The Time of the End

//The Time of the End

This article is an enlargement of a previous post with the same title originally published in 2003

Most people dismiss the possibility that the world might end someday. They go about their lives without giving it a thought. Others, though, might be heard to say: ‘Yes, the world will end some day. But not in my lifetime.’

On the other hand, some suppose that the end of the world is inevitable, even imminent, and will come about by means of some mega catastrophe, like a comet or asteroid crashing into the earth —as made popular by several blockbuster Hollywood movies. Apparently a significant YouTube audience even believes that earth is going to be devastated by a mysterious planet X that has been lurking in the outer regions of the solar system —undetected by astronomers.

Then there is the multitude of evangelicals who expect to be beamed up to heaven before seven years of tribulation destroy the planet. But, alas, their expectations are even less likely to materialize than the aforementioned.

But for certain —all of the popular end-of-the-world scenarios aside —by the decree of God this world is going to meet up with a violent, catastrophic end. It is as sure as tomorrow’s sunrise.

But it is not as people imagine. The end will not result in the destruction of this beautiful planet, nor will the human race cease to exist. The end of this world will be the beginning of a new world. That is good news —in fact, the best possible news!

Oftentimes you hear churchgoers say that the world will be destroyed by fire just as it was once destroyed by water. And, of course, the Bible book of 2nd Peter expresses God’s judgment using the symbolism of fire. But, obviously, the earth itself —terra firma —was not destroyed by the Flood of Noah’s day. Nor was mankind completely wiped out. Instead, one world passed into oblivion and a fresh, new world, ensued. We —everyone alive —are descendants from Noah and his three sons. And the earth that was ravaged by that watery cataclysm has long-since been renewed.

What was destroyed by the Deluge and what will be destroyed again is made plain by the apostle, where he wrote: “But by the same word (the word that stored up the waters of the heavenly ocean on the  Creation) the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.”

According to the letter of Peter it is “ungodly people” who are going to be destroyed. That is the “world” that is going to come to an end. It is going to be a selective destruction —survived by an innumerable group of godly people.

NIBIRU TRAJECTORYBut God is not going to simply drop the hammer from out of the blue yonder. The end is not going to just come out of nowhere —like the mythical planet Nibiru. And to be sure, millions of people are not going to mysteriously vanish in rapture, as portrayed in the popular Left Behind fictional series.

Before this wicked world meets up with its inglorious demise God has determined that there be what might be termed as a concluding phase —a period preliminary to the actual end of the world, during which time a great test will be imposed upon mankind —a test that will determine the fate of everyone on earth during that critical juncture.

Jesus referred to the great test to come in the book of Revelation. Speaking to a faithful few, Jesus said: “Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth. I am coming quickly. Keep holding fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown.”

What exactly is the “test” that Jesus foretold will come upon the whole world? The language is similar to that which Jesus used when talking about the great tribulation that will suddenly come in upon the entire inhabited earth. Revelation reveals the test will come about due to Satan demanding that all give allegiance to his earthly political system or face death.


Although the Watchtower teaches that the hour of test began over 100 years ago, obviously all the world has not been put to the test over the past century. Besides, several generations have come and gone since 1914. The “hour of test” denotes a relatively short period of time relative to the length of a single generation —a generation that Jesus said would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. It is reasonable to assume that the hour of test coincides with the one-hour that the eighth king is allotted to rule the earth.

Can the actual length of that symbolic “hour” be determined. Yes, it can. But first, what is the time of the end?

In prophecy this concluding interval is referred to variously as the time of the end, the final part of the days, the last days and the conclusion of the system of things. All these phrases are common to Jehovah’s Witnesses as expressed in the New World Translation. Other translations use similar expressions, such as the end of the age, or the end of the world.

The expression “the time of the end” is found in five different places in the book of Daniel. When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, the angel explained to him that he had “come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days to come.”

The Watchtower has long-taught that the world entered into the foretold “final part of the days” and “the time of the end” in the year 1914. Is that true though? The importance of this is that the time of the end marks the beginning of the presence of Jesus Christ. So, really the question is: Did Christ return in 1914?

The Watchtower teaches that the original destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE was the beginning of a period of time Jesus referred to in the 21st chapter of Luke as “the appointed times of the nations,” and that prophetic period ended in 1914 when Jesus was given the Kingdom. But there is no justification, whatsoever, in the Watchtower’s assumption that Jesus intended his disciples to believe that the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations had begun five centuries earlier.

The disciples had asked Jesus on the Mount of Olives to clarify his earlier statement regarding the overthrow of the temple and the holy city. In response Jesus told his disciples to look for a signal —that when a disgusting thing stood in a holy place then the end of Jerusalem would be imminent. They were to flee immediately. And Jesus went on to state that Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations until such time as the “appointed times of the nations” had ended. Clearly, Jesus was foretelling a future trampling of Jerusalem.

Not only is there no justification for 1914 as being the end of the “appointed times,” but more importantly the grander fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy concerning the conclusion of the system also involves the trampling of “Jerusalem” by a disgusting thing during a great tribulation that would engulf the entire inhabited earth, which Jesus linked to the prophecy of Daniel.

But the Watchtower makes no connection between the trampling of the holy place, spoken of in the eighth chapter of Daniel, and the desolation and trampling of Jerusalem and the holy place, about which Jesus spoke. And although the Watchtower claims that the foretold trampling of symbolic Jerusalem ended in 1914, according to their interpretation of the eighth chapter of Daniel the holy place was trampled again during World War II by both the Allied and the fascist nations!

Another notable inconsistency in the Watchtower’s interpretation of the prophecy of Daniel has to do with what is written at Daniel 11:35, which reads: “And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a cleansing and do to a whitening, until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.” 

According to the Society’s commentary on this verse in the Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy book, those with insight that were made to stumble by the king of the north had to do with Soviet agents that had infiltrated the organization by posing as Jehovah’s Witnesses. On page 275, the Society wrote:

“The time of the end, must relate to the end of the period of time needed for God’s people to be refined while enduring the assault of the king of the north. The stumbling evidently ended at the time appointed by Jehovah.”

While the KGB infiltration of the organization in Russia is fascinating history to be sure, it does not appear to be what the prophecy relates to. Clearly, the Watchtower has arbitrarily interpreted the expression “the time of the end” to suit their own private interpretation. They have violated the use of that very specific term as it relates to a particular time period. For, if Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the time of the end began in 1914, and you accept Daniel 11:35 as pertaining to a period during the Cold War, how is it that the scripture says that the time of the end “is yet for the appointed time”? The Watchtower has obscured the intended message of the prophecy by assigning a totally different meaning to the simple expression – “the time of the end.”

Apparently, some of those having insight that are made to stumble are not those far-away brothers in Russia, but they are much closer to home. They are those who presume to teach Jehovah’s Witnesses these vital prophecies, but who resort to cleverly contriving artificial interpretations of prophecy that will ultimately test the faith of all of Jehovah’s Witnesses who rely on the Watchtower for spiritual guidance.

Daniel 11:40 relates what is to occur during the beginning  of the time of the end, where it says: “And in the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through.”

The Watchtower had originally interpreted this portion of prophecy as applying to the USSR and the USA during the period when those two antagonistic blocks of nations engaged in a pushing contest with each other in a Cold War stand off. But in their latest commentary Bethel’s interpreters have pushed the “pushing” all the way back to 1914 and have stretched the period of the “pushing,” like a super-stretched piece of elastic band, to apply to most of the 20th century! Furthermore the prophecy indicates that the “pushing” escalates into a storm-like flooding over by the king of the north. But according to the Watchtower the “pushing” and the flooding-over go on simultaneously over the course of many decades.

Besides the obvious artificiality of that interpretation there is also the matter of the identity of the king of the north. Here it is been more than two decades since the Soviet Union unceremoniously dissolved and by the Watchtower’s own admission they have no idea who the king of the north is presently, as if there were not one.

But one of the features of the time of the end is that the scroll of Daniel will be unsealed –  meaning, it will – at last – be understood. That being the case, if the time of the end began in 1914, why is it —now over a century into the  supposed time of the end when the scroll was presumably opened —there is this big question mark about the leading political entity that fulfills prophecy during the time of the end?

Moreover, the Watchtower claimed that the Soviet Union ruled over the hidden treasures of the American king of the south during the Cold War. This is simply nonsensical. Historians recognize that the USSR bankrupted itself trying to keep up with America in their so-called arms race. America won the Cold War. The USSR lost. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not seem to grasp that reality though.

The reality is the time of the end did not begin in 1914. Virtually everything the Watchtower has interpreted from Daniel and Revelation and all the rest, is in error. Soberingly, the beginning of the time of the end is in the future, though imminent.

Meanwhile, the king of the north – manifest now, as before, as the British Empire and its latest incarnation of the London-centered global financial system, is locked in a pushing with the nation-state system,  the so-called Westphalian system of independent, albeit cooperative states. The central banks and their plethora of mega banks are absolutely being used to conquer nations and peoples of Europe. They are pushing them to the brink of  slavery. Greece most dramatically demonstrates how nations may be conquered and plundered without even being overrun by an army with pointed bayonets.  They are being dictated to by the supranational Trioka. 


“For the scene of this world is changing” wrote the apostle nearly 2,000 years ago. And those inspired words have never been more applicable as at this present moment in time.

Many would be inclined to agree with those words, perhaps citing climate change or the latest innovations in software or electronic gadgetry as world changing.

BRICSBut the most profound change of this world —one with the farthest reaching ramifications anyway —is in the political and economic arena. The emergence of the BRICS nations and the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure and Investment Bank is paramount. Why? Because the emanation of the Russia/China-led economic alliance signals a tectonic shift in power away from the USA and Europe to Asia. After all, China and India alone represent nearly half of the world’s population!

Because the Anglo-American duo have called the tune for the past two and a half centuries the new power bloc constitutes a direct challenge to the hegemonic aims of London and Washington. Actually, power has resided in Europe and by extension in America since Alexander’s empire. This is in accord with prophecy. That being the case, we should not expect that the inheritors of the Roman Empire will simply walk off the world’s stage without a fight.

Given the historical record of the countless wars waged by the great empires, and the resoluteness on the part of China and Russia not to bow before the Empire’s demands —there is very little likelihood that matters can be settled peacefully. A decisive confrontation is inevitable and, in fact, has already begun.

What is most disconcerting is that the two competing blocs of nations are nuclear powers and also possess lesser known weaponry of incalculable destructive power. Because of that it is doubtful that the conflict will be resolved solely by means of conventional warfare. Ironically, though, the use of even a limited number of nuclear weapons would devastate the very system each seeks to dominate.

What we are faced with is the end of a system that has existed for centuries. Or, the end of the world if you prefer. To be sure, it is not some visitation of disaster from outside of the human realm. The time of the end is characterized primarily by one of the oldest plagues that has afflicted mankind —war!

We may be certain that the now-onrushing conflict will devastate the present economic and political system. The good news is it will commence the period  known as the time of the end. How long will that period last?  God is allowed for the nations to recover from the impending collapse and from the point when the last king arises for the appointed “one hour” the Scriptures indicate the interval will last approximately 3 1/2 years. Afterwards Satan’s wicked world will be obliterated and a new world will emerge. 

2017-12-29T07:34:14+00:00 August 5th, 2015|Daniel|64 Comments
  • muldoon55 .

    Thank you Mr. King for your excellent explanation of the real meaning of the time of the end and how world events will play out. Also your new website is superb.
    There are many (me included) who have for one reason or another found themselves outside the JW org but have always realized what the truth is and Gods’ purposes for this earth.
    To return to that physical org would be unbearable for I would never receive the encouragement due to the shunning practice. And from the enlightenment I’ve received here, I would be in a perpetual state of being disfellowshipped for what I believe are sound facts all with the ring of truth.
    I wish more bros and sisters would look to your site and wake up. Thanks and keep up the great work

    • Jonah Peter Paul

      AGREE with you. I too together with my husband hope that many more people benefit from this website and the articles and precious information that brother Robert has shared with us here. We are trying our best to call in more people and let them know that whatever may have happened to them, a place like this exists and they are welcome to learn the truth, unfortunately not everyone is interested with the truth. In the end, it is their loss not ours.

      • e.v.g

        Sometimes I feel disappointed with the attitude or indifference that some people are displaying, but when I read the Gospels that makes me think in this wonderful man Jesus, He was interested in helping people, Jesus is a wonderful example of love and endurance, the love that He feels for his father and people makes me feel that there is hope in this crazy world, sometimes I think Why I do keep doing this? well, I think Jesus had a good reason to live when he was on earth, Jehovah has a lot of things to teach in the future, that is a good reason to continue, but most difficult will be during the hour of darkness, it will appear that there is no future, no life. Isaiah said about the coming situation of God’s people:
        “For a brief moment I abandoned you, But with great mercy I will gather you back In a flood of indignation I hid my face from you for a moment, But with everlasting loyal love I will have mercy on you,” says your Repurchaser, Jehovah.
        I was baptized around six years ago , I keep trying to understand many things, this wonderful man, Jesus, changed the life of many people, of course his love for Jehovah is the main reason that he endure all things , I think he is the path and our best example of love, brother Robert has a good reason for keep doing this job, he is working for Jehovah and Christ, he is changing the minds of many people, preparing the faith and giving understanding regarding the presence of Christ.

  • Bklyn Kevin

    Nowhere in the bible does it say or indicate that the time, times, and half a time as said by Daniel in 12:7, as well as Johns 1260 days or 42 months “should last one hundred or more years,”but that’s what the watchtower would have you believe.

    Again I say there is no textual proof in the context of these prophecies to indicate or prove that these 3 1/2 year period should last a hundred or more years .
    This 3 1/2 year time period is the “short period of time” which John brought to our attention in Revelation 12:12 when he said”
    On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a “short period of time”.

    And this short period of time is a literal 3 1/2 years when Satan the devil is hurled down to the earth in the near future and then the one hour test begins particularly with the two witnesses or 7000 and this is the generation that Jesus is speculating about at Matthew 24:34 when he said”Truly i say to you that this generation by no means pass away until all these things happen.

    Now Daniel as well is clearly speaking about that same generation concerning that “short period of time” when Satan is cast out of heaven.
    Daniel clearly said it will be for a appointed time, appointed times,and half a time, which is the equivalent of 3 1/2 literal years.
    Daniel gives no indication that this great tribulation should last 100 or more years, However he does clearly tell us it will last for a 3 1/2 year time period Which is a relatively “short period of time” in the scheme of time.
    If one closely scrutinized the end time prophecies concerning this false parousia as put out by the watchtower they will soon come to realize that the watchtowers 1914 scenario is a deluding influence
    put forth by the man of lawlessness who dwells among Christ brothers. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.
    However when Jesus does arrive in his authentic parousia ,
    That generation will most certainly witness the simultaneous fulfillment of all the prophecies that Jesus had spoke about in the book of Matthew Within a 3 1/2 year time period, ’cause that’s what the scriptures allude to,
    Unlike the watchtowers 1914 false parousia which has been ongoing for more than 100 years without any scriptural proof or justification .

    In view of the scriptural evidence, it’s obvious the watchtower is spiritually intoxicated / drunk On their own truth and have fallen asleep and are misleading many others.
    Don’t be misled, the 1 hour test is imminent. Revelation 3:10. Matthew 24:36
    So make sure of all things as john instructed us when he said ”
    Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with GOD, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1 John 4: also read 2 Thessalonians 5:21

    • e.v.g

      It will be hard for some JW’s reject the 1914 hoax during the true paraousia, for example the jews were very stubborn about the mosaic law, they couldn’t understand the true meaning of the law, but now the watchtower is giving a preparation for the coming of Christ, with talks about morality, spirituality, preaching work etc… (Regardless the pharisaical attitude that rules inside the congregations) The watchtower is deeply entrenched in JW’s heart, this org. has been glorifying himself with books and magazines, the hand of God is too much for JW’s, because they are loving the org. instead of Jehovah.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        It’s apparent that bethaven has been deceived as Eve was and their minds have been corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ . 2Corinthians 11:3. Hosea 4:

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Brother Robert I greatly appreciated Your August 26 commentary Which helped me to correct my wrong assumptions concerning the two witnesses .I had assumed That the two witnesses were going through the test at that point , I didn’t realize that the two witnesses were already accepted into the kingdom of GOD. THANK YOU.

      • e.v.g

        Jehovah will accept greatly His faithful worshipers after the test during the great tribulation
        ( again,Romans 5: 3-4) my wife have a participation in the congregation school (i don’t know how to say it) about E·li′jah and the prayers, I will help my wife with the information that I have learned on this site, specifically in this respect. Jehovah will hear the prayers after the tribulation that will come over His people, in a special way.

    • Jamie Mac

      Hi Kevin, I enjoyed both your comment and Robert’s article. I have been reading a few articles recently just to clarify things regarding this very subject. Have you noticed more and more people are saying Satan has already been ousted from heaven. I think even Robert alluded to this in one of his articles saying that it was possible. Things seem to be moving very quickly but as yet we have not seen the collapse of the global financial monster currently controlled by the City of London. Does this coincide with Satan’s ouster?

      I think I need to take stock and reflect on all the possibilities. It can be a bit mind boggling trying to make sense of it all. Am I the only one thinking this way?

      • Bklyn Kevin

        I see Satan already fallen like lightning from Heaven.


        So, while we can only see and hear what takes place in the visible world, there is an unseen world that is at war. And the enmity between Christ and Satan goes nuclear, no doubt literally, when war breaks out in heaven and Michael and his angels overthrow the Devil and his angels. Satan’s ouster initiates a period of time known in the Scriptures as the time of the end, or the conclusion. During that short period of time the world over which Satan rules will be subjected to a catastrophe unlike anything that has ever occurred before or will ever occur again.

        Although we cannot see Satan literally falling from heaven, we can see the effect his ouster will have on earth. The prophecy of Daniel foretells that in the time of the end the kings of the north and south will engage in a pushing and the king of the north will flood over all the nations. That symbolic flood brings the king of the south under subjection to the empire, effectively putting an end to democracy. Similarly, the eighth chapter of Daniel depicts a fierce looking king who keeps throwing truth to the earth (war propaganda) and who will ultimately bring to ruin the mighty ones of this world along with the prospective heirs of the Kingdom.

        Contrary to the delusion propagated by the Watchtower, these earthshaking events are in our future. But it should not be supposed that it is the distant future. Read more>.

        The return of Jesus Christ will be a monumental event. His coming down to this earth will coincide with world war, widespread food shortages, great earthquakes and global pandemics. The judgment of the house of God will then take place. Jesus’ presence will place a unique test upon Jehovah’s Witnesses, for the obvious reason that Jehovah’s Witnesses ardently believe that Jesus returned long ago and has already accomplished the judgments outlined in prophecy. The future coming of Christ will confront Jehovah’s Witnesses with the unsettling reality that not only have they been duped into merely believing a falsehood, but virtually every publisher and pioneer has personally participated in a campaign to convince the world of what amounts to a fraud. It is a very serious thing to speak and teach lies in the name of Jehovah.
        Read more>

        Persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses
        The persecution that will be unleashed will serve as discipline from God. The development that will bring the present

        system down will coincide with the ouster of Satan and the demons from heaven in advance of the final confrontation at Armageddon.

        Jehovah’s Witnesses will then find themselves in unchartered waters —inundated in a raging flood of persecution with no legal protections. This is what is foretold in numerous prophecies. For example, the 28th chapter of Isaiah likens God’s judgments to a flash flood and thunderous hailstorm. Read more>

      • Thinking

        No I think that as well….I’m tending to beleive he was thrown down on Jesus returning to heaven…don’t know if I’m right..but I’ve been reading of the massive unbelievable persecution of the annoited after his death..the unbelievable cruelty and brutality in the way they died….also most of the apostles….it was a most fierce hateful persecution .
        It was a massive retaliation on satans part for Jesus Christ and his victory…

        I know revelation does talk about future events in the main part…but it also talks about the woman and birth of the child…which happens long before the end days fortold in Revelation….
        I know the key must be in Revelation some where to back this up but I cannot find it…..
        I’m going by history..earthly events..patterns..of the past…and I know that’s not enough to convince any one,,,but it’s enough to convince me he’s down here now…
        As to why we have had peace at times..I’m sure Jehovah only allows so much damage to be done to mankind until the preaching work is finalized…..thus the restraint( preaching work/ wt..not sure which or both) is in place…holding him back ( Satan ) from totally bringing the earth and mankind down….and holding Jehovah back from his appointed time..

        I cannot prove this brother scriptually at this point ..but nor do I beleive that he has yet to descend or thrown out has been proven scriptually either …
        Personally I feel there is a danger in waiting for this to come about ….as it says it will not come with striking observerablness…and why our overwhelming councel from the scriptures to stay awake…
        Nor do I want to be caught with my pants down waiting for an event that seems to have already happened …..
        Still …I have always trained myself to expect the unexpected….
        Let me know if you yourself find something….but these are just my own personal beliefs …at this stage of the game anyway..( smiley )

        • KB

          I think we are surrounded by good and bad spirits all the time, kind of like in that movie “city of angels”. Not necessarily gaurdian angels, but maybe something like that. I think the angels can come and go and move about from earth to Jehovah’s heavenly realm at will. I think the demons can too, and Satan as well. At some point the demons and Satans ability to freely come and go will be terminated, they will be confined to earth. This action of kicking them out of heaven will really upset them, which will result in chaos on earth. Even though wickedness is everywhere, we ain’t seen nothing yet. JWs I know always talk about how bad things are, and how things can’t get any worst. Well guess what, when Satan and the demons are confined to earth there will be no question about it or not.
          It will be like the scripture in Amos 5:18 ‘Woe to those who yearn for the day of Jehovah! What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean for you? It will be darkness, and not light. 19 It will be like a man who flees from a lion and is confronted by a bear, And when he enters his house and leans his hand against the wall, a snake bites him. 20 Will not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light; Will it not have gloom, and not brightness?
          The day of Jehovah is when Christ is truly ruling things and has kicked Satan and the demons to earth. Every turn we make will be hard to endure.
          Mt 24:22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
          We are gonna face a great tribulation at some point in the future like mankind has never seen. It’s not gonna be a news story about hardships others are facing in a third world country. It’s gonna be catastrophic events world wide that effect everyone on planet earth. That’s the only way each ones faith can be tried and tested. So, yes, Satan and the demons have been causing trouble on earth since Adam and Eve fell victim to the first lie that was ever told. But right now, in my neck of the woods, things ain’t so bad. One things for sure, it could change over night. May Jehovah help us all, when his day has come.

          • Thinking

            Hi Brother…that scripture in Amos..Could Also mean it will be like that for those that are spiritually naked….it’s when the confusion will set in..because they are expecting things to go one way…and it won’t be like that…it will all happen upside down and inside out for them…because they have not kept awake…it’s the confusion that will make it seem like that verse…
            ITs how they will feel when BTG is still standing and we are bought to nothing…their faith will be tested like never before and they will feel as if they have been deceived and tricked ..just as the Israelites felt when Moses led them to the Red Sea….led them into to an apparent trap…..
            it will be all gloomy and dark and just getting worse and worse for them as they won’t understand why it is happening..they will feel like they have run from one bad place and into something worse because nothing will be as they were told..
            All witnesses…well most..seem to think we are going to have some form of protection..when it won’t be like that at all…that’s when those scriptures will come into play for them…and probably us too but not to the same extent as we are not so spiritually naked…

            REVELATION 16:15
            look happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments that he may not walk naked and people,look upon his shame fullness.

            MATHEW 24 21….
            I tend to go with Perimeno explanation on this…that day that is cut short is actually the day of Jehovah…it certainly is a great tribulation as never before…even more so than the flood….and yes he chooses to cut short that day of his for the sake of the chosen ones…
            If he allowed his day of wrath to continue there would be nobody left…not even the chose ones …

            You can see this because he says there will never be such a tribulation like that again???….yet Jehovah’s day will cause so much more tribulation than the apparent Great tribulation we all have pictured in our mind….because he says he will make man a rare thing on the earth…
            This is Jehovah’s day here at Mathew 24:21…..

            I’m not saying that there is not tribulations or great tribulations leading up to this as Vs29 point out…there is….critical times..are all tribulations….

            Remember in Vse37 of that chapter states…many will still be marrying and eating and drinking and not taking any note….how can that be so if the world is in such calamity because Satan has suddenly been hurled down??

            If things are going to be so bad amongst mankind ..necause Satan has now been hurled down… can some be doing every day things and taking no note…..
            It just doesn’t add up…

            • Huldah

              Hi Thinking
              I know this is an older comment, but you brought up that the GT may be Jehs day.
              I always thought it was fascinating that the same wording of it being a greater tribulation than ever occurred or will again is used in Exodus about the killing of the Egyptian firstborn.
              Interestingly at that time no faithful Israelite was harmed. It was Jehs final and most devastating plague on the Egyptians.
              This made me wonder if the great tribulation applied to Jehs final judgement on the wicked rather than all the events of the time of the end, due to the fact that it only effected the Egyptians severely.

              Just a side thought.

            • Thinking

              Hi Sis,
              Well I didn’t know that wording ..greater tribulation and that exodus account is very interesting the way you tied that in…well not ties it in but even seen it…very interesting…I don’t want to start a debate or anything ..but it’s just what I beleive at this time…it’s Perimenos thought or understanding and I’m careful what I say as I know RK and all here think I’m trying to be respectful and not bring it up..but you asked so ..yes. I beleive he calls and end to the Great Day of Jehovah ..otherwise there would be no flesh left..and he stops it on account of the chosen ones…
              So many are waiting for it to get so bad that he steps in because of those scriptures saying their would be no flesh left…but just between you and me and every one else reading PERSONAL belief is it IS THE GREATER TRIBULATION ..OR his APPOINTED TIME..aka’s his own day that he has to put a stop to….otherwise there will be no flesh left…

              I didn’t know about that phrasing you just spoke of….this is a very interesting point you have bought out…

            • Huldah

              I think there’s more to the GT than we may understand, but it is logical that armageddon is the worst time of all. Jehovah does say (of himself) ” I am going to make mankind rare as the gold if Ophir.” Is 13:12.
              HE will do this not the nations. ie ‘no flesh would be saved’

              Jury’s still out.

              For reference
              Exodus 11:6 is the text I referred to earlier.

            • The Raven

              But if the only people left when the beast rules at Armegeddon are already divided into two camps, those who took the mark of the beast and those who did not, then why would he have to shorten the time he kills all those who follow the beast? Jehovah’s people will not be harmed during this time since they are not His targets. That’s what doesn’t add up.
              Now if it were at the start of the tribulation when the horsemen ride, when the nations collapse and go to war especially with thermonuclear weapons, then I could see Him intervening to save some of mankind. Most people will not expect anything like that occurring and I could see them carrying on about their lives. Nuclear war will be sudden destruction for sure. Just a few thoughts on this.

            • Huldah

              Isaiah 10:21
              21 Only a remnant will return,

              The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.+

              22 For though your people, O Israel,

              Are as the grains of sand of the sea,

              Only a remnant of them will return.+

              An extermination has been decided on,+

              And justice* will engulf them.+

              23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,

              Will be carried out in the entire land.+

              24 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, says: “Do not be afraid, my people who are dwelling in Zion, because of the As·syr′i·an, who used to strike you with the rod+ and to lift up his staff against you as Egypt did.+ 25 For in a very little while the denunciation will come to an end; my anger will be directed to their destruction.+ 26 Jehovah of armies will brandish a whip against him,+ as when he defeated Mid′i·an by the rock O′reb.+ And his staff will be over the sea, and he will raise it as he did with Egypt.+

              I’m looking at the word “extermination” in the Bible. This text is interesting.

              What keeps hooking me in on this alternative viewpoint is the fact that the GT is the worst thing to ever happen to humankind in general. I think the death toll from Armageddon will be worse than that from even a nuclear conflagration. Isn’t the scope of a tragedy usually measured in body count?

              Or are we talking about the worst humans have ever done to one another?

              The chosen ones point does present a problem. The timeline flows better using Robert’s reasoning on the GT.

              Zeph 1:18
              18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them in the day of Jehovah’s fury;+

              For by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be consumed,+

              Because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”+

            • The Raven

              Not necessarily body count, but finality. The death of all the evil ones. The unrepentant. That’s who the final judgments are poured out on.
              War and the ensuing famine and pestilence will lay waste to billions. That is what the goal was, to reduce the population to manageable levels. Once the beast arises and people take the mark, they are doomed. There could still be hundreds of millions here at the time. They will be the ones exterminated. Not His people. Considering the earth’s population and what’s left after Armageddon His people will be small in number in comparison. We already know that. But the great crowd can still number in the millions.

            • The Raven

              I’m thinking it doesn’t really matter how many are killed. It matters who is and why.

            • Huldah

              True in the greater scheme of things but in reference to the GT, I think the disciples would have understood it to mean the greatest carnage, death, destruction to ever occur. I really believe that is what Jesus meant.

            • The Raven

              I can’t remember offhand which book it was but there is a description of the judgement on God’s house meted out in thirds. If I am not mistaken that gives a lot more detail on what’s to happen to His people. I’ll see if I can find it tomorrow. My eyes get a little funny at this late hour. lol.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Ezekiel 5:2-4 🙂

            • The Raven

              Close enough. Thanks Arvid. It’s Ezekial 5: 11-13

              11 “‘Therefore as surely as I am alive,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘because it was my sanctuary that you defiled with all your disgusting idols and with all your detestable practices,+ I will also reject* you; my eye will not feel sorry, and I will show no compassion.+ 12 A third of you will die by the pestilence* or perish in your midst by famine. Another third will fall all around you by the sword.+ And I will scatter the last third in every direction,* and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+ 13 Then my anger will come to an end, and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be satisfied.+ And they will have to know that I, Jehovah, have spoken in my insistence on exclusive devotion,+ when I have finished unleashing my wrath against them.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hello Raven 🙂
              Look one more time at verse 2-4 in Ezekiel chapt.5 and compare it with verse 11-13…(the best way is ofcourse to read the whole chap.4 an 5 first)
              I wonder what else do you see in those verses?
              Btw..i like your comments and your deep and honest love and interest in Jehovahs written word :-)…by doing so,you are in very good company on this site…soooo many fine and lovley brothers and sisters on this site 🙂

            • The Raven

              I saw the descriptive correlation of the judgment in those verses. Consigning some of the “hair” to the fire, some to be scattered and some to being saved in the folds of the garments. It of course denotes what’s to become of His people in a metaphoric way.

              But what I was after was a more direct statement of the actual judgment. Sometimes it helps to stick to the basics. lol!

              And thanks Arvid. I can spend many hours reading the responses here and yours are wonderful!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              It is fasinating to “dig” in Jehovahs word…his “fingerprints” are all over the place 🙂
              the same goes for everything He has created on eath and in the whole universe…amazing,beautiful and all done in this absolute wonderful way down to the smallest detalj..
              As pure white snowflakes falling quietly down and make a winterwonder-land so beautiful …and if we like to we can look closer at those snowflakes and be totally amazed because of their pattern that is unique for each of them…
              And the same goes for everything around us…all can be looked at just as it is ,and it is beautiful…and if we like to,we can look really close and be totally in awe about what we see 🙂
              The never ending future will never be boring…Jehovah has made everything in a way that we can study it for ever and alwayes be fasinated about it 🙂

              That journey is what we all have just got the oppourtunity to start on together 🙂

              (conserning the judgement that you were looking for the direct statement of…it is interestingly repeted 3 times in 3 different ways,in chap.4 and 5…=Jehovahs way of making a statement to be understood as absolutley sure…somone was/is going to be very humiliated…also illustrated in 3 different wayes…Ezekiel pictured those who is going to be humiliated..Jehovahs own people..he was tied with ropes,had to cut of all his hair and beard and bake over manure.

              Those judgement were and will be presented/preformed by somone from the” outside”..who belongs to the little remnant of hair that is protected in the folds of the “garment”….)

            • The Raven

              Exactly. Much of scripture is veiled to those who are not conscious of their spiritual need. Those who seek Jehovah are those who are shown what these deeper things mean. And we never stop learning. There are many times I search for one thing and find another. Maybe God’s way of saying, “You need this right now, not that”.
              I have never read the bible from cover to cover. But I have read the bible many times over. How? Start with one book and the corresponding verses will lead you through all the rest.
              I started with Revelation. I’m STILL reading. Lol!
              I think you know what I mean , Arvid. It is amazing how this has all been kept together for us to explore and come to an accurate understanding of His word.

            • The Raven

              I am wondering if the 390 days are part of the 3.5 years. It seems to me it would be. This looks like it describes a specific event within that time for Jehovah’s people.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Ore maybe it is part of the 2300 days :-)….(Dan.8:13-14)
              Try to put it all on a timeline…just take a paper and a pen…draw a strait the left end you put a mark and call it start…in the right end you put a mark and call it happy ending ore first day in paradise.

              This is the case:we do not yet know when the 2300 days begin…but we do know that they one day will start 🙂

              So there you got the start of that periode of time and the end of it..

              If we say that the 1335 days end on the same day as the 2300,then you go from there and back to find your mark for where the 1335 days begin.

              Once more you go from where the 1335 days end (on the right side)
              count back 45 days and you put a new mark where the 1290 days end and from there you can find where the 1290 days begin.

              The 1260 days begin on the same day as the 1290 days.
              So if you go from there you can find where the 1260 days end.
              And on the same day as the 1260 days end is also when the 69 weeks end.
              from there you can find where the 69 weeks start.
              Than you can also add the last week after the 69 comes the 70 week.

              Than you shold be ready to start your study and put in the events 🙂

              With a timeline like this you get a periode of time of big events in less than 7 years.
              Why not exact 7 years?
              I do not know…cut short maybee? 🙂
              PS…Do not put all your trust in this…i am only a human and often wrong 🙂
              An as i said…we do not now yet when this periode start…we will when Jehovah opens up…

            • sally

              I am no good at Math. But maybe the 2300 days has already started?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Yes…thats often the way it works…when we read the Bible we see that they often understood things afterwards…and regarding math…the good news about the Kingdom is not for the wise one in this world…even a child can understand the most important things…the “Door” is open for every one who belive in Him 🙂

            • The Raven

              I also tried doing that and came up with the same . There seem to be a division between the first 3.5 years and the last. Kevin’s comment on that also agrees, as do I. I think maybe the first part from nuclear war is cut short but I see no reason for Armageddon to be since the only ones who perish are the wicked at that point. But you’re right about the unknown . I find it fascinating. Thanks for going through that. I’m looking at this some more. I also find the left and right side may have some significance as to the position of God’s people relative to their views of the “temple” juxtaposed with that of the authorites.

            • The Raven

              Ezekial 5: 11-13

              11 “‘Therefore as surely as I am alive,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘because it was my sanctuary that you defiled with all your disgusting idols and with all your detestable practices,+ I will also reject* you; my eye will not feel sorry, and I will show no compassion.+ 12 A third of you will die by the pestilence* or perish in your midst by famine. Another third will fall all around you by the sword.+ And I will scatter the last third in every direction,* and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+ 13 Then my anger will come to an end, and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be satisfied.+ And they will have to know that I, Jehovah, have spoken in my insistence on exclusive devotion,+ when I have finished unleashing my wrath against them.


              Ezekiel 14:21-22 reiterates God’s purpose to use “four injurious acts of judgment”: “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘So, too, it will be when there will be my four injurious acts of judgment—sword and famine and injurious wild beast and pestilence—that I shall actually send upon Jerusalem in order to cut off from it earthling man and domestic animal. But, look! there will certainly be left remaining in it an escaped company, those being brought forth. Sons and daughters, here they are! They are going forth to you people, and you will have to see their way and their dealings. And you will certainly be comforted over the calamity that I shall have brought upon Jerusalem, even all that I shall have brought upon her.’”

              “The parallel between Ezekiel’s prophecy and the opening of the seals of the Apocalypse are unmistakable. Inarguably, nation arising against nation, food shortages and pestilences are to serve, not only as the future sign of Christ’s presence, but the very means by which Jehovah sets himself on judgment with the Christian Israel of God in order to purge from it the unfaithful and discipline and gather the remnant of approved chosen ones – so that they may know that he is Jehovah.”

            • The Raven

              The timeline does flow better with Robert’s explanation, I agree. I am familiar with Perimeno’s work but it leaves a few gaps which Robert has explained well. The pieces fit a lot better IMO. Cutting short the initial war would be neccesary given the world’s arsenals. Jehovah will not allow man to kill everyone.
              I do know that all those who call on Jehovah at the time when judgement is poured out will be saved. So, it would stand to reason that Armageddon is not cut short, no… because it is a very fast event anyway, in fact heaven’s army rides full speed to annihilate the wicked, sparing none of them.

            • Huldah

              As I read what you wrote here ( last sentences especially) I immediately thought of the 185,000 Assyrians, precise and controlled. Is there any biblical precedent for Jeh having to stop his destructive angels once they get started?
              So it appears that it may be that the GT is cut short by Armageddon?
              There in Is 10 it says that Jehovah will rescue his remnant by destroying the Assyrian, which would be Armageddon.
              I haven’t read your reference yet.

              On body counts. I’m not convinced that the death toll from the 8th kings genocidal efforts will be worse than that of Armageddon. When the news reports on an event, first measurement of the carnage is deaths then injuries. Also, those who die at Armageddon die the 2nd death, the largest mass execution of 2nd deathers. Just a point to the idea that the GT is the greatest tribulation that ever occurs. Unless, of course we are talking about only what humans have done to each other, then I would likely concur on what the 8th king does.

              I see the flow and logic of Jeh stepping in to stop the 8th king.
              I still feel that the worst that will ever happen to mankind will be Armageddon though.
              I’ll read the reference and see if it knocks to the right side of the fence.

            • The Raven

              It’s not the eighth king who starts the first part of tribulation. Its the collapse of the present anglo/ american powers that it begins with; the seventh beast who receives a mortal head wound.

              The eighth king is the beast who is healed from his wound and is ruling when the GREAT tribulation and judgment begins. Now he will be the one that people will betray each other to. He is used by Jehovah to mete out punishment. But only to a degree. After he slaughters the anointed and rises up to attack Jehovah’s sheep He goes headlong to his death against heavens armies . The sheep will be protected at Armageddon.

            • Huldah

              Interestingly, the Wt separates the “tribulation” of those days to be different than the GT. I tend to agree with this because Jesus says,’ and after the tribulation of those days, the sky will be darkened, the sun will not give it’s light, etc.’
              I agree this is the fall of the US, but notice that Jesus goes on to describe events during his presence as after the”tribulation of thosr days”. The WT says this refers to fall of BTG….NOPE.

              I think the GT is not the same exact period as the presence. We use it as a general term, but I tend to think it has a narrower meaning. Of course, I’m still learning the specifics of what Robert writes. I’m a judicial minded person so I’m keeping open until my roots are firmly fixed in this one.

            • The Raven

              That’s what Robert has written on the matter. That’s why what happens first with the seventh king’s collapse and war are the start of tribulation. He states those days must be cut short to ensure the survival of the chosen so the can make a final witness during the rule of the eighth king. This also signifies the devil being thrown out of heaven and the world being in turmoil. The horsemen ride. The sword, famine and pestilence. One fourth of ALL of humanity perishes. The sheep are scattered and confused.

              The watchtower is wrong about this. Much of what Robert has written has been to clarify the misconception that exists since they claim most of the seals have already been opened. We know that is ridiculous.

              There are several distinct periods within the tribulation which are detailed concerning not just the world but specifically His people. This all culminates with judgement, which only begins after the seventh beast is healed from his mortal wound and arises to become the eighth beast to take power. That’s when the great tribulation begins. That’s when we all get a choice; the mark or not. That judgment applies to everyone, not just JWs.

            • Huldah

              What I understand is that the 7th head revives but doesn’t become the 8th king as the 8th king “springs from the 7” heads not the 7th head. It appears that the 7th revives in a weakened state as all 7 heads give their power to the 8th king, which is a UN based world Govt.

              I’m convinced there are two tribulations, the GT and the “tribulation of those days”.
              In Matt. 24:21 Jesus shows that the GT starts after the disgusting thing or 8th king “stands in the holy place” or attacks God’s people.
              Since that’s pretty clear, I can’t agree that thr Gt starts at the fall of tge AAmer power but at the attack by the 8th king on JWs.


              I read this article to try to get a clearer picture. It would appear that the marking may be simultaneous with the testing of the holy ones, the 3.5 years.
              I can’t see how the marking happens first and everyone makes a choice, then the testing occurs. It doesn’t seem completely logical that Jeh would test us without their being a possiblity to pass or fail. I realize it’s refining too ( I TOTALLY get that as refining is already happening to me and it’s nightmarish misery.)
              I’d love to be able to believe that I can’t fail as would my husband, don’t get me wrong, but a test is a test. It proves you for better or for worse.
              My belief, based on experience, is that this sort of proving/refining happens to us as individuals, if we put our lives in Jehs hands and will be, eventually, forced on all JWs in the end, whether they willingly submit to trials and training or not. They will have to take a real stand for the truth.
              Kind of a side point.

              As regards the mark. It being on your right hand signifies one is giving human rulership theirpower and it dominates their focus and favor as tge right hand is the dominant one. It being on their forehead is like the scripture torah cases the pharisees wore, showing tge scriptures dominated their devotion and thinking( a pretense).
              I believe it’s both symbollic and literal. As I look at witnesses, I can often see what dominates their energies and focus, basically keeping in step with the world.
              The choice many have already made in their hearts will be made manifest by their actions during a test where they must put their money where their mouth is.
              I think the mark is part of the 3.5 year test period. Then Jeh brings back a chastened remnant of those who did not succumb but allowed themselves to be refined by the crucible.

              You’re forcing me to sort stuff out in my head and delve deeper into Robert’s explanations. Needed that.

            • The Raven

              The test is whether we take the mark or not during the rule of the eighth king. That is within the 3.5 year time period. There is no more test after people are marked. There are only two camps by then; those who are and those who aren’t. Then, Armegeddon. that’s it.
              The seventh beast which is the anglo/ american alliance recovers from the mortal wound. That is clear. That’s what makes the nations wonder at it admiringly. They are the king of the north and the king of the south. The king of the north will prevails and the king of the south loses.

              “This striving of two competing kingdoms and ideologies is in harmony with what is also revealed in Daniel concerning the struggle between the kings of the north and south and explains the incompatible iron and clay amalgam that does not stick together. It perfectly symbolizes the modern Anglo-American dyad, which is the uneasy alliance of imperialism and republicanism. But, as noted previously, one force wins out. Apparently “the king of fierce countenance” is the champion of the empire.
              “There will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings”

              “When organized religion is eventually annihilated by the 8th king, as Jehovah’s Witnesses have expected for some time, the prophecy says that even the kings of the earth who gave their power to the 8th king will “stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘too bad, too bad, you great city.’” Under the circumstances of any sort of global catastrophe and international crisis, it does not require a vivid imagination to envision the UN requisitioning the world’s armies and even nuclear weaponry so that no individual nation would dare challenge its power. In this way the king fierce in countenance must become mighty in power.

              “And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will prove successful and do effectively”

            • Huldah

              Great references. I still think there is a subtle difference between the revived 7th head and the 8th king as if the revived 7th is its chief propagandaist. To me, saying the US changes from Democratic to Dictatorial is one thing, but this new dictatorial nature does not change it into a completely different entity. The eigth king is an entity comprised of all world govts, the ten horns that rule with the wild beast for a short while.
              Maybe I differ with Robert just a bit or maybe I just need to read more of his explanations. I’d like to look into what he’s written on the two horned lamb.
              At any rate, you and Kevin are a nice compliment to Robert’s writings on prophecy as you are making it more clear to me.
              No forcing felt, just an expression.

            • The Raven

              I could not for the life of me figure out why all these beasts, horns and king s were thrown in like they were from several different books. Then I found this article and it made a lot more sense. Check it out. I think you’re going to be pleasantly surprised. 🙂


            • The Raven

              The thing to remember in all these transformations is the king of the north. He figures throughout this from the seventh beast to the final eighth. He is empire. The feet of iron and clay. The US is greatly diminished and all it’s assets are employed by the eighth beast to subjugate the world.

            • Huldah

              Yes Robert’s insight into the empire vs man saga that the Bible presents is key to understanding the beasts and rulerships. “Man has dominated man to his injury.”

              I just believe that each empire is distinct in that all before are distinct until they are supplanted by another empire. It is inconsistent with all 6 earlier empires that ended and were supplanted to say that the 7th becomes the 8th. No other empire became the next, but is distinct from it, not that they don’t absorb some of their assets and ideologies. I think this idea is key to how all things will line up in the end as the US has a role, but it is not the eighth king anymore than Rome is the Anglo American power. I’m staying by this subtle difference because I believe there is a small piece of the puzzle that is better understood in keeping these two separate in your mind.

              Probably won’t have much time to look into it today, but maybe sometime.

            • The Raven

              I suppose since we know he is the one who will speak blasphemous things and also meets his end at Armegeddon it is a simpler way to explain the eighth beast getting power from the revived duo of the seventh. The image, the beast, the king of the north are really part and parcel of the same force which will stand against Jehovah.

              “Since the miraculously revived beast gives command to create an image of the beast and it brings the image to life, it is apparent that the revival of the soon-to-be-killed Anglo-American system will not be in the form of the present, familiar nation-states, but rather a totalitarian government, that will then transfer national sovereignties to a supranational authority, an empire, also known as the eighth king. That will bring an end to the king of the south. This last king – likely in the form of a greatly empowered United Nations – will show no regard for the God of his forefathers by destroying the established institutions associated with it, symbolized in Revelation as the destruction of Babylon the Great. “

            • Huldah

              It is supremely logical that the revived head will turn tyrannical. It will, in an ominous sense, ‘not go quietly into that dark night, but rage against the dying of the light’.
              Whenever I used to encounter a dog in service, I would look to see if it was showing signs of fear as I always felt that that a threatened animal was the most likely to bite. (Also the tiny little ones with Napoleonic complexes, LOL)

              The destabilizing effect of the deathstroke will have nasty repercussions (Natzi Germany comes to mind). I suppose the same can be said for Satan’s ouster from heaven.

              I’m still reading up. Good excerpt.

            • The Raven

              LOL! Yep! The yapshire terriers and the Chihuahuas are the worst!

            • The Raven
            • The Raven

              I tripped over this article when I commented on Robert’s tweet and I was surprised to see it had a direct bearing on this matter as well. Explaining the difference between the wars and also elaborating on how the king of the north figures all the way through to the end.

              ( All below is quoted from the article)
              “Instead of the somewhat ambiguous phrase “a great military service,” some translations simply say “a great war.” Rephrased in that light then, what war did Daniel envision that caused him such distress? Was it the war of the great day of God the Almighty at the place called in Hebrew, Har–Magedon? No. That was not what the prophet envisioned.
              In view of the fact that an angelic emissary appeared to Daniel after his 21-day period of mourning and then revealed to him the entire matter of truth beginning with the development of the rival kings of the north and south after the demise of Alexander the Great, all the way down to the yet-to-commence time of the end and the subjugation of the American king of the south, it is apparent that the matter concerning “a great military service” is what we moderns will soon recognize as World War Three.”

            • The Raven

              Huldah Quote:
              “You’re forcing me to sort stuff out in my head and delve deeper into Robert’s explanations. Needed that.”

              lol. We ALL need that. 🙂

            • The Raven

              Here’s a clearer view of the matter about the kings. The resurrected head and the king of the north are the same.

              “That aspect of prophecy is reiterated in Revelation the 13th chapter, which states: “It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.”

              The “it” is, of course, in reference to the seven-headed wild beast; specifically, the revived head that was slaughtered. That the revived beast is allowed to speak great blasphemies against God – even blaspheming his personal name – it is evident that the resurrected head of the beast and the final manifestation of the king of the north are the same entity. Since there is nothing in history that can be pointed to as proof that the Anglo-American duo have suffered anything approximating the sort of collapse betokened by the death stroke to the seventh head of the beast, it must be concluded that the prophecy of the king of the north speaking astonishing things against the God of his forefathers has not been fulfilled either.

              Since the miraculously revived beast gives command to create an image of the beast and it brings the image to life, it is apparent that the revival of the soon-to-be-killed Anglo-American system will not be in the form of the present, familiar nation-states, but rather a totalitarian government, that will then transfer national sovereignties to a supranational authority, an empire, also known as the eighth king. That will bring an end to the king of the south. This last king – likely in the form of a greatly empowered United Nations – will show no regard for the God of his forefathers by destroying the established institutions associated with it, symbolized in Revelation as the destruction of Babylon the Great. “

            • The Raven

              The 8th king will be the fiercest ever known. Once he rules he terrifies the rest of the nations into accepting him. They will marvel at his power and they give him their power and devotion or he blows them into oblivion. Scripture states he will devote many to destruction. That doesn’t just apply to God’s people, it means everyone. We know some of us will be confronted by him when we are betrayed. So, we could be looking at a huge number of deaths here as well. He rules for one hour, a short period of time. During this time many will betray each other and turn away from Jehovah. We won’t be able to buy or sell without his mark. We find out then just how strong our faith is. But, as he nears the end of his rule with everyone on earth following him except for God’s people, the anointed give a final witness before he goes off in a rage and kills them. That initiates Armageddon. That battle wipes the slate clean, the 8th king and all his followers are dead, the devil is abyssed and those who have made it through become the first earthly subjects of heaven’s new kingdom.

            • The Raven

              This might help:
              “Christ’s first mention of his parousia in the context of the unfolding of the features of the sign places his presence as occurring after nations and kingdoms rise up against each other in war; after famines and pestilences sweep the world; after the disgusting thing desolates a holy place.

              The other cited verse similarly states: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”

            • The Raven

              This may make it easier to understand the metamorphosis/transition of beasts, horns and kings. Through this all the king of the north figures prominently. Please read the entire article at the link as it answers MANY of the questions you have.
              All the following are excerpts of Robert’s article:
              When it comes to interpreting prophecy it is wise to recognize that all prophecy is harmonious and complimentary. Take for example the fact, that, just as the seventh chapter of Daniel portrays a beastly horn speaking great blasphemies against God, so too, the 13th chapter of Revelation depicts a wild beast that opens its mouth to speak great things and blasphemies against God. And just as the boastful horn is allowed to dominate the holy ones for a prophetic three and a half times, the beast of Revelation does also, expressed as 42 months.
              Any honest consideration of these three prophecies by those who are not under the Watchtower’s hypnotic influence ought to lead to the conclusion that since the 11th horn of the beast of Daniel and the revived seventh head of the Revelation beast, as well as the king of the north, all are described in the exact same way – as speaking great blasphemies against God – they must, therefore, represent the same earthly kingdom. For that matter, the king fierce in countenance in the 8th chapter of Daniel does too.
              In truth, the appearance of the 11th horn, the slaughter and revival of the seventh head of the beast, and the success of the king of the north over his nemesis, all depict the same future event – the crash of the present system and the imposition of a new world order under the rule of the prophetic eighth king of Revelation. How can that be stated with certainty?
              Consider the 13th chapter of Revelation again, specifically the 9th verse, which states: “And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.”
              The mandatory worship of the beast is imposed upon the world in the aftermath of its revival from a death stroke upon one of its heads. The revived head then gives life to the image of the beast, otherwise known as the eighth king. That begins the hour of test upon the entire inhabited earth – coinciding with the one hour allotted to the eighth king. And as Revelation states in numerous places, those who worship the beast or its image do not have their names written down in the scroll of life. In other words – they are doomed to the second death. The reason for such a harsh judgment is because the eighth king will be a competing kingdom with the kingdom of Christ. And those who obey the beast will alternately disobey the then-ruling Savior.

            • The Raven

              Huldah, it appears the mere remnant that returns are the anointed.

              “Interesting too, Isaiah 9:6 introduces the coming Messiah as the Mighty God and Prince of Peace, whereas Isaiah 10:21 states: “A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.”

              “The Mighty God” in the context of this passage of prophecy is a prophetic reference to the Christ at his second coming. The “mere remnant of Jacob” that return to him are the so-called anointed remnant – those spiritual Jews remaining on earth after the first resurrection begins, who, together, are the true seed of Abraham.”

            • Huldah

              My belief about this scripture has always been that it shows that, though there may be a large number of JWs, only a portion or remnant will come out of the GT/Arm.
              It seems to indicate that many will fail under test, not surprisingly.
              The attack and judgement will come upon anointed and other sheep.

              I do see why Robert applies this to the anointed mainly as the Israel of God.

            • The Raven

              The attack from the beast just before Armegeddon comes upon the anointed. For witnesses (or anyone for that matter)to fail means they took the mark of the beast. There are only two options here. His sheep are not attacked at Armegeddon. He protects them as Christ and the armies of heaven slaughter the wicked.

              But before this he judges His house and this is the result:

              “Consider a passage in the 30th chapter of Jeremiah: “‘For I am with you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to save you. But I will make an extermination among all the nations to which I scattered you; however, you I will not exterminate. I will discipline you to the proper degree, and I will by no means leave you unpunished.’

              This implies it’s going to be bad, but not fatal. That as we know is reserved for the true apostates and lawless ones. We also know the beatings are administered according to level of guilt. Even the ignorant are beaten, albeit it lightly.

              I tend to agree the few that come out; the remnant can apply to both the anointed and the great crowd. But, I also think since He calls them a great crowd, there will be millions.

            • The Raven

              Stopping the man made war at the start of tribulation on account of the chosen ones would be a way to keep them alive so they could stand up after the beast begins to rule and give the final witness. They are killed by the beast just before Armageddon. Their deaths trigger it.

  • Matthew 24:37
    37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

    Mark 13:1-37

    14 “However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation+ standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+ 15 Let the man on the housetop not come down nor go inside to take anything out of his house; 16 and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment. 17 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days!+ 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation+ such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again.+ 20 In fact, unless Jehovah* had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen, he has cut short the days.+

  • The Raven

    I’m guessing Huldah’s comment is awaiting moderation because of its length? I can’t reply to it until it’s okd.

    • i don’t see any comments awaiting moderation.

      • The Raven

        Here is the link address. It states, awaiting moderation. I can expand it but I cannot reply to it.

      • The Raven

        I don’t know why it does this but I have noticed that lengthy comments sometimes appear collapsed and with this statement:
        This comment is awaiting moderation. Show comment.
        I can click on show comment and expand it but there is no reply button. Disqus glitch maybe?

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