Jehovah’s Witnesses watchman Forums Watchman Forum The Man of Lawlessness in Scripture

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  • Frank CongerFrank Conger
    Participant
    Post count: 47

    Hi Huldah:

    Could be one of the reasons he “cuts things short” to not allow Christ’s Bride to go through that evil transition all the way. If given enough time all true faiths will go bad while we are still Adam’s offspring.

    Frank

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    Frank CongerFrank Conger
    Participant
    Post count: 47

    On first read it seems to me that the old prophet is a weed. He lives in Bethel which was controlled by a false worshiping King who like Saul was acting as a King and a Priest, which Jehovah did not approve of. The old prophet was not called a prophet of Jehovah, but just an old prophet. Lastly, he told the Man of God something that was directly contrary to what Jehovah had instructed him to his eventual demise. But I’m sure this account is full of symbolism’s that might even be applicable today. I will have to think about this more in the days to come. Thanks for reminding me of this account.

    Frank

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    Disqus_LgOOYv99voJohn 3:16
    Participant
    Post count: 13

    “When and how did the unnamed prophet find the answer to this question?”

    To me, it seems the “how” could be answered “the hard way”, and the “when” would be “when it was too late”.

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    HuldahtoHilkiahHuldahtoHilkiah
    Participant
    Post count: 29

    Thanks for your kind replies Frank and Kevin?

    Glad you got a chance to read about the old prophet, Frank.

    You are right lots of symbolism.
    I wonder if it is a “type” of the man of lawlessness even. Hmmmmm

    There was a drama at a DC 7 yrs or so ago on this account.
    Good point you made about him being in Bethel too.
    How profound.
    What’s scary is that Jehovah held the unnamed prophet accountable for believing the lies of the old prophet.

    I say a weed
    Maybe even a MOL
    Jude 3,4

    3 Beloved ones, although I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common,+ I found it necessary to write you to urge you to put up a hard fight for the faith+ that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct*+ and who prove false to our only owner* and Lord, Jesus Christ.+

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    Bklyn KevinBklyn Kevin
    Participant
    Post count: 18

    This particular article goes along with this topic.
    King Saul – A Type of the Evil Slave.

    King Saul – A Type of the Evil Slave

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    Frank CongerFrank Conger
    Participant
    Post count: 47

    I think I may have attended one more DC after disassociating. This account was done in a drama and I thought it was rather deep in meaning and difficult to untie the knots of the Holy Spirit then and still do now.

    Frank

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    Ken_RosenbergKen_Rosenberg
    Participant
    Post count: 35

    1st Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.

    Compare with the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

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    Ken_RosenbergKen_Rosenberg
    Participant
    Post count: 35

    Also, I would not recommend calling the Governing Body the man of lawlessness and instead refer to the MOL as the watchtower, because that would be judging them, and let us not forget:

    Jude 1:9 But when Miʹcha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

    If Michael refrained from judging Satan of all people, we should also not judge the GB, which I am guilty of. But refer to the Watchtower instead, as that can mean anyone.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Ken_Rosenberg Ken_Rosenberg.
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    SongofHannahSongofHannah
    Keymaster
    Post count: 55

    Thank you Ken for that reminder. I am only now starting to understand the importance of this – and some repentance is definitely due, on my part. I ran across this scripture just the other day:

    1 Cor 4:5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God.

    And then in Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.”

    So I gotta take note of how I am judging, and be more careful. So thank you.

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    SongofHannahSongofHannah
    Keymaster
    Post count: 55

    Hmmm, along with Herod, could Pelatiah be a second witness against the Man of Lawlessness, the first to die when Jehovah judges the house of God?

    Ezeliel 11:13
    As soon as I prophesied, Pel·a·tiʹah the son of Be·naiʹah died, and I fell facedown and cried with a loud voice: “Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Are you going to exterminate the remaining ones of Israel?”

    Acts 12:21
    On a set day, Herod clothed himself with royal raiment and sat down on the judgment seat and began giving them a public address. 22 Then the people who were assembled began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!” 23 Instantly the angel of Jehovah struck him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten up with worms and died.

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    HuldahtoHilkiahHuldahtoHilkiah
    Participant
    Post count: 29

    Vs 2 of Ezekiel 11 supports this as it says “these are the men who are ….giving wicked advice in the city.”

    They are singled out.

    This is interesting because it happens before the final desolation of Jerusalem. In some ways it could parallel something that occurs before the disgusting thing desolates modern Jerusalem, though I know that originally happened in 70 CE.

    I have this question as regards 2Thessalonians 2

    1Now, dear brothers and sisters,a let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. NLT

    Paul says here that Jesus will not come (Parousia, I believe) before the MOL is revealed first.
    Is that correct or is he referring to the “being gathered to meet him” will not come until the MOL is revealed? He mentions two things that will not come before the MOL is revealed and uses the conjunction, “and”. THE COMING and THE GATHERING.

    If it is both, it changes the timing of events. The MOL is revealed before the fall of the US (deathstroke to the 7th head) because the deathstroke happens at the same time Satan is ousted from heaven and Jesus begins rulership (comes).

    This would line up with Pelatiah’s death before the destruction of Jerusalem.

    It would be interesting to see some upheaval in the organization before all hell breaks loose in the world.

    This lines up somewhat with the scripture that says ‘ Jehovah will not do a single thing unless he reveals it to his prophets first.’

    Also
    Hosea 6:5
    New American Standard 1977
    Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets;
    I have slain them by the words of My mouth;
    And the judgments on you are like the light that goes forth.

    Hewn or torn up because their interpretation of the prophets was wrong. A great test for all.
    Slain or revealed to be worthy of death due to disobedience when Jesus reveals the real truth, his “words”

    I’m intrigued by the timing of when the MOL is revealed as much as who it is.
    Judgement on the MOL, the judgement coming on the org. is revealed.

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    HuldahtoHilkiahHuldahtoHilkiah
    Participant
    Post count: 29

    Hi Hannah and all,
    I was talking with my husband this morning, discussing the fact that no man has the right to lord it over others through titles in “God’s organization”. He brought up a good scripture 1Timothy 3:1. He wondered why it said to reach out for “officeof overseer”, the word “office” inherently referring to a title of power in our modern minds.

    I brought up how “the greatest among you must be your minister”, “the nations lord it over [others]”, Jesus refused to even take the title, “good”etc……

    I also decided to research the phrase “office of overseer”. I found Psalms 109:8 “Let his office of oversight” be given to someone else. A reference to both the MOL and Judas Iscariot (based on Acts 1 where Judas’ “office of oversight” was given to another) Psalm 109 is comforting to read BTW.

    If you connect all of these scriptures and this phrase, the “office” of overseer/oversight equates to an apostleship in a sense. Perhaps this is why Jesus commended the Ephesians in Revelation for “putting to the test those who say they are apostles [in a sense, overseers or elders]” and finding that they are not. Rev. 2:2. We know the “apostles”were counseled often about not seeking to Lord it over others.
    Perimeno is fond of making the distinction between elders who are appointed by HS and those appointed by the WT. My mother has been fond of making this distinction herself. This has application here.

    In all cases the Greek word is episkope(n)
    meaning “visitation of judgment” and/or oversight, supervision, overseer

    It becomes clear that the idea of “office” in the modern sense or in the sense of a lordship over others was never intended by the Greek, but only the duty of oversight and supervision.

    HERE’S THE KICKER.

    Notice episkope means also “visitation of judgment”
    Luke 19:44-“You did not discern the time of your being inspected (episkope).”
    1Peter 2:12 “glorify God in the day for his inspection (episkope).”

    Knowing Jehovah as I do, I do not think it is a coincidence that the Greek word used for the “office of overseer” and “visitation of judgment” is the same word. Judas Iscariot, the Pharisees both faced their ‘visitation of judgment’ or ‘day of inspection’ so will the MOL.

    Amen, Come EPISKOPE!

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    SongofHannahSongofHannah
    Keymaster
    Post count: 55

    King Omri, a type of Man of Lawlessness?

    Micah 6:16 “For you observe the statutes of Omʹri and all the work of the house of Aʹhab, And you walk in accord with their advice. That is why I will make you an object of horror And her inhabitants something to be whistled at; And you will bear the scorn of the peoples.”

    Who was Omri?

    1. A king of the Northern 10 Tribe who had no Israelite heritage
    2. Father to Abab
    3. The Israelites were condemned for following his statutes

    Insight book states:
    “Sixth king of the northern ten-tribe kingdom of Israel. Nothing of Omri’s ancestry is recorded, not even the name of his father or tribe. Omri founded the third dynasty of Israel (those of Jeroboam and Baasha preceded), his son Ahab and grandsons Ahaziah and Jehoram succeeding him, all four totaling some 46 years (c. 951-905 B.C.E.) on the throne. Omri’s granddaughter Athaliah ruled six years on the throne of Judah. (2Ki 8:26; 11:1-3; 2Ch 22:2)

    “Omri came to the throne, not by inheritance, but by the sword. He had been chief of Israel’s army under King Elah (and perhaps under his predecessor Baasha) when Zimri, chief of half the chariots, overthrew Elah, took the kingship for himself, and wiped out the house and friends of Baasha. As soon as this was reported to the Israelite army, at the time camped against the Philistines at Gibbethon, “all Israel,” doubtless the tribal heads “in the camp,” made Omri their king.

    “Mightiness” is attributed to King Omri. (1Ki 16:27) According to lines 4 through 8 of the Moabite Stone, Omri brought Moab into subjection, which domination Ahab continued. (2Ki 3:4) Midway in his reign, Omri wisely moved his capital away from Tirzah, which he had found so easy to capture. He purchased the mountain owned by Shemer, well suited for fortifying, and there he built a new city, Samaria, which was able to withstand long sieges. (1Ki 16:23, 24) Cuneiform inscriptions likewise call him its founder, and it was also his burial place. (1Ki 16:28) In the course of his reign, Omri met with various setbacks, such as having to surrender some cities to the king of Syria (1Ki 20:34) and having to pay tribute to Assyria, he being the first Israelite king to do so.

    “Religiously, Omri continued the downward trend of the northern kingdom; he continued Jeroboam’s idolatry; in fact, he “kept doing what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah and came to do worse than all who were prior to him.” (1Ki 16:25, 26) Some 200 years later, through Micah, Jehovah condemned Israel for following “the statutes of Omri.”​—Mic 6:16.”

    What are “The Statutes of Omri”?

    Interestingly, the Bible is silent on this; however, it does offer us up a clue in 1 Kings 16:25-26:

    “And Omʹri kept doing what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah and came to do worse than all who were prior to him. And he went walking in all the way of Jer·o·boʹam the son of Neʹbat and in his sin with which he caused Israel to sin by offending Jehovah the God of Israel with their vain idols.

    Insight book states of Jeroboam’s “statues”:

    “Seeing his subjects streaming up to the temple in Jerusalem to worship, Jeroboam envisioned that in time they might switch their allegiance to Rehoboam and then they would kill him. So he decided to put a stop to this by establishing a religion centered around two golden calves, which he set up, one at Bethel in the south, the other at Dan in the north. He also set up his own non-Aaronic priesthood, composed of those among the people in general who were willing to procure the office by offering one bull and seven rams. These then served “for the high places and for the goat-shaped demons and for the calves that he had made.” Jeroboam also invented special ‘holy days’ and personally led the people in sacrificing to his newly created gods.

    “His introducing calf worship constituted “the sins of Jeroboam,” sins of which other Israelite kings became guilty by perpetuating this apostate worship.​—1Ki 14:16; 15:30, 34; 16:2, 19, 26, 31; 22:52; 2Ki 3:3; 10:29, 31; 13:2, 6, 11; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 17:21-23.”

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