You do not know when the master of the house is coming

//You do not know when the master of the house is coming

Commentary on daily text for Jehovah’s Witnesses

Friday, April 21

Keep on the watch.Mark 13:35.

Upon recognizing that Christ’s presence began in 1914, Jesus’ followers rightly prepared for a possible early arrival of the end. They did so by intensifying their Kingdom-preaching work. Jesus indicated that he might come later—“at dawn or early in the morning.” If that happened, how were his followers to respond? He said: “Keep on the watch.” So a long wait would not justify mentally postponing the end or totally dismissing their expectations. In the new world, we will have reason to reflect on the fact that all the foretold events associated with the conclusion of the system of things did indeed take place. Meditating on how matters actually turned out will further strengthen our confidence in Jehovah and his promises yet to be fulfilled. We will surely be thankful that God, who ‘has placed times and seasons in his own jurisdiction,’ exhorted us to live with an awareness that ‘the end of all things had drawn close.’

COMMENTARY

Did Jesus exhort his followers to stay on the watch for the end or for his coming —and is there a difference? And does it even matter?

First, though, when did the Bible Students recognize that Christ’s presence was to begin in 1914? The answer is —never. From it’s very inception the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society taught that Jesus’ presence had begun in 1874. It was not until 1933, after Rutherford changed the name of the International Bible Students to Jehovah’s Witnesses, that the Watchtower dropped 1874 and picked up 1914 as the date for Christ’s presence. That being so, how could Jesus’ followers have been prepared and on the watch for his presence if they wrongly imagined it had already begun?

Since at no time has the Watchtower ever placed Jesus’ presence in the future, the same question could and should be posed today; namely, how can Jehovah’s Witnesses possibly be on the watch for his arrival when they are laboring under the delusion that he has already come?

But as regards the first question —for what are Christians expected to remain on the watch? The answer is, for the coming of the master. That truth is plainly evident in the illustration Christ related, saying: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping. But what I say to you, I say to all: Keep on the watch.” —Mark 13:32-37

According to Jesus’ illustration his slaves “do not know when the master of the house is coming.” That is because the day and hour of his coming is unknowable. The angels do not even know. That being true, the time of Christ’s coming certainly cannot be calculated by any sort of chronological formula.  

The prophecy of Malachi foretold that Jehovah, “the true Lord,” accompanied by his “messenger of the covenant,” his newly enthroned Son, Christ Jesus, would come in judgment to inspect His “temple,” or spiritual house of worship. “The appointed time” for the ‘judgment of the house of God’ to begin evidently arrived in 1918. — WT 2007 paragraph 4

Furthermore, his coming is not the end —as the Watchtower implies. The sudden coming of the master of the house relates to the judgment of the house of God. And that initiates the beginning of the judgment and the conclusion of the system. That is why the doorkeeper of the house is especially obligated to keep on the watch. But according to the Watchtower the master has already come. The foretold judgment of the house of God is history. But if that is true, why ought anyone continue to keep on the watch? Obviously, if Christ really came in 1914 that would have been the end of the matter. But here we are more than a century later and the Watchtower is calling upon the faithful to stay on the watch!

On the one hand the Watchtower rightly exhorts Jehovah’s Witnesses to stay on the watch. Tragically, though, for the wrong thing. Ironically, it appears that it is the Watchtower institution itself that is going to be found sleeping when the master suddenly comes. Indeed, it is even as the prophecy of Isaiah has foretold: “For Jehovah has poured a spirit of deep sleep on you; He has closed your eyes, the prophets, and he has covered your heads, the visionaries.” —Isaiah 29:10

Surely, the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses have demonstrated over and over and over again the truthfulness of Christ’s words: “You do not know when the master of the house is coming.” 

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2017-07-04T11:41:52+00:00 April 21st, 2017|Commentary|195 Comments
  • You raised two points here that I have never thought of. 1) If nobody can know the time when Christ was to return, not even the angels, how can we then use a chronology system to calculate a year when he was to return? Unless, of course the “return” is the “second coming” when Christ will be visible. 2) If Christ has already returned how then can we keep on watching for his return? I’d love to ask the elders these questions.

    • Why don’t ask them?

      • Richard Long

        I’d love to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation.

      • Hi. I certainly will. I want to ask the same elder I spoke to about 1914, as he seemed to enjoy answering my questions.

        • Richard Long

          we’re all hoping your endeavor has a fruitful outcome! we’re here for you if it doesn’t.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Very good questions. Please let us know the outcome.

    • Brian

      You will be cautioned about being or you have been listening to an apostate. I know the feeling already!

      • Burt Reynolds

        Why should anyone be afraid of being reprimanded by an elder or the watchtower when questioning the truth of what is said? We don’t allow it in our private lives, or against politicians. Surely the time will come when we are all reprimanded by Christ. We continue to judge ourselves by the watchtower standard, that they are right and we are wrong. I do it myself. But why should we? We assume the apostate label like a barrier that we need to overcome to convince them, but why should we? Why do we yield our stand to meet theirs lest we upset them and deny our thoughts and keep them private to appease them? So that we can remain approachable? It’s like putting the bible to one side at their behest while they are allowed to keep theirs, and as we are likewise expected by the world to argue our Christian standpoint from a secular scientific standpoint alone because ‘they’ don’t believe the bible. JW student is the one hoping to be saved by the witnesses, so they feel, and so on this small, time limited occasion before baptism and enslavement to the ‘spirit led’ part of Jehovah’s organisation, while he ( or she) is still being pursued, the tables are turned and it is the elders that have to prove the point….so let them prove it. They should be happy to. JW student has a right to expect them to. He is buying, they are selling, life….or the other! We are not apostate. They are….or so we would believe, yet we use the same bible. So therefore the only thing that divides us can only be truth. We need to let them tell it.

        • Brian

          Indeed Burt, I don’t judge myself by the watchtowers standard and anyone asking a genuine question regarding scripture and peoples perceived place in the arrangement should be entitled to a genuine scriptural answer, unfortunately for the very “inquisitive seekers” it is not so forthcoming, the “don’t run ahead” and the “light will get brighter” so just hang in here or where are you gonna go just doesn’t cut it.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Very true indeed. It seems one great psychological knot of game play!

          • Richard Long

            Matthew 23:13
            “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.

            I think we all realize the precarious path JWStudent will be negotiating,

            He has mentioned that he has access to one or more very reasonable/possibly woke elder(s), some here counselling said reasonableness may not endure beyond his baptism.

          • Richard Long

            Right! “You have to pass the bill before you can read the bill!”

  • Simpletruth

    Just because one is actively doing something doesn’t mean he/she is on the right track. People engage in non-productive activities all the time and because they are moving around they convince themselves that they are making progress. This reminds me of my brothers and sisters in the congregations. I’m not saying that they are engaging in non productive activity. Going to the meetings and preaching the Good News are very productive. However, it seems that ONLY focusing on these activities (rather than staying on the watch for Christ’s Coming) has them so busy that they can’t even see that they are asleep in this Time of the End.

    • yeah, like yoga or ice curling

      • Simpletruth

        LOL. Yea I know right:-)

    • Francis Bencharles

      Their idol has stopped watching, it’s only natural that they would also.

  • Yuri Fisher

    I think that now we are witnessing the fall of satan from heaven. Now or very soon he will start major problems to JW and also WW3. We are entering the 3.5 years of big persecutions and real coming of Christ. We were told by WT lies about 1914. Only now we can see how deep were those lies. And only those who recognize those lies and reject them will be saved by coming Jesus. Now after JW ban in Russia all JW are scared. They know it can come to them too. And organization is helpless. It will be destroyed in a minute by government. Jehovah will not protect JW organization. He will judge it. All the letters in the world will not help. After judgment Jehovah will clean his people. No more child abuse. No more lies. No more cruel elders.

    • Arvid Fløysand

      So true..and i belive the cleaning of Jehovahs house will begin with the” money-changers”(law department and those dealing with placing WT.money in dirty stocks )…being cast out of Jehovahs tempel (His spiritual true tempel build on the rock with Jesus Christ as cornerstone and his chosen ones as the solid foundation)
      This fallen worlds greatest idol mammon must as soon as possible be thrown out of Jehovas House…only Jesus Christ can, an surly will do so…just like he has done before and like Nehemja did earlier in the same manner .Those events with all the detaljs connected to it points forwards to this grand finale…”Our Father in the heavens,let Your name be sanctified.Let Your Kingdom come.Let Your will take place,as in heaven,also on earth”

    • Lev

      From Russia with love! Well done, Yuri! It seems to me that few realize that time has come fast! And they missed the moment of the trigger – Revelation 9: 1-11. Avaddon, Apollo, he’s the Terminator, already used his army! Wake up, people and repent before it’s too late! A Lev.

      • Yuri Fisher

        Привет дорогой Лев и Таня. Мы очень за вас переживаем. Как вы. У нас пока нормально. Я надеюсь что вы всё выдержите с помощью Иеговы. Он знает своих верных служителей.

        • Richard Long

          Yuri Said:

          Hello dear Lion and Tanya. We are very worried about you. How are you. At us while it is normal. I hope that you will survive with Jehovah’s help. He knows his faithful servants.

          • Richard Long

            Are we all comprehending that we are at this time concerned not merely for Lev’s freedom, but his survival. Incomprehensible to me just weeks ago.

            • Lev

              From Russia with love! Richard Long, we are all well, as our great God-seer has conceived. The Supreme Court of Russia did not prohibit the religion of the OSB, but closed only the organization, the firm, the corporation, which was drowned in frank materialism. “The date of April 20, 2017 has a chance to go down in history as a rainy day for the fundamental freedoms of man in Russia. Today, the Supreme Court has decided to liquidate the centralized religious organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia, as well as all 395 local religious organizations of this religion. In the historical perspective, this decision can lead to the most unfortunate consequences for believers of different faiths, as well as for Russia’s image on the world stage. “Did the OSB suddenly become preoccupied with the fate of a false religion? OSB is concerned about Russia’s image in the international arena? This is a complete absurdity and absence of the Spirit of Christ! Lev.

            • Song of Hannah

              Thank you Lev! Please continue to keep us updated on how you and the rest of our dear brotherhood in Russia are faring. No matter what. it is a concern to us all. (And if you suddenly go silent, our worries will increase greatly!)

            • Lev

              Dear Song of Hannan! Today was a one-day congress, he passed on apartments for 30 people. Everyone was watching the recording on TV. Everyone’s mood is exalted, everyone is happy to suffer for the cause of the Kingdom-in any case, they say so. I personally conveyed from you-brothers and sisters-your support and prayers for us. They put all the worries on Jehovah and were touched by your compassionateness. And the persecution was said this way: “30 years ago our brothers were in prison … they will sit and still ..

            • Richard Long

              Then continue in our love as you will in our prayers. Your endurance is our instruction. If there be practical help we can offer, please let it be known.

            • Lev

              Dear Richard Long! Thank you very much for the love you show to strangers! No, all the same, Satan was not all-powerful, he could not erase from people what was put into them by the Creator of Jehovah! I’m just happy to have such God! Time will tell … I hope to see it myself ..

            • Arvid Fløysand

              “So under the present circumstances,i say to you,do not meddle with these men,but let them alone.For if this shceme or this work is from men,it will be overthrown ;but if it is from God,you will not be able to overthrow them.
              Otherwise, you may even be found fighters of God himself.
              At this they took his advice,and they summoned the apostles,flogged them and ordered them to stop speaking on the basis of Jesus name,and let them go.
              So they went out from before the sanhedrin rejoicing because they had been counted worthy to be dishonored in behalf of his name”…Acts 5:38-41

              Dear Lev..you seems to have the same spirit as those faithful apostles …i hope to see you one beautiful day together with all the loving and caring faithful brothers and sisters on this site…than we will dance and sing like never before..
              “But on you who honor my name,the sun of rihteousness will shine,with healing in its rays,and you will skip about like fattened calves”..Malachi 4:2

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Arvid, that’s a wonderful post 🙂

            • Arvid Fløysand

              What makes it wonderful is exactly what you and me and all who really loves the truth are able to see and share…the wonderful paradise future that we all longing for…and as your avatar also reminds me of ,when we all can “live together in perfect harmony” 🙂
              That Kingdom is heading towards us in supersonic speed Daniel 2:34
              Lets look forward to that bright future with smile and joy and laughter ..hope to see you there soon Jamie

            • Thinking

              Yes Lev..we mean that..let us know of any physical help or,spirual help we can offer…but you over there are the strong ones…I hope we will follow your example …xx

            • Thinking

              Yes Richard..I am…it all seems so surreal..

        • Lev

          Спасибо, брат! Даже не смотря на большие расстояния и информационную загруженность современных людей очень важно ЗНАТЬ, что у тебя есть не только ЛЮБЯЩИЙ ОТЕЦ и ЕГО СЫН , но и БРАТЬЯ, объединённые в ОДНОМ ТЕЛЕ ХРИСТА- ведь он один наш СПАСИТЕЛЬ, а не “духовный ковчег” какой то “матери -организации” . Шлём тебе с Наташей крепкие объятия и пожелания крепкой веры в предстоящих всем испытаниях(Лука 18:8б). Лув.

          • Thinking

            Stay strong brother…I just got this in…is this an accurate report brother,,,it sounds legit….I don’t think this reporter/ journalists is a brother …notmthat ive been able to uncover anyway.
            This is his article it was written in Russian

            On April 20, Hitler’s birthday, Russia became the first European country to ban the religious confession of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Hitler also tried to do it, it did not happen. A little later, Stalin tried – with a similar result. According to the decision of the Supreme Court, for the first time since 1918 in Russia the property of an entire religious confession on the national scale will be confiscated – hundreds of buildings built on voluntary donations from the believers themselves. Confiscation is an important point of the Ministry of Justice’s statement of claim. People do not ask money from the state, they build prayer houses at their own expense, and the state selects them because they do not like the way they pray.
            The police, the FSB, as well as an endless number of vandals and youngsters of all stripes – all go out hunting for believers, women, children, grandmothers
            The cynicism of the situation simply can not be comprehended. Even before the court’s decision, the police and FSB throughout the country conducted raids on prayer houses, searched the believers, described their passports, photographed, issued warnings about criminal liability for “extremist” activities. I would like to stress once again: it started before the court’s decision. Now, when it is announced, the hunting season officially begins all over the country.
            The police, the FSB, as well as an endless number of vandals and youngsters of all stripes – all go out hunting for believers, women, children, grandmothers. In Chelyabinsk, the police have already dispersed the meetings of the deaf and dumb. In Taganrog, believers have already received criminal sentences for reading the Bible. Vandals already beat glasses and even threw grenades into church buildings. All this has already happened, and all this will intensify many times.
            We are on the verge of a massive religious genocide with unpredictable consequences. “Now the planting will start, as the confession is” liquidated, “but Jehovah’s Witnesses will not refuse to believe,” lawyer Anatoly Pchelintsev rightly points out. Indeed, faith can not be forbidden by the stroke of a pen. As a result, the country will simply receive 175,000 prisoners of conscience. According to Pchelintsev, some will emigrate, some will go underground. Those who can not do either, will be planted.
            The only basis for the ban is the controversial language, in the plaintiff’s opinion, in the literature and interpretation of the Bible
            Surprisingly, most journalists and almost 100% of the public do not understand the reasons for this process, nor its consequences. The situation is understood as follows: a) “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is a dangerous sect that commits socially dangerous acts; B) when they are banned, they will cease to commit these acts.
            “The end of the world for Jehovah’s Witnesses,” – naively writes RT. In reality, however, the situation is as follows: a) the only grounds for banning “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is “extremist”, that is, incorrect, literature. No other harmful acts of speech were heard at the trial, except for questions of blood transfusion, but even in this matter the Ministry of Justice could not provide any evidence.
            The only basis for the ban is the controversial language, in the plaintiff’s opinion, in the literature and interpretation of the Bible. “It’s not the quotations of the Bible that are extremist, but the interpretations of what is written in the Bible,” Svetlana Borisova, a representative of the Ministry of Justice, honestly stated at the trial.
            Further: b) after the ban, believers will continue to believe in the same way as they believed before. History does not know of cases when “Jehovah’s Witnesses” changed their beliefs at the orders of the authorities. If someone thinks that with the help of the prohibition of believers it is possible to “re-educate”, to remake the desired pattern, this is an extremely naive prediction. This does not work.
            The only thing that will change as a result of the court decision: people will have to be imprisoned. And you will not have to plant a rock band consisting of three people and not a Pokemon hunter in the same person, but almost 200,000 citizens of the country. An incredible number of people, which in modern history did not put any civilized state. We will have to build new prisons, whole prison networks. Of course, I want to believe that it will not be possible to plant such a large number of people. But in any case, a completely new page begins in the history of state-confessional relations.
            Lawyer Viktor Zhenkov told an instructive story: “This room was attended by a man who was born in prison, because his mother was sentenced on the fifth month of pregnancy as an enemy of the people to 8 years of imprisonment just because she was a Jehovah’s Witness. She gave birth, and the child spent two years in a prison orphanage, his father could not take him because he was exiled to Siberia.In 1991, the state recognized the mother as a victim of political repression, apologized to her, appointed a pension. , Having born He approached me and asked: “Does the Ministry of Justice wish to repeat this terrible story?” And I did not know what to answer, and I do not know now what moves the representatives of the Ministry of Justice and those who direct this process. ”
            Today, some continue to say: there will be no landings, the legal entity is simply banned,

            175 тысяч узников совести
            Антон Чивчалов – о запрете “Свидетелей Иеговы”
            SVOBODA.O

            • Lev

              Dear Thinking! Please do not take to heart what Elder Anton Chivchalov wrote! First, he first fled from Russia to Belarus until … Many were frightened and asked for political asylum in Europe (remember who was the first running from a sinking ship? There are those (Victor Kabanov), who escaped, even in Brooklyn and received the status of a political refugee. Now he and Elder-English-speaking herd grazes in the most peaceful, democratic country, yet … The rhetoric of “journalist” Chivchalova full of sarcasm, superiority and arrogance, nothing to do with Christ! Sling mud sitting in security, it performs custom OSB and even more with substitutes oih brothers in the faith and in general let RSD resents Bible -1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Fes.2:. 11-12. Lev.

            • Thinking

              Oh…so,the journalist who wrote this is a brother …an elder?
              Can I ask what does OSB stand for…amd thanks for your reply..amd keep safe

            • Lev

              From Russia with love! Dear Thinking, OSB is the Watchtower Society. It spread in Russia an appeal to the brothers that a convincing victory over Satan was won in the Supreme Court! Therefore among the brothers now reigns inspiration and euphoria from this victory, while …

            • Thinking

              I think your post was cut of brother …I know the society is going to,appeal to,a higher court…has this been done already?…

            • Lev

              From Russia with love, dear Thinking! Appeal is filed, but the train has already left! Yesterday the elders said goodbye to some “to Armageddon.” The District Overseer said in a closing speech that the Organization was losing about $ 1,000,000,000 of real estate in Russia. Apparently, the English-speaking brothers will lie an even greater financial burden-Luke 16: 9. For each group of 20-39 people secured a responsible brother for meetings in safe houses. In case of persecution, you must have a backpack with dry rations, tablets, documents, spare linen for a month. Everyone is recommended to remove themselves from social networks as “witnesses”. In general, we are preparing for underground activity! Lev.

            • Thinking

              My very dear Brother Lev..that was very informative and moving account of what is going on over there…thank you very much for taking this time to explain……may Jehovah keep you and yours very strong….in a way..I wish we were at this stage…I hope you still have your bibles…now you can aid your brothers and sisters…as doubts and possibly confusion set in over the coming months and years…it may take some time..but don’t give out…Jehovah will use you a lot now…..much sisterly love to you all over there…you are soldiers of Christ!!!!..and a very big encouragement to me and all others who read this page..xxxx

          • Richard Long

            Lev said:

            Thank you brother! Even in spite of the long distances and the information load of modern people, it is very important to KNOW that you have not only the LOVING FATHER and his SON, but also the BROTHERS, united in ONE BODY OF CHRIST, after all, he is our LIFE, not the “spiritual ark” of what Then “mother-organization.” We send you and Natasha strong hugs and wishes of a strong faith in the trials that are coming to pass (Luke 18: 8b). A lion.

    • Ed

      It sounds like the ban in Russia is a blessing then. Maybe you or someone else can answer this question before I go into lurk mode. If the WT loses control of some 170k members and they resort to going underground to meet in each others homes for bible study, what do they refer to themselves as?
      Because if you no longer peddle WT literature then your not a JW anymore at least in the corporate sense of the word. I actually wouldn’t mind be part of a movement like this it would probably do me some good and keep me out of the bars on the weekends.

      • Richard Long

        I think the mantle of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” both preceded and supersedes the corporate body, as the name itself was inspired and recorded in scripture and has nothing to do with what the corporate actors are up to, namely converting resources into cash and preserving it for their exclusive use at the expense of widows, orphans and abuse victims But thank you very much evil Templar Knight WT lawyers for letting us all wear the stink of of your overt evil acts, as if the blind presumptuousness of the GB “shepherds” did not make us smell offensive enough!

        • Thinking

          hang in there brother. ….if we are stinking to the world…we must be doing something right…and it means we are closer to it being completed…

          • Arvid Fløysand

            “But thanks be to God,who always leads us in a triumphal procession in company with the Christ and trough us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of Him in every place!
            For to God we are a sweet fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing : to the latter ones an odor of death leading to death,
            to the former ones a fragrance of life leading to life.
            And who is adequately qualified for these things?
            We are,for we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are,but we speak in all sincerity as sent from God,yes in the sight of God and in company with Christ.” 2Cor 2:14-17….
            btw i am happy to walk together with you and all the wonderful fateful brothers and sisters in this triumphal procession spreading the delightful fragrance of everlasting life in Jehovahs clean,free and peaceful Kingdom

        • Ed

          Thanks Richard you just confirmed my belief all along. So the things happening in Russia is a throw back to pre Russell days, no matching suit and ties and a three tooth minimum, perfect I think I would fit in just fine.(smile) So the bottom line is there reduced to being bible students without a cage around their head, sweet! the WT baggage had dropped off I hope. peace

          • Richard Long

            Ummmmm? They are down to their Bibles, their faith, and their wits…. and the title “Jehovah’s Witnesses” which will most certainly constitute them as a target rich environment for true extremists, as we are all likely to be in the near future. I only hope I can “fit right in”, for these have been and are Jehovah’s finest.

            • Ed

              That’s the point I was trying to make initially, They no longer hold the title anymore and that seems what Yuri was saying too. So if you no longer distribute WT magazines or what have you, then where is the persecution? there isn’t any, your simply walking down the street to attend a bible study if nothing leaks out at least for the moment until the beast mode takes effect. Don’t worry Rich, you’ll fit in, you have that built in “screw you” attitude. We all do. If someone says tomato don’t say tommotto just fill in the (blank) You’ll do just fine! goodnite brother!

            • they who?

            • Ed

              The brothers in Russia, unless they want to run around telling everyone they’re JW’s.
              But they just might likely because of the late stages of “Stockholm syndrome”. Maybe it would be best to keep ones mouth shut and help each other out grow close to each other, that way you would find out who your real friends are. peace DA!

            • ohhhh, you mean Jehovah’s witnesses

              Matt 5:15

            • Richard Long

              If I proved his point, will you please come beat me senseless?

            • Ed

              Could I borrow your Frances thing- a ma- jig. What’s a square root boy?

            • Richard Long

              That’s fair. Sorry that hardy knowing you or your personality, I needed more context to understand your point, which you provided and I now do. I’m not getting in the middle of this and you have to acquire your own by reading Frances’ dissertation on how our mind fills in the blanks we don”t see from awhile back. Warning: It is not a painless procedure.

            • Ed

              I think DA just proved my point about the tomato joke… it applies to everyone here because people are people and they can’t hold back there thoughts.

            • Richard Long

              sauce?

            • Ed

              you got spaghetti?

            • Richard Long

              i filled in the blank after you said tomato

            • Ed

              oh, I see

            • Richard Long

              Listen, we’re all gonna have to do deep introspection around the Idea that adopting the mantle of Jehovah’s People, even Isaiah 43 was premature and an element of the delusion. It has become our identity and now it is not. I am choking on it myself and my stomach is in knots, presently, but I proved it to myself in an essay of Robert’s that DA (ironically) linked me to. (sigh) He is a true brother, defending his faith, and i’ll not disrespect that, as I have and will be there time and time again.

            • Ed

              Yes I’m with you on that thought Rich. The deception is very strong and extremely hard to overcome and the scripture ….”you are my witness’s” that they used as a preface to advance even more deception by basically copyright the name “Jehovah’s Witness’s”. Before that they called themselves “International Bible Students”. Is there a scripture for that anywhere? As far as faith is concerned Robert definitely defends his faith but his loyalty to the WT, well….not so much, maybe that’s why I like him so much. As for the brothers in Russia, sure their faith may be tested to a degree since the WT equals Jehovah in some of their eyes but keep in mind that news travels quickly and they know it’s a political thing going on not the tribulation, so a potential stumbling block but my thinking is that they’ll pull through alright. Sorry I didn’t catch you post sooner sometimes my Discus account doesn’t work and please don’t respond either I’m trying to set a record for myself and go 3 months without clicking on this site. Got things to take care of. Peace and take it easy your brains in overload right now, you’ll be fine!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. ??

            • Thinking

              I cannot wait to be down to our bibles our faith and wit…and our name….Jehovah’s witnesses……and if we are to die…so be it….for we will live again!!

            • Rom 14:4 Jehovah can make him stand

          • Richard Long

            Ed, other than the obvious and endearing self-depreciation, I do not grasp the meaning of your statement. I know I’m going to be sorry, but can you please add some context so I don’t have to use my FrancesTM peripheral extra-sensory perception decoding mind-meld thingy.

            • Ed

              What part don’t you get? It’s not an insult if that’s what you mean. I was simply stating that if there’s no WT in Russia then it’s pretty much the way it was back when the bible students were meeting in each others homes in the late 1800’s that’s all. Much more exciting times with no manipulation or guilt and mind control. THATS IT!
              You don’t need your Frances decoding thing for that do you? I don’t have that kind of talent. By the way, I woke up a couple days ago and came to the realization that I don’t have anything to bitch about, I think I’m close to being cured thank God. Most people have much more WT baggage then I do, you included, so it gets a little old after a while. But I know your the new kid on the block and I’m happy for you that you found the site and others as well, so I’m just going to chill and read, I’ve been here a long time. So spill your guts out if you have to, it comes with the territory!
              The tomato thing is an old bar joke hope you got it, Hang in there Rich!

      • “you are my witnesses is the
        utterance of _______”

        a) the Watchtower
        b) the faithful & discreet slave
        c) the corporate sense of the word
        d) Jehovah

        Isaiah 43:10-12 https://download-a.akamaihd.net/files/media_bible/bb/bi12_23_Isa_E_43.mp3

      • Burt Reynolds

        I suppose Ed, one has to re-examine the meaning of the scripture that suggests that he who is ashamed of me/my name, then I shall be ashamed of him. ( don’t know where this is but someone will). I am an apostate fader according to watchtower standards , but it s not what the watchtower thinks of us that should be of concern to us , but what Jehovah thinks of our representation of what the bible heeds us to do. Thus I admit to being a Jehovah’s Witness, or, a witness if Jehovah and hopefully will have the courage to identify myself with the name when called upon to demonstrate my faith…..and before.

        • Brian

          Burt, why were you considered to be an apostate in the first instance?

          • Burt Reynolds

            Well, now you mention it Brian, I don’t suppose I was. That my first wife waltzed off with someone else was laid at my feet…unjustly I might add. The way I was treated….some wouldn’t talk to me, shunned, others gossiped, I was stripped of being a ministerial servant, so in real terms, I might just have well been apostate. I would have preferred it that way after I was threatened by the elders. In replace of my family, home, job, social standing and my position in the congregation after years of faithful service, I was given a watchtower article to read. The same attitude you get to this day from the congregants. Wife dies? ‘Never mind, she’ll be resurrected.’ I lost all the above and was given an article to read from an old watchtower. Sigh. That was the limit of their insight. I only became apostate when I found the truth about the watchtower, but only from the watchtowers point of view and my sister and her husband…an elder. Fortunately for me, I did not attribute my misfortune to Jehovah, but to the total absence of insight from my elders. I saw them for what they were, and though it was not a conscious decision at the time, I decided that ; one, the truth must lie elsewhere, and two, that Jehovah was more merciful than his people, and went off to find them both. It was not even a loss leaving the congregation, because I never once felt the love of Jehovah there. In fact I sense the love of Jehovah more through the screen of my iPad, than I ever did in the Kingdom Hall. I realise now that my entire life has been a wander in the wilderness until a year ago. I’ve done more time in the dessert than the Israelites, but I probably needed it and I don’t regret it. Tramping the wilderness is beneficial. It proves beyond a measure of doubt, that there has to be a creator; that this world and all that is in it, is in the hands of the wicked one and therefore worth nothing; and that Jehovah is omnipotent…as close as life is to consciousness, should we just choose to lift the veil. The only knowledge that you need, is to know it when you see it, and accept it when you do. And the rest will be added to you. The bible says so. That is why the yoke of Christ is light, yet so strong, it will give us the strength to die for the truth should the need be demanded of us. I would not want to over simplify it, or anthropormorphise, but when I look at my dog, lying in the sun as he is now, sleeping, safe in the knowledge of his creator, I begin to understand the peace that acceptance and the knowledge of understanding such a relationship, brings along with it. It is the essence of life itself.

            • Song of Hannah

              So happy you landed here Burt. I remember when you first came, and now it’s hard to imagine this place without you, with all you add to it, in warmth, knowledge, personality and love. And of course there are so many beautiful brothers and sisters like you, with so much to offer, but lost out there, adrift on a raft at sea. The poor congregations just don’t know what they are missing, and that’s so terribly sad. I keep praying more find this little island of spiritual sustenance.

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Song of Hannah, I hope Burt reveals to us what type of landing it was, a nice soft one or a bumpy one 🙂

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The Lord is near. Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving, let your petitions be made known to God; and the “peace of God” that surpasses all understanding will guard your “hearts” and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.Philippians4:Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/philippians/4/#v50004006-v50004007

            • Richard Long

              Burt, many here have profoundly touched my life, but no one so much as you!

            • Brian

              Burt, that was a very well thought out response, although your circumstances are different to mine I do see and realise as many do the common connection with the creator that I hope all will have now or into the future as you are relaying here. I do personally know of many that were treated so poorly in the congregation/s and as this behaviour is not a representation of Jehovah at all, but when one dons the badge it becomes so for those looking on!!

        • Ed

          I’m in agreement with you Burt for sure, no problem there at all. So tell me then, if you were in the same shoes of those in Russia knowing full well the lies and injustices that have taken place would you still admit being affiliated with the “Watchtower Corporation”? Is it what Jehovah would want them to do after the atrocities that they have committed in his name…to be shipped off to a Siberia gulag? In Robert’s last article he says that basically his spirit or blessing has left the organization so where does that leave everyone then now that the corporation doesn’t exist? I highly doubt anyone here would make that kind of sacrifice for some fat cats living in Wallkill with what they know now. I wish to have the courage to identify myself with the name as well, just not under the corporate umbrella, and we may not have to just as they in Russia no longer have to.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Hello Ed, (are you the Ed that used to be known as the Other Ed, to quote from Prince?). The watchtower is, as far as I am concerned, and hopefully as far as the inference of the bible is concerned, the organisation is the vehicle that Jehovah is using to proclaim his name. I do not see that the behaviours of the watchtower do anything to to deny that. Why? Because while they continue to bear the name of Jehovah, be it once removed now by the epithet JW.ORG, the greater their sin against the name and all it stands for; the greater meaning will have its destruction. It is presumptuous of us ( I don’t mean this personally) to assume the insult of the watchtower’s sins are as against ourselves or that somehow our association with the name is deminished by some wrongdoers. The opposite is true, we should be ever the more proud to own the name to ourselves, because then we may share in its vindication. It is not the acts of the watchtower that we own, in all their corruption, but the vindication of the name that we own, to rid it of this loathsome soiling.
            The call ‘to get out of her’ has not yet arisen, and even if it had, we are not asked to get out of the implications and meaning of the name. ( Some may see the Russia question as the beginning of the end, but if World War One was not, with 20, 000,000 dead, don’t be fooled into thinking that the persecution there is even a taste of what is to come. Don’t think for one minute that there is a limit that people will not sink to in their efforts to kill us all, because there is not. We will know when it’s time to get out of her when Jehovah rises up).

            The opposite action is true, to stay in the organisation. We take it to ourselves to own the name ever more publicly , lest we be seen as fair-weather friends of Jehovah, neither one thing or the other, cowering to save our own lives under the guise that some men have followed the exact same course we intend to do, ergo, to make life safe and easy for ourselves, saying Jehovah is with us, or that he will do nothing to us.
            The bible says to hate the wrong that sinners do, but to value them as people who are misled. Maybe this is why I spent so long in my own wilderness, because I could not see this valuable point, that it is not what Jehovah’s organisation does, but the name that it sullies and brings into disrepute. And the more it does that, the greater will be the vindication of it. Thus we want to share in that. To share in the prize, we need to be in the game, attached to it, part of it, supporting it, representing it, being unashamed of it because it is not what it appears to be, but what it is. And until we recognise that paradox, we risk disassociating ourselves from the name because of the evil-doing of men.

            So would I proclaim myself a Jehovah’s Witness you ask? The answer is yes, and oddly enough, I have never denied it throughout my sojourn in wilderness. Not through piety I might add, but because I believe in the creator, and knew him by name. But this is from the comfort of my armchair. When the test comes, I hope I will be true to my words, but that is the point of the test, is it not? I would advise anyone to look beyond the fat cats, ( they are our brothers) until such time that we are told not to share in their wickedness, and then to mark ourselves clearly with the blood of the lamb, because it is the watchtower’s very wickedness and timely destruction that will bring such vindication to Jehovah’s name as he comes to prove his righteousness. Thus it is that the distinction between the two, the name, and the watchtower, that will prove to be its value and the More marked the actions of the watchtower are for all to see, the greater the vindication. And thus the difference between the two. That is the paradox.

            • Ed

              Yeah it’s me…same old dog. Thanks for your explanation and I get your point. I was reading some of the things Brian was saying which kind of through a wrench in my thinking pattern. Sorry to peg you with so many questions but I got one more and I’m not trying to back you into a corner either, but do you attend or are you still winging it in the wilderness?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Ed, no, I do not attend the meetings. Carrying the name of Jehovah, and preaching it is one thing. Attending the meeting is another, and is a matter of conscience, not obligation as is the name. Some may say that attendance is necessary, but we have to ask ourselves for what. Each of us who attend, will have their reason, each who do not will have their reason. Some feel, like Perimeno, that the temple of Jehovah is within the heart, following the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem and the inclusion in the promise of non Jews. I prefer to believe that, maybe because it’s an easy way out, but a part of me argues within myself, as to whether my thinking is sound, and I have to say that I am not sure. I have nothing to gain from attending meetings, but I would have something to give. But truely, is the time right and how would people in the hall view me? We must view ourselves as others see us. I would not be silent on why I attend. I would also have something to loose If I went. My wife is Catholic damaged as much as many of you are JW damaged. My wife does not want religion, and who could blame her? But concern at world events is beginning to crack her defences and she is looking for reason. As are my residual family. For a multiplicity of reasons around this point, I do not intend to alienate her before I have to, if I do have to. When the chips are down, I intend to go to the brothers to offer insight, and that is precious little given my insight, and I intend to do that, with or without my family, and which is hard enough to write, let alone do. It is the brothers and sisters I am interested in. And I want to be effective, not alienate people who would otherwise, in the circumstances that exist now, view me as no more than an apostate. If Robert is attending his hall, and they do not listen to him, how would they listen to me? But when the storm breaks, and the call to get out is sounded, those that have ears will hear. I intend to give my help then. I can do nothing for the organisation.

            • Richard Long

              I am similarly situated, and cannot in good conscience even begin preaching again what I am unsure of myself. I would rather receive a judgement of death for not doing enough, than the same judgement for continuing to lie to others. Better a dead dog than a dead lion with lambs blood on his face.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well I see the point of what Robert is saying and it is supported by the scripture. However, thinking allowed………But is it the correct meaning? ‘You are my witnesses sayeth the Lord’. So, if I apply that to say a common place event like a road accident, does being a witness make me a part of that accident? Well yes it does, and I can be called to account for it, and even perjure myself at court should I not tell the truth of what I saw. The two issues are inextricably linked and cannot be undone. Further, the use of the word ‘witness’, appears to have contextual similarity to that used in the scripture…I.e., repeating the evidence of events. Does being a witness make me an ‘owner’ of what I saw? Yes it does. I have been given a responsibility thrust upon me, unasked for, and now I have to do something about it to ensure justice is done, by those who are given to mete out justice. So in what way does that make me an applicant for the job of witness as opposed to, being a lover of justice, an integral part of it with a responsibility to use it to ensure that the coming handing down of sentance is justified? Also, to be a witness of events, (and the same responsibilities give an obligation to witness by mere knowledge of even things unseen) one must understand what has happened in order to be a reliable witness and be already committed to the act of witness. Thus if one does not understand the laws of driving, known as the Highway Code in England, then how is one a reliable witness when asked to show who was at fault? Who has priority on a crossing for instance and when does that priority begin? With intent to cross the road, or when one actually places a foot on the crossing? In fact, it begins when one actually puts a foot on the crossing, and thus claims the right, but it is the responsibility for the driver to be aware that one might do so. (There were not always lights at a pedestrian crossing n England). Thus, we have to decide between intent, which is what the scripture may be inferring here, ergo, we intend to qualify as a witness, or in faith, do we have to put that foot on the crossing, to show our intent. One is actual, the other is theoretical and can be argued. Did you slow down, as the driver? Was his foot (decision ) on the crossing…a physical act. Does it matter? Well yes it does in this case, because are we talkng about commitment here, or just a hope, a wish to be associated with the chosen ones….assuming this applies to them alone. But is it not behoven on all of us to be committed and if it is, do we not have to show it? And if we have to show it, are we not part of it, and thus officially, a witness? Perhaps someone would like to set me straight because I am clearly missing something here in scriptural application.

            • Richard Long

              I think the WT programming has me all bunched up about it and I need to set it aside for a while.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I honestly think Richard that we are all in the same boat. We live for 70 years, or more if we are belligerent enough! Compare that with eternity. Some know infinitely more than others, but within our limits as humans, that ‘infinitely more’ is infinitely microscopic. We are dust on the scales. We know just enough to put ourselves in line for salvation, and that ‘enough’ is not even insight, but simply faith in what is revealed to us and in Jehovah’s mercy. You are not sucking on a milk bottle, you are in fact sucking on THE bottle. It’s about time you recognised that in yourself!

            • Ed

              Thanks Burt I can totally relate to what your saying and have felt the same way for a long time. I always believed that being a Christian isn’t something you wear on your sleeve it’s suppose to be in your heart and mind, or as Joel once said quoting the two greatest commandments, Love God with your whole mind, heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Hard for all of us here to accomplish since we fall short and end up mud slinging at each other and ten times harder at the hall. Thanks for being a straight shooter Burt, I’m going to take a break from this place before I go nuts! Later

            • Thinking

              Burt Perimeno encourages all if at all possible to stick it out at meetings….he acknowledge that some may not be able to do this for certain reasons….

              We go not for the brothers and sisters..we go to serve them when they will really need us when it comes down…it’s a bit like Beverly said in a way..
              Us going to meetings is like Jesus washing the feet of the apostles….

              I’m just getting at the feeling and reasons he did that…we go for our fellow brothers….it’s is out of great love and sacrifice …and I have yet personally not seen a scripture that okays staying away …..IF …I won to make that IF.very clear here……….we are emotionally and physically capable of going,…..

              Perimeno encourages us to,do just that…..or have I read you post wrong ?
              I’m a bit confused why you said what you did concerning him…but I probably misunderstood your thought ????

            • Burt Reynolds

              I’m in support of the ethics that Perimeno brings out on this point. Whether that is correct or not to do so, I’m not sure. My point about the temple being in the heart was from a discussion with him. He reflected my feelings about attendance, but as I have said before, it is a two edged sword of concience for me, in a fight with self and yes, with mental conditioning or outcomes and experiences from the past. You read my post correctly, but what I said was not even clear to me. I like to be straightforward with my brothers and sisters, often at my own expense regarding privacy of thought, because if we all hide our feelings and show only the accepted face of Christianity, and please ourselves with an outward appearance, we are being false with ourselves, painting a picture of what we hope to be with our brothers, not what we are, and denying ourselves the insight of others into the true human condition with respect to the truth of the Word. And how can our heart be true if our thinking is superficial? We also argue with Jehovah do we not and try to justify our actions. Being ousted by the brothers all those years ago, not only cost me my entire life at that time, and I do mean all of it, but also tore the heart out of my relationship with what I viewed as the very essence of life, Jehovah. Was I that easily dispensed with out of his organisation? When a collective of people can rape you of your reason for living, your hope and comfort without a shadow, a flicker of pity and raise themselves up over you as an example of their piety, of what does their relationship with Jehovah and his love consist? As you say, unless there is some emotive or emotional issue that keeps us from the meetings we have no excuse but it may just be that we have no excuse whatsoever to not go. And so I fight against myself, reason, arguement, fact, truth, mercy and forgiveness, my own, as well as what is required of us, and feel at times for my own salvation if I am continue here, let alone for what might be at the Kingdom Hall. It is easier, is it not, at times to think that the simple act of giving ones life for the truth, is an easier option than the constant consideration of what it is in life that we have to do in order to show faithfulness or save others, beyond trying to save ourselves from the conflict and conundrums of self and of this world. If we are to believe that this is an outpost of Jehovah’s love for us, who have all seen the corruption of the truth and reacted to it, then could it be that this is our sanctury, rather than that which we thought was that sanctuary? Maybe, mercifully, the broken in spirit are allowed to rest here and be fed, rather than hope for a scrap thrown from the table as you rightly note. I don’t know. Sometimes, I feel as though I have given all I have apart from my life, and I like to think that He is welcome to that too, but then I think do I delude myself and ignore a need to go back for more of the same lies at the hall in the hope of hearing an accidental truth be spoken? Why search a wheelie bin when there is the feast here? I need all the truth I can get just to tread water. And then some. Thus it is that I realise that it would not be to find truths at the Kingdom Hall that I would go for, but to hopefully share with someone willing, the actual way forward. I have to hope that Jehovah will show me where these are. When the Israelites entered into the promised land, did they long for the wilderness? If a straggler were there, would they go back for the person, or the dust upon which he stood? But maybe that is just a contrite, clever thing to say and is unworthy of speaking.

            • Thinking

              I hear you brother ..I’ve been there too…and am still there at times..many times..you feel you have been symbolically raped and lost all by the way certain men handled situations and your life..and how the WT taught these men…….what can I say..and I only speak up because I too experienced such raping as you….my son would still be alive if I had not bought him up as a witness …we were utterly and totally betrayed by those we trusted….we must all make this decision ourselves….me..I left but was directed back….so how could I not go back….as he drew me to this corrupt house for a reason…you see Burt ..I found my gorgeous son hanging,,,I pulled him down and tried to bring him back….and not once has those brothers apologized or even made a half hearted attempt to.
              They offered us the KH for his funeral…we refused…a beautiful brother stepped up and did his service..by the graveside..
              So yeah I have PTSD..and it takes me every bit of strength to follow Jehovahs direction and go back…he showed me the wheat and the weeds Burt…long before I knew of Robert or Perimeno….
              I constantly have to fight righteous anger and resentment….it’s a burden they have placed on me as well as my sons death…our pain and anguish has not gone unnoticed by Jehovah….and each must cope with what they can…I don’t know what your cong is like now..I hope it is better than the one you left…perhaps it is Burt…
              I made a formal written complain that went to the top and each person on the way up to the top…what they did to my son could not be shoved under the carpet..as they would have done….
              There is absolutely no way I would let those wolf like men hound my son and I down…they hounded us out..but Jah bought us back…with out Jehovah intercepting on my behalf…..I,would still be out……no my boy didn’t survive..but he was good with Jehovah..
              Jehovah has seen your treatment and knows your pain and anguish…but yeah..I still think you are wasted out their inThe wilderness…but Im
              selfish..as I want your sort by my side…
              My eldest boy who I might say struggles with depression and anxiety and has also been treated bad at times by our former cong,, sat me down when I refused to come back, ,he said,,
              ,,’ mum the cong needs ones like you,…Jehovah needs ones like you ….we need to help them…they don’t know how to love…we need to stay …we need to show love by our actions mum….they won’t listen to gods word…so we need to stay and show them..teach them that way…we have to show them by example…’

              I will never forget the wisdom of that boy’s words…and from one who had suffered as well…
              Much love to you my brother….I do hear you..xx

              .

            • Joseph of Aramathea

              You reminded me that we are all Wounded Warriors of Jehovah here. Yours is unimaginable……..
              Your Always in my prayers ❤❤

            • Beverly kenyon

              ??❤️ Horrific!

            • Thinking

              Also Burt you don’t have to get them to listen to you…just your presence there when it comes down or what ever lays ahead is enough..you are in place to be used by Jehovah..most it seems by scripture won’t listen…but at least you have sacrificed your time and energy for them and Jehovah …and are we so holy we won’t gain some benefit as well.
              Burt about your family…Jesus came to put a sword amongst us and our family…not peace..I’m in a divided home…I know the hell that is..so I don’t speak with out experience…
              Sure we can all stay home…butmwhen the sheep are scattered and go under ground….how will you find them…how will they even trust you….they won’t listen to any one they viewed as jumping ship …..we need to serve shoulder to shoulder with them..in good times and bad…
              Don’t ever think you won’t gain out ofmgoing to meetings,,,,you will always gain something…perhaps find a hurting sheep to help….just hearing Jehovah’s name …..a scripture bought out that you,didn’t quite get before…and yes that still does,happen….and most of all because the wheat are still there…
              You are wasted in the wilderness….
              Yes you support ones here..as everybody does ….but this audience Is very small…and already know things anyway…
              Big hug to you brother

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Thinking, I will give your comment deep and prayerful consideration. ?

  • “First, though, when did the Bible Students recognize that Christ’s presence was to begin in 1914? The answer is —never.”

    lol yep. Jehovah’s witnesses NEVER pointed forward to 1914 as the presence of Christ.
    the WT adjusted the teaching many years AFTER 1914.

    picture below is a lie.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cbb203c09ea49e29ea8005da8997d41183f6e38433874ead6ca24163bfe99d13.jpg

    continues reading, ha yep 1933

    • Richard Long

      Right, DA, but by the time I came around to studying, the WT line WAS that 1914 had been FORETOLD. Maybe that’s why I’m so pissed. 1, for the org deception, and 2, for being dopey enough to fall for it!

      • yeah they always said that and im guilty of repeating that too. yet none of the WT library actually showed any actual evidence

    • Brian

      If it is the case that they didn’t foretell of 1914 then it was in retrospect which means they also were not awake when he arrived according to their own beliefs.

      • im thinking maybe youre still on that they aint Jehovah’s witnesses trip.

        in retrospect for the reason all their
        sin and error match exactily what
        scripture says, they are Jehovah’s
        people. if they were flawless then
        we wouldnt know who Jehovah is
        speaking about or Jehovah be wrong about who he is talking to.
        Jehovah’s witnesses dont know
        everything but in what ways are they
        like the rest of the world and in
        what way are they are in a “deep sleep” because they “love it that way”?

        “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “I myself will also take and put some of the lofty treetop of the cedar; from the top of its twigs I shall pluck off a tender one and I will myself transplant [it] upon a high and lofty mountain.”

        https://e-watchman.com/watchman-jehovahs-witnesses/

        (… editing link here …)

        https://e-watchman.com/pour-spirit-every-sort-flesh/?print=print

        https://e-watchman.com/will-pour-spirit-days/

        https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

        • Brian

          The JW’s can say and call themselves what they like and people can believe that they are “God’s Congregation” or not. To me they are just another part of the apostasy that was foretold that would come and be here until the revelation of Jesus, the only difference to me is how much of an apostate the groups of those that profess to be in union with Christ as followers are. The whole world lies in the “power of the wicked one” and there is a very good reason for this, just as Jehovah doesn’t want an organised group of “his people” such as he had with the nation of Israel for which he disbanded through disloyalty as a group it would seem that everyone stands on his own and needs to navigate Satan’s world on his own as an individual. Sure there is a need to congregate to up build but this doesn’t give the congregation exclusivity in being God organisation”.
          As you believe that the 1914 scenario is bunkum so it should be with you that you don’t believe all that is attached to it, it is and of itself apostate no matter how you want to dice it up, to use computer speak you need to revert to the default setting.
          Whilst JW’s do a great job going from door to door preaching the “good news of the kingdom” their message is incorrect as the preaching just as it was in Jesus day was to collect those for a special purpose (to be sons of God) and not that you are going to live on earth in a paradise, I’m inclined to think that that message goes out to the nations as the “bitter and sweet” message that John was told to eat after the “chosen ones” have been sealed and that did not happen in 1935 as everyone still holds to. Once again they are putting the cart before the horse, this does not make them gods people but in fact they could indeed be (maybe inadvertently) usurping Gods plan, these are all products of the 1914 teaching, like I said, revert to the default.

          • thats because youre stuborn and lazy to read

            • Brian

              Lazy to read I am not! Stubborn maybe but I have never met a JW yet that would be less stubborn than I. Maybe you should try reverting to the default setting as well, I don’t know how you can sit with the “brothers and sister’ knowing that all that is related to 1914 and the belief system that they have created by this little gem is not what it seems.
              I like a lot of the writings that Robert has here but even he hasn’t thrown off the cloak of all of the 1914 beliefs, yes a lot obviously has been but not all, one that immediately springs to minds is the “Anglo American” empire being the two horned beast, trouble is the thing hasn’t arrived as yet, this comes from the belief that the Kingdom arrived and the beast has to be here somewhere, I believed it myself for a while but seeing as Jesus and the Kingdom hasn’t arrived well it can’t be what people perceive it to be or more to the point what they want to be.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I agree with you Brian insofar as prophesy is not realised until it happens. Yet the scriptures demand that we keep on the watch. If we were to keep on the watch passively in respect at looking at likely applications and outcomes, then we would not be able to determine that the end is near, or that warning signs are afoot….to take heed….to prepare and so forth. We do see though an opinion in application of the prophesy. One reason is that until the times we live in came to, or is coming to fruition, such interpretation of the signs was not possible with evidence to support it. In Russell’s time, his words were just flimflam in this respect …nothing other than emotion to back it up, generally speaking. But Christ used the example of the tree coming into bloom, and knowing that Spring is near. This implies that we take the evidence and make an interpretation, not in fact, but in generalisation. One tree blooms…..it happens out of season. All the trees bloom…..well, the advent of Spring must be upon us. Why? Because Jehovah made those laws that govern the process. Not man. That is why the scriptures say ….when you see all these signs know that the end is near. The signs are clear, yet as you point out, the analysis of those signs can be open to conjecture. Does this make a difference to the sign in general? Should it stop us from continuing? So a gap is left…..it is always left open, between conjecture, analysis, fact and deceit and the only thing that will bridge it, is faith, not in the fact so much, as in the faith that we will be delivered from it, no matter what form it takes.
              The fact that the beast is linked in some way, or could be to what the watchtower predicted or implied re 1914, may or may not be a factor for our consideration, but at the present, the evidence indicators point to the Anglo American alliance, the more so as Britain seeks to unseat trump. Evidence indicators, I.e., supporting evidence at law, is in fact recognised at law, in its total value as a genuine evidence, though without material evidence. This is why ‘intent’ is a legal issue when it can be seen. Thus the evidence indicators of the Anglo American alliance can be relied on as a composite part of the sign because the evidence at this time supports that. This is useful inasmuch as it ‘makes sense of’ the issues we see and can lead us to have faith. At some point the ‘signs’ will all have to agree with each other. And in the end analysis, it is faith alone that in no matter what happens, we stay loyal to Jehovah, that will deliver us. Like you, I put my trust in it all because it is so well supported and the motive is clearly honest and revealing, but I do expect to be surprised. I get the feeling that we should all expect to be surprised. I mean, no one expected the Spanish Inquisition, did they?

            • Brian

              Hi Burt, I do try to keep on the watch as best I can with what is going on the world. Now I could make some pretty outlandish statements to what I might think is going to play out with what I see and line up with the scriptures, I do this in my head and only discuss these scenarios with some close people that are looking for the same “truth”.
              It can be a fools errand to proclaim all sorts of scenarios based on a lot of previously “understood” beliefs or happenings, some of these are spurious and have many peripheral happenings shoe horned into the scenario to make it palatable, i know people may have good intentions in doing so but I don’t see the point in looking for something to create a “believable” situation to attract people to you.
              I try to look at all things going on now to see it there is an actual coming together of all things that are to take place to put in the correct straits of time, we are allowed that because we were given warning to look out for but they must all come together with shoe horning anything into the equation. To me, it is no good looking for the beast when it clearly hasn’t arrived, we won’t have to search out to find it, we will know it ids here then we can then know at least where we are in the straights of time, until we see all of these thing unequivocally everything else is just fluff. If the so called Anglo American Empire is indeed the two horned beast we have missed the disgusting thing standing in the holy place as it appears to turn up after the 7 headed beast, and the tribulation that is taking place at the same time.if it is not here it is not, I see this again as the product of 1914.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Brian. I just don’t think I’m any good at calculus and the more intricate reasoning. You seem to have a point about the seven and the two headed beast, but it seems to me that the two headed beast is not seen as yet….though may correctly be identified, because at this point it is not declared. Be that as it may, like you it seems, I just wait for things to be made plain and that which I do read, whether or not it should be acted on. As for the watchtower teachings bring heavily embedded in me, I think having things embedded in my mind is a luxury that has long since past me by. I seem to run on instinct these days.

            • Robert’s work here is awesome
              and true but you wont accept it

            • Brian

              I do accept a lot of what Robert is writing here as being true, just not all of it.

            • John 17:26
              2-Thess 2:4

          • Richard Long

            As we are new acquaintances, may I please know your general opinion of the conclusions Robert has drawn in his work, Jehovah Himself has Become King? I ask not to hold it up as a substitute for the Bible, but as to know if we are approaching this question from similar vantage points.

            Leaving behind all all that is attached to 1914 still leaves us with, among other basic truths all but lost humanity but for the efforts of persons associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses. The personal name of God and the true identity/purpose of Christ as the subordinate son and willing ransom was restored following an absence of nearly two millennia, to not only us, but the entire world, by Russell and associates, his personal freemasonry and gematria style bullshit mysticism aside. And Rutherford, himself an abominable lecher reported to have multiple mistresses at Bethel, restored (or possibly was the first ever to reveal) to us the identity/destiny of the great crowd. Knorr was said to be a thundering bully, and yet his superb organizational skills propelled the preaching work to previously inconceivable results Franz, an ordinary and unlettered man, produced one of, if not the finest transliterations of the holy scriptures known to man, yet is credited with the 1975 “expectation”.. Henschel was our lovable grandfather reading the audio scriptures to us and narrating our faith affirming films. Jehovah works with the materials at hand, usually refuse, myself included

            So, I am reinforced in my acceptance of the paradox, as explained by Robert and very persuasively expounded upon by Burt some days ago – namely that anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses and we their companions ARE Jehovah’s people AND AT THE SAME TIME those leading us, and therefore we, ARE apostate! The Either/Or thinking we had all adopted is part of the delusion we labored under. Robert has repeatedly, and in my opinion definitively, demonstrated that once the 1914 hoax is deconstructed, a mere reading of the prophets, with NO INTERPRETATION WHATSOEVER reveals the apostasy foretold by Paul as infiltrating a people that are the personal possession of Jehovah. Said “nation” was absent the world stage for millennia until this modern era. As to the exact point in time apostasy set in I cannot say for sure, but my assertion would be at first utterance of a date specific predicting or proclaiming the parousia, as such has proven to be false prophesy, or worse, false testimony. Jesus, the LAST PROPHET ever raised up by Jehovah, plainly stated was unknowable in advance by anyone save his Father,

            Regarding the delusion, I am not excusing, but with each day becoming less enraged at the WT and the GB and more realistically critical of my own behavior. It was I who engaged the “manual override” of my personal “incongruity filtration mechanism”, was it not?.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Wow, Richard, I can’t begin to tell you how much I love this post. Rutherford, an abominable lecher, allegedly, Knorr, a thundering bully, Jehovah works with the materials at hand and the last paragraph are the things that impressed on me. All the relevant things brilliantly written in one post! Love it!

            • Brian

              Yes, he did hit the nail squarely on the head!

            • Beverly kenyon

              True Brian. Squarely! No arguing with his post. Brilliant!

            • Richard Long

              Brian, I am confused that you express support for my comment given your very confident and consistent stand that Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot rightly identify themselves as the contemporary “people of Jehovah’s personal possession”. May I infer your agreement was limited to the indictment of the individual personalities referenced excluding the assertion they were in fact used, flawed as they were, by Jehovah to warn/prepare mankind for the arrival of the Kingdom?

              Uh… and the part where i took responsibility for being an idiot.

            • Brian

              I am not saying that they can’t be “Jehovahs people”, just that they aren’t at this point.

            • Richard Long

              gonna let that rattle around awhile, kay?

            • Brian

              “Kay” indeed, I wouldn’t expect anyone to jump right in without looking at and analysing it before doing so.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I can see Brian’s point about 1914 being a focal point, but it is not, in my opinion, the lynch pin of all other teachings as Brian feels they may be if I understand Brian correctly. I view it from a scriptural example, though the two are not related, and that is, that the hand cannot say to the foot ‘ I have no need of you’. Each theory of the watchtower is built upon the 1914 lie, it’s true, but these and other issues, though part of the lie, are independant of themselves in many respects. Thus the witnesses meet the biblical title of Jehovah’s organisation, but that does not necessarily make them part of the lie. It didn’t for me, or for you or for many others here. I think in many respects, the bible asks for just plain uncomplicated acceptance from us, based on our frail judgement of what is truth, like the Boreans. That in itself is enough for sinners to do. To try to argue or justify faith and scriptural belief on the basis of what the watchtower teaches and how that affects the bible, is a madness too far as the opposite is true. The watchtower will be judged on what the bible says.

            • Richard Long

              I believe I am graduating toward complete agreement with you. Brian, like all of us here, is completely justified in his mistrust of WT teachings, seeing the need to “quarantine” them for thorough critical reexamination. But also like all of us, has a unique (and valuable) perspective that serves us well collectively even though none of us have a complete understanding. I had not yet progressed on to consideration of the two horned beast, but must pause to absorb his assertion that it has not yet arrived. I think not yet fulfilled its prophetic role so as to be unmistakably identified is the position I would take at the moment. Formerly, I imagined it to be America specifically, as even the US constitution is false prophesy promising equality of personage, justice and opportunity for all and delivering none of the above while still claiming to have done so. I thank him for the provocation of thought and you Burt for soundness of reason and constant insistence that truth is NEVER complicated, only our perception of it is. I greatly value and depend on you for this!

            • Brian

              Hi Burt, I have posted here a fair bit already on this 1914 subject, maybe you are not seeing the real ramifications of it, I know it is really embedded in peoples minds but the ramifications are not realised in some people that easily.
              Yes the Watchtower and all other Christian representation will be judged on what the bible says and what they have done with it or not done with it and the people, just because the Watchtowers says they have already been judged does not make it so, this is also a 1914 deception.

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, for one I have not read Roberts book Jehovah has become King, for one I have always viewed Jehovah as King.
              Maybe if I say this, Jehovahs witnesses at some point in the future may attain the position that they are claiming for themselves at this point, maybe the won’t for reasons such as the exclusive collection for themselves the “anointed brothers” of Jesus, now to me this is probably the biggest mark against them in regards to the 1914 hoax, if you go back to prior 1935, 1925, 1915, 1874, or 100 CE the message was the same, go out and make disciples of all of the people, leaving 1914 aside, when did that actually change? Now seeing as how the Kingdom message was not about the “great crowd” or a paradise earth that the Jews already knew about, it was about collecting for himself a possession, a nation that will bring all other into a good working relationship with the Father, when did this change, certainly not in 1935 or any other time for that matter. I know some people may just say it’s a1914 hoax big deal but it is a bigger deal than people realise.

        • Brian

          What do you make of this coming from “gods people” Matthew 24:26 “Therefore,
          if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out;
          ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it”. I chose not to believe them, and you?

          • when people start saying that then i will obey and take Jesus advice and so will
            many other witnesses

            • Brian

              But they have already stated that he was or is in the inner chambers by announcing that the Kingdom has arrived and in him being in this “parousia” would be acting as the high priest in “the inner chambers”. This was one of the scriptures that “awoke” me many years ago.

            • exactly, “they”, those in Jehovah’s organization of Jehovah’s witnesses. thank you 🙂

              https://e-watchman.com/antichrist-coming/

              ding ding ding ding, we have a winner!

  • Bklyn Kevin

    Roert:

    This scripture in Revelation 3:3:-B is suggesting that if we DO stay awake it is possible to know the hour?

    “unless you wake up” , I will come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I will come upon you. Revelation 3:3:-B

    kind of a discrepancy when you consider Mark 13;32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father

    Therefore, continue mindful on how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping it, and repent. Certainly unless you wake up, I will come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I will come upon you Revelation 3:3.

    A good question to answer on your podcast show if you like,

    • Burt Reynolds

      I didn’t read it that way Kevin. ‘Unless you wake up….I will come as a thief’, is another way of saying keep on the watch. In my mind, at present I hasten to add, the phrase does not point to physical process of awaking prior to the event, but of being aware and responsive to the events as they unfold. Thus being receptive (awake) to change at the time, not before…I.e., being made alert by the events as they occur. Thus one may be sleeping quite peacefully as Russia et al prepare for war and when the bomb falls in your back garden, suddenly thinking, hey wait a minute, how can world war be happening, the watchtower said it wouldn’t. I think I had better revisit the scriptures and check this out!’ This is different from being awake beforehand, but ‘unless you wake up…’ can also be in the present tense, like being slapped in the face. ‘Wake up!’ ( stop being blind, see, here is the tangible evidence) as well as being referring to a past event and a future process. Sometimes the thief being in the house, wakes the person up. As with the thief executed with Jesus, the repentant realisation was immediate, a waking up with just a few minutes to go! I don’t know, maybe I misread your statement. I’m just playing with alternates!

    • Andres Felipe

      Of course if you can respond on the website. ..Better?

    • Arvid Fløysand

      Matt.25:1-13…All of the 10 virgins became drowsy and fell asleep and they all wake up at the same time…but the big difference was that the wise ones was prepared with extra oil….
      Matt.26:40-45…Peter,Jacob and Johannes was the most prominent of the apostles…still they fell asleep “at such a time as this”….so who will be awake when He arrive?…maybe no one…but i belive some will be ready with” extra oil”…;-)

    • Francis Bencharles

      That’s a perceptive question. Also notice that the messenger of Sardis is also admonished to repent. The council to repent was given in the prior messenger of Thyatira’s message, but apparently they had not repented as of the time of Sardis. Some did as their garments are said to be undefiled by the sin of Thyatira and the experience with the U.N. . What do you suppose it means when the angel asks the messenger of Sardis that he has the name that he is alive but he is actually dead?

    • Brian

      Kevin, if you were to be asleep at the time you would miss the hour that Jesus arrives and still miss it even after it arrives, if you are awake you will see the hour and not in retrospect but in actual real time.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Now that makes good sense Brian thank you….

    • the day obviously is unknown.
      we get that part right.

      when a thief breaks into your home,
      does it make him less of a thief wether you are asleep or awake?
      no. he has still come as a thief but
      those that are awake keeping on the watch will know the thief has arrived downstairs crawling through the window but those asleep arnt going to know the thief has come.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Food for thought.
        DA said “but those asleep arnt going to know the thief has come. END quote.

        But they all fell asleep, so I suppose all 10 virgins are not going to know the thief has come?
        So how is it that five virgins stayed awake IF they were sleeping also?.

        While the bridegroom was delaying, they all became drowsy and fell “asleep”.
        Matthew 25:5 Read more>
        https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/matthew/25/#v40025001-v40025013

        • Jamie Mac

          Hi Kevin,

          If they all became drowsy and fell asleep waiting for the bridegroom, who is that shouts out in the middle of the night?

          ‘ Right in the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Go out to meet him.’ Matt 25:6

          Obviously falling asleep was not the problem. Isn’t the point here that the 5 discreet virgins had absolute faith that the bridegroom would come and the other five were lukewarm because their faith was not 100%.

          What does the oil represent? Faith? Assured expectation of things hoped for? Hebrews 11:1

          • Bklyn Kevin

            The Wise and Foolish Virgins.

            Excerpt:
            Now, as regards the meaning of the story, the oil represents the knowledge and spirit we have. In the illustration of the two slaves assigned to feed the domestics “their food at the proper time” represents the same thing – knowledge and instructions. But what happens to that feeding program when the master unexpectedly arrives and finds that all is not as it should be? Although it is unsaid, likely there would be a disruption of the feeding program itself, or rather – a cessation of it altogether. Especially might that be expected when the negligent slave is put out of the kitchen! (Similarly, Paul indicated that the Evening meal – the memorial of Christ – will only be observed until he arrives, at which point it will cease.)

            It was in the next breath that Jesus spoke of the wise and foolish virgins. The call in the night – “Here is the bridegroom! Go out to meet him” – will be when Jesus arrives unexpectedly and the parousia begins. At that point the Watchtower will have served its purpose, as far as preparing a people to receive Christ. It will then have nothing left to offer – except for those foolish virgins who at that critical moment go to it to purchase more oil. (“Remember the wife of Lot.”) In their case the “deluding influence” will reveal that they did not accept the love of the truth.

            The wise virgins with enough oil in their lamps will not look to the oil merchants then (the Watchtower), but will have the spirit in them to guide them through the dark to Christ. The bridegroom’s coming while the foolish virgins are off trying to buy more oil will coincide with many being stumbled and deceived by the false christs then, while the far-sighted eagles are gathered to the carcass.

            So, the parousia will unfold over a relatively short period of time, beginning with the announcement – “Here is the bridegroom”! And ending when the wise virgins are received into the wedding feast and the door is closed – coinciding with the sealing of the chosen ones and the completion of the Kingdom of the heavens. At which point all 144,000 will have been chosen and approved and the door to heaven shut. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/wise-foolish-virgins/

            Read a lot more> Search results for: oil
            https://e-watchman.com/?s=oil

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Kevin , that was a quick reply :-). thank you

              Guess I got a lot more studying to do 🙁

              Thank you.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Another view..
              The Parting of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
              Excerpt:
              In the illustration the rousing call comes in the middle of the night: “Here is the bridegroom! Go out to meet him.” It is at that point that the foolish virgins impose upon the wise ones to share with them their oil, which they refuse to do, saying to the foolish: “Perhaps there may not be enough for both us and you. Go instead to those who sell it, and buy some for yourselves.”

              In other words, at the point of the bridegroom’s arrival there is nothing that any anointed individual can do to impart enlightenment to another. Then their success or failure will be determined by what they had done prior to the “announcement.” Indeed, it is at that point that a parting of the ways will occur. That separation is the commonality to virtually all of Jesus’ parables. For example, regarding his parousia Jesus said: “Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/parting-wise-foolish-virgins/

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Speaking of study I have a lot to catch up on myself, anyway enjoy the articles that Jehovah has provided through Robert.

            • Jamie Mac

              Yep, me 2, I have been looking into the time of end articles. I needed to go back and revisit them. Now I have more regarding what we have been discussing just now.

              D.A mentioned something about a graphical timeline regarding the time of the end that you had looked into . I cannot image that being any easy task.

        • exactly, as Robert has pointed out, both virgins feel asleep but the foolish go
          running back to the Watchtower mother
          for oil. its the cry that the bridegroom has
          arrived that causes them to get things
          in order. since the virgins are directly
          the anointed but an illustrated example
          for all, whos to say other sheep
          are not awake at the time and impart
          understanding? Dan 12:4

          • 4 But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.
            6 So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses. 7 For those who sleep are accustomed to sleep at night, and those who get drunk are usually drunk at night.

        • Francis Bencharles

          There is a great announcement on the arrival of the Bridegroom.

  • LW
  • Shiloh

    Another great article it… but there’s always that 1914 disconnect in every article? If truth is the that 1914 concept doesn’t factor in to “the entire picture in time” meaning from Eden to the end of the 1000 yrs of Christs reign my critical thinking asks ‘how on earth can any former or current JW say they are anointed since the basic foundation for understanding/explaining Bible prophecy accurately and even being anointed is tied in with those former ones?’ it just doesn’t jive to me. Personally, I do believe that about a century ago the heavens were in fact cleansed, and Jesus did secure Kingdom Power 1st in the heavens resulting in satan & brood limited to earth where they began forming the structure for a Global Rule or NWO frame worked into all branches of society today, why they even established the Federal Reserve monetary system back then and the league of nations (which in a baby like form), later the UN as more of a young adolescent now maturing into adult, ending with the last stage of development a NWO. Exact year (moment) matters not to me, what does matter is approximate time correlating to current events and if that’s in harmony with Bible prophecy. And to me it really does.
    Before the real bad sins of the org became known I heard of the demonic images in the artwork & brushed it off but checking into it well it’s gone deeper than that. It’s not just “tagging” like a street gang marking their territory. They use it to communicate with one another, so I ask can anyone explain the black/white or dark/light shading with the one eyed picture of Christ is signaling in the picture above and why it is there?

    • I understand. It is hard to get disconnected from the constant 1914 brainwashing.

    • Brian

      I don’t know about the demonic images but the rest sounds about right. I can’t see how people that disown the 1914 belief still hang onto all of the other “teachings” that were spawned from it, one cracker springs to mind about the separation that started to take place in 1935, it was a load of bollocks then as it is now but people still run with the content or the beliefs of it, i find it amazing but I am not surprised by it. It is somewhat like Luther, his biggest qualm with the Catholic church was the sale of indulgences, the rest he pretty much still believed in and I see this is not really any different.
      It’s the same with the “god’s organisation” on earth, when did this happen one could ask, I am of the belief that it came from them positioning themselves wrongly as “the administration at the full limit of the appointed times”, everyone that comes on here knows full well that the appointed times has not arrived but still believe they are “gods organisation on earth”, as far as I can see Jehovah has had enough of humans to organise themselves so i don’t see him having another “organisation” on earth, as far as I can see it is the Kingdom itself that is the administration at the full limit of the appointed times “that will gather together those of the heavens and those of the earth”, to do or say otherwise is no different to the Pope saying he is Christ’s vicar on earth and that “Holy Roman Church” was the Kingdom on earth.
      The “anointed” are dispersed throughout the earth amongst those that profess union in Jesus and no one knows except Jehovah who they are not even Satan as he has to flood the earth to go after them when he is cast out of heaven. When humans are involved in being “God’s Organisation on earth” there is going to be lies and trouble, now is a case it point!.

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Very good comment…

      • the congregations are obviously
        already on hand before the time of
        the day of the Lord.

        Revelation 1:10
        Isaiah ch 19

        • Brian

          The congregations are indeed at hand as the letters to the 7 congregations confirm it, the problem we have is when someone or body think that they the absolute representation of all of those congregations especially as Jesus hasn’t even turned up to sift or judge them as yet, once again 1914 rears it ugly head as that is used to time slot in a “gods organisation” or “an administration at the full limit of the appointed time”. You must know that that is incorrect because none of these thing that have been stated in and from the past have come to fruition..

          • the organization of sheep known as Jehovah’s Witnesse’s congregated in Kingdom Hall’s accross the globe are an “absolute representation of all of those congregations”. that doesn’t mean that there are not people unrecognized or not branded with the lable JW (like Kellogg’s or Goodyear Tires as i’ve said before) are not also belonging to Jehovah and even anointed but by fact a witness of Jehovah is who they are and they will admit that. https://e-watchman.com/name-jehovahs-witnesses/ who admits they are Jehovah’s witnesses? the answer is obvious.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Well what are they communicating and to whom and why? I can not read anything into subliminals other than insult. Why hide the message and what is the point of it’s almost invisible subtlety? Also, the 1914 issue is surely pertinent as it is the focal point of belief for witnesses and in arguement, it is the point at which the truth is tested as without it, how could the true bible prophesy come into focus so clearly? The 1914 lie, is the lie that is tolerated to allow the faithful to be tested…the operation of error. I think we judge the throwing down of Satan by our own standards of fear. I feel quite uneasy that we underestimate what it will really be like at our own peril.

    • Richard Long

      The “invisible” parousia and it’s supposed 1914 onset are the sum total foundation for the WT’s claim to ecumenical authority​. Without it, even the GB would admit they have no business doing what they do.

      • Brian

        So true Richard and this is what I a trying to convey here, a reset in everyone’s minds as to what has been taught that comes from this fable. When you start to analyse what does come from it it can come as quite a shock. Just as they have twisted, bent and shoe horned happenings and prophecy together instead of themselves manning up and going back to the default the stories become solid beliefs and remain convoluted. People are looking or referring to things that don’t exist as yet but because of the lie they believe it, e.g. the beast, according to Revelation that is depicting the Lords day it is already here in some peoples minds, but if you don’t believe the 1914 thing it shouldn’t be, same goes for the two horned beast and everything else that is in Revelation and a big chunk of Daniel. I know it is hard for people to throw it off as I have had to examine every part of it to do it.

        • Richard Long

          And in addition to everything else I’ve said on the matter, this particular comment I not only completely agree with, but am the complete embodiment of. Having discovered the mental malware and determined the scope and impact of the infection, the user quickly determined a complete government level wipe and reformat of the hard drive with ensuing installation of an uncorrupted operating system was required to restore the system to health. The system was stripped down to the bios, said firmware consisting of a genuine love for God and poised to query for truth and nothing more.

          Can’t remember if that came from the book of Burt or the users manual by Jamie Mac, but it fits.

          Every sentence, every word, every punctuation, EVER read. And not just because I don’t trust the WT, but because I was the most foolish when trusting MYSELF to know when I was being made a fool. Really, didn’t I already know to be wary of any club that would have me as a member?

          • Brian

            You know Richard, it would be a whole lot better to be able to discuss these matters, scripture etc face to face, the internet is good but not so good.

            • Richard Long

              Possibly. This medium serves me well as a buffer between expression of thought and force of personality. I promise my personal presence would pleasing to only a few of you and I’m sure Frances would have been hospitalized by now. If you had been following my exchange with Thinking, you might have guessed she has talked me off a ledge regarding a post that went too far to fast.

            • Richard Long

              … and notice how immediately following my expression of frustration with Frances, he has provided me with two very sound, thought provoking and mercifully concise comments. There is not enough threshing floor on earth to refine me sufficiently.

            • Francis Bencharles

              Talking to yourself now Richard?

            • Richard Long

              Thinking out loud, yes.

            • Richard Long

              Thinking out loud, yes

            • Richard Long

              thinking out loud, yes

            • Brian

              True, but I don’t know you so I can only take your word for it! : ) I know personalities can influence what people will accept but when discussing face to face it is so much easier to discuss and deal with the discussion in real time with everyone looking at the same reference material at the same time.

      • Jamie Mac

        Hi Richard, interesting word ecumenical. I have checked the definition. I would say the world wide preaching effort and the dismantling of the trinity and hell fire doctrines may fit the definition. If you were inferring only to the prophesy guessing game then yes your right.

        Interesting thought, it made me wanna look up the definition of ecumenical. Perhaps I have learned something new in the process. 🙂

        • Burt Reynolds

          Father Ted….’ That would be an ecumenical matter’. I hope things are looking positive for you Jamie re work. You’re not forgotten!

          • Jamie Mac

            Hi Burt, thanks for your support as always. I would be interested to know if you agree or disagree with my statement above to Richard.

        • Richard Long

          I was referring specifically to prophesy and generally for the dictatorial control they currently exert over our lives in the name of “keeping the organization clean” which began in earnest under Rutherford. Enlightenment on trinity and hell-fire predated any claim to be Gods spokesman, as the Bible Student’s were busy challenging Christendom’s claims of ecumenical authority arguing NO ONE had any. Would that they had just stopped there! lol

    • Richard Long

      I agree that Satan has been running the “long con” but I don’t understand why we insist he MUST be exiled from heaven to do it, as he has been permitted to come and go, freely opposing Jehovah throughout history. I expect his ouster more likely to coincide with the “hurrah” – the point at which the con either succeeds or fails. In other words, these last days as opposed to those last days.

      • Richard Long

        and notice how immediately upon using the term “i expect…”, i turned around and posted to Brian how our “expectations” are the source of much of our troubles.. How DO all of you put up with me?????

        • Arvid Fløysand

          Hehe.. Because you are honest 🙂

    • has the great tribulation begin yet? no.
      what coincides with the GT?
      the heavens being cleansed.
      does the GT last over a hundred years?
      no.

      wake up.

  • Brian

    Also, what about when Jesus arrives “will he find the faith” and as he approaches all of those that said they did wonderful things in his name but he disowns them for not “feeding” his brothers as they thought they were doing, do not JW’s think that they have among then exclusively the brothers of Jesus, Jesus also states that there are those that fed him/his brothers and they didn’t know they were doing so, but JW’s state that they are feeding them in their midst!?

    • Bklyn Kevin

      Brian I think you will enjoy reading these two articles.
      ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry?.
      Excerpt:
      Now consider the Governing Body, which as an institution, is presumably modeled after the apostles. Obviously, there is no comparison though. None of the present Governing Body have been imprisoned. None of them could possibly be aware of being “in dangers among false brothers” since that would require them to acknowledge that false brothers exist in the organization. And certainly none of them are “in hunger or thirst …in cold and lacking clothing.”

      However, Jesus said that the sheep and the goats will be judged based upon whether or not they attended to the needs of his spiritual brothers, who are imprisoned, hungry, sick and homeless.
      Read more> https://e-watchman.com/lord-when-did-we-see-you-hungry/

      “I am with you all the days” – and then what?
      Excerpt:
      Furthermore, if showing support for Christ’s brothers is as simple as going out in service, why did Jesus say that the sheep ministered to his brothers when they were sick, homeless, hungry, naked and in prison? Other than the illness that befalls us all, are Christ’s brothers going around naked, homeless and hungry now? Are any in prison? The answer is obvious. Read more>
      https://e-watchman.com/and-then-what/

      .

      • Brian

        Thank you for the links Kevin, they still don’t explain that the ones that are feeding Jesus actual brothers do not know they are doing it, they just treat everyone the same and just get on with doing it, but when you “capture” those brothers and think you are feeding them it would seem that Jesus on his arrival accuses those of not feeding them even though they thought they were! This goes back to them separating them out as an “exclusive” group and nurture that group, this seems as plain as day what is going on.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          I’m gonna do some research and let you know what I find just give me a couple of days.

          • Brian

            Yeah, no worries Kevin.

        • Bklyn Kevin

          More food for thought…
          The Brothers of Christ and the Two Witnsses.
          Excerpt:
          A spiritual Jew is one who is anointed. Jesus made that clear in his letters to the congregations in Revelation, where he spoke of those who claimed to be Jews, but who where lying. And those who are false to their calling as Jews are judged adversely, as Jesus said of the evil and sluggish slaves: “And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.”

          Now, as regards the judgment of “the Greek,” which is to say the sheep and the goats, those who are not anointed: They are judged afterwards, as the series of illustrations confirms. But here is the thing: Since the wicked and sluggish slaves have not been cast out yet, how can the righteous judgment of the sheep and the goats be based upon their giving or not giving

          assistance to those who only falsely claim to be brothers of Christ? Obviously, they cannot be judged fairly on that basis.

          The point is, it is only after the spiritual Jews are judged, that is when those Jews who are approved enter into the Kingdom and become accepted as full-fledged brothers of Christ —making them sons of God, the same as Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers. It is their acceptance as sons of God that will then bring about the phenomenon Paul referred to in the eighth chapter of Romans —the revealing of the sons of God. And when the full number of the sons of the Kingdom has been attained, then the Kingdom is complete. That is when Jesus will sit down on his throne —the resurrected holy ones with him.

          Then the revealing of the remaining chosen sons of God will be the basis for the judgment of the sheep and the goats. That is when the prophecy of Zechariah will be fulfilled, which states: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’

          Besides, as has been pointed out repeatedly, anointed witnesses are not presently suffering hunger, thirst, imprisonment or homelessness. Some may be ill but that is a normal human experience. It is after their acceptance into the Kingdom —that is to say, after they are sealed —that is when they will be persecuted —not only by the beast, but by their former brothers too, as Jesus foretold: “As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first. And when they are taking you to hand you over, do not be anxious beforehand about what to say; but whatever is given you in that hour, say this, for you are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is. Furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/brothers-christ/
          Also read >
          Doing good to the brothers of Christ. When?.
          https://e-watchman.com/doing-good-to-the-brothers-of-christ-when/

        • Richard Long

          Did not the articles point out that with said false parousia removed from the equation, and with no evidence supporting​ said caregiving having occurred to date, the events precipitating said adverse judgement by Jesus are yet future, in the real parousia?

          • Brian

            Yes in deed, my point here is that there are many people still clinging to beliefs associated with 1914, the adverse judgement coming if 1914 is a hoax is coming against all of those that are professing to be in union with Jesus which include still includes Christendom, It is the JW’s that have said Christendom was condemed way back in 1919, more lies. I know this does not sit well with people but one has to ask, when did they become condemned as JW’s think if we know 1914 is bollocks? It is a lot more ingrained and convoluted than people here are giving it credit for, it is a major deception going on but then again major deceptions have been getting played out since the death of the last apostle.

            • Beverly kenyon

              1914 is bollocks! Chuckling at that. ?

            • Brian

              🙂

            • Richard Long

              I am seeing the strength of your argument. If we but allow that the operation of error is the false parousia, which cropped up almost immediately when Russell et. al. “rediscovered” the truths of the divine name, trinity and hell-fire falsehoods circa 1874, 1914 becomes the snapping shut of the trap the demons set for the Bible Students.

            • Brian

              Hi Richard, yes, nothing like a false kingdom arrival to hoodwink many for generations, “He would mislead if possible even the chosen ones”!
              Yes, Russell didn’t discover anything that was not already there, maybe his heart was in the right place but we would certainly not know.

    • Francis Bencharles

      The Watchtower has also been quasi-feeding a lot of masqueraders too. Do you call what they serve food though?

      • Isaiah 28:8 = the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses.
        the WT being the organizational “mother” Jehovah will remove. Hosea 4:5

    • Richard Long

      While not arguing against your point, I must ask; If NOT exclusively or even mostly in the midst of organized JW’s, then WHERE are the brothers of Christ to be found? For that matter, outside of the apostate JW organization, WHERE IS ANY TRUTH WHATSOEVER? If the contemporary JW organization is not the apostatized nation of Jehovah’ personal possession, then one must conclude that Jehovah Himself is, at the least, uninvolved in human affairs or nonexistent, as is the unfortunate conclusion reached by Daniel Genser.

      If the world empires have been allowed their march in order to teach us with finality that there is no form of human governance that can even begin to satisfy the needs of humans, does it not follow regarding the remaining two elements of the adversary’s system? The full spectrum of false religion has been explored in totality and expressed ad nauseam to the end that even whole-hearted worshipers of Jehovah, as ourselves, conduct such worship falsely. The economic element likewise has been so grossly bastardized so as to demonstrate the folly and futility of converting resource to money with no lasting value bypassing the creation of goods of intrinsic value. Now consider the governance, religion and economy of Adam, the three elements combined in the simple act of walking daily in the garden with his Father, receiving instruction in it’s due time. Such will be the same for us, I believe, following the dissolution of the Millennial Kingdom/Priesthood. Is it not obvious by now that ALL AUTHORITY save Jehovah is counterfeit and corrupt, but He is still pleased to use it for our instruction if only because we ourselves seem to only accept corruption.

      Burt has previously expounded, and rightly so I believe, on the need for us to seek the truth in all it’s simplicity. We complicate, even distort, the truth by attempting to bend it to our expectations and as you, Brian, rightly point out, our expectations are a hot mess due to our proximity to the medium of the delusion, namely the apostate JW organization. Burt counsels focus on the journey of exploring and finding truth, not the destination of having truth, which I accept. You counsel extreme scrutiny of “understanding” provided by the WT, which I believe most here are earnestly engaged in, and I also accept. Thank you, both of you, for the willing exchange of information and viewpoint, and it is all stimulating and useful in my own quest for truth and also in regaining equilibrium post-delusion.

      Also, and I don’t know why sparked by your comment, but I am reminded of the many emblem partakers “in our midst” who being women, or even men of diminishing vitality, have been sidelined as teachers and administrators, relegated (as if it were a demotion) to teaching sisters and children, summarily dismissed by the “superfine apostles” as the potential future rulers and intermediaries and even avenging angels that their anointing indicates. Again, don’t know why, but this was the original thought I had in response to you comment, the above following on from it. Its perplexing to me, so I don’t expect you to understand or address it either.

      • the key is his name – https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

        Brian needs to accept this

        • Brian

          I don’t “need” to be told that I “need” to accept anything. Just because JW’s use Jehovahs name does not prove they are Jehovahs “people”. You believe that 1914 is false? If so there is no separation of sheep or goats, there is no gathering together of the “anointed”, there is no beast in power two horned or otherwise Etc Etc Etc. JW’s may or may not be doing a great job but the time has NOT come for them to be determined the exclusive good slave or the “faithful and discreet” slave”.
          Going back to using Jehovahs name, has not all things been given over to Jesus so that all should treat him as equal to Jehovah?

          • you mean when the CIA infiltrated the congragation of Jehovah’s witnesses and disguised themselvs as such didn’t automaticly make them a known servent to Jehovah?

            yeah 1914 is faults and that is the operation of error that opperates
            through the congragation of, guess
            who, Jehovah’s witnesses. 2-Thess ch2

            i understand that the org of JW’s, as
            Robert has even said in a video, are just another part of Christendom
            when it comes to the 1914 hoax
            (Hebrews 13:13 https://e-watchman.com/antichrist-coming/)
            but the delusional people swearing by the name of Jehovah aren’t the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, not Catholics, not Born Agains, etc etc. they are not under
            the delution the day of our lord is here like the Watchtower has lead
            Jehovah’s witnesses to believe.
            the man of lawlessness sits in the
            temple of Jehovah. would not his
            temple honored and displayed
            in his temple? yep.

            https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-people-name/

            https://e-watchman.com/name-jehovahs-witnesses/

      • Brian

        “Hi Richard, well for one I must say that you can present the written word much more eloquently than I can, I was always much better at physically repairing “thing” than academia.
        You ask where are Christ brothers to be found, maybe to answer that we should look at the depiction in Revelation of Satan flooding the earth to eliminate the “woman” and then going after the remaining ones of her seed, it would appear that he doesn’t know where they dwell (the real ones), why would you need to even flood the earth if the “organisation” has all of them in their midst?? I know this may sound simplistic but it is meant to be. It indeed the Kingdom didn’t arrive in what has been presented then those “pesky” Christendom congregations have not been judged or separated in any way, just because some people want to see it that doesn’t make it so, if you look at the original message (and it hasn’t changed) of “go out and make disciples” of all sorts of people would mean that if there is only going to 144,000 chosen of the called all others that are called but not chosen make for a confusion for Satan to sift them or at least that is benefit until the end, he has to potentially sift through millions of people to try and find the “real” chosen ones, we don’t know who they are and neither does he, so in short they are still in all of the “Christian congregations” or all of the groups around the world that profess unity and faith in Jesus. The tribulation is also to be seen as an instrument to sift to find the real anointed and chosen ones, it also to separate out all of the “called” ones form the world as the “great crowd” appears no time before this event and is a product of the general collection of people to a heavenly hope in the first instance and not collected before hand to produce a so called “great crowd” before the tribulation. Of course if one thinks the tribulation has come and gone you would be collecting a great crowd, this is not the case though. !914 pops its ugly head up again!!

        • Richard Long

          really gonna let this one rattle around awhiel

  • black curtain

    So whoever has his/her alarm clock set right, would you mind posting here and rousing the rest of us? So when the master arrives and says” hmmm will I find the faith” we can all yell out hey, look over here.

  • Darren Wilks

    I pray that the chosen ones are shown kindness and mercy by sinners and people that don’t know Jehovah.

    • Brian

      Well there is a reference to them, “forgive them father for they do not know what they are doing”, as Jesus brothers will go through the same tumultuous and agonising time as Jesus did this would apply to these also. I am not making excuses for them but someone has the unenviable job of undertaking this.

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    To my Dear Brother Robert King
    You said that from it’s very inception the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society taught that Jesus’ presence had begun in 1874. It was only after1933, that the Watchtower dropped 1874 and picked up 1914 as the date for Christ’s presence.That’s true and I agree that point. But can you or anybody post a copy of that Watchtower magazine (in the form of jpg image file) as an evidence mentioning 1874 as Christ’s presence? Because it will be easy for people like me to prove that WTS changed so that I can prove them that they are wrong and I can justify that even 1914 is also wrong because how can prophecies keep changing? How can dates change if it is really inspired by holy spirit? This will be great help for everyone.

    • Here is an outtake from the August 15, 1974 WT, page 506-7

      In 1877, Russell joined Nelson H. Barbour in publishing the book Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World. It indicated that the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 would be preceded by a forty-year period to open with a three-and-a-half-year harvest beginning in 1874 C.E. According to Bible chronology thereafter adopted, it was understood that 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth ended in 1872, whereas six millenniums of human sin concluded and the seventh millennium began in 1874. Christ’s presence was thought to have begun in October 1874, at the start of the great antitypical Jubilee.—Lev. chap. 25; Rev. 20:4.

      From that understanding, it was thought that the “chaste virgin” class began going forth to meet the Bridegroom in 1874. (2 Cor. 11:2) Hence, when C. T. Russell began publishing a new religious magazine in July 1879, it was called “Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence.” It was heralding Christ’s presence as having begun in 1874. This invisible presence was expected to continue until the Gentile Times ended in 1914, when the Gentile nations would be destroyed and the remnant of the “chaste virgin” class would be glorified with their Bridegroom in heaven by death and resurrection to live in the spirit. (1 Cor. 15:42-44) Thus would the “discreet virgin” class enter through the door into the wedding.

      The “chaste virgin” class endeavored to let their light shine as they approached the time when they expected to meet their Bridegroom in heaven. Finally, that day arrived—October 1, 1914. The Gentile Times ended, but the anticipated heavenly glorification of the church did not come about. In fact, it had not occurred by the time Russell himself died on October 31, 1916. Rather, great trouble and persecution came upon those desirous of meeting the Bridegroom. A climax was reached in the summer of 1918, when the Watch Tower Society’s new president, J. F. Rutherford, and seven other Christian men associated with headquarters were unjustly convicted and imprisoned.

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Thanks for your kind reply

      • Richard Long

        and it might have been nice or at least intellectually honest for the WT to tell us that Barbour, having experienced the “great disappointment” of the Millerites in 1843, should have known better.

        Robert, your firm resolve to eschew chronology as a predictive tool is one of the pillars of your authenticity. We just make fools of ourselves trying to know the one thing Jesus plainly no-one will know in advance. Russell’s hoodoo was just recycled Miller voodoo, which, if we look hard enough, will turn out to be someone else’s recycled doodoo.

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