Leaving the Watchtower

//Leaving the Watchtower

Commentary on the Watchtower Daily Text

Tuesday, October 3

Saul . . . spoke to Jonathan his son and to all his servants about putting David to death.—1 Sam. 19:1.

Because Saul was determined to kill David, Jonathan faced a conflict of loyalties. Although he had made a covenant with David, Jonathan was also submissive to his father. But Jonathan knew that God was with David and not with Saul. Therefore, Jonathan put loyalty to David ahead of loyalty to Saul. He warned David to hide and then spoke well of him to Saul. (1 Sam. 19:1-6) If we are not careful, loyalty to a nation, a school, or a sports team can eventually choke out loyalty to God. For example, Henry enjoys playing chess. His school had a tradition of winning the championship, and he wanted to put forth his best effort. But he admitted: “Gradually, loyalty to the school began to take priority over my loyalty to God. Weekend chess matches were crowding out my Kingdom service. So I decided to give up being part of the chess team.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses are going to be faced with the most extreme conflict of loyalties imaginable, something far beyond choosing between being on the school chess team or going out in service on Saturday morning. At some point in the not-too-distant future all will have to choose between loyalty to Christ or loyalty to the fading Watchtower.

First century Jewish Christians faced a similar test. That is why the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Hebrews —to prepare them to successfully  pass the test. In his epistle the apostle stressed the place Jesus occupies in God’s arrangement —having been appointed over Jehovah’s house. Paul went into great detail to explain how Christ has become the reality that the Law only foreshadowed. Christ has even become the high priest, even though he was not of levitical heritage. How could that be? –the Jews may have reasoned. Because, as is explained in great detail in Hebrews chapters 4-7, Christ became a priest according to the manner of Melchizedek. And the king/priest Melchizedek was a contemporary of Abraham —even before Jehovah made a covenant with Abraham to be the progenitor of the messianic seed, which means that being a priest according to Melchizedek does not depend upon lineage —but upon God’s calling. In this way Christ is legally qualified to be both king and high priest, which was not legal under the Mosaic system.

The point Paul was trying to get across to the Hebrew Christians, many of whom had become dull in their hearing and spiritual comprehension, is that the Jewish system had fulfilled God’s intended purpose and was near to being done away with completely. The reason Paul felt compelled to impress this upon the Hebrews is because many of them were still tied to Jewish traditions, such as the Sabbath and various festivals. No doubt some Jewish Christians scattered throughout the Roman world still made their pilgrimages to Jerusalem in accord with the Law.

Even Paul, upon being so advised by the apostles, offered up sacrifices at the temple on one occasion in order to quell the rumor that he was preaching an apostasy from Moses. So, we should not suppose that first century Jews who became Christians made a clean break from Judaism. It wasn’t that cut and dried. We know that to be true from the bitter fight Paul waged against the Judaizers who tried to force circumcision upon gentile believers.

But according to Jesus Jerusalem was ground zero for a looming desolation that would be unlike anything that has ever occurred before or will ever occur again. So, when Paul wrote his letter to the Hebrews around 60 C.E., he was preparing them to make a clean break from the holy city and the temple; from what the Jews viewed as Jehovah visible organization, which as Paul noted, had been entrusted with the sacred writings of God. That is why in the concluding chapter of his letter to the Hebrews Paul offered this exhortation: “Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people with his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city that remains, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses are going to be confronted with a similar test of faith. That is because we are nearing the end of a system. No, obviously not the Jewish system, but the Christian system —the entire system of things, also known as the era of Christianity. Up until now the Bible has served as our guide and tutor. And a Christian congregation has existed in recent decades, modeled after the first century congregation —shepherded by local elders and a central governing body and devoted to preaching and teaching in obedience to Christ’s command.

But just like the Jewish system, the Christian arrangement is only temporary. It is a means to an end. And like the former, it too will become obsolete and violently phased out of existence during the great tribulation. Prior to that horrific desolation Christians will be forced to flee from the modern “Jerusalem.” Here is the way Jesus expressed it: “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.”

In the instance of the Jews living in Jerusalem and Judea it was necessary for them to physically leave the area. That could present a problem if they were forced to flee on the Sabbath since the Jewish law prevented traveling on the Sabbath. They could be arrested and even stoned to death. But we should not suppose that the modern fulfillment will involve fleeing from a particular location. After all, Jesus said the tribulation is coming upon the entire inhabited earth. Where are you going to go?

Since those first century Christians would be forced to take up the reproach of Christ by going outside the camp —that is to say, making it publicly known they were breaking with the Jewish religion and way of life, the appearance of the disgusting thing in a holy place will impose a similar test of loyalty upon Jehovah’s Witnesses —the modern-day “camp” being the equivalent of the organization.

When Jesus advised his followers to consult the prophecy of Daniel regarding the disgusting thing to come, Jehovah’s Witnesses will likely assume Jesus was directing us the 11th chapter of Daniel, where the kings of the north and south are said to put in place the disgusting thing that will profane the sanctuary and the fortress and remove the constant feature.

The Watchtower attributes the profanation of God’s sanctuary by the king of the north to Hitler and the Nazis. Contradictorily, even though the 8th chapter of Daniel describes the very same event the Watchtower claims the British Empire fulfilled the prophecy during World War Two. And of course, neither interpretation harmonizes with Jesus prophecy of the disgusting thing that will bring desolation during the tribulation, which the Watchtower claims relates to the destruction of Babylon the Great.

Surely, just as many of the Hebrews had become dull in their powers of discernment, so too Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The truth is, the time of the end has not begun. The end of the Christian era is what is envisioned in prophecy with the removal of the constant feature. It means the preaching and teaching, yes, the heavenly calling itself, comes to an end. The earthly organization will have served it’s purpose. The Bible will have served it’s purpose. That is why it is called the time of the end. That is why the angel explained to Daniel: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.”

The end of the Christian era is a good thing. It will mark the beginning of the reign of Jesus Christ. No, not the kind of phony Kingdom rule that the Watchtower advertises, but the real thing. That is why the Bible itself will become obsolete because the reigning Christ will become the Wonderful Counselor. Then, new things will be revealed —including the revealing of the sons of God.

Isaiah speaks to the collapse of the Watchtower and the new light to come, where he says: “And on every tall mountain and on every high hill will be streams and watercourses, in the day of the great slaughter when the towers fall. And the light of the full moon will become like the light of the sun; and the light of the sun will become seven times stronger, like the light of seven days, in the day that Jehovah binds up the breakdown of his people and heals the severe wound from the blow he inflicted.” —Isaiah 30:25-26

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2017-10-03T12:14:39+00:00 October 3rd, 2017|Commentary|190 Comments
  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    Well explained. But WTS says that desolation and disgusting thing that will stand in the holy place is Christendom. The wts says the christendom claims to be holy. We can tell them. Will Jehovah ever consider holy as per people’s standard? Or holy place as per his own standards? If Jehovah is considering Christendom as holy place, then what about other religions because they are also a part of Babylon the great just as Christendom. The joke is will Jehovah ever consider the disgusting kajourah temple in Madhya Pradesh as holy place? One should ask such question to a jw who is telling that Christendom is s holy place in this way you can lock them.

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    For many JWS leaving Watchtower is a bitter matter. See in 70 AD majority Jews were killed by not abandoning the Jerusalem temple , but Christians who were few in number compared to Jewish population did. So are we to assume that only few jws who are enlightened will leave and majority will be killed by the eighth king? Please someone answer me scripturally.

    • The Raven

      I remember this discussion with Arvid a while back.

      Ezekiel
      5:1-17

      5 “As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword for yourself to use as a barber’s razor. Shave your head and your beard, and then take scales to weigh and divide the hair into portions. 2 You will burn a third of it in the fire inside the city when the days of the siege are completed.+ Then you will take another third and strike it with the sword all around the city,*+ and the last third you will scatter to the wind, and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+
      3 “You must also take a few strands of them and wrap them up in the folds* of your garment. 4 And take some more of them and throw them into the fire and incinerate them. From this a fire will spread to all the house of Israel.+
      5 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the middle of the nations, with lands all around her. 6 But she has rebelled against my judicial decisions and my statutes, acting more wickedly than the nations and the lands all around her.+ For they have rejected my judicial decisions, and they did not walk in my statutes.’
      7 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Because you were more troublesome than the nations all around you and you did not walk in my statutes or carry out my judicial decisions but, instead, you followed the judicial decisions of the nations all around you,+ 8 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am against you, O city,+ and I myself will execute judgment in your midst before the eyes of the nations.+ 9 I will do in you what I have never done before, and the likes of which I will not do again, because of all your detestable practices.+
      10 “‘“So fathers among you will eat their sons,+ and sons will eat their fathers, and I will execute judgment among you and scatter all the rest of you in every direction.”’*+
      11 “‘Therefore as surely as I am alive,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘because it was my sanctuary that you defiled with all your disgusting idols and with all your detestable practices,+ I will also reject* you; my eye will not feel sorry, and I will show no compassion.+ 12 A third of you will die by the pestilence* or perish in your midst by famine. Another third will fall all around you by the sword.+ And I will scatter the last third in every direction,* and I will draw a sword to chase after them.+ 13 Then my anger will come to an end, and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be satisfied.+ And they will have to know that I, Jehovah, have spoken in my insistence on exclusive devotion,+ when I have finished unleashing my wrath against them.
      14 “‘I will make you a devastated place and an object of reproach among the surrounding nations and in the eyes of everyone passing by.+ 15 You will become an object of reproach and scorn,+ a warning example and a horror to the nations around you, when I execute judgment on you in anger and in wrath and with furious punishments. I, Jehovah, have spoken.
      16 “‘I will send against them the deadly arrows of famine to destroy them. The arrows that I send will bring you to ruin.+ I will make the famine worse for you by cutting off your food supply.*+ 17 I will send against you famine and vicious wild beasts,+ and they will bereave you of children. Pestilence and bloodshed will overwhelm you, and I will bring a sword against you.+ I, Jehovah, have spoken.’”

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        So that means only few JWS will be saved

        • The Raven

          Robert’s been telling us this for years. They will only understand terror and the sword, famine and pestilence are the methods.

          • Isaac of Coimbatore

            Yeah I had gone through your comments terror and the sword, famine and pestilence are the methods will make them understand means, am I to assume that at-least JWs will make an exit? Dear Raven, tell me the answer directly.

            • The Raven

              The direct answer is some will get out when tribulation begins. These will not be immune to what’s going on in the world at the time but they will have the right condition of heart and recognize that Christ has REALLY arrived and the devil has REALLY been cast down. They will call upon Jehovah and He will hear them. They will recognize that they have been lied to and understand that their hope and faith cannot reside with an organisation become an idol any longer. Jehovah promised he would help us along. So all hope is NOT lost. We are also told not to be terrified, that this must all come to pass. The reactions from many will be borne out of their fear for having profaned His name and acted in an evil manner. Some will refuse to abandon their idol. But even those who were ignorant are not spared some punishment. Those of us who are not anointed aren’t immune from the horsemen’s toll but…those who do perish at their hands are in the common grave, Not Gehenna( the lake of fire and second death).
              Exact numbers; NO ONE knows. How could we ?
              The best I can tell you is that we are all passengers on this rock and we will all have to deal with this according to our hearts, faith and trust that Christ will do His Father’s will as we have been praying. I know you have taken that to heart from reading your comments.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Yeah I really took that because I always loved the truth.

            • The Raven

              I might also add that not all those who are saved will be found among them. Scripture also mentions other examples of those shown mercy. And we already know about the possibly hundreds of thousands who have been associated with the wts but are no longer active or never were admitted. That’s worth consideration, I believe.

        • The Raven
    • a third die from the wormwood

      • The Raven

        Hi DA. Yeah, that too. Robert explained it here. It’s a short answer to a question;
        https://e-watchman.com/many-will-stumbled/

        • “Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8

          • The Raven

            I’m sure he will if any of us are to survive. Scripture tells us many will. That’s comforting.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I’ve just read the article you recommended. Robert mentioned the parting of the ways of many JWs when Rutherford took the society in a ‘new direction’. It occurred to me: what direction was it going in before and where would it have been going? Previously, I had just looked upon the growth of the watchtower as an evolution of lie upon lie.

          • The Raven

            I have been going through some of the material Thinking gave me on Russell and here and there I’ve been looking at some on Rutherford. That’s a good question and I dont have answers to that. All of these folka are long gone and i wonder had they lived would they have adjusted their thinking ? Would they have been in agreement to what it has become? I just don’t know.

      • The Raven

        I’m glad you posted that. I sometimes forget about the book I get so wrapped up in articles and scripture. Lol.
        Thanks, DA. 😊

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        Thanx that’s what I was looking

  • Beverly kenyon

    Jesus said, ‘But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven’. Matthew 10:33 NLT

    That’s fantastic RK writing in the first paragraph the test of loyalty will be to the CHRIST and imo, the test of loyalty will also be for ALL denominations.

    ‘Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved’. Acts4:12 NIV

    ‘Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names’. Philippians2:9 Berean Study Bible.

    • Max

      Well said Beverly!

      • Beverly kenyon

        Hiya Max, how are you? Are you over the invasion of the tourists where you live after the ‘American eclipse’? I vaguely remember you posting something about it. Bet it was insane!

        • Max

          In Portland was not too bad, but the coast was full of people from all over the world. In Portland we didn’t see a full eclipse but it was dark and what amazed me was how fast the temperature went down. It got cold pretty fast. Can you imagine after a nuclear detonation? We would be probably cover in snow in no time due to the nuclear winter. I thought of that while watching the eclipse. Nice to read your comments Beverly you add a great inside to the discussion.

          • Richard Long

            Max, technically “nuclear winter” is caused by dust and ash and subsequent snowfall would depend on what amount of solar energy could penetrate the atmosphere to cause precipitation, which would become snow. But I know you know that and the imagery of your experience and its impression on you was not lost on me!

            • Max

              I did not know that! So the sun needs to go through the ash and dust to produce snow?

            • Richard Long

              the sun needs to penetrate the ash and dust to create heat to move warm air to clash with cold air to create friction to generate lightning to ionize water vapor in order to make it collect into heavier than air drops – precipitation. How high in the atmosphere and ambient temperature on the ground determine whether precipitation is snow or rain. Or something like that. I’m no meteorologist, but that’s how I’d explain it to my kid. Then I’d point to her room and say: “wikipedia”. Then she’d come back a half an hour later and explain to me just why and how big an idiot I am.

          • Beverly kenyon

            It sounds fantastic where you live. Is that Stephen King ‘country’? I used to read all his books then when I started studying with the JW’s I was told reading such horror books was dangerous and I was inviting demons into my home that way so I had to bin my whole collection along with any dodgy music by immoral artists! And of course like the diligent student I was, I complied with their ‘suggestions’. But in hindsight, it was good scriptural advice and I still apply it in my life. Suppose they were good for something. Lol.

            After a nuclear strike Max, most of us will be ‘toast’, literally! Oh, well, as a beautiful ex witness friend of mine says, ‘we made it through’. Straight to Hades!

            Oh, I don’t know about my ‘comments’ Max?! I believe the Word of God 100% but as for trying to get my points across coherently, I am definitely not confident. I’m not grammatically correct, I write as I speak, with a Manchester (Manc) accent, lol, and it’s only recently I’m writing in paragraphs, and no doubt getting it wrong. Ha! I’m hopeless! But I’ll give it a go! There are some amazing talking heads on this blog and I’ve learned SO MUCH from this blog which lead to me being catapulted straight into the ‘arms’ of Jesus Christ contrary to what some implied that, that happened because of Ray Franz book! Like I have time for that, having a job, caring for my child as she has problems and everything else….my spirituality. It would be great to just have the time to read a book but I’m not afforded that luxury Max.

            Great to hear from you Max and I also love to hear what you have to say in your posts.

            Christian Love. X

            • Max

              I think Stephen King comes from Maine. I’m from Oregon the west coast. Do not worry if you are grammatically correct or not Beverly a humble heart will always overlook the grammar and focus on the message. Just let your love of Jehovah and the truth shine through your posts we’ll all benefit from that.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Awww. Thank you Max. You’ve got a humble heart saying those words. I’d have to look on a map to see where you are Max as I don’t get the west coast thing but I do know America is ginormous! Maine is suppose to be famous for their trees in the autumn. I’ve seen pictures of it and it’s an explosion of a myriad of Autumn colours. Beyond beautiful! I work with the public and high maintenance and annoying isn’t in it, so I’m having to keep working on a humble heart and nobody likes a person who loses it and comes across as snotty and haughty! Please don’t let me be like that! Noooo. That’s horrific!

    • Arvid Fløysand

      So true…but since the whole world is condamned…where are those who put their faith in Jehovah and Jesus supposed to flee?
      Jesus himself advice us to flee to the “mountains”….so we are very interested in what, who ore where are those mountains?
      Good thing that Jesus is telling us to keep Daniels words in mind….
      And ofcourse…there is those two “mountains” 🙂
      Dan.2:28 “But there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets…”
      Dan.2:45 “just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands,….”

      This “mountain” is Jehovah`s kingdom in heaven…the “stone cut out of it is the kingdom of the Messiah/Jesus…he is the cornerstone…cut shaped out of His Father…He is the only one who is able to mirror the exact image of Jehovah…so what happens next with the stone cut ,not by hands,is no suprice…

      Dan.2:35 “But the stone that struck the image became a large mountain,and it filled the whole world.”

      So as we see..the first “mountain” is and has alwayes been…in heaven..that is Jehovah`s kingdom..
      Jesus teached us how to pray for this kingdom to come on earth as well as it is in heaven…(Matt.6:10)
      in order to restore and unite heaven and earth…all to be ruled in RIGHTEOUSNESS and PEACE and JOY with holy spirit (Rom.14:17)

      satans system of nations and organisations…all ruled by men…is very soon going to be crushed to “dust”…and will dissapear by the “wind”..
      Do not trust men…put all trust in the “mountains”…Jehovah and Jesus…they are the mountain/rock where we are supposed to “build” our “house” (Matt.7:24)

      We are in the age of the toes of satans image…and all 10 toes are “stinking”…
      It is really no good place for any human to stay and i wish every single human could do the same as all people in Niniveh did,in Jonah`s days…that would be awesome 🙂

      • Beverly kenyon

        Whoa, Arvid, your post is awesome! Recently, I’ve been saying that bit of the Lord’s Prayer in my head, the bit about asking for the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven and like you say, uniting both with HS. So I’m going to ask you straight out! Will Jesus Christ personally, himself, rule here on earth for the thousand years? So many questions I want to ask you Arvid. But you’ve made a somethings a lot clearer for me.

        Ha! I get it now about the ‘first mountain’. Totally used to just read past that bit, but there IS TWO ‘mountains’ the one in heaven and the one we pray for to be on earth. I get that! That’s fantastic!

        Yeah, we’re in the ‘stinking toes’ stage, and it really does stink to high heaven, excuse the pun that’s why the Father in Heaven is going to send the Son to get rid of the ‘bad smell’ as we’re sick of breathing in the noxious fumes.

        The Ninevites were cruel and bloodthirsty and prideful but they heard the incredible message from God that Jonah brought telling them of God’s judgement against them and they believed Jonah but sadly Arvid, most people be,I’ve in their own ‘power’ and there’s ones who have a form of Godly devotion but prove false to its power and there’s also ones who prefer to be cultivated, conditioned and brainwashed.

        • Arvid Fløysand

          Hello Beverly 🙂
          Norway is a kingdom…we got a very nice and humble king..he is also very interested in ordenery people,and love to visit every little corner of his kingdom….thanks to bridges it is possible for him to come on visit any time…

          Bridges connects and unite…

          Jehovah has already made a bridge between heaven and earth…

          It is not officially opend yet…the King Himself will be the one who declare it for opend 🙂
          He/Messiah…will be the first one to cross over on his own wedding day.
          His bride is standing waiting for Him on the other(earth) side…that will be a moment of greatest joy and deep emotions…

          This “bridge” is fixed in those two sollid “mountains”…one in heaven and one on earth.

          If a human king are fond of using bridges to travel around and visit his people…how much moore dont you think Jesus the Messiah would love to?

          By marriage we will become family …the humans and the angels…there is going to be a much closer relationship between heaven and earth…we are all children of Jehovah God…His ofspring and family…He love his family…sadly some struggle to see it in order to love Him back…

          So yes…i belive the greatest and most loving King ever will come and visit His people every now and then…and together with His “wife”
          I imagine a lot of wonderful gatherings…even better than the gathering on the mount of olives,because by then the whole world is a fantastic paradise 🙂

          Maybee 144 001 gatherings at same time all around the world..and the one teaching is one from the “bride” ore Jesus Himself…all of them acting in the most loving manner…able to give attension to every single listener,just like Jesus used to do..
          Remember Martha,Mary and Lazarus how happy they used to be when Jesus came on visit…that i think how it is going to be like for every single person living in the paradise earth…Jesus and all who belong to the “bride”…best friends coming on visit from time to time…telling good news and thrilling things 🙂

          “Look! The tent of God is with mankind,and He will reside with them,and they will be His people.And God Himself will be with them:”…Rev.21:3

          • Max

            Wow, how beautiful you made me travel to the New World! I can’t wait for that to happen!!! May Jehovah help us all to be there and sheer the King and the bride. Thank you for the beautiful story! You really know how to write brother!

            • Arvid Fløysand

              If we really love Jehovah and all humans…even your enemy..
              than the “door” Himself will open for us to enter that wonderful future…He did it for the one hanging beside Him when He gave His life for all this to happen 🙂

          • Beverly kenyon

            Gotta go collect my girl but can’t wait to come back quickly and read this post of yours Arvid. Sooooo excited!

          • Beverly kenyon

            Love it Arvid! Absolutely! I remember, ages ago, you mentioned Jacob’s Ladder and you gave a clue in line with what you’ve written and I kept thinking about what you said. But I wasn’t getting a clear picture then I thought of the ‘tent of God’ in Revelation and had a feeling God would actively through his Son be with us here on earth. Also,I came across a respected bible scholar who insisted that yes, Jesus was coming back but that he would literally be ruling here on earth, physically so there I was, weighing up all these thoughts and now you’ve given me a clearer picture.

            It looks like these things are going to be beyond our wildest dreams but reading about the human Christ in the Gospels we can get a real idea. And yes, we are all God’s children, one human family and he still lives up to his responsibility as a parent and he wants us to understand our future and understand his instructions to us through his word the Bible and Jesus himself promised he would ask the Father for another Helper, Holy Spirit that would be with his followers FOREVER!

            ‘And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever’. John14:6 ESV

            Hate to be a nuisance Arvid with my incessant questions but I’m having problems with the anointed, 144,000 teaching. I’ve read Romans 8 but I’m just not buying it. Apart from the basic Bible teachings I was taught it’s like I’m relearning and questioning EVERYTHING I just blindly accepted as truth because ‘they were God’s people’ right? They knew everything in the Bible. I was just a ‘worldly’ person trying to put away my wicked ways under their tutorship.

            I’ll keep digging on the ‘anointed’ teaching and hopefully I’ll get a proper understanding. Hopefully, it’ll ‘go straight into my brains’ as Isaac puts it.

            Thank you Arvid for your wonderful post.

          • Thinking

            One of the annoited sisters died here..and I have no reason to beleive she wasn’t..she saw things discussed here..but kept them to herself…she was different…anyway her son whom she was so very close got caught up with a bad crowd and ended up having to attend her funeral in prison overalls and handcuffed with two prison guards by his side…it was very sad…but he didn’t want to live anymore as he would never see his mum again as she would be in heaven….
            .
            I explained about Jacobs ladder…and how loving Jehovah was…and the incredible surprises we have in store that the brothers no nothing about …now I can paint him an even better picture after your post..
            We really have no idea of how wonderful and the sheer magnificence of what lies ahead….and what Jehovah and Jesus intends and plans for us
            Thanks for a lovely post Brother

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hehe..you are so right sister,about the incredible surprises we have in store that we know little and nothing about 🙂
              Indeed wonderful things for sure 🙂

              Imagine if fetus …in this case twins…could speak to eacother…
              They are placed in their loving mothers womb and has already been there for 8 months and tree weeks..
              Inside the womb is the only world and life they know of..

              One twin sayes to the other: I have been thinking about how our life will be in near future…i got a strong feeling that we are going in for some serious big changes in our life..

              really?the other twin replyes…and ask: what kind of big changes do you have in mind?

              The first twin continue and say : I belive we have to prepare for a short but difficult event where we have to struggle and maybe feel that we have to leave this place in a hurry

              You must be totally out of your mind…the other twin sayes,and continue:
              There is nowhere else to go…dont you see?
              We are totally safe here and i intend to stay,nothing can make me leave .

              The first twin agree that they alwayes have had good reasons to feel safe and comfort inside their mothers womb…and goes on : We both know how much our mother loves us and care for us and provide us with all our needs…we can even hear her voice…somtimes singing to us and speaking about how she looks forward to see us…i alwayes wondered about how we are going to see her…maybee there will be to see in a better way than we are able to in this life?
              I belive we will come into a totally new beautyful world ,right after the short time of struggle …there will be light and colours..we will se and hear our mother in a new and much better way than ever before…a totally new world and new life …maybe we do not need to be feed like this but be able to eat by our self ?

              But how and when should this happend? the other twin sayes.
              Where would you go? there is nowhere else to go!

              The first twin continue : I do not know for sure but i put all my trust in our mother because she is bigger than us and loves us…
              I am sure we will know when it is the right time to move on…i really do got this feeling that our mother will give us a signal and then we must be ready to go…do not be afraid…if you want to we can hold hands and go together…:-)

            • Richard Long

              Such wisdom, Arvid!

              Now please state directly, for the most entrenched of us, which twin should be made to feel ashamed for their mindset before and after this conversation and which one should expect to be rejected by the Father because of theirs?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              They are both going to be born and loved….As you know twins have a strong connection to eacother…”the former things have passed away.And the One seated on the throne said :Look! I am making all things new .” Rev.21:4-5 🙂
              Soon all disagreements will fade away and forgotten

              Lets “hold hands” …love all humans and hate only what Jehovah and Jesus hates..

            • The Raven

              Very nicely said, Arvid.

            • Richard Long

              AMEN! And thank you Arvid!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think you and I are going to have a difficult birth Richard. In fact, listening to others here, it may well be octuplets or ‘womb’ for even more!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Good analogy . Actually one of the best I’ve heard. Have you been reading Tove Jannson!?

            • Arvid Fløysand

              Hi Burt…i have not been reading that book…if its a book thou..:-)
              The name sounds like a nordic name…Sweedish?
              There is a famous sweedish recipe called Janson`s frestelse …it is very easy and simple,made of fried fish and potatoes and onion…all cut in tiny pieces…fried in butter and with a little bit of salt and pepper 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              Tove Jannson was a Fin. She wrote the Fin Family Moomintroll books, that have kept my children enthralled well into their adulthood. We used to make games out of the characters, like the Groke.

          • Nigel

            Really enjoyed your comments Brother Arvid.

            This is just an observation I made earlier this year:

            Out of 25 different translations that I checked, 22 of them translate Revelation 5:10 as God’s kings & priests ruling ON earth. For example, the KJV:

            “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

            …which seems to dovetail nicely with Revelation 21:2, which describes New Jerusalem (the Bride of the Lamb) “coming down out of heaven”, and of course, Rev 21:3 which you quoted…

            • Craig Knight

              Nigel – Hi! Most translations say on or upon the earth but some say over the earth. This must be a transliteration problem not a correct translation of that verse. Read Revelation 21: 15 thru to the end. It says God and Christ will rule in Jerusalem. If humans can’t see God and yet live it cannot be a literal earthly Jerusalem. Check out my reply to Beverly.

              Weymouth New Testament
              And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth.”

              Darby Bible Translation
              and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

              Aramaic Bible in Plain English
              “And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”

            • Nigel

              Thanks Brother Craig. I’m about to get some sleep but I’ll look endeavour to look into it again asap, including your suggestion to read Rev 21:15-> and your reply to Sister Beverly as well…

            • Craig Knight

              Ok get a good rest. Check out Rev ch 17 to see if BTG fits the WT? I don’t think it does.

            • Richard Long

              And for the record, neither do I 😎

          • Craig Knight

            Arvid Hi! I think that the angels at some point might communicate with us but only after the final testing when Satan is released and then finally destroyed. At that stage we will then be perfected and then God will speak to us like He did Adam in the garden. But during the 1,000 year reign we still need Christ’s ransom to forgive our sins until the 1,000 years end. God residing with men is again symbolic not literal. After the 1,000 years are passed and the Devil is removed forever then we might visit with the angels etc…but not until we are all perfected. Just my view on that.

        • Craig Knight

          Hi Beverly! I’d like a shot at your question – So I’m going to ask you straight out! Will Jesus Christ personally, himself, rule here on earth for the thousand years?

          Here’s a few scriptures that might answer that question. 1 Cor 15: 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man. 50 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

          2 Tim 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

          Why would God raise Jesus to rule in heaven with the anointed ones only to send them all packing back to earth? However there are some verses in Revelation that seem to say Jerusalem comes to the earth. So I can understand why people might think that. Rev 1: 1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2
          I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

          And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

          The last verses of Revelation vs 15 -27 show that new Jerusalem is symbolic and it’s located in heaven unless you believe that this city will be literally made with gold and precious stones and there won’t be sun or moon etc…seems pretty clear that Jerusalem is heavenly and the language is symbolic.

          15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubitsd thick. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.f 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

          22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

          Does that make sense to you? Vs 22 says that God and Christ are the temple but no man can see God and live! So in my opinion it has to be symbolic.

          • Arvid Fløysand

            Can angels visit earth and humans “dressed” in a human body?
            You know they have done that many times…will that never happen again?
            Not only so but angels have also visit earth and humans many times …will that never happen in the future?
            If there has been so many important visits from heaven before heaven and earth is united…is it resonable that when all things is united by Jehovah thru Jesus Christ…than all visible contact between heaven and earth will for ever be done with?

            I am sure you know how a loving father take care of his own children…
            This is how Jehovah is…He are able to be whatever He needs to be for His own children 🙂

            • The Raven

              There has to be some way for heaven to communicate with us. There must be guidance and instructions given to us throughout the millenium. How that occurs is anyone’s guess but you are correct that we have plenty of evidence from scripture which tells us how Jehovah directed folks before. With Christ and his bride ruling it’s not a stretch to say the angels will interact with humanity . After all, they are the ones who sort us out. Why would Christ leave us up to our own devices after all that? He wouldn’t. I can still imagine we can get up to all sorts of trouble unless someone of divine nature schools us or grabs us by the ear. Lol!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Well yes! It does not belong to man to direct even his own footsteps. If I recall correctly, there is no reference there to the past and present imperfect condition that man was in…I.e., that not being able to direct our own footsteps was a result of Adam ( though it may be. I don’t know. But from here, I can guess we never had self direction built into us, but that in itself, does not nullify freedom of choice). Is there any reason why, in the future, Angels and mankind, Jesus and Jehovah cannot be a family and all that such implies? Again, I don’t know, but it’s a pleasant situation to contemplate. I often entertain the dream of being in my garden about the breezy part of the day, with the animals, my family and then….,suddenly, the voice of Jehovah….’how is your day Burt?….’ What more could there be?

            • The Raven

              That’s a really nice thought. I’ll be sailing to lands I’ve never seen, I hope.

            • Craig Knight

              Oh sure! I totally agree that the angels will come and go and It’s going to be more than amazing. All I was trying to say is that it won’t happen until the Devil is gone and we are perfected. This means after the 1000 years are over and Jesus hands back the kingdom to Jehovah. Even tho the Christian age will be over, we still need a ransomer until we reach perfection. Then even God will speak to us like He did Adam. Now that’s something to look forward to for sure!!!

            • Richard Long

              “All I was trying to say is that it won’t happen until the Devil is gone and we are perfected. This means after the 1000 years are over and Jesus hands back the kingdom to Jehovah.”

              This assumes a premise not in scripture. It can certainly be argued that a higher concentration of earthly visitation by materialized spirits might be required to provide guidance during this period of restoration than after it has been completed.

              “Even tho the Christian age will be over, we still need a ransomer until we reach perfection.”

              This assumes a premise still very much under debate as to when the ransom is applied, embodied in the concept of “justification” and it can certainly be argued that had the ransom not already been applied upon the glorified Christ’s resurrection and return to heaven, not one human including the anointed could make approach to Jehovah other than through the Law.

              “Then even God will speak to us like He did Adam. Now that’s something to look forward to for sure!!!”

              Exactly! But still neither a defense nor a challenge to either of the other two premises.

              Exegesis, not eisegesis. In the words of the band Chicago, “It’s a hard habit to break”. Certainly has been/is for me!

            • Craig Knight

              Ok Richard let’s try it this way. Here is Revelation Ch 17 – How would you answer these questions?

              Revelation 17:1 1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

              Q: How did WTS intoxicate the inhabitants of the earth with their UN involvement?

              There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries

              Q: Purple and Scarlet are colors belonging false religious leaders in Jesus day. So this could apply to WTS.

              6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

              Q: How has WTS become drunk with the blood of God’s holy people and those who bore testimony to Jesus? Has the WTS murdered people for preaching?

              The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

              Q: How does the WTS sit on 7 hills or world powers?

              15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

              Q: How does WTS rule over the kings of the earth according to vs 18?

              There is a problem with this idea of BTG being the WTS. Let’s hear your brand of Exegeses.

            • Richard Long

              “Revelation 17:1 1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

              Q: How did WTS intoxicate the inhabitants of the earth with their UN involvement?”

              A: Don’t quite see the UN mentioned there, Craig, but the answer to your question is “To Be Determined”, the clock has not run out, as John’s vision was for events happening IN THE LORD”S DAY, ie during the parousia. WT false parousia delusion got you again.

              Can we say this most recent UN/OSCE dalliance is the only first or only time the WT has done the nasty with any of the kings of the earth? I’d sit at bc’s feet and listen for a while before I answered.

              “There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries

              Q: Purple and Scarlet are colors belonging false religious leaders in Jesus day. So this could apply to WTS.”

              A: In our day, the description of an influential, successful whore is somewhat different. It usually sounds something like Armani suits, Rolex watches, and country estates with prestigious addresses like One Kings Road. But still, you are falling back to the WT eisegesis that the parousia is already upon us, its beginning already an ancient event of 102-142 years ago, Same answer: yet TBD.

              “6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

              Q: How has WTS become drunk with the blood of God’s holy people and those who bore testimony to Jesus? Has the WTS murdered people for preaching?”

              A: Again, a question based on a faulty premise of judgement past, but, even so, as an ecclesiastical body exercising ecumenical authority over its adherents, the WT will answer for all blood, not just martyred preachers. This may include those voluntarily forfeiting their lives unnecessarily or convincing their children to, at the “suggestion” of WT doctrine still in a constant state of fluidity. WHAT IF it turns out God approves of blood transfusion.

              Regardless, the answer is I cannot possibly say what the WT WILL YET DO before the clock runs out on the Christian era, but the child abuse cover up and victim persecution doesn’t, shall we say, “trend well”.

              “The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

              Q: How does the WTS sit on 7 hills or world powers?”

              A: How does BTG? My first response is “lap dance”, but I perceive you fail to miss my point completely. WT is not the whole of BTG, and I certainly have not said it is. WT is very small vine of Christian sect planted in very large vineyard of Christendom, which is located in “Napa Valley” of other large vineyards with names like Buddhism, Islam, Shinto, ect, that DURING THE PAROUSIA will be identified as a composite whore, BTG. If we need to put things in scale, currently WT is a wart on Christendom bum, but formed from her DNA, none the less.

              “15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

              Q: How does WTS rule over the kings of the earth according to vs 18?”

              A: Same faulty premise as the rest, still TBD in the future.

              “There is a problem with this idea of BTG being the WTS. Let’s hear your brand of Exegeses.”

              15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

              Q: How does WTS rule over the kings of the earth according to vs 18?

              “There is a problem with this idea of BTG being the WTS.”

              A: There is absolutely a problem with this idea, and if you think I ever said that BTG is the WTS, I object! Kindly show me where I said it, if I did, so that I may correct it.

              “Let’s hear your brand of Exegeses.”

              A: This was an example of WT inculcated sniping superiority and I forgive you for it. Exegesis has a definition and I intend to conform to it if ever I undertake interpretation of scripture. Whereas I am in this instance engaged in commentary on the interpretations of others, nether exegesis nor eisegesis applies, but both definitions are provided for you.

              exegesis
              [ek-si-jee-sis]
              Spell Syllables
              Examples Word Origin
              See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
              noun, plural exegeses [ek-si-jee-seez] (Show IPA)
              1.
              critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.

              eisegesis
              [ahy-si-jee-sis]
              Spell Syllables
              Word Origin
              noun, plural eisegeses [ahy-si-jee-seez] (Show IPA)
              1.
              an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter’s own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

              As for my observations or commentary, only you can decide if they are worth to you what you have paid for them.

              As Brothers,

              RL

            • Beverly kenyon

              ‘The weapons of the war we’re fighting are not of this world but are powered by God and effective at tearing down the strongholds ERECTED AGAINST HIS TRUTH’. 2Corinthians 10:4. The Voice bible.

              Black Curtain mentioned the above scripture the other day Richard….the strongly entrenched things, NWT…….and I kept thinking how true those words are as some of us are fighting to ‘unlearn’ the man made doctrines we were taught and drilled into our heads. But our weapons of ‘war’ are powered by God and will tear down those deeply entrenched things as the TRUTH of God’s Word wins every time!

            • Thinking

              Really good post and reasonings…

            • Craig Knight

              Richard – read Robert’s article and see how the WTS fits into BTG.

              BTG: KINGS ARTICLE

              Therefore, Babylon the Great cannot represent the Roman Catholic Church, America, or any other nation or single religion. The reason is because the five fallen kings that were dominated by the harlot existed before Christ, and long before the Vatican or the United States ever came on the scene.

              So what does Babylon the Great really represent? It represents what the Watchtower has said all along. Babylon the Great symbolizes the world empire of false religion. That is all organized religion with the exception of the true faith of Jesus Christ. How may we be sure?

              Another similarity between the two Babylons is that they are described as using sorcery and spiritism. For instance, Isaiah 47:9 foretells that Jehovah’s judgment will come upon Babylon, “for the abundance of your sorceries, for the full might of your spells exceedingly.” Likewise, Revelation 18:23 says of Babylon the Great: “For by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled.”

              In modern history, the Anglican Church has been the official consort of the British Empire. While the United States’ official policy is that there must be no state religion, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant religions exert a very powerful influence over the American political system.

              Appropriately, the official religion of the United Nations, is the new age religion for the New Order, which, in reality, is merely a conglomeration of all of the previous religions of the empire—and then some.

              Much has been written about the occult publishing company of Lucis Trust, formerly Lucifer Trust, which apparently has a powerful, spellbinding influence over the United Nations bureaucracy. Such an unseemly connection exemplifies the occultish, satanic influence that Babylon the Great is capable of exerting over powerful men and political institutions. So it follows that modern babylonish adepts still use sorcery and spiritism to mislead mankind. One notable aspect of Babylon’s religion was that it featured triads of gods and demons. Most prominent among the Babylonian pantheon was the trinity composed of Anu, Bel and Ea. Another triad consisted of Shamash, Sin and Ishtar. From Babel the trinity was taken into Egypt in the form of the gods, Osiris, Isis and Horus. To this day, the ages-old Hindu religion has retained the babylonish triad. Christendom’s nonsensical and unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity gives evidence that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are also the immoral offspring of their babylonish mother, which is why Babylon the Great is called “the mother of the harlots.”

              Astrology also played an important role in babylonish religion. At Isaiah 47:12-13, Jehovah taunts and challenges the stargazers and soothsayers to divine the future. It reads: “Stand still, now, with your spells and with the abundance of your sorceries, in which you have toiled from your youth; that perhaps you might be able to benefit, that perhaps you might strike people with awe. You have grown weary with the multitude of your counselors. Let them stand up now, and save you, the worshippers of the heavens, the lookers at the stars, those giving out knowledge at the new moons concerning the things that will come upon you.”

              By making reference to Babylon’s youth, Jehovah was apparently referring to the post-Deluge beginnings of Babel and its ignominious founder Nimrod. It seems that an entire mythology was built around the relationship of Nimrod with Semiramis his mother, so that after his death Nimrod was deified as the Sun god and his mother became the Queen of the heavens. Thus, from the very beginning, before Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylonian Empire, the Chaldeans ‘toiled from youth’ to create a system of worship based upon myth, divination, astrology, superstition and magic.

              Another aspect of the religion of Babylon the Great is that according to Revelation 18:7, she has “glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury.”

              Living in “shameless luxury” certainly describes the phony religious system of modern Babylon the Great. The Catholic Church, being one of the most powerful and prominent segments of modern false religion, is conspicuous in this respect and certainly fits the description of living in shameless luxury. As one of the wealthiest institutions in the world, the Church stands in stark contrast to the hopeless poverty of so many of the peoples of the world that she has exploited.

              Not much needs to be said concerning the well-known and highly publicized shameless begging and opulent lifestyles of numerous televangelists, who have exploited gullible minds with a so-called prosperity doctrine. Also, in recent years the media has also thrown light on the fabulously wealthy Mormon Church. Many of Babylon the Great’s traveling merchants of religion, whether popes, gurus, swamis, rabbis, Protestant clergy, or Islam’s mullahs, have been the “top-ranking men of earth,” as Revelation 18:23 describes, and as such, they are often richly rewarded for their services to the great harlot.

              THE BLOOD OF ALL THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERED

              Another similarity between ancient and modern Babylon is that the religious leaders are agents for fomenting war. According to Revelation 18:24, Jehovah God holds false religion directly responsible for all of the deaths that have occurred in warfare. And true to Jehovah’s judgment, history verifies that religious fanaticism and cleric political involvement is often used to manipulate men into killing one another. The Crusades, horrific Inquisitions, Hundred Years war, plus the World Wars of the 20th Century, which were fought in the heart of what is known as Christendom, proves beyond any denial that the denominations claiming to be Christian are really part of Babylon the Great.

              The Vaticanu secretary of state, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (the future nPope Pius XII), and Germany vice chancellor, Franz von Papen, formallyn signed a concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich on July 20, 1933 The Vaticanu secretary of state, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII), and Germany vice chancellor, Franz von Papen, formallyn signed a concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich on July 20, 1933

              And when religion is not directly involved in warfare, it often gives tacit approval by abdicating its moral authority. For example, it is charged that had the Pope of Rome used his authority to speak out against Hitler and the Holocaust, many lives could have been saved and perhaps the entire course of history could have been changed for the better. (Pope wants to erase Nazi ties to Church).But Jehovah’s judgments against Babylon the Great have not taken place yet, so apparently her sins have not yet amassed clear up to heaven, as Revelation describes. That being the case, evidently Babylon is not through promoting the slaughter of mankind. Indeed, the world is presently careening towards the so-called Clash of Civilizations that global seers have envisioned, which has the potential of being the greatest slaughter that has ever occurred in mankind’s bloody history. Not uncharacteristically, the world’s major religions are situated at ground zero.

              It should be of more than passing interest to us that fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Christians are all deeply involved in the world’s present Middle East and India-Pakistan crisis. While, in the West, Islam is typically portrayed as the chief warmongering culprit, others rightly charge the Christian Fundamentalists sects as being every bit as culpable and dangerous as the Islamist associated with terrorism. In the wake of 9-11, Christian fundamentalists have shamelessly fanned the flames of anti-Islamic hatred, thereby setting the stage for the coming slaughter of innocents in the name of Jesus.

              Unquestionably, Zionism is the root cause of contention that has pitted Islam against Christendom and Israel and which has now brought the entire global civilization to the brink of World War Three. In the recent destruction of Iraq, whereby some estimate the Iraqi death toll now exceeds 1,000,000, far more than were killed by the deposed Iraqi dictator, in America the ignorant masses of evangelicals were the political foot soldiers that made the war possible.

              Because Zionism is itself a product of 19th Century British geo-political intrigue and the occult, it is apparent that Christendom is a compliant Mistress in allowing herself to be used to give biblical credence to such modern mythology as Zionism.

              True to prophecy, it is evident that by her spiritistic practice all nations are being misled into becoming bloodguilty before God.

              But, besides lending support to general and religious warfare, Babylon the Great is specifically charged with persecuting and murdering Jehovah’s prophets and holy ones. Revelation 18:24 says in full: “Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

              And when religion is not directly involved in warfare, it often gives tacit approval by abdicating its moral authority. For example, it is charged that had the Pope of Rome used his authority to speak out against Hitler and the Holocaust, many lives could have been saved and perhaps the entire course of history could have been changed for the better. (Pope wants to erase Nazi ties to Church)

              But Jehovah’s judgments against Babylon the Great have not taken place yet, so apparently her sins have not yet amassed clear up to heaven, as Revelation describes. That being the case, evidently Babylon is not through promoting the slaughter of mankind. Indeed, the world is presently careening towards the so-called Clash of Civilizations that global seers have envisioned, which has the potential of being the greatest slaughter that has ever occurred in mankind’s bloody history.

              How does any of this fit in with the WTS??????????

            • Richard Long

              You are attributing to me an argument I have never made, Craig. Please sit on this for a few days and let my ACTUAL words appear on the page.

            • The Raven

              How are we supposed to come to perfection without divine guidance? What happens during the thousand years ? How do we get instruction and from who? I would think the angels would be Christ’s messengers during the thousand years.

            • Craig Knight

              Well I always thought that was what the new scrolls were all about but it could be very possible that the angels are used. It’s an exciting thought and as usual you bring me good things to reflect upon. I just always assumed we weren’t worthy of angelic help until we reached perfection. But I am open to all ideas and that’s a nice one. I am struggling with this BTG thing. I just don’t see that God’s temple can be a part of BTG. See my questions I sent to Richard about Rev chapter 17.

            • Thinking

              Yeah i cannot see how it can be part of BTG either…so much goes back to the pattern of how he treated his people of the past and to how his people treated him or they …Jehovah /Jesus….
              Jehovah wanted to wipe them out in the wilderness and start again with Moses off spring but Moses interjected and reasoned with Jehovah that he couldn’t do that..because it would not look good for Him…that he couldn’t look after his own people…that he had led them out of slavery to just destroy them in the wilderness…
              I guess it could appear we have become like BTG?….but going from Jehovah’s eyes….we are still HIS HOUSE…HIS PEOPLE…even if once again we become worse than nations around us….I’m sure there are many religions ..faiths etc that are far better than we…absolutely…much kinder than us as a people…with all our rules and regulations…

              And he will have a reckoning with us because of that…

              As far as angels comimg down In The New World …New System..yeah I can see that because it was a pattern laid out…but I’m with you as far as reaching perfection before connecting back up with Jehovah in the New System like he did with Adam,,.
              Because that’s the pattern laid down In The scriptures..

            • Richard Long

              Hi thinking,

              Just need to interject with an invitation to review my commentary to see if I EVER said the WT = BTG, because this is the idea Craig is is running with. I’m now in the position of having to forget everything I wrote and start supporting the argument he is making against what he THOUGHT I said.

              Blessings,
              RL

            • Thinking

              Hello Richard 😀
              No I don’t think Craig thought you said it equals BTG..but I might be presuming his thoughts here…I presumed you were saying they were part of BTG….well that how I read it…so no need to rewrite anything…a few here think as you do..I see it much more simply than many here…

              Jehovah has a house that have become corrupted ..probably bigger than we realize at this time and he has to deal with his house and discipline it to the degree he sees fit…BUT HE STILL SEES IT AS HIS HOUSE

              Then and only then can he turn his attention to the nations ….

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think you thoroughly thought thoughtfully Thinking thinking those thoughts through. I agree…..after thinking about it Thinking. Thanks.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Ha ha. Good luck with that one Richard. I too thought you thought Craig’s thoughts thoughtful and that Thinking thought those thoughts through, thinking you had thought thoroughly wrong Craig’s thought was rightly thought through. At least that’s what I think Thinking thought you thought but now I see you are rethinking what Craig thought that Thinking agreed to and thinking that thought through again.

            • Thinking

              Hahah…okay thinking is not thinking anymore..lol..in fact thinking is so confused she needs a drink…which must mean she’s in a really bad way as thinking doesn’t even remember she doesn’t drink..hahah…good to have a laugh…

            • Daisy

              Life gets tedious, doesn’t it brother 🙂 good you can keep track of your own mind lol. Not so easy when you’re closer to eighty y.o than 70 like me, its hard keeping track , so keep on keeping on dear Richard… with love Daisy.

            • Craig Knight

              I believe it’s safe to say the Jehovah used the Org starting with Russell to teach basic scriptural truth’s to the world including making God’s name known. But mixed in with that is a lot of falsehood. But whether or not they fit in as a part of BTG we will have to wait until the real parousia to find out I think. I also think God has used men like Martin Luther to get people away from the Roman Catholic church and Constantine’s lies. The reformation brought about a huge change to the Christian world. God uses who He will to get his name and purpose known. But He also punishes those He uses if they deserve it. This is something only Christ can determine.

            • The Raven

              Why would we need help after we reach perfection? It’s the process that will require all hands on deck. Jesus Christ and His Brothers and the angels all will deal with us in different capacities. After Armageddon we walk in to the new earth. Then what? Need info. Also when the dead begin to return. They too need info. What do we do? What does Christ need us to do on our way to perfection. etc. That’s the job the bride has in dealing with us as well. Correction when needed and encouragement as well. Isn’t that cool?
              I’d hate to wonder whether I’m doing ok or not. Surely they will let me know.

            • Burt Reynolds

              If I recall correctly, Jesus prayed for help often from his father. Help is not correction always, or a sign of imperfection. Sometimes just a squeeze of the hand is help enough.

            • The Raven

              Good point. But I’m going to need a good bit of help before that. The returnees…oh boy. I don’t worry but I do wonder about that.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Quite right. I have a bone of contention with my ancestor from 1531 who really fouled up our family heritage.

            • The Raven

              Lol! I guess we all have one or two that make us wonder. In fact I think I may be one! Haha!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I think if I had died and then woke up in a healthy body in what appears to be the next instant, into a world without fear and with angelic intervention, I might just be a little restrained in what I do and say, lest it all goes away again! I’m not expecting too much of a problem. The problem is going to be getting to see it, let alone deal with it. Besides, all those who went before were all better than us and not only that, have paid for their sins big time. We are the dregs of satans machinations on this planet. One of my ancestors spent her life weaving lace! Mind you, if we all returned to the naked innocence of Adam, that is a great leveller. No clothes = no authority, one above the other. Better get into shape!

            • The Raven

              Haha! There’s an old saying, “If you want to know where your heart is, look where your mind goes when it wanders.”
              Out of the dregs He’s going to pull silver and gold. And sheep. Lots of sheep! lol!

            • Thinking

              So true ..

            • Craig Knight

              I was always taught that we would help teach those that are resurrected but that would be great to have angelic help. 1,000 years is a long time so it makes sense to me. If you mess up an angel will give you an invisible kick in the rear. HA HA!

            • The Raven

              Kevin posted a relpy to BC. This is it. You may find it interesting. I agree the wt is not BTG… yet. But it will be.

              Bklyn Kevin black curtain 8 hours ago
              We should be asking this question “when will the watchtower tract society become fully part of Babylon the great?
              In other words the watchtower tract society is still in her infancy and although the watchtower tract society is clearly showing not only the signs of rebellion that has brought major reproach on Jehovah’s great name she the watchtower is still not fully part of Babylon the great just yet, that happens when Jesus Come’s in his authentic Parousia when they the watchtower reject Jesus’ and become Antichrist – you see unlike Christendom who are clearly Antichrist with their Trinitarian teachings from their inception where’s the watchtower still teach’s the the basic truth by professing Jesus is the son of GOD as well as many other truths.
              The Antichrist Is Coming!
              Excerpt:
              Whatever the case, at the coming of Christ the Society will have served its purpose, at which point it will then become a snare. Or as Amos 5:5 states: “and as regards Bethel, it will become something uncanny.”
              Isaiah the 29th chapter foretells that Ariel will be besieged and encircled by pointed stakes, which is exactly what Christ prophesied would befall Jerusalem during the conclusion. As regards Ariel the prophecy states: “You will be brought low; from the ground you will speak, and what you say will be muffled by dust. Your voice will come from the ground like the voice of a spirit medium, and your words will chirp from the dust.”
              In other words, what once served as a channel and rallying point for God’s people will become a misleading voice. “Like the voice of a spirit medium” signifies that it will become an instrument to channel the voice of Satan.
              “LIFE-SAVING DIRECTION”?
              Who can dispute the fact that the Watchtower wields absolute control over the spiritual lives of all of Jehovah’s Witnesses? For example, here is a quote taken directly from paragraph 17 in the November, 2013 Watchtower:
              When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.
              Why is it assumed without question that the Watchtower (“Jehovah’s organization”) will issue “life-saving direction” in the future? And why would God’s instructions appear impractical?
              crystalball2When Jesus forewarned us not to believe any reports – no matter the source – regarding the whereabouts of Christ, is it possible that the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the source of announcements and “life-saving” instructions regarding Christ being in the “inner chambers” of Bethel, in whatever form Bethel may exist then? Has not Jesus himself already issued life-saving instructions; namely, that we should not believe anyone who claims to have special knowledge or instructions regarding his whereabouts and that we should flee without delay when the disgusting thing stands where it ought not? If the Watchtower claims it will be the source of “life-saving direction” during a critical time, is it not setting itself up to stand in the place of Christ?
              While it remains to be seen whether an individual like Judas will ultimately emerge, taken in their totality the writings of the prophets and apostles, as well as the pattern of the first century, indicate that the antichrist will come from within Christ’s congregation. And given the fact that the Watchtower has been the source of the deluding influence, it is simply out of the question that the same institution that has promoted a faux parousia will be used by God to issue life-saving directions.
              Yes, there is no question about it, the Watchtower is the antichrist that is coming!
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/anti
              Read a lot more> Search results for: antichris
              thttps://e-watchman.com/?s=….

            • Thinking

              Raven can I ask if you have ever read Perimeno…personally I don’t think either Perimeno Robert or the Society have got it all right…
              If they did…why would we even need the two witnesses….

              The society is a tool that he has used to preach the good news.and make his name Known thru out the world….

              We don’t really know for sure how things will unfold as of yet…..

              The society made that statement.about following their direction because they have seated themselves on the place of Moses/Jesus …..they have to make those sort of statements even publicly like that to uncover themselves …..and sadly many will follow those instructions …as they now claim to represent Jesus as Moses did…this is where….. the threshing and refining is taking place…or at least started to…

              As far as saying the society is the anti christ and part of BTG….well ..you know…I cannot see the pattern for that….so who’s interpretation do I beleive…what hope does some one like me have who is not annoited..

              Do I beleive BCs ,,Nigel’s..Kevin’s ..Roberts..Perimeno..bevs..daisies..yours..or even mine..
              We are treading on dangerous ground here I think….
              So all I can do is watch and ponder on patterns laid out…

              Joshua and Kaleb did not join themselves to Aaron when he prostitued himself…They waited on Moses to return and sort it out…
              I think I’ll try my best to imitate them…
              I’m sure all of us will be shocked at how things unfold..including myself…

              To make a massive judgmental statement that the society is the antichrist…..i think I’ll let Jesus make that call when he returns….

            • The Raven

              Look at when. That’s the key here. Not now. This is a future event and scripture supports the idea that we must abandon the idol and rely on jehovah. No matter where we are we cannot rely on men, especially not the mol, for guidance. After christ administers the beatings scripture states we are also scattered. True? That means we will have heeded the call to flee. Then what? He gathers us back after all. The two witnesses prphecy outside the temple. They are directly led by christ, not an org.

            • Burt Reynolds

              What you say makes a lot of sense, except that there is a contradiction in terms, in that the word will be preached in all the inhabited earth and that to do that, there must be teachers. Yet though there must be teachers, the fact that those teachers have both told the truth and the lie, it must also be so that there should rightly be teachers of truth, for those that see the lie. Following these, is no different from following the advice of Paul. His listeners had the same (rightly identified) problem you state. The Boreans gave the answer and we can not do otherwise. If the Boreans had said we will not believe you but wait until the truth exposes itself to us, then what would have been the result? Perhaps they had been praying for truth so Jesus sent Paul, yet they rejected that help through their stubbornness to allow themselves to be advised. It is fraught with difficulty and judgement. Sometimes, I think it best to listen, but to withhold judgement. As you say, sometimes it can work out. The 70ad destruction of Jerusalem was a pretty blatant affair, except that no one to this day, knew why the Romans came and then went. That would have raised a flood of predictions, but I bet that the no one predicted they would come back. So in many ways you are right. It has its value in waiting until it hits us in the face, except that by then, it might be too late as it was for those who did not heed the advice. Someone has to be telling the truth. Otherwise all is lost. The touchstone is the bible.

            • Thinking

              But I feel I have acted brother…I hope I’ve done what the beroeans did…certainly not as well I know..
              I feel as if I’m like all here and search and search…my action is deciding after all that searching …is that Jehovah’s Witnesses are his people at this time..until he brings the conclusion to the Christian Era…or this system of things to the end ….the waiting I’m doing is to see how he brings that about..every one here seems to have different scenarios……..

              I’m different to most here Burt…I don’t feel I’ll be fleeing anywhere…..nor do I feel that generation Jesus was talking about is this generation now living…

              I also know I could be wrong and may have to shift my goal posts…but at this stage of the game ..it’s how I see things…I hope I’m humble enough to adapt my thoughts if I have to…✌🏻

            • The Raven

              There’s nothing wrong with watching and waiting. All the discussions here are just our thoughts about the matters and much of it speculation. No one has the right to badger anyone into making a decision which could mean life or death eternal. That’s one reason why I do not push folks to leave or stay. The last thing I’d want is for this to blow up in both our faces. I’m sure when the prophetic events begin to occur there will be no doubt what’s happened for many and they will each act according to their gifts. Although humanity is brought through this collectively, judgement is an individual matter. Even for God’s people.

            • Thinking

              As to the contradictions in terms of the teachers…who teach truth but also lies…there is no contradiction really if you think of the full picture….step back and look at the pattern Burt ..it’s right there for all to see…

              Who do we JWs ..his house ..represent at this time..are we not like the Jewish system….did they not teach the laws of Moses (truth) ..but also tie in laws that were false..and lies….( about Jesus )
              We are doing that now…preaching the good news which must be preached before the end…tied in with wrong teachings…we are mimicking the pattern of old….we are at that stage now Burt….

              Now we Are waiting for Jesus to return….as he did with the Jewish system of things…
              History and patterns just continually repeating themselves …Jehovah doesn’t change…but unfortunately nor do his people….we just don’t learn do we…

              This is the way Jehovah talks with us…communicates with us…answers our prayers…you have plenty of faith Burt…it will see you thru….and no we don’t understand heaps of things…the way he does things or doesn’t do things.
              All the frustrating things you raised…does he even owe us any??
              It calls for an awful lot of trust on our part doesn’t it…..especially in these confusing last days…
              Hey I was reading some of Russels understanding of the scriptures…from that link I sent to Raven…he said some really interesting things that I can remember old timers talking about that you would never hear today..
              How he handed The care and teaching of the earth and mankind to one of his high ranking angels…trusting him totally to look after man…

              In doing that Jehovah has had to accept some responsibility in trusting him..and his effects of that misplaced trust…
              Thus…Jesus supplying the ransom and sacrifice…but he allows Satan the freedom that Adam chose…..inserting himself only when necessary to achieve his own purpose….there is more to it than that…off course.

              Anyway I’ve just paraphrased it rather poorly I’m afraid…but the way he explained it helped me a fair bit with my own confusion over some things…it helped me see it from a heavenly point of view…..of which I often struggle with…
              And yes I know there are many errors in his understandings of prophecy..but he was amazing with so much understanding..that can only be born along by Holy Spirit..
              I think you would enjoy it ..if you have not already read it that is…😉

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes I think I understand what you’re meaning is, but nonetheless would have to part company with you on some if it! We cannot preach the parts of the truth as they are promulgated today as truth when they are lies….( lest we share in her sins?) Likewise, Jehovah would not have to share in the responsibility for satans wrongdoing within the employment given him. I can see the point you are making, in that we’re we to employ a scoundrel in the workplace then we may share some guilt through poor our judgement. However, at the time of appointment, Satan was spoken of as a beautiful angel and was perfect. How could Jehovah appoint someone imperfect to do a perfect job? He would not. But I think in context with you’re reply I am only splitting hairs and it’s not really important in the great scheme of things.

            • Thinking

              We don’t have to part company at all…because I absolutely agree with you….we cannot teach lies…and those that know they are lies..don’t…
              But those that do…don’t know they are lies and are not awake as of yet…

              Well,as you know,only to well…even angels have free will…as to why Satan gave up what he had…who can know..I don’t….call it pride..or whatever…it’s hard to understand…
              I guess the glory of what man had was surely something to behold….something desirable…
              Man had what he could not…and how dare that be…he not,only had a whole earth to care for…and was given as a gift to man from Jehovah…he also had under his domination the animal kingdom…where as he Satan who was the most glorious of things had nobody under domination…but I guess worse than anything….he had the power to create….his own self in his children …wow..in a way..man was a creator…
              And thenangel of Eden had the task of teaching him……when you think about it…he even had the power to live forever..put before him….and to my Knowledge. Not,one of the angels ..even Michael..had that opurtunity…

              Often we think going to heaven will be so great…but look at how great the earth and mankind must have been to their eyes…and we have not even bring in the stunningly beautiful women yet..hahah….
              Actually writing this I realize I dont dwell enough on just what Jehovah gave to man……
              Does make me wonder what would have happened if another angel was put in charge…perhaps he would have got jealous anyway…looking on from where ever he happened to be up there…..Jehovah did say that the truth wasn’t in him….but im not touching that one as I don’t understand that either,,,lol…

            • into the light

              Joshua and Kaleb did not join themselves to Aaron when he prostitued himself…They waited on Moses to return and sort it out…

              This! There is too much speculation going around which adds to confusion. In reality, it’s pretty simple. As for Roberts Perimenos and others, I have said before that we need to watch their conduct and compare it against scripture. For example a while back Robert claimed there would be no move to Warwick, yet here they are… Just goes on to prove that our eagerness to see justice is not always what god wants. Jehovah operates on his own schedule and we just need to wait on him and trust him.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. It is enough to look upon something that by all reason should have imploded or collapsed under it’s own weight but remains nonetheless. Like the financial system. Talk about signs and wonders! Nothing but chewing gum, chicken band, and voodoo holding that mess together! Yet it remains! The relationship is all I have time to work on now!

            • Michael J Hewitt

              Before we
              get to BTG, 666 and all that we are to
              receive instructions from a legitimate discreet, wise slave, who after being
              fed 1,260 days before being killed by the Wild Beast and called up to heaven,
              will give us (remaining ones of her offspring) food at the proper time. Information
              about the work of bearing witnessing to the Christ . rev12:17a

              Interestingly
              this Woman is given protection for the safe delivery of her child from the mouth of the dragon. This
              must be the ideal time for Christ to cleanse the heavens distracting Lucifer
              and his demons from earthly affairs by starting a war in heaven, giving the
              child time to learn and teach the commandments and work of bearing witness to
              the Christ. This three and a half year teaching programme will no doubt educate
              and equip a great crowd to survive the wild beast that will emerge from
              inactivity.

            • The Raven

              War in heaven breaks out the same time as war on earth. The devil being cast out of heaven triggers it. The final witness is done by holy spirit lead people. That means Jehovah pours spirit out on His people . It is not “taught” by any man. In fact I have no intentions of believing anyone during that time. It could be very dangerous.
              I think I’ll just keep my bible handy, trust in Jehovah to save me, keep a watch for Christ’s return as He said to and pray.
              https://e-watchman.com/time-end/
              https://e-watchman.com/coming-fall-house-god/

            • Michael J Hewitt

              Well let’s hope were around to see, but I bet you I’m right. How else can we receive food at the proper time if not through mediation? At least it opens up healthy discussion, thanks for your input Raven

            • The Raven

              The offspring are the anointed. They have Christ alongside them. We who hope to survive must not give our allegiance to the beast and we must do good to Christ’s brothers. We will not know who they are so we must be right hearted towards all our fellowman. It’s that simple. Do we need to be taught this?. Love jehovah and your brother? What else is there?

            • Michael J Hewitt

              Ok Raven you have not convinced me. (I have been wrong in my reasoning many times b4. We will have to wait and see on this one, i’m sticking to my reasoning). Glad to be able to share such thoughts in a world so misled.Thanks for your comments. I’m sure we will both get there. Main thing is we are on the watch.

            • The Raven

              Hey man, follow whoever you wish. That’s what it will come down to anyway. Best wishes.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a plan!

            • The Raven

              The bottom line in its simplest terms is that by the time the call comes to get out of her , the wt will have become a part of it. In the meantime weve already had this discussion concerning those presently there. We know that it is the spirit they have which makes the hall God’s temple. But the building is nothing. Remember? We discussed several weeks ago that leaving the wt will also be in their hearts, not necesarily physically abandoning an org. The arrival of war, the devil and Christ is going to shatter the delusion and folks will have to decide whether they will continue to trust those who told them this could never happen or jehovah. The Master upends everything. I am of the opinion many will leave at that time.

            • Thinking

              I think we can ponder on Russia..I mean we have been liquidated..so what is there to leave..they cannot even use the NWT…which doesn’t mean a lot anyway I know as there are many translations to use and should be used…

              But they don’t have anything to flee from..as you said it may not be a physical fleeing ….I’m wondering and hoping Jehovah will allow everything to be taken from us….and yes many will leave then as they will feel they have been deceived..but they will blame Jehovah and not the society…many I think will even leave off from their belief in Jehovah….but this is just my personal reasoning which may be totally wrong …perhaps I would prefer that to happen…a total full frontal attack is easier to bear than the constant back door sly attacks from Satan…

            • Burt Reynolds

              Hello Thinking. I watched a TV programme yesterday in which it was openly stated that the Russian government is looking to ban all sects and religions in the country, even minority ethnic ones. I suppose the UN have to get the idea from somewhere. I have never known a political entity be able to think up their own ideas…they always seem to be implanted.

              As to fleeing….who knows? As Robert point out, to where are we to flee to? The same applies to fleeing from persecution…everywhere one goes there will be opposition. Maybe it is a fleeing of the mind. I tell you what I find difficult, and that’s the seeming contradictions in the bible. Jehovah will deliver his people, but may also let one be tested through death, but that in itself, is a deliverance! Jehovah hears prayers, but there is scant evidence he replies and we have to ask if we delude ourselves if things turn out our way,that such was Jehovah’s will. Presumptuousness. Jehovah will comfort you….when? Have faith….but in what? Look at all the ‘takes’ and opinions here; people will hear the call of Jesus, ….am I the only one who is deaf to that!?

              It’s not that I don’t have faith, but if I am honest with myself, my faith seems more to be in my ignorance of not understanding it all, blind acceptance, and thus by definition, must be blind because of such. I believe that Jehovah hears prayers, and believe it in faith, but without evidence, what does my faith rest on? How many of us would be communicating here if there was never a reply, and when we click ‘Post’, it just dissapears, never to be seen again. You never know it got there, you never have a reply. Just a thing hoped for , but not seen, and all that remains is hope that believing in faith, is, perhaps, faith in itself. ….having faith in entity of faith. I seem to alternate between faith in my faith, and faith that my faith is reliably placed. But what alternative is there? Only the stupid have faith that there is no creator. And that alternative is unthinkable; that we are alone, that this that we have built for ourselves is utopia, that love is just an insular island of survival in a self made slum ghetto of hate, suspicion and deceit.

              That, for me, is what eases my choices, even in life and death. Who really wants to be part of this world? Of what value is life; to end it as vulnerable to the mechanisms of this world? And to be truthful, would we really want to stay here indefinitely ? The fact that life may be only slightly better than an unknowing oblivion is a sad fact of present day values, and that the only value worth having, is faith that there is a hope! This is the world that Satan has prepared for us, and perhaps this is the subtle manner of Satan you speak of, that in the end, Satan has prepared for us a living oblivion in which we stand alone without input, output and with total sensory deprivation, where we make our choices in isolation of all else and unable to flee from it. If anything is to reveal our vulnerable, treacherous, naked heart condition, it might be that.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Another interesting point that you raise. I wonder just how many will see the issue. For example, when (if) this $66 million class action becomes known to the congregants, just how many will see it for what it is, and how many will self righteously see it as ‘persecution’? We don’t know of course. It has always been perplexing for me in that for all these issues that Robert raises here, along with all the worldly evidence thrown at the watchtower, I can instantly think of what the watchtower ‘scriptural’ retort, or justification will be, and how that will satisfy the deluded flock. I expect you and many others can give the same answer too. Just look at the hold that the ‘two witness’ scripture has over the congregants, as if any perpetrator would invite along an independant observer to such an act. It defies description, yet the vast majority of witnesses suck it up as truth. Which of course it is, but is not. Because they don’t know Jehovah, only the watchtower, they see no moral contradiction. They read words, but cannot understand the writer.

            • The Raven

              I think a good number of them have many doubts from discussions I’ve had with a few who were much older. They did not air them with anyone but closest friends or people like me who were not baptized. They went through all the obligatory motions but you could tell they knew all wasn’t right. I know we all had different experiences with this and some would say they are all blind and deaf, however I can’t assume that and when this all goes, “BOOM” I suppose we’ll see what’s what. That two witness rule became a serious problem for several in my area when they were caught by non witnesses. The result was divorce but the witnesses would not recognize it. The innocent parties left after that. I can’t blame them.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Those last few sentences of yours…sigh…what on earth is the matter with these witnesses?!

            • The Raven

              I know. It’s messed up. ☹

            • sally

              Anyone using any discernment, would, when hearing about the class action that has recently been filed against the org go and have a ganders on the web and research a little themselves. But unfortunately they are told not to do this as its “dangerous” and will comfort themselves with being told that things are unfolding just as Jesus foretold and they are being persecuted. I have been told this myself when I very innocently brought up an abuse case that was making news shortly after I began a study. I also sucked it up…for about 2 minutes fortunately

            • The Raven

              I have never been able to understand how a parent who’s child had been molested goes to an elder and not the police. I cannot to this day fathom how they could do this. It is a crime against a child. Not an immoral act between consenting adults. How could anyone give someone that kind of power and ditch his own responsibility for the child’s welfare. I would think they too have accountability in the pain they have brought them.

            • sally

              They are good questions Raven. I don’t know how they could put the org above their own children either. But it just goes to show the amount of power the org holds and brainwashing that goes on. Those parents that did not do the right thing by their child, once it all comes down they will have to reconcile themselves with the fact that they sold out their own children for a corrupt and wicked organisation. I would think that is a beating in itself. But then it is likely they (a good majority) will sadly keep following what is left of it and take the wide road to eternal destruction 🙁 Those that recognise the errors will have an enourmous burden to bear and may Jehovah have mercy on them and the victims of the abuse. I don’t know much but I do know on these matters absolute justice will be done.

            • The Raven

              Hi, sally. Your reply makes a lot of sense but I’m like you even though I never had kids I don’t think I’ll ever be able to understand how folks could do that. It’s no wonder Jehovah is furious with them.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Our office dealt with a case of a child being sold out of the back of a van for the price of a beer. The witnesses are conditioned to think they are sacrificing for Jehovah. There is no limit to the amount of evil one will perpetrate upon another, when they think they are doing right. Even today, people are happy to slaughter women and children in the name of God. And the tribulation has not even begun. Were they not eating each other by the end of the siege in Jerusalem ?

            • The Raven

              Everything you say is true. It doesn’t surprise me that folks love critters more than people. I have been a bloody handful with a few who mistreated little kids or animals in my sight. I could never tolerate it. This coming insanity is going to be so hard, man. I just pray it’s overwith quickly.

            • The Raven

              I was wondering what your thoughts were on the issue we discussed here. Does what I said make a little more sense after reading Kevin’s comment? It places much of what we discussed several weeks ago in a better light, I think. Especially concerning the temple and condition of the heart .

            • Craig Knight

              I missed Kevin’s comments so thank you for directing me there. I’m beginning to believe WT is already part of Christendom not only by definition but by their errors as supposed prophets as well. The arrogant prophets temple will be burned with fire when Christ really arrives. The fact that WT is the anti Christ is new to me so I need to look into that further. I need to save Kevin’s comments and mull them over. I’m assuming because they deny Christ’s coming is yet future is a big part of it.

            • The Raven

              I do not see them as part of christendom. The main issue here is when will the wt become a part of btg. They are not there yet but once trib begins it will collapse. Then people will see they have been misled. None of them believe war can happen so it’s a shock. Read kevins comment and give it some consideration . It’s also from an article Robert wrote on this matter.

            • Craig Knight

              BC was making the point that by dictionary definition Christian religions make up Christendom but I think the fact that they don’t teach the lies of Constantine make the JW’s very different! So I tend to agree with you about Christendom not being fitting in a real sense. The leadership will bear most of the sin of being labelled BTG not the JW foot soldiers who were just carrying out orders in my opinion. I guess we will just have to see how it plays out. It’s hard to make sense of things when so many different ideas are kicked around here on this forum.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, in the comment you just responded to it was stated that WT will become part of BTG, the only question being when. You now have to figure out how WT ever gets to be part of BTG without ever being part of Christendom if the house of God, supposedly the WT, is the FIRST casualty of the parousia as is Robert’s view. Cleansing starts with the house of God and BTG is destroyed for celebrating the destruction of the house of God. Ask the librarians.

              Much peace to you, brother.

            • The Raven

              It is not necessary for the WT to become part of Christendom to become part of BTG during the tribulation. Does Judaism or Islam?

              War and Christ’s arrival upends all the WT lies. They collapse. However Christendom and most if not all other religions go on since their beliefs are not predicated on a lie about Christ’s arrival. Hence the ridiculing and celebrating over their demise.

              The beast ascends and BTG is riding it. That means ALL the world’s religions including what’s left of the WT will have become a part of it, with the exception of the wheat who will by now have left along with others. But they are in captivity to BTG. The prophets are warned not to prophecy again or they will die. Judgement begins with His house first. THEN as more begin to worship the beast he devours and kills her taking all worship for himself, in effect becoming BTG in a sense.
              BTG is destroyed for having the blood of ALL in her not just for celebrating the demise of God’s house.

            • The Raven

              Here’s something to consider as well. Most people in the western world think this nwo will have some sort of Christ like religious representation to it. That may be from their particular perspective. But how do you get a billion atheists on board with that? Or Hindus or Muslims?Or pagans in numerous nations? You can’t. It may be a composite of ideals most people share which has them backing a government that places itself on God’s throne relatively speaking. But even there, governments, especially tyrannical ones will eventually push for complete control and destroy everyone who helped them get where they are. Look at Stalin. This makes me wonder just how far this can go even with Christendom who will also find themselves put to the sword. They are a big part of it but by no means the only ones. I certainly don’t see any of the world’s diverse religions buddying up to each other now or then even if they support the beast before their destruction.

            • Richard Long

              Raven, my brother.

              First must be addressed the elephant in the room, whereby I am astonished to be addressed by someone who has declared me their enemy, even an enemy of God, publicly proclaiming me to be a liar and an extortionist. I forgive you but cannot pretend it didn’t happen
              I certainly do not wish to “extract” apologies from the wrong party or push my “oppressive” peacemaking on those who see no value in it.

              I remain in the belief that people are entitled to ownership of their own words and that ideological symbiosis is not a prerequisite to brotherhood. I also believe that seeing a hazy reflection through a metal mirror – the best it EVER gets for any of us until the parousia – leaves plenty of room for divergence in understanding, but absolutely zero room for certainty. Even those with the token of anointing only know they are invited and must then search to find the “to what”. If your thinking differs, then pursue the outworking of your faith in peace, but you should consider

              Ps. 101:7 No deceitful person will dwell in my house,
              And no liar will stand in my presence.*

              and turn your face from me as long as you believe it to apply.

              In brotherly love,

              RL

            • The Raven

              What?

            • The Raven

              I don’t need to be forgiven. I told it like it was. But if you wish I will not reply to you again. I did not call you a liar or extortionist. So I don’t know where you’re coming from in that. We disagreed over how certain folks reacted and thats it.

            • Richard Long

              When one begins one’s response to another’s comment with “BS” that equals “you lie”. When one describes another’s words as “extracting apologies” that equals “you extort”. When one does either in such passing so as to not remember it, that equals antipathy, and when one needs no forgiveness, I must take their word for their innocence. You can reply to me all you want to, just can’t see why you’d wish to.

              I’m certain I imagined the whole thing anyway.

            • The Raven

              Wow, you got all that from it? I’m impressed! I’m sure as much as Brian was with your comments. You have always read a ton of extra stuff into everyone’s comments and attributed far, far more than was originally intended. But, whatever, man. You certainly have a talent for it. Have a good night, and I will never reply to you again. Even by proxy and I expect you won’t either.

            • Richard Long

              As is all too common between brothers, expectations often lead to disappointment. If ever a brother expected me to be dismissed, he has or will die disappointed.

              Neither should anyone ever be impressed with anything about me, and least of all my commentary. If ever you were, it says a lot more about you than it does me.

              But word’s are what they are – communication. And your brother has communicated to you what your words have meant to him. Your brother acknowledges he could be completely wrong about the spirit or intent behind your words, and only has the face value of your words to go by, and has every right to have clarification.

              Further, our kindergarten teachers usually help us to understand that whenever we use terms like “always” and “never” to describe the attributes or behaviors of another person, we are automatically standing on untruth. This is not to say that I am not incapable of blowing things out of proportion or even being plain obtuse – I often burden myself with these shortcomings, and many, many more.

              And since we’ve brought Brian into it, it is a matter of record that I apologized to Brian publicly for my abysmal behavior in dishing out that bowl of cack to him. And, also in the record, he accepted.

              You, my brother, were politely confronted with my expression of the impact your words had on me. Even if I am insane, which is entirely possible, the impact is what it is. Based on your words, I believe you think I am a liar and that I pressure people to apologize for what they ought not have to. You had and now have an opportunity to tell me I am wrong to believe this. This involves nothing more than saying “You’re wrong”. Lots of people have lots of fun telling me that lots of the time.

            • The Raven

              You got into the middle of an argument that has been ongoing since months ago. Even when I was attacked for speaking the truth and defending myself against really bad accusations of anti semitism, racism, being a charlestown freak, you and others never called out the one doing it but somehow this was all my fault. This isn’t about me at all. I meant what I said. You chose to see only part of this . Like other occasions where other members here were attacked for sticking to the wt presently you wanted peace but said nothing about what others did. What did you expect? If I disagree with an idealogy or belief that some have and get called names for it I will defend myself. I said nothing more than Robert wrote on that subject yet I have become the scapegoat for some people’s disagreement with those views. Or didn’t you notice? Its far easier to target a commenter than it is Robert. Maybe you’re ok with taking an unwarranted beating and then have someone jump in and cry peace but I’m not.

            • Richard Long

              So then…. I am wrong to believe you think I am a liar and that I pressure people to apologize for what they ought not have to?

            • The Raven

              Did you read anything I wrote? Let me spell it out; I called BS on the whole mess including what you said and I also said you got victims of attacks to apologize, which you did except for me. No comment on how I was attacked? This is all about you? Not the parties arguing? Just how YOU feel hurt? Wow…
              Tell that to others who have left or voiced their pain when they were beset by your friends. If you can’t see any of that or the mean spirited comment made to you about me ,then Richard, I have nothing else to say to you or any of them.
              Btw my faith has nothing to do with this whole sad mess. It is intact and I am having a great time speaking to folks who are a pleasure to deal with and don’t resort to sniping and I miss those who were run off by it.

            • Richard Long

              So then…. I am wrong to believe you think I am a liar and that I pressure people to apologize for what they ought not have to?

            • The Raven

              Do you feel like you were right or wrong in doing that? Can you answer that?

            • Richard Long

              Yes, I feel that I am right to believe you think I am a liar and that I pressure people to apologize for what they ought not have to.

            • The Raven

              That’s NOT what I asked you and you know it! I asked you if YOU thought you were right in defending culprits and demanding peace and apologies from victims while they were still being attacked. Man, this is pointless. You refuse to admit you were wrong and so were your friends for behaving so badly. So what does that make you? You also wanted apologies from those who were wronged, so again what does that make you?

              You want to hear it from me again because you can’t admit it? Need a target, man? Someone to shift all this over to as your friends have done?

              I’ll oblige. If the term BS means liar and you knowingly did it then yes. If again you knowingly defended the attackers and grieved the victims enough to cry over it while you wanted apologies, then yes.

            • Richard Long

              Yes, I know that is not what you asked, and yes I know your question was a deflection of mine, as are the qualifiers attached to the “obliged” answer to that original question, as is every word written in in avoidance of a yes or no answer.

              Sorry that to “oblige” your deflection would be a violation of my conscience, but it is what it is. Which aspect of clearing up misunderstanding and trying to regain a brother is pointless? I would hope I wouldn’t have to spell it out (again) but, honestly! Why would I bother with this exercise if it were not important to me? If YOU were not important to me?

              Have I been a failure at reaching you? Absolutely. Am I speaking a language you can’t understand? Apparently. Can I accept that the default is mine? I can and I do! Would it be more effective were I speak to you the way I spoke to Brian, or to Francis? I doubt it, and I don’t ever want to be that person again anyway. I only have my way of speaking
              to offer. I hope it is the way Christ would approve and I ask you which way should I follow that you think Christ would approve more? I cannot correct any as they were my children, I can only appeal to all as brothers. And then, I get the sense that although I am endeavoring to appeal to you as a brother, you are not hearing me as if I were one. Am I brother to you or not? If I am not worthy to be held as such, please tell me my defect that I may purge it! Or is it your heart that is not open?

              You may be of different opinion and are entitled to it, but in my opinion, if you think there is a list of “culprits” that does’t include both you and me, you are wrong. And I’m also of the opinion that the list of “victims” would comprise a null set save peaceful spiritual discourse. What I do see is a cadre of caricatures, myself included, all behaving abysmally toward each other in that instance and over an issue of non relevance in my opinion.

              The record also shows who drew “first blood” and if you need it to be acknowledged here again, as I have already in record, it wasn’t you. You might do well to acknowledge I took the brunt of that initial volley directly while you were actually collateral damage, also in record. What may be at trial is whether Christ might recommend my response of yours. It is only my opinion, and it doesn’t have to be yours, but in that instance you were’t just a fool, but a DAMNED fool! Did you really want me to say that then? Or now? Obviously, I condemn myself just by saying it!

              To say that I “refuse to admit you were wrong and so were your friends for behaving so badly. ” is contrary to the record, as I both have in previous commentary of record and will do again as required. But IN CASE it went unseen by you, and BECAUSE you, equally with all here, deserve equal representation to the record and equal consideration for your humanity, feelings and words, it is no concession at all for me to again freely say Richard, Bev, Daisy, Craig , and Raven ALL behaved abysmally on that day. I have stood in condemnation of the entire incident and the part I and all others played in it. I will remind you that where the record shows little or no defense of your words or consideration of your feelings on my part that this is by your own word that it be so. It was your directive that I be silent, and that is record also.

              To your statement: “I asked you if YOU thought you were right in defending culprits and demanding peace and apologies from victims while they were still being attacked.” I say I would take no action I did not see as right, in this instance I saw no culprits at any time, nor any victims nor will the record show any demand of any sort, for peace or apology from any person at any time. You may disagree. The record will show pleas for peace and civility, but no, a demand of any sort will not be found. But IN CASE it is, Raven – IN CASE I am mistaken – bring it forward that I may own it. Have I not said repeatedly I am as or more prone to error as any. My pressing concern, my suspicion, is that I be the great fool that considers you brother and no such consideration exists in return. If I am not a brother to you, please say it!

              The record will also show my expressions of disappointment in my own failure to shut that whole episode of idiocy down. That I failed ALL of my friends on that day is to my shame. That I attempted to be a voice of Christian reason on that occasion is not. If the effort was botched or is unappreciated I can live with that but still believe the effort was worth it.
              That you believe there is a “my friends” that doesn’t include you distresses me and I ask you what you think I might do to remedy that.

              “So what does that make you? You also wanted apologies from those who were wronged, so again what does that make you?”

              Misunderstood. An apology was not asked for and I never considered anybody wronged. What I did want at the time was for ALL of my friends to stop cacking up all their reactionary anger where I was tying to rest, think and converse. How dare I?

              “You want to hear it from me again because you can’t admit it?

              Does that mean I heard it from you once already at the original occurrence? It is not a question of admission on my part, but a need to know whether it was meant the way I received it. And as I have explained at the onset of these exchanges, it matters. IF we are actually brothers, that is. If you do not count me as brother, it is irrelevant, but if you do, it binds you under Christ to an entirely different set of entitlements that work both ways between brothers, some of these encapsulated in the blogs posting guidelines

              “Need a target, man?”

              I need the blog to be free of targets save untruth. I am here for peaceful spiritual discourse, particularly regarding the writings of Robert King. I’d like all my brothers to apply the law of the Christ and the house rules, and I’d certainly like to improve in those things myself. Do you need to be a target? Look elsewhere. I have no interest in harming you and every interest in gaining you.

              “Someone to shift all this over to as your friends have done?”

              I’m in this exchange by myself and my friends, which I have always considered to include you, have all heard the same message from me. Uniformly. Those that care to know are aware I am greatly distressed by the situation. They know I try to listen impartially, defend the one spoken against where I can, and the record shows I have repeatedly sought to shift “all this” squarely onto all of us, myself included. I continue to ask this community if we want to be what we ridicule in the congregations or the world, or do we want to be something better? A place where rest and recovery can be found for those who need it.

              Raven, you may not understand, because this was not your path, but those of us from the KH’s NEED what is here. Until we don’t. Its a halfway house, and a highly unsupervised one at that, for recovery from delusion. Someplace people rest and gather strength, then take flight from. And some choose to spend time “paying forward” even though they are no longer in need. Robert knows he is not the final destination. I don’t want to sound ungracious, and your contributions to helping others understand what Robert has seen and written are undeniable, but given you were never deluded, one has to wonder why you are there? Is this your final destination? If so, fine, but don’t you want it to be more than a scriptural slug-fest or an ideological octagon where ideas divergent from those Robert has published are quashed? Do you imagine that’s what Robert wants? An alt.Kingdom Hall?

              Set aside all the peripheral and focus on you and me for a moment. It is absolutely true that I have had to engage in some tactic’s I certainly think are ridiculous in order to maneuver this conversation while respecting the dictates of my conscience. You don’t have to understand that. The gist of the matter is I did receive your words as I have described and you have confirmed your contempt. One just has to wonder why you wouldn’t just say it when asked.

              “But I will add this; I can forgive it and I’m sure those who left can as well.”

              Since “it” is a premise I believe the record will show to be unsubstantiated, may I ask that you please apply whatever forgiveness you’re doling out to my inadequacies as a communicator. Since I suspect not one has left due to my conduct in the incident we are discussing, I will wait for more information before I allow my conscience to be stricken. For those I suspect have left due to the atmosphere resulting from tensions over ideas voiced that are divergent from Robert’s published work, I invite them to demand from me an accounting for what I have said and provide me with an opportunity to ask for forgiveness myself.

              “I’ve tried to look past it but you and others obviously cannot judging from the remarks I’ve read against even those who agreed with me.”

              For me there is noone else involved in this but you and I. This is about nothing more that the way I received your words and what my conscience demands I do about it. I say this not yet having confirmation whether my viewpoint or my conscience have any value to you or if to you I’m just some yahoo getting in the way of your good ol’ time ‘a conversatin’.

              The way forward, for me, would obviously depend on which confirmation, if any, that I receive. Maybe you do not want that at all?

            • Beverly kenyon

              Richard, as you know I think a lot of you as you’re a genuinely good guy but can I just say, this ‘culprit’ and proud of it will always behave abysmally towards self opinionated, vile race hating, persecution complex, potty mouthed individuals.

              And as for ‘whoever’ having to leave this blog, well, this blog turned into the Raven, Thinking & Huldah Show, just full of their witterings and entertaining each other with their ‘wisdom & wit’. No one could get a word in edge ways as this blog was completely taken over especially by those two. I don’t see you using abusive words to put your points across. It’s amazing to me that someone who had a few months association with JW’s is now a fully fledged JW who has been traumatised by the org and is qualified to speak as one. I think a certain ‘bird’ should get a life and a bar of carbolic soap for that potty mouth!

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Scripture for thought.
              The one who is slow to anger has great discernment,
              But the impatient one displays his foolishness.
              A calm heart gives life to the body,
              But jealousy is rottenness to the bones. Proverbs 14:29-30..

              Examples:
              Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his other sons+ because he was the son of his old age, and he had a special robe made for him. When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers, they began to hate him, and they could not speak peaceably to Genesis 37:3, 4him.
              Genesis 37:3, 4
              Saul became very angry, and this song displeased him, for he said: “They have credited David with tens of thousands, but to me they have credited thousands. The only thing left to give him is the kingship!” From that day on, Saul was always looking at David suspiciously.
              1 Samuel 18:8, 9

              If love is not jealous, and God is love, why is God jealous?.
              Excerpt:
              Just as there is a proper and improper love, so too, there is a proper and improper sort of jealousy. It would seem that love and jealousy are inseparable. Jealousy between marriage mates is proper. It is actually an expression of love and the expectation that each rightly reserves their affections exclusively for the other. If one mate were to flirt with someone to whom they were not married, or worse, be unfaithful, would that not be a cause of offense and jealousy for their mate? True, there can be a toxic sort of jealousy even within marriage, which we can attribute to our imperfect condition, but for the most part jealousy between marriage mates is healthy. In fact, if jealousy did not exist in a marriage it might be an indication of a lack of love on the part of one or both mates!Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/if-love-is-not-jealous-and-god-is-love-why/

            • The Raven

              Like I said, this is pointless. I’m not even going to bother with it . You blew a gasket over a reply so no more . A million words can’t justify what you and others have done to some fine folks here. And once again you have made this all about you and not them. No friend of mine would permit anything like this. I’m done replying.

            • Richard Long

              Yes, I know that is not what you asked, and yes I know your question was a deflection of mine, as are the qualifiers attached to the “obliged” answer to that original question, as is every word written in in avoidance of a yes or no answer.

              Sorry that to “oblige” your deflection would be a violation of my conscience, but it is what it is. Which aspect of clearing up misunderstanding and trying to regain a brother is pointless? I would hope I wouldn’t have to spell it out (again) but, honestly! Why would I bother with this exercise if it were not important to me? If YOU were not important to me?

              Have I been a failure at reaching you? Absolutely. Am I speaking a language you can’t understand? Apparently. Can I accept that the default is mine? I can and I do! Would it be more effective were I speak to you the way I spoke to Brian, or to Francis? I doubt it, and I don’t ever want to be that person again anyway. I only have my way of speaking
              to offer. I hope it is the way Christ would approve and I ask you which way should I follow that you think Christ would approve more? I cannot correct any as they were my children, I can only appeal to all as brothers. And then, I get the sense that although I am endeavoring to appeal to you as a brother, you are not hearing me as if I were one. Am I brother to you or not? If I am not worthy to be held as such, please tell me my defect that I may purge it! Or is it your heart that is not open?

              You may be of different opinion and are entitled to it, but in my opinion, if you think there is a list of “culprits” that does’t include both you and me, you are wrong. And I’m also of the opinion that the list of “victims” would comprise a null set save peaceful spiritual discourse. What I do see is a cadre of caricatures, myself included, all behaving abysmally toward each other in that instance and over an issue of non relevance in my opinion.

              The record also shows who drew “first blood” and if you need it to be acknowledged here again, as I have already in record, it wasn’t you. You might do well to acknowledge I took the brunt of that initial volley directly while you were actually collateral damage, also in record. What may be at trial is whether Christ might recommend my response or yours. It is only my opinion, and it doesn’t have to be yours, but in that instance you were’t just a fool, but a DAMNED fool! Did you really want me to say that then? Or now? Obviously, I condemn myself just by saying it!

              To say that I “refuse to admit you were wrong and so were your friends for behaving so badly. ” is contrary to the record, as I both have in previous commentary of record and will do again as required. But IN CASE it went unseen by you, and BECAUSE you, equally with all here, deserve equal representation to the record and equal consideration for your humanity, feelings and words, it is no concession at all for me to again freely say Richard, Bev, Daisy, Craig , and Raven ALL behaved abysmally on that day. I have stood in condemnation of the entire incident and the part I and all others played in it. I will remind you that where the record shows little or no defense of your words or consideration of your feelings on my part that this is by your own word that it be so. It was your directive that I be silent, and that is record also.

              To your statement: “I asked you if YOU thought you were right in defending culprits and demanding peace and apologies from victims while they were still being attacked.” I say I would take no action I did not see as right, in this instance I saw no culprits at any time, nor any victims nor will the record show any demand of any sort, for peace or apology from any person at any time. You may disagree. The record will show pleas for peace and civility, but no, a demand of any sort will not be found. But IN CASE it is, Raven – IN CASE I am mistaken – bring it forward that I may own it. Have I not said repeatedly I am as or more prone to error as any. My pressing concern, my suspicion, is that I be the great fool that considers you brother and no such consideration exists in return. If I am not a brother to you, please say it!

              The record will also show my expressions of disappointment in my own failure to shut that whole episode of idiocy down. That I failed ALL of my friends on that day is to my shame. That I attempted to be a voice of Christian reason on that occasion is not. If the effort was botched or is unappreciated I can live with that but still believe the effort was worth it.
              That you believe there is a “my friends” that doesn’t include you distresses me and I ask you what you think I might do to remedy that.

              “So what does that make you? You also wanted apologies from those who were wronged, so again what does that make you?”

              Misunderstood. An apology was not asked for and I never considered anybody wronged. What I did want at the time was for ALL of my friends to stop cacking up all their reactionary anger where I was tying to rest, think and converse. How dare I?

              “You want to hear it from me again because you can’t admit it?

              Does that mean I heard it from you once already at the original occurrence? It is not a question of admission on my part, but a need to know whether it was meant the way I received it. And as I have explained at the onset of these exchanges, it matters. IF we are actually brothers, that is. If you do not count me as brother, it is irrelevant, but if you do, it binds you under Christ to an entirely different set of entitlements that work both ways between brothers, some of these encapsulated in the blogs posting guidelines

              “Need a target, man?”

              I need the blog to be free of targets save untruth. I am here for peaceful spiritual discourse, particularly regarding the writings of Robert King. I’d like all my brothers to apply the law of the Christ and the house rules, and I’d certainly like to improve in those things myself. Do you need to be a target? Look elsewhere. I have no interest in harming you and every interest in gaining you.

              “Someone to shift all this over to as your friends have done?”

              I’m in this exchange by myself and my friends, which I have always considered to include you, have all heard the same message from me. Uniformly. Those that care to know are aware I am greatly distressed by the situation. They know I try to listen impartially, defend the one spoken against where I can, and the record shows I have repeatedly sought to shift “all this” squarely onto all of us, myself included. I continue to ask this community if we want to be what we ridicule in the congregations or the world, or do we want to be something better? A place where rest and recovery can be found for those who need it.

              Raven, you may not understand, because this was not your path, but those of us from the KH’s NEED what is here. Until we don’t. Its a halfway house, and a highly unsupervised one at that, for recovery from delusion. Someplace people rest and gather strength, then take flight from. And some choose to spend time “paying forward” even though they are no longer in need. Robert knows he is not the final destination. I don’t want to sound ungracious, and your contributions to helping others understand what Robert has seen and written are undeniable, but given you were never deluded, one has to wonder why you are there? Is this your final destination? If so, fine, but don’t you want it to be more than a scriptural slug-fest or an ideological octagon where ideas divergent from those Robert has published are quashed? Do you imagine that’s what Robert wants? An alt.Kingdom Hall?

              Set aside all the peripheral and focus on you and me for a moment. It is absolutely true that I have had to engage in some tactic’s I certainly think are ridiculous in order to maneuver this conversation while respecting the dictates of my conscience. You don’t have to understand that. The gist of the matter is I did receive your words as I have described and you have confirmed your contempt. One just has to wonder why you wouldn’t just say it when asked.

              “But I will add this; I can forgive it and I’m sure those who left can as well.”

              Since “it” is a premise I believe the record will show to be unsubstantiated, may I ask that you please apply whatever forgiveness you’re doling out to my inadequacies as a communicator. Since I suspect not one has left due to my conduct in the incident we are discussing, I will wait for more information before I allow my conscience to be stricken. For those I suspect have left due to the atmosphere resulting from tensions over ideas voiced that are divergent from Robert’s published work, I invite them to demand from me an accounting for what I have said and provide me with an opportunity to ask for forgiveness myself.

              “I’ve tried to look past it but you and others obviously cannot judging from the remarks I’ve read against even those who agreed with me.”

              For me there is noone else involved in this but you and I. This is about nothing more that the way I received your words and what my conscience demands I do about it. I say this not yet having confirmation whether my viewpoint or my conscience have any value to you or if to you I’m just some yahoo getting in the way of your good ol’ time ‘a conversatin’.

              The way forward, for me, depends on which, if any, confirmation I receive. Maybe you do not want that at all?

            • Thinking

              I had left Raven but I just want you to know I support you..and a number of others looking on do too …just block certain ones Raven…that way you won’t be affected by such poison and viciousness…
              At the moment this place is like a vipers den…and by their fruits you will recognise them…
              You may not be baptised Raven…but you have acted in a brave and honourable manner …and put to shame those who are baptised….
              You are up front and firm…an admiral quality to have..
              We may not agreee on everything…but the basics we sure do…so what does the rest matter hey…
              I am so sorry you are still being attacked…
              It’s a shame we cannot build each other up and encourage all the more so as the time draws near…
              Yet it was foretold that many brothers and sisters would turn on and betray each other….it just goes to show you how close we are perhaps to something happening..
              It has been a real pleasure to know you Raven…so stay strong BROTHER

              Your sister in faith….Thinking

            • Beverly kenyon

              You leave! Lol. You leave and then make more come back appearances than Frank Sinatra ever did! That’s loving of you to refer to everyone on this blog as ‘vipers’ even though your insult was directed to me ‘Sister’. Go to your bible and read up about the true and real meaning in the proper context about ‘vipers’ please.

              ‘Smooth words may hide a wicked heart, just as a pretty glaze covers a clay pot. People may cover their hatred with pleasant words but they’re deceiving you. They pretend to be kind, but don’t believe them. Their hearts are full of many evils.’ Proverbs 26:23-25. NLT

              There’s an insightful scripture for you and your ‘BROTHER’ to be ‘Thinking’ on. Ta-ra.

            • The Raven

              Hi, Thinking. You’re right of course. I thought I’d give it a shot to try to understand what the deal is with this. Oh well. Got to go to work now. I’ll think more about what you said concerning the nearness of that day. Hope you and the other folks are doing ok. Later, sis.
              😁

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Thinking I certainly agree with your thought when you said “You may not be baptised Raven…but you have acted in a brave and honourable manner …and put to shame those who are baptised….

            • Beverly kenyon

              Richard, is some narcissistic attention seeking going on here?! SMH. Rich, you’re too smart to be dragged into that mire. Empty vessels make most noise.

              At least you won’t end up eating ‘crow pie’ as you’re a well loved, respected, genuine non troll and you are definitely not a “Billy no mates” as you have real friends who think a lot of you. Never change!! X

            • Richard Long

              Probably. We all know how demented I am. I am only seeking to have my belief confirmed or denied. To my great shame, I cannot let it stand unanswered nor move forward as if I did not possess it, as the believing of it hinders my prayers.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Don’t run yourself down Richard, you’re a good guy with a good heart.

              I think it’s the duty of anyone of Faith, to seek to reaffirm or question that Faith.

            • into the light

              The end of btg may be as simple as the king of the norths demand that the world acknowledge there is no God…that man is God.

              Maybe in order to make that demand he will need to be convincing enough?

            • The Raven

              Sure can. He has the arsenals of the world at his disposal. Their thought could very well be that.

            • The Raven

              I agree with you on the differences. I think everyone who searches through this has to remember how Jehovah sees this and that’s sometimes hard to do. Not by our own standards or the world’s. It’s easy to get lost in minutia and lose sight of the bigger picture. That’s one of the reasons I like Robert’s work. He doesn’t mess around and gets down to business.

            • The Raven

              The replies I posted to Richard concerning btg and christendom are also open for your thoughts as well. I can find more info on it if you like but don’t want to inundate you. Lol!
              Take your time.

            • Jayshah

              1John 2:22

              Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

              The fact that the WTS has inserted itself into a baptism vow and has made themselves to be like a middleman to salvation has really Pushed Christ out and put itself in his place makes them an antichrist.
              I have also found that Christ Jesus has been ignored in its teachings for example I went to this year’s convention and the theme was on Endurance and many Bible characters were given as examples even trees and animals but Christ was only mentioned in a 3 min talk on a Sunday afternoon.

              1 John 4:3
              Verse Concepts
              and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

              1 John 2:18
              Verse Concepts
              Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

              We are not going to identify a single person ie. Obama or the pope or an organisation such as the WTS as an antichrist but there are many antichrists.

              2 John 1:7
              Verse Concepts
              For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

            • The Raven

              As fas as I know jws do acknowlege christ and the proper relationship between jehovah and he. In fact they pray to Jehovah in Christ’s name. They do not deny any of what you stated. The baptism is also in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. But…they added the org and that bumps not just christ but Jehovah also. The biggest issue with them is the false parousia. They are the only ones who claim christ arrived in 1914. That is demonstrably not true if revelation is to be believed. All of their prophetic “insight” is based on that lie. This also identifies them as the people spoken of who proclaim christ is already here from among God’s own people. They are operating under a delusion and the man of lawlessness within their own ranks. Scripture said this would happen to Jehovah’s people. The man of lawlessness eventually becomes antichrist. When Christ does return amid war and collapse as tribulation begins all the lies will be revealed and he will sort it out.

            • Craig Knight

              Jayshan – Hi I’m glad you wrote me back. I was trying to respond to your comments to BC and myself. But I couldn’t find you for some reason. Anyway, I really appreciated your comments they were very helpful to me.

              The explanation you gave here – The fact that the WTS has inserted itself into a baptism vow and has made themselves to be like a middleman to salvation has really Pushed Christ out and put itself in his place makes them an antichrist.

              So far that is one of the best responses I have heard as to why they are the anti Christ. I have always found that sickening that they would include themselves between God and Christ in the baptismal vows. They do this so it is easier for them to disfellowship JW’s who question them and to have total control over JW’s. It will be harder for JW’s to sue the WT also. It always comes down to their total control over the sheep. Pretty disgusting! Teaching a false parousia is also a part of being the anti Christ of course. Your input here is very much appreciated.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, an eye opening experience may be obtained by visiting the Beroean Pickets website. The WT reviewers have taken to including for each article reviewed a tally of occurrences for “Jehovah” and “Jesus” in the subject article. Usually runs about 20-40 to 1 in Jehovah’s favor, which I’m sure Jesus doesn’t mind. But it is telling for such to be the case in a publication purporting to be “Christian” literature.

            • Craig Knight

              That’s an awesome site – thanks for sharing that!!!

            • Jayshah

              Thanks Craig Knight you are a gentleman. The Raven responded to me on the same subject I’m not sure if you have seen it but you may benefit from it.

            • The Raven

              If you look hard enough you will find similarities between not only religions, but any government or corporation as well. It’s not the myopic legalese and definitions that concern me… its the vast differences doctrinally and in application of such that matters here. You want definitions? How about christendoms definition of a christian? They do not recognize Jehovah’s witnesses as christians at all. So trying to cram them into a “faith” that has nothing to do with jehovah or the truth, basic ones even, will bring objections from christendom as well!. The things which have always set them apart are exactly what Christ said they are. Yes, they have all of prophecy wrong, but you know why as well and they are also distinct for having claimed Christ has already arrived. Scripture identifies them as well. The test will come when he does arrive as we all know.

            • Craig Knight

              That’s a good point that Christendom doesn’t recognize JW’s as a Christian religion.

          • Burt Reynolds

            I don’t think that this is something we can look at in human terms. Where is heaven? The watchtower estimated that it was a literal place about 20 days from here at the speed of light. Their reckoning was based on the delivering of the Holy Spirit on the apostles after his ascension. I.e., 20 days there 20 days back…they never said how long it took Christ to enter in before the father and present his sacrifice. As usual, the watchtower omits lateral thinking such as space, time and dimensions….probably as they tend to labour under the weight of no education. I presume after 120+ years that ignorance has filtered through right to the top.

            It’s unwise, or fruitless to wonder from where Christ will govern because spirit is not bound by three dimensions. It is not unreasonable then to assume that the same space can be occupied at the same time by not only two different entities, but by the same being. As we know, Jehovah is onimpotent and appears to mange such a feat without any problems, in any event, we know that influence is enough for his presence to be felt, and even in human terms, we are all used to remote rulership and its affects….at least you guys are, getting quiet upset at our George taxing you without representation.

            The fact is that if there is one dimension, then there must be two. If there are two, there must be three, and four, five and so on. It is not possible to have one dimension without a superseding one. Also, humans are unable to cross the barrier between flesh and spirit, and so if there is to be an interface between humans and spirit, be it direct or angelic, it has to be on our terms and within our understanding. I think the only example we have is Jehovah visiting Adam in the ‘breezy part of the day’, and clearly not all of him because as you point out, to do so would not be sustained by human form.

            • Craig Knight

              Yes Jehovah spoke to Adam only or Adam would have been burnt to a crisp with the glory of God. That was my point to Beverly why God will not rule on the earth. We puny little humans would be dead.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Hi Craig, loved reading those scriptures you quoted. And yes, I get what you’re saying but I’m still with Arvid on this particular point as for me it all makes sense. And you’re most probably going to think I’ve gone completely bonkers but I believe not only will the Christ be visiting us or might be for the whole of the 1000 year rule be here on earth with us, I feel that he most probably will be at the Millenium temple spoken of in Ezekiel chapters 40 and 42. In that Temple there’s not an outer court for the Gentiles with the separating wall…Jesus has broken down that wall. Ephesians 2:14.

            Also, no seperate court for women as his House will be a house of prayers for men & women of ALL nations. Mark11:17. Isaiah56:7

            This Temple has got to be in the future as it has much larger dimensions than the Temple of Jesus’ day along with other features also along with animal sacrifices being performed as a memorial, a reminder of the ransom sacrifice of the Christ.

            The Heavenly Father has always been actively involved with his children starting with Adam & Eve then the Jewish nation and I believe that will continue through his Son, which would be like Yahweh himself being with us. John 14:9.

            ‘Jesus said, Have I been with you men so long a time and yet Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John14:9 NWT

            Just a side point regarding that scripture quoted above. It’s said in Isaiah53:2 that Jesus was a plain looking man. Maybe Philip thought how could this plain, ordinary looking man claim to be the image of the Father?!

            ‘He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him’. Isaiah 53:2.

            • Craig Knight

              I’m starting to figure out after 30 years away from WTC that I still am captive to some of their quirky teachings. Like they are God’s only channel etc. WT might think it’s God’s channel or temple but I suspect their temple will be burned down soon. I’m starting to think outside the WT box thanks to you folks here. It’s entirely possible that Christ will visit us on the earth. We are his children after all. So that’s a nice picture to think upon. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              For some Craig, it’s can be difficult to strip away the man made doctrines we were drip fed week in week out as that sort of conditioning goes deep into the psyche of a spiritual person and then if the denomination you’ve aligned yourself to applies a lot of aspects of the Old Testament to themselves with bold claims like, we’re ‘God’s People’ and ‘God’s Organisation’ and ‘God’s Channel of communication’ well, that creates a sense of ‘specialness’ and exclusivety’ among its members which then makes their claims believable to most. But Black Curtain puts across that point beautifully. But for some of us here, armed with discernment, we’re having to re-learn most of what we were taught from their platform and in our houses.

              At the moment, imo, from what I’m understanding in the Bible and you’re gonna think this is radical, but, I’m beginning to believe that those that come out of the tribulation who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb are the Kings/Priests and that number 144,000 is symbolic in some way so therefore it’s the Great crowd that would be the Kings/Priests and present day that means me or you if we keep our obedience and Love and Loyalty to the Christ.

              I might get some ‘heat’ for saying that but the words aren’t mine but the Heavenly Father’s words from his Word, the Bible as the Bible was written to be understood by your ordinary person and not clouded in mystery and a load of symbolism.

            • Richard Long

              And not a word about Rutherford???? Have you been completely overtaken by this Jesus?!?! 😜😉

            • Beverly kenyon

              RL, are you taking the mick?! Lol. I AM completely overtaken by my Lord! And I praise Jah and Thinking for that as if it weren’t for her with her mantra of ‘wheat & weeds’ maybe, I might not be the Christian Witness for the Christ that I am FINALLY! Then what nailed it for me was the 7 Letters to the congregations!

              RL, when you said it’s in their DNA…the WTC….well, you’re right, it is! They are the little brother of the big brother, the Millerites/SDA’s.

            • Craig Knight

              The WTC is a mind control group for sure in my opinion and shaking all this hypnotism is a real struggle. I have questioned this 144,000 teaching myself. Revelation has symbolic and literal teachings all mixed together. For example the beasts of Revelation are symbolic but also literal. For example the Beasts are symbolic but the 7 world powers are literal and the Bible explains who the world powers are. I’am not familiar with the Talmud but maybe the garden was so wonder ful it seemed like heaven. The Bible is pretty clear that our parents Adam and Eve were created on earth and by disobedience paradise was lost. God’s whole plan is to restore mankind to fulfill God’s purpose of the paradise earth. Robert’s video on the 144,000 is so good. The fact that few are given immortality as a special gift is very loving on God’s part. I’m sure God doesn’t need human’s in heaven but it was a loving gesture on God’s part. They are called a special possession for a reason. Maybe you have the heavenly calling because I don’t feel it. So if you feel you have the calling then who am I to question that. I am an open bowl to all ideas at this point in my life. The heavenly calling has been open all this time from 33 ce to present the time and after Christ’s 2nd coming that will be the end of the heavenly calling. So if you feel you have the calling then rejoice in that! 🙂

    • Noe Namely

      Any thoughts on how this test of faith is to be administered? Will the average person somehow know they are being put to the test or will their daily overt actions in life be used as a confession either for or against them? I try to understand these things but my mind doesn’t grasp or hold on to things like it once did. Admittedly, I struggle with it. 4 nights ago. I had the most horrifying dream of my entire life. I awoke trembling and did so almost 5 minuets after waking up. Where the coming of Christ the sky is to be so brilliant with the weeping & gnashing of teeth…in my dream I heard a loud voice announcing his arrival as the sky turned many glowing brilliant colors. It horrified me. I think perhaps I think & fear I am not worthy and live in fear of my eternal life? I think this is why I ask my question?

      • World war, famine, pestilence on a scale never before experienced will be a pretty good indication the Watchtower has misled Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the return of Christ.

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Luk.18:13-14 comes to mind 🙂
        You fear that you are not worthy?…you are in good company…i belive the whole “army” of those marching on the narrow road into the kingdom is sharing that feeling…
        I am more worried about those who share the same attitude as that phariseean..
        Daniel and the apostle Jhonn had similar experiense as you…and they was both reminded that they where loved 🙂
        (Dan.10:8-12…Rev.1:17)

      • Beverly kenyon

        Wow, Noe Namely, your dream was very vivid! Even at the announcement of Jesus’ birth the shepherds were terrified. Luke2:9. So yes, Namely, it’s going to be most terrifying of times and the most wondrous of time as he’s going to liberate us from the Ruler of the World.

        As RK has said to you, war, famine and pestilence on a scale never seen before is how the test of faith will be administered. For me, it’s about fortifying myself spiritually, living a Christian life and keeping my Faith in God and his Son….that’s if I make it through the first wave but ultimately, it’s about the Santification of the Heavenly Father’s name and building a close relationship with his Son, Jesus Christ.

      • The Raven

        Isaiah
        41
        “Listen to me in silence,* you islands;
        Let the nations regain their strength.
        Let them approach; then let them speak.+
        Let us come together for judgment.
        2 Who has raised up someone from the sunrise,*+
        Calling him in righteousness to His feet,*
        To hand over nations to him
        And to make him subdue kings?+
        Who reduces them to dust before his sword,
        Like windblown stubble before his bow?
        3 He pursues them, passing along unhindered
        Over paths that his feet have not traveled.
        4 Who has acted and done this,
        Summoning the generations from the beginning?
        I, Jehovah, am the First One;+
        And with the last ones I am the same.”+
        5 The islands have seen it and have become afraid.
        The ends of the earth began to tremble.
        They draw near and come forward.
        6 Each one helps his companion
        And says to his brother: “Be strong.”
        7 So the craftsman strengthens the metalworker;+
        The one who flattens with the forge hammer
        Strengthens the one hammering at the anvil.
        He says about the soldering: “It is good.”
        Then it is fastened with nails so that it will not topple over.
        8 “But you, O Israel, are my servant,+
        You, O Jacob, whom I have chosen,+
        The offspring* of Abraham my friend,+
        9 You, whom I took from the ends of the earth,+
        And you, whom I called from its most distant parts.
        I said to you, ‘You are my servant;+
        I have chosen you; I have not rejected you.+
        10 Do not be afraid, for I am with you.+
        Do not be anxious, for I am your God.+
        I will fortify you, yes, I will help you,+
        I will really hold on to you with my right hand of righteousness.’
        11 Look! All those getting enraged against you will be put to shame and humiliated.+
        Those who fight with you will be brought to nothing and perish.+
        12 You will search for men who struggle with you, but you will not find them;
        The men at war with you will become as something nonexistent, as nothing at all.+
        13 For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand,
        The One saying to you, ‘Do not be afraid. I will help you.’+

      • Burt Reynolds

        When you consider that Paul was chosen to play a huge part in the spreading of the word, and consider his background, you see that he had hidden qualities he knew nothing about. Jehovah has pointed you in the right direction, so he must see something there and you have more than Paul had. You have both knowledge and the desire to follow Jesus. Paul had neither. You have both. Sounds like a very good start!

    • do “ALL denominations”, this meaning specifically Christendom, accept Jehovah? no. most in some way believe that Jehovah is Jesus. can anyone accept Jesus, who is truth & light, and yet deny Jehovah? no, because apparently people who are seeking Jehovah in truth (James 4:8) are drawn to Jesus by Jehovah himself (John 6:44) because they are required to go through Jesus to know him. (John 14:6) so then how can “ALL denominations” be loyal to someone they do not honestly accept as God in the first place? (1-John 2:22-23)

      Zechariah 8:23 says “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: ‘We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.’”

      you people making up the composite Jew, who are they?

      “‘And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.”

      they are people who have profaned the name of Jehovah

      • Thinking

        Very nice post brother

        • i understand there are sincere people searching through denominations honestly seeking God. Robert was one

          • Thinking

            So was I And thank goodness for his patience

      • Beverly kenyon

        ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. The people of EVERY nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats’. Matt25:31,32.

        If I’m mistaken DA, that scripture plainly says, ‘EVERY nation and I would think, ALL denominations would be included there. And haven’t God’s great name been profaned from day one and God was talking to the Jewish nation directly when he was talking about his great name being profaned.

        ‘In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways’. Hebrews1:1 NIV

        We now have the COMPLETE Word of God with which God now speaks to us as this was accomplished by the sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ and for me, in my imo, I take that Zechariah8:23 scripture literally as how I’m reading it is….the Jew is the Christ and the ‘ten men’ are as it says, ‘out of ALL of the languages of the NATIONS…non Jews.

        If I’m wrong, then please excuse my limited knowledge as I’m still a work in progress as a Bible Student

        • originally i was including Zephaniah in that comment because thats exactly my point Beverly. the whole earth will be subject to Jehovah’s day. every knee will bend. so what is the point of even saying the ‘loyalty of ALL denominations’* (Christendom) to begin with? (John 6:44) do “ALL denominations” lead to” the “truth and the light” (Christ)? no.

          why is the Jew being referred to as you & you people? are “ALL denominations” of “one mind”? (John 17:6;26) no. then the nations arent going to recognize any united loyalty to Jehovah from or within “ALL” the thousands of Christendom sects to “take hold” of. people will come to terms and leave their denomination along with people getting out of Babylon as a whole just as Jehovah’s witnesses must abandon any “covenant with death” they may have with the Watchtower idol because “all the languages” will reconize Christ & his anointed servents as the Jew (which means a person of Jehovah God) “outside the camp”. (Heb 13:13)

          so loyalty will be required even by people who are not part of any denominational branch.

          *denomination – a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Thanks Doc.

            • yw. if im wrong then oh well, Jesus will set me stright

            • Beverly kenyon

              Lol. You’re right DA. Everything will come out in the wash. X

  • “the heavenly calling itself, comes to an end” 🙁

  • Ken Rosenberg

    The constant feature is the bible, not the watchtower magazine.

    • yeah. i would think the promotion of truth the bible features. ban on bible’s? well thats been done with the NWT in Russia, but if not everywhere, the truth has been dumbing down intentionally so i would think regardless of other study aid publacations that continue to be printed, the bibles feature of the truth can be removed even if they are still working magazines and other study-aids

      • Ken Rosenberg

        It will be removed by the wild beast.

        • thats a lot of bibles to remove. there are probably over 6 billion printed bibles all over the planet. be eazyer to stop the preaching work or remove the truth from the work

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      Watch tower magazine? Satan’s deluding influence. I don’t bother if it is banned.

  • Rowel Jimenez

    Great artcle…its helps to prepare wawt happen in the future and keep our integrity as true christian…

  • The Ancient Witness

    Simply put: Keep your loyality and faith to the almighty God and his son the Lord Jesus Christ. Put and keep faith in them. Keep studying the Bible and STOP following the doctrine and dogma of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Don’t follow a group of men when you KNOW you should follow Jesus Christ as the example. Just look up the word “Salvation” in the bible.

  • Beverly kenyon

    The pattern for denominational groups can be found be found in their various doctrinal (creed) books and ‘manuels’ but the pattern for the New Testament body of Christians is the Christ…Christ being the Head of the body, congregation (gr.ekklesia called out ones).

    Yes, the society is teaching basic Bible truths as are many Christian groups, but ALL of them, some more than others…the society included….they just do not practice what they preach due to the bad attitude and lack of Love toward and for each other.

    So we have to ask ourselves, are we a member of the body of Christ?

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