Podcast #76

//Podcast #76

This program considers listeners’ questions, such as: How can you be sure Jehovah’s Witnesses are the true faith? And since the leadership of the Watchtower are becoming more corrupt, why ought JW’s be in subjection to those taking the lead? And in a similar vein, since the worldly authorities are so corrupt why ought we be in subjection to them?

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2018-01-18T06:02:59+00:00 December 24th, 2017|Podcasts|255 Comments
  • bobby6343

    So refreshing to have you back on “Podcast”!

  • Simpletruth

    Loved this podcast! I’m so glad you did it. I will try to think of some questions so we can keep it going:-) I just wanted to say that it seems like the current leadership is just like the pharisees. The pharisees would have been considered apostate in the end because although they knew “the truth” (so to speak) or were ‘well versed in the scriptures’ they denied Christ and had him put to death. When Jesus returns and the JW leadership denies his return and maybe even tries to “expel” those who believe that the real coming of Christ has commenced they will have done exactly what the pharisees did.

  • Ken Rosenberg

    I disagree that JWs are doing the global preaching work “and the end will come” that Jesus spoke of. It is clearly going to be finished by the two symbolic witnesses of Revelation 13. Secondly, you say they haven’t become fully apostate yet, but they have, they have been apostate since day 1, 1914 is an apostate doctrine, and if you heed Luke 21:8, you would want nothing to do with the Watchtower. There is no proof that Jehovah has helped them, we need two witnesses to establish this fact, not just feelings.

    • Having wrong interpretation of prophecy does not make one an apostate. The WT will go into apostasy when Christ returns, for the reason that it will not accept that new reality. Furthermore, the two witnesses will not preach good news.

      • Ken Rosenberg

        “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them”

        So it is not good news that they are witnessing?

        “I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”

        What are they prophesying about? The good news that pertains to God and his dealings.

        Is it not after they are resurrected and finished tormenting the earth (preaching the good news) that the end comes?

        In 2 Thessalonians 2, the written letter and verbal message which the man of lawlessness uses to preach the presence of Christ is condemned by Paul. Yet you say that same letter is being used to preach the good news to the entire inhabited earth? JWs are not even found in most countries in Asia. Ask a random person on the street, they’ve never heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

        • The message of the two witnesses torments the people of the earth. That can hardly be said of the message of JW’s presently.

          • Ken Rosenberg

            That’s my point. But isn’t the message that torments the people of the Earth, Good News from our perspective, from the Bible’s, from God’s? What are they going to preach? Surely it will include something along the lines of the impending doom they face if they do not repent, and if they repent, they will get to live in God’s Kingdom, forever. From a point of view, you could say that Jesus tormented the Jews when was ministering, after all, these were his words, “Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law”

            • into the light

              IMO the 2 witnesses will witness the establishment of the kingdom on the earth and will preach that fact. They were prefigured as appearing alongside Jesus when he transfigured in front of his apostles. At least that’s my understanding.

            • A tormenting message is not good news. There is no salvation for the people of the world at that time. Jesus said the chosen ones will be made to stand before governors and kings then to give them a witness and that no one will be able to resist or dispute them. That can hardly be said to be the case now. God’s spirt will envelop the sealed ones then so they will become like Sampson, in a spiritual sense. People will be forced to demonstrate outwardly their hatred of Jehovah and Christ and the truth. That’s what judgment day is all about.

            • MMW

              thanks, very true

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Not seen many days

            • Ed

              Do the chosen ones give a witness before or after the governors and kings accept the mark of the beast? I’m assuming before, or what would be the point.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Remember Belshazhar. What was the point of then Daniel telling the imminent collapse of Babylon in last minute. The same is true with the annointed ones if they give witness after accepting the mark by the leaders.

            • Ed

              To be honest I really don’t know, but since you brought it up your forcing me to do some personal research, which would be useful especially at this pathetic time of year.
              Thanks brother Isaac.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              I too will do the same

            • Luis

              As soon as the beast rises they start witnessing. 😉

            • Ed

              Okay so the tormenting news is actually the good news. It’s finally been decoded.
              I remember the days knocking on peoples doors and being given the look of torment from the householder. All I was doing was spreading some good news or torment news which ever the case. Thanks for clearing that up brother Luis!

            • Luis

              No…. the good news are not the same as their witnessing… the good news are given now… the witnessing or the message of condemnation as the wt calls it will be given during the 42 months

            • Ed

              Okay, I think I get it now. So there’s maybe a two or three day grace period to decide on wither to accept the mark of the beast or not right after the global collapse, then immediately afterwards there is a message of torment for 42 months for those who never loved the truth to begin with.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Looks right

            • into the light

              Them giving the witness will be a result of being questioned. They will not go to preach to them. They will give witness while being judged.

            • Ed

              Thanks ITL I forgot about the part about them being in confinement.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Super tears of deep thought run down in my eyes.

            • Luis

              Actually Revelation shows that people will send presents to each other… when they are killed. That will surely show that they hate Christ as He said what you do to them is done to me.

            • Ken Rosenberg

              If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.

              This is how they torment the Earth. I shouldn’t have said the good news is the torment, but just because they torment the Earth, doesn’t mean they don’t preach the good news. Of course they preach the good news.

              “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

              “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them”

              Both verses say they are witnessing, obviously, from a Christian’s perspective, any message that is preached by God’s anointed is Good news. I just don’t know how you can say the watchtower is preaching the good news when they waste their time trying to convince people that Christ came in 1914, that doctrine itself is apostate by the Bible’s own standards, it is so apostate, that it will cost the lives of millions of JWs, per 2 Thessalonians 2, yet it is somehow good news?

              The Watchtower is already part of Babylon The Great, all religions are, they are just closer to the truth than any other religion, but that doesn’t mean they are God’s organization. They were never selected like the Israelites were.

            • Burt Reynolds

              The watchtower is not part of Babylon, though I can see why some think it would be. The watchtower is apart because of its purpose, and which is also reflected by temple scenarios of past times. They may not have been selected, but they are certainly used.

            • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

              By the way exceptional podcast really hit home it may keep me in my seat… Maybe you should also go up and make a sacrifice After all you’ve written like Paul did, maybe you should just do it or at least think about it..

        • into the light

          It’s interesting that on C.T. Russel’s gravestone it says “Laodicean Messenger” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa100b7e989002d3f5b032ec2a8260dee7ac39a9a986c923d6186a88976e2569.jpg

          • Beverly kenyon

            The Laodecian Messenger does not appear in the Bible and wasn’t CT Russell given that title after his death? Was it sanctioned by Rutherford to discredit Russell?! Could be wrong but if you read the Message to the Laodecian congregation in Rev4:14-22 you find the Lord, Jesus Christ advising them to buy gold from him and white garments and ointment for their eyes to be able to see and to stop being luke warm otherwise they’re going to be spat out of his mouth as it would appear they seem quite ‘comfortable’ and definitely complacent as Jesus says, ‘You say, I’m rich, I have everything I want or (I have the truth)’, but the reality is as Jesus points out. they are stark naked! They are in a shocking spiritual state and completely oblivious to the fact! Verse 20 you have Jesus lovingly seeking them out, he’s standing at the door, he’s gone to them, not them going to him and if they open the door to him he will share a meal with them and there’s nothing better to get to know a person than eating together, sharing a meal.

            That gravestone is really an insult to the founder member of the JW’s.

            • into the light

              Ok thanks for clarification, I wasn’t aware of that. I said it was interesting because Ken pointed to lukewarm water from Revelation 3, which is in relation to Laodicean congregation’s spiritual state, so that was the first thing that came to mind. And if you think about it, isn’t that precisely the state in which the congregation is today? Or at least we perceive it to be that way?

            • Beverly kenyon

              If you’re talking specifically about JW’s, yes I agree that’s the state they’re in, but looking at other Christian groups, some of them are in the same state, Luke warm, complacent, going through the motions. There’s a lot of irony in that gravestone of Russell’s in relation to the religion he started up, a lasting testimony all those years ago and it’s literally written in stone!

            • into the light

              Yes, I was talking about JW. I’m not sure about other Christian groups, especially the trinity-believing ones, and how they are relevant in connection with congregations form Revelation. I don’t have enough knowledge about them on which I could base my opinion. What I do know so far, though, speaks against them.
              But I’ve been wondering about the 7 congregation of Revelation and who they represent today. IMO it can’t be JW only, since Jesus had a unique message for each of those congregations, and JW as we know today, as a whole, could be considered one congregation despite having 120,053 congregations worldwide(as per 2017 Service Report). So I guess other Christian groups ought to have some connection with all this. Could it be that it only includes churches that were part of The Great Awakening” which also included Bible Students, and not the Christendom?
              And just to make sure, I think JW have a special role in prophecy because of the fact that they are the most prominent in announcing the kingdom.

            • Beverly kenyon

              So the Catholics must have a ‘special role in prophecy’ as because of the spread of Christanity its resulted in over one billion of their members then there’s the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists of which JW’s are an offshoot and the SDA’s Church Manuel declares: ‘Our highest responsibility is to the church and its commission to preach the gospel of the Kingdom to all the world’. They have about 26/28 million members, JW’s after 103 years of preaching have about 8 million members and there’s the Christadelphians, the Baptists who have the most missionaries of any religion, the Gideons International, these groups amongst others actively preach the Kingdom. Christianity is the world’s largest religion with billions of followers.

              The Apostle Paul wrote that not every Christain would preach. Eph4:11,12. JW’s preach the WT view of God’s Kingdom, which is mainly house to house and scripture does not indicate that to be a sign of who is God’s followers. There are 30 references to Jesus’ disciples preaching in synagogues, marketplace, temple and only 3 using the term ‘house to house’. Mark1:39. JW’s preach a fraction of the Kingdom of God. Just think about what Jesus at Luke 7:28 said, ‘I tell you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John. Yet, even the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is’! NLT.

              All Christian groups have their false doctrines, JW’s their 1914, Catholics their trinity, hellfire etc, etc and I’d like to see the proof of the Jw’s ‘special role in prophecy’ just to make sure.

            • As I pointed out, the Jews saw Christ perform all manner of miracles. They were not moved. I doubt if any amount of reasoning would move you. Like Jesus said, those who desire to do the will of God will know. The fact that you can’t distinguish the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Catholics pretty much says it all, in your case anyway.

            • Max

              You know your explanation of John 7:17 was the shining star part of the message for me. It shows how paramount it is to have the right heart disposition. It is the only way to understand that a teaching comes from God when we have the desire to do His will. That is the reason then why so few people accept the truth because they do not have the desire to do God’s will so they do not really recognize the message as the truth.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I agree with you. There has to come a point in the conclusion of things where the application of ‘love hopes all things, believes all things…’ will have its fulfilment, just as there comes a time when truth must be spoken, or else the very stones will cry out. Some continue the search for truth after they have found it, rather than embibe it. I too have worn that T shirt. But then, the recognition of the voice of Christ must heard and accepted at some point. A shining star as you rightly say.

            • The Raven

              True. Easiest way for folks to discern who’s who. Many are already showing their true natures well before these events occur. For some to reckon that Christ’s return will change them is a stretch given they are outright enemies who promote the inclusion of what and who Jehovah has made clear He detests. How can Christendom become any more apostate than they already are? Yet that is what is prophesied, isn’t it. Haven’t they done everything in their power past, present and will in the future to show exactly what they are? On the other hand, Jehovah’s witnesses, known by the name of God Himself will be the ones prophesied to fall into a great apostasy. If folks refuse to see it now, knowing the truth…what makes any of us expect them to see it later? They will look for supernatural signs and will see nothing because they did not believe. Why? Scripture says it plainly, they do not do God’s will, have no faith and will even beat their brothers and turn them over thinking they are doing God a sacred service. They are not ignorant. They had the truth and turned their backs on it to favor their own understanding in their sick of heart condition. I’m actually glad we’re seeing these folks early on. And there are lots of them. In calling out the errors and lies of God’s people they also become useful idiots for the devil’s brigades who is always more than happy to napalm Jehovah’s people. Especially the anointed. Their zeal for attacking them will not go unanswered. Telling the truth about scriptural warnings and judgments is one thing. Taking part in trying to deny, denounce and destroy Jehovah’s own exacts severe punishment and ultimately…death. This is not opinion. It is fact.
              The more these folks expose their true natures…the better. I remember what you said about those who, like you and I still stay close as much as we can to Jehovah’s people and even the anointed worldwide who wait for the day of Christ’s return and Jehovah’s wrath.

            • Max

              True! Now the only thing left for us to do is to prepare our hearts and minds to welcome the King and to stand firm free of fear Job 11: 13-20

            • Luis

              HAHAHAHAHAHA good point robert… 😂😂😂

            • ty for “puttung up” with Beverly.

              “beliefs” being the key word here but actions is another word. like you said, you have a hard time arguing to distinguish cult from Jehovah’s Witnesses, for one example.

              Jehovah’s witnesses can talk talk beliefs of truth and lies till their blue in the face but if they do not have love then they are nothing, not Christ-like. that can make it hard for Some to distinguish who are really Christian beliefs aside. the women at the well gave Jesus something to drink

            • into the light

              It’s hard to not be biased most of the time, but I have no problem putting myself in neutral position. I can give the benefit of the doubt when necessary. Catholics are only Christians in a name. They worship virgin Mary and saints, they literally bow down to carved images and are in essence the painted-over Roman pagan religion. Moreover, they didn’t achieve the membership by preaching but by sword and terror. They have been blessing weapons and soldiers and on both opposing sides, telling them God is with them, for crying out loud! And ultimately, they preach that merely by believing Jesus is lord they have a ticket to heaven. So what kind of Jesus are they preaching? Not the one I know from the scriptures for sure! 2 Corinthians 11:3, 4; Galatians 1:8 Mormons – please… they hold the book of Mormon in higher esteem than Bible. There are 3 SDA churches in cca. 5 km radius where I live and I have never in my 19 years living here seen one preaching, not a single one, while I see JW at least 3 times a week, every week in multiple locations. I talked to a girl preacher (not sure which group) years ago while waiting for subway and she told me that literal city of New Jerusalem will descend from the sky. As for Christadelphians, they also have a church close to where I am, but never seen them out preaching. But tbh, I know next to nothing about Christadelphians, except that I’ve seen on their church’s storefront some stuff about prophecies in connection with restoration of literal Israel and the temple on a TV screen that’s installed there. As for 1914, trinity, hellfire, etc., those are dogmas that have no scriptural support but are rather teachings of men.
              Now I have had my doubts about JW and in a way am still on the fence about them. But their basic doctrines are the truth, they are not fragmented like majority of others. They have uniform teaching all over the world. No sub-denominations and deviations from doctrine according to cultural sensibilities. Having said all this, I am convinced that the real truth will be known in the future when the anointed receive their sealing and when the spirit makes it completely clear. Until then the most important thing for me, and I think should be for others as well, is to cultivate the fruits of the spirit and live according to the example that Jesus gave us. Ultimately, we have faith and we all hope that we’re right, but it is up to Jesus to decide that upon his arrival. One thing is for sure — those who do his father’s will, will be saved. Just to make sure 😁

            • Max

              We JW only known basic truth like seeing in a hazy metal mirror but when what is complete comes everything will be set straight. just hung in there! 1 Corinthians 13: 9-12

            • into the light

              Thanks brother! I would ad vs. 13 in here, too, as those 3 things are what’s most important for us at present.

            • Thinking

              Brother you are correct and don’t let any try to waver or make you wobbly in your understanding..Even Russell admitted Jehovah could have used any of the reformist at that time…wether it be the Adventist Christeldephians waldeans millerrites ..whoever..but he didn’t as they stubbonly stuck to false doctrines…He was looking for an honest malleable Heart..one that would adapt to correct basic doctrines…it just happened to be Russell at that time..

              Without a doubt Russell spearheaded laying the ground for this and to start the removal from honest hearted ones to get out of BTG.
              Indeed one can not wonder if he felt at that time..the thoughts of ….would he find any faith left that he could even use or work with..
              It was Russell A keen bible student that he pouredout his Holy Spirit upon to open his eyes to the correct understanding of his words..basic bible doctorines
              So ask yourself…why didn’t he use the others who were so close to correct doctrines?…
              Why are these still in the dark about simple clear basic doctrines ..because he has not opened their eyes to such….he is not using them and their false teachings.

              This is what REVELATION 6 and the rider is all about

              Horses can represent good and bad things ridden by good or bad people But apparently only white horses were ridden by KINGS. As per Jewish writings
              The word HORSE can also apparently represent Doctrines..depending on who the rider is…( biblemeanings info)

              Habakkuk 2
              O God they doubt ride upon thy
              horses thy chariots are salvation . Thou hast made thy horses to tread in the sea.

              COMMENTARY from biblemeanings
              Where horses denote the divine truths which are in the word,chariots doctrine from them, the sea sea acknowledges (AC 28,2120) (that’s a reference there brother .)..and because these are of understanding of the Word from God it is said . Thou hast made thy horses to tread In the sea . Horses here are attributed to God As in the Apocalypse above to whom they cannot be attributed unless they signify such things .

              The rider of that white horse has a bow for a reason ..it is a significant one..

              Biblemeanings BOW
              That a bow signifies the doctrine of truth is evident from the following passages
              Isaiah 5;28
              Jehovah’s arrows are sharp and all his bows are bent the hoofs of his horses are counted as rock and his wheels as the whirlwind

              Here the truths of the doctrine are treated as arrows and spiritual truths ..bows are doctrines the horses hoofs are the natural truths (bible meanings)

              Jeremiah 4:29
              For the voice of the horseman and of him that shooters the bow the whole city fleeth, they have entered into clouds and climbed upon the rocks

              The horseman denotes those who declare truth and the bow the doctrine of truth which they who are in falsities flee from or fear in the same..

              Jeremiah 50:14.29 15:2’3
              Set yourself in array against Babel round about, all he that bend the bow shoot at her sparenot with the arrow for she has sinned against Jehovah…

              So the rider of the white horse is using the bow because he has just started his ride..and with arrows he will decimate false doctrines of BTG…as he gallops along in time he gets deeper into the time of the end ..and puts his bow away and picks up the sword..because he has a different work to do..that only a sword would symbolicly acheive ..

              Jehovah and Jesus clearly us the bow and sword…
              psalms 7:12
              If any one will not repent he sharpens his sword .
              He bends his bow and makes it ready
              He prepares his deadly weapons
              He makes ready his flaming arrows

              Jehovah’s witnesses have the basic doctrines correct because he used a man that was open to Holy Spirit and only interest in Truth..
              He could have used any of them..but he chose not to..
              He allowed the rider on the white horse in Rev 6… to direct his steps….this with Jehovah’s spirit he shot to pieces false doctrines that were inspired demonic expression that had the whole world under their control…

              What some are doing and a mistake they are making..is not realizing the bow sword and horse are also use for bad..

              Biblemeanings
              As a bow signifies the doctrine of the truth in the opposite sense it signifies the doctrin of falsity
              The same things in the word have usually an opposite sense as has been said and shown in several places

              Jeremiah 6:22,23
              Behold people come The from the north country and a great nation shall. Be stirred up from the sides of the earth they lay hold of the bow and spear they are cruel and will not have compassion their voice shall roR from the sea they shall ride upon their horses set in array as a man for battle against thee. …

              Jeremiah 9:3 they bend their tongue their bow is a lie and not for truth they are brome strong I. The land for they have gone forth from evil to evil and have not know me.

              Here the bow and arrows plainly denote things doctrinal falsity..

              We must pray for discernment and insight to understand these things….

              It’s okay to be struggling brother…if you were not. You should be very worried Indeed….
              Zechariah 13:8
              And in all the land declares Jehovah Two parts in it will be cut off and perish
              And the third part will be left remaining in it.
              And I will bring the third part thru the fire
              And I will refine them as silver is refined
              And test them as Gold is tested
              They will call on my name
              And I will answer them
              I will say they are my people
              And they will say Jehovah is my God

              You are being refined ITL….and as warped as it sounds …we need to take pleasure in it and count it an honour for us…

              Hang In There brother…you can do this….you ARE doing it!!!!!

            • Beverly kenyon

              ITL, I’m in no way extolling the ‘virtues’ of those Christian groups I mentioned as all of them have the fingerprints of the MOL all over them as isn’t the Whole world lying in the power of the wicked one. But was pointing out they do preach in which or whatever way they do that, hence their vast numbers. Reading the seven letters to the ecclesias in Revelation with the exception of the Philadephians, Jesus is pointing out their deeds and sinful state, he’s warning them and that’s very true at this time.

              And you’re right, it is up to to Jesus to decide upon his arrival. Matthew 25:31-46. For me personally, I give all organised religious groups a wide berth, but I feel free to attend any of them if I so choose and I have love for them as Christians as I can see them trying to serve God but their ‘leaders’ are failing them miserably in teaching them about the Bible.

            • If you have any doubts about the distinction between Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholics, or whatever, just wait for the next war. Catholics are sure to be in the fore front slaughtering the enemy, while Jehovah’s Witnesses will go to prisons and internment camps for refusing to kill for the state. That’s the way it was in WWII. No reason it should be any different next time around.

            • Song of Hannah

              That’s one of the reasons the prophesies about Ephraim seem to fit Christendom so well….

              “Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over. Foreigners sap his strength, but he does not realize it. His hair is sprinkled with gray, but he does not notice. Israel’s arrogance testifies against him, but despite all this he does not return to the Lord his God or search for him. “Ephraim is like a dove, easily deceived and senseless— now calling to Egypt, now turning to Assyria. When they go, I will throw my net over them; I will pull them down like the birds in the sky. When I hear them flocking together, I will catch them. Woe to them, because they have strayed from me! Destruction to them, because they have rebelled against me! I long to redeem them but they speak about me falsely. They do not cry out to me from their hearts but wail on their beds. They slash themselves, appealing to their gods for grain and new wine, but they turn away from me. I trained them and strengthened their arms, but they plot evil against me. They do not turn to the Most High; they are like a faulty bow. Their leaders will fall by the sword because of their insolent words. For this they will be ridiculed in the land of Egypt.
              Hosea 7:8-16 – NIV

            • Bklyn Kevin

              To support your thought Robert .

              Revelation 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.

            • Beverly kenyon

              I have no doubts at all about any distinctions between JW’s and Catholics, even though didn’t one of the WT lawyers himself compare the org to the Catholic hierarchy? I would have to go digging in my notes to be more precise on that point. That teaching appealed to me about the JW faith and to this day I proudly say I don’t support any sort of war.

              But Christians have a long history of refusing to go to war, apart from JW’s there are also the Mennonites, the Quakers who also refuse to go to war. Don’t the Org have shares in Lockheed who make weapons of war and Christians in this country contribute to war through paying their taxes.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Robert has you pegged right when he said “I doubt if any amount of reasoning would move you. Like Jesus said, those who desire to do the will of God will know.
              The fact that you can’t distinguish the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Catholics pretty much says it all, in your case anyway.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Pardon me for saying this but like you said, RK was talking to me and he said what he said to me and I took it on board so I’m baffled as to why you’re getting yourself involved in something that was said to me five hours ago. 🤔 It matters nothing to me if I’m ‘pegged’ so long as I’m not ‘pegged’ by God or the Christ. That’s the important thing to me but thank you Bklyn Kevin for your concern.

              Regards.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Last time I checked it is still a public forum isn’t it, so why would you be baffled at all unless you are just narcissistic and value your own opinion only.
              As per my involvement I was simply agreeing with Roberts thought and his observation of you in conjunction with the Bible.

              Now you said” It matters nothing to you that you are ‘pegged’ so long as your not ‘pegged’ by God or the Christ.
              Now I can surely agree with that thought you have but none the less the Bible clearly has ungodly people ‘pegged’ just please take notice of what Jesus said .

              Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.
              Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me?
              The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”John 8:43-47.
              Read mord>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/8/#v43008042-v43008047

            • Beverly kenyon

              You’re not my judge so please refrain from calling me names as I don’t see me bullying you by calling you names. I was polite to you and explained myself and so what if I was baffled by you getting yourself involved in a conversation that clearly did not involve you.

              Yet again thank you for your concern and for the link you’ve kindly provided. I’ll remind you also of the house rules of this blog.

              Matt 18:1-35. John 13:34.35. 1Cor13:1-13. James3:1-18. Eph4:20-32. Prov10:19.

              Now please leave me alone as I’m not bothering you am I?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Galatians 4:16 So, then, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

              There you go playing the victim again saying that I am judging you when I am not, the only thing I did was to suggest that perhaps you are being narcissistic because you seem to value your own opinion rather than what the Bible clearly says and every time I use the Bible to share scriptures with you you call it bullying when in reality because it is from the scriptures that I am using in order to appeal to your conscience as to show you the errors of your unbiblical thinking .
              so in reality it is the Bible that is judging you not me. I’m just the messenger so to speak.

              For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.
              Hebrews 4:12.

              so with that being said.

              You clearly requested I leave you alone as not to share anything biblical or scriptural with you and I will do just so by blocking you.
              May Jehovah have mercy on you and continue to bless your search.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Thank you Bklyn Kevin for putting me out of my misery. 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙏🏽

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have not read the issues thoroughly I admit, but might it not be that Beverley is simply saying that there are righteous people in many or all religions? As I was discussing with ITL, if we strip away the religious label, there are many who are righteous that are decieved as most of us, are, or were. Theoretically at least, we have parted company with the understanding of the general population of witnesses and divide keenly with the sword, the truth against the lie. If we can do that, why not others, were they informed as we are? I don’t know, maybe Beverly has difficulty in seeing through the labels and is simply speaking as best she can to make a point. That is true of 99% of the population I can tell you! Maybe Beverly sees that it is faith and longing for truth but people often find it not. Like me, maybe Beverly contemplates her own mortality and seeks to find a way to encompass all in the love and hope she seeks for herself from Jehovah.

              Certainly the governing body of Catholicism and the host of other religions, our own included, will wage war against the truth when the time comes, and we will all stand as individuals and our own meanderings will be straightened out. Sometimes apparant stubbornness is not born of belligerence, but of love, because as with Jehovah, we all want to find a way, or in human terms, a meaning, for all to be saved, and cling on to that because we see ourselves in that vulnerable position. We need to support each other in that love of others and to assume it so of others so that they may tolerate us.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Far as I’m concerned that particular matter is in Jehovah’s hands.
              However I will say this, We know for sure that Christendom is not on Jesus’s side and anyone who supports Christendom can not possibly be on Jesus’ side.

              ‘Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Luke 11:

              The God of gods, Jehovah, has spoken.
              Excerpt:
              As it stands now the world has essentially been divided into two camps. Those who do not know or call upon the name of Jehovah and those who do. From all appearances the stage is set for the judgment to begin. The 50th Psalm describes it this way: “The God of gods, Jehovah, has spoken; He summons the earth from the rising of the sun until its setting. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth. Our God will come and cannot remain silent. Before him is a consuming fire, and a great storm rages all around him. He summons the heavens above and the earth, so as to judge his people: ‘Gather to me my loyal ones, those making a covenant with me over sacrifice.’ The heavens proclaim his righteousness, for God himself is Judge.”
              The coming global calamity will serve as the official summons to all the earth —the “earth” being, not the literal planet, but rather, the earthlings that inhabit it.
              As the Christian apostle, Peter, revealed, judgment starts with God’s house first. (1 Peter 4:17) It is against the backdrop of nation rising against nation, global food shortages and searing pestilences, the consuming fire of Jehovah’s judgment will initiate a conflagration among those who hypocritically call upon the name of Jehovah among the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The prophecy of Isaiah describes it this way: “‘Now I will rise up,’ says Jehovah, ‘now I will exalt myself; now I will magnify myself. You conceive dried grass and give birth to stubble. Your own spirit will consume you like a fire. And peoples will become as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut down, they will be set ablaze with fire. You who are far away, listen to what I will do! And you who are nearby, acknowledge my might! The sinners in Zion are in dread; trembling has seized the apostates: ‘Who of us can live where there is a consuming fire? Who of us can live with unquenchable flames?’” —Isaiah 33:10-14
              The gathering of God’s loyal ones to him will take place outside the purview of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. All those who continue to call upon the name of Jehovah during the coming conflagration will be brought into a new reality. Then, Jehovah will place his name upon individuals, rather than an organization. Those individuals are spoken of as having the name of the Father and the Lamb written upon the foreheads. (Revelation 14:1) Obviously, those who refuse to recognize God’s personal name or who embrace the lie that Jesus is God, cannot possibly be among the 144,000 chosen ones who have both the name of the Father and the Lamb written upon them. Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/jehovah-god/

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I agree, but I did not draw that conclusion from what Beverly was suggesting. My opinion was that Beverley was simply suggesting that there are indeed those that love righteousness within such establishments, just as there are in the watchtower. If Beverley was suggesting that Catholicism is somehow representitive in the the same way as the watchtower, I would disagree. I was questioning the matter from an emotive source as stated in my remarks to you. Maybe I have not seen something that is staring me in the face and in which case I apologise for sticking my nose in!

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              You are right. No one can say Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholics are same because some people don’t know about Hindus. If you see the Hindus then compare Catholic they are one and the same.
              Hindu: Use Idols in worship = Catholic: Idols of Mary and Jesus
              Hindu: Bala Krishna = Catholic: Bala Kristha (Bala= Infant)
              Hindu: Bharama Vishnu Maheswara = Catholic: Father Son and Holy Spirit
              Hindu: Mariamma (demi goddesses) = Catholic: Mary-amma (amma = Mother)
              Hindu: Pooja = Catholic: Same rituals in mass
              Hindu: Pooja bell = Catholic: Church bell
              Hindu: Mariamma processions = Catholic: Mary’s festival (8th Sept)
              Hindu: Offering saree to Mariamma = Catholic: Offering saree to Velangani Mary
              Hindu: incenses sticks used = Catholic: Incenses sticks used for idols of
              Jesus and Mary.
              Hindu: offering hairs to Mariamma = Catholic: Offering hair to Velangani Mary.

              Now put Jehovah’s witnesses against on each of the above list and tell them to prove JW = Catholic.

              The hierarchy of JWs, false prophecies and Child abuse cases are similar to Catholics is what some say that is true but that is a different story.

            • Max

              wow! thank you for educating us. Are you from India?

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Yes I am From India: Coimbatore/Bangalore/Mysore. Robert gave a big shout in the podcast listeners from India. He is mentioning thinking of me I know. It is only me there is also another from Kerala but not a regular reader.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              I appreciate your answer though WTS is corrupt but people will not take guns to fight that’s exactly right difference between Catholic and JWS.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Monty Python . ‘Nobody expects the Catholic inquisition!’

            • and what will those who call themselfs to be JW’s, God’s people, be in the fore about? Jew’s ate their own children while real Jew’s followed Christ and left before SHTF.
              its like you yourself said, the way some are acting now can reflect what they will be like more so come the GT.
              but yet other God fearing people who do good now will be exposed then too? yeah, true. so it works both ways any true colors will show of those who call themselvs Jehovah’s Witnesses as much as anyone else who says they are Christian

            • Bklyn Kevin

              A good question to ask oneself concerning Christendom.

              How could Christendom on a whole have the name of the father and the son written upon their foreheads and be saved when they clearly are Antichrist because they claim that Jesus is Jehovah GOD with they’re Trinity doctoring?

              Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
              Revelation 14:1

              These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; [false religion] in fact, they are “virgins”. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish
              Revelation 14:4-5.

              Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion* of her sexual immorality!”Revelation 14:8.

              Greek, por·neiʹa. See Glossary.
              Glossary Term
              Sexual immorality.
              From the Greek por·neiʹa, a general term for all unlawful sexual intercourse. It includes adultery, prostitution, sexual relations between unmarried individuals, homosexuality, and bestiality. It is used figuratively in Revelation with regard to a religious prostitute called “Babylon the Great” to describe her consorting with the rulers of this world for power and material gain. (Rev 14:8; 17:2; 18:3; Mt 5:32; Ac 15:29; Ga 5:19)​—See PROSTITUTE.

            • Beverly kenyon

              The only anti Christ I know about is that white horse rider in Revelation 6 and his identity will be revealed when the Restrainer is taken out of the way and that fake ‘Prince of Peace’ begins his ride as he will be deadly to mankind with his smooth butter words. I don’t have to ‘See PROSTITUTE as I’m well aware what a sex worker is. Didn’t the organisation ‘prostitute themselves for ten long years when they hopped into bed with the Beast (UN), and would still be engaging in ‘unlawful sexual intercourse’ with the Beast, oh, but wait, I remember, they were caught!

              But thank you Bklyn Kevin for those marvellous scriptures, reminding me of the destruction of Satan’s weapons of mass destruction…..ALL RELIGION!

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You are obviously lost…

              lost
              lôst,läst/Submit
              1.
              past and past participle of lose.
              adjective
              1.
              unable to find one’s way; not knowing one’s whereabouts.
              “Help! We’re lost!”
              synonyms: off course, off track, disorientated, having lost one’s bearings, going around in circles, adrift, at sea, astray
              “I think we’re lost”
              2.
              denoting something that has been taken away or cannot be recovered.
              “if only one could recapture one’s lost youth!”
              synonyms: bygone, past, former, one-time, previous, old, olden, departed, vanished, forgotten, consigned to oblivion, extinct, dead, gone
              “lost traditions”

            • into the light

              No need to be condescending, Kevin. It basically cancels out all the scripture you use to prove something.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              I wasn’t being condescending but you can read into it / assume what you want.

              But if anybody continues to follow Christendom and their ideologies then it is obvious they are lost and isn’t that what Beverly kenyon has been doing – promoting Christendom.
              So then she must be lost or what else am I to believe.

              Then he also told them an illustration: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will fall into a pit, will they not? Luke 6:39

            • into the light

              I didn’t get the impression that she follows or promotes Christendom, only that she puts all of those who profess faith in Christ in the same basket. On the other hand I see that she is eager to know Christ, and that is commendable.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The mouth of wayward* women is a deep pit.
              The one condemned by Jehovah will fall into it.Proverbs 22:14

              Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men / [woman] of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites,* and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.
              Romans 16:17 -19

            • The Raven

              Yes, indeed. How easily folks forget the days of small beginnings to legitimize their own precarious standing by inviting apostates to the fold. Insisting God or Christ alone can judge while pulling others down with them. Haha! Classic. But Jehovah knows all. Who will be able to stand indeed! There certainly is a blindness at work inside and out but not all can claim ignorance. No. Many know exactly what they’re doing and even plot with others to mislead. I wouldn’t be too concerned by it. It’s merely another indication of the fulfillment of prophecy though some refuse to see it. It will not even be remembered when it’s done.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You’re absolutely right not to be too concerned about it cuz in the long run Jehovah will take care of those who are not obedient to the word of God, just like he did in the case of Janʹnes and Jamʹbres who opposed Moses, not to mention Korah and his clan who got swallowed up by the earth when they tried to usurp Moses Authority.
              Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/numbers/16/#v4016020-v4016050

              Timothy 3:8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly* will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men.

            • Burt Reynolds

              But to do so, my old Raven, one must first know the intention of the heart. The bible is worded to answer every human emotion so it seems. I could, even in my ignorance, load my ‘Magnum’ Opus at you and quote scripture that would support Beverly from an entirely unconsidered view of her comments. But as you know anyone can, I won’t. It is far better that we tolerate apparant difference, until it declares itself, just as Jehovah does and is doing with the world and the watchtower and all who would aspire to his mercy.

            • The Raven

              Well, Burt that would be called cherry picking. Just as a number of folks here continue to do and deny even what we do know. I won’t ride that train, my friend. It’s true some things remain unknown but…that is no excuse to allow ourselves to be led down the primrose path. It doesn’t matter who anyone is or who you think I’m addressing here, (lol!) That’s how folks lose their grip of whatever little truth they do have. We are warned not to allow ourselves to be shaken from our reasoning aren’t we? What’s the purpose in any of this? Why the exortations to remain steadfast from Christ, jehovah and all the ancients and anointed? Why not just say none of it matters at all? Because that is the ultimate end of that view and I’m not going there. It does matter. The question is asked many times about why we have been awakened to the deeper truths and others, not. We all know there are reasons jehovah draws us near. If this doesn’t figure in then whats the purpose in it? Why waste time here at all and what is the point in the wt? What is the point in knowing Jehovah’s name? Whats the point in anything?
              I left that behind me decades ago. Of course, folks are free to return to whatever with a brand spankin new “understanding”.
              I ain’t buying it.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I feel I must have missed some clear opposition but as I said to Kevin, I did not notice it so. For my part, I have a basic truth and from which, I do not intend to be moved, either by what is said, or suggested or inferred by people. What does shift my opinion, as to what is said, suggested or inferred, is by what is written….in the bible. But for some, it is not that easy. However, though the bible illustrates wrong thinking and its consequences, the judgement remains with Jehovah and Jesus. Perhaps I labour too much under my years of social work, where I have been exposed to a multiplicity of reasoning, that though bizarre on the surface, did indeed have its feet in noble and rational thinking. I have even been hauled before Court to argue the point. There are indeed so many degrees between right and wrong, understanding and defiance. Perhaps it is easier for those that are so certain that they are willing to answer to Jehovah directly. It’s something I would rather avoid.

            • The Raven

              I don’t think any of us can avoid facing scriptural facts. I can’t reason it away. But supporting it does not place us in a judgement seat anymore than it does for instance, Robert.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You’re right none of us should avoid the scriptural facts but none the less many do in order to appease their own conscience /guilt.
              also it is scripturally obvious to me that when people do avoid the biblical facts they are either ignorant or have a seared conscience.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Burt you said “There are indeed so many degrees between right and wrong, understanding and defiance. Perhaps it is easier for those that are so certain that they are willing to answer to Jehovah directly. It’s something I would rather avoid.

              That’s why Jehovah lovingly left us his Bible Burt so that we can discern what / who is wicked and what it is not – also that we can be better equipped to avoid the world and its practices as well as its worldly people because he knew our understanding is corrupted and better yet he sent his only begotten son so that we would have a perfect example to follow not to mention the apostles as well and true brothers like Robert King.

              Trust in Jehovah with all your heart,
              And do not rely on your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5 Readmore>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/proverbs/3/#v20003005

              No other good news (6-9).6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away* from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble+ and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              For out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks

              “For no fine tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces fine fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit.For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thorn bush.
              A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings what is wicked out of his wicked treasure; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks Luke 6:43-45 Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/luke/6/#v42006043-v42006045

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I agree. I am not questioning the clarity of the bible, simply the motive and understanding, insight and analysis that though clear to some, may not be to them. Thus is not necessarily belligerence, but perception. That is not a reason in my mind, to not discuss it further. There are of course, no definitive Outcomes as yet, but if the channel is left open, may later appear. I’m not taking sides, simply trying to point out other inferences in the bible that also touch on the issue. If I could locate where these are, it would no doubt clarify my words more clearly, but unfortunately, I cannot. I can only reiterate the sentiment and value that they extend to all. These are of course, the issues of love that provide the balance to justice and long suffering. Not that we any of us, ignore such, but we all have differing values that may inhibit its employment. I guess that is the limit of my consideration, and that is all the suggestion is for, consideration.

            • The Raven

              There is something else I think needs to be made clear. From what I have read here I have no way of knowing what the intention of the heart is. Just words. Words which reveal a great deal. That’s all we have bottom line. Just as words were given to us by Jehovah through inspired men I take it as it reads. There is nothing vague about some of the statements made here and it is to that which I reply with a mindful view to God’s word.
              I can speak for some here to a limited extent given what they wrote concerning these matters. At no time has Kevin or I ever stated that only jws would be saved. That would be incorrect given a number of accounts in scripture. In fact I went several rounds with folks here trying to find any evidence for salvation of folks outside the jws. I had a great deal of interest in that matter as you know.
              Kevin was the one who ultimately made the case for individuals to attain salvation through their faith and I was darn happy to know that considering my own situation and never having been baptized. You might say since I believed I had one foot on a banana peel and the other at the edge of Gehenna it would have been much more understandable to bash the wt and Jehovah’s arrangement and delude myself into thinking none of that matters anyway. But…I couldn’t do that. Why?
              It hurt like hell but it was the truth and I couldn’t deny that Jehovah did in fact have much to do with them and continues to do so. They are remarkable and unique among humanity for a number of reasons. So…how to reconcile this? You yourself have seen and been part of the discussions some of us engaged in in our attempts to find some scriptural basis for salvation of others, including many like those here. But I realized I could not shove a collective apostate faith into the house of God or place them under the umbrella of consideration when numerous scripture makes clear that is wrong just to appease my own sense of righteousness and save my hide, so to speak or that of people I cared for. No. Kevin made clear and so has Robert through his words that the opportunity exists and there is no need to debase Jehovah’s arrangement to do that. So have a number of others here. Yourself included way more times than I can remember. But even so, It matters not what the motivation is. It matters what Jehovah says.
              Will folks see the Christ when He arrives? I believe they will if they are rightly disposed. Will a few come from among other faiths? Scripture does support that if they accept Him. In that small window of time between downfall and judgement I think, based on scripture the chance to save some will be present . First for His people and then for the rest of humanity.
              But I will never go back to those absolutely pagan and often demonic faiths or ways I came out of. Nor will I ever even attempt to claim Jehovah even considers any of them as a whole. I will reiterate that it is not necessary to deny Jehovah’s arrangement and His people to attain life. He has a people for His name and the sons of God have Jehovah’s name and Christ’s name written on them. That is clear. I thank Jehovah every day for drawing me to the truth and for leading me here to know the rest of the story. I hope that gives you some idea of where I stand on the matter and in part where Kevin does. I can’t go any further than that since he made a reply to you which sums up a little more on his own thoughts.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I absolutely agree. I have no qualification to teach, and though I disagree with what Beverley appears to be saying, I would not close the door. Jehovah has not yet, neither should I. I do not think I have ever done that. Though we rest in our belief, we ourselves are not perfect so as to be absolute in our expressions that what we say is a true reflection of what Jehovah says. Some may be certain, but my conscience does not allow me to be exacting, even in areas to a degree, to such things as aspects of homosexuality, because I know that there may be a genetic fault. Yet that does not in itself, excuse practice. So as I said, we divide with a thin sharp sword and I do not feel certain myself, so should not expect such of others. I know it may be clear to some, but I cannot boast such. That is really all I am saying as a person’s view of valuing people. I always have in the back of my mind a sharp stone that upon it is written that it has taken me a whole lifetime to find , not so much the knowledge of the truth, but the love of the truth, and though that does not fail, neither does it give up. So don’t take to heart what I say. I know and have said, it is a very thin line. I simply try to look down both sides. I am sure my sins stack up clear to heaven and I just don’t want to add more than I can help!

            • The Raven

              Very deep ideas and it’s not in the execution of a thought that I loiter but the actual stated words. Whatever the intent. We all question, do we not? No one wants to see people perish least of all ourselves. But ultimately it is Jehovah’s views which matter and I dare say the basics are non negotiable. Christ also makes that clear. I parted ways on prophecy with them long ago so I can honestly say they did not influence my thinking on many matters. I tried to be objective but also had to put up with stupid accusations of being brainwashed by the wt from those who simply disagreed or hated them. Which is ridiculous. Truth should never be ignored because of who says it. But neither should lies. I value your thoughts a great deal, and I know this is long, but this is why I will go to lengths to clarify an issue. I welcome and always consider your points (numerous at times!) of view.

            • Burt Reynolds

              A good point. Thank you.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Burt you said “I absolutely agree. I have no qualification to teach, and though I disagree with what Beverley appears to be saying.

              Burt I appreciate your loving big heart and you are truly genuine in your efforts but please note Paul’s advice when trying to help others.

              Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be “tempted”.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thank you for your insight. Yes, I agree with all that the scriptures say. If there is a suggested comparison of the prophesy concerning the witnesses with the teachers of Christendom, when it is clear that there is no comparison, then yes, that is foolhardy and ignores the evidence. My only concern in this matter is of course not to divide or cause offence, but simply to recognise that just as we hope many witnesses stand apart from, or will stand apart from their leadership and their lies when shown the truth through Christ’s parousia, so to the innocent searchers of Christendom may also. If we did not believe this to be so, then what is the point of our ministry to these ones and that Christ told us to do? Essentially, that is all I refer to.

              In terms of what I read of what Beverley was suggesting, I understood that issue to be the cause she was championing. Some see the issues through a glass darkly. Paul made the suggestion that there was so much more to understand. To this end, ( without being unfair to anyone ) it may be more difficult to write or express thoughts eloquently and with insight. Something that at often times affects all of us. Some of us are imaginative, or emotive, or cannot as yet see the whole picture, but like many of Jesus’ followers, did not understand. For instance, they were expecting Jesus to take up his crown in Jerusalem and were dismayed at his death. Had there been diciples there with understanding, then they would have emphatically remonstrated with those who did not. Thus I just worry about when to draw the line in meeting with another’s difficulty in seeing, and their possible intransigence. We would not want to discourage a person and possibly loose them because of our own wrestling with patience. I guess that is all that my argument is! Thanks anyway for your insight. Most appreciated and helps me think things through for balance in my thinking.

            • The Raven

              There’s something else to consider in this, the inclusion of what are deemed apostates is also fashioned with a more nefarious purpose and that is clear among many ex jws; the denial that jws have any special part in anything. In other words, to elevate Christendom to their level, a level which Jehovah made clear, is to debase Jehovah’s people. The Holy Roman empire did just that and for 1700 years has been the face of so called “christianity” so much so that jws are not even considered “christians” by their definitions and doctrines.
              The mantra among the exs is that jws are not God’s people. Jehovah’s name means nothing Christ alone saves. Jws have not accomplished anything of significance, jws are no better than the catholics or (insert apostates here) groups and jws don’t recognize Christ or “minimize” Him. So…in order to justify many of those ideas it becomes necessary to debase jws. But the ironic part of all this is judgement will come to jws first but…here’s the kicker…the rest of the world gets their chance afterwards. Doesn’t matter where or what they are part of or not. Even atheists. Everyone! Given the determination to destroy jws by undermining them are we really expecting those who do these things to actually be among any of the right hearted people who will be able to see Christ when He arrives? I don’t think so but hey, even the most evil among humanity might suddenly “get religion” so to speak. LOL! Max commented that he thought it might be easier for a good hearted atheist to see these matters than it was for witnesses. In OR out!
              There may be quite a bit of truth in that thought! Just some stuff for you to chew on Kevin. I know you’ve given me plenty to study these past few months and I’m grateful for it. Even the “correction” from time to time. Hahaha!
              Just kidding, man. I thank you.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              It is I who should thank you for the study because I learned a great deal, you know what the Bible says “iron sharpens iron”.

            • The Raven

              I do know this; you speak from a love of truth, fellowman and God. You have always given credit to Jehovah and that tells me where you’re coming from. Even when I may not have understood clearly or completely and struggled with a good bit of Robert’s reasoning at times, I could see what motivated you in your replies and instruction. That in my view is a good quality and it’s in short supply in a world where so many want recognition before all.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Yeah I didn’t read that thought by Max, thanks for bringing that up as it gives me a lot to chew on as you say and yes there is a lot of Truth to Max’s thought.

            • Beverly kenyon

              ‘I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak’. Matt 12:36 ESV

              ‘But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck’. Mark 9:42. NLT

              ‘So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good’. 1 Peter 2:1-3. ESV

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Brother one point I want to add for you may be it is a helping hand to you.

              Even if people of the Christendom had to be saved they have to first accept the name of Jehovah at least how the thief has accepted the truth in the last minute when he was along with Jesus in the torture stake. Why I am telling means many people are not satisfied if you say that Jehovah will save only the JWs and what about billions others? I think that is what the thinking is going on in Sister Beverly kenyon mind.

              See brother if Jehovah destroys billions then they will say what some critics name Jehovah as bloody thirsty God and that will become true.

              The point is if someone asks will Jehovah destroy all mankind except JWS. We need to tell people the example of thief next to Jesus who was saved in the last minute. That is humankind will have to accept Jehovah and Jesus before the mark of the beast, after accepting the mark of the beast it is waste.

              I once said a person the thief’s last minute example that satisfied him and went without telling a word. Is that not right and truth so that people will not think bad of Jehovah if we say that Jehovah will only save JWS?

              I think so that WTS has not brought this last minute saved thief because if they say then many people will not respond to the good news and many people will not do field service and the increase in the number of members to the WTS will decline.
              If you tell that Jehovah will save only JWs then we are indirectly equating Jehovah with Hindu demi-goddesses Chamundeshwari who is also a blood thirsty goddesses, whose habit is to save only her people similar to the term only JWs will be saved by Jehovah. Just think what lesson we learn from the last minute saved thief next to Jesus?

              We should not tell to this example to keep people silent or end the argument but I believe that is the truth that last minute and last chance is given to the people to chose between Jehovah-Jesus OR Satan before destroying. In that way not only the JWS will be saved but also others those who accept the name of Jehovah and Jesus just as the thief next to Jesus accepted the truth in the last minute. See at that point the WTS itself will not be there to guide its people.

              So bearing the name of Jehovah plays a important role. Even that thief next to Jesus knew Jehovah and if he were a Jew he would have even worshiped him. The only thing at that point of time he has to know was Jesus. But now to all the people of the world including Christendom Jesus is known and even many Hindus in Indis worship Jesus, they give worshipful honor to Jesus better than their gods because their gods have many wives. So what they need to be known at this point is Jehovah.
              AM I RIGHT? REPLY ME.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you Ezekiel 3:18

              What people need to know is the absolute truth especially in view of there Eternal lives.

              First of all I never said that only Jehovah’s Witnesses will saved .

              Second of all it’s very important to remember that only Noah and seven other members of his family were saved / Survived the Great tribulations of old, one should ask themself why only 8 people when obviously there were Millions?.
              Read more>

              And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. Read more>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-peter/2/#v61002005

              Read the actual account.
              Sons of God take wives on earth (1-3)
              Nephilim born (4)
              Mankind’s badness saddens Jehovah (5-8)
              Noah commissioned to build an ark (9-16)
              God proclaims the coming of the Flood (17-22)
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/genesis/6/#v1006011-v1006013

            • The Raven

              he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you Ezekiel 3:18

              That puts it into a whole new light. I remember that scripture from my few months in study. Some of the brothers and sisters related accounts of folks telling them not to return again. They complied with that request. That then removes responsibility from the witnesses. But as long as they were still listening or open to discussion, explanation or correction they continued to visit.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              In reality what they’re doing is shutting the door ON Jesus’ but there’s coming a time when Jesus will shut the door on them.

              Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take the evening meal with him and he with me. Revelation 3:20.
              Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.
              When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’Luke 23 24-25
              Read more> .https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/luke/13/#v42013025

            • The Raven

              10-4. Very few. Thanks, man.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              That’s pretty much what I had concluded.
              when people unequivocally Express that they do not want you to call back at their door or in a conversation where the Bible is concerned we are to consider them a do not return as to respect their wishes then fill out a slip to that effect and return it to the Kingdom Hall to the overseer of field service.

              “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you enter the house, greet the household. If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city.Matthew 10:11-15.

            • The Raven

              I can also attest that Kevin never said only jws will be saved. In fact I’ve had some lengthy discussions on this matter with him and we both agree, although we believe they are Jehovah’s people and they will make up the core of the subjects of the new kingdom and judgement begins with them, they will be joined by individuals from the nations… not collective religious institutions as Jehovah has only one. That rules out Christendom etc. but scripture does state that folks will be saved by their faith in Christ and they will have the right condition of heart, wherever they be found. I don’t think Kevin has ever said differently. It pretty much goes in line with Robert’s thoughts on this. Some folks have made it clear they do not agree with Robert’s views either. That’s the way it is. Once someone gives a “do not call back” to someone…just as the brothers and sisters did out in field service, they will honor that request as Kevin has.

            • into the light

              I agree with you. Because if it was only JW or any other individual group, then what is the point of judgment? God is impartial. Even when we recognize the Son as having complete authority, we never think of him as almighty. We recognize that even Jesus submits to him. But the fact is that it is him that we need to submit to in order to get to Father. It’s not only that we need to believe in Father, we need to believe the Father. If we believe him then we follow the Son.

              Christendom and some other denominations got it wrong because they worship Jesus as god. So they don’t believe the Father. But there are other groups who also recognize the nature of Son as being separate from Father, but they don’t necessarily use name Jehovah. They accept both Father and Son, they recognize the their relationship and believe practically the same things as JW, namely that that god gave his son as a ransom and that no one comes to father except through the Son. What about them? You can’t judge them based on not using the name. If they take up the task that was commissioned by Jesus and proclaim him and his kingdom, that’s also a basis for salvation, is it not? Ultimately, why is there a need for mediator between men and God? Because we can’t get to God in our present imperfect state. And no one will be to get to him until we’re sanctified and brought back into the right condition by Son, who will then present us back to Father.The point of believing in Son, and accepting his authority is that he may lead us back to Father. In him we recognize the Father and that’s why we want to follow. The criminal that believed in Jesus wasn’t promised life on account of believing in Father. That was a given. It was because he expressed faith in Son. By believing in him he also believed Jehovah.

              John 3:36
              The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              To Respected Sister Beverly kenyon:
              Didn’t the organisation ‘prostitute themselves for ten long years when they hopped into bed with the Beast (UN)? This is the exact point your brought. I appreciate you.

              But see Ez:16:2 Says: “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her detestable practices. 35. “Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of Jehovah. 36 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Because your lust has been poured out and your nakedness has been exposed during your prostitution with your lovers …….37.I will collect them together against you from all around and expose your nakedness to them, and they will see you completely naked.

              Jehovah himself calls the Jerusalem as Prostitute. Jehovah even says that this prostitute is different from other prostitutes. Just See Ez: 16:33: People give all prostitutes a gift, but you are the one who has given gifts to all those lusting after you, and you bribe them to come to you from all around to commit prostitution. 34 You are the opposite of other women who engage in prostitution. No one commits prostitution your way! You pay others, and they do not pay you. Your way is the opposite.’ Read verse:28-29 and verse 51 still worst (Jehovah is telling).

              Even though Jerusalem was a different and unique prostitute why she was not killed by Jehovah just as the prostitute of Revelation:17:16?

              THE POINT IS JERUSALEM BEAR THE NAME OF JEHOVAH AND THAT PLAYS THE DIFFERENCE.

              Jehovah will not discredit even a prostitute if they bear the name of Jehovah. Look Jehovah did not destroy prostitute Rahab along with other people of Jericho because Rahab accepted.

              Similarly though WTS has committed prostitution Yes you are correct as you said. But they bear the name of Jehovah and responsible for spreading the name of Jehovah otherwise I would have not known Jehovah in India here in North Karnataka and in Coimbatore.

              But Jehovah will not leave the prostitution committed by WTS. So it is said at Ez: 16:60: But I myself will remember the covenant that I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you a permanent covenant.

              But remember before that what Jehovah will do? Just as how Rahba accepted Jehovah before the destruction of Jericho similarly Jehovah will do as said in Zech: 13:8-9: And in all the land,” declares Jehovah, “Two parts in it will be cut off and perish; And the third part will be left remaining in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested.They will call on my name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people,’And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God.’”

              This is the main reason why I believe that WTS is still Gods ORG even though I have the full knowledge of their prostitution.

              Still Jehovah will not discredit the genuine people those who fear him and are temporarily under the WTS. Remember did Jehovah destroyed Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel because Jerusalem was a prostitute?

            • Anderiega

              Sure is enough to just make ya wanna stay home and just read your Bible and do charity/volunteer work on your own! Everybody (every denomination) has their own “weeds.” For me… AKA IMO….this just proves that God and Jesus are working with individuals….not organizations. “By this people will know you are my disciples….if you have LOVE among yourselves.” Find or stay in your congregation if it has LOVE. Ignore the weeds and pray for Holy Spirit to bless you with wisdom and understanding and keep practicing love in the meantime. (Just my piddly 2 cents).

            • into the light

              Thanks for encouragement. That is my position as well, love, that is. But regarding individuals, what I don’t understand is if, let’s assume, all Christians are part of the spiritual body under the headship of the Christ, then why is there no oneness of spirit among them? Please consider this scripture: Ephesians 4:13-16 (emphasis on vs 16). Christendom and all other denominations are not the members that support the body, they don’t listen to head. Each of those members is going after its own desires and in worst case are actually working against the head. Except JW, imo. They are a compact body who has achieved that oneness, one hand washes the other and so on… They have no subdivisions and differing doctrines in different parts of the world. Granted, they sometimes bury the truth in order to preserve the unity, but still… Even in the times of apostles there was one compact body. All congregations were lead by same spirit. Apostles made sure that was the case. So there needs to be that body. It can’t be scattered.
              I don’t know, it gets more confusing, the more I try to figure it out.

            • Anderiega

              Couldn’t have said it better myself: “it gets more confusing the more I try to figure it out.” Maybe that’s our problem!…… trying to figure truth out. Perhaps the answer is so absurdly simple….to be loving, to be Christians, to look after orphans and widows, and to just be “man”….”the image of God” one day at a time.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I don’t think we are asked to figure it out. The truth is simple. Love, faith, righteousness. To love Christ. To recognise Jehovah and his son, in all that we do and to conduct ourselves as we should. The command to the witnesses and the temple priests of long ago, was to teach the basic truths. We all know what they are. Jehovah would not keep secret from anyone, the means to attain life, would he?

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt, you have a remarkable gift of summing things up. The last sentence is so powerful.

              The discussion here seems to be about examining other sects/groups etc and some adhere to JW’s only and others are inclined to include others. I personally think the great crowd will consist of many people who did not know Jehovah before the tribulation but through reasoning and perhaps sheer fright realise what is happening.

              Who is Jehovah referring to in 2 Peter 3 9 : ‘Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.’

              I focus on the words anyone and desires all here. What do they mean?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I am of the same opinion as you Jamie. I expressed my understanding of what you say here to ITL, if you care to trawl through my ramblings!

            • into the light

              The truth is simple and obvious and there is no need to figure it out. I believe it speaks directly to our hearts. What I meant by “figure it out” is in line with the original idea as discussed with Beverly, namely that all Christians somehow fit into the story. I exclude Christendom and especially Catholics from that, for obvious reasons, and am wondering about other groups who formed during the Great Awakening who have similar beliefs and practices as JW. The problem for me is that only JW, as far as I am aware, are the compact body, with oneness of spirit which Paul talked about. Now, I am aware that this oneness is not achieved purely by the spirit of truth, but the unity among them is undeniable. So where does that leave the others who try to hold to these basic truths? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Podcast #1 https://e-watchman.com/podcast-1/

              This is the first of a renewed commitment to my regularly producing podcasts in order to answer questions from you, the listener. This episode considers questions regarding whether Jehovah’s Witnesses ought not to leave the Watchtower organization in view of its error and corruption. And is the Watchtower Babylon the Great?
              What about those who do not believe 1914?. Read more>

              https://e-watchman.com/believe-1914/

            • into the light

              I listened the first few minutes of the podcast and will pick it up later. But right off top there is a false premise that Jehovah caused his name to reside with JW, like he did in ancient times with the temple. Christian congregation is different than Jews and any direct comparison between them is misleading. Did inspired apostles ever claim that god caused his name to reside with them? Or did they preach Jesus’ teachings?

              Maybe I’m missing something that will be brought forth later in the podcast but I just wanted to point this out.

            • You are apparently missing quite a bit. First, under inspiration Peter explained to the other apostles and older men how the anointing of non-Jewish persons was fulfilling the prophecy of Amos, where it says: “God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah,* who is doing these things, known from of old.’”
              Jesus was not known from of old in the first century. He was a new-comer, at least as far as humans were concerned. The point is, the apostle taught that the name of Jehovah was being conferred upon Christians, regardless of heredity. But in actuality, the prophecy pf Amos is a prophecy regarding the return of Christ, which means that Christians living then would be associated with the name of God.

            • into the light

              I am aware of that. But that is still future, isn’t it? The calling is still taking place. I am aware that JW are calling people to come over to god’s side and by doing that they are fulfilling the task given by Jesus. But that doesn’t mean that the tent of David is restored yet. So far my understanding is that the choosing will take place during the hour of test. God will choose for his name those who stay faithful and don’t bend their knee to Satan during that crucial period. And I’m pretty sure that among those there will be many who are not in the org. But as I said I’ll pick up the rest of the podcast later to hear the points you bring.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, you have a point. The way I look at it is holistically. I tend not to divide people into religions, and which divides us as people. I prefer instead to measure people against their reasonableness to listen to the word of Jehovah. That saves us having to judge others and so condemn ourselves, yet allows us a measure of decision as to association. This way, we can biblically ‘shake the sand from our shoes’ and also, to form an opinion based on their relationship with Jehovah, rather than ourselves. This not only keeps us away from judging, as it is the bible they are judged by, and also allows us to see our fellow man as an equal. Strip away the barriers to our thinking and ministry.

              When people are resurrected, they are resurrected for who they are. They have paid for their sin through death. The bible is clear in that they are resurrected for judgement from then on, not from the past. They will be in the same position as Adam. Here is the evidence of my hand, I am your God, there is no other like me. What are you going to do about it? So it is then, that people will make their decision and either avail themselves of Jehovah’s mercy, or condemn themselves. It does not matter who they were before, but who they become at that time. There is, I venture to say, no need for you or any if us to exclude any religious group, because we do not know their hearts, only the label under which they labour. The word of Jehovah is free to all. And this label was applied, just as it is with the witnesses, by those whose wrongdoing decieves these people, just as it does with the witnesses. Put yourself in the position of the bystander looking in. Would you join a religion that protects opportunity to abuse children? Yet in both Catholicism and in the witnesses, people openly choose to support such a regime. We are no better than they, and so it is, that those who will be saved, will be saved by what is in their hearts now…..the essence of truth, the potential to grow in that if Satan is taken out of the equation. For what reason is Satan locked away for a thousand years? So that people can thrive to praise Jehovah for his creation, love and mercy, in understanding and in pure truth. Then, they can make a choice and prove themselves.

              That people who are right hearted live outside the witnesses and their understanding is without doubt true. If it were not, then from where do these people come who whole heartedly join the witnesses? Aparrantly from all nations and tribes, and did not these nations and tribes provide their own gods? Then clearly, these ones who come out, we’re not satisfied and sought to clarify within themselves, their intangible yearning for truth. But how, with such stigma as we have, moreso, that Jehovah has been given by the watchtower can people recognise Truth as being with the witnesses? Sally does, and others who attend, like you. People can and do, when given insight into the bible recognise truth when they hear it. And that is where, I would suggest, your ‘others’ are who try to hold to these basic truths. These people are in all nations…..labelled religions….tribal groups, perhaps like Russia or China, where only State Religions are approved….I don’t know. But what sets us apart from these other searchers? Nothing more than knowledge. We are still sinful and thus are judged more punitively for being so in our knowledge, but what of those that still have the same degree of love, but no knowledge? Therefore, perhaps we should not look for labels that divide, but instead think of hearts that are abandoned by their shepherds but would otherwise belong to Jehovah. It’s only my thought. Don’t take it too seriously. Why not ask Robert to do a podcast on it. It is a pertinent question to the times we live in.

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt, your ramblings ( as you call them ) make perfect sense to me. Would any of us here want to worship a God without mercy. We all know Jehovah is a god who has plenty of that.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Islam too spread better than Catholics. So do Islam have to do anything in prophecy? Bearing in the very name of Jehovah is special role of JW at the same time doing all nonsense is like Jews and Caiphas in Jesus time is fulfiilment of prophecy. You see all nonse inside JW ORG is the work of MOL, directed by Satan so that people should not know Jehovah so as all nonse should appear as first place there by all these nonsense masks Jehovah from people. If you think Catholic spread is in billions why not Islam? Just as JW Islam rejects trinity.

            • into the light

              Islam has no connection with Christ.
              It’s not about numbers, anyway. It’s about living according to principles given to us by Christ. Beverly used Eph 4:11, 12 to prove that not all Christians will preach as if that was the only thing JW use to prove they are the true faith. But the rest of that same chapter speaks about being united, harmonious and of one spirit which is hardly the case with the Christendom and most others who call themselves Christian.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Okay I understand. But bearing the name of Jehovah is more important than just being a Christian. Even Samaritans were worshiping Jehovah, yet Jews were recognized just give a thought why? So is JW ORG is like Judha though other Christains have bible and preach. Why in India there is a temple which has bible inside the temple next to a demon god and daily sacrifices were made to bible. Is that valid in the eyes of Jehovah? Bible being inside Hindu temple is no difference of a Roman Catholic having a bible. Roman catholic=Hinduism because in India processions take place for human elephant hybrid demon Ganesha god and for Mother Mary in the same month and same style. Now you tell can you compare JW with Catholics? Isaac will not accept though many nonsense exists among JW.

            • into the light

              Actually being Christian is the most important thing. Being Christian means following the Christ. No one comes to father except thru the son. So what good is bearing the name if you disregard the son? I’m not saying JW don’t follow Christ, but there has been a trend in the org where the son is increasingly being marginalized. It’s not so black and white, Isaac. But I do get your drift.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Well I don’t say like WTS trend where the son is increasingly being marginalized. I meant bearing the name of Jehovah is important along with the belief in the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

              See the verse: No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, occurs in John:6:44.

              But the verse: No one comes to the Father except through me. John:14:16

              Why this arrangement? Jehovah first and then Jesus?

              So coming towards Jesus is by Jehovah!
              And acceptance by Jehovah is through only Jesus.
              Well I Isaac will never conflict with this principle.

              So what I said that you cannot compare JW with Catholics is correct. You should come to India in the month of September and see the Ganesha-Mary’s Festival. My God what a Babylon the great!!!??? The best place to see this is White Field Gandhipuram Bangalore not in Coimbatore.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Actually, ITL, Islam, has great reverence for Christ. They know of him and acknowledge him as a prophet just not as God’s Son, in fact when you talk with a Muslim person about Islam, it’s amazing all the major Bible characters are mentioned and there are a lot of similarities to Christianity and it makes a person wonder if you’re open minded and not afraid to think for yourself without restraints or within the confinements of your own faith, maybe, was it Gabriel telling their prophet to recite, recite or was it another ‘messenger’ and then of course a person might think, could Islam be an apostate branch of Christianity?! Just a radical thought I was pondering.

              Sorry, if there’s a misunderstanding but I mentioned Eph4:11,12 to make the point that the WT expects every one of their members to go door to door, not everyone will have that gift.

            • Mohammed was familiar with Coptic Christianity and Judaism. He was put off by the trinity but sought to fuse the two into a new religion with the recommended modifications by the “angel” that appeared to him. By all accounts he was wildly successful. The thing is, the demons have no problem with promoting Jesus, just as long as the truth about his relationship with Jehovah is not publicized.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow. Didn’t know that about their prophet and his knowledge of Coptic Christianity and Judaism. Got to ask my Muslim best friend about this and that’s good their prophet wasn’t buying into the trinity. At least he knocked that one on the head!

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              That’s exactly right.

            • you mean not publicized correctly and truthfully anymore – Luke 4:34;41 Matt 8:29 shot themselvs in the foot on that one

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Beverly kenyon SAID into the light • an hour ago
              “Actually, ITL, Islam, has great reverence for Christ.
              They know of him and acknowledge him as a prophet just not as God’s Son,

              That would make Islam Antichrist according to the Bible.

              John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son,John 2:22

            • Beverly kenyon

              Yes Bklyn Kevin, I did say that to ITL, you’ve got me there! Well, that’s for them to sort out when the Christ comes back and he sits upon his glorious throne and ALL the Nations are gathered in his presence. Matt25:31-33.

              Once again, thank you for your time and marvellous scriptures.

              Regards.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              You are right same thought of mine.

            • into the light

              I am familiar with what muslims believe, and it doesn’t have to do anything with Christ. They acknowledge him as a prophet and that’s as far as it goes. They revere Mohammad and he is bigger than Christ in their eyes. Besides, I’m not sure what the point of this is… Their whole belief system is in essence the worship of moon god, same as Christendom is worship of sun god. They both have markings of Babylon’s belief system.

            • Russell was thought to be the Laodicean messenger because the Bible Students had this crazy idea that the seven angels to the seven congregations had sent their messages consecutively, over the centuries, and that the Laodicean congregation, being the last of the seven, was visited lastly by the messenger – CT Russell.

            • into the light

              So it has to do with the idea of 7 church ages? How is that an insult to Russel, as Beverly mentioned? And also since we’re on it, weren’t they believeing at the time that Russell, after his death, was speaking to them from beyond the veil if I remember correctly?
              Could you by any chance point to more material about those beliefs? If Russel was 7th, who were the first six and what was their message according to that idea?

            • As I recall from my readings years ago the Bible Students had a whole chronology laid out. I can’t recall exactly, but they felt like some prominent individuals like Peter Waldo and Wycliff were messengers. Maybe Jerome way back when. I don’t remember. But the WT junked that whole concept, like most other stuff they concocted back then regarding prophecy.

            • into the light

              I looked into the 7 ages of church and it’s basically what you said. Only different people have different ideas as to who those messengers are. I guess IBS picked it up from them and perceived Russel to be the messenger. That belief goes hand in hand with the interpretation of 7 times and the tree from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Is there anything you don’t know about the watchtower!? What colour socks did Russell wear?

            • Rumor has it he wore one black sock and one white sock, alternating between white on the right and black on the left every other day. It is also rumored by the Bethel laundryman that each sock was embroidered with the masonic compass and square No confirmation on that though. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/74f372241b04f4b8f39dadbb6250f49ff76fc5e0831dd3a80394266bb90510d6.jpg logo.

            • Daisy

              Hahahahaha hahahahaha. I’ve just had a coughing fit with explosive sneezes and tears running out of my eyes…that’s hilarious…thanks for that…:)Daisy

            • I guess Burt has been rubbing off on me. lol

            • Daisy

              So happy to hear that Burt has been rubbing off on you Robert as it could be worse…like bklyn k for e.g lol but don’t take me seriously as we’re commanded by Christ to love our -quoting -scripture -out -of -context enemies are we not…
              Ah…had a flashback to when once this place was a loving little family…those were the good ol’ days Robert. Much love from Daisy x

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              I am in holidays in Bangalore so I will look for a pair of socks in value mall Whitefield Bangalore. I think so I need to go to a store where Halloween things are sold. Well I will buy a pair if I want to lose holy spirit. HAH HAH HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

              I think so if king Tippusultan of Mysore,Coimbatore and Bangalore had a chance of this freemasonry knowledge he could have avoided the 4th Anglo Mysore war and lived till the end. Poor Tippu don’t know the concept of freemasonry and was killed by Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Glad to see you have been keeping up with British imperialism Isaac. I’m sure you know that the railway you are on was built by the British! What a jolly lot of imperialist robbers we were…..still are. If it was down to me, I would give you the Koh-I-Noor diamond back but I’m sorry to say that Liz has it glued in her crown.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Hey Hey You are right I know everybody tells about the British who build the railways here in India. Yes they did build. Oh my God even if India would have been free from British rule these guys (Indians) would have not built. Yeah British did it. Some areas they build they are unimaginable how they could have done without modern equipment? Especially the Bangalore Coimbatore railway line, because of Cotton mills in Coimbatore and cantonment and Aircraft Industries in Bangalore. Also Mysore should have been the Capital of Karnataka, because Mysore was already developed as far back as 1799 Bangalore was a dense forest. British did it because they don’t want Tippusultan’s place (Srirangapatana in Mysore) to be capital, So the British started to develop Bangalore which was actually held under the domain of Tippusultan. In 1831, the capital of the Kingdom of Mysore was moved from Mysore city to Bangalore. The Bangalore Cantonment was directly under the administration of the British East India Company, while Bangalore City itself was under the jurisdiction of the of the Kingdom of Wodeyar of Mysore, because of subsidiary alliance Wodeyar supported the British to overthrow Tippusultan because originally the Mughals sold Bangalore to the Kingdom of Mysore’s ruler Chikkadevaraja Wodeyar in 1689 for three lakhs rupees after capturing from Kempe Gowda who was made ruler under the Vijayanagar empire in 1565 but After the death of Krishnaraja Wodeyar II in 1759, Bangalore came under Tippus domain. Bangalore was developed by British from 1806 under Mark Cubbon, and Lord Curzon in 1900. Now it is a highly populated and polluted city. Jehovah’s witnesses thrive in this city being around 4000 and preaching work was there as far back a 1952.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s about the best potted history I have heard of India. I shall have to call you Professor Isaac!

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Really brother I learned the History of India seriously in order to integrate the works of King of North in Indian soil in relation to Bile’s prophecy. Do you know? How much I used to read Robert’s website, so much I also did my own research on Indian history also in connection to Bible’s prophecy in that way I did started researching through Wikipedia and reputed India history books from 2012-2016 after coming across Robert’s website in 2010. No Jehovah;’s witnesses knows as much history of India as I know in relation to the King of North and connected to Bible’s prophecies and its demi gods, temples and many of the traditions and how Ramayana was a story that was copied from different bibles characters and integrated as one story called Ramayana. JWS in India fear to read Ramayana as they get dis fellowshipped. I did it and it did not caused my faith in Jehovah to loose. That is why in my KH no one talks nowadays if I answer as I always bring the history of India as an example and integrate to Bibles prophecies. They say brother how do you do that? Thanks for this e-watchman website it made me to think a lot.
              I am already a 3 years Diploma in ECE branch and based on diploma merit I did another +3 years Bachelors degree BE in Electronic and communication engineering branch. Now for the sake of Bible I am going to do Masters degree in History and if possible PhD then it will be as you said: I shall have to call you Professor Isaac! Yes I am on that way truly truly.
              At that time (after my PhD) I will tell the WTS. Hey WTS I am not like Gary Norman Arthur Botting who was a JW who lost faith in Jehovah by doing higher education (sorry he lost faith in Jehovah because of 1975 WTS failed prophecy incident) and because of that you put ban on all JWs from doing higher education. But now you see now I did my higher education and for now I am convinced that neither higher education nor theory of evolution, neither master degree nor PhD (philosophies of men) will be able to separate me from Jehovah’s love that is in Christ Jesus my Lord. (My own verse based on Romans: 8:38-39).

            • Burt Reynolds

              Your energy for learning and life leaves me breathless!

            • Jamie Mac

              Robert, you forgot about these, currently on sale at the Watchtower shop.

              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4bd7a6739390e7ab7318a9dbe2bad8859ecf293fd5be3c292c8346cccbc36657.jpg

            • Beverly kenyon

              That is so funny. Lol. Cant believe socks like those are made to be sold. That is twisted! But funny.

            • I bet Stephen Lett has a pair. lol

            • Beverly kenyon

              That is funny. 😂😂😂 yeah, rubber face definitely has a pair. I’m gonna be looking at men’s socks from now.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              You mean really or joking?

            • Ed

              He’s joking judgment hasn’t been given to him and he knows it.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Though Charles Taze Russell himself was not a freemason as per the records of Pittsburgh lodge of freemason and research work done by the former Bethelite Sister serving in the writing department of Watch tower bible and tract society Barbara Anderson. But he was thorough in freemasonry, that is why you can see the use the Cross inside the Crown a prominent freemasonry symbol used in the Zion’s Watchtower magazine of 1890’s and the unfinished pyramid and capstone in his book the Devine plan of the ages,. And many of the artistic work appeared in the watchtower magazines was the work of freemasonry. These freemasonry images are indeed a foreign religion’s (Jezebel influence) intimate presence in the Christian magazines that are dedicated to Jehovah and Jesus.
              If anyone is dare enough to ask such things with the organization they are just made their mouth shut are even marked and extreme case dis fellowshipped. So, such ones, instead of removing the influence of freemasonry, men in highest level in the Christian congregation pass an order through the congregation elders to punish the poor and righteous who questioned the organization. Hence they like Jezebel who killed Jehovah’s prophets as in 1st Kings: 18:13. But some even among the governing body and its other associated prominent members or committee although knowing this is pure injustice but keeps silence over the influence of freemasonry (= foreign religious influence) are like Ahab and thus freemasonry itself is like that woman Jezebel. Of course it should be noted that not all the images sublime images can be of freemasonic origin. Some of the images and symbols that were used in Jehovah’s temple are now adopted by freemasons and begin used. Thus if such images appear in the magazines it cannot be accepted as freemasonic images. But certain images such as the crown inside the cross is freemasonic, the unfinished pyramid, the eye between the divider is freemasonic, the eye in the triangle of pyramid which is actually the eye of Horus is freemasonic, the goat shaped is freemasonic, but the two Boaz and Jachin pillars, the winged sun cannot be considered as freemasonic.

            • Burt Reynolds

              If I still had it, I would show you my father’s Masonic Apron. That would give you a laugh. Not the sort of thing for cooking in the kitchen though!

            • Beverly kenyon

              😂😂😂 That apron would’ve matched brilliantly with those socks. Bloomin heck, they even had Masonic merchandise back then. It’s every where!

            • Burt Reynolds

              You really did know about his socks! Unbelievable.

            • Burt Reynolds

              You and I should have lunch together sometime!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. Thank you for invite, but there would be hardly any eating as I would be crying laughing at your sharp wit as you are so very funny! 😂😂😂😂

        • being stupid about prophecy isnt apostasy or against God. not all of Jehovah’s witnesses either knowing better or delusional have left Jehovah but many have and will

      • Burt Reynolds

        I find it difficult to understand the degree of denial, and the reasoning behind it, that will drive the watchtower to deny the presence of Christ when the time comes. They must be able to see it. If we the plebeian great crowd can see it, surely they can, and yet, the desire for money and praise overcomes their hold on life? What manner of posession must this be so that a man would give up his life for metals and the glory of man? I can only think that they are already ‘dead’ in themselves. I would say in denial, but one has to have a sense of balance to deny the heart. This seems no longer there.
        ‘Having the wrong interpretation of prophesy does not make one apostate.’ That statement is the very key to awakening the sleeping. It’s inspired. You should perhaps use that in an opening address to the congregations.

        • Ken Rosenberg

          “I find it difficult to understand the degree of denial, and the reasoning behind it, that will drive the watchtower to deny the presence of Christ when the time comes”

          That is probably the reason the MoL is called a Son of Destruction, because like Judas, who knew who Christ was, still betrayed him, and as you put it, it is difficult to understand the degree of denial, and the reasoning behind it, behind the betrayal of Christ.

        • Luis

          Remember Judas… He knew that Jesus was the Christ but he became evil and during the hour of darkness… Satan took control of him maybe satan will blind the watchtower just like he did with Judas.

          • Isaac of Coimbatore

            Makes sense. I just talked with my wife about this thought.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Yes you’re right Luis. I didn’t think of that example!

    • e.v.g

      The international bible students did not receive any message from God like dreams or visions, neither brother Robert. God appeals to our capacity of reasoning, but it seems the holy spirit had something to do, probably as what it is, a spirit, moving these men to read and understand the bible, and yes the preaching work is remarkable? JW’s labour has to do with knowing God and his will, although Jehovah has reserved the main part for the last days.

    • the Greek word (a·po·sta·siʹa) comes from the verb a·phiʹste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.” (Ac 21:21, ftn) In classical Greek the noun was used to refer to political defection, and the verb is evidently employed in this sense at Acts 5:37, concerning Judas the Galilean who “drew off” (a·peʹste·se, form of a·phiʹste·mi) followers. The Greek Septuagint uses the term at Genesis 14:4 with reference to such a rebellion. However, in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. The religious leaders of Jerusalem charged Paul with such an apostasy against the Mosaic Law.

      Isaiah – 10:6

  • Island Breeze

    Thanks Robert, great podcast!
    Do I hear a smoke detector chirping in the background? Do I need to make a service call?
    Watch this 1 minute smoke detector video please.
    https://youtu.be/jRsZIUBqCgY

    • I can’t believe that sound came through. My hearing is so bad, on the high end anyway, I didn’t think it came through. But the deal is, there are a few dimmer switches on the lights throughout the house. They mess up the cycling and produce a very annoying, non audible hum that the microphone pics up in the coil. In order to avoid that I have to shut down two of the circuits, one of which has the security system on it. I went into the settings on the security system and lowered the volume of the various alerts. I couldn’t hear it. Course, I am half deaf.

      • Island Breeze

        No worries, I used headphones that is why I heard something faintly. So don’t worry so much about it, the quality is still superb!

        • Eyes on the Prize

          I think I’ve seen it all now… Over the past 3 years, I’ve heard any number of conversations on Bible Prophecy, end times…you name it. And now Hearing Aides….. All bases have definitely been covered, lol…. As always, a Joy…Thanks

          • Jamie Mac

            Don’t count on it, there are plenty more topics to cover yet 🙂

            • Eyes on the Prize

              You are spot on Jami & I really look forward to learning & i]`putting the new knowledge to use in my life….I pray for understanding as I recognize it in myself… I’m not usually short on words in fact, If I had not learned to self prune, I’d be branching out all over the place

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Hello keep your eyes on the prize.
              just to let you know if you have a problem with understanding a particular subject all you have to do is ask me or anybody else on the site as we would be happy to assist you in your search for truth.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              That shows that you love Jehovah and Jesus Good nice reply. i like the people those who love Jehovah not WTS.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              I appreciate you and continue to be in this site you will learn a lot!!

      • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

        You may want to go outside and check your ground bar and add a second one off the origional Ground Bar about 8″ apart and check your ground lug in your breaker box make sure everything is snug just to be sure.., a good ground can eliminate a lot of static interference in your electrical wiring…

        • I think the ground bar is underneath the deck. And I ain’t crawling under there. Probably easier to just keep flipping the two breakers. But thanks for the info.

          • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

            Bummer..

            • Burt Reynolds

              Someone’s going to blow himself to kingdom come sooner than expected. Tell Robert to wear Wellington boots.

        • Burt Reynolds

          This site does not lack for electricians, that’s for sure….Virginia, Florida and where ever you are Rev!

      • Anderiega

        Sound was great to me! You’re a perfectionist 😊

      • The Ancient Witness

        You can install audio/inline electronic filters to eliminate this interference….. 🙂

        I really did not notice anything….

      • Jamie Mac

        Hi Robert, I have the same issues with my hearing. I can just about hear the indicators in my car and as for microwaves and things, well I know they make some sort of high pitched noise, but I cannot hear anything. Got a hearing aid which helps, but I don’t like to wear them as I feel old and decrepit 🙁

        • I bought a hearing aid too, which worked great for about a year. Then about a month after the warranty expired they stopped working, first one then the other a week later.

          • Bklyn Kevin

            I always thought you were a little hard of hearing. LOL,
            but on a serious note I thought the sounded was fine.
            PS thank you for that podcast it was excellent as usual.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Jamie, Don’t buy a hearing aid. Go to your GP and get referred to NHS audiology. They can supply hearing aids of ANY sort required, contrary to the belief that they only supply NHS standard. I had a fantastic pair from them that worked with radio or streaming waves as well as just amplification and on over 25 channels too, as well as filters… and they kept me supplied and in work for over twenty years. I’ve no hearing now in my right ear, but a little in my left remains, but it’s subtitles or reading for me. (I can ignore the children’s requests for money with impunity!!! Every cloud…….)

            • Jamie Mac

              Burt, I was referred to audiology at Northampton GH. That’s where I got my hearing aids from. They configured them according to my needs. I can hear indicators and microwave ovens with them on but voices sound tinny, Because I work in IT most of my colleagues are in their twenties and here I am pushing 61 and having to rely on hearing aids. It’s a battle to keep up with them at the best of times but my hearing issue brings more pressure.

              I shall go back to get them re-configured until I find a happy medium.

              In the mean time when I am replying to one of your comments I will remember to type a little louder.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, I got you mixed up with Robert. I don’t suppose our brothers out there get help with hearing aids. We shall both have to type a lot louder to each other. HOW DOES THIS SOUND?

  • Kyle

    Thankyou brother for the podcast I had some things on my mind answered through your podcast thankyou Robert thankyou jehovah

  • Nigel

    Hello everyone. I have added a post to the thread “Why Jehovah’s Witnesses” that may be of interest to some here.

    The thread can be found via this link: https://e-watchman.com/topic/why-jehovahs-witnesses/

    Warm regards to you all…

    • into the light

      Wow! This topic is something I’ve been mulling over the past few days and have read all of John’s accounts except Revelation. This makes perfect sense to me. The focus in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John is on having love among ourselves, which will surely be very hard once the humanity gets corrupted to the extent that Paul described in 2 Timothy ch. 3

      […] there would be multiple “false Christs and false prophets”. This is in keeping with the fact that there are multiple Christian denominations.

      Ultimately, it seems that we may expect every professing Christian, regardless of denomination, to be tested by a false parousia foisted upon them by (some of) the trusted, respected and seemingly holy leadership of their own organisations/congregations (2 Thess 2:2) – and that this will occur during the Great Tribulation, at a crucial time when they will be desperately seeking a “saviour” from their distress.

      I have been thinking about the multiple Christian denominations part, and discussed it with Beverly earlier. Thanks brother!

      (Ironically, this places readers of e-watchman in a peculiar situation: many here believe that the “false parousia” is an historic (past) event that is “localised” to JWs, which means they may in fact be caught unaware/unprepared when the “great false parousia” occurs.)

      I like to think that readers here are open to new understanding (new light? lol). Otherwise, we’d be the same as WT followers whom we like to bash for their dogmatism.

      • Ed

        what your saying makes a lot of sense to me, but the question I have is does the MOL occur to only the JW’s, making himself to be “a God” only to this sect, or to the whole world in general?. From what I understand at this point only seems that it is directed at the JW’s since the other Christian denominations are so far to the left as I see it presently. What say you? Sorry if this is rehashing former dialogue I probably wasn’t around at the time.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I have often pondered on this point. I came to the conclusion that, as in the past cases of the temple being destroyed, and the focal point being on that, regardless of the other surrounding religions, that the same will be true today. Though there are other religions that may use the name of God, and preach, and have a form of godly devotion, they all of them, the witness organisation included, will be destroyed. Yet if you look at them as a homogenous mass, where is the condemnation? What difference for instance, is there, if say the Church of England welcomes homosexuals into its congregation and to even act as priests. Well, nothing at all as far as I can see, because the church itself is entirely irrelevant as far as the bible is concerned. They tepeat the Lords Prayer ad nauseam, but you ask a c of e to tell you what the name is, that should be hallowed? The same goes for the rest.

          So if Jehovah is to make his name known, and the consequences of such, then one would assume there to be a number one target from all of them and that fulfills the prophesy of all of Christendom, yet holds the Name. It is not that the witnesses are any better or worse than Christendom in every respect, but that it is the explanatory example, in just the same way, that Courts of Law make example of individual criminals for whatever reason. And the reason here being, that the watchtower have made the name known world wide. They have fulfilled prophesy. Thus the focus is on them from the points of view of the Name, the truth, the conduct, the faith, the faithlessness and the reward. Everyone knows what the witnesses are about, from Russia to the Eskimos and everything in between.

          • Ed

            That’s a logical way of looking at it, and I suppose this MOL who “magnifies himself over everyone” would be those exclusively of the JW camp since the other religions have their own gurus such as the Pope etc….

            • Burt Reynolds

              I am really not sure on the exclusivity of the witnesses insofar as the man of lawlessness is concerned. I can see Roberts point and believe it to be both true and correct, but if there is one thing on earth that has taught me a lesson about the bible, it is always that things are bigger and more inclusive than they seem. It is clear for one thing, that the principles of the nations will be told by Jehovah through his servants, the judgement against them, and the scriptures say that there will be no defence for them, no answer to what is told them. But these are just the figureheads, what of the vast criminal empires that drive them and that put these leaders in place? These are the true leaders. I often wonder if there is not some ‘leakage’ between the scriptural man of lawlessness that decieves the sheep and abuses them, and the secular avenues that may well be included in their motivation. This is true of all religions though. The tentacles of sin are far reaching and draw people in from both sides, the evil and the honest hearted. That is deception is it not? Anyway, that is only conjecture so I don’t really waste much time thinking about it. It is reasonable to assume that the man of lawlessness reaches both well into the congregation and well outside it, like a disease……like the masons and other secret societies.

              The other reason why I dwell on this subject occasionally, is that when one considers the apptitude and abilities of the governing body as presented by them over the Internet JW site, one can only marvel how they can manage even to tie their shoe laces unaided or string a coherent sentance by themselves. Without wishing to be gratuitous in my slander, Lett is a prime example of an infantile grip on language, reasoning and pomposity. Maybe they have magic underwear like the Mormons. But who makes it for them and embues it with power?

            • Ed

              Well if we look at it like this lawless man isn’t just singular and exists in other religions then hopefully they all have some clown like Lett that gets the sheep thinking twice about what they’re being taught. Goofy, creepy antics like his should get at least some of the people thinking for themselves.

            • Ed

              So you’ve been keeping tabs on Lett……good job!
              He can’t pull a fast one on you in his leisure time.

            • Isaiah 26:13

        • again,

          he sits in the temple of Jehovah.
          he causus a delusion by his operation from Satan to influence Jehovah’s witnesses that the last days have begun and that Jesus has already returned.

          all “other denominations”? no!

          this got old forever ago

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      See my article on 2 copper mountains in baruq.uk

      • Nigel

        Thank you brother Isaac. I’ve subscribed to your page; looking forward to reading your articles!

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    I kindly request if possible everyone. Please see baruq.uk Regarding two copper mountains authored by me.

    • Anderiega

      Thank you brother. I read your article. Very interesting. There’s so much to research in God’s word!! Did you know copper is mentioned 365 in nwt Bible?!

      Regarding the copper feet visions pointing to Jesus…. Revelation 1:12-17 and Revelation 2:18 obviously describe our Lord Jesus.

      But I’m a little confused about Daniel 10 because later in that chapter it says that Micheal (Jesus?) helped this copper footed spirit being fight the Prince of Persia (demon). Any thoughts?
      Also Ezekiel 40:3 seems to describe Jesus in the same way….but I’m not sure if it’s not just describing a mighty Angel.

      Anyway…. as always, I enjoyed benefitting from your research.

      I smiled at the beginning of Robert’s podcast when he gave a “shout out” to our dear brothers and sisters in India (you!), Australia 😘😉, England 😆 and USA. I don’t personally know hardly any of you, but in my imagination and my heart I hold you all very dear…..my nerdy, searching, sometimes combative yet usually loving and witty e-watchman discus family whom I long to greet face to face ☺

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        First of all thanks for your reply
        You said: Did you know copper is mentioned 365 in nwt Bible?!
        Yes i knew it but in respect to the verses what WTS has quoted I mentioned
        Thank you for bringing those details.

        I went through once again copper what you mentioned in Dan and Eze. There is no conflict in what I have interpreted and I am pretty sure that I am correct.

        See Jesus and 144000 are not the only ones who do the cleaning work are not angles are also involved? Well then you mentioned Dan:10. that of course is angle, but again see the difference Dan:10:6 is burnished (=polished) copper Rev:1:15 Jesus feet is fine copper when glowing in a furnace. There is a different between a polished copper and that of a glowing copper in a furnace. During his standing (parousia) the congregation will feel his heat of Judgement (=glowing copper in a furnace) causes cleaning process.

        The copper mentioned in Ez:40:3 is just a copper continue the verse you mentioned it says He had a flax cord and a measuring reed in his hand. Why? Because what he measures the quality of Christian congregation and if found bad they have to be thrown out hence cleaning so copper here means this angel has the authority from Jesus to measure the congregation’s cleanliness and clean it hence copper. that means means along with Jesus and 144000 some angles are also involved (may be Gabriel) in cleaning process thus copper is also symbolic shared with angles as that of Jesus as you indicated in Dan:10:6 and Ez:40:3.
        .
        Regards through travelling from
        Coimbatore/Bangalore / Mysore
        Total=549KMs
        Now I am in KSR Dam Mysore

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    I am travelling 400kms by electric train. Christmas holidays for me and my children. To Bangalore and Mysore. Tippusultan ruled part of Mysore. Arthur Wellesley under the direction of Lord Cornwallis invaded Mysore. But another king of Mysore Wodeyar dynasty supported British. With that help British killed Tippusultan in the 4th Anglo-Mysore war and brought end to Islamic rule. That caused Mysore, Coimbatore and Bangalore under British East India company.

  • tortas

    staying or leaving the organization is a conundrum of sorts; i kind of compare it to a cheating spouse, does one continue to accept the cheating, abuse or what have you

  • Ms M

    Thank you brother King, wonderful podcast, I’m so happy to hear you’re back on, thanks for the shout out to those of us in Australia, I love and appreciate all of your hard work and efforts, may Jehovah continue to be with you and bless you,
    Warm regards from Melbourne, Australia 😊

    • Burt Reynolds

      It’s nice to know you guys are out there chasing Roos .

      • Ms M

        Awwww hahaha!!!

    • #savekevin

      Hi ms m, from near Melbourne too

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    Thanks brother you shouted out and from India. Oh it’s only me. No one in India listened except Joseph from Kerala. thanks a lot.

    Warm regards from India
    Coimbatore
    Bangalore
    Mysore and
    From North Karnataka Hubli
    Its all my place

  • The Ancient Witness

    Ok Robert, I will send you some thought provoking, wide range appealing questions….. be ready!! LOL

  • kakure Basho

    🙂

  • Bonnie Russell

    Have not been active since the 70s, and yet I still believe. Lately I have begun to wonder with all the terrorism going on around the world what the JWs are saying about things these days. I certainly don’t remember things being this crazy back in the old days. The last days seem more pronounced now than I ever imagined in the 70s.

    • It may come as a bit of a shock to you, certainly it is for JW’s who may entertain the notion, but the last days have not even begun yet. Life is still pretty normal now. People go about their daily lives without much hinderance. The last days brings normality to an end. Thankfully the last days, or the time of the end, as it is alternatively called, do not stretch over decades. It is a relatively short period of time marked by intense wars, famines, pestilence and great earthquakes that will bring the system crashing down. Here is an article on the topic https://e-watchman.com/time-end/

      • Bonnie Russell

        Thank you, Robert! And I do find that shocking. I always figured at least most of those things were happening around us, but you are right that it seems odd the last days would go on for so long. I suppose it’s not all that surprising, though. In the bible it says when Satan was booted out of heaven that he has only a short time. I just assumed “short time” must be subjective since I’ve been hearing that all my life. But now that you mention it, I have always suspected all was not right within the watchtower organization. Of course, that isn’t surprising either, considering how often God’s people mess things up.

      • Dauphine80

        I do have a question. If normality will be brought to an end, how can it be said that it wil be like the days of Noah where everyone continued on as if everything was normal?

        • Everyone continued on until the day that Noah entered the ark, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Everything is business as usual until the presence. That’s the point. The WT’s 1914 hoax aside, the presence of the Son of man has not begun yet.

          • Dauphine80

            So the “last days brings normality to an end” and “the presence of the son of man?” So once the Messiah returns then tribulations starts?

            • Jesus said that ‘nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom.’ That will be the end of normality and the beginning of the time conclusion of the system. The WT makes a big deal out of WWI. And of course, it was, especially if you lived in Europe. But I dare say the next world war will far surpass the first two in scope. Furthermore, it will bring an end to the preaching and disciple making work. So those who have not positively responded during the day of good will will not be able to during the day of his anger. The door will be closed, like the day that Noah entered the ark and the door was shut by the hand of God.

          • Dauphine80

            I think I understand what you mean.

      • or the “great tribulation” as Jesus coined it. one of the few ways to reason with Jehovah’s witneses; is the tribulation here yet? no, okey then, the times and seasons of the end that is Jehovah’s day has not begun, therefore the great crowd who are that generation which come out of the tribulation after its cut short do not pass away just as Jesus said. but even though its clearly the truth right out of scripture, they wont believe it because your forhead doesnt have Watchtower ORG stamped on it when showing them

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      I welcome you with love and affection. Do you still believe in Jehovah and Jesus? How did you arrived here? This is the right place to build your faith. Robert helped me to build faith in Jehovah and Jesus when in 2010 I lost faith in Jehovah and Jesus and want to become atheist. May Jehovah bless you through Jesus.

      • Bonnie Russell

        Oh dear. That sounds like a struggle. I do still believe. Always have. Your story sounds exactly like my son. He is the one who told me about Robert. He went through an atheist phase as well. He still likes a few atheists on Youtube like Atheism-is-Unstoppable.

        I’ve watched a few of his videos too and actually find that guy’s humor hilarious. I love his stuff ripping apart TYT, his criticism of Islam and his commentary on race, religion, and politics are often spot on. Kind of a jerk, though.

        So strange that so many atheists find their way to this website. It may not be the last days yet, but something is certainly going on. If I didn’t know any better I might say God was using the atheists to expose certain things he doesn’t like about religion. Wouldn’t that be funny?

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          I encourage once again to continually stay in this website and especially please go through prophecies such as Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and the book Jehovah Himself has become King. Your faith will be strengthen. That is how it strengthened my faith. Back in 2010 I was going to meetings for the sake of my wife. But now I go to awake through every comments of mine in the meetings. I am active once again from 2012. It was Robert who taught me how to interpret the prophecies. He is the once who said that Bible itself should interpret Bible, not our own insertions to fit into Bible’s prophecies just like 1914 insertions into Bible’s prophecies by WTS. You just go through Robert’s article on who is the woman in the prophecy? https://e-watchman.com/woman-prophecy/
          You see how Robert interpreted, until then I was thinking woman means heavenly organization. That’s the difference you will find and many more.

          • Bonnie Russell

            Thanks, Isaac. Your suggestions and testimony is very helpful. I am very happy you found your faith again. Strangely enough, my son said very much the same thing. Since I am unable to attend meetings anymore because of my health, he suggested I check out the watchman’s website. I am not sure how my son got his faith back. Neither does he.

            He was pretty hardcore too. We used to get into serious arguments all the time. But something happened. I believe he begun to see a lot of the same hypocrisy in the atheist circles he was hanging around in, especially when he got involved with politics. He said he thought the JWs were bad at one time, but then he started seeing how bad people were on the left and the right. You almost can’t escape it. Like trans fat. It’s everywhere.

            After a while he was forced to admit how cult like everything was, which was why he was disillusioned with religion. That same feeling he had that there was nowhere left to go in religion was exactly the same in politics. This got him thinking that maybe the JWs had a point. He still says the watchtower sucks. They just suck less than everywhere else. That’s as close to a complement as you’ll get from him for the org. Don’t know what’s next for him, and I don’t think he does either. Perhaps we are all struggling in our own way.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              The WTS is ruled by the Man of Lawlessness directed by Satan and Jehovah allows that so that he put us to test whether we believe what is truth or what is false. Read 2nd Thes:2:4,9,11-12. So what your son said is correct watchtower sucks they just suck less than everywhere else. But you see the WTS ORG itself will be destroyed by Jesus. So I encourage you to put trust in Jehovah through Jesus not ORG. WTSORG will not give salvation. Atheism, and Darwinism were developed by illuminaties to destroy Christianity so is also political system is funded by illuminaties so no one can escape if you run anywhere whether, atheism, politics or WTS. Even inside the WTS we have Freemasons and freemasonry is secretly practiced in the form of publishing sublime images. For more details I have interpreted on Naboth, Jezebel and Ahab and I will give you a glimpse of that article if you contact me at easajw@gmail.com and you will know how all this works you can even tell your son by sharing my mail address if possible I will help him to put faith in Jehovah and Jesus. I don’t want anyone to be lost. My full article will be published in baruq.uk but that is after a month.

              PLEASE TELL YOUR SON THAT JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES THEMSELVES ARE NOT BAD BUT THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS JUST AS 11 APOSTLES OF JESUS WERE NOT BAD BUT THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS OR THE SON OF DESTRUCTION JUDAS ISCARIOT WAS BAD ALTHOUGH SELECTED BY JESUS HIMSELF.

              TRUST IN JEHOVAH AND JESUS THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GIVE US SALVATION NOT WTS.

            • Bonnie Russell

              My son is currently taking a hiatus from the Internet for a while, but I’ll be sure to let him know. He will be back eventually. He is just burned out at the moment. Personally, I think the break has been good for him. Sometimes it’s helpful to step back from everything. We trust that God will set things straight one day. Hopefully sooner than later. Nice website by the way.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          Hello and welcome Bonnie nice to have you with us.
          when I read your comments I thought you might enjoy this particular podcast.

          Questions covering a wide variety of topics.
          Podcast #53 https://e-watchman.com/podcast-53/

          • Bonnie Russell

            Okay. That sounds great! I’ll check that out tonight when everybody goes to bed. I’m sure my son may have listened to it. I’ll ask him. We’re up in New York for the holidays, but I’ll bookmark it for sure.

        • Island Breeze

          Could you be Richard Long mom? How’s he doing?

          • Bonnie Russell

            Richard is doing well as far as I know. He is a friend of mine, but I have not seen him in a while. Not his mom, though. LOL. Tim and Josh are my sons. How do you know Richard?

          • Richard Long

            JS, I am not acquainted with this person. rlong9000@gmail.com

          • Bonnie Russell

            Doesn’t look like the same Richard I know has a brother named Ralph.

  • Bonnie Russell

    This might be better as an email question for your podcast, but I’m not too good with email yet. I have a question about evolution. You’ve said and most would agree that it isn’t true, but my son tends to suspect that it may not be a simple yes or no answer. Say with things like bacteria. If you are on antibiotics and stop too soon, you might kill off most of it but then there might be a few strains that by chance had a resistance to the antibiotic and then those proliferate overpowering the strains that did not have the resistance leading to a large population of bacteria that cannot be treated by antibiotics.

    This sort of mechanism certainly seems to exist, so I can see why my son can say at least some form of evolution is true. But the problem is how far does this mechanism scale? Even if God used full fledged evolution to get life going, what about the resurrection? Seems like God could have used evolution, perhaps picking out a species of ape and modifying their genome or something to create the first 2 humans over a certain period of time.

    That’s what my son thinks could have happened, which could explain a lot. But even if that is true, God would almost certainly have to create instantaneously when it comes to the resurrection. A lot of bodies don’t even exist anymore, cremation, etc, so it’s still going to come back to creationist type of event even if some form of evolution was used in the creation of life on earth. My son says it may be a matter of micro or macro evolution, but I don’t know what that means. Could it be another one of those times where everyone has it wrong to some degree?

    • Bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics is pretty much the same as when we develop immunity to certain viruses. That is the whole principle behind vaccinations. Maybe you have heard the expression: “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”

      Scientists say that the human immune system is so complex it is like a brain all to itself. And it all begins with an individual cell having remarkable powers of reacting to the environment it is exposed to and “remembering” various attacks upon it and communicating with other cells. You can call it evolution. Adaption might be a better word. But obviously when bacteria develop an immunity to certain drugs they are still bacteria. They haven’t magically changed into something else. And when we develop an immunity to say, the measles, we do not change into some other kind of creature.

      • Bonnie Russell

        Thanks, Robert. I for 1 will one happy whenever God comes back and sets things straight once and for all. This whole evolution stuff is for the birds.

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        Nice

    • Burt Reynolds

      I have sympathy with that question Bonnie, because it’s just the same, almost to the letter, that which my daughter assumes. As Robert has noted, bacteria does not evolve to a new species, it changes or adapts within itself to respond to its needs. As in all life forms, they do not need to evolve, because they are perfectly suited to their environment for the very reason that they can adapt. Why change a monkey into a man? Some people feel they evolved from apes, and rightly so, judging by their intelligence, but this argument does not hold water.

      If every species developed into a new kind at every environmental provocation, then breeding would quickly become impossible and the species would die out. Thus adaptation, response to need within the Kind, is built in. That in itself is perfection, though few care to realise that facet in nature, but are quite happy to adapt a motorcar into a tank or an arms carrier when the feel the need to war.

      Man can feed himself from a variety of foods, from spiders to raspberries, but a few can, when blind, also tune their hearing to the point whereby they can guage their distance from an object by sound echo through clicking their tongue and listening to the echo. That is not evolution, but realising the potential of the brain and as far as food is concerned, the digestive system. Some can feel colours, others survive freezing cold. Is the freezing of embryos, evolution or adaptation, or realising a potential of the human body?

      The fact is that all life is perfect for its function and has potential far beyond what we understand at present. It is a good exercise, when in doubt over the evolution/creation debacle to consider the more ethereal questions: How can flesh think? How can flesh describe a concept of future, past and present; feel love and respond to emotion? How did male and female guess what bits they needed to reproduce and gain the cooperation of the other in planning this before dividing their cells amoeba style?

      Coming back to bacteria…..how did the bacterial flagellum motor ‘evolve’ when it could not exist without all its parts being there at the same time? One part not being able to exist without having the other parts already in place. It is a true wonder of engineering and your son would do well to read about it and ponder the conumdrum. Always though, in every aspect of the bible, there is the bridge of faith to cross. That is not escapable.

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        Good comment

      • Bonnie Russell

        Thanks! I’m so glad I didn’t offend anyone. I think watchman may have removed my last video because if was inappropriate. But the one I meant to post was called “Message For Creationists” by JaguarJ0nes. It sounds like an anti creationist video but isn’t. Didn’t want to post it again because Robert is nice enough to allow me to post here and didn’t want to annoy him with multiple submissions. Sorry, Robert. You can look it up on youtube if you want, Burt. I promise it’s not what you’d think by the title.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I do not think anyone would be offended by your asking a question on the evolution creation debate. Essentially though, although a grounding in knowledge of the genetic necessities of ‘kinds’ is useful in stimulating interest, it is the pure wonderment of how nature works and an appreciation for the harmony within it that speaks for the creator. If your son cannot appreciate that, then nothing on this earth will convince him otherwise other than a willingness to consider the greater picture presented by the bible. That was and is why it was written.

          • Bonnie Russell

            I love my son to death, but he can be really stubborn sometimes. Although I guess it’s not fair to criticize him too much with him not being here to defend himself. He is much more open minded than atheists are. Plus we are all a bit stubborn sometimes, and he has changed a lot over the years, especially having left the atheism stuff behind. Still not sure how or when that happened. I think when this is all said and done, we will all be in for a few surprises. Nobody but God has all the answers, and that’s something even my son wouldn’t object to.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well there is always the fact that, as the bible says, we can witness to family and others through a silent day to day example. And anyway, from what you say, your son is always open to change of thought and that is the greater part of the battle is it not? Everyone will have the scales fall from their eyes when the time comes and have the chance to recognise the King. Being open hearted and happy to listen puts your son in a very good position.

            • Bonnie Russell

              I believe we are all looking forward to the day our eyes are opened and we see the kingdom for what it really is, without Satan’s blinders interrupting us. In this world we are surrounded by a bubble of fake BS that clouds our judgement. A yearning for the real answers is what keeps us going, even if they challenge us or make us uncomfortable. If we do love the truth, we will not be afraid.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              That’s nice encouragment

        • I didn’t remove anything. May have been the infamous Disqus glitch that shows up every now and then

          • Bonnie Russell

            Oh! Okay. I thought you created Disqus. I’m still learning how all this stuff works. Thanks for your work, Robert. I really like your apocalypse report videos! Hope there are more on the way. Please keep up the good work, brother King. I am thrilled that there are people like you outside the org who aren’t just anti JWs.

            It is very refreshing. Most of the people I’ve seen leave either jump to another religion or become an atheists or something else equally absurd. I’ve had a hard time too. I even had to go through therapy, but I never turned against the truth.

            • Disqus is a commenting platform that can be integrated onto blogs and websites. Once you join Disqus you can comment on hundreds of different sites that use Disqus and readers can see what you posted all across the web. By the way, the post you mentioned that was not appearing had been shelved for my moderation. I approved it.

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      Just think of apes. If man evolved from apes why today’s apes are not evolving into man? If man came by evolution so why man has not evolved into some other super man? Just ask how the feeling shame evolved in man and how language developed only in man where we don’t find any proto type language in animals. I have asked the same questions with many evolutionist they tried to answer but they themselves say it is hypothesis. The theory of evolution was funded by illuminaties to destroy Christianity. The one who funded for this theory themselves did not believe in their own theory but laughed as they are going to fool the whole world through acdemics by making all to accept that all man came from beast but illuminaties themselves say only they are from God. By this they convey all are beasts only they are humans who has right to rule. If we accept that the we came from apes we are degrading ourselves and deny ourselves we are not the image of God but beasts (apes). Degrading man in turn degrading God because the image of God is man. Believing evolution means salves to illuminaties. Freemasons and illuminaties themselves dont believe in evolution but in their gods. Don’t mistake me but just for an illustration I ask you just think will you accept you are the image of ape? That is what illuminaties want us to accept. If man came by evolution it should have been a continious process then at one point the whole spicies itself will be changed and the original species would have gone. Just think how mankind still exists. If man came from ape why ape and man cannot reproduce when they are mated even artificially? The WTS has not taught properly they only did misquotes hence many lost faith in WTS and go away to believe in evolution. I once again welcome you to put faith in Jehovah through Jesus. I searched many alternatives only to find that Jehovah and Jesus are true. Let death swallow up me and even if Jehovah don’t ressurrect me I will still love Jehovah and Jesus and never I will believe in evolution. If I live I will live for Jehovah if I die I will die for Jehovah. I encourage if possible why not preach people the truth? And that is what I am doing zealously although I don’t believe WTS.

      • Island Breeze

        If you lived in America, you’ll see plenty of proof we evolved from apes! People are animals.
        FYI, I have no proof- just life experience!

        • Isaac of Coimbatore

          Okay I understand

      • Bonnie Russell

        I’m not sure about all that. I’m not an evolutionist. You’d have to talk to my son. He explains it better than me. I don’t know. He showed me this video. Sorry if it’s inappropriate for this forum. I was just curious what people thought about it. He insists that assuming it’s either God or not God therefore evolution is a flawed way of thinking and that there could be a 3rd option that nobody is considering because of our egos. Hope I didn’t offend anybody. I just can’t talk about this with anyone I know becaus I feel stupid.

        In my opinion, it seems like this guy in the video makes sense on the surface but only because he was forced to repair loose ends that didn’t fit or make sense when they were scrutinized. But then most of it makes no sense to me. He uses a lot of big fancy words I don’t undersdtand until my eye glaze over like when a computer guy talks.

        Thanks for your patience, everyone.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-dMqEbSk8

      • Bonnie Russell

        I posted the wrong link earlier. Sorry. It says needs approval.

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