In this way the last ones will be first

//In this way the last ones will be first

Sunday, October 1

Those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called.—Rom. 8:30.

Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus’ death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed. From the first century until the beginning of the last days, the vast majority of those who claimed to follow Christ were false Christians; Jesus likened them to “weeds.” Even so, Jehovah continued to anoint some faithful ones throughout that time, and they proved to be like the “wheat” Jesus described. During the last days, Jehovah has continued to select those who will make up the 144,000. If he chooses to wait until late into that period to select some for that privilege, who are we to question his wisdom? We must be careful not to react like the disgruntled workers who complained about the way their master dealt with the 11th-hour workers.

 

There is a saying among Jehovah’s Witnesses that the light keeps getting brighter and brighter —meaning, that what was once taught as the truth was in fact error, but was replaced by newly revealed truth, so that the previously believed error simply becomes old truth without any acknowledgment of the error. The “new light” phenomenon is made out to be some sort of supernatural thing with no humans responsible for previously taught untruth —only the emergence of the beam of new light. It is maddening, to be sure; and unfortunately, the process of revealing new truth is not carried out in a truthful and straightforward way.

Take the day’s text for example, which states in the concluding sentences:

If he chooses to wait until late into that period to select some for that privilege, who are we to question his wisdom? We must be careful not to react like the disgruntled workers who complained about the way their master dealt with the 11th-hour workers.

Most likely the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses who read this text or the Watchtower article from where it was extracted will not view this as any sort of new light or major revision from previously taught truth. Although it is expressed in a very vague and general way, still, the application of the persecution of the 11th hour workers by Jehovah’s Witnesses is a departure.

Granted, Jesus’ illustration in the 20th chapter of Matthew is not something the Watchtower has frequently expounded upon. But, in the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived (1991) the illustration of the vineyard workers was explained to apply primarily to the Pharisees and by extension the clergy of Christendom. It is absurd in the extreme, but according to the Watchtower Jesus hired the Pharisees to go out into his vineyard and the apostles were late-comers to the work and were resented by the Pharisees.

The Watchtower then doubles down and asserts that Christ hired the clergy to do his work and agreed with them for their wage and then the Bible Students came along in the 11th hour, which supposedly began in 1919 and has extended to the present. Supposedly the clergy have resented the latecomer anointed remnant.

There is no point dwelling on how preposterous the Watchtower’s teaching is. It certainly is an embarrassment. The point of this article is to highlight the fact that the Governing Body —while obviously contradicting their own teaching on the meaning of the illustration have, at least timidly, intimated that the resentment of the 11th hour workers comes from Jehovah’s Witnesses and not the clergy of Christendom. Of course, even that is not entirely true.

The primary error in the Watchtower’s understanding of the vineyard illustration is that all the workers who were hired by the master ultimately receive their agreed wage. According to the Watchtower’s interpretation, then, the Pharisees and the clergy receive the same wage as the apostles and anointed today. Again, without belaboring the asininity of the Watchtower’s interpretation, obviously that cannot be true. And, certainly, that is not what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. It is only what is implied in their bizarre interpretation.

Since all the workers receive the same wage they all must be anointed. And since they are all in the vineyard working on the same day and are all paid their wage at the same time, the vineyard workers cannot be spread out over multiple generations. No, the illustration applies to those who are on hand when Christ returns.

As regards the comment quoted above, “who are we to question his wisdom,” the answer is —the Governing Body. They have presumptuously questioned God’s wisdom, although now they slough it off on the lowly rank and file JW. In an article published 12 years ago this matter was discussed in detail. In that article a reference was made to the February 15th, 1983, Watchtower, which stated:

“As to the possibility of being a born again replacement at this late hour, understandably only a very few of these remaining anointed ones are likely to forfeit their heavenly calling by becoming unfaithful. Their ranks have by now been thinned by death to only a few thousand. If it becomes necessary to replace one, whom would Jehovah call? Jesus said of those invited to be his apostles: ‘You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials.’ Logically, Jehovah would select someone who had been associated for many years and who had displayed endurance and loyalty under trial, rather than someone who had only recently become a baptized disciple of Jesus and perhaps was yet unproved in many respects. This is not said dogmatically or to provide a basis for judging anyone’s personal claim, but to help newly associated ones to avoid being presumptuous and to be sure of Jehovah’s manner of dealing with them.”

As demonstrated above, the Governing Body most certainly do tell Jehovah his business, asserting that God would not anoint someone who had not proven their worthiness beforehand. By injecting this idea into the minds of Jehovah’s Witnesses back then, the Watchtower is responsible for cultivating an atmosphere wherein newly anointed persons have been subjected to subtle persecution and ridicule. But we should not expect the Governing Body to own up to that. It is not the Watchtower way.

But while the resentment of newly anointed persons within Jehovah’s Witnesses is an observable phenomenon, the ultimate fulfillment of Jesus’ vineyard illustration has not taken place. That is because the wage has not been paid out and that is when the disgruntled workers express their resentment of the late hires.

Interestingly, going back to the concluding verse of the 19th chapter of Mathew, Jesus sandwiched his vineyard illustration between the exact same expression. In introduction to the illustration Jesus said: “But many who are first will be last and the last first.” And in conclusion he repeated that, saying at Matthew 20:16: “In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”

Since those in union with Christ who have already died are assured of being first to experience the first resurrection, clearly the principle of the first being last and the last first does not apply to them. As stated already, it only applies to those living when Christ returns. In what way might the principle apply to them?

From the very beginning of the gathering of the latter day saints, to borrow an expression, the Watchtower has perpetrated the falsehood that the presence of Christ has begun. For over 50 years it proclaimed that an invisible parousia began in 1874. Since 1930 the date has been flipped to 1914. In any case, there is no such thing as an invisible presence. After all, Jesus has always been invisibly present with his disciples, even as he assured them on the day of his departure, when he said: “look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

No, the parousia is something much different. Jesus explained it in another illustration. Speaking to his little flock, Jesus said: “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him. Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. And if he comes in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them ready, happy are they! But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.” –Luke 12

The coming of the Son of man is what begins the parousia. As Jehovah’s Witnesses surely know, the Greek word parousia literally means to come alongside. And in the illustration above Jesus spelled it out. He said if he found his disciples ready to open the door to him he would come in an recline at the passover table with them and come alongside and minister to them. In other words, Jesus is going to visibly manifest himself to the chosen ones. It will have a transformative effect upon them.

But, we should not suppose that Jesus will simultaneously manifest himself to all. We can take a clue from the way Jesus manifested himself to his disciples after his resurrection. First, he revealed himself to Mary and told her to tell his brothers he had risen. Her testimony was disbelieved. It seems that one of the apostles, Thomas, was the very last one to see Jesus, because of his disbelief.

Because the old guard associated with the Bethel establishment have promoted a false parousia, yet they have all the honors as being the wise and faithful servant, they being first now will be last then. Those who are anointed lastly will be the first to see the Son of man when he comes. He will come alongside the last first. That is in keeping with the fact that the 11th hour workers are the first to be paid. Likely their testimony will be disbelieved and they will be persecuted by their own brothers until such time as Christ appears to them and the scales fall from their eyes. “In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”

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2017-10-01T10:32:12+00:00 October 1st, 2017|Commentary|233 Comments
  • Srecko Sostar

    good article. thanks!

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    I don’t know what to tell but to say the level of blindness among GB. I better suggest they should consider the book Jehovah himself has become king.

  • Cathii D’Anthonii

    It’s doesn’t even make mathematical sense that absolutely everyone in the first century Christian Congregation were anointed. Yet that is what the WTS taught…So, did they know about the Paradise earth???Of course , they would have had to, or Paul would not have written about those partaking unworthily..right?

    • black curtain

      I liked the points that yourself and Burt have made Cathii, both make sense to me, in terms of logic and commonsense. Just a simple example of what you are saying in a math’l sense- in round figures if Jesus made the covenant for a kingdom 30 AD and it is now 2017 and subtracting the former from the latter is 1987 years since that event. Dividing 1987 into 144,000 gives an average of 72 persons per year every year since 30AD who could have been chosen as anointed. Fun averages.

      In someways it has a small traction that it is not as silly as it sounds, in that, who would better be equipped in empathy and understanding than people who lived at various eras/times, to help newly resurrected ones understand and cope with the new circumstances of life? Again just fun averages, but not a fixed formula.
      But as you say, the WT was not right in suggesting all first century christians were anointed. That seems to ignore the fact that not everybody wants to go there (Cook’s Tours excepted). It would hardly be likely that Jehovah would drag, an otherwise loyal subject, who was kicking and screaming (a kind of amusing word picture) that he/she didn’t want to go to heaven.
      regards bc

      • Richard Long

        Hi bc,

        I have come to the conclusion that since I do not yet fully comprehend what destiny Jehovah or Jesus might have in mind for me, it might just be an intelligent choice to not let the WT/GB pick for me.

        • black curtain

          A wise man always considers his options Richard. Good choice
          regards bc

        • Nigel

          “It would be wise not to speculate.”

          Lol. Had to write that…

      • Burt Reynolds

        You may have not taken into consideration ‘Special Offer’ years. ‘Get annointed and family comes free!’ That would screw up your calculations.

        • black curtain

          As Maxwell Smart would say, that’s the second time this month I have forgotten those special offer years, and “missed it by that much.
          kindest regards bc

    • Craig Knight

      The first century Christians were all anointed but after John’s death the Apostasy began to take over right away as it was already trying to get a foothold in Paul’s day. 2 Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. So when John died the truth as Jesus taught it got muddled fairly quickly because the Apostles acted as a restraining influence.

      There weren’t as many Christians in the 1st century as many people think:

      The 50s were witness to the extraordinary missionary activity of Paul and
      his co-workers. After his departure from Antioch following the incursion by
      James, Paul established many Gentile churches around the Aegean basin,
      many of which were in large cities. It is impossible to determine with any
      precision the numbers of Gentile converts in the Pauline network, but by the
      year 58, the year of Paul’s arrest in Jerusalem, we can safely estimate that there
      were at least 1 000 Gentile Christians in his churches. In addition to these
      Pauline communities, the (Hellenist) church in Rome was by the late 50s both
      large and predominantly Gentile. There were perhaps many hundreds of Gentile
      Christians in the imperial capital by the end of the decade. Other Hellenist
      churches may have had large numbers of Gentiles as well, though we have no
      direct evidence of this.
      There is no reason to believe that Jewish numbers grew at all during this
      decade. Only the Jerusalem church and the transformed Antiochene church
      were engaged in the Jewish mission, and the Gospel of Matthew is clear that
      neither church enjoyed much success. It is quite plausible that Jewish numbers
      even declined as older members died and were not replaced by new members.
      By the year 60 we can estimate about 800 Jews at the very most and some
      1,500 Gentiles in the Christian movement. Once again these figures are higher
      than the calculation of Stark, but they take into account the remarkable rate of
      Gentile conversions achieved by Paul and his co-workers.

      How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
      This trend towards Gentile numerical superiority would have continued in
      the next decade. The growth in the Pauline churches may have slowed with the
      arrest and death of Paul (c 64), but there is no reason to believe that it stopped
      altogether. Paul’s many co-workers presumably continued his mission. One
      event that did affect Gentile numbers, however, was the Neronian persecution.
      This persecution would have decimated the numbers of Christians in Rome and
      reduced to a large extent the overall numbers of Gentiles in the Christian
      movement. But an even greater disaster was to befall the Jerusalem church,
      which was to all intents and purposes wiped out in the year 70. The demise of
      this important centre of Christian Judaism left the struggling Antiochene
      community as the only major church living according to the Law-observant
      gospel. Smaller groups of Christian Jews may have survived as well – we hear
      of such sects in the later Patristic writings – but not in great numbers. At the end
      of this decade, we are perhaps dealing with a maximum of 400 Christians of
      Jewish background and a Gentile Christian population of around 2 500. This is
      again slightly higher than Stark’s estimate.
      The next three decades can be taken together. Christian Judaism, now
      locked in a fierce battle with Formative Judaism, would not have increased its
      numbers at all. In all probability it lost numbers either through death or apostasy.
      Conversely, the Gentile Christian churches were in a position to flourish. The
      church in Rome soon recovered from its persecution, and grew considerably in
      size. The Book of Revelation alerts us to the fact that there may have been
      sporadic persecutions of Christians in Asia Minor towards the end of Domitian’s
      reign (c 96). This may have led to a slight loss of membership in that region, but
      the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch, written in the early second century, bear
      witness to a strong Gentile Christian presence not long after.
      If we accept Stark’s figure of 7 530 as the total Christian population at the
      end of the first century (so too Hopkins 1998:204, 206, 212), then they can be
      divided into something like 400 Jews at most (mainly in Antioch) and 7 130
      Gentiles dispersed around the Mediterranean world. In percentage terms this
      means that 5.3 per cent were Jews, while 94.7 per cent were Gentiles. I do not
      believe these percentages should be adjusted even if we consider Stark’s
      numbers as too low. A doubling of overall Christian membership to 15 060
      would translate to about 800 Jews and 14 260 Gentiles. However we calculate
      the Christian movement’s population at this point in its history, there can be no
      doubt that it was overwhelmingly Gentile and would continue on this path in the
      future.

      • Richard Long

        Craig, not to be argumentative, but does your source material, give an accounting for the thousands
        of Jewish believers baptized DURING Jesus ministry and previous to Cornelius in relation to how many might have subsequently become anointed? I am deferring to your evidence, but it seems like we’re missing some Jewish Christians here somewhere? Is there more to know?

        • Craig Knight

          The only scripture that ever states anything about the numbers of Christians is at Acts 4:4 Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin

          1The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

          The Bible really doesn’t say much besides that number in Acts mentioned by Luke. Some encyclopedia’s say there were a million Christians at the end of the 1st century but many people debate that number as way too high. Most put the numbers as too high from the digging I have done.

          • Richard Long

            That is a fair and reasonable answer I can accept without having to demand precision. The only real reason for even needing to know, IMO, is if one wants to engage in census taking, which I consider to be at best, ill advised, and at worst, asking for Jehovah’s displeasure.

            • Craig Knight

              The only reason the numbers of 1st century Christians interests me is because of the 144,000 number. Some ex JW’s say that in the 2nd century there were hundreds of thousands of Christians or even millions thus the 144,000 was already filled. But that reasoning is false because the apostasy was already long underway and God’s name was already hidden from view. So they may have called themselves Christians but we know they were in darkness already except for a few of them. Just my opinion but I think the Apostasy was full blown by 125 ce or so. If in 1935 there were close to 100,000 JW’s who were all anointed then there had to be no more than 30 to 40,000 true Christians by 125 ce or so for the numbers of the anointed to make any sense. One can only guess since the Bible doesn’t give us numbers of Christians in 96 ce when John died.

            • Richard Long

              You’ll think I’m nuts but the only reason first century Christian count interests me is a reasonably accurate starting point on which to found a postulate of mine.

              The premise I’d want to challenge is the claim of increase constituting divine blessing of the specific disciple making method. This premise comes into question for me due to the abysmal retention rate for JW’s. Essentially, I’d like to know if quality vs quantity would produce the larger flock of sheep with a higher percentage of the sheep unblemished and fit for sacrifice.

              I don’t do as well with the maths, as I should like the rate of growth to be reduced to an algebraic formula for each set of conditions (disciple making methods).

              The experiment would go something like: IF we assume JW’s are the one true faith grown from the apostolic era , and IF successful ministry having proof of God’s blessing is the accumulation of baptism to grave tried and true JW faithful, THEN, IF on the day of Pentecost 33 CE there were 3000 adult Christians and that year, AND IF they all trained and baptized two friends who would never quit, and the next year, they all trained and baptized two friends who would never quit, and on and and on till now, WOULD the “tell two friends” method have produced more “straight to paradise” JW’s today than the “spirit directed” the public marketing of the modern era?

              Fun, but my reach exceeds my grasp on this one.

            • Craig Knight

              If growth was a sign of God’s blessings then we gotta join the Muslim’s! Ha ha! There is no way to get to the numbers, they just aren’t in scripture so I guess we can leave it alone. No use speculating 🙂

            • The Raven

              Is that the number in 1935 after the earthly hope was revealed to them?

            • The Raven

              How many claim to be anointed at present? I’ve heard the number has increased. If true what year did that start to happen?

            • Craig Knight

              Here’s some good info:

              The decreasing number of the remnant was used as proof that the end is about to occur.

              “Six Convincing Lines of Evidence” that we are in the Last Days. …
              Sixth, the number of genuine anointed disciples of Christ is dwindling, though some will evidently still be on earth when the great tribulation begins. Most of the remnant are quite elderly, and over the years the number of those who are truly anointed has been getting smaller.” Watchtower 2000 Jan 15 p.13
              “Over the past seven years, from 1974 to 1980 inclusive, Jehovah’s Witnesses have made steady progress. Their growth is healthy. Only as to Memorial partakers has there been a gradual decline, which is in accord with Scriptural expectations.” Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses 1981 p.31
              Is this what has been happening with the number of anointed partakers over the years? The accompanying graphs show otherwise.

              YEAR PARTAKERS
              2000 8,661
              2001 8,730
              2002 8,760
              2003 8,565
              2004 8,570
              2005 8,524
              2006 8,758
              2007 9,105
              2008 9,986
              2009 10,857
              2010 11,202
              2011 11,824
              2012 12,604
              2013 13,204
              2014 14,121
              2015 15,177
              2016 18,013

            • The Raven

              Thanks, Craig. Thats a significant increase.

      • The Raven

        I am not so sure all first century Christians were anointed. this may shed some light on it:
        https://e-watchman.com/baptisms-and-anointing/

        • Craig Knight

          Thanks for sharing that article. Apollos wasn’t aware of the anointing yet God’s spirit was with him. That’s a great point but once He was taught the truth about being anointed then He did become anointed. Once Christians understood the heavenly calling then they all were anointed. Paul only preached the heavenly calling to all the Gentiles not some going to heaven and others going to the earthly hope. But to clarify, I meant all true Christians who were taught the truth directly by Jesus or the Apostles. Once the apostasy set in after John died then the choosing was slowed way down because of false teachings. A good example is the fact that all the Bible students in Russel’s day were all anointed including both my grandparent’s. It wasn’t until 1931 – 35 that the Great Crowd was introduced. The NT scriptures are speaking mainly to the anointed. Not once was the earthly hope mentioned except for the vs that says the meek shall inherit the earth and the Great Crowd of Revelation. At least that’s how I understand it.

          • The Raven

            Ok. Now that you clarified that I understand what you mean. I’m still inclined to think some who were baptized after christ died understood that not all would go. John the baptist being an example of one who would be here on earth. I’m sure everyone knew about him at the time. Do you think others may have also accepted what christ said about the earthly resurrection and although at the time were lead by spirit did not recieve gifts? Who were they speaking to when they warned about partaking of the evening meal if not those with an earthly hope?

            • Craig Knight

              John was beheaded before the heavenly hope was opened up at 33 so we can assume John will be earth bound. I always assumed that all Christians before the apostasy started were anointed like all 120 were anointed at Pentecost. The idea that one would refuse immortality with Christ never crossed my mind. But I suppose it very possible that some would desire life on earth. That’s a whole new point for me to think about. What scripture are you referring to in your last paragraph?

            • The Raven

              I was using John as an example of one who would be here on earth. If I’m not mistaken he was very well known among the Jews before Christ began his ministry. Christ said this about him:

              Mt 11:11-15
              11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.+ 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.+ 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John;+ 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘E·liʹjah who is to come.’+ 15 Let the one who has ears listen.

              If they knew he would be here then I would say it’s possible others had that hope too.

              I don’t think someone can refuse anointing.Can they?Jehovah chooses them. If so I’ve never heard of that. I know that they can become evil. I am inclined to believe that not all were anointed but were followers.
              Christ spoke about paradise earth and many thousands heard these things about the resurrection. Surely many had hopes of being united with lost loved ones back then as well. There are distinctions made between the talks Jesus had with those closest to him and the crowds.

              I Also recall this scripture on the evening meal:

              1 Corinthians 11: 20-22
              20 When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal.+ 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the congregation of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Should I commend you? In this I do not commend you.

              27 Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.

            • Craig Knight

              Those verses sound to me like some were going to the Lord’s evening meal to just stuff their faces and were not appreciating the spiritual importance of it. Sort of like rice Christians. But I don’t connect those of the earthly hope in those verses. But still I think that’s a very interesting idea that some were just not called then. I like thinking on new ideas so thanks for passing along that idea. I find it very important to consider.

            • The Raven

              Yeah but would an anointed one have done that? I’m certain the Corinthian congregation knew the difference between the two hopes. Would it have been possible that some were not anointed but only there to eat? Some brought their dinner with them also to eat before and after.
              The other thing that made them identifiable was the gifts. They were also able to perform miracles. Those who were healed or saw those miracles and believed may not necessarily have been called also, but became ministers who preached the truth. I’d say they probably outnumbered the anointed by a large margin.

      • into the light

        Hi Craig, could you post the links to your sources? I’ve been visiting this site for a while and I see that linking to sources is not being practiced.

        • Craig Knight

          Thanks for the reminder I will do that from now on.

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    The last paragraph makes lot of sense. That is the last annoited ones will see Jesus first.

  • Isaac of Coimbatore

    The story of Jezebel, Ahab and killing of Naboth has deeper meaning. The vineyard of Naboth represents Christs’ congregation because as per Jeremiah 5:7 vineyard represents Israel. So Jehovah planted the true vine (John:15:1) Jesus into ancient Judaism that was Israel. So now the vineyard must be Christian congregation and naboth represents true annoited ones whom Jesus has entrusted the christain congregation (vineyard) who are the legal inheritors of the kingdom. So Ahab must be a powerful men or group of highest level within the society who dominate over the true anointed ones. So they must be imposters, man of lawlessness and even the board of directors. So Jezebel means organizations such as OSCE. The marriage between king Ahab and Jezebel foreshowed the society’s intimate association with worldly organization such as OSCE. In future OSCE itself will ask WTS to promote and make propaganda about world peace and achievemenst of new age religion through resources of wts what must be actually be done to Jehovah. This is like asking the vineyard of Naboth. Real anointed ones after seeing Jesus will appose any action taken by the MOL at that time MOL itself will falsely accuse the real anointed ones are intolerant. Then OSCE itself will take the action against real anointed ones, which is what was foreshowed by Naboths murder. Because at that time UN will be a world government and OSCE is a part of UN. Is my thinking correct? I have a whole article written by me.

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      Sorry, who is OSCE?

      • Craig Knight
        • black curtain

          This just bobbed up on my email, a bit old I know, but you know how to pick the questions that generate the most heat:-)))

          There
          is an ex witness on youtube who says He is of the anointed. He is of
          Latin origin and He is telling the JW’s to get out of Babylon the great
          since their NGO involvement. I don’t know if any of you have seen this
          guy but He seems to be another example of an angry ex witness who ends
          up fighting against God. Telling JW’s to leave the Org is something I
          would not want to be doing. Babylon the great’s connection with the
          Beast is political and as verse 18 says in the 17th chapter of
          Revelation – 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the
          kings of the earth.” WT doesn’t rule over the kings of the earth does
          it? Their involvement in the UN as an NGO was just another stumbling
          block for JW’s not proof that the disgusting thing showed up in God’s
          house. Reve 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

          “ ‘Come out of her, my people,
          so that you will not share in her sins,
          so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
          5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
          and God has remembered her crimes.

          When
          vs 4 says come out of her my people, is God calling good hearted ones
          from Christendom or for JW’s to flee the WT? Just tossing out questions!

          My answer is yes. Jehovah is talking to his people where ever they are. Your question should not by denomination but but of religion. It was Rutherford who said that ALL (his emphasis) religion is an artifice of Satan WT 1947, ergo propter hoc ad hoc.. get out!
          kindest regards bc

          • Burt Reynolds

            It may only be grammatical, or due to translation, or even a collective -which would be unusual for the bible to be so loose in its directive – but as you rightly quote, the bible says ‘get out of her…’ Her, being the subject, thus pointing to a definitive. It would seem then that this Her, is a specific and not a conglomeration of religions including the watchtower. It can only, presumably, be one or the other. But yes, of course Jehovah would at some point, call his people to him as he did Noah, as he did Lot, both of whom lived in the mire of humanity. In what way these modern ones will be called out, would be a different question, because it appears that there has to be some heartfelt faith required in the person, for Jehovah, if not an actual knowledge of him. Perhaps it is safe to say, that a person’s heart needs to acknowledge the creator, even if he ‘cannot be found’ at that time. Is that sufficient? I hope so, because all religion today is a travesty of lies and greed.

            So surely ‘Her’, would be a specific, as all religion is going to be destroyed. How will the guilty come to know their crimes if they do not know of their criminality? How can you be untrue to a person you have never met? That being the case, the Her must have meaning to Jehovah, as much as the criminal within it, has knowledge of his crime. And as we know, Christendom does not, for they condemn themselves.

            The related scriptures must also have meaning- Lord, did we not prophesy in thy name and cast out demons….I will say to them, get away from me you workers of lawlessness, for I never knew thee. And it appears that honest ignorance of Jehovah is punishable by a number of strokes, either few or many according to responsibility, not annihilation and consequently, may apply to those who languish in ignorance Christendom, but have appreciation for their creator. So who are these workers of lawlessness that think they do the will of the master?

            We could point to the clergy and honour them with insight and say it applies to them, in which case getting out of that ‘Her’ would have meaning. But to do so, we have to credit them with an honest understanding of Jehovah, and of his will, and of deliberately ignoring it in opposition to him. Can we really do that?

            So who can we say that of? We claim to see the significance of the watchtower and as such, we have aligned ourselves with it in the spirit of that understanding – you point out that you would never disuade people from attending. If you thought it wrong, surely you would speak up out of love for that one taking a wrong course. And in days of yor, the command to get out of her, applied to a specific people. I can think of no more creditable organisation from which to get, than the watchtower. Not because of what they don’t know, like Christendom, but because of what they do know, and which sets them apart.

            • Richard Long

              If “Her” is the WT and “Her” is BTG the great harlot riding on the back of the scarlet colored wild beast, you might have just knocked down the walls of “Jehovah’s Household” and left Christendom unscathed.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Did I really say that? Where? You don’t surprise me in the least, but you had better point out where so that I can correct it! I thought I said that Christendom was going to swept away with the rest, but maybe I’ve gotten confused. Not too difficult for me.

            • Richard Long

              In this instance, i was the one who became confused. Apologies, dear brother.

            • Burt Reynolds

              No need to apologise Richard. I would far rather someone points out any blunders I make than say nothing. If we can’t take criticism then that’s a bit of a poor show, especially considering what criticism is coming our way sooner or later. It’s easy to misread me, I know that so don’t worry. How are you anyway? Is life treating you well or are you counting the days to the next holiday? There’s no escape when you retire you know….you just count the days until there is some work to do……or make it yourself! I’m busying myself making a tool box…it won’t be long before I have more boxes that tools. Bible boxes are out of fashion at present…

            • black curtain

              Burt well said and I do agree, with minor exception, “If you thought it wrong, surely you would speak up out of love for that one taking a wrong course.”
              I think I do that, but one can’t always say what they think should be said. Discretion is helpful. At least on that issue.

              It is quite clear that you can’t always advise people with a frame of mind on some issues, and that issue, is one of the hardest. When you disagree on that for many it hurts as deep as anything I know. (2 Corinthians 10:4) 4 “for overturning strongly entrenched things.”

              Think of people who refuse to associate with their own flesh and blood. Not even talking to their beloved family member at the the behest of their religious colleagues. Isolation of people is one of the cruelest forms of torture that I know of.

              Because of so much personal emotion and heartfelt energy that religion generates it messes with peoples mind worse than any other thing I have seen and for reasons not altogether clear why.

              But coming back to your thoughts on “getting out of her,” every religious group that I have come across think that they are the chosen ones. JW’s have been affected by this as bad as any group I know. Where JW”s have snatched a march on the others however is by calling themselves “Jehovah’s Witnesses” (trademark registered).

              The problem here is, that this has been so ingrained (2 Corinthians 10:4) 4 “overturning strongly entrenched things,” is so difficult that reason flies out the window when questions walk in the front door. The question is, is that title, “Jehovah’s Witnesses” … a correct application for everybody? Has it been settled yet as to whom they are are?

              My wife and I began discussing this matter today and the question arose who are Jehovah’s “people”? The only logical conclusion we could come to was that it refers to the remaining anointed, who are the ones that Isaiah 43:10 seems to refer as Jehovah’s witnesses (lower case w, not a title) who are called for the defense, regarding wicked allegations made by a renegade angel, in the final court case over the issue of universal sovereignty, in heaven itself. When that is done that angel is sent to a prison planet.

              So when it comes to “getting out of her,” the “her” must refer to the great Harlot, BTG to which all religions belong. (Revelation 17:5-6) . . .“Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots
              and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman
              was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the
              witnesses of Jesus.. . .” Further to this, and this is very hard to correct in JW’s, but all religions claiming to be christian are defined as being members of Christendom. Just look at any dictionary;

              Christendom

              [kris-uh n-duh m]

              Examples

              Word Origin

              noun

              1.

              Christians collectively.

              2.

              the Christian world.

              3.

              Christianity.

              But JW’s refer to “Christendom” and themselves as no part thereof, as if they are not covered by the definition. Little things like this make it hard to say everything without upsetting somebody.

              It is interesting as well that JW’s are defined as a religion yet Jehovah never ever gave anyone a religion. That too, is hard for people to understand, some refer to the Israelites and their religion. Jehovah never gave them religion he gave them LAW. Jesus came to fulfill the LAW, not religion. So why would Jehovah change all of a sudden and imitate Satan’s artifices? Does that help with Rev 18:6? I think that is enough for now and I am going way to far for today.
              kindest regards to you Burt
              bc

            • into the light

              It is interesting as well that JW’s are defined as a religion yet Jehovah never ever gave anyone a religion. That too, is hard for people to understand, some refer to the Israelites and their religion. Jehovah never gave them religion he gave them LAW. Jesus came to fulfill the LAW, not religion.

              Thanks for bringing this point up. To me religion implies human leadership and traditions by default.

            • Richard Long

              To me, religion implies a construct of Satan by default.

            • Richard Long

              Hi bc,
              Agree wholeheartedly with every said here with the tiniest exception – one which, however, will cause an implosion following your explosion in the psyche of some – that being the issue on the docket in the heavenly court.

              It is the assessment of many more learned and spiritual than I that “universal sovereignty” has never been at issue, the terms “universal sovereignty” or “vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty” never having been found in any source copy of scripture nor even the NWT are instead a unique construct of Rutherford, essentially a false flag around which to rally his adherents. One must decide for themselves whether they believe Rutherford’s “inspiration” to be of Holy or unclean Spirit, but it is preposterous, IMO, to think in terms of Almighty God undergoing trial under prosecution by Satan as if He might have committed some error and been compelled to answer for it as is WT dogma. And in what court is the prosecutor ever found guilty and bound to sentence?

              Whereas scripture does indicate that heavenly court case will result in “the vindication of Jehovah’s name”, one might be more well founded to consider Satan on trial for a distinguished and prolific career in slandering to the extreme the good name, or good character, of his blameless and long-suffering Father.

              And for the “Jehovah’s House” crowd, Can anyone holding to the Rutherford dogma really substantiate a claim of “knowing Jehovah” having misidentified the prosecutor and defendant in the most profound court proceeding in all of history past, present, and future? And having made the argument for JW”s being the exclusive “House of God”, and further seating themselves in the judgement seat with the “continual sacrifice” of proclaiming all others already tried and condemned as instructed and commanded to to by the WT, can any individual really substantiate a claim of either never having been prisoner or having already escaped BTG?

              Blessings, RL

            • black curtain

              Richard, as always very thoughtful. On the matter of “universal sovereignty” (and I always wonder should I say more? Would it be readable?) I think I understand your point well enough to say that has Jehovah lost his universal sovereignty?

              Quick reply… NO. He cannot. What is happening and I am at fault for not clarifying my use of that term. I referred to the heavenly court case where the wicked ALLEGATIONS were made against Jehovah’s sovereignty, in other words there has been a challenge to it. A challenge doomed to complete and utter failure.

              The challenge to that sovereignty however has been widespread, in fact universal, hence the fight by Christ and his forces to cleanse the heavens, it was not an issue just confined to humankind. I had all this in my mind when I wrote it,couldn’t you read my mind so that you knew:-))) ??????

              The above is what I think you were seeking, at least some sort of a legible reply was needed. Jehovah has never lost his sovereignty.

              Just looking at the impossible impossibility, if he did lose it to Satan, what did Satan think Jehovah would do if he lost? Slink to some quiet corner of the universe, but keep on supplying the power to run it to Satan? Not going to happen.

              So you were right to object, sustained!
              kindest regards bc

            • Richard Long

              I agree that to attempt try the matter here is both futility and a cruelty to those onlooking not prepared to deal with the fallout from the dismantling of what I consider to be yet another WT fallacy built atop a premise not founded in scripture. Nor am I capable of mounting such an argument beyond this point already arrived at. If one is so inclined to hear argument on the soundness of the WT premise made by persons capable of such, one may be found in two articles in review of the WT magazine (ws17/6) found on the Boerean Pickets website. No link may be provided due to respect for eW policy. The articles are entitled “Keep your eyes on the big issue” and “Uphold Jehovah’s Sovereignty”. If one cares not to, apologies if my conscience offends yours.

            • black curtain

              An interesting reply, and I am wondering if I understand what your saying. Why would my conscience be offended? If you have a different line of thought, then it is what it is. This is a forum to put forth observations on what RK writes and whatever spins off from that. I don’t recall one of your replies with such a serious tone. Everything OK?

              I have checked the site and the article and yes I agree with the article in principle so a very good call on your part. I have pasted a section below Vivlon.

              This makes sense if you don’t think too deeply about it. However, it falls apart completely when one considers all the facts. First of all, Satan is making a completely unsubstantiated allegation. The time honored rule of law – unless you subscribe to the French system of jurisprudence – is that one is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, it did not fall to Jehovah God to disprove Satan’s accusations. The onus was completely upon Satan to prove his case. Jehovah has given him over 6,000 years to do so, and to date, he has failed utterly.

              But Vivlon does not get everything right, in this instance see the article below regarding French Jurisprudence from the NYTimes.

              http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/23/opinion/l-french-law-presumes-accused-innocent-814392.html

              French Law Presumes Accused Innocent

              Published: May 23, 1992

              To the Editor:

              William Safire’s parochial reaction to the surprise of President Francois Mitterrand of France at the police officers’ acquittal in the Rodney King beating incorrectly repeats the old canard that French law “does not give the accused the presumption of innocence”(“Trashing Our Justice,” May 4).

              First, there is no express mention of the presumption in our own Constitution, but it figures prominently in the French Declaration of Rights (“Everyone being presumed innocent until found guilty . . .” Article 9). The French Constitutional Court has ruled that much of the Declaration, including the presumption, has
              constitutional force. The presumption of innocence has been the basis for legislation and judicial decision, and as recently as 1981 the Constitutional Court severely limited and overturned attempts to deprive suspects of their individual rights, partly on basis of the presumption.

              Me again. I must add that universal sovereignty is not a phrase I get hung up on. But universal Govt is an issue. Ephesians talks about a wrestling with Govt’s, so authority is at the heart of matters. Don’t get the mark of the beast (eighth world power) says Rev so loyalty to Jehovah is a critical feature for christians and we look forward to a messianic kingdom (Govt).

              But here is the rub to what my comments are about, Jehovah has no need to defend himself which Vivlon speaks about and I agree. The defence of Jehovah’s character comes from the “billions of angels” and his first born “son” in particular who are more than willing to do that on behalf of Jehovah. The whole of creation is dealing with this issue and those in it have to make up their minds where they stand. Jehovah is not obliged to give them life support if they CHOOSE bad options.

              Anyway, if I am not understanding what you mean let me know. Your ideas are always worth thinking about.
              kindest regards bc

            • Richard Long

              Thank you for your observations, bc. I remain open to correction and naturally will require it more than many in proportion to the volume of my commentary, which is probably too voluminous by any measure. I see the issue(s) at law to be Jehovah’s good character so egregiously assassinated by the gross slander of his rebellious son commencing with the lie told Eve and proceeding in exponential exacerbation to now and into the future with every unclean expression uttered from the mouth of demons and men. In commission of that ages long blasphemous felonious crime spree, the Devil has directly and murderously caused the death of the entire human race, permanently for many, and the corruption and subsequent imprisonment of a vast undetermined number of the spirit sons of God, also sentenced to permanent death (we assume), and creation of an authorized, unholy race of abominations, also necessitating the subsequent permanent (we assume) death of those ones as well as their human contemporaies, and in every other demon sponsored criminal enterprise enabling domination of man over man, Satan would not and could not mount a legal (or illegal) challenge to the sovereignty if His Father, the Almighty. He can say his Father had no right to rule all he cares to but never at any time would it become true. Do we find anywhere in scripture where Satan is recorded in saying to Jehovah that Jehovah’s rule is illegitimate? Or do we have to assume it’s implication? I think the highest crime, the motivation for all the other crimes, is an effort to test Jehovah by tempting Him to interrupt His self-imposed day of rest, thereby causing Jehovah to make Himself a liar. This is a rebellion of an ungrateful son, not the usurpation of a kingdom, in my opinion.

              You have previously brought to our attention the consideration of what would happen if Jehovah casually made the comment “black is white”. I think this is the essence of Satan’s effort, which is essentially a pact with death, because should Jehovah be found a liar, perhaps every word previously uttered would become lie and the ultimate result would find our heavenly Father once more alone.

              Perhaps I am overthinking it, but if the only or original or even just most prominent institution propagating the universal sovereignty doctrine is the WT, know liars, and I cannot find it in scripture, I will continue to consider my options.

              All peace and warmest, heartfelt regards to you, bc

              RL

            • Beverly kenyon

              RL, Black Curtain, is right….you are a top man! Loved this post of your’s. Brilliant points, especially, the Devil’s ‘ages long blasphemous, felonious, crime spree’! You’re so right putting it like that as for the Devil, it has been a long crime spree but in the Heavenly Father’s time frame it’s only been six days!

              Your other brilliant point is, ‘it’s not the usurpation of a Kingdom’ it’s the ‘rebellion of an ungrateful son’! That’s what it all boils down to. An ungrateful son on a suicide mission!

              As Guiseppe used to be fond of saying, his catch phrase……keep ’em coming! Btw, Joel, remember him from a while back, he stated using that catch phrase but he got it off Guiseppe if I remember correctly.

            • Richard Long

              And the final reference to conscience was for general consideration, given we are not corresponding in a vacuum. I’m confident yours suffers no infirmity.

              RL

            • black curtain

              Richard thank you for the reply I do understand more of your thinking and I find no cause for fault. You are still a top man.
              my very best to you bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have trawled that site on occasion and asked some questions that to me, were profoundly important. The response was to join thier meeting, or as I felt, to ask bland questions that needed nothing more than wt repitiore. The touchstone of truth is that regardless of the tortuous route we debate amongst ourselves, is that we more often than not, come to acknowledge the facts.

            • Richard Long

              Well, I ended up having to mount the argument for myself after all anyway. Anyone who viewed the offered material in hopes to be spared my bloviating may feel somewhat cheated.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I’m not sure that the issue of people’s personal hurt is relevant to any meaning that may or may not be placed on the watchtower, be it part or no part of Christendom. Many things hurt us, and of course I acknowledge that. You are of course absolutely right that shunning et al has a deep effect on people. Worse, that witnesses partake of it with self aggrandisement and a showy display through keeping what they feel, is Jehovah’s ruling. My sister and her husband shun me. I have lost all my siblings to religon, such as it is so I can grasp what you say. My brother has not spoken to me for in excess of thirty five years, my younger sister in excess of fifty years, and my elder sister, for thirtyfour years. I am now nicely immune of further hurt from that lot but I can appreciate that to each, is their own crisis. I think I have had more support from my father, and he has been dead fifty three years.

              Insofar as the subject matter goes, to be truthful I can see the sides of both arguments in their biblical resonance and reasonableness, but even with those arguments, I am not sure whether it matters if the watchtower is part of Christendom, or not. Jehovah will clarify it all for us and vent his anger on all those needing it. It is upon whom that interests me of course, but due to my relative ignorance in things prophetical, and my lack of insight, I cannot see enough to pledge my faith in it or whether such needs my faith in this detail. But we all are inextricably linked with prophesy.

              The fall of the watchtower seems to fit the prophesy for a multitude of reasons and that Robert has nicely explained….enough for me anyway. Taking what he has said and supported with scripture, it makes sense….no need to go though it again here….but whether i/we believe that or not, it is not actually critical to our salvation as far as the bible explains salvation. Though we need to know, it seems, what to get out of, of course but we can do that without positive identification of such by keeping ourselves under Jehovah’s direction through his word. (At this rate of congregational expansion into Babylon the great, we are going to need to get off the planet!)

              I’m not really convinced that the ‘mindset’ arguement holds water definitively speaking . If a mindset is based in truth, it is not technically a mindset is it? It’s a fact. Two plus two…..we believe that. We cannot be shaken from it. It’s not a mindset. Likewise, the fact that the watchtower (maybe) has hijacked the ‘truth’, for its own ends, will not detract from that truth one iota if the truth is what it is. And neither would that be a mindset, but a fact. Maybe that is why the bible says to make your mind over to do what is right, and that ‘right’ is defined for as as straightforwardly as two plus two. ( Of course this does not apply to the lies and wrongdoing the watchtower applies. Those really are a mindset to the gullible of course).

              I suggested previously that something has to fulfil the prophesy , otherwise what point the prophesy, and Roberts arguement is sound, given his insight, but that does not mean that it is fully revealed. ( I am talking about the explanatory word, not Robert as the explainer). But if Roberts site did not explain issues reasonably with reference to the bible, what is it that holds our attention? The bible speaks of teachers in these end times. Someone, be it flesh or stone, has to be doing that teaching. By test, we try those words. It may seem wishywashy to say it, but there must also be right hearted people that come from all over the world and from every religion, or more acurately, from every heart searching rightly for Jehovah……I agree with what you say about law/religon….because all the world is infested with man’s religion. We just don’t know the method or the extent of Jehovah’s love. For me, all I can do is what I see as right, and for all according to their faith, it is just that….Faith, and to pattern ourselves by Christ’s love for us and Jehovah’s provision. Also, is it wise to put weight on the Oxford English Dictionary to prove the scope of Jehovah’s wrath over religion? I am not questioning your argument over the application of Christendom, but mindset works both ways and one thing for certain is that Jehovah is angry…..angry at what, at whom? There has to be a direction for anger, a focal point and it has to do with faith, his son, and their qualities. It has to do with someone telling people about it, and thus it has to do with representation and it is here that the deciding line becomes yet finer, because to what degree does representation make a difference? Well the difference is in the truth of it, it’s value. To whom does that value and representation really belong in terms of the promulgating of it? I have not seen it in Christendom, though I have seen people in Christendom to be striving to do good by the world’s standards, not Jehovah’s. Whereas, if one strips away the trash from the watchtower, one does see a genuine preaching, a genuine love, a genuine striving according to the word, amongst some. The faith I see in Christendom though perhaps genuine, does not seem to be based on understanding the God of the bible but on mans interpretation of god. Of course, that is true of some in the watchtower, but the message remains true. There is a difference.

              I intend to leave the mechanics to jehovah. It’s jehovah I want to learn about. The rest is beyond me to a great extent. History or prediction is not going to save me or others, knowledge won’t hurt, but faith will help. Faith and love. I hope that everyone who wants to bend the knee to Jehovah will attain to life through his love. How, I’ll leave to Jehovah.

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              Will not human rights can take action on WTS if the affected person complaints regarding the effects of Shunning? You mean to say that OSCE will shield WTS?

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s nice of you brother. I like your reasoning too, the way you spoke with your brother. Very instructive example…gentle but true.

            • Richard Long

              Isaac, are the elders actually discussing what they can do TO you, as opposed to what they can do FOR you???? Or was the nuance of your comment lost on me?

            • Isaac of Coimbatore

              You added few points to my insight. Thanx

          • Beverly kenyon

            Your summing up of who is ‘my people’ makes sense BC and that term God uses isn’t just special to JW’s only. And isn’t even some here on this blog are waiting for the call to get out of ‘her’ acknowledging that even their org is a part of BGT.

            The priest/prophet Zechariah whose name means, ‘Yahweh Remembers’ wrote about the whore, BGT in Zechariah chapter 5:9-11….about a woman named ‘wickedness’ being thrown in a ephah jar and the jar being sealed with a lead lid (the lid being lead has meaning), and two women with stork wings (storks were considered unclean), flew away to Shinar, which is located in Babylon, with the ephah jar in order to build for her, a house which must be firmly established their upon her proper place.

            Don’t know if I’m wrong but that’s the meaning I’m getting from those verses.

            Loved your post as usual BC.

          • Craig Knight

            BC – I consider that a compliment! I think WT committed a great sin by joining the UN and God will call them into account but the WT does not in my opinion have anything to do with Babylon the Great. WT hasn’t ruled with the kings of the earth or beheaded the holy ones etc…it just doesn’t fit in my humble opinion.

            • Thinking

              I support your thoughts and reasoning on this

            • Craig Knight

              Well thank you my sister. The disgusting thing we know is the UN as the 8th king. The harlot rides the beast because she/ Christendom is deeply involved in politics WT is not. I would liken WT to Judah’s adultery seeking Egypt’s help. It was a sin against God and they will be punished for it. When the UN turns against the anointed isn’t that the disgusting thing in the holy place – God’s modern day temple?

            • Thinking

              Well Craig in the last two assemblies ..I certainly beleive the brothers know somthing is about to
              go down concerning them/us..
              They know because they are there right with the OCEA Or whatever it’s called…I always get the abbreviation wrong sorry…they basically have been telling us to prepare to be left with NOTHING!!…not even a bible….it’s very pointed..probably because the UN in another form or how ever it unfolds will turn on us…
              In the last assembly they said the GB have made mistakes etc etc…
              Sometimes it’s so obvious the wheat is allowed to talk..but you have to really listen for it..
              This assembly they also said….the new world is here
              …..meaning the NEW WORLD ORDER…but most would have missed that point…
              So something is going on..and it’s to do with the UN..and it certainly appears they know what it is.

            • Craig Knight

              That will be interesting to see what WT comes up with. I assume most witnesses and even some higher ups think this whole UN thing is just apostate propaganda stuff.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              And so Paul told his Hebrew brothers ‘let us therefore go outside the camp to Christ, because we do not have here in Jerusalem a city that remains.’

              So, he was helping them to get their minds divorced from the Jewish law, the temple in Jerusalem, so that they would be more ready to leave the city when the disgusting thing showed itself; that came in the form of the Roman armies, they entered the temple and so forth. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/trust-in-jehovah/ Read a lot more>Search results for: disgusting thing in the holy place
              https://e-watchman.com/page/3/?s=+disgusting+thing+in+the+holy+place

            • black curtain

              Happy to oblige with compliments. I will give my reasons for concluding why I have reached that conclusion about WT belonging to BTG label. I will try to be as brief as possible. Hmm!
              Just going back to C.T.Russell, who can second guess whether he would have let his little group stay as just a friendly Society rather than a corporation?

              1. When Rutherford Corporatised (Registered, recognised religion)** the WT in the (circa) 1930’s, he did so knowing this would exempt WT from paying taxes, would exempt ministers from serving in the military, investing without drawing tax liabilities, able to solicit donations again no tax liability. There is an old saying, ” he who pays the piper calls the tune.” In effect no tax liability is a subsidy from the Govt. Hence in my view they are riding on the back of the beast. So does this fit with what Jesus spoke of?
              (Matthew 22:16-22) . . .. 17 Tell us, therefore, What do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do YOU put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the head tax coin.” They brought him a de‧nar′i‧us. 20 And he said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 Well, when they heard [that], they marveled, and leaving him they went off.

              2. As you say, WT joined the U.N., why? What did they want from it by joining it? It is clear in my mind they wanted to use it, and exert influence over it, albeit large or small. Indeed they have used it. Access to U.N. transport, to officials, to information, but at a cost, at a hypocritical cost. They had to promote what they themselves labelled as the Satanic instrument to establish world Govt in opposition to the Messianic Govt by Christ. This they did through the WT and Awake Mag’s (this is required by the NGO agreement with the U.N). If you are a member of an organisation, a paid up member, like a shareholder, then if there is a call by the organisation for money or support then it goes to the members for those things. Which is saying, if you belong then you are responsible for what your organisation does, and U.N peacekeeping troops have been known to commit theft and rape to mention just a few of their crimes. Here again Jesus gives a very interesting answer. Legally, he did not have to pay tax because he is of the Royal House of David. References checkable, Jerusalem’s library had not been destroyed yet. But what did he do? Did he want to connect himself to the ruling establishment and isolate the ones humble in heart and mind?
              (Matthew 17:24-27) 24 After they arrived in Ca‧per′na‧um the men collecting the two drachmas [tax] approached Peter and said: “Does YOUR teacher not pay the two drachmas [tax]?” 25 He said: “Yes.” However, when he entered the house Jesus got ahead of him by saying: “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth receive duties or head tax? From their sons or from the strangers?” 26 When he said: “From the strangers,” Jesus said to him: “Really, then, the sons are tax-free. 27 But that we do not cause them to stumble, you go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish coming up and, when you open its mouth, you will find a stater coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you.”
              I don’t see parallels here just principles
              .
              Thus, I put my case that WT became part of BTG by their own choices. But you suggest, “WT hasn’t ruled with the kings of the earth or beheaded the holy ones etc….” By that criteria neither has the Christadelphians, the Quakers (Society of Friends), The Amish, The Mennonites, Christian Science, even the SDA’s and many others. But do they all have to behead “holy ones” to get a guernsey in the BTG team? Do they have to “rule” over the beast to be on its back or do they just have to give complicit approval to it? An act of worship if you like?

              WT thinks that everyone BUT them is a BTG player. By the way WT refers to BTG as the “world empire of false religion” (minus 1). The word false is an insert by WT that I can’t agree with. BTG is the “world empire of religion” no exceptions (The word false is WT speak).

              **Watchtower 1940 pages 88,104-105,
              page 88
              the people on earth who are of good will toward God have been steadily turning away from religion because they have seen that religion is a snare of the Devil and the Devil’s associates and is operated as a racket against the people.
              page104-5
              Again let the people be reminded that religion is a snare and a racket, originating with the Devil, the leader of the demons, and forced upon the people by the demons :

              As you can see Rutherford had this view of religion, ‘IT ORIGINAT(ED) FROM THE DEVIL… IT WAS FORCED UPON THE PEOPLE” (all capitals for emphasis) then he promptly turned around and arranged for the “friends” to become a religion. Are you getting the strong whiff of irony here.

              In fact, and I think others have a similar view on this to mine, that people like Tyndale, Irenaeus, Polycarp and many others who had no other option but to be a part of BTG but who were staunch defenders of truth at the cost of their lives in some cases and possibly were anointed.

              But all that is just my view, and why I have reached that conclusion. Consider it as you will. So much for being brief. My apologies.
              Your comments are always a good read.
              kindest regards bc

            • Richard Long

              Brilliant, bc!

              And I might add that the “beheading of the holy ones” can both include the marginalization of the anointed we can point to historically as well as the literal murders we are likely to see in the future.

              The WT, having “established” the false parousia, has (preposterously) “given itself” permission to announce the judgement of BTG which simply has not taken place yet, and declared itself no part, which obviously remains to be seen when the rightful Judge sits at that future date in the actual parousia.

              This is why I contend that one cannot say “1914 is a hoax” and than announce themselves “delusion free”. The false parousia which predated “1914” by 40 years in the case of JW’s, is the “hoax” and from THAT delusion, THAT “operation of error” specific to JW’s, have grown the vine of false religion which has given us “we are the exclusive channel of communication of God” and “the total estate of the house of God resides within the walls of our doctrine and dogma”, etc, and every other presumptuous blasphemy both unique to JW’s and common to religionists everywhere from all time. JW’s are merely one fairly insignificant, although somewhat disproportionately loud and obnoxious, vine in a very, VERY, large vineyard.

              Blessings, RL

            • black curtain

              Richard, well done yourself. Points that I didn’t think of, “can both include the marginalization of the anointed we can point to
              historically as well as the literal murders we are likely to see in the
              future.” I suppose that fits with throwing out some of the anointed from their ranks because they create blogs. No names, no pack drill, however, seems a decent chap though.
              And the small vine in a very large vineyard. It is always comforting when someone else sees the same big picture. I will refer back to this one as the opportunity arises.
              my very best to you and yours bc

            • Richard Long

              What is mine is borrowed and yours to use use freely.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Black Curtain, if the WT was in the dock, the jury would be returning a dirty GREAT BIG GUILTY verdict!!

              After I read Craig’s post about the WT isn’t a part of BTG I kept thinking of things to say to that as I didn’t agree with it at all. But I’ve just read your magnificent post and beyond all reasonable doubt they are very much a part of BTG! Thank goodness you’re a lawyer as its got to be the most brainwashed, deluded person to think the WT is NOT a part of BTG. Their members refer to being in ‘the truth’ but they craftily as you say, insert the word, ‘false’ when referring to BTG so they possibly can’t be part of false religion as we’re in the ‘truth’.

              ALL religions in the world has been infiltrated by the ‘Ruler of this World’ since the time of Nimrod and even Rutherford said as much to that fact.

              Ten years they committed spiritual adultery with the beast and would still be bang at it like all cheating adulterers if they weren’t caught out and was most probably sorry that they were caught.

              And they might not literally behead ‘holy ones’ but they do it figuratively/symbolically by their shunning practices, cutting people off, expelling from their KH’s their members for ridiculous things like smoking, etc, expelling their ‘anointed’ ones….wouldn’t that be like a beheading for that person.

              That was a brilliant point BC about all those other denominations. Absolutely Brilliant and WOW!!

            • Craig Knight

              BC = You make some great points here. I never thought about the paying of taxes like that before. However Ceaser as we know it today has allowed religion to not pay taxes so there is no sin in that as far as I can see. WT involvement with the UN is a wicked move and they will be severely beat by the master for that. Here’s my problem. The WTS is God’s modern day temple as Robert has explained. They have become stupid prophets and have a heavy judgement coming to them and thier UN blunder is especially bad. But how can the WTS be God’s modern day temple and BTG at the same time? That idea doesn’t make any sense to me. In 70 ce the disgusting thing was Rome in the midst of the temple so the wise Christians fled into the wilderness in 66. the unwise died horrible death’s in Jerusalem. The Christians at that time didn’t have any BTG then of course to deal with. Religions today are involved in politics and fight wars in the name of Jesus and support the beast thru nationalism. This is what separates God’s people from BTG. Christendom is BTG and God calls good hearted people from Christendom to get out while they still can. Or is God calling people from his modern day temple to get out of his temple? If so where are his people to go? It just doesn’t make any sense to me. They aren’t a part of BTG in my opinion they are just guilty of serious sin like the nation of Israel was. In the end the WT will fall but not as BTG. They should be seen as two separate entities. 1 = BTG and 2 = God’s modern day temple. BTG gets destroyed completely but faithful anointed ones and JW’s will be spared thru a refining. Just my opinion on the matter at this point. God’s temple cannot be BTG and God’s temple at the same time. 🙂

            • black curtain

              Hello Craig, took some time to think about this and I will have littered all, in my view, I assume etc, in other words just giving an opinion. Please keep that thought.

              I mentioned in my previous contribution that I wasn’t seeing parallels just principles. What you say about non paying of taxes to Caesar is true, but it is reasonable to ask why didn’t Jesus follow through with that? He had better rights than than WT did, not pay tax. So I see the principle of not accepting a “gift” from Caesar. Satan owns these things. These things have strings attached and they tend to legitimise your position from Caesars authority not from God.

              Everything is in the wording, trying to get the words right makes everyone stumble on something. As I demonstrated by Dictionary meaning WT is part of Christendom by simple definition. Just claiming not to be, doesn’t cut the mustard as far as the Dictionary world goes, and I tend to agree with them.

              The statement that “WTS is God’s modern day temple” is just a claim. It is not a fact that is provable. All of Christendom has stupid prophets by degree and RK as usual is right on the money about their stupidity.
              Then you ask “how can the WTS be God’s modern day temple and BTG at the same time”? As said I am not drawing parallels of that nature since I don’t think there is one. That being said what you are saying is that WTC (it should be a C for Corporation) WTC = Gods Temple. I have to say that is a fiction from my standpoint.

              (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) 16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.

              The fact is that the anointed as a class comprise THE Temple. Not some legal Corporate entity authorised by Caesar to exist.
              Since I don’t claim to be anointed I rely on the benefit of others who feel that invitation to explain if they have a sense of what Paul speaks of below.

              (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) 19 What! Do YOU not know that the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within YOU, which YOU have from God? Also, YOU do not belong to yourselves, 20 for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people. . .

              But you pose the question, and it is a good one, ” If so where are his people to go”? RK in the current article says “we should not suppose that the modern fulfillment will involve fleeing from a particular location. After all, Jesus said the tribulation is coming upon the entire inhabited earth. Where are you going to go”?

              I have been asked this question on many occasions and my answer always is, WHERE ARE YOU NOW? As usual RK is right on the money you can’t GO anywhere, but you should be in a rock solid relationship with Jehovah and Christ, and ready to face the future in full confidence of faith that you have one. Devotion and wondering where the why, when and what the WTC is doing should be of no major concern. Your hope has no connection with them whatsoever. To those that do they have become seduced by a golden calf spiritual trap hence the call of :
              (Revelation 18:4-5) 4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.
              You even refer to Christians having fled Jerusalem, because the Christians had no connection to the Temple, it was not their spiritual source of hope, but they were living in the wrong town at the wrong time. So many refused to listen and died.

              You mention,
              “They aren’t a part of BTG in my opinion they are just guilty of serious
              sin like the nation of Israel was. In the end the WT will fall but not
              as BTG. They should be seen as two separate entities. 1 = BTG and 2 =
              God’s modern day temple. BTG gets destroyed completely but faithful
              anointed ones and JW’s will be spared thru a refining. Just my opinion
              on the matter [of] judgment.’

              I think there is some definition problems with this one above. The Temple is the body of the anointed not the WTC. Two different things. If what you suggest is correct where does RK fit into this? They threw him out for publishing the truth. There cannot be two temples of truth. RK needs no validation from WTC. It doesn’t make sense. In my view. Wisely RK isn’t starting another religion, that profession is full up already.

              Just on the matter of the Temple, you seem to me to be treating the Temple as a religious institution, hence the parallel, my apologies if that is wrong, but the Temple was a building established by Law, not religion. The WT decided it wanted to be a religion. One is apples the other oranges. Babylonish religion was around in Israel at that time. The Pharisees as a sect (drew its manifesto from the captivity period) but there was no room for sects in Israel under Law. The Ten tribe portion of Israel fell away to Babylonish religion. The Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection. Saul went the the Witch of Endor, others did too. Jerusalem was stalked by a hundreds of different concepts, radically different from each other and the Law itself.

              That is enough from me, thanks for the chance to reflect on all these things
              kindest regards to you Craig bc

            • Beverly kenyon

              Nailed it again Black Curtain! Superb!!

            • Richard Long

              More brilliance, bc!

              When I read: “Wisely RK isn’t starting another religion, that profession is full up already.

              I thought to myself, “Yes, that market is so saturated, WT has only managed to become a “me too”, a bit player carving out a niche in the marketplace”. “Marketplace”, because this is not some mere exchange of information going on – words and ideas are being bought and sold .

              Much more could be said in support of your reflections, but none of them are necessary, so I refrain.

              RL

            • Bklyn Kevin

              We should be asking this question “when will the watchtower tract society become fully part of Babylon the great?
              In other words the watchtower tract society is still in her infancy and although the watchtower tract society is clearly showing not only the signs of rebellion that has brought major reproach on Jehovah’s great name she the watchtower is still not fully part of Babylon the great just yet, that happens when Jesus Come’s in his authentic Parousia and they the watchtower reject Jesus’ and become Antichrist – you see unlike Christendom who are clearly Antichrist with their Trinitarian teachings from their inception where’s the watchtower still teach’s the the basic truth by professing Jesus is the son of GOD as well as many other truths.

              The Antichrist Is Coming!
              Excerpt:
              Whatever the case, at the coming of Christ the Society will have served its purpose, at which point it will then become a snare. Or as Amos 5:5 states: “and as regards Bethel, it will become something uncanny.”

              Isaiah the 29th chapter foretells that Ariel will be besieged and encircled by pointed stakes, which is exactly what Christ prophesied would befall Jerusalem during the conclusion. As regards Ariel the prophecy states: “You will be brought low; from the ground you will speak, and what you say will be muffled by dust. Your voice will come from the ground like the voice of a spirit medium, and your words will chirp from the dust.”

              In other words, what once served as a channel and rallying point for God’s people will become a misleading voice. “Like the voice of a spirit medium” signifies that it will become an instrument to channel the voice of Satan.

              “LIFE-SAVING DIRECTION”?

              Who can dispute the fact that the Watchtower wields absolute control over the spiritual lives of all of Jehovah’s Witnesses? For example, here is a quote taken directly from paragraph 17 in the November, 2013 Watchtower:

              When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.
              Why is it assumed without question that the Watchtower (“Jehovah’s organization”) will issue “life-saving direction” in the future? And why would God’s instructions appear impractical?

              crystalball2When Jesus forewarned us not to believe any reports – no matter the source – regarding the whereabouts of Christ, is it possible that the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the source of announcements and “life-saving” instructions regarding Christ being in the “inner chambers” of Bethel, in whatever form Bethel may exist then? Has not Jesus himself already issued life-saving instructions; namely, that we should not believe anyone who claims to have special knowledge or instructions regarding his whereabouts and that we should flee without delay when the disgusting thing stands where it ought not? If the Watchtower claims it will be the source of “life-saving direction” during a critical time, is it not setting itself up to stand in the place of Christ?

              While it remains to be seen whether an individual like Judas will ultimately emerge, taken in their totality the writings of the prophets and apostles, as well as the pattern of the first century, indicate that the antichrist will come from within Christ’s congregation. And given the fact that the Watchtower has been the source of the deluding influence, it is simply out of the question that the same institution that has promoted a faux parousia will be used by God to issue life-saving directions.

              Yes, there is no question about it, the Watchtower is the antichrist that is coming!
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/antichrist-coming/

              Read a lot more> Search results for: antichris
              thttps://e-watchman.com/?s=antichrist.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! Thanks kevin! Most folks don’t realize they have a lot in common if they’d just look.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Yes and the bible certainly agrees with your thought.
              Moreover, if you call out for understanding
              And raise your voice for discernment;
              If you keep seeking for it as for silver,
              And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;
              Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah,
              And you will find the knowledge of God.Proverbs 2:3-5.
              Read more>
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/proverbs/2/#v20002004

            • The Raven

              The fear of Jehovah was the first thing I truly understood. Burning forever in Catholicism’s hell didnt scare me. Ceasing to exist, did. I had to know more.

            • black curtain

              A good analysis, Kev. The level of debate and consideration on this site along with Burt , Beverley, Richard. Isaac, Craig, yourself and many others make the discussions on these topics so good to be involved in.
              While I put forward a view, I try not to be dogmatic about things but present a good argument that people will think about. The only thing I can add to that is that prophecy fulfillment can be fluid and I keep the option open of accepting a change of viewpoint where needed.
              It was an interesting thought about the palisade built around Jerusalem by the Romans. I think Craig Knight would have things to say about that. I am of a mind to say that a palisade is nearly built today, in the form of planks of legislation within the UN system that has legislatively surrounded BTG with laws, to enable with the stroke of the pen the removal of its existence in “one hour”, probably literal.
              The only point I have some wonder about and clarification, is the anti Christ will come within Christ’s Congregation.

              Christ’s Congregation is the anointed class, no question about that. So when he comes, and this is creating mental logistics for me??? Let me just switch here for a moment, the anti-Christ and the MOL are one and the same. The identity of the MOL/AC has had more changes of dress than Superman.
              One of my points is that the entire body of Christendom (and I am using the dictionary definition so that there is no confusion as to what is meant) have bumped Christ aside.
              The Pope is said to be the Vicar of Christ and sits on Christs throne effectively nullifying Christs role. If you read through the case of Menlo Park Cong of JW’s vs WTBTS of NY, you will find that WT’s lawyer clearly states; we are hierachical in authority, (we do not have autonomous groups), WE ARE LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN STRUCTURAL AUTHORITY, (capitals for emphasis and not verbatim quote, but meaning the same as).

              Unrelated to the above case, but as a sort of proof is this is WT letters…

              Vow of Poverty scanned from 2002 documents.
              ..
              Initial Cover Page 1 of 4
              VOW OF OBEDIENCE AND POVERTY to
              the ORDER OF SPECIAL FULL-TIME SERVANTS OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES
              As
              an ordained minister, wholly dedicated to Jehovah God. I hereby express my solemn desire to be recognized as a member of the worldwide Order of Special Full-Time Servants of Jehovah’s Witnesses
              (“the Order”). I vow as follows:

              1. While a member of the Order, to live the simple, nonmaterialistic life-style
              that has traditionally existed for members of the Order;
              2.In the spirit of the inspired words of the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 6:8) and the prophetic expression of the psalmist (Psalm 110:3), to volunteer my services to do whatever is assigned to me in the advancement of Kingdom interests wherever I am assigned by the Order;
              3. To be submissive to the theocratic arrangement for members of the Order (Hebrews 13:17);
              4. To devote my best full-time efforts to my assignment;
              5. To abstain from secular employment without permission from the Order;
              6. To turn over to the local organization of the Order all income received from any work or personal efforts in excess of my necessary living expenses, unless released from this vow by the Order;
              7. To accept such provisions for members of the Order (be they meals, lodging, expense reimbursements, or others) as are made in the country where I serve. regardless of the level of my responsibility or the value of my services;
              8. To be content and satisfied with the modest support that I receive from the Order as long as I am privileged to serve in the Order and not to expect any
              further remuneration should I choose to leave the Order or should the Order determine that I no longer qualify to serve in the Order (Matthew 6:30-33: 1 Timothy 6:6-8; Hebrews 13:5);
              9. To abide by the principles set out in God’s inspired Word, the Bible. in publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. and in policies dispensed by the Order, and to follow the directions of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses; and
              10. To accept readily any decision made by the Order*
              regarding my membership status.

              Date____________________
              Signature__________________
              Name (please print
              legibly)__________________

              A monastic order? The WT has closely modeled itself on the Catholic Church at least here.

              This is not hard to see that this is a monastic order.
              Note that this letter is dated 1/1/2002 but who knew? This has been kept secret from the R and F. Why the secrecy? Have they adopted Catholic practices? Was it kept secret because people would see similarities between them and Catholic Canon Law.
              Secrecy has a tinge of guiltiness. “Order” being a separated group with higher positions and status than the “rank and file”. Jehovah’s Witnesses with religious orders of Holy Men sworn to serve the GB and the “Order”????
              Is there some difference here from having a Pope? It has already been proved in
              court that the WTS is a Hierarchy the same as the Catholics.
              With vows of OBEDIENCE AND POVERTY????? Vows to men*??????
              There is something wrong here. Why would you swear fealty# to men? The clothes worn might be different to Catholic Orders but the end result is the same.

              The GB,whom Geoff Jackson labelled the GB as Guardians of Doctrine (GoD), during the Australian Royal Commission interview with him in Australia, which was a direct pinch from Pope Benedict’s view of the Church back in circa 2003. Jackson by doing this, not just my opinion, but others, has clearly bumped Christ aside as a bit player. You quoted what I call the “infamous quote” because of its implications.

              “At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”

              So if Christ comes back identifies his remaining bride members, at this point they are sealed, then who among them are the MOL/AC?

              I just wonder if Christendom as a whole becomes the MOL/AC including WT (but not the faithful anointed). It could be argued as you said that WT is not yet BTG, I will leave that aside. What is not arguable is that they are a part of Christendom and whatever ramifications that means.
              Very kindest regards to you BK

            • Richard Long

              Hi bc,

              Brilliant post.

              May I offer Mystique from X-men in place of Superman?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              black curtain Said” So if Christ comes back identifies his remaining bride members, at this point they are sealed, then who among them are the MOL/AC?.

              In the 43rd chapter of Isaiah, the very chapter that Jehovah calls on his people to serve as his witnesses, the same people whom God declares to be blind and deaf, are those who, at the time God speaks to them are in captivity – having been plundered by their enemies. Then these words of Isaiah will apply to them: “But this is a people plundered and pillaged; all of them are trapped in the holes and hidden in the prisons. They have been plundered with no one to rescue them, and pillaged with no one to say: ‘Bring them back!’ Who among you will hear this? Who will pay attention and listen for the time to come? Who has given Jacob for pillage and Israel to the plunderers? Is it not Jehovah, the One against whom we sinned?”

              Supporting Christ’s Brothers During Their Humiliation
              Excerpt>
              “WHO AMONG YOU WILL HEAR THIS?”

              In the 43rd chapter of Isaiah, the very chapter that Jehovah calls on his people to serve as his witnesses, the same people whom God declares to be blind and deaf, are those who, at the time God speaks to them are in captivity – having been plundered by their enemies. Then these words of Isaiah will apply to them: “But this is a people plundered and pillaged; all of them are trapped in the holes and hidden in the prisons. They have been plundered with no one to rescue them, and pillaged with no one to say: ‘Bring them back!’ Who among you will hear this? Who will pay attention and listen for the time to come? Who has given Jacob for pillage and Israel to the plunderers? Is it not Jehovah, the One against whom we sinned?”

              Needless to say the actual commencement of the presence of Christ will come as a stunning and humiliating development for Jehovah’s Witnesses, and especially the leadership. It will create a situation that will bring about the parting of ways between the wise and foolish virgins and the faithful and unfaithful slaves. Those judged to have been faithful – in spite of their having blindly embraced the 1914 delusion and all of the hokum attached to it, will then be granted entry into the Kingdom and commence the final phase of witnessing to the world as sealed sons of God – the true brothers of Christ.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/supporting-christs-brothers-humiliation/

            • Richard Long

              Don’t see how this answered the question from bc that you highlighted Kevin.

              The premise he put forward is: parousia commenced, bride identified and sealed but not yet martyred, identify MOL/AC among the identified and sealed bride. This is the challenge for all JW religion apologists that maintain the Israel of God can only come from among “anointed JW’s”. At the very least, we humans ought to stop attempting to tell Jehovah who his house includes. If the wheat and the weeds are all sown within the kingdom and the kingdom is God’s house and the kingdom is also the field where seed was sown and the field is “the world”, then we JW’s might at least consider the possibility we have built God’s house *a little too small* to shelter everyone Jesus claims as his own.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              If you don’t see an answer then perhaps you need to fully acquaint yourself with the bible along with heart felt prayer to Jehovah and I also recommend Robert Kings book. JEHOVAH HIMSELF HAS BECOME KING http://jehovah-is-king.com/truth/

              Also while you are studying please keep in mind all questions do not have a direct answer and are examined spiritually.

              But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
              Corinthians 2:14.Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-corinthians/2/#v46002014

            • Richard Long

              (sigh)

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a helpful scripture at Corinthians to keep in mind. I find the workings and seeming contradictions of the Father hard to understand at times. I don’t ‘wait on Jehovah’ or ‘research’ as the watchtower rattles on about, but go back to the spirituality and truth that is creation to ask myself the same questions and get the same answers that are irrefutable. I know it sounds simplistic, yet it is the hand of Jehovah himself that is the teacher in physical terms, for those of us who ere on the physical side of things! He has provided for us all.

            • Richard Long

              Yeah, I’m keeping it in mind, all right!

            • Daisy

              Just checked my Living Bible on the Corinthian scripture 2:14 you quoted Bklyn; it reads
              “But the man who isn’t a Christian cannot understand and cannot accept these thoughts from God (the wonderful things God has ready for those who love his Son, v.9) which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him, because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy spirit means”
              Doubt if Holy Spirit will be found by reading jw.org IMO brother.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Love it!

            • Daisy

              The word METAPHOR according to my dictionary reads;
              A figure of a speech by which one word is employed for another of which it is the image; a method of speech, or description, which likens one object to another by referring it to it as if it were the other.

              So a metaphor would describe the congregation of God as follows;

              The Body of Christ
              The Kingdom of God
              The Household of God
              The Temple of God
              And The Vineyard of God’s Son.

              Regarding God’s house, this metaphor is describing the family of God. “But, in case I’m delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the (ekklesia), congregation, of the living God, the pillar and support of THE TRUTH” 1 Tim 3:15 also Heb 3:6.
              As Jehovah is the Father of His household Matt 23:9 and Christ is the Son OVER the HOUSE OF GOD, those not following the TRUTH of God’s Word IMO are not members of the ‘family’ in God’s House. There are many more metaphors but I’m tapping on my tiny phone and I need a cup of tea, so…:)

            • Beverly kenyon

              Sooooo love this factual ‘eye opener’ of a post. Reading all that stuff about the ‘order’ looks like they’re full on rogue now. How can anyone who wants to serve God with a clean conscience want to be a part of the ‘order’? The WTC is coming across like some secret society with ‘secret handshakes’ and I dread to think what ‘secret rituals’ they’re performing behind the scenes.

              It’s like reading a review about a low budget horror B-movie cult film. Looks like they’ve become completely over reached by the ‘Angel of Light’. As an ex witness friend of mine says, ‘They’re completely ‘Angel of Lighted’!

            • black curtain

              Beverly you’re magic :-)))
              cheers bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              Are you not assuming that the dictionary definition of Christendom is as Jesus meant it to be so termed, indeed if at all? That is not a safe platform. The apostles would surely not recognise what is termed Christendom today with the enlightenment Jesus left with them or any part of it. It is not really possible to describe the watchtower in the same breath as Christendom….in my opinion of course…..because whatever the watchtower is, it cannot be judged on the same merits as Christendom. What part of Christendom can remotely be connected with Jehovah? In fact, it is easier to connect Christendom with paganism than it is with Christ. They can neither preach it or teach it, neither can they understand it or follow it consistently. But the issue is, they never did from Constantine down to today. The watchtower certainly did know whom it was representing and the greater its judgement will be because of that. Whom better from which to spring the man of lawlessness and the antichrist than the watchtower? How, with the utter filth that goes on in the churches, would anyone recognise a man of lawlessness? They have no status as preachers, no status as abiders of law, no name to follow, no Christ they can represent. It needs no morals to join and there is no disgrace in leaving and one can pay them to resolve ones sins. (Hmmmmm, I might join!) Is Babylon the great, Christendom? Maybe it just looks the part because its there. I have no idea, but I do think the watchtower and its demise will not be swallowed up inconspicuously with the churches. I think it will be very conspicuous indeed.

            • Richard Long

              Burt, bc can speak for himself, but I surmise he is, as delicately as possible, acknowledging that the dictionary and by extension the entire world of intelligent “not chosen” humans have one definition or set of definitions for “Christendom”, while the GB “chosen” and their apologists have another. Which is the less safe platform?

            • Burt Reynolds

              The only think that dissapointed me about Black Curtain’s reply was that he said Jesus did not write the Oxford English Dictionary . I could have sworn that he did. After all, in all the films I have seen of the life of Christ, he spoke very good English. A few americanisms, perhaps, but who am I to criticise?

            • The Raven

              Lol! That had me rolling!

            • Burt Reynolds

              I really wasn’t questioning the dictionary I can assure you, just that meanings evolve over time. I am sure BC didn’t view it as a challenge, but just another level search. At least that is what I drew from his reply.

            • Richard Long

              I am more than happy to allow bc to speak for himself and agree that in the light of his own words, mine regarding them should be thoroughly disregarded.

            • The Raven

              Burt I agree with everything you stated as that’s how I have understood this matter. What’s so interesting about this also is the fact that Christendom does not consider Jehovah’s witnesses to be Christians at all by their definition. So trying to tie them together will also get Christendom upset with them for it. lol!

            • black curtain

              Burt, Jesus never wrote the English dictionary so for obvious reasons he didn’t have them, Christendom in mind. I am just going by the defined terms we have otherwise we have a playing field with goal post that wanders all over the field with a mind of their own and nobody could offer words of certainty. When the British Parliament creates an Act or Regulation in the index is a list of words with a defined meaning. To ensure some sort of cognisance we have to define parameters. Conversation would be fraught with danger. That is all, no other inference.

              Jehovah did USE Christendom to some extent. It was courageous men and women like Tyndale that kept God’s word available to the common man in definable words that everyone understood (even though they didn’t have dictionaries;-)). Christendom did indeed recognise God’s name, although they sidelined it as much as possible, but it was there. There can be no doubt Jehovah caused them to preserve it (unbeknownst to “Christendom”) that they were being use to do so. Just go back over WT disc to see that, although I am sure you have read in the mags over the years how Jehovah’s name was preserved and WHO he used to do that. In addition to that, Russell certainly did not discover God had a name and was not a Henry Morton Stanley in November 1871 who gave rise to the popular quotation “Dr. Livingstone, I presume?”

              Rendering a service does not imply approval of the one providing the service. Your mailman may well be providing some illegal service in his spare time somewhere else but you still accept the service of his letter delivery without condoning whatever else he may be doing.
              The real issue of whether WTC is part of Christendom or not, IS NOT the different tenets or dogma. Why they are a part of Christendom is
              1) The WT is a religion.
              2) The WT claims to be christian (and they are)
              3) All of the above is true, but the worse part is that the one who caused the Society of International Bible Students to become a religion then promptly defined religion as an invention of the Devil, and forced upon the human race. Welcome to the world of Christendom.

              Therefore Christendom occupies its own particular space, of which by definition WTC falls, and comes under the umbrella of BTG, which is “the world empire of religion.” It is inescapable, even if I agreed with you, I would be avoiding the truth. The very notion of them becoming a Corporation has problems as well, but because no one (including me) wants to think that, why? Because we were deluded by their Dogma and their sincerity and we put trust in them. That hurts. You may be interested in looking how the Corporations morphed into existence and how they were crafted devilishly. Starting with the the “South Sea Bubble” for instance.

              It seems still very hard for people to recognise and get their head around the fact that (ancient) Israel’s system was set up by Law by Jehovah and not by religion. Every time they deviated from that, it was an immoral affair with BTG. Every time it cost them dearly. Can you see any parallels? Recent case in Canada, class action for $C66 million, for child abuse, just one example. National flags in KH’s in Mexico, some form of national service somewhere in Europe, escapes me at the moment where, a diluting of the position on blood abstinence in Bulgaria to gain some legal advantage.

              So interesting (rhetorical question)is the WTC and BTG going to cease to exist at the same time? In one hour? If the nations are doing the demise, and I think they are, are they going to write two sets of laws one for WTC and one for BTG? Is the UN obsessed with WTC and its demise? Perhaps, but there is a comparison from when Jesus was born. Herod was told about the messiah being born and would be a future legitimate king. He couldn’t allow that to happen, because he would have been deposed. He had no chance of finding this newborn child (seemingly), so what did he do? He ordered all the children two years and younger slaughtered. The nations don’t really differentiate one religion from another, so they take them all down, because religion is a scourge. As RK has pointed out, on a number of occasions christianity has a use by date and WTC is part of that group.

              Like you I have no idea how it will all play out. Prophecy that has been uttered does not go into mechanical detail. There is no manual. A simple example on that, Jesus said (Matthew 24:19-20) 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day;
              One explanation I heard regarding flight for pregnant women was that safety lay across the other side of the Jordan River. But in wintertime the Jordan was in full flood and crossing was extremely dangerous, for a fit man, let alone a heavily pregnant woman, and a woman nursing her child. I can see the sense of that warning. But does that mean for every pregnant woman, or nursing woman in this time period that they need to worry about flooded rivers? Obviously not. There are other issues to cope with for women and their children, and the big one at the moment seems to be the danger of enforced vaccines. But I don’t want to be sidetracked.

              Anyway Burt I like your reply because it makes me think about things
              kindest regards bc

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, I can agree with your reasoning. Thanks. It rounds out the issues and makes the prophesy more coherent and tangible. I must admit I like the subtlety of you humour, re: ‘diluting’ the position on blood abstinence in Bulgaria. Not only that, but Bulgarian wine in my youth was referred to as Bulls Blood.

            • black curtain

              Let us raise our glasses and drink to that, once more a drink of “bulls blood” and restored youth, that we should both live to see it, Jehovah willing, amen
              cheers bc

            • Bklyn Kevin

              black curtain Said “The nations don’t really differentiate one religion from another.

              That’s true but Jehovah does differentiate the two and here’s the Biblical proof.

              The man of lawlessness sets up a false Parousia as the Apostle Paul explained
              In other words this man of lawlessness exclaims that the Christ has already come
              and thats exactly what the watchtower tract society has been proclaiming for more than 100 years.
              So my question to you or anyone else who is interested in this topic- IS ” how could christendom on a whole be the man of lawlessness if they are not proclaiming that Jesus Christ has already come?
              This very fact not only differentiates the watchtower From christendom but also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the man of lawlessness exist within the watchtower organization be cause they are the only ones who are professing that the Christ has come.

              The bible’s definition concerning who the man of lawlessness is.

              Man of lawlessness (1-12)
              However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ+ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement* or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is hereThessalonians 2:1-2.
              Read more>
              .https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-thessalonians/2/#v53002001-

            • Richard Long

              Kevin, are you going to stand here and say that the WT or even Russell is the originator of the false parousia? Will you at least ask Robert if he thinks that is true first?

            • Bkyln Kevin hasnt said the Watchtower or Russ is the originator. the operation of error is by Satan who uses human agents operating within the WB&TS. they promote a false parousia and those who are calling on the name of Jehovah are allowed to be influenced by Satan’s agents making the WB&TS the idol proponent of Satan’s lies to find whether Jehovah’s witnesses wish to maintain a delusion or if they really love the truth

            • Richard Long

              Kevin said:

              “The man of lawlessness sets up a false Parousia as the Apostle Paul explained
              In other words this man of lawlessness exclaims that the Christ has already come
              and thats exactly what the watchtower tract society has been proclaiming for more than 100 years.”

              Best sit aside and let him explain it himself DA. We must let his words be his words and mine be mine.

            • “man of lawlessness sets up a false Parousia” ” exactly what the watchtower tract society has been proclaiming”

              thats correct. “the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan”. because the lawless one is allowed to operate within the WB&TS, the WB&TS has been proclaiming a delusional influence over Jehovah’s witnesses that Jesus parousia has already occurred

            • Richard Long

              Congratulations to us all! We are now all graduated with honors from the WT school of only considering part of what a person says to prove a point that person wasn’t making to begin with.

              Best sit this one out, DA. Thats twice.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Robert king has already spoken on that matter but obviously you have neglected to read his bible based thoughts on the matter.

              Chapter 10 – Man of Lawlessness
              Excerpt:
              Although Jehovah’s Witnesses are laboring under the impression that the clergy of Christendom constitute a collective man of lawlessness, it is undeniable that of all the so-called Christian groups in existence today one organization stands alone as the source of presumptive Bible-based “inspired expressions” announcing the presence of Christ. That organization is, of course, the Watchtower Society!

              Exactly as Paul foretold, through a variety of verbal messages delivered in public talks in kingdom halls and at assemblies and conventions and through authoritative, apostolic-like letters and publications, the Watchtower is recognizably the undisputed fountainhead of a steady stream of messages heralding that the presence of Christ began in 1914 and “that the day of Jehovah is here.”
              http://jehovah-is-king.com/man-of-lawlessness/

            • Daisy

              Steady on Bklyn; Robert’s ‘ bible based thought’s are just that…thoughts …as profound as they are; thoughts along with reason and logic Robert himself has said so. Those thoughts have certainly galvanised me into bible study like never before! I’ll be forever grateful to him.
              That’s for sure!
              Also Robert has explained that the MoL is also known as the Antichrist.
              But didn’t John write “just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now MANY antichrists have appeared”, so many antichrists are operational throughout ” so called Christian groups today” ; not forgetting that satan’s power and deceptions are “misleading the entire inhabited earth” especially within “religions” that claim to represent him. As don’t all religions profess to be the true one.
              As scripture tells us that Christ is the head of the congregation/church/ecclesia.. .Any Christian “religion” headed by men has an Antichrist structure because Christ and Christ alone in the Head.
              The only thing I could find about any group heralding the premature parousia were the Adventists who thought 1844 was the year.” The Millerites The Day of Disappointment” saw many adherents abandoning their leader but a lady called Ellen White a prolific writer influenced by demons confirmed and authorised William Miller:s prophetic hoax .
              So its nothing to be proud of to identify yourself as the true religion when its based on a lie.

            • Richard Long

              And I’ll just add that for me, the most excelling feature of Robert’s work is his ability read a specific prophecy that says: “you can expect A, B, and C to happen to Israel” and pinpoint the fulfillment of A and B, while showing C has never been fulfilled to date. This is far more valuable than the type/antitype cack the WT engages in to keep us all mesmerized. If I didn’t believe Robert’s ability to see what he sees and say what he sees wasn’t helped by HS, I would not still be here. That is, if I had actually read the book I paid for 😗

            • The Raven

              I found something interesting in that link, Kevin.
              “But according to the Watchtower’s explanation the apostasy that Paul foretold took place almost immediately after Christianity was established. And while there is no question that the conglomeration of religions making up Christendom today originated in that great apostasy all those centuries ago, still, Paul’s warning intimates that there is to occur another apostasy; an apostasy that occurs immediately before the presence of Christ and the great day of Jehovah; an apostasy emanating from within the restored Christian temple itself.”

              I also found this:
              https://e-watchman.com/behind-1914-really/
              “As the Watchtower has acknowledged, C.T. Russell adopted pyramidology in conjunction with the Dispensationalist’s seven-times chronology a full forty years before 1914. All during the run-up to that fateful year anticipation was building for 1914. And seemingly the First World War erupted right on cue.”

              The MOL obviously springs from Satan and the WT has adopted His views. I take it that’s what Robert has been saying from what you posted. I’d like to know how an apostasy near the time of the end can spring from Christendom which is and has been apostate since virtually the beginning? . I haven’t heard any new pronouncements or Papal Bulls yet which changes anything they have said or done have you? It’s interesting that Christ starts with Jehovah’s house FIRST as scripture states and afterwards… deals with everyone else. I wonder who might THAT be? lol!

              So, it really doesn’t much matter which org or person first came up with this in whatever year the fact remains, it’s Satanic. The WT org has in fact made this known worldwide for over a 100 years. 1874, 1914…whatever, right? ALL their prophecies are based on this lie. No one else has done this to that extent. It’s odd how some folks will insist on shoehorning a square peg into a round hole and say it fits because the world defines it as such. Well…I think what matters here is how Jehovah defines it.

              Thanks for that link Kevin. You always come through. I appreciate your patience with me. 🙂

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Raven said I’d like to know how an apostasy near the time of the end can spring from Christendom which is and has been apostate since virtually the beginning?.
              Good question, thanks for that point I hope you don’t mind if I use it.

            • into the light

              What I’d like to know is how is it that god will take a people for his name if JWs are his people? Will he take a people out from his people?

              Hosea 2:23

              That’s some inception stuff right here https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/64050820ee30731ce054c3aea120be563f5397289ff26703f137ce4cf9cf82e9.gif

            • Bklyn Kevin

              “You Are My Witnesses” – When?.
              So, the call for his people to serve as witnesses to the Godship of Jehovah is to come about after the tribulation —after “Jerusalem” has been made desolate. Again, Jesus spoke of a great final witness to be given to the governors and kings of this world then: “You will be brought before kings and governors for the sake of my name. It will result in your giving a witness. Therefore, resolve in your hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make your defense, for I will give you words and wisdom that all your opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute.”
              Read more> https://e-watchman.com/you-are-my-witnesses-when/

            • The Raven

              You are very welcome Kevin. You’ve helped me and so many here for a long time and I’m very happy you found something I’ve commented on to be useful. 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s true too!

            • black curtain

              Kev thank you for the thoughts on this, you may care to look at this http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/08/the-end-of-the-world-is-coming-again-this-time-its-on-october-15-6984608/, this is the latest I have seen. I haven’t gone to the trouble of posting many of these things because there IS so many of them. If you are taking main stream large christian religions like the Catholics, or the Episcopalians that don’t claim publically that Christ has returned, however there are very small enclaves within them that do. Most of the Evangelical churches are predicting Christs return or similar. Just on that alone I can’t agree with your view. Even if they didn’t then it is hard to fault that since it would be a more truthful position than WTC. It is what it, is an opinion, the only thing I can say is we will know somewhere in the future, hopefully not too far away.

              What the WTC preaches, teaches does not exclude it from being part of Christendom, that is simply a mindset. I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that the WTC through its legal representation said “we are the same as the Catholic Church’, that is on the public record. It is what the WTC thinks about its self. I didn’t say it I have simply quoted it. They went on further, they said we have a “hierarchical structure” in confirming that they have clergy. For years we have all wandered around saying this Org has no clergy that was a blunt lie, but WTC has said , WE ARE THE SAME as the Catholic Church, I know that there was a small get out of gaol on that one, because then the maxim was “we don’t have a paid clergy”, which was very self righteous, but just word games since elders are legally defined as clergy and they receive clergy privileges from the secular authorities. A good friend of mine is a hospital chaplain, along with all the other clergy Rep’s. WTC does pay small stipends and feed and clothe others that work for them, and they did run monastic orders, probably still do. Where are monastic orders in the scriptures????? Only place I am aware of is in Christendom and BTG.

              But that still isn’t the point. It is WTC that (used to) claims they were no part of Christendom, I don’t see that claim much these days, which from my standpoint, that is WT Speak, it is word semantics to avoid the truth, and most people fall for it. There is no need for me to define it further but I will say it again, the issue is not dogma or tenet’s it is whether you claim to be Christian that puts you within the meaning of being in Christendom. Just because some religious group claims otherwise is not going to intimidate Academia who publish standard word definitions.They don’t accommodate some groups personal claims. If Jehovah differentiates then why does RK say that WTC is going down? It is the same outcome as other members of Christendom? I cannot make it any clearer than that.
              Like a martini that has a twist of lemon in it, there is a twist of irony in our cocktail, because of the way in which Christendom is defined, and like it or not the WTC is under that definition, then, and what a marvellous word then is, the MOL indeed springs forth from Christendom. It may be confine to WTC but its source still generates from Christendom. The nations are similar to King Herod, they are not going to wade through all of Christendom’s many members to see who is different religously, they will put the lot down altogether, speed is of the essence, in one hour mind you. The rest of BTG will follow.
              My very kindest regards bc

            • Richard Long

              And you did that without having to represent yourself as being the exclusive channel of communication between Jehovah and mankind????😙

            • Observing Quietly

              Richard, I don’t understand this comment to BC? I have just read all this entire conversation between BC and each of you and no where do I see that he represented himself as an exclusive channel? If this is meant to be a joke, I guess I missed it.

            • Richard Long

              Apologies for the poorly executed attempt at humor, OC. Yes this was sarcasm in the extreme complete with “whistling past the graveyard” emoji. Shall I remove it?

            • Observing Quietly

              Richard Long, no, don’t remove it, I just didn’t see what the point you were making was. But humor is much loved here and I am quite happy to know that is what was behind it. Thanks!

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s true. I like the scripture too. This is a good discussion but its making my head spin. So many points of view. I hear what black curtain is saying, but to be honest, I don’t see that these sects can have much of a bearing on the matter even if they do proclaim that Christ has arrived. It’s not on a par with the watchtower. But I don’t know. I don’t really have the strength to keep up with the arguments and it seems to be coming to blows in some areas. Have you seen song of Hannah’s forum topic on this matter? If you have, could you email me your opinion as this might save further contention, but I still want to know! Thanks.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              You are right Burt! there are so many points of view and opinions as well as definitions concerning the man of lawlessness and who he is BUT that’s just what they are human points of view and opinions as well as definitions and what bible students / people seem to forget and brush over Is Jehovah’s definitions of who the man of lawlessness really is.

              Now some believe because the so-called Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller, who in 1833 first shared publicly his belief that the Second Advent of Jesus Christ would occur in roughly the year 1843–1844- but what they don’t take into account is the fact that when the the Millerites expectations weren’t realized, that is Jesus did not return In 1844 they simply gave up and this is what they had to say
              “They contended that what had happened on October 22 1844 was not Jesus’ return, as Miller had thought, but the start of Jesus’ final work of atonement, the cleansing in the heavenly sanctuary, leading up to the Second Coming. Read more> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

              So if the Millerites gave up pursuit they them selves cannot possibly be the man of lawlessness either. However keep in mind that the bible students who became the watchtower did follow suit and started preaching that Jesus came in his Parousia in 1874 of course they have adjusted It to 1914 but nonetheless they have been preaching that Jesus came in his Parousia for more than the last hundred years.

              Jehovah’s definition of who the man of lawlessness is.
              The man of lawlessness sets up a false Parousia as the Apostle Paul explained
              In other words this man of lawlessness exclaims that the Christ has already come
              and thats exactly what the watchtower tract society has been doing / proclaiming for more than 100 years.
              So my question to you or anyone else who is interested IS ” how could christendom on a whole be the man of lawlessness if they are not proclaiming that Jesus Christ has already come?
              This very fact not only differentiates the watchtower From christendom but also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the man of lawlessness exist within the watchtower organization be cause they are the only ones who are professing that Jesus Christ has come.
              ALSO READ
              Chapter 10 – Man of Lawlessness
              Excerpt:
              Although Jehovah’s Witnesses are laboring under the impression that the clergy of Christendom constitute a collective man of lawlessness, it is undeniable that of all the so-called Christian groups in existence today one organization stands alone as the source of presumptive Bible-based “inspired expressions” announcing the presence of Christ. That organization is, of course, the Watchtower Society!

              Exactly as Paul foretold, through a variety of verbal messages delivered in public talks in kingdom halls and at assemblies and conventions and through authoritative, apostolic-like letters and publications, the Watchtower is recognizably the undisputed fountainhead of a steady stream of messages heralding that the presence of Christ began in 1914 and “that the day of Jehovah is here.”
              http://jehovah-is-king.com/

            • Burt Reynolds

              That is correct. Jehovah’s point of view. I shall have to work on my lateral thinking. Thank you.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Burt said” That is correct. Jehovah’s point of view.

              So that your faith might be, not in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power.
              1 Corinthians : 2:5.

            • Craig Knight

              Great reply BC! Thanks for addressing my comments. The reason I have been pushing this Gods temple being the WTS is because that’s what Robert has been saying all along unless I missed something. I guess He is saying that the WTS or as you say WTC (I like that better:) has nothing to do with Jehovah because they have sinned against him so much. Jehovah’s people are not a religion but are scattered about the world and as individuals we are the temple of God. I like that concept because I always hated organized religion anyway. As long as we understand God’s purpose and call upon his name and are obedient to his word then we are Jehovah’s people. I need to reflect on these new concepts because we were so brainwashed about THE true religion. New ideas can feel like a threat to our belief system but we need to be open to new ideas and at least meditate on them. Thanks again for sharing your views.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, new or “foreign” ideas can shake us to our core and obliterate even our faith and belief in God, all the more so profoundly when one has turned their conscience over to a set of doctrine. This certainly was true in my case, my first real rude awakening coming in the story of a brother named Daniel Genser I read on Medium. Powerful read if you can take an unsatisfactory ending. But bc can show you some of the cack I posted in our initial encounters as I struggled with “losing my religion”. Seems ever the more traumatic for those of us who have literally been tricked into believing we are no part of any religion but rather “the only true faith”. It cuts deep! I know!

              Blessings of peace and comfort to you!
              RL

            • Jayshah

              Dear Brother Knight and BC, Pardon me for joining in but I have enjoyed reading your comments and hoped to add a point to ‘where do we go?’ as BC has commented that many have asked this question.
              It reminds me of when the disciples had posted that question and said that, ‘ you have sayings of everlasting life’ so they followed Jesus.
              In the book of Revelation John is in a vision pertaining to the final part of the last days and there he sees a woman who is given the wings of an eagle. Where does she fly to safety? She is taken into the ‘wilderness’.

              Mat 24:28 ‘ wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.’ Is Jesus Christ the Carcass that we are to feed on in the wildernesses?
              Hebrews 13:12-16 ’12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.’
              I missed meeting at the Kingdom hall today. However I have been well fed here and as more than one have met in the name of Christ his spirit is here and it is also a meeting and I guess our ‘temple’ of worship to him as we, ‘offer to God a sacrifice of the fruit of our lips’ BC has done well to remind me of the scripture which says that we are a ‘temple’ of God’s in which God’s spirit resides. I guess the ‘temple’ has many senses especially if we look to the things above which is unseen and not to physical or material things we can touch. untimately

            • The Raven

              I agree with your view on the matter. The differences are remarkable.Some could argue that their involvement with the UN and not paying taxes makes them a party to it but I would say that does not diminish or negate the things which set them apart. And they are major. However we know that soon the call to get out will come with the realization once tribulation begins that the temple must be abandoned. That’s when the test begins. Not now. Now we deal with a world on the brink of unbridled cruelty and the arrival of the devil and our Master.

            • Thinking

              Raven have you read the article where Robert alluded to the fact that Satan may already be hear…..

            • The Raven

              My understanding of this is based on scripture which plainly states he will be cast down and that coincides with global mayhem, the horsemen’s ride. He has always been here and in the heavens but once he is thrown out of heaven and confined to the vicinity of the earth that signifies the trib has begun and Christs arrival. Thats when we will see the devil reach the pinnacle of his power through a beastly world dominating government. What we see now is not his worst. Numerous scriptures describe what will be.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              More food for thouht.
              he Time of the End.
              Excerpt.
              What exactly is the “test” that Jesus foretold will come upon the whole world? The language is similar to that which Jesus used when talking about the great tribulation that will suddenly come in upon the entire inhabited earth. Revelation reveals the test will come about due to Satan demanding that all give allegiance to his earthly political system or face death.Read more>
              https://e-watchman.com/time-end/

              Read a lot more>Search results for: testhttps://e-watchman.com/?s=test

            • Richard Long

              But does WT *consort* with the kings of the earth? Do the kings of the earth take into consideration what has been discussed in their pillow talk? Would it matter who is “on top” during a fornication? Or who bought dinner and paid for the room?

              All of these things DO remain yet to be seen. Since the parousia is not yet apparent, all has not yet been brought to light and certainly BTG has not yet been brought to court so we cannot see who is hiding under her skirt.

              My suspicion is that all religionist leaderships will be found there but my simply saying so does not make it true. Frankly, I hope you are right and I’m the one that has to die in my error, but that is emotion attempting to override reason, IMHO.

            • Craig Knight

              WT has committed spiritual adultery with the kings of the earth no question about that. God’s people and the temple were destroyed in 587/586 for their spiritual adultery with the nations yet God didn’t abandon them. They sure got punished severely but Daniel was God’s prophet in Babylon and so God was still guiding them. Jesus chased out the money changers because the Temple still represented God’s name. Robert has said time and again that JW’s are God’s people or modern day temple. If the modern day temple transforms into BTG then what is Jesus going to cleanse when He returns BTG??? So the temple has to be here still when Christ returns. That’s why I say the temple and BTG cannot be the same. The end result is still the same however. The leadership of WT who are to blame will be severely punished – Christ separates the wheat from the weeds, BTG gets destroyed and the refined ones survive. So nothing really ends up any different. The temple has become polluted and we who know that are here waiting for Christ to cleanse it. We are still Jehovah’s people so you don’t have to die in your error. This just makes sense to my puny brain as of now. I of course could be way off track for all I know.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, I can only say when we cite Robert as authority we become responsible also to be honest with ourselves in the realization that Robert, for all his insight, remains an apologist for the JW religion. There is nothing “wrong” to be found in that. SOMEONE needs to explain the JW religion to the world in honest, forthright way, and Jehovah knows the GB isn’t doing it!

              Of course, I have never had private correspondence with Robert, but have previously commented that if we accept that the WT has been used by Jehovah for some purpose, we must also accept Robert is being used in the same way. And it is very reasonable to conclude both are being used in very specific, even precise ways to care for the specific needs of one segment of His human family.

              For instance, it can certainly be argued that the JW religion attracts a “certain kind” of individual, the essence of which goes beyond being a lover of God, a lover of righteousness, a lover of truth, or harmony, or a genuine cultivator of the fruitage of the Spirit, for individuals of that nature abound within the walls of every denomination of Christendom and, dare I say, the rest of the Babylonish religions.

              When one performs a reduction to the lowest common denominating characteristic of persons choosing to be JW’s, one is left with “impatience”. If there is one overarching effect on one indoctrinated in the JW religion, it is being taught “to wait”. A most prominent influence of Satan on the adherents of the JW religion is the temptation “to not wait”. Hence, the majority mindset which permits one to, while in the very act of providing “service to God”, point to the home of another of God’s human children and say “that’s where I want to live in the new world!”

              A subset of those persons whose greatest need is “to learn to wait” above described are those which, in their hearts cannot abide the lies, those whose minds cannot accept the incongruities between scripture and doctrine and between doctrine and practice. These ones are not better or worse, or more holy or less, but rather are simply in possession of a more nuanced “need”. Ironically, if we find ourselves in this subset, we place ourselves outside the blessing of the Christ upon the ones that come to him as a little child, but that is another matter. The point is, to this subset of believers, to those waking from the operation of error in the form of the particular “flavor” of delusion afflicting JW’s, Robert has been made available to provide only one of any number of places of refuge and rest that may now exist. And yes, I believe it is Jehovah through Jesus that has made this provision come into existence.

              The question for all of us is: do we honor Jehovah or His designated representative Jesus, when we bring with us, to this or another place, the set of beliefs, the doctrine and dogma that were designed to teach us “to wait”, and use them to wage war with those either still in or escaping the same or another system using the set of beliefs, the doctrine and dogma that were designed to teach one “to love”, or “to obey” or “to whatever”.

              This is not do debate that Christianity has not been brought forth specifically as a more perfect replacement of the Law in the training of a royal priesthood, and it is certainly not to debate that the JW religion is not specifically a Christian faith.

              It IS to challenge the premise that AT THIS TIME, a “pure”, or “true”, or “perfected” religion can be in existence, and to further challenge the premise put forth by any or every religion and any or every sect of Christendom, of which JW’s are one by every other definition under the sun EXCEPT the “say so” of the GB , that THEY are “the one”, as well as the premise that any or all of them AS INSTITUTIONS, are not partakers in some part from the table of the demons. And this condition exists with the permission of the Almighty until the parousia and it is from this condition those belonging to the Christ are during the parousia called to “get out of HER”

              Further, the GB may ONLY “say so” regarding doctrine or dogma, including the WT’s claimed exemption from Christendom and by extension BTG as long as the false parousia delusion remains intact. I contend that the thorough removal of the delusion from our minds includes a washing away so much more that the 1914 hoax but the entire authority of the WT altogether. It is astonishing to me that we might allow the WT to dismiss the divine authority of every other ecclesiastical body on earth and allow it to maintain its own, given that the WT’s own claim to divine authority as an ecclesiastical body is solely based on a known, proven lie. IMO, there is no condition of paradox to satisfy an honest, objective mind in the consideration of the WT’s claims, and the straightforward preponderance of the evidence condemns the WT as part and parcel of Christendom and therefore a full sharer in the plagues to befall BTG.

              paradox
              [par-uh-doks]
              Spell Syllables
              Synonyms Examples Word Origin
              See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
              noun
              1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
              2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.
              3. any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.
              4. an opinion or statement contrary to commonly accepted opinion.

              I also see what I see and say what I see, a watchman of my own mind body and spirit with no claim to divine backing, approval, or special insight.

              Blessings of peace and good heath to you Craig, and all others who this comment may encounter.

              RL

            • Craig Knight

              You’re preaching to the choir here Richard. I have no compassion for the WTS and all their errors. I’m just trying to keep it real. The WTS is God’s Organization gone wrong according to Robert and that makes sense to me. BTG has already been judged so why would Jesus return in his 2nd coming to inspect and cleanse his house if it’s already part of BTG? He wouldn’t cleanse it if it’s Babylon the Great He’d just destroy it. All of us here know WT is way off base and is bloodguilty and has become corrupt. WT is going down but I don’t think you can call it God’s modern day temple and BTG at the same time. I doesn’t compute with me anyway.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, my dear brother, if we are going to accept this:

              “The WTS is God’s Organization gone wrong according to Robert and that makes sense to me.”

              Then we cannot say:

              “BTG has already been judged so why would Jesus return in his 2nd coming to inspect and cleanse his house if it’s already part of BTG?”

              Unbeknownst to you, Robert has written extensively that the judgement of BTG is a yet future event to occur during the parousia which is preceded by the call to “get out of her”. As is the application of Isaiah 43:10 a yet future event to occur during the parousia. The site archivist will help you find these articles.

              If we are using Robert’s work as authority, the rest or your argument cancels itself.

            • Craig Knight

              Yes the destruction of BTG is future but Revelation is a prophecy about it’s certain demise. So we know Jehovah cannot lie so it’s as good as done. BTG will fall!

            • Richard Long

              FINALLY! I cannot tell you how long and how strongly I have been yearning for a point of agreement I could upvote you on! Thank you, by dearest brother, Craig!

            • Craig Knight

              Well thank you for being patient with me Richard! I’m a bit tenacious when it comes to putting pieces of the puzzle together. Thank all of you for your guidance. I’m so new to forums I don’t even know what up voting means but it sounds positive! Ha ha!!!

            • Burt Reynolds

              It is better that a person finds his own way so that he can own it more thoroughly.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven
              And do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout,
              Giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
              So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
              It will not return to me without results,
              But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,Isaiah 55:10-11.
              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/55/#v23055010-v23055011

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        OSCE:Organization for security and cooperation of Europe. WTS is a NGO partner of this organization. They send their representatives to OSCE for lobbying and other meetings where your friends there will a Bahia faith or even a Hindu a Marmon oh why not even a Freemason!!! What a Babylon the great is that OSCE?

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        OSCE mean organization security cooperation of Europe

    • into the light

      Hi Isaac, what you’re doing is commendable – seeking truth and trying to understand. But please be careful when making claims. Please consider Isaiah ch. 48 and specifically verses 6 and 7.

      Greetings
      itl

    • we’ll see what happens with the OSCE. whatever the king of the north has at his disposal and uses to get it done

    • Burt Reynolds

      I have to ask how you know these things. We need to know that Jehovah is bringing this world to its conclusion, but how, is just speculation. Enthusiasm is best placed in that coming. My school motto was Audi Vidi Tace. Hear, See, be Silent. I ignored the latter. Got me into a lot of difficulty. Still does.

  • Burt Reynolds

    I recall that 1983 watchtower vividly. Though everyone was thoughtfully nodding in agreement and hoping that they would be thought tried, tested and mature enough if the anointing knocked on their door, I was left thinking just what one had to do to be ‘qualified’. First it occurred to me that the qualification was man-made…ergo, if you made the claim of being anointed, they would laugh at you, question you, belittle you if you were not ‘one if them’. The second point that occurred to me that though Jesus had to wait until the lawful age of thirty to become ‘recognised’ among his peers ( as they saw themselves to be ) in other words, some maturity was required’ he began fulfilling the role of Christ from the start, leading the preaching and teaching. Even that though was not the point for me…it was the degree of faith. The question is not, ‘who are we to question the wisdom of Jehovah in his anointing of these chosen ones, because that is a given. No. The question is ‘who are we to question the degree of faith in another?’ (If he or she senses the anointing of Jehovah). The faith of the newest person to cross the threshold of the temple may be unbreakable, while the faith of the oldest elder, may be as weak as a newborn kitten. This is the very problem with the watchtower. It’s not faith that gains praise and honour amongst them, but being a company man. Our elders used to hold up the example of a dustman that was an elder. But it was not because he was humble and faithful, it was because like the most prominent of them, he was one of them ( and they could look down on him too). Jesus showed his unbreakable faith in the Father at the very outset, against the highest, strongest opposition, less than forty days into his ministry. The watchtower should recognise that, but they don’t. They simply say one taking of the emblems now when new, is immature, unlettered in the faith, or unsound of mind, and probably all three. Anointing is between the individual and Jehovah. Better to leave it that way.

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      And, to add to that, I was always taught that if you’re NOT anointed, you are spiritually dead to Jehovah until after the 1000 years, your prayers are not heard…..disheartening? Yes. Not until I tossed out the WTS and read the Bible through three times, that you then know Jehovah listens, even to women…since Hagar!!!

      • Burt Reynolds

        I never heard that before…that those not of the annointed remained spiritually dead for the thousand years! Disheartening is hardly the word for it. Poor you. How the word of Jehovah gets twisted in the congregations, even within the twisting of the watchtower! I have never agreed with the misogyny within the watchtower. I can understand the family/ congregational arrangement and the issues surrounding it insofar as the bible says it should be, but the bible also points out the equality and complimentary values of the sexes. Something that is increasingly sidelined by the watchtower, especially in dealing with abuses of all sorts. When I was in the congregation, elders wives were always highly praised as being paragons of understanding and wisdom to other women (only) in the most condescending manner. Personally, I always feel incomplete without my dear wife – so she tells me.

      • Craig Knight

        I have never read WT saying that. The shed blood of Christ allows all of us to approach God in prayer. Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf. These are all Christians not just the anointed otherwise how could the Great Crowd have white robes???

        • The Raven

          I never heard that either. What would have been the purpose for Jesus to teach us how to pray to Jehovah if He doesn’t hear us?

          • Craig Knight

            You nailed it! The Israelite’s and men of God prayed to him way before Jesus arrived on the scene. Job for example:

            Job 22:26
            “For then you will delight in the Almighty And lift up your face to God.

            Job 22:27
            “You will pray to Him, and He will hear you; And you will pay your vows.

            Job 33:25
            Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor;

            Job 34:28
            So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him, And that He might hear the cry of the afflicted–

            Psalm 18:20
            The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness; According to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me.

            Psalm 50:14
            “Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving And pay your vows to the Most High;

            Psalm 50:15
            Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me.”

        • Richard Long

          Do we not all say that if we survive Armageddon, it will take 1000 years for us to become sinless AFTER the final test? If the wages of sin are death and we are not sinless then we are dead. Did the Catholics teach us this or did the WT teach us this? Robert has alternatively shown that all disciplined to the proper degree during the parousia are already perfected. Were any of those to survive Armageddon, would they not already be perfect too? Now comes the arduous task of determine which part of this confusion is created by the Rutherford two destiny doctrine. I don’t have to tell you that the WT has trained us start from the premise, regardless of how sound it may or may not be, and build (or bend) the scriptures to fit. This is called eisegesis. The opposite, exegesis, starting with scripture and building the premise, is genuine scholarship, although not easily packaged for Mass consumption. Just saying.

          • The Raven

            Christ’s sacrifice took care of the sin. The last thing to do is choose. If we have to be perfect then whats the point in judgement day? We all get a beating before that anyway. I was never told by the wt any of those things about taking 1000 years to be perfected. I read it as 1000 years are allotted for all humanity to come to perfection. This makes sense since all the dead who ever walked this earth cannot possibly be brought back all at the same time. It would be fun, but not very practical. Lol!

          • Craig Knight

            I agree with Raven’s comments. But just to add that those perfected are the anointed only. The Great Crowd still need the ransom until we reach perfection. Only Christ’s bother’s are perfected instantly.

            I think we are all empathetic to Cathii’s misunderstanding of prayer so that now maybe she will have comfort knowing the truth and feel free to pray and know that God accepts her prayers. That’s where I’m coming from.

            • Richard Long

              Craig, some things will be said her that are not directed to you. I trust you to know which ones.

              Which leads still to agreement being conditioned to one’s acceptance of the WT’s definition of “the anointed”, and now we are kicking the can down the road to agreement being conditioned to one’s acceptance of the WT’s definition of the “Great Crowd” and further still to agreement being conditioned to one’s acceptance of the WT’s definition of at which point in time the ransom is applied.

              Although I botched the opening of my comment and subsequently the very thorough and extremely carefully worded original edit clarifying it got scattered into the nanoverse by an accidental refresh of the page on my phone, breaking my will to pursue the matter due to exhaustion, the portion of my comment regarding exegesis vs eisegesis remains valid and deserves consideration.

              What I have been banging on about here for weeks now, in the most delicate, sensitive, loving, and gentle way I know how to (received as sly, insidious, decisive, and dangerous by some who seem to have made me their enemy) is that before the evidence is challenged, the premise must be challenged. That is due process, or more specifically, due diligence. Otherwise the evidence is meaningless, it has no weight or context, and when the evidence is scripture, one using it so is performing scriptural malpractice. The WT has not only taught us to personally abandon due diligence, insisting we just accept without question what they say without challenging the premise but they perform the scriptural malpractice regularly.

              Lest anyone be unable to find the generosity to not impute bad motive to me, I am specifically describing a condition I myself have been deeply immersed in for 25 or so years. If another has experienced the delusion in a way other than described here, then I ask that my words be allowed to be my words, and that one continue in the peace of their own conscience without feeling and acting on the compulsion to assassinate mine. I assure you all noone will need to remind me of my own potential for error, or even hypocrisy. Still, I admit I would prefer to be corrected with “I disagree” or “are you sure?” rather than the “You lie” or the “you’re an extortionist” or the most vile “caution the other member of this community you have chosen to request personal correspondence with is the devil” that have come my way of late.

              Back to the point. The life’s work of Robert King, if nothing else, has provided overwhelming documented evidence of this phenomenon of eisegesis . In other words, his work is done by the challenging of premises put forward by the WT in the formation of WT doctrine so that his readers may examine them anew. And I think, at least I hope, Robert might be appalled to think (m)any of us just take HIS word for it as if he is a newer, improved, and properly adjusted FDS. I take him at his word. He says he is a watchman. A watchman sees what he sees and says what he sees so that those hearing might use that information to keep themselves alive.

              I only wish, out of my genuine love for all here, to see us all learning and practicing exegesis and abandoning eisegesis. The caveat in this, of course, is the challenging of long accepted premises and the finding of them to be fallacious WILL lead to discomfort of some degree varying by individual.

              And thank you, Craig, for being humble enough to see past me to catch my very veiled point of just who is perfected instantly and how. Some may have not. It is incongruity to place an “other sheep” (WT designation for “not little flock”) in both the receiving of strokes upon the masters inspection and in the Great Crowd following Armageddon. But that leads to yet more premises which should perhaps be challenged.

            • Craig Knight

              We are all here seeking clarification of truth and like you say we should be kind and allow everyone to express themselves. If we find a point we feel is incorrect then we should feel obliged to speak up or we wrong each other. How else can we learn? We are all different and we all have our filters in place. I enjoy your comments you obviously do good research. If we disagree we can do it peacefully. I like what you said about Robert being the new FDS. I thought about that too. We need to use our power of reason and not just accept everything because Robert says it. Tho Robert has great insight into prophecy and so forth and I admire his understanding. I’m sure He doesn’t want a bunch of yes men hanging around.

            • The Raven

              That’s true as far as I know. The anointed are perfected instantly. It appears that there are many different teachings among witnesses from some of what we’ve seen here. lets face it, some of their teachers were not very good. Others had more insight. You’re right that Jehovah hears her prayers as He does all ours as long as we pray in Jesus’s name. This is basic stuff here.
              We also know that no one gets to skate through Armageddon. No one. The anointed get their beatings and we get ours through tribulation. But, there is also the secretary and his inkhorn. We can be assured they won’t mess this up as men can.
              It’s going to be wonderful knowing that we will finally have a just and merciful king and his brothers who will guide us.

            • Craig Knight

              Oh yeah nobody skates for free! We all will be tested completely which is what 10 days refers to which most of us are aware of. Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. Daniel 1:12 “Please test your servants for ten days, and let us be given some vegetables to eat and water to drink.

              Amen to your last paragraph!

      • Thinking

        Well I’ve never ever heard such a thing…the opposite in fact…boy you must have had a terrible teacher sis…you have done a great job sticking with it..

    • Isaac of Coimbatore

      Last line is well said. I like your comment. Were u an elder?

      • Burt Reynolds

        Me? An elder?! I worked to become a servant, and was on the point of giving a public talk when my life as a witness fell apart. I am glad to say I was never an elder because what I was striving for…advancement, in my ignorance and misguided faith, I am sure I would have caused misery to many of my brothers and sisters through my self righteous attitude. I was a product of myself and the watchtower, immature in life experience, lacking in depth of insight, a follower of men, easily led. I applied the teachings of the watchtower to others, not understanding that I should have been helping others to apply themselves to the bible. I am so thankful that I never got to be an elder. I shudder to think of the damage I would have caused when I thought I was doing right. There would have been no limit to it. It would have been a lifetime of blindness. Having since spent a long time in life’s grinding mill, the only thing I can honestly say I came out with, was a faith that there was a creator and that I still spoke to him and he still, I felt, had something for me. The high point in my life is that I never once relinquished that faith, though it’s true to say I never understood the substance of it. I would never advise anyone still attending the congregation to become an elder without first, understanding the empathy of Jesus and how it was, that he could actually give up his life for us.

  • I’ve always wondered what will happen to the anointed co-ruling with a Christ after the thousand year reign. I’m sure I read that the anointed only rule during the one thousand year reign of Christ.

    • Cathii D’Anthonii

      We shall have to see, Br. Student..What we do know is its going to be better than now with the demons ruling…We can’t even imagine that evil influence and death done away with because we have never experienced it…Jehovah is giving the meek ones the earth…..

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        Encouraging!!!

    • Craig Knight

      Great question! Here’s a scripture to consider: Daniel 7:18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever–yes, for ever and ever.’
      Here’s another question to toss out there, Does Jesus stop sitting at Jehovah’s right hand when He hands the kingdom back to God? Matthew 22:44 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’

      • Richard Long

        Does this fall under the the category of questions one can’t answer, or the category of answers one can’t question?

        • Burt Reynolds

          Smart! Try phoning bethel and let me know. I’ll put a dollar on it being not answered either way and that you should ask your local elder, who in turn will either tell you to wait on Jehovah, or will promise to ‘research it’ and that will be the last you ever hear of it.

        • Craig Knight

          That’s pretty funny Richard! Ha ha! I guess we have to learn to love the questions themselves. Maybe I should have asked how fast angels can fly?

    • Richard Long

      One having read that, and wondered that, might consider the record of reliability of the source of those materials and search out evidence to either confirm or deny such understanding.

  • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834

    Here’s a question that has often been asked, does an individual have to be baptized in water first to be one of the anointed?

    • Richard Long

      The answer to that would greatly depend on the definition of “the anointed”. Please provide the parameters of the premise.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Interesting question. I’m not sure of the answer, but I would think that literal baptism in water is not an essential. The reason being that many who will respond favourably to the issues of the tribulation will not be baptised, or confirmed, as some churches have it. Others may look upon their christening as baptism, as with Catholicism. It’s an outward symbol. If there is no one to witness it, does it count? Jehovah would know, but then Jehovah also recognises the baptism of the heart as being the right motivation. An example of this may be the thief who was executed along side Jesus. Jesus told this sinner that he, the thief would be in paradise. It’s not so likely that this thief had a religion or knew Jehovah, but when the chips were down and he saw and had faith in Jesus, his realisation of the significance was total. I suspect many such ones will come out of the tribulation.

      • Bklyn Kevin

        Then the Israelites departed from Ramʹe·ses for Sucʹcoth, about 600,000 men on foot, besides children. “And a vast mixed compan” Exodus 12: 37 . Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/exodus/12/#v2012033-v2012042

        • Burt Reynolds

          I’m being a bit thick today….I don’t make the connection?

          • Richard Long

            You are not being thick. Even though we do not know the parameters of Revv’s premise, pre-Christian era occurrences cannot possibly be considered because the premise is confined to baptism, which is a Christian requirement. Now if Revv had said “circumcision”….

            • Burt Reynolds

              He would gave been cut off?!

          • Bklyn Kevin

            Burt In your comment you said ” I would think that literal baptism in water is not an essential. The reason being that many who will respond favourably to the issues of the tribulation will not be baptised, 2-Jehovah also recognises the baptism of the heart as being the right motivation.
            It wasn’t just Jehovah’s people the Israelites who were freed / saved out of bondage from the Egyptians, Jehovah also freed a “vast mixed compan” Who weren’t Israelites and I’m sure we will see a future parallel during the great tribulation Exodus 12: 37 . Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publi

            • The Raven

              Kevin, the link says “sorry the page you are looking for cannot be found”. I’m interested in seeing it as well.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/45/#v23045001-v23045008

              Isaiah
              45:1-2545 This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus,+
              Whose right hand I have taken hold of+
              To subdue nations before him,+
              To disarm* kings,
              To open before him the double doors,
              So that the gates will not be shut:
              2 “Before you I will go,+
              And the hills I will level.
              The copper doors I will break in pieces,
              And the iron bars I will cut down.+
              3 I will give you the treasures in the darkness
              And the hidden treasures in the concealed places,+
              So that you may know that I am Jehovah,
              The God of Israel, who is calling you by your name.+
              4 For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one,
              I am calling you by your name.
              I am giving you a name of honor, although you did not know me.
              5 I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
              There is no God except me.+
              I will strengthen* you, although you did not know me,
              6 In order that people may know
              From the rising of the sun to its setting*
              That there is none besides me.+
              I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.+
              7 I form light+ and create darkness,+
              I make peace+ and create calamity;+
              I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
              8 You heavens, rain down from above;+
              Let the clouds pour down righteousness.
              Let the earth open up and be fruitful with salvation,
              And let it cause righteousness to spring up at the same time.+
              I, Jehovah, have created it.”

            • The Raven

              Jehovah chooses who He wants and always has. I don’t see as to how that’s changed.
              Thanks, kevin!

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a lovely scripture. When Jehovah is with you, how can you fail?

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Their Internet is not function properly this night from what I can tell.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Exodus 12: 37 . Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/exodus/12/#v2012033-v2012042
              33 And the Egyptians began to urge the people to depart quickly+ out of the land “because,” as they said, “we are all as good as dead!”+ 34 So the people carried their flour dough before it was leavened, with their kneading troughs* wrapped up in their clothing on their shoulder. 35 The Israelites did what Moses had told them and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and of gold as well as clothing.+ 36 Jehovah gave the people favor in the eyes of the Egyptians, so that they gave them what they asked for, and they plundered the Egyptians.+
              37 Then the Israelites departed from Ramʹe·ses+ for Sucʹcoth,+ about 600,000 men on foot, besides children.+ 38 And a vast mixed company*+ also went with them, as well as flocks and herds, a great number of livestock. 39 They began to bake the dough that they brought from Egypt into round loaves of unleavened bread. It was not leavened, because they had been driven out of Egypt so suddenly that they had not prepared any provisions for themselves.+
              40 The dwelling of the Israelites, who had dwelled in Egypt,+ was 430 years.+ 41 At the end of the 430 years, on this very day, all the multitudes* of Jehovah went out of the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night on which they will celebrate Jehovah’s bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This night is to be observed to Jehovah by all the people of Israel throughout their generations.+

            • The Raven

              Thanks. 😁

            • Burt Reynolds

              Ah! I see the point of the scripture you quoted now. Thanks. That’s very helpful Kevin.

      • Craig Knight

        I never thought about this before but you make some great points Burt. Water baptism is just a symbol. Jesus was baptized so it’s an important step but if one cannot get baptized like the criminal impaled next to Jesus then it’s a matter of the heart.

        • into the light

          I guess that could be the case for the ones that display their faith during the last hour, or hour of test, and have no chance to get baptized. I think that comission to make disciples and baptize them is still a requirement. Otherwise Jesus wouldn’t issue that command.

          • Burt Reynolds

            That’s true, Light, but there is an ethical barrier to that now, or so it seems. If the watchtower is what it is deemed to be, ergo, the means by which one can gain salvation though listening to the word, the recognition of such is that one should join it. To do that, you have to acquiesce to the watchtower and give your aliegence to men through pledging such at baptism. As Black Cutain pointed out, and it deserves our thinking on the matter, neither Jesus or Jehovah, started a religion as we know it today. It was a faith, but it is undeniable that the early guidance of that faith was granted to the apostles through Jesus. But it was not necessary to join anything, yet being of a like mind, people gather together naturally.

            Today, one cannot join in that group without pledging aliegence to the watchtower. So baptism can no longer be a pure commitment to Jehovah, as it is contaminated by service to men. So being accepted into Jehovah’s approval through baptism cannot take place with meaning….in fact, the act of baptism has become, watchtower style, an insult. Neither can those who believe the essence of truth within the watchtower, preach it without eventually lying to their new brother by teaching them the baptism. The door appears to be effectively closed into (joining, agreeing with,) the watchtower to those who believe in Jehovah and his purpose.

            Jesus said to continue to preach and baptise as you rightly point out. One may ask who of us is qualified now to baptise another. Is qualification required, when simple understanding, (it can only be simple, given the enormity of the creator in all things) faith, love and works is the motivator?

            Who is there that could baptise personally with meaning before Jehovah? The anointed Spring to mind, but to accept that anointing is one thing for the believer, but another for the one taking that responsibility. Does it matter who baptises you? Clearly it does judging by the account of Christ.

            But to be baptised, one has to have true faith in belief of the creator. True faith, is not necessarily accurate faith. How could it be? We are imperfect and Who knows the extent of Jehovah? We are asked only to surround ourselves with the ransom sacrifice and its diverse meaning, implication and requirements. That the meaning of our baptism is personal is a given. The act is an outward sign of submission to its meaning, and is carried out, as with John the Baptist, by a like mind. Who can possibly baptise one into the watchtower? The only door left open in pure intent is the door to the heart it seems, and with one who believes likewise in the bible to do the baptism. For it to have meaning and license, the baptiser surely must have knowledge of Jehovah as John did. For the baptised, they must have faith based on a firm foundation, not upon sand. On a personal note, when I was baptised, I believed the lie, and as such, I cannot say with truth, that I still believe in my baptismal value. Though my intent was honest, it was honesty based on need and lies. Is that honest or a deception? I was joining a society, because I wanted to belong, because I was young and wanted to be part of something safe. All the wrong reasons. I knew nothing of Jehovah and everything about the watchtower. If we are truthful to ourselves, the fact that the understanding of Jehovah remains with us now, is because of something He sees in us other than baptism in physical form.

            • into the light

              That is exact issue I am having right now, namely being baptized into the org. For example w02 4/1 pp. 10-15 claims that you need to be “qualified”:

              Personal responses to over 100 questions on Bible teachings help the elders to determine whether those responding meet Scriptural requirements for immersion. Some do not qualify and therefore are not accepted for Christian baptism.

              What does “do not qualify” mean anyway?
              I am not the only one thinking this way. We know that, scripturally, baptism has nothing to do with becoming a member of anything or pledging allegiance to any man or man’s institution and has everything to do with our becoming the follower of Christ and accepting his sacrifice. Matthew 28:19, 20. In order to become the follower of Christ you need to get baptized, come to accurate knowledge, and observe everything that Jesus commanded.

              Does it matter who baptises you? Clearly it does judging by the account of Christ.

              Could you please point me in the right direction about this? Because I’m under impression that all Christ’s followers are to follow his command stated in Mt. 28:19, 20. So Anyone who is baptized and has the accurate knowledge of Christ should be able to baptize anyone who is willing to become Christ’s follower.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I am not a teacher, Light. The bible says what it says. If the charge is that we must be baptised, then we must. All I was pointing out is how is that possible now and gave my reasons. This by no means implies those reasons are right. What I meant by saying that who baptises you is clearly important, is in reference to John the Baptist who said to Christ, ‘it is you who should baptise me’. Christ said to let it go on this occasion so that prophesy can be fulfilled. Who though can baptise another without an understanding of what one is baptising them in to. The candidate ( I hate that expression but it will have to do) has to understand what they are promising and the person doing it, surely must share that responsibility lest they lead a person astray and sanction something that is wrong. Clearly Jesus said that his followers must preach and baptise, therefore he entrusted their level of knowledge and insight. And the one being baptised, was showing equally that he/ she wanted to come under that understanding and serve wholeheartedly. So they too, had to understand. All I am asking now, is who would fulfil that role. It has to be one with biblical understanding. If you read Kevin’s answer to me on this subject, you will get a clearer understanding, with the proper biblical references. I’m afraid my memory does not run to chapter and verse. But I agree with your statement on qualifications, in that they need to be baptising in knowledge and as a proclaimed follower who has been baptised. But then, that was the situation when I got baptised, I thought, so one has to reconcile in their own mind, what is truth? All said and done though, it is whether Christ and Jehovah accept your baptism, not who baptises you. I think the bible shows a good example of what the issue is when it cites the example of the chap on the chariot, hearing the word of God and asking his companion what stops him from getting baptised right there and then, presumable by the chap he was talking to! You had better Google that one or ask someone who knows what I mean….there should be some, though I’m being rather vague here!

            • into the light

              You might not consider yourself to be a teacher but the way you present your thoughts is inspiring and that is enough for me. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the social media landscape, but there is this thing called “influencer”. Others look up to them and value their opinions, and they in turn provide inspiration to them.
              Anyway I don’t want to stroke your ego too much, you might get spoiled 😁

              I agree that there needs to be an understanding.

              Jesus “committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.” (1Pe 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus.

              I’m just not sure whether you can separate the commission to teach from the commission to baptize. I guess it boils down to this: if you’re “qualified” to teach, then you must also be able to baptize.

              I also find this interesting:

              Some years after 33 C.E., Apollos, a zealous man, was teaching correctly about Jesus, but he had an understanding of only John’s baptism. On this matter he had to be corrected, as did the disciples whom Paul met at Ephesus. These men in Ephesus had undergone John’s baptism, but evidently after its valid performance had ended, since Paul’s visit to Ephesus was about 20 years after the termination of the Law covenant. They were then baptized correctly in the name of Jesus and received holy spirit.—Ac 18:24-26; 19:1-7.

              Source

            • Burt Reynolds

              Ha ha! Don’t worry about my ego. I had that knocked out of me years ago at school and by a lifetime of having female managers. Social work is a female dominated practice and at times, I was the only man among a team of 30 plus women. You are not allowed an ego I can tell you….’what do you know about bringing up children….you’re only a man…’ (Listen to an hours dialogue on childbirth and how useless and unfeeling men are….) and woe betide you if you fail to notice the new hair-do, or if you DO notice it (sexist), etc etc. And then when I was manager….criticise practice and you reduce her to tears and get glowered at by the whole team….no, there was no room for ego….besides which, most of the time I was anesthetised by an atmosphere of perfume, sometimes so strong I could tell who was coming into the office before I saw her! I am just a man, Into the Light, just a man….

            • Richard Long

              But a man as glorious in his uniqueness as any other I have ever known and a welcome companion on any journey!

            • The Raven

              Acts 8: 26-40

              26 However, Jehovah’s* angel+ spoke to Philip, saying: “Get up and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Gazʹa.” (This is a desert road.) 27 With that he got up and went, and look! an E·thi·oʹpi·an eunuch,* a man who had authority under Can·daʹce, queen of the E·thi·oʹpi·ans, and who was in charge of all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship,+ 28 and he was returning and was sitting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: “Go over and approach this chariot.” 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know* what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now this was the passage of Scripture that he was reading: “Like a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and like a lamb that is silent before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth.+ 33 During his humiliation, justice was taken away from him.+ Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.”+
              34 The eunuch then said to Philip: “I beg you, about whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus. 36 Now as they were going along the road, they came to a body of water, and the eunuch said: “Look! Here is water; what prevents me from getting baptized?” 37 * —— 38 With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, Jehovah’s* spirit quickly led Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him anymore, but he went on his way rejoicing.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Raven. That was lovely to read. ‘How would I understand unless there is someone to teach me?’ There must be teachers in this time if the end. We have to put faith in what is said in explanation if we too are to understand. Maybe that is why the scripture was written about that event.

            • The Raven

              That’s a very good observation, Burt. Sometimes we get answers to more than one question through search and you have a knack for seeing them. Thank YOU, for that! 😊

            • Daisy

              But the Helper, the holy spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you
              John 14:26
              Taking a day off today, so just catching up…still packing to move…getting there.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, the scripture does say that, Daisy, but they also say that the message will be preached in all the inhabited earth, and of course that applies to us being taught so that we can be wise virgins, awake and ready whenever and on what watch he comes. Christ also formed a congregation to encourage each other and teachers to ensure they had a full understanding. I can appreciate the need to be wary of the teachings of men, but as with the Ethiopian, Jehovah sent his prophet to teach him and he believed that one. Approving of what another man/men/woman says and being in agreement with one another, is not worship or a giving away of our striving to imitate Christ but part of the joy in being in unity with the faith. Also, and I tread on dangerous ground, I believe the context of the scripture was when one is called to confirm or acknowledge their faith that Christ will be there to remind that one, in much the same way I suppose as the anointed will when called before kings. At some point too, we will be called upon to put our trust in these anointed under Christ, and my thinking also, is that we must have some trust beforehand in this world, to those who by their works, not whom they are, to preach the word as it is written.

              For me, I follow the word, but I will not put aside my faith in my fellow man or woman, just as I keep faith with all on this site, and I suppose, in other sites where others have lost faith, in the hope that I, or others, may assist to show them that all is not lost. In the end, in the new world that Jehovah will provide, we will put our trust in man, in faith of his or her motive, not perfection. Perfection, as we see with Satan, does not equal right motive.

              I also have to consider my own ignorance and inability to understand the scripture, so I have no option but to trust others to speak truth to me. That does not mean to say I am witless, but it does employ trust, reason and the proof of works. If people lie, and I am decieved, I still have the beating to awaken me and the unmistakable presence of Christ. For the present, I am sure Christ is teaching us all things. He said he would do so until the kingdom comes. He seems to have started this process by using the apostles to do so. We have to ask if his methodology was misplaced, or if there are still honest hearted men fulfilling and still striving to fulfil his words, to be with us. From what I am told, he does not appear to have arrived yet! But I do take your point and it is valid of course.

            • Daisy

              Buuuuurt! You wear me out!!!!! You know I love you but we’ve been through all this one way or another privately via Messenger. I don’t have the time nor energy ….(you know about moving house, sorry to harp on, )…to go round and round in circles philosophising and getting no further with each other as to our own understanding. Sorry to be short. Please put the kettle on Burt I need some earl grey.xxx

            • Burt Reynolds

              Sorry if I have aggravated you Daisy. I thought we had a common understanding, but it’s okay to be divergent. I don’t think our differing outlooks matter in the slightest in the great scheme of things. Why on earth should I expect others to agree with me when we have all been ‘yes men’ to the watchtower? So what if I trust where angels fear to tread! I have to use the armour supplied as I have none of my own but at least it is armour that I can use, and I’m learning how to make it fit. You and I will still be arguing over trifles when the 1000 years are over and done with and I wouldn’t want it any other way. Life would be bland if you and I always agreed. But importantly, We shall still bake bread together and both our loaves will always be the better of the two!

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Proverbs
              27:17 As iron sharpens iron,
              So one man sharpens his friend

            • Beverly kenyon

              Sorry but I’ve had to reply to you here on this article. Thank you for the interesting point from the Bible about jealousy but your point being?? There is not a single human being on God’s earth that I am jealous of. Everyday I thank the Heavenly Father and his Son for all my blessings of which I have many, Decent, loyal friends, my beautiful girls who have good hearts, my family who love me no matter what, my good health, a job that suits me so no, I’m not jealous of no one in this world. It was only yesterday I thanked the Lord, for you showing me how to install my bible hub app and telling me about it when I first appeared here on this blog as I can’t live without that app now and I said, a loud thank to you so it’s those little things I’m rich in so why would I be jealous of another human being, I have everything I need thank you very much.

              And as for that remark that Thinking said, about ‘putting to shame those baptised’ well, anyone’s baptism is really nothing to do with her as that’s a personal decision between God and that person dedicating their new course of life as a Christian to God. That’s not for her to judge. And I know that woman jumps out of bushes at the first sign of drama and has taken it upon herself to try to save everyone but she’s not in charge of my spirituality. And if I’m to feel shame about being baptised then the only shame I feel about that is that I was baptised into a Real estate corporation if you care to know. Thinking can keep her two cents opinion about my baptism in her pocket!

            • Craig Knight

              The door appears to be effectively closed into (joining, agreeing with,) the watchtower to those who believe in Jehovah and his purpose.

              I love what you said because I have been struggling with the concept of not having an organized religion. Christ formed the Christian Church with the Elder arrangement and the MS arrangement etc…the WT has closed the door to people who have insight into their error. So if I cannot with a clean conscience go to an organization then what’s left but to serve God the best I can on my own. It’s on WTC for stumbling so many good people. So I’m starting to come around to serving God without man made religion. BC helped me and Richard was trying and now I’m starting to see the light on that subject. WTC qualifies for being a part of Christendom for their ignorance and cruelty. BC brought to my attention the definition of Christendom = Definition of Christendom 1 :christianity
              2 :the part of the world in which Christianity prevails. So by definition WTC is a part of Christendom. They have committed spiritual fornication with the UN and all the rest of it. I feel like the prodigal son who returned but his father was gone and his father’s house was burned to the ground. WTC’s spiritual temple will be razed to the ground like in 70 ce.

            • Burt Reynolds

              You can still attend the watchtower and keep a clean conscience if you wish. I must admit I’m so confused about the issues surrounding this but I tend to lean to the reasonableness of the argument as I have nowhere else to go with it in my mind. Yet as I follow the (even daily) demise of the watchtower from some of the sites I visit that focus on such, I truely wonder how Jehovah can tolerate it. It seems to oppose every last quality Jehovah has made and stands by. Having said that, I must contradict myself because the issues are between Jehovah and his representitives as they term themselves, and not me. So just as one does not necessarily leave their employment because of what the manager and secretary are doing in the broom cupboard during lunch break, neither should I assume on the Father’s tolerance. After all, he is still providing work. But that does not mean that some cannot or will not associate themselves with the broom cupboard shenanigans for the sake of their own conscience! One can see why Jehovah judges people as individuals….that is probably the greatest mercy of all, as Jehovah appears to judge each not, just individually, but within their heartfelt abilities to determine his word.

            • sally

              Haha Burt! I love the analagy! funny but a very simple one to understand. You said you wander how Jehovah can tolerate it? The truth is, he has been “tolerating it” for 6000 years…which is just as well for us.

          • Craig Knight

            Yes you are correct but it’s interesting that some will be resurrected without ever being baptized,

            • into the light

              My understanding is that by the time resurrection happens we will reach the end of our faith. Christianity will have fulfilled its purpose and there will be “new scrolls”.

              Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that millennial reign, or judgment day, will be the proving grounds for the resurrected ones since they, having paid the wage for sin, don’t need to have their sins covered anymore.



              Somewhere in paradise a.d. 2175…
              Now that Satan has been imprisoned for next 1000 years, we have enough time to build up our faith and learn the truth. The time will soon come to prove that our hearts are in right condition. We don’t have anyone to tempt us presently, so we better use this time before the tempter is released again…

              Sorry for going way off, I just thought a bit of mental gymnastics was fun.
              🤣

            • The Raven

              Thats jow I read it too. That is what scripture states as does Robert concerning the end of the entire system…everything including the bible. New scrolls are opened. But it’s not just the resurected ones who need to be perfected, its also the survivors. It is by Jehovah’s mercy that we survive even though we are still imperfect. We too need guidance as do the returnees. That’s how I understand it.

            • Craig Knight

              Here’s something to consider because I think that scripture about being acquitted from sin is misunderstood. Otherwise we wouldn’t need Jesus as our ransomer. See what you think about these comments:

              Paul shared a view of eschatological judgment, as 2 Corinthians makes clear; Romans 6:7 states that man is “freed from sin” when he dies, as he no longer has the ability to sin, having lost his “sinful body” (6:6), and no more “in the flesh” (8:10). For sin “reigns in mortal bodies” and the body can be “turned into an unholy weapon fighting on the side of sin” (6:12-13), tho the job of the Christian is to keep themselves away from sin. Sin is the source of death (5:12), and thus the “wages of sin is death” (6:23); this does not mean that the slate of one’s deeds is wiped clean through death, it simply means that sin has death as its reward. Those who die who continued to wilfully sin after baptism also would have “give an account of himself” for everybody “will have to stand before the judgment seat of God” (Romans 14:10). Similarly, referring to those either “living in the body” or “exiled from it” (e.g. dead), Paul stated that “all the truth about us will be brought out in the law court of Christ, and each of us will get what he deserves for the things he DID in the body, good and bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).
              Link

            • The Raven

              Hmm. If we are brought before a judge for what we did in the past life most would be put to death. It appears to me that we are held to account for what we do in the new life when we no longer have any excuses. Doesnt jehovah say he will not call to mind our sins unless we commit more? … I don’t doubt that some will be raised to stern warnings. Lets face it we had some truly awful folks walking this earth throughout history.

            • Craig Knight

              WT says acquitted from sins in Romans 6:7 If all people who have died will be acquitted then why do we need Christ’s ransom sacrifice? Let’s party hearty and die then we will be aquitted automatically. I think Romans just means we should die to sin and nothing further. We will all be judged by our deeds good or bad. That makes more sense to me anyway. But the righteous and the unrighteous get resurrected so maybe it’s a moot point! 🙂

            • The Raven

              Wt? I’m not familiar with their view on this. I cannot see people being raised up during judgement day just to be executed for past sins. Whats the point in a second chance without the devil’s influence then? Now folks will be raised to rebukes for some who were really bad but christ not only paid for our sins he also made it possible to give us all life again. Didn’t he say there was only one unforgivable sin?And no, we that know the truth cannot continue to willfully sin. The vast majority of mankind does not.

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        I like your example the thief who executed along with jesue was a sinner. He was never Baptisted. He sees and accepts Jesus when he is on the torture stake. Did not Jesus accepted him? Well Reynolds you adding to my insights. Thanx

    • Nigel

      Great question!

      There is one case that I know of: in Acts 10, where Cornelius & his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptised.

      But it seems that it may have been only a matter of hours, or even minutes, before they were actually baptised…

    • Bklyn Kevin

      King Cyrus was not baptized with water yet he was anointed to carry out Jehovah’s task.

      This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus Isaiah 45:1.Read more>
      https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/45/#v23045001-v23045008

      • into the light

        By that logic all of the Israelite kings are part of 144000.

        Edit:
        I’m pretty sure revv_zone was talking about being spirit annointed.

        • Richard Long

          As well as the prophets and a few select enemies of Jehovah used to scourge his people. But that brings us back to my request for Revv to more clearly define his premise.

        • Richard Long

          I’d hold your ground on that one, as Jehovah’s prophet never anointed Cyrus with oil prior to his use as an instrument of Jehovah.

          • into the light

            In Cyrus’ case it was a prophecy and IMO, it has symbolic meaning. Hence, using it as a proof is out of place in this case.

      • Richard Long

        Kevin, please! Is so learned a man going to apply Cyrus, who according to the WT cannot possibly aspire to the first resurrection, anointment preceding Christian baptism? As the capable and devoted chief archivist of the work of Robert King, surely you remember Robert has authoritatively argued that no resurrection of the ancient dead not in Christ may take place prior to Armageddon, and that the end of Christianity occurs early in the parousia and prior to Armageddon? Maybe argue the case for Paul instead?

        • Bklyn Kevin

          I’m totally clueless as to what you are trying to tell me because quite frankly I just simply answered some ones question with the scriptures and said nothing more or less about it.
          For instance I said nothing about the first resurrection or Armageddon as well as the Parousia yet you seem to imply I did, just read my dialog below and you’ll see for sure I did not mention anything concerning those subjects.

          Bklyn Kevin Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834 • 7 hours ago
          King Cyrus was not baptized with water yet he was anointed to carry out Jehovah’s task.
          This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus Isaiah 45:1.Read more>
          https://www.jw.org/en/publi

          • Richard Long

            As implied in the direct request to revv to further define what was to be understood as “the anointed”, the premise of his question was unclear. As presented by revv, it could ONLY be clear in the condition of JW dogma that “the anointed” which we would all have to assume as it was not made clear in the premise of the question. IF we were to make that assumption, “the anointed” Cyrus of Persia could not possibly be used as an example of an WT defined “anointed Christian”, namely one now living or dead who has received the helper, the Holy Spirit as promised from Jesus. To do so would be scriptural malpractice, which the WT, according to even such an esteemed person as our brother Robert, has taught us to do with both skill and aplomb, and flagrant abandon of conscience as well. To have been misled is no lasting shame on our part, forgiven instantly by Jehovah upon request, but to persist in doing what known and proven liar have taught us to do

            • Jamie Mac

              Hi Rich

              No need to refrain from voicing your observations. Absolutely no need. You are one of many here with the same desires and hope for the future. Minor issues can easily be rectified if all parties want that to happen.

              Besides that I consider you a long time stalwart concerning the TTATT and I enjoy reading your comments 🙂

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        You cleared my doubt that was with in me.

    • The Raven

      Hi revv! Here’s what I found on the subject:
      https://e-watchman.com/baptisms-and-anointing/

  • Alex Henrique

    [OFF TOPIC] I just read an article on the HackDay website. I think we have a lot to learn from Richard Feynman.

    “…People and organizations still fool themselves in similar ways today,
    and lack of communication is always a factor. But fooling others always
    starts with fooling oneself, and when it comes to that Feynman had clear
    advice: “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and
    you are the easiest person to fool. After you’ve not fooled yourself,
    it’s easy not to fool others. You just have to be honest in a
    conventional way after that.”

    https://hackaday.com/2017/10/02/books-you-should-read-feynmans-appendix-to-the-challenger-disaster-report/

    • Burt Reynolds

      That’s very true. The problem is knowing if you are fooling yourself or if it’s true. Have you ever wondered (as the awake used to ask) if faith is the primary maker of fools? That is why I have always based my faith on creation as my touchstone. It is the only constant that is a reliable test of faith or fool, from the ‘bacterial motor’, to the enormity of the universe, from the laws of gravity, to its effect on time. (How did those laws come into place? At random?) It tends to keep a lid on doubt. I think Jehovah’s sense of humour shines quite nicely on those left to try to explain evolution. ‘Fifty three million years ago, the first fish crawled out of the sea, to walk on land….sight developed from a light sensitive scale on it head….’ Creation is a good balance too, on the ‘wise’ sayings of man. Is it foolish to ask a question, and if it is, is it foolish to believe the answer, or foolish to not believe the answer. What if we do live in false sense of reality, as described in the matrix? And if we do, where is the computer plugged in?

      • Isaac of Coimbatore

        If anybody says to you man came from monkey just ask him how the feeling of shame came to man? Which animal feels shame simply because it is naked not wearing clothes.

        • Burt Reynolds

          I understand what you mean Isaac, but you do not have to travel far in any country to find thugs with no shame. So they would point to that fact and say some of us are still evolving. In terms of sarcasm, I would agree with them!

          • Isaac of Coimbatore

            Is not Satan prompting such acts so that people may think once upon a time we all came from monkeys? I ask them If man came from monkey why we are not attracted to a monkey to make a family? Once I asked a man who believed in evolution and who happened to met in street witnessing. He got little wild at me as he was unable to answer. There is one more thing if man came from monkey why it is impossible to get a hybrid monkey man. You mean Hindus already did that with their Hanuman god
            See the word Hanuman. If you remove the alphabets an between H and u. It becomes Human. Oh LOL.

          • Richard Long

            I would submit it as proof the human race is DEvolving!

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