- SongofHannahKeymasterMarch 27, 2017 at 6:54 amPost count: 53
Trying to uncover further scriptures that might also be identified as pertaining to he Man of Lawlessness. (2 Thess 2:5)
How about this one?
“But your day has come, O fatally wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, the time of your final punishment. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” – Ezekiel 21:25-27
Any insights on this? And anyone care to share others they also wonder about?disqus_tIiI7cx2qaParticipantMarch 28, 2017 at 6:58 amPost count: 11
The man of lawlessness rises up in God’s own house. Thus the man of lawlessness must be associated with Jehovah’s visible temple organization. The anointed ones among JWs make up God’s public temple. They are holy ones and considered glorious, like “gods.” But from among them a few make themselves gods in God’s own house, making themselves mediators for all the other holy ones. They call themselves “God’s channel of communication” and so if you do not follow their lead, you are considered opposing God himself. This is not God’s arrangement.
As a result, God removes them from this high position. The GB calls itself the “faithful and discreet slave,” a title originally given to CT Russell by JF Rutherford in the “7th Volume” until he decided it should be a title that applies to the current GB. But it called that title “creature worship” when applied to a single individual, CT Russell. Right now, indeed, the flock do worship the GB thinking them to be their direct link to God and Christ, thus usurping Christ’s rule as mediator.
In the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” the rich man is first one of great power and Lazarus is a lowly one with many sins, so much so, he is cast out of the rich man’s house. But then those events reverse. Later we find the rich man has lost his turban and has been cast low. What was high has become low. But also, what is low has become high. Lazarus, once lowly has been chosen to become the “faithful and discreet slave” essentially. Lazarus has the “legal right” because he represents Jesus Christ at the second coming. Note John 1:18 describes Christ as the “only-begotten god in the BOSOM position of the Father.” Well, we see Lazarus depicted in the bosom position of the father Abraham. This means Lazarus has become the Christ and has been made high, whereas the GB having become apostate is now in spiritual torment and his crown has been removed. What is low has become high and what is high has become low. Lazarus, who has become the Christ, once lowly, has proven to be the “faithful and discreet slave” and the GB has become the apostate man of lawlessness. But doesn’t it make sense that Christ himself ends up being the “faithful and discreet slave”? Of course.
Very good observation.SongofHannahKeymasterMarch 28, 2017 at 8:32 amPost count: 53
In the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” the rich man is first one of great power and Lazarus is a lowly one with many sins, so much so, he is cast out of the rich man’s house. But then those events reverse. Later we find the rich man has lost his turban and has been cast low. What was high has become low. But also, what is low has become high. Lazarus, once lowly has been chosen to become the “faithful and discreet slave” essentially. Lazarus has the “legal right” because he represents Jesus Christ at the second coming. Note John 1:18 describes Christ as the “only-begotten god in the BOSOM position of the Father.” Well, we see Lazarus depicted in the bosom position of the father Abraham.
Great observation indeed! Yes I think you are on to something here. Also, I never remembered the account saying Lazarus had been thrown out of the rich man’s house, but after re-reading it and checking the interlinear, and then the Greek concordance, there is indeed a strong case for it.
Lu 16:20 “πτωχὸς Poor (one) δέ but τις some ὀνόματι to name Λάζαρος Lazarus ἐβέβλητο had been thrown πρὸς toward τὸν the πυλῶνα gate αὐτοῦ of him εἱλκωμένος having been ulcerated.”
“ἐβέβλητο Thrown, cast, with force or effort”
Thanks for your excellent contribution! Any more you or anyone else would like to share? 🙂John 3:16ParticipantApril 27, 2017 at 10:45 pmPost count: 13
Daniel 36 certainly has some striking similarities.
NWT – 36 The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods+ he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place.
Note the same wording in regards to what this particular “person” does in 2 Thessalonians 4. He also “exalts himself above god”
NWT – He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship,* so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.
In Daniel 36 “He” proves to be successful, but only for a given amount of time. Similarily, in Thessalonians 8 we see that the Man of Lawlessness is only successful for a given period.SongofHannahKeymasterApril 29, 2017 at 8:34 amPost count: 53
Regarding antitypes of the “Man of Lawlessness” in scripture, what about the Herods? Ran across this scripture, and saw the glimpse of a pattern…
Acts 12:21 “On a set day, Herod clothed himself with royal raiment and sat down on the judgment seat and began giving them a public address. 22 Then the people who were assembled began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!” 23 Instantly the angel of Jehovah struck him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten up with worms and died. 24 But the word of Jehovah went on growing and spreading.”
This led me to research further about the Herods. What’s fascinating, is that the Herods were really Edomites who falsely passed themselves off as Jews!
The Insight book reports “Antipater’s son, also called Antipater or Antipas, was the father of Herod the Great. Josephus relates that the historian Nicholas of Damascus says Antipater (II) was of the stock of the principal Jews who came out of Babylon into the land of Judah. But Josephus says that Nicholas’ assertion was merely to gratify Herod, who was actually an Edomite on both his father’s side and his mother’s.” (Insight p. 1091)
And regarding “lawlessness”, as a class, it’s astounding what all the Herods were responsible for:
1) The slaughter of Jewish children in an attempt to kill the Christ. (Matt 2:16)
2) The arrest of John the Baptist and his subsequent murder. (Mark 6:17-19; Luke 3:19; Matt 14:5-10; Mark 6:27)
3) The conspiratorial actions of the “Party Followers of Herod”, a political group likely associated with the Sadducees, who schemed to entrap and kill Jesus. (Mark 12:13; Matt 22:16-22; Mark 3:6; Insight p. 1099)
4) The murder of Jesus. (Luke 13:31,32; Luke 23:11,12)
5) The persecution of Christians.
(Acts 4:27-30; 12:1)
6) The murder of the Apostle James (Acts 12:2)
7) The arrest and attempted murder of the Apostle Peter (Acts 12:3,4,11,19)
8) Besides the scriptures, other historical documents record the Herods as being cruel murderers of family members as well as countless other Jews. (Insight p. 1090-1099)
Of secondary note, Herod the Great was also responsible for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, along with many other building works. Thanks kinda interesting too, isn’t it? (Insight p. 1091)
Of further interest, Jesus warned his disciples “in no uncertain terms” to keep their eyes open and “look out for the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” — Mark 8:15
What is the leaven of Herod?
Insight in the Scriptures brings out “The disciples at first did not understand that Jesus was using a symbolism, but they finally discerned that he was warning them to be on guard against false doctrine and hypocritical practices, “the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees,” which teaching had a corrupting effect. (Mt 16:6, 11, 12; Lu 12:1) He also mentioned Herod (evidently including his party followers) in one of his warnings, saying: “Keep your eyes open, look out for the leavenof the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” (Insight p. 230)
In more detail, under “Herod” it brings out “Both of these sects, the Pharisees and the Herodians, or party followers of Herod, opposed Jesus Christ and his teachings, and though they were at enmity with each other, both saw Christ as a common enemy and were united against him. The Herodians were more political than religious; it has been said that they claimed to follow the Law but maintained the opinion that it was lawful for the Jews to acknowledge a foreign prince (for the Herods were not true Jews, but Idumeans [Edomites]). The Herodians were very nationalistic and supported neither the idea of theocratic rule under Jewish kings nor Roman rule, but they wanted the restoration of the national kingdom under one or the other of the sons of Herod.” (Insight p. 1096)
So to sum it all up, we have a multi-generational group of lawless men who ruled over God’s people right before, during and right after the coming of Jesus, who lyingly passed themselves off as faithful Jews but, in the end proved themselves enemies of God, his Son, and his people. And to top if all off, in the end we have Herod Agrippa, who places himself in the judgement seat and exalts himself above God, only to be done away with by Jehovah’s angel.
All very reminiscent of 2 Thess 2:4,8:
4 “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.”
8 “Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.”
Lastly we have Agrippa Il, who Paul witnesses to (Acts 26:4-32). He’s the only Herod that doesn’t seem to fit anywhere within this pattern. But not sure if he needs to? If any of you have any thoughts where he might, please chime in. 🙂John 3:16ParticipantMay 6, 2017 at 3:43 pmPost count: 13
What stands out most to me in the account of Paul witnessing to Agrippa II is this exchange in verses 27-29
27 Do you, King A·grippa, believe the Prophets? I know that you believe.” 28 But A·grippa said to Paul: “In a short time you would persuade me to become a Christian.” 29 At this Paul said: “I wish to God that whether in a short time or in a long time, not only you but also all those who hear me today would become men such as I am, with the exception of these prison bonds.”
In a long line of lawless men, are these verses showing us that it may be possible for such lawless ones to change their ways?HuldahtoHilkiahParticipantMay 7, 2017 at 2:21 pmPost count: 28
As I sit here slowly chomping down on the little gummy balls of tapioca in my boba tea, I’m finding it just as enjoyable and challenging to attempt to digest this interesting discussion on “the man of lawlessness”.🍵
Great post and comments.
This has been a sibject of major interet to me for a while.
I even got out my notes!
When Ezekiel inspected the temple Jehovah took him around to show him all the things his people were doing.
Here is what he saw in chapter8
7 Then he brought me to the entrance of the courtyard, and when I looked, I saw a hole in the wall. 8 He said to me: “Son of man, please bore through the wall.” So I bored through the wall, and I saw an entryway. 9 He said to me: “Go in and see the evil, detestable things that they are doing here.” 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw all sorts of images of creeping things and loathsome beasts+ and all the disgusting idols* of the house of Israel;+ they were carved on the wall all around. 11 And 70 of the elders of the house of Israel were standing before them, with Ja·az·a·ni′ah the son of Sha′phan+ standing among them. Each one had his censer in his hand, and the perfumed cloud of incense was ascending.+ 12 He said to me: “Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each one in the inner rooms where his idols are displayed?* For they are saying, ‘Jehovah is not seeing us. Jehovah has left the land.’”+
Notice two things.
He had to bore out a hole to see it so it took special insight and effort to realize what was going on.
Jehovah made a point to ask him basically ‘Are you seeing this?’
Not everybody was.
Later in Ezekiel 44:10-14…..
10 “‘But the Levites who strayed far from me+ when Israel strayed from me to follow their disgusting idols* will bear the consequences of their error. 11 And they will become ministers in my sanctuary to oversee the gates of the temple+ and to minister at the temple. They will slaughter the whole burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they will stand before the people to minister to them. 12 Because they ministered to them before their disgusting idols and became a stumbling block causing the house of Israel to sin,+ that is why I have raised my hand against them in an oath,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘and they will bear the consequences of their error. 13 They will not approach me to serve as my priests or approach any of my holy or most holy things, and they will bear their shame because of the detestable things that they did. 14 But I will make them caretakers of the responsibilities of the temple, to take care of its service and all the things that should be done in it.’+
Key points I see are that the Levites (anointed) strayed and became a stumbling block and because of this they were demoted!!
Vs. 13 They are no longer allowed to serve in the most holy. Only Aaronic Levites (or anointed ones) can serve in the most holy. They become only caretakers of temple, which is the lot of non Aaronic Levites.
Malach 3:1-5 bears on the Sons of Levi too.
“Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me.+ And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple;+ and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
2 “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye*+ of laundrymen. 3 And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver+ and will cleanse the sons of Le′vi; and he will clarify* them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 4 And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be pleasing* to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity.+
5 “I will come near to you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers,+ against the adulterers, against those who take false oaths,+ against those who defraud the hired worker,+ the widow, and the fatherless child,*+ and against those who refuse to help* the foreigner.+ These have not feared me,” says Jehovah of armies.
Well, that’s more to chew than a glass of boba tea so I’ll leave it there.
All my boba’s gone anyway!😕
I’ll be interested to get anyone’s opininion.SongofHannahKeymasterMay 7, 2017 at 9:34 pmPost count: 53HuldahtoHilkiahParticipantMay 7, 2017 at 10:44 pmPost count: 28HuldahtoHilkiahParticipantMay 9, 2017 at 11:24 amPost count: 28
There’s so much to consider from your post. When you mentioned that the Herods are Edomites, I remembered that Edom came from Esau.
It seems to me that Satan has used family, especially siblings to test and trouble Jehovah’s faithful ones from the beginning. EX. Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Joseph’s brothers, Jesus’ brothers,Israel vs Judah, the Herods….
I think the fact that we call ourselves brothers and sisters in the congregation has double meaning, as I have experienced. Many are more like Joseph’s brothers than Jonathan was to David. Additionally, my own siblings have been a great distress to me as I have seen in the lives of others I know too. My husband’s sister has been a very dangerous stumbling block to him and me too.
So…it makes sense that the Herods did what they did. The rivalry of the two seeds from the beginning. I wonder if the Herods represent a certain level of leadership in the organization today as opposed to what the Pharisees may represent. Perhaps the Pharisees are the elders and the top leadership is the Herods. Herod is the one that built the glorious temple that Jehovah destroyed in 70 CE. It appears he’s about to do that again to our modern properties. At least have them raided and confiscated.
You’re onto something with your research on the Herod’s.Frank CongerParticipantMay 9, 2017 at 8:32 pmPost count: 38
The true wheat are the ones that Jesus planted on the fine soil and are the ones chosen by Jehovah to be Jesus Bride and reign with him in the heavens. The lawless ones have their seeds planted by Satan the Devil who is “the man” that goes behind Jesus and plants seeds as well. We know that Judas was called a devil by Jesus in John 6 circa vs 60, because although Jesus allowed Judas to join his Apostles, he was only permitted so to fulfill scripture. Jesus knew that Judas was a weed right from the beginning. Read the end of John 6 very carefully and you will see this. Plus, Jehovah would not draw a weed to be part of his Son’s Bride.
No doubt other weeds were also drawn toward true Christianity and some no doubt made their way to the pinnacle of influence in early Christianity and formed the seed of apostacy. The man of lawlessness was born during the first presence of the Christ. This lawlessness grew until the latter part of the first Century it was in full bloom in the form of the Catholic Church whick became the Harlot that rode the wild beast of Rome as the first Century “man of lawlessness”‘
In this Century the true Church that Jehovah drew sanctified ones to was Jehovah’s Witnesses. But just as in first Century Christianity, there were wheat that was planted in righteous hearts and there were likewise weeds planted in unsanctified hearts and both were attracted to the JW’s. Some (the wheat) were attracted by Jehovah to join the wheat that was selected by him in the first presence into early Christianity. The problem is that weeds were also planted by the devil and these weeds (some of them) were also attracted to “the Truth”. In this way the second presence of the Christ also has both wheat and weeds in it. The wheat are naturally drawn by Jehovah into positions of authority, but weeds move themselves into these same positions of authority in God’s Organization. It is the weeds that form another composite man known as the “man of lawlessness, similar to the one in the first presence in the first Century. In the first Century it was these weeds that directed the apostate form of Christianity into an alliance with Rome and became the Great Harlot of the first presence “The Catholic Church”. If given enough time Jehovah’s Witnesses would take the same course with those truly sanctified going in their own direction and the weeds joining with the political system of this world to form another Great Harlot of this time. They have already rode the beast, the U.N. from January 28, 1992 till October 31, 2001 when they were found out and made public by a newspaper story.
It is not too far of a stretch to see them join up with the wild beast that forms soon that will be “the image of the beast” which will be some new and improved U.N. (or Son of the U.N., because the image of something is its Son). But Jehovah plans on disciplining the ones in his organization that he loves, and when he does it will become very apparent who the truly “sanctified” ones are because they will be made known by Christ himself. Then there will be no doubt who the remnant of the Bride of Christ are and who are the imposter’s, some of whom make up the “man of lawlessness” of this presence. You will not have to guess who they are and the ones who have “anointed themselves” will be put on display for all to see. Some of them will be among those that stand up in “a holy place” making themselves equal to God. Can’t wait! Yes I can, I have to.
Frank CongerHuldahtoHilkiahParticipantMay 11, 2017 at 1:34 pmPost count: 28
So glad to no longer be alone in my inclination to believe that the wheat and weeds are growing together inside the true christian congregation as all here are aware.
I whole-heartedly agree that if things were to continue as they are, Jehovah’s Witnesses would fully apostasize with the weeds swallowing up the wheat in short order. It would be as in “the dark ages” of christianity, only a few sparse anointed dotting the bedarkened landscape. Thankfully that’s not Jehovah’s plan this time. His aim is to pull up the weeds and till the soil so that the wheat flourishes forever.Frank CongerParticipantMay 13, 2017 at 12:34 pmPost count: 38
Yes, I think most of the folks on this board understand that weeds have been sown and are flourishing in the hearts of people in control of JW’s through their unscriptural democratic process that is used by Jezebel. The problem is that weeds have a funny way of looking like wheat on the outside It will surely take the angels to do the weeding, at least until we get to the point that we can spot the weeds on our own, without error. Don’t know how many decades, Centuries etc. that will take but surely Jesus and his angels will surely know.
I think I am marked as a weed on this board, but only time will tell for sure. Glad they are not going to be running the show. Not even the Apostles could tell they had “a devil” in their midst, that’s how crafty they are.
FrankHuldahtoHilkiahParticipantMay 13, 2017 at 2:14 pmPost count: 28
I don’t see why you’d be called a weed. Just as it is widely understood that people who are truly insane never question whether they are sane or not, weeds never wonder if they are wheat or weeds. They are self assured that they are the finest wheat.
If you are humble enough to question your standing with God you are not a weed.
Interesting that you mentioned that the apostles couldn’t see the weed in their midst.
It could be said that they were new in the truth, though. They didn’t know that it was wrong to fight over positions either and were unaware that the kingdom was not going to display itself immediately.
As they grew up in the truth I am sure they could spot the weeds especially since they were the “thing acting as a restraint” keeping the cong clean of the rising apostasy. When they died off, it rose rapidly.
For me, the tell tale sign is haughtiness. I have suffered tremendously because of this vicious trait in many brothers.
I can sense it before I smell it before I spot it a mile away.
I do not trust such ones. I do not associate with such ones. I don’t scream out that they are weeds nor do I point it out to others. I just don’t give anything they say or do the time of day.
7 Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.+ 18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites,* and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.”
I allow myself the right to “suspect” so that I am not “seduced”.
I overheard a sister make a great point…..when we use scriptural guidelines to determine if someone is a true Christian, we are not judging them. Christ has already judged certain traits and behaviors and plainly laid them out in the scriptures for us to follow as did the inspired Apostle Paul too.
Of course I’m not referring to minor infractions or to those who are new who have not had time to learn.
I find this sort of haughtiness mainly in well titled individuals or families with long histories around the truth.
I cannot make excuses in my mind for these ones.
When we know there is poison in the water, we are fools not to take the neccessary precautions to protect ourselves and those we love.
Maybe my wariness is extreme, but we are in a time of spiritual warfare where extremes are often in order to protect our faith. Trusting the wrong person could be deadly.
One if the most intriguing stories in the Bible…….Please read it for your own protection.
Old Prophet Unnamed Prophet
Was the old prophet wheat or weeds?
When and how did the unnamed prophet find the answer to this question?
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