What Do The Seven Times Mean?

//What Do The Seven Times Mean?

This article was prompted by a question from a reader. For more questions from readers see the Mailbag.

If Christ’s presence didn’t begin in 1914 like Jehovah’s witnesses teach, how do we explain the chronology Jehovah’s witnesses use to lead up to 1914, that is, the seven times, or 2520 days? 

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It seems reasonable that the seven times has a broader application than to just the literal seven years that Nebuchadnezzar was dethroned – otherwise, why use the prophetic term “times” and not simply “years”?

But the Watchtower’s “seven times” chronology is extrapolated from various other chronologies and prophecies and predicated upon the “appointed times of the nations,” about which Jesus spoke in connection with the desolation of Jerusalem and the conclusion of the system of things – the assumption being that the appointed times for the nations to trample Jerusalem began when Nebuchadnezzar sacked the sacred city five centuries before Christ; the rationale being the appearance of the word “times” in both prophecies.

1984WT0415The most conspicuous flaw, at least in my view, is when his disciples asked Jesus when the rebuilt city of Jerusalem and its temple were going to be thrown down again, their question and his answer had to do with the future desolation and trampling of Jerusalem, not an appointed time that had already begun centuries before when Nebuchadnezzar originally sacked Jerusalem. Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, are curiously oblivious to this simple fact.

Another incongruity of interpretation is that Jesus spoke of the appointed times for the nations to trample Jerusalem in context with the disgusting thing standing in a holy place. So, it is evident that the disgusting thing is the same political entity as the collection of nations that are allotted an appointed time to trample God’s holy city, which is made clear in the seventh chapter of Daniel and the 11th chapter of Revelation. Still, though, the Watchtower makes no connection – completely divorcing the appointed times in Luke from its immediate context regarding the desolation of Jerusalem by the disgusting thing – or, the “encamped armies” as it is expressed in Luke.

To further emphasize the artificiality of the Society’s interpretation, the Governing Body claims that the “Jerusalem” that is destined for desolation during the coming great tribulation represents Christendom, while the “Jerusalem” a few verses further on in the same chapter symbolizes the kingdom of Judah and by extension the messianic kingdom.

However, when Jesus spoke of the disgusting thing that will bring desolation to God’s holy place Matthew referred the discerning reader to the prophecy of Daniel, the eighth chapter of which foretells that the sanctuary and holy place of the Prince of princes will be desolated by a fierce looking king during the time of the end. In another apparent contradiction the Watchtower claims this took place during World War Two – more than 20 years after the time allotted for the nations to trample “Jerusalem” supposedly ended!

Furthermore, as regards the tree of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, the interpretation Daniel was inspired to provide indicates that the tree and its banded stump represent the Babylonian monarch. True, the reason the Most High was compelled to assert his own sovereignty over Nebuchadnezzar was because the Chaldeans had conquered the city of Jehovah and overthrown the Judean kingdom that God had instituted.

jRcG7EeTLBut all things considered, since the tree with its top in the heavens that was felled by the angelic watcher unquestionably primarily symbolizes the Babylonian kingdom, how is it that the twig from the stump of Jesse also sprouts from the banded stump of Babylonian rootstock? There is nothing in the prophecy of Daniel that indicates the massive tree may also symbolize the Davidic kingdom, as well as the king of Babylon.

And while the point of the lesson is that God is sovereign and he can appoint the lowliest of mankind to rule, as he so chooses, and certainly Jesus qualifies as mild tempered and lowly in heart, God originally demonstrated his power in this matter when he reinstalled Nebuchadnezzar to his vacated throne, after he had been debased lower than humankind and humiliated during the seven times of his beastly madness. And not only that, but God maneuvered the exiled Jew – the lowly slave, Daniel – to be exalted to become the third ruler in the entire kingdom. But, to be sure, ultimately the Kingdom will be given to the holy ones of the Supreme One.

However, the question is, if the seven times are not to be understood in the way the Watchtower has presented, then what significance do the seven times have, if any?

But, again, before considering the possible answer to that question, first consider another more searching question: How could the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses be so thoroughly wrong about something so vitally important as the return of Christ? The scriptural answer to that query may help us to understand why the enigmatic seven times may lend itself so handily to mischief-makers.

“Concerning the presence of our Lord”

“However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.” 

At II Thessalonians chapter two Paul foretold the presence of a man of lawlessness prior to the manifestation of Jesus who would be empowered by Satan the Devil to run an operation against God’s people to convince them the parousia of Jesus had already begun and the day of Jehovah is here. Paul forewarned there would be official sounding declarations and letters written as though from the apostles themselves, making these bold assertions. And Paul went on to say: “That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.” 

So, God lets a deluding influence mislead his people in order for them to believe the lie. What is “the lie”? According to the context it is the lie that the presence has begun and the day of Jehovah is here, which the Watchtower has announced since before 1914. (Up until around 1930 the Watchtower maintained that the parousia began in 1874.)

The fact that God lets a deception go forward is significant.

For purposes of illustrating a point, consider the absurd doctrine of the Trinity for a moment. John 1:1 is the cornerstone for the belief that Jesus is God. Obviously, the All-knowing Jehovah knew Satan would move men to render the verse into other languages in a way so as to say: “And the Word was God.” Of course, God could have easily moved John to author the passage differently so that it might not be so easily misconstrued. But obviously he did not choose to do so. God is very considerate. He allows a deception to work upon all who do not wish to know him. If people wish to believe Satan’s lies, God graciously supplies them the biblical justification, however meager.

To be clear, though, the 1914 lie is not nearly so pernicious as the innumerable lies sponsored by the churches, which prevent a person from knowing even the simplest truths about God, his character and purpose.

However, “the lie” God allows is intended to bring unbelievers into judgment at the coming of Christ. Think about it: What are Jehovah’s Witnesses going to do when the now-looming world war erupts, accompanied with widespread food shortages and global pandemics? Will they accept the fact that the Watchtower has promoted a lie and misled them? And what if the Watchtower refuses to acknowledge the delusion, but adds to the deception during the actual presence by perhaps becoming the source of even more misleading messages claiming the Christ is in the wilderness and the Christ is in the inner chambers? Those who cling to the delusion or whose faith is wrecked entirely will, in effect, refuse to accept Christ. Then the words of Christ will come true: “Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.” 

So, that is why God allows for this deluding influence, of which the dubious application of the arcane seven times is undoubtedly the foundation. It is my conviction that the deeply held erroneous belief that Christ came in 1914 is the underlying basis for a massive shakeout among Jehovah’s Witnesses in the immediate period just ahead. Essentially, the Watchtower is complicit in concealing Jehovah’s judgments from Jehovah’s Witnesses until such time as they are revealed from heaven.

Now as regards the question as to whether or not the seven times have any relevance beyond the seven years of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness, the answer is most likely yes.

stumpCertainly all the dramas played out in Babylon and recorded in the book of Daniel have prophetic significance. That would included the drama involving the golden image and the three Hebrews being cast into the fiery furnace; Daniel being thrown down into the lions’ den and emerging unharmed; the enigmatic writing on the wall, and the appearance of Christ-like materialized spirit entities that enlightened Daniel, prefiguring the Transfiguration and the parousia. Surely those events are what the Society has appropriately termed prophetic dramas. (See the Daniel blog)

Taken together the dramas and prophecies presented in Daniel reveal various aspects of the developments leading up to the coming of Christ and the ultimate triumph of the holy ones at the conclusion. Why should the prophecy of the banded tree stump be the exception? That is not reasonable.

That brings us to another commonality in the prophecies of Daniel, which also harmonizes with numerous other prophecies, Psalms and Revelation, having to do with the tumult resulting from the sudden downfall of the leading nations of the world, which coincides with the arrival of Christ and the commencement of judgment day. The felling and regeneration of the symbolic tree compliments those other glimpses into the future.

deathstrokeTo illustrate the point, the seventh chapter of Daniel foretells that the appearance of a little horn that will humiliate three kings. (As Nebuchadnezzar was humiliated.) The eighth chapter envisions a fierce looking king who will bring the mighty ones of earth to ruin during the time of the end. (As Nebuchadnezzar’s majesty was brought to ruin.) The 13th chapter of Revelation portrays the slaughter of one of the heads of the seven-headed beast, which then recovers. (As Nebuchadnezzar was figuratively killed and brought back to life to continue his rule.)

And each of the aforementioned prophecies also has chronology attached to them.

There is also a notable similarity between the heaven-high tree symbolizing Nebuchadnezzar and the towering Egyptian cedar – also called an Assyrian – the language describing both being nearly identical. It may be that the banded stump that regenerates coincides with the revival of the beast from its head wound and the offshoot of the eighth king. After all, as we know, Babylon, Assyria, Egypt and the modern Anglo-American empire are all part of the same beastly, political apparatus, which will ultimately give rise to the last king whom Christ will annihilate. Elsewhere in prophecy the last king is depicted as the Chaldean. 

As for the seven times, keep in mind that the scroll of Daniel is secret and sealed up until the time of the end, which is future.

So, while it is possible to say what is not true because of it being out of harmony with related prophecy and reality, such as the Watchtower’s interpretations of Daniel, it is not possible at this time for anyone to say with 100% certainty what is the true interpretation. The meaning of the seven times may be one of the things God has held in reserve. (Isaiah 48:6)

Granted, a seven times interpretation that fails to divine the esoteric day and hour of Jesus’ return is not nearly as captivating as the Watchtower’s, but who wants to be captivated by a demon-inspired delusion? 

 

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2016-12-08T15:11:45+00:00 June 25th, 2014|Page Two|40 Comments
  • Leonard k

    one can not help but wonder how the jehovahs witnesses came up with this false 1914 doctrine when you have the truth right in front of you here. however Jehovah does allow for this operation of error as a test of faith. this is a great article.

    • Leonard, I appreciate your support and all, but could you please use a different Avatar? It might confuse some readers. Hey, it confused me. For a minute I thought I posted something and had no recollection of it. lol

      • Shikinah

        Yes I did find the Avatar a bit confusing, was lost for a minute lol..

      • lol i dont remember this happening. i forgot. was it a picture of you? ha

  • Andres Felipe

    To say that “time” should have prophetic significance? How you say Robert Watchtower passages extrapolates an envelope another without any explanation. For example: applying the rule “a day for one year” this prophecy of Daniel. But it is perhaps a “rule”? And if it was, that in my opinion it is not, when you can apply? If chapter 4 of Daniel has another application is not obvious. Now, we can say the “weeks” of Daniel chapter 9? It is quite confusing. The rule itself one day per year would apply in this case but I would not be consistent.

  • Frank Haensel

    Is it fair on Jehovah´s part to allow a deluding influence to stumle JW´s? Just think of all those simple but honest brothers that don´t have the discernment. This isn´t a game – I believe lives are at stake.
    As far as the lies of Christendom – lets Just take John 1:1 and the trinity. Hasn´t Satan won then if people are misled all their lives just to lose them at Harmageddon.
    Just a thought

    • For the most part JW’s have no idea they are under a deluding influence. The test will come when Christ arrives. Then all the things that Jesus said would occur will take place; wars, food shortages, pestilences, etc. Then if anyone denies the reality that is before them because it doesn’t fit with what the WT said, yeah, they deserve to be stumbled. And, yes, it is fair on Jehovah’s part to impose a test of that sort.

    • Richard Long

      Frank, are you in some great pain that needs comforting, or should I just stay out of this?

      • Frank Haensel

        I´ve been in pain for over 40 years. Became a witness in Brooklyn – moved to Germany and from the start I rejected GB hierarchy and most of all – depicting Jehovah as a God of Death – which is what they did and are still doing. My thoughts then – if Jehovah is going to wipe out most of humanity during GB and Armageddon – Satan is actually the winner.
        Preaching the good news is actually a farce – rather spreading a message of condemnation.
        I´m afraid that Robert King also tends in this direction – mass destruction of most of mankind.
        Wow, great solution. How do we differ from Christendom? OK no hellfire: so what.

        • Maybe you aren’t keeping up with current events, or are experiencing psychic shutdown, whatever, but the US has been relentlessly driving the nations toward an inevitable nuclear war for the past few years. Apparently, you want to blame God for the stupidity of your fellow humans. That makes you part of the problem. But according to Jesus, God is going to intervene or else no flesh will be saved.

          • Frank Haensel

            I´m as much a problem as Abraham was when he asked God about the death of righteous ones in Sodom. Not blaming Jehovah just questioning OUR reasoning. I had to shut up about it for 40 years in fear of being called an apostate.
            Socio-political situation? I´ve probably collected much more data than you think – possibly more than you have, about current developements and past modern history. It´s been a lifelong interest of mine.
            But why not stick to my honest questions. WT claims that all victims of the GT die forever – Jehovahs judgement, no resurection. I think that is your position too if I´m not mistaken.
            Now my question. These unfortunate souls never had a chance. A tiny number possibly heard the good news. The most didn´t. Why were they born and why did they die.
            Can´t Satan claim that he is right and has been right all along?
            I´m not agreeing with his stand, far from it. Can it be that we are missing something.
            Isn´t it smug of us to say we are in the truth and will have Jehovah´s protection. Kind of like once saved always saved.
            I don´t want to piss you off and I´m not attacking or criticizing you in any way just asking those questions that have been plaguing me for 40 years. And the point that Jesus made when he said “He is the God of the living”.
            Maybe its just me and I´ve watched “The Road” too often or thinking about the next EMP attack. Sharpen those critical thinking skills!
            My my, you do get up early!

            • A few billion are going to be killed in the war, famine and pestilence that leads up to the tribulation. The good news for them is that they will receive a resurrection. Like it says in Revelation, Hades was closely following the four horsemen. But after the beast arises from the abyss those who obey it reveal that they do not support Christ’s Kingdom under even the most dire circumstances. They will have to go to prepare the earth for those who accept Christ. Admittedly, as Jesus himself said, many are on the road to destruction. Only a few are on the path to life.

            • Frank Haensel

              Well atleast they have a chance.
              So I´ll trod on with a heavy heart. 5 children and 6 grandchildren most of whom are disgusted by the WT and therefore reject most of it. I wish they had a chance!
              Oh yes! Can Satan claim Jehovah is cruel? Sooner or later we will be comfronted with that claim. How do we answer Satan.
              Thanks alot for taking the time to respond.

            • The Raven

              Hi, Frank. They do have a chance. This comes down to two very different aspects of the final days. This may help explain it as it did for me:

              https://e-watchman.com/there-was-a-great-military-service/
              “Rephrased in that light then, what war did Daniel envision that caused him such distress? Was it the war of the great day of God the Almighty at the place called in Hebrew, Har–Magedon? No. That was not what the prophet envisioned.”

              “it is apparent that the matter concerning “a great military service” is what we moderns will soon recognize as World War Three.”

              https://e-watchman.com/new-world-order/
              “The mandatory worship of the beast is imposed upon the world in the aftermath of its revival from a death stroke upon one of its heads. The revived head then gives life to the image of the beast, otherwise known as the eighth king. That begins the hour of test upon the entire inhabited earth – coinciding with the one hour allotted to the eighth king. And as Revelation states in numerous places, those who worship the beast or its image do not have their names written down in the scroll of life. In other words – they are doomed to the second death. The reason for such a harsh judgment is because the eighth king will be a competing kingdom with the kingdom of Christ. And those who obey the beast will alternately disobey the then-ruling Savior.”

              There is a LOT of room here for people to make a choice. The casualties of WWIII go to the grave, not judgement. They return in the new world. Those who survive and see the beast take power are given a choice. A choice they will all know and understand. That is when judgement takes place. By then, there will be no excuse. We stand with Christ or in direct opposition to Him with the beast.

              I don’t blame anyone for being disgusted by the WTO once they learn the truth about these matters. That’s really not an issue. They have NO power over you other than what you give them. If I may suggest this; concentrate on your own standing with Jehovah and His son, our savior, Christ. I explained this to my own family and they too have accepted this. That org is in line for a “shaking” and although many still participate in the preaching work, they too see where this is going. Some can handle it and have elders that don’t press the issue and others are dealing with intransigent control freaks and chose to leave. I believe Jehovah will deal will all of us accordingly.

              I did go look at a comment you made a year ago here and was not surprised at the miserable behavior of some at the KH. But this is not unique to JWs. I’ve seen it before among those who profess Christ. They too become the people they throw rocks at. They ignore or snap off short harsh replies when in disagreement or resort to some very spiteful acts as did those at your hall. In other places it’s called “ghosting” and it’s very similar. The reasons are many and it shows them for what they really are.

              http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/christian-ghosting-destructive-christian-practice-dont-talk/

              I wish I could say more to you but I speak from the perspective of one who never got past first base with the JWs. I believe the basic truths but could not go further. Take my words as a humble attempt to explain that Jehovah considers all things, especially those sighing over the wrongs. Satan is the one who hasn’t got a chance.

            • Richard Long

              Very reasonable comment

              (Between us: You did NOT go look at backstory! NOT YOU!!!!) lol

            • The Raven

              I am glad I did. Looks like Frank’s dealt with a lot. Sadly, many of these stories have a familiar ring to them.

            • I hate to say it, but I think a lot of JW’s are happy to find a reason to be disgusted with the WT. It gives them an excuse to leave. Let’s face it, if a person doesn’t have a real longing for God being part of a group like JW’s that requires a very high degree of commitment would be very hard to bear.

            • Daisy d

              Are Christians committed to a “group” Robert?

            • If that is a question, the answer is, Of course 1st century Christians were committed to the group. That is what Christ’s congregation is – a group. It doesn’t mean that are not problems and causes for stumbling. Obviously there were many difficulties. The Corinthian group seems to have had the most problems. That is why Paul wrote his inspired letters to various congregations to help them deal with people problems in the group so as to not be stumbled out.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes that’s true….superfine apostles, squabbling over circumcision, things offered to idols….it sounds as though they were anything but focused. Already back then, they were putting themselves above the congregation and ignorant of the purpose and task of the Christians. When one considers the population and the closeness of brothers in those days, that was no small degree of corruption. Upscale it to today, add the pressures and you have an average religion, no more corrupt in the eyes of the public than the Catholics and others like them, but in fact, still with many good hearted honest adherents preaching the word.

              I can understand why the question is asked. It feels quiet natural when one knows the truth of the matter to be utterly reviled by what we see, but the judgement is not ours. The sadness is not ours, though we feel it. Not even the dissapointment, because although all these things prey on our mind, the vengeance is Jehovah’s. I try to view it as the Titanic. It’s holed, it’s drawing water like a flood, it’s going down by the bow, it’s tearing apart, but who in their right mind is going to jump off it when it’s certain death within a few minutes once you’re in the water once you are separated from it. No. Everyone was looking to the ships lights on the horizon, hoping against hope that it will get to them before death is inevitable. We had to get on it, we cannot get off it. I don’t go, it’s true, but though I condemn what it does, I support the truth of its message and leave it to Jehovah. I’m not sure what else we can do. I don’t feel I can separate myself from it and neither would I until the rescue boat gets here. Then I’m off…pronto.

            • Frank Haensel

              Burt, that is the viepoint of my wife – a very humble good hearted believer. She is obedient to the org. but at the same time says she will wait on Jehovah to judge the GB if they are apostate.
              It´s funny. I have so much evidence or even proof of corruption BUT it doesn´t work with her and she is sticking to her faith and I have to respect her for it. She´s not the critical thinking type but rather leaves everything in Jehovahs hands.
              It hurts me to see her go to the KH alone with my 2 daughters. Atleast the Elders are leaving me alone.
              Nice discussion here. Seems you all know eachother.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I don’t think, from what you say, that you and your wife disagree with each other on the truth. Waiting on Jehovah to judge individuals is a good thing though the expression is also used by the watchtower to cover up the holes in their thinking. The issue has to be seen for what it is, to get the balance of conscience right. You both have the same attitude. The watchtower, are like any religion, or even just a group of people like a government. Perhaps government is the best analagy. You have honest hearted people going into it to ‘make a difference’ you have people going in it merely to plunder expenses, take kick-backs and bribes for representation, money launderers acting for big business, strategists for making money, and plain evil people to serve themselves for all they can get….no matter how. Hitler, Stalin, chairman Mao. The penalty they pay, is that they have to be seen to be doing good, thus we get a form of government. Without which, man would run wild. We all know that. So the public vote for it. So it is with the watchtower, loosely put. The institution, the idea, the theory of government is good. Jehovah is going to set his own government up. At present, he uses the watchtower, to do the good part of his will….warning people he is coming. If that is not true, then are we to say the watchtower did all this for nothing, off their own bat, with pure motivation? It’s a two edged sword.

              I know there are a lot of holes in the analagy, but all one is asked to do is hold the handle of the sword and wait for it to be used properly. The fact that your wife is waiting if perhaps unseeing faith in the whole picture, shows that she is at least awake to the issue and will be alert to make the correct choice when shown to her. Your knowledge would be a good guide at that time in explaining to her what is seen. But to do that, you have to be in there with her, either metaphorically or physically….you decide….to support that decision making. Let’s face it. Who are we to call the kettle black, when we ourselves are laden with sin, though not so obvious as that done in public by the watchtower. We are no more deserving. If we displayed such revulsion at our own sin as we do that of the watchtower, we would be better people. The best way to protect our families is to do do in unity. It’s difficult to say at which venue, that unity should stand at this time. But that is our choice.

            • The Raven

              This begs a question and I hope for your consideration. I truly believe Russell and Rutherford were acting under an operation of error. Given the times and circumstances they faced, especially Rutherford, I am inclined to think he did believe the world was coming to an end in their days. But… after he passed form the scene and subsequent leaders appeared, at what point did this error become known to them? I contend that there is a line of demarcation here and that when the error was known they made a conscious choice to continue promoting it. That is when it became a lie to them. That was also when they had to defend and support it with more lies. I think, IMO that there is no longer an operation of error and now the “deluding” influence is fully supported by the MOL. That MOL arrived when that decision was made. When was that?
              Given the org is now fully involved in promoting these things can anything they do inre those they stumble be considered justified at all? When a corrupt judge or cop is discovered the courts throw out convictions and retry people. I would not expect Jehovah to do any less.
              Can we really say that those who do not accept those lies are actually folks who do not have faith or commitment to the truth? I don’t doubt that some leave to pursue the things of the world but…what about us? I have been hamstrung trying to explain this to people who have read your articles. Yes, they are disgusted and heartsick over these matters. I am at a loss to understand how your work cannot be taken for anything but disgust at what has happened. Please consider my words as I stand in a precarious place myself as do others here.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well you’re right in that if the mistake was genuine, it must have become a lie when that mistake was uncovered and they had the chance to put it right. The whole thing has welled up over that choice and which has been permitted to do so.

              The Christians in 70 AD were told quite plainly to get out when they saw the disgusting thing, and as has been shown here often, people will be left in no doubt. They will have two stark choices. We are promised that.

              It seems to me, we often try to fill the gap of faith in the bridge of truth, by trying to factualise the faith people will need to take that leap. We cannot do that. It would no longer be a test of faith even if we could do that. That is for them to see through. It is a fact in psychological terms that some people will lie in the face of all evidence to the contrary. As the choice will be as plain as that, what the question boils down to, is not that they are presently aware or are ignorant of the causal fact, but of their faith and heart motivation when it is revealed. We do not need fact to recognise good from evil. Adam did not. We need belief in Jehovah, and faith in his teachings, and the developed sense of love to recognise the difference between the the lie and the truth. You cannot give that to people. They have to take it to themselves.

              As for Roberts writing being one of disgust against the watchtower, I have never seen that once! He presents the facts. The watchtower makes the disgust in our hearts as well as his. We feel that. Robert feels that, I assume. But he writes fact without embellishment of his own. We should not confuse the added flavouring of righteous sarcasm and indignant mockery with the truth of the matter. That is just the character showing, and which is present in all of us; born of exasperation. The true disgust belongs to Jehovah. And he will repay.

            • The Raven

              I don’t think ‘m confusing anything here. I stated what I saw to be a peculiar statement given what I have seen him write about and I think many would agree. I have seen his disgust with these situations plainly stated and I think we all here know what’s going to happen. Lord knows he’s written scads about it! I wonder myself if that is in fact the only test. I don’t believe it is. But…that remains to be seen.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Jehovah is not silly so as to kill many people and say no resurrection. When Jesus comes though anointed ones are the once who will see Jesus, but others will see not directly but due to tribulation they will be forced to know it is Jesus, in that sense every eye will see Jesus. That is the point when people will be given chance to show support to Jesus Christ of the 8th king. Those who willfully reject Jesus will be killed with no resurrection. That is outside the guidance of WTS. It is sad to say even some who are within the Jw congregation are going to be killed even some anointed ones those who leave the covenant due to the smooth words of KON.

        • Richard Long

          First, to qualify, I am absolutely noone of consequence. Consider what I may say to you as of the same value as what may come from the mouth of any derelict you might share a bus stop bench with.

          If what one might reasonably expect as an outcome of all corrective measures Jehovah has and will employ(ed) since the Satan-instigated rebellion in Eden through the millennial reign of Christ is a restoration of mankind to a condition on par with that of the prospects offered to Adam and Eve, then NO, Satan has not already won, NOR is Jehovah in any way cruel. Your anguish, however, is quite understandable.

          I would and have staked my life on the understanding that Satan has, in fact, already LOST, and the privilege of witnessing the drama unfold and having even the slightest understanding of the meaning of what we are seeing is evidence of kindness not cruelty.

          However, such viewing is not for the faint of heart. Delusion, in general discussion, is a coping mechanism for people who cannot bear what they are seeing, itself a kind gift from the Creator. “The Delusion” as you see it tossed about here has specific meaning is fully explained by Robert in his body of work and not for me to tamper with.

          The one overarching theme I have gleaned from the body of Robert’s work is that at some time in the future the WT and its GB will be irrelevant and each human will stand for an accounting with the Creator, either with or without Christ as an advocate. This includes those we love and might wish to save or shield from pain. In light of that fact, each one must consider for themselves how much relevance the WT or its GB have now.

          Many are the person – and I have been one – who has inadvertently thrown our pain and desperation at Robert’s feet demanding a healing for our hearts only possible from Jehovah through Christ. What one can and should expect from Robert is that, for the duration of his commission to stand watch on the wall, he stay alert, see what he sees, and say what he sees. To these ends, no man can cast doubt on his fidelity. Other than friend and brother, let us not ask him to be more than watchman to us. Is it really fitting for us to make him arbiter in our disputes with the Creator?

          • Frank Haensel

            Nice to share that bench with you. Would you like a chocolate?

            • Richard Long

              Absolutely, thank you!

            • Joseph Stephan

              I bet Richard has some comfortable s-h-o-e-ssssss!

              https://youtu.be/CJh59vZ8ccc

            • Arvid Fløysand

              hahahaha…you are a true master of illustrations Joseph 🙂

            • Richard Long

              If only I had half of Forrest’s smarts.

            • Joseph Stephan

              Your a good man Richard!!

            • Richard Long

              wish I was half the man Forrest was, too!

            • Daisy d

              Wish I was too!

            • Richard Long

              You’ve got the heart of a lion, daisy… Thats for sure!

            • The Raven

              ^ True that. lol!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Watch it Richard. You mean the heart of a lionESS. Quite a different matter. Goes out shopping, feeds the family, brings up the young, fights off contenders for her affections, and does one hell of a lot of roaring and has claws like a set of carving knives. Meanwhile, the lion sleeps through most of the day, expects his food brought to him and…….well, that’s about it really. I think you might get struck off the Daisy Sweetypie list, like me.

            • The Raven

              lol!

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    Thanx a lot!!

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