grave) then death and Hades, two concepts, are also thrown into the lake of fire. Also Satan is cast into the lake of fire and thus destroyed, and it is specifically called the “second death” in relation to the final death of those who come back during the 2nd resurrection. Also, the false prophet and the 666-breast are cast into this symbolic lake of fire.

    So the lake of fire symbolizes final and absolute destruction. But you have to admit that sense it is also described as a place of torment throughout eternity it adds fuel to the concept of Hell or Hades being that place of torment.

    Even so, we must address the concept of eternal torment. I tend to relate to the saying “rest in peace.” in addition, there is a pop culture idea about ghosts being some humans who died but still have some unfinished business to do and thus they are not at “rest.” (I know, horrible example). But it relates to the moment of death, dying peacefully and peacefully letting go in a state of contentment or being forced to die and dying in a state of mental anguish and situational anguish.

    When a person is dead, they are not conscious of anything. But when those alive think of them, they may think of them as being at peace, their worries and concerns being over and them resting from their anxieties, even though they are not conscious. By contrast, Satan is not at rest. Those cast into the lake of fire were in anguish at the time of their deaths and when we reflect on them we reflect on them as being punished and in torment. So the torment is not literal but certainly conceptual. They are not “resting in peace” and fondly remembered. It is as if their last memory was in torment and so they are forever in a symbolic torment.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
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    Post count: 17

    When a person is dead, they are not conscious of anything.

    This is one of the reasonings that made me sit up and take notice of the JWs. My background is 20 years as a “born again, evangelical, happy-clappy” Christian. One of the things that I could not accept was that a loving God would create a place of torment for all eternity, simply because somebody did not accept His son. That is not loving. If any “punishment” for that was required then simple annihilation would be it (The thought of having no conscience or awareness for all eternity scares me more than burning for all eternity in a lake of fire. My mind just cannot comprehend having no awareness. It scares me to be honest).

    If, as my previous religion stated, people either went to Hell or heaven immediately upon death, than how is Ecclesiastes 9:5 explained, which clearly shows that there is no awareness in death.

    “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all…” (NWT 2K13)

    In fact I did prefer the wording of the 1984 NWT:

    “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all …” (NWT 1984)

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    When a person is dead, they are not conscious of anything.

    This is one of the reasonings that made me sit up and take notice of the JWs. My background is 20 years as a “born again, evangelical, happy-clappy” Christian. One of the things that I could not accept was that a loving God would create a place of torment for all eternity, simply because somebody did not accept His son. That is not loving. If any “punishment” for that was required then simple annihilation would be it (The thought of having no conscience or awareness for all eternity scares me more than burning for all eternity in a lake of fire. My mind just cannot comprehend having no awareness. It scares me to be honest).

    If, as my previous religion stated, people either went to Hell or heaven immediately upon death, than how is Ecclesiastes 9:5 explained, which clearly shows that there is no awareness in death.

    “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all…” (NWT 2K13)

    In fact I did prefer the wording of the 1984 NWT:

    “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all …” (NWT 1984)

    Again, the only way to harmonize this is to conclude that anything going on in Hades (i.e. the rich man and Lazarus) or in the lake of fire, is symbolic and not literal. But let’s just admit that the casual reading gives that impression. But does it support the idea people have that when they die they go either to heaven or hell as a place of torment?

    The answer to that is no. Why? For one reason, Judgment Day. Revelation describes a second resurrection where all the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous who are in Hades come to life to be judged. So we know the righteous are in Hades as well, which is why it is understood to be man’s common grave. The good go to Hades too. Then there is the issue if people die who are bad and they go to Hell to be tormented, then why are they coming back on Judgment Day? And when they do, they do not return to Hades, they are thrown into the lake of fire, the “second death.” So even if Hades was a place of torment, nobody is going to be there permanentl. Instead, Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing its complete destruction. The common grave is of no purpose after everyone is symbolically emptied out of it.

    At the same time, death can be understood as a bad thing in contrast to life. You may not be conscious while dead, but we understand if one asks not to leave my soul in the grave and that someone who is alive would consider the grave a place of horror and torment with respect to and comparison to being alive. So it could be said that the grave and ultimately Gehenna (the lake of fire) is a place of torment to someone who is alive who thinks about being there. It’s a horrible place and condition in contrast to being alive. That is, the condition os death itself is a place of torment in the mind of someone alive who might be facing going there. But the condition of death itself is not a place of consciousness. So I guess you could say it is a place of torment in the minds of the living who are aware they will die but the dead themselves know nothing. The concept of death is a horror to the living, even though we know once dead, we are unconscious. That’s as close as we will get to why the lake of fire is described as a place of eternal fire and torment, though it is a state of nonexistence.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
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    Post count: 17

    …But does it support the idea people have that when they die they go either to heaven or hell as a place of torment?

    The answer to that is no. Why? For one reason, Judgment Day…

    That was one of my arguments at my previous religion. I reasoned that if people went to Hell immediately on death, then surely they have been judged already, so why would there need to be a Judgement Day. Was God going to drag people up from Hell, where they may have already been for thousands of years, only to tel them, “Sorry pal, you’re going back down to Hell, just brought you up from there just to let you know.” It just didn’t make sense.

    Also, if there was an immediate Heaven or Hell, wouldn’t those that Jesus, and others, resurrected, have had information to share? If you were having a jolly old time in Heaven, wouldn’t you be annoyed if somebody resurrected you from the dead to come back down to this old system?

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    Post count: 11

    …But does it support the idea people have that when they die they go either to heaven or hell as a place of torment?

    The answer to that is no. Why? For one reason, Judgment Day…

    That was one of my arguments at my previous religion. I reasoned that if people went to Hell immediately on death, then surely they have been judged already, so why would there need to be a Judgement Day. Was God going to drag people up from Hell, where they may have already been for thousands of years, only to tel them, “Sorry pal, you’re going back down to Hell, just brought you up from there just to let you know.” It just didn’t make sense.

    Also, if there was an immediate Heaven or Hell, wouldn’t those that Jesus, and others, resurrected, have had information to share? If you were having a jolly old time in Heaven, wouldn’t you be annoyed if somebody resurrected you from the dead to come back down to this old system?

    LOL. You’ve got it! Again, remember that the second resurrection is of both the righteous and unrighteous. Thus many righteous people, even those already written in the “book of life” were in Hades or Hell. So hell, as JWs correctly understand is just mankind’s common grave, for everybody.

    But second is who goes up to heaven. NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE!!! That means nobody going to heaven is in heaven yet. Paul addresses the issue of who might end up going to heaven first. Those still alive when Christ returns or those who have died and must come back. Who goes to heaven first? Paul clearly indicates that one group does not precede the other but all of them “together” go to heaven…

    1 Thess 4:15-18 “For this is what we tell you by the Lord’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, TOGETHER with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”

    So nobody precedes anyone else to heaven!! All those chosen to go to heaven, whether 144,000 or 1,440,000 (Isa 6:13) will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye together at the same time and all transformed to spiritual glorious beings. So this is another JW misunderstanding, that somehow after 1914 if you were of the heavenly class and died faithful then you go up to heaven to be with Christ and are now waiting for the rest of the anointed to die and come up to heaven. Not at all. No one goes to heaven before anyone else.

    but this addresses the nature of the 1st resurrection. This is addressed at 1 Cor. 15 where it says: “46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.”

    Get it? The 1st resurrection has two phases; first back into a physical state, then later into a heavenly state. So just as 1 Thessalonians says the “dead rise first” then “afterward” they are all changed, the dead first come back in physical form to join the others still alive when Christ returns.
    Thing is, the resurrected who serve as king-priests with Christ for 1000 years don’t become spirit until after Judgment Day is over. So those of the 1st resurrection are in physical bodies for over 1000 years. They serve in physical bodies for 1000 years, then endure Satan’s final test of mankind. Then after Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire the era of Judgment Day begins. These serve as judges of all of mankind, including the 12 tribes of Israel, all who come back from the grave and are judged. Then when the last evil man is judged, then Death is cast into the lake of fire. It is when death is no more, which is after Judgment Day is over that “corruption puts on incorruption,” that is, that the holy ones become angels.

    1 Cor 15: “53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

    “Death is SWALLOWED UP forever.” How visual and poetic! Because death is cast into the lake of fire which literally “swallows up” death. So when is death swallowed up by the lake of fire? It is not until after Judgment Day. Judgment Day happens after Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire. Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire after the 1000-year reign of Christ. So those who have died who are set to go to heaven are back in physical bodies first before they get their spiritual bodies. But they are in their physical bodies for over 1000 years.

    Of course, it makes no sense the resurrected heavenly class are here on the earth serving as king priests for a thousand years are doing so while Christ is in heaven. They are not. For Christ himself must return in a physical body along with them. Thus 1 John 3 notes: “2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.”

    So just as those to be resurrected back into a physical body, likewise, Christ will also be in a physical body just like theirs and they will be able to see him just as he is.

    But let’s just jump back really quick and look at this! Doesn’t it make a whole lot of sense if Christ and 1,440,000 co-king-priests are going to rule for 1000 years over the earth that it makes sense they are right here on the earth to do that directly? Of course. Christ came here the first time for just 33.5 years. He was here in a physical body. Why wouldn’t he be here for a 1000+ years in person?

    This underscores how the WTS claims to be a “spiritual paradise” but they are actually a desolate spiritual wasteland who understands little about what the Bible really teaches.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
    Participant
    Post count: 17

    I have often wondered what happens to the anointed co-rulers once the 1000 years are up? Do they revert back down to paradise earth?

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    Ken_RosenbergKen_Rosenberg
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    Post count: 13

    Actually, there are two fulfillments to the “generation” reference:

    1. One is a generation of 80 years from the first sign, which is a world war, WWI until the second coming, that is during the generation of 1914-1994.

    2. The second fulfillment has to do with what Christ said at Matthew 16:28 “”Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Turns out there were two groups back in Christ’s day. Those who would die and be resurrected at Christ’s return, and another smaller select group who would never die until he returned. Among those chosen not to die was the apostle John, Jesus’ mother, Mary, and the Apostle Paul. So in a strict and technical sense, Christ was repeating himself by saying some from his own generation would still be alive when he returned, even though that would be over 1900 years later.

    So either application works and both are applicable. Now most do not hae enough faith to accept the latter. But you have only two choices. Either Christ returned before that normal generation of his day died out, or some from his generation would never die until he returned over 1900 years later. Several scriptures support the latter. For instance when Peter asked what Jesus would do to John? Jesus had just told Peter how he would die and thus told him he would be in the group that would die. Peter was basically asking which group John would be in? The living group or the resurrection group?

    John 21: “20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

    22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

    This was not about whether or not some would die and some would live until he came, but only whether or not John would be in the group that would not die, which was none of Peter’s concern. But this clearly establishes two gorups here; one that would die of old age and die out and need to be resurrected and one group that would never die.

    In the meantime, Peter includes himself in the “living” who would SURVIVE down to the Lord’s day at 1 Thess. 4:

    15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE,who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    So when Jesus in one place says some standing with him, including John, would not see death until he returned and later in the same book that “this generation” would not pass away until he comes, he was expressing the same thing; that some from his generation would live down to modern times!!

    This means whether or not we see a second application of 80 years from the first sign of a world war until the second coming is also implied doesn’t matter. If it works out that that occurs, then great, but it is not necessary to fulfill the prophecy in the context of some still being alive from the 1st Century until Christ returns, including John and Paul, obviously, but also Mary.

    But just some trivia as we wonder how a group of peole remain undetected as they lived down through the centuries. I’ve met Mary personally and she had an adult son. So it’s possible as they moved from place to place, every 100 years or so they re-youthened! That is, they would move to one place as young people, have kids if they wanted, get old and then move away to a new place before dying, but when they got to the new place, they had a new identity and were young again.

    If we are to imply Jesus limited the second coming to occurring prior to 1994, then the second coming has already taken place. Either way the prophecy would work and JWs are clueless as to the correct understanding.

    I do not mean to be disrespectful, but do you really think I am going to believe that you met Mary?

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    Disqus_tIiI7cx2qadisqus_tIiI7cx2qa
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    Post count: 11

    I do not mean to be disrespectful, but do you really think I am going to believe that you met Mary?

    [/quote]

    Of course not, you can’t. There is a chasm between the two groups, the “new wine” group and the “old wine skins” group:

    Luke 16: And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’

    Acts 13:41 “‘Look at it, you scorners, and be amazed, and perish, for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will never believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail.’”

    But believing me personally is not the issue. The issue is whether you believe the Bible and whether or not the Bible teaches that some from the 1st century would never die until Christ comes. That’s your real problem, believing this:

    Matthew 16:41 “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

    Now the Bible clearly says some would never die. When Jesus was on the stake he told John in reference to Mary “This is your mother” and to Mary “this is your son.” That was in reference to the two of them at one time having to take care of each other. Mary had other children who could do that, but since they both would be living down to our time, they were to take care of each other. That’s the reference that Mary was chosen not to die. Other scriptures are more direct about Paul not dying or John not dying.

    But you also have the other issue of the 144,000. The Bible says all of them are Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. You can try to make that symbolic if you want, but that’s the direct reference. In order to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant a remnant of the 12 tribes must be part o the kingdom. That chosen remnant, that holy root is the 144,000 (Isa. 6:3). But the only way to choose 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe in modern times when Christ arrives is the 12 tribes of Israel have to exist again. The only way to do that was to choose individuals from the 12 tribes who had lineage proof that they were from one of the twelve tribes. Then those individuals were chosen not to die and to live down to our time and then marry into indigenous groups so that by the time Christ came, there could maybe perhaps 1-2 million descendants to choose the 12,000 from. This fulfills what is said in Isaiah:

    Isiah 60:22 “The little one will become a thousand
    And the small one a mighty nation.
    I myself, Jehovah, will speed it up in its own time.”

    This is about just individuals from the 12 tribes being used to re-create the 12 tribes in modern times. This is what the Bible teaches. It’s just that along with these chosen members of the 12 tribes, I guess Jesus decided that John, Mary and Paul were to join them and never die.

    Now this is too hard for you to accept and you don’t have to accept it, even though it is true and the Bible says so. Remember, Christ does not put “new wine” into “old wine skins” because this truth is too powerful for you to handle. But know this is what the Bible does teach and know that it has miraculously come true.

    The message here is that if you are on the outside you cannot understand what is going on in the inside. So just focus on your devotion to God and do your best. You cannot come over to the spiritual side where I am. Everything in the Bible is not for everyone; a lot in the Bible is to be understood by the chosen ones only. But I’m ecstatic because I can see all the inside truth happening and being fulfilled! It’s wonderful.

    But at one point — do you really believe the Bible or not? Rejecting that I’ve personally met Mary or not has nothing to do with whether the Bible says she is supposed to have never died. Rejecting what I claim is one thing; rejecting what the Bible teaches is another. Though in this case, God is not forcing you to accept this “new wine” at this time. God will not reject you for it, no more than he rejected the older brother for rejecting the prodigal son’s return.

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    Jwstudentjwstudent
    Participant
    Post count: 17

    The message here is that if you are on the outside you cannot understand what is going on in the inside. So just focus on your devotion to God and do your best. You cannot come over to the spiritual side where I am.

    Likewise, going by the scripture you quoted (Luke 16), you can’t come over this “this side”?

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