- SongofHannahKeymasterMarch 27, 2017 at 6:54 amPost count: 35
Trying to uncover further scriptures that might also be identified as pertaining to he Man of Lawlessness. (2 Thess 2:5)
How about this one?
“But your day has come, O fatally wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, the time of your final punishment. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” – Ezekiel 21:25-27
Any insights on this? And anyone care to share others they also wonder about?disqus_tIiI7cx2qaParticipantMarch 28, 2017 at 6:58 amPost count: 11
The man of lawlessness rises up in God’s own house. Thus the man of lawlessness must be associated with Jehovah’s visible temple organization. The anointed ones among JWs make up God’s public temple. They are holy ones and considered glorious, like “gods.” But from among them a few make themselves gods in God’s own house, making themselves mediators for all the other holy ones. They call themselves “God’s channel of communication” and so if you do not follow their lead, you are considered opposing God himself. This is not God’s arrangement.
As a result, God removes them from this high position. The GB calls itself the “faithful and discreet slave,” a title originally given to CT Russell by JF Rutherford in the “7th Volume” until he decided it should be a title that applies to the current GB. But it called that title “creature worship” when applied to a single individual, CT Russell. Right now, indeed, the flock do worship the GB thinking them to be their direct link to God and Christ, thus usurping Christ’s rule as mediator.
In the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” the rich man is first one of great power and Lazarus is a lowly one with many sins, so much so, he is cast out of the rich man’s house. But then those events reverse. Later we find the rich man has lost his turban and has been cast low. What was high has become low. But also, what is low has become high. Lazarus, once lowly has been chosen to become the “faithful and discreet slave” essentially. Lazarus has the “legal right” because he represents Jesus Christ at the second coming. Note John 1:18 describes Christ as the “only-begotten god in the BOSOM position of the Father.” Well, we see Lazarus depicted in the bosom position of the father Abraham. This means Lazarus has become the Christ and has been made high, whereas the GB having become apostate is now in spiritual torment and his crown has been removed. What is low has become high and what is high has become low. Lazarus, who has become the Christ, once lowly, has proven to be the “faithful and discreet slave” and the GB has become the apostate man of lawlessness. But doesn’t it make sense that Christ himself ends up being the “faithful and discreet slave”? Of course.
Very good observation.SongofHannahKeymasterMarch 28, 2017 at 8:32 amPost count: 35
In the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” the rich man is first one of great power and Lazarus is a lowly one with many sins, so much so, he is cast out of the rich man’s house. But then those events reverse. Later we find the rich man has lost his turban and has been cast low. What was high has become low. But also, what is low has become high. Lazarus, once lowly has been chosen to become the “faithful and discreet slave” essentially. Lazarus has the “legal right” because he represents Jesus Christ at the second coming. Note John 1:18 describes Christ as the “only-begotten god in the BOSOM position of the Father.” Well, we see Lazarus depicted in the bosom position of the father Abraham.
Great observation indeed! Yes I think you are on to something here. Also, I never remembered the account saying Lazarus had been thrown out of the rich man’s house, but after re-reading it and checking the interlinear, and then the Greek concordance, there is indeed a strong case for it.
Lu 16:20 “πτωχὸς Poor (one) δέ but τις some ὀνόματι to name Λάζαρος Lazarus ἐβέβλητο had been thrown πρὸς toward τὸν the πυλῶνα gate αὐτοῦ of him εἱλκωμένος having been ulcerated.”
“ἐβέβλητο Thrown, cast, with force or effort”
Thanks for your excellent contribution! Any more you or anyone else would like to share? 🙂disqus_LgOOYv99voParticipantApril 27, 2017 at 10:45 pmPost count: 6
Daniel 36 certainly has some striking similarities.
NWT – 36 The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods+ he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place.
Note the same wording in regards to what this particular “person” does in 2 Thessalonians 4. He also “exalts himself above god”
NWT – He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship,* so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.
In Daniel 36 “He” proves to be successful, but only for a given amount of time. Similarily, in Thessalonians 8 we see that the Man of Lawlessness is only successful for a given period.SongofHannahKeymasterApril 29, 2017 at 8:34 amPost count: 35
Regarding antitypes of the “Man of Lawlessness” in scripture, what about the Herods? Ran across this scripture, and saw the glimpse of a pattern…
Acts 12:21 “On a set day, Herod clothed himself with royal raiment and sat down on the judgment seat and began giving them a public address. 22 Then the people who were assembled began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!” 23 Instantly the angel of Jehovah struck him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten up with worms and died. 24 But the word of Jehovah went on growing and spreading.”
This led me to research further about the Herods. What’s fascinating, is that the Herods were really Edomites who falsely passed themselves off as Jews!
The Insight book reports “Antipater’s son, also called Antipater or Antipas, was the father of Herod the Great. Josephus relates that the historian Nicholas of Damascus says Antipater (II) was of the stock of the principal Jews who came out of Babylon into the land of Judah. But Josephus says that Nicholas’ assertion was merely to gratify Herod, who was actually an Edomite on both his father’s side and his mother’s.” (Insight p. 1091)
And regarding “lawlessness”, as a class, it’s astounding what all the Herods were responsible for:
1) The slaughter of Jewish children in an attempt to kill the Christ. (Matt 2:16)
2) The arrest of John the Baptist and his subsequent murder. (Mark 6:17-19; Luke 3:19; Matt 14:5-10; Mark 6:27)
3) The conspiratorial actions of the “Party Followers of Herod”, a political group likely associated with the Sadducees, who schemed to entrap and kill Jesus. (Mark 12:13; Matt 22:16-22; Mark 3:6; Insight p. 1099)
4) The murder of Jesus. (Luke 13:31,32; Luke 23:11,12)
5) The persecution of Christians.
(Acts 4:27-30; 12:1)
6) The murder of the Apostle James (Acts 12:2)
7) The arrest and attempted murder of the Apostle Peter (Acts 12:3,4,11,19)
8) Besides the scriptures, other historical documents record the Herods as being cruel murderers of family members as well as countless other Jews. (Insight p. 1090-1099)
Of secondary note, Herod the Great was also responsible for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, along with many other building works. Thanks kinda interesting too, isn’t it? (Insight p. 1091)
Of further interest, Jesus warned his disciples “in no uncertain terms” to keep their eyes open and “look out for the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” — Mark 8:15
What is the leaven of Herod?
Insight in the Scriptures brings out “The disciples at first did not understand that Jesus was using a symbolism, but they finally discerned that he was warning them to be on guard against false doctrine and hypocritical practices, “the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees,” which teaching had a corrupting effect. (Mt 16:6, 11, 12; Lu 12:1) He also mentioned Herod (evidently including his party followers) in one of his warnings, saying: “Keep your eyes open, look out for the leavenof the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” (Insight p. 230)
In more detail, under “Herod” it brings out “Both of these sects, the Pharisees and the Herodians, or party followers of Herod, opposed Jesus Christ and his teachings, and though they were at enmity with each other, both saw Christ as a common enemy and were united against him. The Herodians were more political than religious; it has been said that they claimed to follow the Law but maintained the opinion that it was lawful for the Jews to acknowledge a foreign prince (for the Herods were not true Jews, but Idumeans [Edomites]). The Herodians were very nationalistic and supported neither the idea of theocratic rule under Jewish kings nor Roman rule, but they wanted the restoration of the national kingdom under one or the other of the sons of Herod.” (Insight p. 1096)
So to sum it all up, we have a multi-generational group of lawless men who ruled over God’s people right before, during and right after the coming of Jesus, who lyingly passed themselves off as faithful Jews but, in the end proved themselves enemies of God, his Son, and his people. And to top if all off, in the end we have Herod Agrippa, who places himself in the judgement seat and exalts himself above God, only to be done away with by Jehovah’s angel.
All very reminiscent of 2 Thess 2:4,8:
4 “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.”
8 “Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.”
Lastly we have Agrippa Il, who Paul witnesses to (Acts 26:4-32). He’s the only Herod that doesn’t seem to fit anywhere within this pattern. But not sure if he needs to? If any of you have any thoughts where he might, please chime in. 🙂
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