The Second Coming of Christ and the Parousia

//The Second Coming of Christ and the Parousia

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Monday, May 29

I am with you.Matt. 28:20.

Over the years our King has given us tools to use to help prepare the hearts of millions to receive the Kingdom message. Some tools were useful for perhaps a decade or so, while others have proved to be of timeless value. But all these tools have allowed us to develop our skills as evangelizers in some way. One tool that helped many get started in the ministry was the testimony card, which Kingdom publishers began using in 1933. The card contained a brief Bible message. The testimony card was helpful in more ways than one. Although having a strong desire to share in the preaching work, some publishers were shy and did not know what to say. Others would tell the householder everything they knew in just a few minutes, but their presentation was not always tactful! In contrast, in a few concise, well-chosen words, the testimony card “did the talking” for the publisher.

The doctrine of the invisible parousia is unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Or more appropriately phrased, it is the unique teaching of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. That is because at no time since Charles Taze Russell organized the original Bible Students has there ever been any expectation of a coming parousia. It has always been considered an accomplished fact.

Originally the Russellites believed that the presence of Christ had begun in 1874. The date 1914 was looked forward to as the culmination of all things. Some of the Bible Students even expected to be raptured then. But after 1914 came and went and the world did not end some 16 years later, in 1930, the Watchtower reset the parousia to 1914 —dropping 1874 altogether. And to this day the Watchtower still teaches that Christ’s presence began in 1914.

But what is the parousia and why is its supposed beginning so easy to shift around?

It is true, popular Bible translations do not consistently translate the Greek word parousia as presence. Most translate it as coming —as in the second coming. But “presence” is the more accurate rendering. And Christ’s coming precedes his arrival and subsequent presence.

However, nowhere in the Scriptures do we find the expression — “invisible presence.” Besides, has not Jesus always been invisibly present with his true disciples as the day’s text indicates? Jesus’ parting words to his 11 faithful apostles recorded in the very last passage in Matthew assures Christians of this very thing. Jesus said to them: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

If Jesus is with his disciples all the days until the conclusion what happens during the conclusion? Is it merely more of the same preaching and disciple-making, more baptizing, more invisibility on the part of Christ as he directs Christians from heaven? Interestingly, the Watchtower article from which the daily text is taken states in the second paragraph:

This great work, Jesus foretold, would be carried on right up to “the conclusion of the system of things,” and that has proved to be the case. Quite likely you are having a share in the fulfillment of that commission and prophecy.

No doubt some at Bethel’s writing desk realize the contradiction they are teaching in regards to the parousia and conclusion beginning in 1914, and so to smooth it over they give the impression that the conclusion begins in the future or that there is a seamless transition from before the conclusion to the conclusion; hence, the expression:  “carried on right up to ‘the conclusion of the system of things.’”

Unfortunately, this sort of sleight-of-hand trickery on the part of Watchtower writers is not at all uncommon. It takes a trained eye to spot it. However, all such Kingdom tricksters would do well to take note of Zephaniah; indeed, the oft-quoted passage in the third chapter concerning Jehovah providing a change to a pure language shall come in the aftermath of the banishment of all those speaking a lie with a tricky tongue.

But, again, the bigger question is: what is the parousia of Jesus Christ? That question is most pertinent given the fact that Jesus said he would be with his disciples all the days until the conclusion, or until the harvest.

Regarding the definition of the presence the NWT Reference Bible under section 5B cites a writer from the Russell era, stating:

Concerning the meaning of this word, Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote in his work The Parousia, Portland, Maine (1879), pp. 12-15: “We often speak of the ‘second advent,’ the ‘second coming,’ etc., but the Scriptures never speak of a ‘second Parousia.’ Whatever was to be its nature, it was something peculiar, having never occurred before, and being never to occur again. It was to be a presence differing from and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men, so that its designation should properly stand by itself, without any qualifying epithet other than the article,—THE PRESENCE.

This is a very important statement of truth. The presence of Christ is different and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men. Turn that phrase over in your mind a time or two and let it sink in.

Now, since the Watchtower ascribes to the above statement honest-hearted Jehovah’s Witnesses should thoughtfully consider the following question: How has Jesus manifested himself since 1914? Is there any discernible difference in the relationship of Christians to Christ from before 1914 and after? If any of Jehovah’s Witnesses submitted that question to the Watchtower for consideration what answer, if any, do you suppose would be put forward? The answer should be obvious to all. There has been no apparent change.

Of course, the Watchtower claims that the Kingdom preaching work is the visible proof that Jesus is ruling in his Kingdom, but as pointed out here and in other articles, that contradicts the fact that Jesus said he would be with his disciples all the days until the conclusion. Certainly the first century Christians accomplished a great work without any modern devices. They did so, not because the Kingdom had come or Christ’s parousia had begun, but because Jesus was with them, as he said he would be.

Consider now another statement in the same New World Translation appendix:

“Had our translators done with this technical word ‘parousia’ as they did with ‘baptisma,’—transferring it unchanged,—or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a ‘second Presence,’ I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, ‘second advent,’ and ‘second coming,’ would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period,—that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered.”

First, there is nothing unscriptural or inappropriate with the expression “second coming.” While the so-called churches have confused Christ’s coming and presence, so has the Watchtower —only in a different manner, as will be shown. But the term “second coming,” although not appearing precisely in verse, the concept is certainly implied. At John 14:3 did not Jesus say explicitly that he would “come again”? He surely did. Does not the word “again” indicate a repeat —a second coming? It most surely does.

Furthermore, Paul wrote in his letter to the Hebrews (9:28): “So also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.”

All Christians believe that the Son of God appeared on earth some 2,000 years ago, so the “second time he appears” not only implies a second coming, but is in direct conflict with the Watchtower’s mind-bending notion of an invisible appearance. 

But as regards the second quote above, the concluding sentence makes a very important point; namely, that the purpose of the parousia is to make new, to accomplish the resurrection and administer justice and reward those deemed faithful. In other words, the presence of Christ is when the judgment of the house of God is carried out. This can be discerned from a few passages that speak of the presence of Christ:

“For what is our hope or joy or crown of exultation—why, is it not in fact you?—before our Lord Jesus at his presence?” — 1 Thessalonians 2:19

Paul, here, indicates that the disciple making work would culminate at Jesus’ presence, which is why there would be joy and exultation over the fruits of their labor.

“Moreover, may the Lord cause you to increase, yes, make you abound, in love to one another and to all, even as we also do to you; to the end that he may make your hearts firm, unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.” — 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

If the goal is to be found unblamable in holiness at the presence of our Lord Jesus that indicates that the presence is the end of Christianity, when all are judged. And although the goal is to be found unblamable, obviously some will be found guilty. Also, if all the holy ones are with Christ at his presence, obviously that comes at the conclusion of the preaching, teaching and readjustment of the holy ones.

“Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain. You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.” — James 5:7-8

Clearly, James taught that the presence of the Lord was the end of our faith. It is what Christians are waiting for. Therefore, if Christ’s presence began in 1914 why is it necessary to keep exercising patience? Why is the theme of the 2017 conventions of Jehovah’s Witnesses “Don’t give up”? The answer should be obvious to anyone who is not deluded —the presence of the Lord has not begun.

“So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence.” — 1 John 2:28

Finally, the apostle John links the manifestation of Jesus and the judgment of all anointed persons with his presence. Again, if the goal is to be able to stand before Christ and not be shamed away from him, then the presence is the end of Christ’s work. Has anyone been shamed away from Christ over the past 100 years during his supposed invisible presence? More to the point, even the Watchtower has now reset the judgment of the slaves of Christ to the future, when he comes as a thief. That being true, obviously once the Son of man arrives and the presence of Christ commences then he is no longer coming and it is evident that those who will be shamed away from him at his presence are the hypocrites who will be judged to be evil and sluggish slaves. Their being shamed away is where the weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 

The truth is, according to the Scriptures the second coming of Christ and the beginning of the parousia will conclude the worldwide preaching and teaching work. That is why it is called the conclusion —it is the end of the Christian era. The parousia is when Christ judges his slaves as to their faithfulness in his absence, when he was with them from afar.

Amazingly, the apostle Paul indicated that prior to the actual coming and manifestation of Jesus a man of lawlessness would promote a false parousia. This is precisely what the Watchtower has done and that is why it has never placed the parousia in the future. The Watchtower’s invisible parousia doctrine bears all the earmarks of the delusion that Jehovah permits the Devil to put into operation immediately prior to the authentic coming of Christ. 

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2017-05-30T07:20:42+00:00 May 29th, 2017|Commentary|124 Comments
  • Nigel

    Powerful, irrefutable arguments once again Brother King. Hallelujah.

  • Burt Reynolds

    Robert please could you just clarify: ‘ I will be with you all the days until the conclusion….or harvest.’ Does this mean to the beginning of the conclusion or to the end of the conclusion? I know this will sound simplistic, but there is a difference. For instance, the marriage vow is ‘until death do us part’, not ‘until you become terminally ill.’ I ask because I am wondering if there is to be a period of ‘abandonment’ as with Christ at his crucifiction where he had to stand unsupported. And this also sounds contradictory as unless Jehovah intervenes, no one will survive. Thanks.

    • The conclusion marks the end of the preaching. It will begin with a the confusion and scattering and end with the regathering and establishment of the new world

      • Burt Reynolds

        Thanks.

      • Vasilios Agio

        Brother Robert can you please explain what rev 1:10 and 11 means . Isn’t all this in the lords day or Christs reign the letters to the congregations . Thankyou .

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          Hey who are you? It seems you are reading bible seriously and catching point by point and I like people like you. Yes the bible says by inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day,that means it applies to Lord’s day and therefore seven ancient congregation mentioned in Rev:1:11: represents the world wide christian congregations that is spread across the 7continents of the world that means those warnings must also apply to the congregations that bears the name of Jehovah and not Christendom because those letters were written to the Christian congregations not to Babylon religions of that time. So if Christendom is Babylon the great, hence those letters are also not applied to Christendom but to us who bear the name of Jehovah. Hey I will make a reply for you in depth it is a word document, I can’t post here as it is 8 page MS word document written by me. So contact me at easajw@gmail.com

        • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

          I did not received any of your mail contact address

        • The letters to the seven congregations precede Christ’s coming for judgment. That is why he gives warning to certain persons that if they do not repent he is coming quickly and will war with them with the spirit of his mouth.

          • Vasilios Agio

            Thankyou for your thoughts brother , may I ask also and not take much of your time doing so but if that is the case then does the 1914 hoax contradict rev 1:11 . Thankyou . U will have to excuse my being a bit behind the 8ball regrading prophecy , thankyou all the same for your shared knowledge . All things you write are truly appreciated .

            • I am not sure what you mean. I would only point out that in each of Jesus’ letters to the congregations he concludes each message by saying “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.” Jesus used a similar expression when he concluded his explanation of the meaning of the illustration of the weeds and the wheat, saying: “Let the one who has ears listen.” So, the exhortation to listen to the spirit precedes the day of the Lord, which is the harvest, because then it will be too late to listen

            • Vasilios Agio

              Ok thankyou for that , that makes sense brother thankyou . So basically as an after thought , the false 1914 hoax caused by Satan to put people asleep and not keep on the watch , this date , being wrong in the sense that Satan has not been cast out yet and Christ presence is not yet would render everything the watchtower says basically wrong . I’m saying this because if the sole or basic foundation of there faith is established around a lie then everything else just is way out of line then and they are basically lost and drunk with wine as Stated in Isaiah as jehovahs Says who is as blind as my prophets , I think that’s what the scripture says . 1914 to me has many holes , in 1928 penicillin was invented and we eradicated most of the previous pestilence pts of the past so this contradicts the horsemen . And also something that really gets to me is the fact that they would witness to people who have already recieved the mark of the beast . And they seem to turn the gallop of the horsemen into some play school event . I think as you have mentioned that when this occurs everyone will be affected and the death rate will be severe . Anyway I’m rambling thanks for your explanation brother Robert .

            • Huldah

              Hi Vasilios
              Excellent summary!

            • Vasilios Agio

              Many thanks , one can only try and keep on the watch , we are all trying to help one another , it is a brotherhood and we do strengthen one another , I know I’ve learnt a lot from brother Roberts book and from these blogs and the comments , we all see things from different angles , it’s amazing , thankyou

            • Richard Long

              Wouldn’t it be more apt to say the sole foundation of their faith, our faith, and the modus operandi of attraction for new ones are the basic truths – the personal name and revealed personality of God, understanding the true nature of Jesus relative to Jehovah, salvation by means of the Kingdom. Has anybody, anywhere accepted the message on the basis of the (false) parousia and the lies associated with it, or isn’t that the apostate poison lacing the digestif following the refreshing meal of truth?

              Other than that, your indictments of the WT could not be more true.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              Hey what a reply yah!! Good

            • Vasilios Agio

              Yes your very right thankyou for elaborating , u have a way with words that’s wonderful . Thx

            • The Raven

              I see that it depends on their level of understanding. As others have brought up some are not capable of seeing it or just don’t want conflict or worry. People still continue to join as others leave. It’s not a static situation in fact it is becoming rapidly fluid.

              I agree that they are still teaching the basics and have been for a long time. Those basics still bring good folks to Him. They don’t expect a bait and switch.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              Hey its not only penicillin, think of how many nations got freedom after 1914? Was not India and Pakistan in 1947? Burma 4 January 1948? Iraq in 1932? Indonesia 17/8/1945? many African nations and so on? If Christ has already started ruling in 1914, how man’s kingdom is achieving its freedom and ruler ship? Definitely I can say that after 1914 a part Daniel’s prophecy got fulfilled. Which is that? It says regarding the iron and clay Dan:2:33 (its legs were of iron, and its feet were partly of iron and partly of clay). Before 1914 British an Imperial that is the Iron system was ruling but as these British colonies got independence these nations chose Democracy (= clay like rule) rather than imperial rule, so the prophecy of Daniel that is the clay like government (democracy) came into existence and only that part of Prophecy got fulfilled. Poor WTS. Oh sorry let me put like this arrogant WTS don’t know all these things so that itself is the fulfillment of another prophecy Isaiah:42:19: Who is blind except my servant, So deaf as the messenger I send? Who is so blind as the one rewarded, So blind as the servant of Jehovah?

            • Vasilios Agio

              Wow good history . Thanks for your enlightenment I didn’t see it this way . I missed that one thank you very much .

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              I have sent a document to your email address did you get that? It is regarding Rev:1:10-11

            • Vasilios Agio

              Thankyou for that it was very informative , many thanks

            • Vasilios Agio

              What you say is very precise , I agree with you . Your comment made me think of the quality and standard of life since 1914 . America took off and became the greatest nation the world hasn’t ver seen with most probably the best living standards in history especially in there hey day of the 50,60s and 70s. America was the envy of all nations . Now given the fact that if Jesus was ruling then this doesn’t add up an down eat the whole thrower doesn’t see this yet we do this is astonishing or do they bt are to proud to repent and admit fault , they have definitely spoken things that jehovahs has not instructed . When I was baptised I recall being told I was one of the Gods spirit organisation . I found this very odd . Regarding disfellowshipment I think they mis understood Paul in that he was requesting that the ones who were at that time sinning as in the likes of fornication and adultery and yet still had a standing in the congregation that they be removed and I agree with this but you can’t remove someone for 15,20 years and push them away even tho they repented in there heart and hav a good relationship with jehovahs . The org has definitely put themselves in the place of Christ , I say this because they appear to think they have authority to forgive sins and be the go between man and Christ . I don’t think this is acceptable . They are basically making people think that if the org is not happy with you then jehovah isn’t either . This to me is a misconception . I was disfellowshipped for 15 years ago for adultery and that was only a year of my life . Even to this day if I go back to the Kingdom Hall I beet shunned as tho I am still a fornicator and two years ago at the pass over I was told to stand outside and wait in the cold soon after the prayer as if they were afraid to catch a disease from me so I never went back . Why should I go thru man to jehovah when all hey have done is bare false witness and false prophecy to the world bringing reproach to Jehovahs name . I may be wrong but Jesus left us some very good examples of forgiveness and it’s all to do with the heart . Thanks for your comment .

            • The Raven

              “And also something that really gets to me is the fact that they would witness to people who have already recieved the mark of the beast . And they seem to turn the gallop of the horsemen into some play school event .”

              I too had a heck of a time accepting that. By what reasoning? It didn’t add up. It still doesn’t add up. And here I am…

            • Vasilios Agio

              Certainly , your dead on point with that one , it’s something that has given me strength to keep reading brother Roberts information as he rolls it out . It’s a great point and since this was brought to my attention a few years ago , I think it was in jehovah has become king or maybe a YouTube video Robert did a couple years ago . Anyway my memory isn’t as good as it used to be but this is a crucial point in regards 1914 being a hoax and definitely the lie as spoken of in 2 thess 2 . It’s a terrible stumbling block and there are a few scripture in isiaiah that remind me of this but I can’t recall the scriptures I think it’s in ch 28 . My favourite scripture regarding the watchtowers prophecies is Deuteronomy 18:22 . Jehovah is telling us to not fear them because they are false prophets . Here’s one for you . My sister is a witness and she’s totally lost in trying to gain acceptance of jehovahs tjru many hours of witnessing and I have mentioned many points that I have learnt from brother kings writings and she keeps saying to me … She calls me billy , she said if you keep reading that apostasy crap your gonna lose your life you need to get back to jehovah and be saved . This is typical witness thinking . No matter what scripture I show her it’s as tho she is asleep truly and she cannot comprehend anything other than what is in a watchtower or awake magazine and I feel she idolises the men at the top . I believ the org has placed themselves as idols and we know Jhivah abhores this .

  • Max

    Wow excellent article again. I think the delusion of the 1914 false parousia was put in place by satan to put the virgins to sleep. I personally do not know any anointed beside Brother King whom doesn’t believe that the parousia started in 1914, so probably many of our anointed brothers and sisters in the organization fell asleep because of the 1914 delusion.

    • Vasilios Agio

      Ya got no oil in the lamps . Fallen asleep on the job . Why does the org keep writing to keep on the watch or stay awake when they believe he’s already here so this is a contradiction but like I mentioned in my previous comment , I was told that Jesus was invisibly here ruling since 1914 but now they tell me he began ruling in heaven in 1914 and this confuses me . Brother Robert has clearly written that it is a future even and that the four horsemen the have not galloped yet . I have read in revelation 10:11 that Jesus apon ruling gathers his congregation first from afar . If this is the case then this brings to my mind that the witnessing work and the re establishment of the truth may have been when Jesus began ruling . I’m kinda in both minds regarding this issue . I hope I don’t confuse anyone it’s just that I can’t help but notice that scripture in revelation . Have you any thoughts on this ? Thx

    • Vasilios Agio

      Ran out of oil fell asleep . Watchtower keeps telling there followers to keep awake and on the watch , what for when they proclaim Jesus already here . Very contradictory .

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Yeah I like that statement what you said.

  • Vasilios Agio

    Please explain why when I speak to witnesses they now say the invisible presence is due to Christ been given rulers hip in heaven , set up his kingdom but that’s not what I was taught . I was taught he was invisibly here . Also if you don’t mind I wish to know has Jesus been given all,nooner and authority in heaven already . I must be thick Coz it’s all very confusing to me . At what stage does the four horsemen gallop ? . The witnesses say that happened in 1914 so are you saying this has not occurred yet . So the Parousia is diff from his actual coming when the anointed will see him in the end . Please explain , I have read lots and seen brother Roberts videos on you tump be but still not sure about wether Jesus has cast Satan out and began ruling and if he does Coz I feel this is a future event then what can we expect to see happen on earth . Thankyou

  • Peaceful Waters

    “This is a very important statement of truth. The presence of Christ is different and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men. Turn that phrase over in your mind a time or two and let it sink in.”

    It is indeed! The Watchtower has done an impecable job of keeping everyone busy, that many brothers and sisters don’t get or take the chance to STOP, and really MEDITATE on God’s word. To let it SINK in.

    Thank you Jehovah for your endless supply of knowledge, love, mercy, and guidance. And for helping people like Robert to concisely distribute this much needed spiritual clarity. Thank you for your efforts brother King 🙂

    • Richard Long

      AMEN

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      Yeah that is perfect statement! right?

  • The Raven

    Many thanks!

  • NOAHtheARKist

    Thanks for the article Brother King! I appreciate the information that you provide, very informative and thought provoking….I am very cautious after years of watchtower 1914 delusional teaching, to not trust anyone who might say anything about Christ return, I am very skeptical and I scrutinize every “inspired” expression more than ever..Paul told us to make sure…
    It is more than obvious that Christ did not make his return in any form in 1914, painfully obvious!
    Thanks for providing a resource for those, such as myself, to have a place to come and find beneficial scriptural material, its great to know that we are not alone and Jehovah cares for those who love Him and seek His truth!

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      Yes I hear you louder that’s right

  • Burt Reynolds

    Does anyone know if the watchtower is still spending $4,000 a day over their refusal to present child abuse evidence to the Court…..and what the running total is to date?

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      The present figure is $1359622, the figure changes from day to day.

    • If the WT caves and hands over secret files the lawyers know it will open the floodgates of litigation and they will be swept away. $4,000 a day – or roughly a million and a half per year, is petty cash considering the Kingdom Ca$h Machine they got running 24-7

      • Vasilios Agio

        Wow that’s mind boggling figures . Jehovah would not be happy about that at all .

      • Joseph S.

        They will just pass it on to their subscribers,
        Oops, I meant publishers……….

      • Richard Long

        I have many times thought the WT SHOULD cave. Not just cave but the whole mea culpa. It’s no stretch that if I felt the necessity to kill someone, I would also feel the necessity to confess and plead guilty at trial. I might legally defend the necessity, but there’s no way I would deny the guilt. Better for the WT to be broken and humiliated than so disgustingly corrupt. THEN I would no longer be ashamed to be baptized in association with the WT.

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    Let it be more precise that those who will be shamed away from him at his presence are the hypocrites who believed in 1914 and child molesters and WTS child abuse policy makers and evil elder who dis-fellowship people for petty reasons. Their being shamed away is where the weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. I think this will be more appropriate wordings in the sentence. easach.ece@citech.edu.in

  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    The ever present question. Is it a scriptural requirement that jehovahs witnesses believe Jesus took kingly power in 1914 and that he is invisibly present, does ones life depends on this?
    The same question should be asked sbout Christ future presents since he will be coming with no strikeable observance, will our lives depend on on believing this, and if so, how ?

    • It is an organizational requirement, not scriptural. The WT says it is truth and whatever they say is truth is the truth, at least for Jehovah’s Witnesses.

      Some months back a couple of elders called on me to try to encourage me to get reinstated. I told him my situation and then asked him: “Could I get reinstated if I don’t believe 1914?” His reply: “Probably not.”

      • The Raven

        What are people to do who wish to be baptized but agree with you that 1914 is a bust? Are they relegated to finding someone who would be willing to do it independent of the WTO? I’ve wondered about this for years. It seems many are in a sort of limbo.

        • It is a dilemma. I don’t know what the answer is. Try to go under the radar is what i suggest.

          • The Raven

            Thanks for your reply.

          • J.M.J.

            At penticost I believe some un- baptised people were given holy spirit .If JEHOVAH gave them this gift who are we to say and judge .I may be wrong about this ,but am sure I read it somewhere

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Acts 10:44-48….:-)

            • Richard Long

              Which just convinces me my baptism dilemma is the least of my worries. Isn’t the act of submission TWICE evidence of where my heart is?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Yes…the baptism itself is only a symbol …like the bread and wine…

            • The Raven

              Very nice Arvid!
              It also poses some questions about the anointed themselves.

            • The Raven

              That’s interesting. JMJ commented also about that.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Yes..it is very interesting…many who read their Bible think about John the baptist as the first one who introduced baptism…what is baptism?…why water?…to better understand we must look for it in the whole Bible…not only in the greek scriptures…the “roots” goes deeper..Noah and his family got “baptised” thru water..when they left behind the bad world…Jacob (Israel) where “baptised” when he wresled an angel on his way back home to his land (the promised)..after leaving the bad life in Labans teritory…The whole nation of Israel got “baptised” when they walked thru the Red sea…and left the bad life in Egypt behind…all those chose to leave a bad life and to never return to those places…and if you read about it..notice that in all those tre chases it was made a covenant to never return …also notice that in all chases,jehovah had already chosen them before the baptism took place…this is the “surface”…go on and “digg” into this and find some more “goldnuggets” if you like 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Love this post! Loads to dig into. Baptism can mean, launch, initiation, debut, beginning, inauguration sometimes into a difficult role.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Yes..a new fresh start…water is symbol of life..and to cleance what is dirty…:-)

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Btw…digging is so so exiting…i strongly feel that we are very close to a “brake thru)
              Allow me to illustrate:
              In Norway we have a lot of tunnells straith thru big mountans to somethimes connect two districts together with a nice road straith thru the mountain that earlier used to seperate them ore make it very difficult to cooperate properly.
              When a new tunnell is made..they usually work their way inn from both sides of the mountain…two groups of tunnell-companys …the most exiting moment is in the middle of the mountain when they blast their way in and know on both sides by calculation that the next blast will be the very spesial brake thru…from both sides they digg..often with their own hands to make the first little peak-hole where they can see the other team…in that moment the team on both sides shout out of joy..laugh,shake hands thru the little first opening..digg more until they are able to walk thru…hugs and gratulations..and ofcourse champagne and cake…a very happy moment…those workers are the first one to ever step thru that solid mountain,and they know they have this great honor to take part in making these two different districts united…for ever
              You know where im going by this 🙂
              It is the marvellous way of Jehovah…the kingroad..(not the fake one thou)..but ratherJacobs ladder..the wonderful “brake thru” that is going to fully unite heaven and earth…in a solid way like in stone…eternal…in the mountain of Jehovahs kingdom…the same mountain that is going to “fill the whole world” as we read about in Daniel…soon ,both teams who at this very moment are digging with bare hands,there will be this fantastic moment..an opening..the cry of joy..what we have prayed for in 2000 years…finally…let Your Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven…the great connection,the final brake thru…let the King of kings ride thru,our true saviour…..i love this hard digging 🙂

            • The Raven

              I know it will be more than we can imagine. We just have to make sure our coordinates are correct. And that takes constant measuring.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Exactly 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Reading that Arvid I felt the excitement of those tunnel diggers. Wow! You’ve always mentioned Jacob’s Ladder, it has great meaning to you even recently I was thinking of that Ladder as you said, how it means that heaven and earth will be completely United like a heavenly freeway. I get that were all waiting for that break through, that little glimmer of light to the other side then finally to be to step through. Arvid, your illustrations become so real. My workmate Lee only asked me last Thursday if you had written another illustration so now I can tell him you have. I’ll get him to read this one. Thank you so much Arvid for this beautiful insightful post. I don’t want to mention the ‘A’ word Arvid and you would never say but I’m still convinced, especially when I read these posts of your’s. Your words come from a very deep spiritual place. So loving and humble.

            • Max

              Wow! Awesome illustration. I love it.
              Thank you

            • The Raven

              This is the Jacob’s ladder I was used to seeing. I know the divine one will be spectacular:
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0

            • Richard Long

              Do you guys do that for fun, or is there a functional necessity, like de-energizing the lines so you can work on them?

            • The Raven

              It was for work. It was fun to watch but dangerous.

            • Richard Long

              I hear ya!

            • Max

              Wow! I’ve never seen something like
              that before. How far into the air does it go? I bet that would
              vaporized a human.

            • The Raven

              It’s not normal. Most the time a short snap or buzz, maybe a small arc. But that one was large. I’ve seen them leap about twenty, maybe thirty feet, but something usually fries when that happens. Older installations are prone to it.

            • Arvid Fløysand

              If we imagine the “sword” of Jehovahs mighty angels acting like that electric-beam..than who can stand in the way when all the myriads of Jehovahs engels arrive with the mightyest of them all…Jesus the Christ in front, at the final battle…no wonder He says: Stay still,and watch 🙂

            • The Raven

              Yep. I’d listen.

            • Huldah

              Hi Arvid. Great examples. I’d look at life stories too. I’m sure some brothers got baptized by their Uncle in the bathtub and it was accepted.

          • Vasilios Agio

            Brother Robert can you elaborate under the radar please thx .

        • Craig

          Hi Raven, I had a conversation with an elder a while ago about baptism, and if someone who was studying wanted to get baptised and joined the baptism candidates at a convention or assembly and went ahead and got baptised without prior approval that their baptism could still be recognised. This may not be the same for every situation though I’m sure. I didn’t ask if they would be officially welcomed as a brother or sister into the congregation.

          • The Raven

            Never heard that before.
            I have heard that some witnesses have baptized people outside of the halls in private gatherings. I have yet to find any of them.
            I know I shouldn’t but I feel like I’m hunting contraband.

            • J.M.J.

              Hi Raven . I believe my Auntie was baptised in a bath tub. It was from a time of very little private transport .No swimming baths ,no television etc . so not so hard to imagine it happening .I would like to get baptised ,but am disabled and also will not accept the wording of the oath .I have prayed about it and believe that if baptism is really important that JEHOVAH will find a way .

            • The Raven

              You and Huldah make a good argument for that and it may come to it.

          • Richard Long

            And this still leaves us with the “pharisees” blocking entrance to the kingdom and refusing to go in themselves, as it were.

            • The Raven

              Yes is does. That has a domino affect as we are seeing. That delusion touches many things and they have placed the org in a bad position in relation to the publishers and Jehovah himself. They have also left themselves wide open for scorn and financial distress because of their dishonest dealings with victims of pedophiles within the congregations. That’s a shame. It does not reflect on the truly honest hearted publishers that continue to preach the good news. It goes back to their leaders. But I have faith that whatever they do under the MOL true followers will be helped along.

          • Huldah

            That’s goooood.
            I can see Jehovah blessing that leap of faith.
            What an opportunity to see Jehovah’s hand personally.

        • Burt Reynolds

          What about baptism of the heart? I know the bible talks about the importance of baptism, but on the other hand, I would think that the substance and faith of the willing person is of more value. The thief who was executed next to Christ springs to mind. He was not baptised, but clearly his heart was right after simply witnessing the few words that Jesus spoke during that time. I can imagine many such instances come the tribulation and the manifestation of Christ, and even of those before such time. And of what value is the baptism of the wachtower today with the aliegence pledge to the watchtower? I don’t know.

          • The Raven

            You make some very good points. It’s a detestable situation for many to be blocked by this. I agree in the bad times ahead the test will apply to all. Baptized or not. Yes, He does search our hearts and minds. Thank you, Burt.

            • Richard Long

              Another point of contention I have discussed previously is my 1990 baptism under the “I pledge allegiance to the WT” schema. A) was it even valid since they had bastardized it? B) Was it any different than my age 15 “Baptist” baptism where “Holy Ghost” was was named instead of Holy Spirit or even necessary? What kind of baptism does anyone have to offer me now other thnt baptism by fire?

            • The Raven

              There are a lot more people in this situation than they know of. We are commanded by Christ to go and baptize and be baptized. But they changed the terms of the baptism and insinuated themselves in the middle. Messing with that is as bad as silencing the anointed.
              It may come down to each one of us being baptized by folks who know this. I think given the miserable hole the WTO has dug, Jehovah knows how to locate His own. Regardless what they do. So I don’t think the conniving on their part will fetch anyone of us a baptism of fire.

            • Richard Long

              OK, I was using hyperbole with the fire thing. But we’re all gonna get us a “baptism” by tribulation!

            • The Raven

              Ain’t that the truth!

        • Max

          I
          believe that Jehovah is a God who looks at works more than a
          symbolized dedication through baptisms. A good example of this is
          Rahab the prostitute. Rahab’s story shows that none of us should
          believe that not being baptized will result in death when the end
          comes. Jehovah sees us all no by our tile per say baptized JW elder
          pioneer but by our heart. Love is the only perfect bond of union with
          God ( Colossians 3:14) in other words if we love Jehovah with all our
          hearts we will never leave Him and we will try to do His will all our
          hearts. Jehovah reads our hearts, and he is delighted when he finds a
          spark of faith like the one that lit up the heart of Rahab. Her faith
          moved her to ACTION. As the Bible says, she was “declared righteous
          by works.” (James
          2:25) She had faith in Jehovah’s salvation and He showed her
          mercy. Later David and the Messiah himself, Jesus our King,
          descended from her. No bad for a person without the proper
          credentials Ha?

          • The Raven

            Very wise words and a fitting example indeed. Thank you Max!

          • Max

            I have felt the need to add to my previous comment that baptism is a command from Jehovah so it can’t be taken lightly as my previous post might have given the idea of being so. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “go and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them,” and “teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matt. 28:19,20) For that reason we must obey that divine directive. On the other hand; to forbid or hinder someone from getting baptized through man-made conditions, restrictions, or qualifications, would be a serious matter, putting oneself in opposition to God. (Acts 5:29, 38,39; Rev. 22:18,19) Bottom line baptism is a command from Jehovah so it should be followed as such.

            • The Raven

              Right. This is why after looking at all comments and reflecting on this matter I posted this:

              The Raven • 14 hours ago
              After reading many fine thoughts and scripture you folks have posted I still believe that seeking baptism is the correct thing to do since Jesus told us to. Given the terrible situation with the JWs at present it must be outside the congregations. But even if that’s not possible because of this 1914 debacle, ultimately, Jehovah will do what needs be done to help and save His people. Baptism or no baptism. It is obvious all here seek any way they can through God’s word to save as many as they can by finding excellent examples of salvation through faith and love.
              Thank you all for that. 🙂

              It IS a direct command. That was for everyone. The frustration with this situation is clear among those trapped in a Purgatory they created with their insistence we accept unscriptural requirements for dedication.
              I would hate to have to account for that level of insolence and deceit when the Master arrives.

            • The Raven

              Max, that’s very good insight into this. To add or remove anything from those instructions is basically toying with the word of God. The penalties are severe as you noted with Rev 22: 18,19.
              Robert was absolutely correct in describing this as a dilemma. A terrible one.

              18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things,+ God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;+ 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life+ and out of the holy city,+ things that are written about in this scroll.

            • Max

              It is indeed a terrible dilemma.

            • The Raven

              What am I left with through all of this? A very simple thought:
              For every door the devil slams shut in my face, Jehovah opens a window for those who seek Him.

      • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

        The horrors ahead.
        For a fact many of the witnesses know the 1914 fake news is folding in on itself, but they dont have the courage to rebuff the lie for fear of being ostracized. Then others who consider it apostasy to say otherwise. I think this 1914 lie as you have written so much about will indeed cause a more untold damage than most can imagine.

    • Vasilios Agio

      That’s a brilliant idea , I’ve never thought of this thanks for this comment and like brother Robert explains its an organisational requirement not scriptual . That’s an awesome comment . In fact I’m gonna go one step further and add to what brother Robert said about not believing the lie . I have been disfellowshipped and a brother came to me a while ago and I set up a book study wanting to be reinstated and during the study I stared to question 1914 and some other facts that brother Robert has written about in jehovahs has become king and he basically got angry , tried to raise his voice at me a couple of times and so I was forced to put him in his place and eventually he faded away and didn’t come back so, my point is , it’s a requirement to believe and accept the lie , the delusion so as to be a Part of the organisation . This is definitely not scriptual .

  • Sharon

    I believe these men are very wicked.i saw a utube video about the upcoming convention.all about endurance,and the greatest examples of it,no mention of jesus.in fact the whole assembly not until sunday,one little piece.jesus Christ is the only way for salvation.jehovahs people have almost completely done away with jesus.something is very wrong

    • Beverly kenyon

      The MOL is is very much in charge of the congregations so of course he he will do his best to erase, bury, degrade, demean, airbrush out of memory all mention of Jesus Christ the King of Kings, Jesus being his arch enemy, he just can’t let it go, his humiliating defeat when Jesus kept his integrity unto death and conquered the world and Satan. The battle was won then now Jesus has to grip him and sling him where he belongs in prison (the Abyss), like the murderer that he clearly is! Ta-ra!

    • Vasilios Agio

      Great observation thank you

  • JTK

    its a tradgedy, like no other, Gods people going door to door with the good News of the Kingdom including a belief cornerstone that is false. personally i struggle with this, i wish it were true, that Christ did return in 1914 and the slave was appointed and the great crowd are being gathered and paradise awaits all who are in the spiritual paradise waiting room of the Watchtower.
    sadly its a delusion, instigated by Satan, delivered by men, leaders who somehow have and have always had total unquestionable control over the flock and are leading them to a cliff edge where their faith will be thrown down.
    On the other hand it seems it had to happen, God has allowed for it in his plan of salvation.warned of it in scripture and declared the Coming Judgment of Gods household and then the nations
    The authentic return of Christ will surely be something amazing , something that energises those down trodden and lost in confusion, the revealing of those Sons of God, the brothers of Christ, will surely be something that is unprecidented, when the transfiguration vision is fullfilled, and Christ appears, and the Sons of the kingdom shine as brightly as the sun, then surely all mankind must see and know what is happening.
    All i really know at present is that when i have taken the opportunity to get into conversation on this topic with witnesses who are going door to door they seem offended and have no ear for debate, and so it seems the cliff edge gets nearer and the fall will be unexpected by most witnesses, and it will be a heavy one

    • The Raven

      Isn’t it a strange but wonderful thing to see this happening as it was foretold?

      • Richard Long

        This is the reason I feel such a strong pull to defend Robert’s work, such as I never had the heart to defend the WT positions on 1914 etc. It wasn’t happening as foretold a la WT interpretations, but it IS happening as foretold a la WT interpretations adjusted with Robert’s delusion free treatment. I liken this to the way the placement of all the ancient monuments make no sense until one adjusts the prime meridian back to the original at Giza (31 something degrees). Then they form a discernible system.

        • The Raven

          I liken people who have that insight to a good BS meter. Robert’s is very good. I agree. And many here are wise enough to see this. We look for patterns, that’s true. And those patterns can be indicative of Jehovah’s favor or the devils influence. Looks like the WTO is going to have some splainin to do.

      • JTK

        well i would not describe it as wonderful, foretold and warned about certainly, and as always God sees it coming and plans for it, as he explained to Elijah that He had reserved seven thousand who have not bowed their knee to baal. How did he do that, we are not told, Elijah thought himself to be the only one
        I think Roberts work can be liked to that reservation of a remnant for the coming judgement of the house of God and the eventual restoration of the people to truth.
        as Robert has consistently said, the coming judgment of the house of God will change things dramatically, but its not going to be pretty at first.

        • The Raven

          Wonderful in the sense that we have before us clear evidence that true prophets are among us and that people DO see Jehovah’s hand in this regardless what the lawless do. If that helps. It’s reassuring to me that the evil will NOT prevail.

          • JTK

            yep that helps, in the end we know who will prevail, its just what happens in between now and then, that is difficult to contemplate.
            interestingly Robert once again seems to be ahead of time with his recent commentary with regard to the effect of such things

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Yes it is

    • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

      The last line of your comment make sense

  • The Raven

    After reading many fine thoughts and scripture you folks have posted I still believe that seeking baptism is the correct thing to do since Jesus told us to. Given the terrible situation with the JWs at present it must be outside the congregations. But even if that’s not possible because of this 1914 debacle, ultimately, Jehovah will do what needs be done to help and save His people. Baptism or no baptism. It is obvious all here seek any way they can through God’s word to save as many as they can by finding excellent examples of salvation through faith and love.
    Thank you all for that. 🙂

    • Richard Long

      I agree. Even IF the WT, as the leadership of the prophetic anti-typical Israel, were ever the exclusive path or gatekeepers, having now blocked the way in fulfillment of prophesy, some other provision must surely be made, even if it is just Jehovah’s mercy!

      • The Raven

        We have been shut out and the anointed silenced. That’s…pretty darn bad. I think we are all privileged to see this occurring. It gives us a good idea where we are in Jehovah’s timeline and an assurance that He will deal with this.

        • Richard Long

          And some hope that we may be useful to in the Kingdom, if for nothing else just to say what we saw for the benefit of those who did not live to see it. And the glory of Jehovah, of course.

          • The Raven

            Amen!

      • The Raven

        Do YOU feel better now after reading what everyone here wrote? I certainly hope so, Richard. It should alleviate a lot of worry and anxiety over these matters.
        I certainly do.

        • Richard Long

          Absolutely! If i’m jonesing at all, it is for the friends at the hall, not the org. My local congregation is extremely loving, never had a moment of grief from any of them as many here have been mistreated in their congregations. I have reluctantly come to believe I am where I am supposed to be at the moment I need to be here, receiving the training I should have been given in my original progression to dedication.

  • Vasilios Agio

    I have a question I would like to address. It’s not a doubt and I am not pointing my finger at anyone. I wish to ask how what we are doing is going to be preached over the entire world . I feel the witnesses are preaching lies from satan then how is it that scripture states that the good news of the kingdom for a witness to all nations will be preached . The kingdom is from in relation to jesus return . So I’m asking , in what way are we pronouncing Jehovah’s kingdom with this little congregation that hardly anyone knows about . I don’t see scripture saying and the lie will be preached to every nation it says the good news . Confusing to say the least . U have to excuse my lack of scriptural knowledge and my questioning . I believe everything must be questioned .

    • Burt Reynolds

      Hello Vasillios. Robert has touched on this subject before and the understanding I drew from what he said is this: the good news of the bible….the kingdom, the tribulation, the hope, the resurrection, the 144,000, the value of Christ’s sacrifice…..all of these basic things the watchtower teaches truthfully. Also, it is the only religion that does so, hence all the issues that surround it. The watchtower has done this since 1874 and has preached this good news more or less, in the entire world and in nearly all languages. It is without doubt, world wide. If any remain untouched, we can be confident of Jehovah’s love and justice.

      However, Robert also pointed out the problems that have emerged within the watchtower and that govern, cause and perpetuate the lies inherent in their prophesy interpretation which they use to support the apostate way they have taken, thus corrupting the entire organisation.

      The situation is therefore like a chest of three drawers that is otherwise good, is ruined by the fact that only two drawers open. Thus it is with the watchtower. Basically it is functional and one can store some faith in it, but when put to the test, it does not fulfil the purpose for which it is intended. Only part of the work of storage or provision is completed.

      As for this group, it is a question often asked as to why it is provided. Others like it, exist, but none are in full agreement. For what purpose they exist is certain in that they prove the lie of the watchtower and as far as they are able, speak the truth in honesty. Which as men/women, that is the best we should look for if we are not to dissapoint ourselves through praising men.

      It appears that those affiliated here do so for that very reason. It reeks of truth. It explains rationally, the bible. Slants, takes, thoughts, opinions have to withstand biblical scrutiny and reasoning. The Truth has indeed set us free to understand, reason, discuss and thus forward the intent of Jehovah. But why has this site and others like it been raised? Does there have to be a purpose? It would seem so, for as long as it stays with the bible, but why this privilege has been raised up in the face of those who dwell within the watchtower but do not know of the watchtower lie within the organisation, and thus we being given a huge insight and advantage, is a mystery, because who is worthy of this gift? Certainly not I. If there is a reason why we here have been privileged this way, we will be shown it and it would behove us to act upon it when or if that should occur, but until such a time, best just to learn what we can and thank Jehovah for the peace and assurance it gives. The help it has given me in building my faith in Jehovah and in getting to know him is beyond words.

      This though is the paradox. The watchtower is Jehovah’s organisation, but it had been corrupted as were the temples of old. It speaks the truth, yet tells the lie, it offers life, but brings with it, death. It blinds those who look for truth, with small truths that lead to an ultimate lie. That we who can see through this paradox, exist at all, can only be by the grace of Jehovah. We shall just have to wait and see if it is a gift, or a job description. I would like to think both, though I fear the latter but would welcome it!

      • Vasilios Agio

        Ok brother Burt . You have definitely brought out some very interesting and persuasive points that I can’t argue with and I mean that I’m a nice way brother . It makes sense the things brother Robert has said as you mentioned . That being that the basicic truths have been reviled to the world especially announcing who the real god is ofcourse . Dispelling the feeble trinity . What happens to the dead .and Jesus As a ransom sacrifice who is the only one who qualifies to pay back what was lost and the basic theme of the bible about the bruising of the heel and the crushing of the head . Unfortunately along with so many false prophecies . Is there any scriptural backing for this congregation (eclisia ) . No disrespect for brother Robert I’m merely asking for some proof that we are in the right track and hopefully not a snare from satan .. he’s a very cunning lad . We have to cover all angles . Forgive me for asking I hope I’m not stepping on anyone’s toes . I truly believe 1914 is a hoax . I’ve never believed it . I know they advertised the beast I’ve seen this many times myself . And ofcourse there false prophecies and lack of future prophecy as it applies to today also . Brother Robert is definitely on the ball . But dies this give us a right to gather together outside the temple and create a division ? For lack of a better term . I can tell that all the brothers and sisters are very spiritual and living and sincere as imperfect as we all are I truly know that you guys are truly Christ like personalities . I don’t doubt any brothers or sisters intentions or beliefs but only wishing to know if it is truly the right thing to do or should we just remain silent and let Jehovah sort matters out .

        • Burt Reynolds

          Hello Vasilios. You ask an impossible question. There is no proof we are on the right track. By referring to the scriptures, we can see if what is said by a teacher holds water. Or not, as the case may be. So, you may ask, as have I, how do we know we are on the right track? First of all, there is no sign post that says ‘RIGHT TRACK HERE.’ Pilot asked the same question when he asked ‘What is truth?’ The truth is what Christ said it was…ergo, to have love. To love Jehovah with all your heart. The second like it is this: to love your neighbour as yourself.’ Above and beyond that, for me anyway, it is all a bonus. Love is a catch-all. Within its meaning is honesty, faithfulness, to do no harm, to seek the best interests of others, no stealing, lying and so on and so forth, even to give your life for it, but overall, to love righteousness and to seek it. You get the picture fully if you remember that Jehovah IS love. We have love inbuilt. We know what it is. And It’s guide is called conscience.

          Personally, what is past is not of concern. 1914, what Rutherford did, what any of them do, the evil within, the money, the greed. Who we were. This is just supporting evidence to the truth. It is not truth that in itself is relevant to our future. It is merely an explanation as to why we should seek truth for ourselves, not to please men. But how do we know it when we see it?

          Some would say it tallies with the bible. That’s true. Some would say it makes sense. That is true as well. Some might say the prophesy spoken of in the site is coming true, and yes, it seems to be so, yet who of us will claim to be certain of the next minute?

          The scriptures tell us to seek to do the will of Jehovah and to know him, but along with it, to seek wisdom. The first part of which is not to put your faith in men some may say. And they would be right. The touchstone then, Is the bible and all that is in it and the command to make what we read our own. I hesitate to say it, but does it matter that we do not understand great swathes of it? If it does, then we need a teacher and have to have faith in that teacher. But if we have no teacher, as we did not in the watchtower, then what was it that kept our search alive? It was as said above; Jesus reduced it down to love. ‘The greatest of these is love.’ Therefore what led us here and opened our eyes?. Just love. Nothing else, simple love of righteousness and the personification of such, Jehovah.

          You noted previously how we know the word is spread earth wide and I reiterated Robert’s answer to this as I have no answer of my own. Likewise, Robert noted that the basic message of the watchtower is correct. That is true from what the bible tells us. That much I can claim. Is it not fair then, to assume that if the basic understanding of his will is good enough for Jehovah and that he is satisfied with that content, enough to bring about the end with no more than the basic message ringing in the ears of the beholder, that basic understanding and critically, the development of that basic understanding within ourselves, is all that is required? What part of basic do we not understand? Love, blood, abstain from fornication, generosity, faith, moderation charity, care, give freely, cleanliness of mind and body, truth, kindness, moral fibre, adherence to these things, strength of character in perseverance ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

          Don’t worry if Robert has the truth. Worry if you have the truth. I will continue to worry if have the truth along with you, but what with all these things that he has given us, why would Jehovah abandon us? The only truth we can be sure of, is that he has already given us these elements of truth within us and for us to align and respond to in his way. We need to align these truths with our consciousness of his will. He said if man did not speak out (teach the word), the very stones would cry out. I hear no stones! Therefore I assume that truth is spoken somewhere. For me, I do not know anywhere else to look for it. But in all things, I aim to be true to Jehovah through myself and my own conscience because I can do no more than that. And he has shown me the simple truths of the bible through the watchtower to enable me to do that, yet more importantly, having found these truths, he has also supplied the knowledge to be able to see truth and to seek it wherever it may be found. You said as much yourself!

          • Vasilios Agio

            I need that sign post brother Burt lol … right track this way … ofcourse it’s not as easy as this . I suppose our relationship with Jehovah is very important . The fact that we don’t wish to idolise and organisation is another. We know 1914 is not true so o think we r on the road . It’s very narrow

    • L.H.

      Hello Vasilios, nice to meet you. I can relate to what you are saying.
      In times when I suffered from misdoings in the Organisation, I had to pray a lot to Jehovah and ask for his guidance.
      .At that time I felt a very strong certainty about the conclusion I came to, but later in time I started to doubt that because I didn’t see it in otherones thoughts. (like you said:” everything must be questioned” , so I have to start with myself haven’t I?)
      But maybe you are interested in the first comment I wrote to Anderiega, it actually was the reason I came online. And I am very much interested in otherones thoughts about this topic

      • Vasilios Agio

        I’ve seen and felt nothing but true love from you brothers and sisters many thanks truly .

    • Bklyn Kevin

      The lie concerning the Watchtower’s 1914 scenario that Jesus has already come will be completely exposed when Jesus Comes in his authentic Parousia then the truth will be clear for all to see.
      In other words when Jesus comes in his authentic Parousia it will be as if Jesus himself had preached to the whole wide world about the man of lawlessness at the watchtower because nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another – thus the lie would have been exposed for all to see.
      All these things are the beginning of pangs of distress.
      Keep in mind the watchtower exclaimed these events had already occurred.

      SIGN OF CHRIST’S PRESENCE (1-51) Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/24/
      The Lamb opens the first six seals (1-17) https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/revelation/6/

      Read a lot more>
      Search results for: 1914. https://e-watchman.com/?s=1914

      • Vasilios Agio

        Wonderful thankyou

    • Joseph S.

      The gospel of Mark phrases things a little differently. In Mark’s account Jesus said: “As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first.”

      This account really verifies for us that the preaching of the good news precedes the outbreak of war, food shortages and persecution. It stands to reason that a time of tyranny and genocide like nothing in history will not be conducive for the peaceful, public preaching and Bible study work with which Jehovah’s Witnesses are presently engaged. The time of the end is a whole other deal.

      • Vasilios Agio

        I’m going to watch that link now brother Joseph thank you

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