If Jehovah knows all, why did he bother?

//If Jehovah knows all, why did he bother?

Question: If Jehovah is all-knowing, then he had to have known that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would follow. Since God had to have known beforehand, why did he go through with it and allow all the misery and mayhem? Doesn’t that make him responsible for all of the evil in the world?

Jehovah endowed angels and humans with the gift of free will. We can choose our own course. Obviously, then, the Creator is aware that the potential exists that some or even all individuals may choose not to submit to his rule. But God possesses other qualities other than foreknowledge. He is the source of wisdom and power and the personification of love. So, it doesn’t really matter what his creatures choose to do or not do. God’s will cannot be thwarted —only defied and resisted temporarily.

God’s wisdom came to the fore on the very day Adam and Eve subjected themselves to the Devil. That is when God announced his response to the rebellion, saying to the serpent: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

There, encapsulated in one simple enigmatic statement, Jehovah laid out the resolution. Without going into detail, Jehovah’s Witnesses know that the primary offspring of the “woman” is Jesus. His being struck on the heel by the serpent had to do with his death. It is described as a heel wound because Jesus’ death was only temporary since he was resurrected to immortal life in heaven –as opposed to the crushing head wound destined to be inflicted upon the serpent that will mean his permanent extinction.

As the last book of the Bible indicates the execution of Satan and his offspring will occur after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ will have eliminated all traces of original sin and restored mankind to the perfection that Adam and Eve originally possessed. All the evils that humanity has suffered will be undone. It will be as though the proud Satan never even existed.

Certainly, the way Jehovah has responded —giving his Son, even allowing for some of sinful humanity to become immortal life-givers themselves, will be a cause of everlasting glory and honor to God —far surpassing the honor he would have received had the rebellion not taken place in the first place. As a result of God allowing the evil to temporarily prevail and even culminate in near-self-extinction in the great tribulation, it is hard to imagine that anyone in the future, be it a human or angel or something as-of-yet uncreated, would ever doubt or question Jehovah’s character or right to rule his creation, ever again. That is God’s wisdom.

As for the question, why did God create mankind if he knew they would not turn out the way he wished, we might liken the situation to human parents. Mothers and fathers realize that their children may not grow up to be the sort of adults the parents had hoped. Or worse, parents know that they will suffer heartache if their children suffer some horrible tragedy or illness. Still, millions of people choose to have children and hope for the best.

So, while God certainly knew that the angels could rebel against him and cause great harm, and he knew that Adam and Eve could choose to disobey him and bring death and ruin upon their offspring, Jehovah did not allow that to alter his intention to fill the earth with beautiful people living in paradise.

In a sense, though, God is responsible for the evil; not that he causes it or wishes it, but that he allows it, temporarily, in order to accomplish a much greater good. Paul explained it this way: “For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

Post Script

The Scriptures indicate that God does not choose to use foreknowledge to know how creatures will decide. For example, Jehovah observed that Cain was harboring jealously that could lead to murder and so he warned Cain of the terrible consequences if he were not to get the mastery over his feelings, and then he posed the question to Cain: “but will you get the mastery over it?” Had Jehovah known the outcome would he have presented the question to Cain?

Moreover, prior to the Flood Jehovah said that he regretted that he had made man. But if God had known the outcome beforehand why would he subject himself to heartache and regret?

2017-05-25T15:15:50+00:00May 21st, 2017|Mailbag|269 Comments


  1. D.A. sports, its in the game May 21, 2017 at 2:00 pm

    its not that Jehovah knew they would rebel but that it was quite possible and what actions would then need to be done if they did

    • Huldah May 21, 2017 at 4:44 pm

      Hi DA
      What is it that makes some of us think as we do?

      One particularly noxious elder was continually trying to convince my husband that we should have kids.
      My husband finally ended it by saying, “I don’t want to love something that much in Satan’s world.”

      After 8 years of marriage to a sociopath, my sister decided to have two kids with him. One day I’ll recount the horrific nightmare that our family was raked through. Still ongoing actually( And yep he’s the son of an active sister in the cong who is as much a sociopath as he is.)

      I know that I would feel responsible for all the horrors Satan has caused if I had created the universe.
      I wonder too why Jehovah doesn’t see it that way.

      On the positive side, it shows me that I am way too hard on myself taking responsibility for what I can’t control and delving too deeply into pain I can’t fix.

      • D.A. sports, its in the game May 21, 2017 at 7:27 pm

        ive tried tying a couple times but backspaced it several times so i’ll say its not my intention to just speak bad about people but everyone i talk to in public feels like im talking to the walking dead. yet some people i see on the inter-webs i enjoy watching and i am fond of humans while i also hate em. knowing Jehovah and reality of things make you unplugged from the matrix

        • Huldah May 21, 2017 at 8:12 pm

          There is no better illustration for the world we live in than The Matrix.
          Can’t count how many times I’ve used that for the mindless slavish zombieism of our times, the parasitic system or the tendency to sell out cause facing the truth is too hard.

          • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 2:14 am

            Have you ever been able to figure out why zombies have so much difficulty walking and hold their arms out? I think it’s one of the great mysteries of our times, only surpassed by toasters that are too small to take a slice of bread and only toast one side…..but that may be just a problem here in England.

            • Huldah May 23, 2017 at 9:21 am

              A greater mystery to me is how it is that zombies eat brains but never get any smarter. I guess brains are not ‘brain food’.

              As far as English toasters go, I suspect it has something to do with the fact that y’all keep stuffing crumpets down into their slots as y’all are loathe to have your tea without crumpets!

              At least that’s what I heard here in the states.

            • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 11:17 am

              That gave me a good laugh about brains. As for crumpets, Sunday morning with a nice cup of tea, butter and jam. Afternoon tea: smoked salmon and cucumber sandwiches, Earl grey tea, from Harrods of course, or jasmine tea should the ladies be present, and a Victoria sponge cake. Cups must of course be of bone china. Four o’clock sharp, served by Carruthers, or if he is not on duty, Hodgkins. Silver service by the croquet lawn, or in the Drawing Room if wet. I understand our American cousins have their afternoon tea served by chap named McDonald. We of course would not employ the Scottish; far too rowdy and difficult to understand.

            • Huldah May 23, 2017 at 2:53 pm

              Lol….Highfalutin bunch you are! Sounds really good though cause I’m super hungry.

              Guess I’ll settle for McDonald. It’s probably the drive thru intercom that makes him difficult to understand.

            • Jamie Mac May 23, 2017 at 3:57 pm

              Go easy of those McDonald’s Huldah. They will rot your brain.

            • Huldah May 23, 2017 at 7:49 pm

              Whatever keeps the zombies away.

            • Brian May 23, 2017 at 5:55 pm

              How about the G&T at 4!

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 2:17 am

              Mother has her T&G served from a converted silver tea urn, thus being on tap twenty four hours a day. I have my hip flask complete with Stirrup Cup, and an emergency phile within my walking cane. Had a frightful time the other day when out with the dawg, I had picked up my sword stick by mistake and had to fall back on Carruthers for a bracer. Poor show all round.

            • Brian May 24, 2017 at 5:43 am

              Love it,only a Brit or someone from the “colonies” would get this!

            • Jamie Mac May 24, 2017 at 4:49 pm

              Egg wetter gree, el chip , or as us commoners say I’m with you on that me old mate

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:18 am

              I had to read that a couple of times! I had a boss long ago, who every Friday would say ‘see yourh Mondee.’

            • Jamie Mac May 25, 2017 at 3:38 am

              Hi Burt, that last comment was Mirsten choiple.

            • Joseph S. May 23, 2017 at 8:27 pm

              What a fine English Gentlemen with a fascinating sense of humor!?☕?☕

            • Jamie Mac May 23, 2017 at 3:55 pm

              Another mystery is why do we see only one abandoned shoe at the roadside. I don’t think I have ever seen a complete pair abandoned at the roadside.

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 2:30 am

              Maybe it’s from a zombie…..walking along the road, leg drops off, fox eats leg, leaves the old shoe. ‘Shoe happens’ as they say in fox circles.

            • sally May 23, 2017 at 5:14 pm

              I have that toaster Burt. Seriously I do. It does a mean crumpet though!

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 2:21 am

              I wrote to the manufacturer and asked them why they made them that way, but though they replied they did not address the problem, just gave an evasive answer inferring I had bought their toaster for smaller loaves. They wouldn’t put up with this in the States. We have to toast our Sunday crumpet twice, turning it around. It’s just not cricket.

            • Brian May 24, 2017 at 5:49 am

              Is there another POHM here?

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 12:59 pm

              What is a POHM?

            • Jamie Mac May 24, 2017 at 4:46 pm

              Hi Burt,

              A mildly derogatory term used by Australians and Kiwis to refer to the English people. The term originates from the abbreviation “PoHM”, which stood for “Prisoner of Her Majesty” and was used to describe the convicts shipped from Britain and Ireland to Australia in the 18th and 19th centuries. The term was turned on its head, and is used in reference to the fact that the English are still, in the 21st century, stuck in Britain, while the Australians are now free from the British Government, living in independent Australia.

            • Brian May 25, 2017 at 12:48 am

              Pretty much but the turning on its head would really only be a very late application. It was used profoundly in the time of the “10 pound pohm”, when there was mass migration post WW2, the first wave came by boat and so did the 10 pounders! Of course the whole “penal colony” history has been blown way out of proportion as there were as many “free settlers, Squatters” arriving with the convict ships and many more followed suit after the convict ships…..it makes for a good tale though!! : )

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 2:25 am

              you just obligated yourself to explain who or what the “10 pounders” were. :p

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:12 am

              You could get on a boat from England to Oz, courtesy of Oz government for just £10. You didn’t even need a job to go to. Now it’s like trying to break into the Bank of England to get in, which is odd, because most back then in Oz had done just that, or very similar.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 3:14 am


            • Jamie Mac May 25, 2017 at 3:27 am

              Hi Richard, looks like we are back on the McDonald’s theme again. 🙂

            • Brian May 25, 2017 at 5:12 am

              The 10 pounders were the Brits and their families that came here under an Australian funded immigration scheme post WW2, their contribution was 10 pounds (English currency at the time) to get passage to OZ, I’m pretty sure it was still operating after we changed currencies and well up into the 70’s. Preference was given to skilled trades people.

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:06 am

              Oh right! I’m not surprised it got turned around. I wouldn’t mind going on walkabout in the outback.

            • Jamie Mac May 25, 2017 at 3:29 am

              You will get your chance one day Burt, only it will have been transformed into a beautiful paradise by the time you get to do it.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 3:31 am

              But, hopefully the Uluru will still be there. I can Teleport to Alice Springs!

            • Brian May 24, 2017 at 8:06 pm

              What we in OZ call the English, “prisoner of her/his majesty”

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:04 am

              Brilliant! It’s funny because it’s true. All these years I’ve been labouring under the idea that those in Oz viewed us as Pommys, stemming from (Great War) Tommys and had something to do with English apples! Now it all makes sense in that it must apply to you lot being the descendants of all the ‘crims’ we exported to Oz! Mind you, I think we exported a few to Africa and America as well, judging by the frequency in which presidents seem to have a link to England. Ah, England, exporter of criminals to the world. Trouble is we seem to keep the best for ourselves and call the politicians.

            • Brian May 25, 2017 at 5:14 am

              Yes, but we also managed to get enough of the gentry to “run the show old chap” and therefore have a similar bunch of crims running the show as you guys do!

          • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 10:12 am

            Having read this comment a couple days back, I was reminded of it as my 15 yr old daughter and I were driving to school this morning. The context is a project she had to complete for a class that ended up costing about $75 out of our pockets. For perspective, I related to my girl that her older sister, now working at Walmart to help fund her education, works an ENTIRE DAY for about that amount of money. The discussion undertook to help her understand that while the $75 was a mere aggravation for us, it likely posed a real hardship for the families of some of her classmates.

            The project: supplement your presentation of your report on another nation with a colloquial, food FOR 35 PEOPLE.. As I explained that for about $100 I could have a month of emergency food (1800 calories a day) for one person dropped just about anywhere with an address.

            This instance is another example of how the schools are the pot we frogs are slowly cooked alive in. My daughter, who isn’t particularly interested in the bible, was just conditioned to provide the resources and labor to the “Empire” for the accomplishment of its goals, with minimal or no benefit to herself. In the end, she asked me: “Dad, why does everything come back to that (the empire)? ” All I could say is, “because everything does”.

            • Huldah May 24, 2017 at 10:33 am

              Profoundly ‘everything will come back to the empire’.
              Ron Paul keeps talking about Financial Martial Law.
              That’s when it will all truly go back to the empire. When they become tyrants by sheer necessity and commandeer everything we have spent so many years in the Matrix accruing.
              Bank accounts, retirement plans, real estate etc…
              The illusion of human rights and ownership will be replaced with the stark reality that we are just cogs in the wheel of a ruthless machine that dangled carrots in front of us and spewed out a bunch of niceties to keep us under it’s control.

        • Huldah May 22, 2017 at 10:34 am

          When you know what’s coming and you yourself are dealing with real problems, it compounds the misery to see a bunch of dumb grins on everyone’s faces. (In or outside the congregation.) Ignorance is bliss.

          It’s not really that misery loves company, it’s that misery needs acknowledgement.

          • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 2:46 pm

            Yes. You are absolutely right.

        • Brian May 24, 2017 at 5:53 am

          DA, do you have issues, you are fond of “humans” but have issues, really, it is all about humans here on planet earth and yes some are a little out “there”, you shouldn’t let this eat you up because if it does you won’t be any good for anyone including yourself.

      • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 11:44 am

        Hi Huldah! First sentence, question is excellent! Fundamental question 🙂

      • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 2:09 am

        I remember the days where we had the elders figuratively ‘in the bedroom’, but they seemed to ease off by the 80s.

    • D.A. sports, its in the game May 21, 2017 at 11:08 pm


      • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 2:40 am

        It is a sort of toxin but not from the ‘Apple’. The scripture says that through that one act, sin entered the world. There are spiritual and physical issues resulting from this. Sin…falling short of the mark…no longer perfect. But life does not degenerate. The body does and thus reaches a point whereby life can no longer be sustained physically by the body. Life is animation. If we cannot animate it, it does not exist. It becomes inert. It is thought that the system that causes this degeneration is due to the ‘shortening’ of what are called T cells as they regenerate naturally along with all other cells. It is thought that these T cells govern the rate of aging, but nobody knows why they degenerate. There is no physical reason for their doing so. But in this way, lifespan is limited. If they did not degenerate, then their governance over the body would be total and the body would continue in perpetuity. Clearly there is more to be said of the cooperation of cells with each other in the body, and in the question of what life is, in that it does not necessarily need a body to be conscious of its existence. However, that is the shaky limit in my understanding of biology.

        • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 11:40 am

          Hi Burt! While reading your comment it produce some question that i ask myself. Many animals and plants living much longer than human today. Report from book said that Adam lived almost 1000 years and many in those time also. If it is true that all creation was under God’s sanction that also mean that all animals and plants living shorter than that was been a plan in a first place. But i wonder why life span of humans are cuted so much in comparison to some other creations on Earth. For example why people not living 500 years and then go to dye. Yeah, i know what is official WT explanation on that, but maybe you have some other idea :))

          • John 3:16 May 22, 2017 at 12:15 pm

            I think it’s a good thing that certain plants and animals live longer than us. We, as a species, keep progressing from bad to worse. Our life spans are the only thing keeping us in check. As each generation passes away, following generations just end up repeating many of the same mistakes. That slows down our advancement to a point. Take that out of the equation and the bad in us would just continue to grow. We’d perfect evil in ourselves, especially in this world of greed and hate.

          • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 2:42 pm

            The short answer is that no one knows why we live the length of time that we do and that Jehovah determined. 70 years. However, there are some biblical issues that may have a bearing. The command at the time of Eden was to fill the earth and subdue it. Well we have done that for sure and it would have been done a lot sooner had sin not entered the equation. Jehovah’s purpose does not change. Second, Jehovah said that he wants no one to die but for all to live. But the choice is ours. A great crowd will survive. Why? I don’t know. How many? I don’t know, but it does go some way in explanation in that Jehovah wants everyone to live and he may have included in that statement, all who would otherwise have lived earlier. I have no basis for believing this, it’s just a thought.

          • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 10:27 am

            Perhaps another way to look at it is that mankind is under development, and said development was merely interrupted by a “fire in the the laboratory” at a critical early juncture. Once the fire is extinguished, the laboratory is rebuilt, and the suitability and integrity of the specimens can be verified , development will resume.

            • Srecko Sostar May 24, 2017 at 3:19 pm

              yeah, development for sure 🙂

      • Huldah May 22, 2017 at 1:55 pm

        Seems to me that once man sinned they disconnected from a power source that very slowly ran out over time. I think that idea is in the old Paradise book. As Robert mentioned, the demons are also aging and dying, just extremely slowly, maybe due to their being in Tartarus, disconnected from Jehovah. Their long life spans indicate the strength of the power of the life force.

        I’ve always thought that we receive life force from Jehovah at conception. It is so strong that it keeps us fresh and young for years, but eventually, gradually, it seeps out like a powerful smartphone battery.

        I think of the T Cells Burt mentioned as being Jehovah’s built in “kill switch” . As we all know, only Christ and the anointed have life in themselves, but Jehovah reserves the right with us to control our life force and the continuance of it. If you ever watched “The Invisible Man” Sci Fi Channel, the designer of the invisibility gland, designed it with a weakness that required a counteragent shot to keep the host from going crazy. It’s a control measure. Sounds diabolical, but just think what a fix we’d be in if Satan and the demons had life in themselves as Jesus does. Maybe the T Cells shorten the longer we are away from the power source. While we still face the issue of human integrity and universal sovereignty a safeguard needs to be in place to prevent the wicked from becoming too powerful.

        As the creator, Jehovah has the right to set up controls and safeguards on his creation, even so, he will rejoice to be able to give the anointed life in themselves and the other sheep life without end. Perhaps he will make some special provision after the 1,000 year test for us to have a self sustaining form of everlasting life, just a thought. Once we prove our loyalty, a kill switch will no longer be necessary.

        Makes me think of the longer life spans of the generations before the flood. Environment has to have something to do with it. Sort of like when you leave a wicker chair outsides vs keeping it in the house. It wears much more quickly. We aren’t living in an ideal climate, since the canopy over the earth was lost in the flood.

        Just my basic conclusions, after years of wondering about the topic. Lots of holes in my theory I’m sure.
        It’s interesting to read the well thought out comments here.

  2. Srecko Sostar May 21, 2017 at 2:17 pm

    Hi Robert! You opened very controversial, emotional and difficult issue. Harder than any previous on your site. 🙂 and perhaps the only one that will stay ultimate topic forever 🙂
    Just first thought on comparison with parents, family and children. Perhaps it would be difficult to find parents that would agree to put to death own children or one of them for reason that their children may not grow up as they wished, hoped.

    • Arvid Fløysand May 21, 2017 at 7:16 pm

      “So i went down to the house of the potter,and he was working on the potters weels.
      But the vessel that the potter was making with the clay was spoiled in his hand.
      So the potter reworked it into another vessel,just as he saw fit.
      Then the word of Jehovah came to me saying: Can I not do to you just as this potter did,O house of Israel? declares Jehovah.
      Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter,so are you in my hand,O house of Israel.” (Jer.18:3-6)
      Jehovah is first of all our Creator that actually have made us of clay…and a potter have no emosional problems with reworking a vessel…But when looking closer on this illustration,we see that the potter do not toss away the clay…he reworked it.
      But that is only possible when the clay is soft and “willing” to be formed by the “potters” hand.
      Later when all the vessels got their final form each for their purpose,it will be too late to rework them and there will be no reason to do so because they are all perfect made by the master-potter.
      Lets say there is a absotutley beautiful vessel made only for food of high quality but instead beeing used in a bad way only to irritate ore hurt the potter…lets say,used as a lavatory over a long period of time.
      Would the potter be happy about such behaviour…and how could that vessel ever be used for food?
      Who is there to blame?
      Maybe the vessel still could be “saved” by cleanse it with lye and maybe let it be cleansed by fire .
      If not …then maybe the potter would just break it just like Jehovah told Jeremiah to do in chapter 19.
      As far as i can understand…Jehovah can chose if he like to look at all His living cratures just like a potter look at his clay and vessels that is without life in it self .
      Ore he can choose to look at us like the most loving father..
      After all He is the one where all emotios orginate…and even the ability to put emotions away ..
      And before anything at all where created and it was only Jehovah Himself..He was not missing anything at all..He was complete and would still be if He would like to nullify everything…
      Good for us,Jehovah has decided and given His word on it,that He will take care of everything and restore,rework and cleance all in heaven and on earth with compassion and love.
      But all that is too late ore not possible to fix…He will turn of the compassion and love..than it will be destroyed in His rightiousness …We struggle to control our feelings..Jehovah own all feelings 🙂

      • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 12:57 pm

        Hi Arvid! This illustration is one of not easy to “swallow”. In one short period of my youth (when i was been in prison for neutrality 🙂 i have a chance to learned and working with clay. One academic sculptor was teaching few of us how to making some product from clay. There is several sorts of clay, different colors, but to work anything with this sort of dust you need water. Water and your hands and mixing, mixing until material not came to fine mixture, not too hard, not too soft. While in process, yes you can change your plan, your techniques, your purpose, your esthetic, etc. But when you finished with shaping, job was not done. Clay have to be on air to dry. But you can not left it as that. After some time you have to put on baking on high temperature. After that when stuff is baked, you can put some colors or hand arts for better looking.
        But in fact last point in process is baking, after you put it in owen on temperature and high warm air to backing it – that is a point of no return!!
        After that no changing is possible!! No reworking!!
        Are we already “baken”?? When in our life time that process coming and when is finished??
        Illustrations, all illustrations have always have something that can not give full and real picture. We can pick something from them, but another questions arise.
        Details are many here, and because of time and fast thoughts and because english is not my first language i will stop here on commenting.
        But these illustration on potter and clay, for me, more going to some predestination on humans or having fun in playing with clay. How to harmonize my feelings with a feelings of potter :))??

        • John 3:16 May 22, 2017 at 2:05 pm

          Your comment about the clay being baked reminds me of how fire is used as a symbol in scripture to refine us. If we succeed in allowing ourselves to be baked into a proper condition, Jehovah will be happy. Don’t succeed, and we get destroyed.

          • Srecko Sostar May 23, 2017 at 6:35 am

            thanks for join on comments John. In this illustration on clay, potter is that “force” for refining us, not fire. But clay is clay. If person who working with clay have no interest to refine clay that is in some way of lover quality, what clay can do to change itself? Nothing! Everything depends on potter!
            Arvid said in his comment; “clay have to “willing” to be formed by the “potters” hand”. I think i can not look in this way. Water and mixing and cleaning done by potter can change my structure, not my willing itself.
            I as “clay with free will” must be in water, on air and wind to soften and maybe will change in some direction.
            In bible clay illustration all depends on potter. That clay have “no free will”, and thus can not giving question why i am looking like this or that, why you using me like this or like that.
            Human clay have free will and such presenting in which human clay cannot ask question is problematic for me.
            I will going more deeper now with one question:
            Why existing command that people must, have to LOVE God?
            Is not love something that coming inside us as free emotion according to free will that is given to human? Why Law have this command? And even Jesus reply it in his answer in same way. Or he just said so because of Jew people who respected Old testament law?

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 4:51 am

              Hi Srecko! Someday, if not too personal and painful, you must recount to us the story of your imprisonment. For ones like me never yet undergoing such severe persecution, you represent a faith strengthening heroism.

              “Arvid said in his comment; “clay have to “willing” to be formed by the “potters” hand”. I think i can not look in this way.”

              Maybe a small tweak in perspective here. Perhaps the total extent the clay can exert it’s will here is to accept or not accept what the potter has done with it. You rightly say that the matter is boiled down to the potter – does the clay trust the potters wisdom in assigning the purpose for the vessels use.

              What I did not see in any of the discussion was consideration of the original intent. In our case, should we not have faith that we were all intended to be fine vessels for honorable use, and it is in opposition to the potters will that Satan, our first parent, this system and life alienated from the potter in general have conspired to cause we fine vessels to be used dishonorably as chamber pots?

              The following is personal opinion, albeit, hopefully, a scripturally informed one, and open to correction by anyone who thinks I’ve missed the mark::

              Regarding the first of the 10 commandments, the one Jesus repeated as the greatest of all, wouldn’t you agree such a demand as “you MUST love”, even the whole body of the law, only have meaning for those under the law. Basic contract law requires offer, acceptance and consideration. The Israelite’s were offered a special relationship with the creator under the terms of the Mosaic law and are on record as accepting those terms. Of the entire world population from Adam to Jesus, only the Israelite’s were under obligation to “love God”, they placing THEMSELVES under this obligation by accepting the consideration (benefits) offered by Jehovah in His contract proposal.

              The followers (offer) of Christ, on the other hand, appear to have obligated themselves by virtue of their baptism (acceptance) only to the first two commandments of the Mosaic Law. These, if observed carefully and consistently, would apparently eliminate the need for careful compliance with the other six hundred plus while placing individuals in line for admittance to the Kingdom (consideration).

              I am personally grateful to have the entire law recorded so that my thick head can more fully understand what compliance with the first two commandments would look like from Jehovah’s perspective.

              Meanwhile, It would appear that Non-Christians, including the now rejected natural Israelite’s (voided contract), are NOT under obligation to love God. No covenant = no obligation.

              Hope this is helpful.

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:29 am

              I’m with you on this one Richard. Srecko should tell us his experience if not too painful emotionally to revisit that time. He is a hero!

  3. Max May 21, 2017 at 3:14 pm

    I believe that every JW and every person on earth have asked themselves the same question. I know I have… and one thing has always kept me from turning against Jehovah and that is the knowledge that He is love and that as a loving father He sometimes allows painful things to happen to us so we could grow spiritually. I remember when I was a little boy I would often get smal splinters in my feet during summer and my mother would use a needle to remove them. I was so afraid of the needle that I wouldn’t say anything until the splinter was so painful that I was not able to walk anymore and even then I most often preferred to keep the splinter rather to submit myself to the needle. As adults we still carry those painful spiritual splinters and Jehovah is ready to remove them so we must trust our loving father and let him be the refiner so he could make us shine. And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must clarify them like gold and silver and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. (Malachi 3:3)

  4. Joseph S. May 21, 2017 at 4:37 pm
    • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 12:11 pm

      :))) very good!

  5. Huldah May 21, 2017 at 5:07 pm

    Good topic Robert. Glad you ended with Paul’s words.

    I was thinking about this a lot recently and came to the conclusion that many of us as humans have been taught a form of misplaced blame and gulit.

    I think Satan loves to use guilt as a tool.

    I suppose Jehovah is giving us an object lesson in a proper sense of culpability.

    We go forward with a decision with good intentions, do our best to weigh the pros and cons. If something gets messed up as we go along we handle it with whatever solution we have at our disposal, even if it’s still a long drawn out mess to fix. If the worst happens, cause we knew it could happen, we just accept it and accept ourselves not as failures but as someone who never gives up…”on the basis of hope”.

    Blame and guilt, so often an integral part of our lives, should be relegated to the back closet along with the bread machine. Once you thought you couldn’t live without it, now you wonder why you still keep it around at all.

  6. Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    It’s pretty clear to me that Jehovah knew that Adam would sin even before he set his plan into motion. He actually says fairly prophetically in Genesis 2:17 “But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, ((( for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” )))+ He does not say “if” you eat from it, no he says “in the day you “eat” from it, you will positively die.”

    Jehovah always knew that Adam could not stand up to the intelligence and trickery of Satan. Adam was very young and for all intent and purpose, about as naive as you can get. His only experience up to this point was that he could do anything and there were no negative consequences. He was the definition of naive.

    Eve was even younger and more naive. Neither of them were a challenge to an intelligent and not so righteous spirit being who had been placed in a position of oversight of the two new humans, a postiont that he so clearly abused. I think this is/was more of a test on Satan than it was on Adam. It revealed Satan’s true personality in a format that could not be covered up.

    This is truly one of your best works, and you have many fine ones. Thanks for it!

    • Max May 21, 2017 at 6:48 pm

      Very interesting post Francis… The think is that Adam was not tricked by Satan Eve was. Adam fall was the result of plain disloyalty he didn’t develop enough love for his creator to being able to resist Satan. He should have loved Jehovah more than he loved Eve… He didn’t so the consequences we all suffer today.

      • Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 10:00 pm

        You are correct Max, Adam should have showed more loyalty to his Creator than he did, but that does not change the fact that Jehovah knew that there was a good chance that he would do exactly that by his expression “for in the day you eat from it, you will positively die”. Have you ever NOT done the right thing because someone you loved very much wanted you to do something else. If you haven’t, many men have followed Adam’s example and put their love of their wife or someone else before their love of Jehovah. I see it happen all the time. During the years that I was a JW and since then I have seen it happen time after time in mirroring the unloving act of Adam. Jehovah knew that this would happen and he had already devised the cure. Jesus stepped forward and said, “Here I am, send me”.

        Adam and Eve were little children from an experience standpoint. Satan had been plying his trade for thousands, possibly millions of years prior to being placed as man’s caretaker. He was the chosen Cherub at that time. Satan had been showing a tendency toward sin in the spirit realm but Jehovah wanted “physical” evidence, which apparently was absent in the spirit realm for whatever reason that I just don’t completely understand. This was to bring out the fact that Satan was a sinner, and labeled him with the moniker “the Father of the Lie”. This whole affair has been exactly what mankind needed to understand the difference between good and bad. This is all of our grade-school and High School on understanding what good and bad is. the Kingdom of God will be our University on the subject.

        There is evidence that Adam and Eve showed repentance toward God by bringing up Abel in a God fearing way, knowing exactly when and how he was to offer up the correct sacrifice to God contrary to the fact that his brother Cain was not God fearing but followed the path of Satan in regard to his worship of Jehovah. He brought to the sacrifice on that day what he wanted to sacrifice and not two first-lings of the flock which would start the precedent of pointing forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. No, he offered up the fruits of a cursed earth that pointed backward toward his Fathers sin (no doubt with Satan’s approval) and not what the Messiah would do for mankind.

        • Max May 22, 2017 at 1:12 am

          So you are saying that Jehovah set up a trap for Satan so He could have physical evidence of this angel’s sinful tendencies and used the humans as bait for that purpose.

      • Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 10:22 pm


        This is a very prescient line from Watchman’s essay. “But God possesses other qualities other than foreknowledge. He is the source of wisdom and power and the ((( personification of love ))). So, it really doesn’t matter what his creatures choose to do or not do. God’s will cannot be thwarted —only defied and resisted temporarily.” (King, R. (2017).

        Jehovah knew that even if Adam and Eve did sin that he could fix whatever happened and he conspired with Michael to provide the ransom of Adam so that that original sin could be lifted off the head of all of mankind in one act of righteousness, just as it was placed around their necks by no fault of their own.

        But, in the meantime, we have all experienced in great detail the consequences of living life in an unsustainable way outside of Jehovah’s love and law. Robert called Jehovah “the personification of Love.” He doesn’t possess the quality of love in abundance, he IS LOVE. That is something that we as humans often sell Jehovah short on, his love.

        When the angels come with Jesus to do the final harvesting of mankind, as in “The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels.” Matt. 13:39, ask them if what I am saying here is true or is simply the ramblings of some nut. They won’t lie to you.


    • Thinking May 21, 2017 at 8:54 pm

      That doesn’t make any sense at all…if what you said was true.. Where is there any Justice and love In that…
      You have just misrepresented Jehovah on a insulting scale…
      Jehovah created Adam with his own full attributes of justice and intelligence and love etc.
      He was created with no naivety …otherwise Jehovah has deliberatly used man as bait and cannon fodder…..and who would even want to serve under a God like that…
      HE walked with Jehovah his father in the garden…he knew Him intimately ..far far better than any of us..he saw his creation and he fully understood what death was..
      The fact that Jesus came to earth and lived as a perfect man…shows you Francis that Adam could have been obedient if he wanted to …one perfect man failed and another perfect man passed….

      You have just tried to lay the ground work here for your demon inspired beliefs..and in fact have just shown you have no appreciation or understanding of Jehovah God and his personality..indeed his very essence …..what you wrote is so very very wrong…and is exactly what Satan would like many to beleive…

      • Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 9:39 pm

        Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were created “perfect” and that they were incapable of sin unless they committed the unforgivable sin. The Bible clearly says that Eve was “deceived”, which means she actually believed Satan’s lie. Adam showed that he loved Eve more than he loved Jehovah. By one error sin entered into the world and because of it all men sinned or inherited Adam’s sin. Likewise by one sinless sacrifice all are forgiven. Jesus sacrifice does not ransom all man in itself, his sacrifice ransoms Adam, which in turn forgives the sin that everyone inherited from Adam. By ransoming Adam, the Father of sin, after Satan of course, It is a life for life exchange. Not a life for 10 Billion lives exchange. Calling me a demon is a very serious thing to do Thinking. Just because I think differently than you does not make me a demon, it just makes me someone who views the evidence at hand a little differently than you do. I would think it is demonic thinking to say that people cannot have different thoughts about something without one necessarily being demonic. Watch yourself, that is a slippery slope.

        • Max May 21, 2017 at 10:19 pm

          The Bible may not say that Adam and Eve were perfect but if they weren’t then a perfect life as Jesus’s ramson wouldn’t have been necessary. And to say that they were not perfect means Jehovah made them imperfect which is exactly what Satan had said that Jehovah’s human creation was imperfect because they are unable to stay loyal under test. On the other hand we could say that Adam perfection was relative to the purpose that Jehovah made him for that is fill the earth with perfect humans so then he was created perfect for that purpose. Only Jehovah is perfect in the absolute sence. Perfection in everything or enyone else is limited. Creation is only perfect in relation to it purpose.

          • Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 10:38 pm

            Hi Max: They were perfect in that they were without sin, but they also had what Robert termed “free will” and could choose to sin. If Jehovah knew that Adam and Eve would sin as Robert suggests, and that their penalty would be everlasting death, would he not have counseled them before hand to be on guard like he did do with Cain? This was apparently all a part of Jehovah’s plan. It could be even deeper than we know or are aware of at this time. It is his plan and he can do whatever he wants to except sin. He is perfect and if he sinned it would be an unforgivable sin. That is not true of Adam and Eve as far as I can see by the available evidence. Remember, you believe that they committed an unforgivable sin because that is what you learned from the Watchtower. I don’t believe this was an attempt by the Watchtower to deceive their flock. I think it is just one of their many mistakes in interpreting Bible evidence. We are all guilty of that at one or more times in our lives for sure.

            • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 8:09 am

              You misquote Robert. Read it again.

          • Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 10:44 pm

            They were sinless, not perfect Max.

            • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 8:03 am

              That is a contradiction in terms from a biblical point of view. The whole issue rests on perfection and sinlessness.

        • Thinking May 22, 2017 at 12:11 am

          Don’t twist my words Francis..I never called you a demon…I said your beleifs were demon inspired …and they are…any one that reads your official web site can see that..
          ..The Message
          6-9 I can’t believe your fickleness—how easily you have turned traitor to him who called you by the grace of Christ by embracing a variant message! It is not a minor variation, you know; it is completely other, an alien message, a no-message, a lie about God. Those who are provoking this agitation among you are turning the Message of Christ on its head. Let me be blunt: If one of us—even if an angel from heaven!—were to preach something other than what we preached originally, let him be cursed. I said it once; I’ll say it again: If anyone, regardless of reputation or credentials, preaches something other than what you received originally, let him be cursed.

          • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 1:07 am

            What if the message you originally received was not correct? Then you would be in a terrible position. What if the message you received first was “The Finished Mystery”, would this still apply. No, teachings of the Watchtower have changed a great deal since Russell wrote the Finished Mystery. What exactly have I said here that is obviously the teachings of demons?

            • Thinking May 22, 2017 at 2:05 am

              This is what you are alluding to…to beleive this..which comes from your official page of which you are a USA representative .
              In believing this you are not believing the scriptures…so what gives there..and what of the thoughts you have of Eve..that she was like a child of three years old…in a woman’s body….thus promoting the thought…poor Eve she was naive….

              Adam: Born 4027 Tishri 10 (September/October 4027 BC), Died 3097 BC

              Genesis Chapters: 1,2,3

              Adam lived for 930 years. He was born like Jesus, an immaculate conception, to pre-adamic parents – see [244]. Adam was born with an indefinitely long life. Before he sinned he did not age. His body was a prophecy, an archetype for the bodies that humans will have in the Kingdom of God on earth. The whole garden of Eden was an archetype for the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the one that we pray for in the Lord’s prayer:

              9 You must pray, then, this way:

              Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

              10 Let your kingdom come.

              Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth (Matthew 6:9,10 – NWT).

              This is the Kingdom that Jesus preached about in the Gospels. It is important to realise that it is a real Kingdom (you know like the British Empire was for example), it will be worldwide, it lasts for 1,000 years, it begins with Armageddon, it starts soon and it will have citizens who are angels in heaven and citizens who are humans on the earth – see [8]. It is God and mankind’s victory through Jesus over our own failings and over the inherent weakness of our species, which lead to our death through Satan. It is the triumph of love over hate and jealousy through justice, the triumph of good over bad through hard work, the triumph of truth over dishonest abuse through logic and reason, and the triumph of life over death through Jesus and by God and despite Satan. For St. Paul said:

              10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in cases of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful (2 Corinthians 12).

              This is not some kind of philosophical contradiction. Paul is saying that when he is weak in man’s eyes, then he is strong in God’s eyes. And man is blind.

              The maximum lifespan of the sons of Adam started as 960 years. Then it dropped to 480 years after the flood. Then it dropped to 240 years in the days of Peleg (a son of Shem the son of Noah), and it finally dropped to the modern limit from God of 120 years in the days of Moses who lived for 120 years – see [235]. There were humans who lived longer than these maxima in these periods, but they were not sons of Adam, they were sons of God, as was Jesus. For example we have Jared the father of Enoch, who lived for 962 years and we have Methuselah, the son of Enoch who lived 969 years.

              20 So all the days of Jared amounted to 962 years and he died (Genesis 5).
              27 So all the days of Methuselah amounted to 969 years and he died (Genesis 5).

              Adam was not the first human born but was the first to be called ‘man’ by God. He was obviously very different from Homo sapiens that had existed in the form of Modern man (Cro magnon man or Homo Sapiens ‘Sapiens’) for around 100,000 years prior to this. Homo Sapiens or pre-adamic man, had existed for over 1 million years prior to that in the forms of Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, Archaic Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal man see – Millions of years of human fossils reconciled with Genesis at last.

              Adam was initially placed in the closed environment of the Garden of Eden, and remained there until he sinned in 3993 BC Nisan 14 (March/April) by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. He was then thrown out of the garden and started interacting with the rest of Homo Sapiens.

              God did not call Homo Sapiens ‘man’ until he introduced himself to us through Adam. So Adam was the first ‘man’ but not the first Human.

              The Location of the Garden of Eden today

            • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 3:11 pm

              You will need to convince me about the pre-adamic existence of man, in that Genesis states that in the beginning God created heaven and earth, and that the creation of man was included in the same scenario. ?

            • Thinking May 22, 2017 at 8:04 pm

              Lol…it’s not me that believes that Burt…..I posted that Info of of Francisis web page…
              I beleive what the scriptures say…I don’t cherry pick the bits I beleive in and don’t…
              I may not understand a lot…but the scriptures have proved to be totally reliable to me..and written down with the direction of Holy Spirit…
              If Jehovah says he…being Dynamic Energy….used soil to Create Adam amd breathed life force into his nostrils..then I beleive that senario…otherwise he would be lying to us and deceiving us..
              Sorry if I confused you….

            • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 1:48 am

              Thank heavens for that. My confusion over that provides a good contrast. That bit about pre-Adamic existence of man was so out out character I thought you had gone crazy. Now you point out its from Francis it fits in with his theme……an obtuse yet very revealing way!

            • Thinking May 23, 2017 at 2:00 am

              Hahahah…sorry ..I may be crazy but I’m not THAT CRAZY…lol..that was funny !!

            • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 6:27 am

              It is not the truth.

        • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 6:25 am

          That Christ died to ransome the life of Adam is true, but it is through that provision that we all can hope. Jesus has by dint of this act, allowed a pathway of redemption for us all. The bible says so. Allow Thinking her space for this. It’s not essentially incorrect.

          Adam did not make an error. He wilfully chose to disobey. Error refers to a mistake.
          To deliberately take a contrary course to cause harm, in this case murdering his entire offspring, is not a mistake but malice aforethought. You are diminishing the action and consequences and value of Christ’s sacrifice by referring to it otherwise in the heart of this person.

          When Christ spoke to the pharasees, he termed them as ‘from your father the devil’. It is as well for all of us to consider the context of this in what was being said by the pharasees that inboxed such a response from Jesus. I would, I should say, refrain from terming you a demon. I for one cannot boast anything like righteousness and neither would I. But it is prudent on all of us to consider if we provoke such a reaction in others who clearly have a good and honest appreciation of the scriptures, why they used such a strong term. Is it through ignorance? No. Is it through a desire to cause harm? No. Thinking was quite clear. It was what you said that cast aspersions on Jehovah that are simply not justified and less so from one such as yourself who does have insight. Only you can gauge the truth of this, yet if someone laid that accusation against me, I would look to myself, apologise for an unintended offence in the first instance to restore relations, and ask for an explanation as to why I caused such outrage. Hopefully, my accuser would respond and give me her rebuttal, whereupon I would check her words out from the bible and ask others in whom I value their truthfulness and word, insight and care, and see where it lead me. I would not lean upon my own understanding and seek to convince others of my correctness, even if I were correct, because as the bible says, we become all things to all men in order to gain that one. Neither would I have the confidence in my understanding to suggest that they were wrong to question me. I have learnt from others on this site far more in a year than I did in twenty five years in the Kingdom Hall….from the bible. Proved from the bible. Reasoned from the bible. Unshakably so from the bible. Simply because I did not argue without acceptance of a reply, but allowed myself to be taught and tested the mettle of reason. Jesus was right. His yoke is oh! So easy!

          The issue is Francis, that you know you are oft contrary to the dialogue here and the issues you raise are often abrasive, not personally, but unnecessarily so biblically. Designed to be controversial. My opinion. Not that others have not enhanced that feeling in me, and Not because your points are different and questioning, seeking out a balance, malleable in the face of reasoning from the scriptures, but because they are presented as fact and are often as uncomfortable to those that cherish truth, as little splinters of contrariness that need to be plucked out and are distracting. Why do some feel this? Because you stand your ground implacably and thus introduce into the mix, an alternative truth that does not bear the test and oft, it’s meaning hidden. That’s fine too if it’s biblical -not all truth is self evident but needs explanation – and is durable and tested. But is it? It’s not a question of thinking differently, we all have our personal inception of who Jehovah may be, but a question of what we are teaching as fact. And why. Who is it on the slippery slope? Me, you, all of us for sure. But do we choose to be?

          • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 12:53 pm

            Hi Burt:

            I think thinking should be entitled to think what she is comfortable with in regard to her understanding of the scriptures. We will all need to make adjustments to our thinking when the absolute truth is revealed in the Kingdom of God. My opinions on the scriptures Burt are just that, my opinion. But I don’t form opinions about God’s Word lightly so I have confidence in them until someone proves me wrong. I do express them with confidence. If I did otherwise I would surely be a fool. I try my best not to insult people purposefully and I don’t think that is productive at all. If Adam was in a position whereby choosing to do wrong on purpose would lose his life forever, doesn’t it seem reasonable that his Father (whom he is the firstborn Son in human form would have warned him, like he did with Cain. Jehovah’s love for Adam was and is still unfathomable for us. I think that Jehovah knew that Adam would be no match for either Satan or the new feelings of love and attachment he was experiencing with his new relationship with Eve. But Jehovah knew that he could also provide the fix for the whole situation as he also knew that he had Michael who had developed true Godly Love for righteousness and would provide not only the fix for a bad situation but the template for what love really is. Our love of God must come first, then our love for ourselves, and then the love of our fellow man or woman.

            I think this was all a part of Jehovah”s original plan right from the beginning. I may be wrong, but I also may be right. I am OK either way because in the long run I will learn the lesson correctly as I am truly concerned with what Jehovah’s way is. It is not dependent on what I think or anyone else thinks is true, but only what actually is true. That will be revealed to us during the Kingdom of God.

          • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 1:41 am

            What part of Hebrews 6 or 10 or both did Adam and Eve violate in order to sin against the spirit and not be entitled to a resurrection from Christ’s ransom of Adam? Those two chapters of the Bible are the only ones I know of that outline the definition of sinning against the holy spirit, which would not allow for repentance from sin?

            I hope we meet in the Kingdom, you are a very interesting man.


        • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 12:05 pm

          i think that you make good point. Terminology in which it was said that Adam and Eve was “perfect” can not be found in Bible. First book said that “everything was good” what was been done in creations days. So, what was God meaning when He was said “good” must not be the same as we (or WTJWorg explanation, to be more precisely) stated in interpretation on Bible text in Genesis book. God said good – humans said perfect.
          What scale for grading God using?? when top mark is “good” not perfect ??!! :)))

          • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 3:07 pm

            The bible notes that Jehovah made his creation ‘complete’. Thus perfection. Why would Jehovah who created all things, and the laws of perfection that govern them, not make them perfect. Perfect, good; both are terms that confirm that what is made, is made to the standard required by the maker. It is the maker that decides what is perfection, not the English lexicon. I suggest that both you and Francis read it.
            The fact that Adam would have lived forever had he not sinned, is the personification of perfection. The marks of perfection are still observable in our bodies and certainly in the creation, in the cycle of life. The brain, the heart, the lungs, DNA , blood, thought, reason, instinct. And so on. Not only that, but they still are perfect for sustaining life. Are you not alive? Not only that, but don’t confuse illness with the existence of life. They are separate entities. You cannot have an ill life, only an ill body. The body is not perfect because we made it that way, not Jehovah. There was no death before sin. Sin corrupts the body, not the life. To suggest that the creation of man and nature is not perfection because the word ‘perfect’ is not used to refer to such in the scripture, is just an arrogance too far, if not a perfection of Arrogance.

            • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 4:11 pm

              Hehe, Burt, do not be angry on me because of my too opened thoughts.
              It seems that “completeness”, “perfection” or so have limitations too. For example, dog are perfect as one of god’s creation. Chicken too. Or some tree. But tree can not walk. Chicken is not able to swim. Dog can not make movies. Human can if like make movies but not able to smell all odors like dog can.
              So who of them are perfect or complete if we make comparison??? Or why to make compare of them at all? What will be purpose to compare me with dog?
              All is perfect, because we personally have feeling because sometimes, in some periods of time while we are satisfied and happy and similar we feel “perfect”, but only inside some sort of boundaries. Perfection as ultimate thing have no boundaries, i suppose?! or perhaps have limitations?
              “God is perfect but can not lie – i am imperfect but can lie.” What is these?? Sophism??
              In these sort of examples everything have limits, so they all are, in some way of looking, limited in own perfection.
              But our using of this or that word/words will lead us nowhere. We all just making guess.

            • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 5:40 pm

              I am not angry with anyone, Srecko. The answer to your question remains the same. Function is not an indicator of perfection. Perfection is an issue of standards of the maker in that his creation meets the standard that he has set for it. It is not for the clay to tell the potter what shape they should be made in. It’s as simple as that. That is why it is arrogant for the clay to dictate to the potter, their standard of perfection as preferable to his. Francis is trying to put a limit on what is an infinite and undefined standard. It simply cannot be done. Again, as to standardisation, is not the life force in every thing that lives? Does it not function in all that lives? Every living thing is alive. Is that not perfection? If not, then perhaps you and Francis will tell us where you were when Jehovah made all these things and gave us life. The full script you will find in the latter chapters of Job should you wish to refresh your memory.

            • Max May 22, 2017 at 6:01 pm

              “Perfection is an issue of standards of the maker in that his creation meets the standard that he has set for it. It is not for the clay to tell the potter what shape they should be made in”
              Beautifully said Burt. Jehovah does not
              make imperfect creatures and it is very arrogant for creation to
              dictate the standards of perfection. That is exactly what Satan had
              done and continues to do to set up his own standards apart from the
              standards of his Creator the Potter- Clay Master.

            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 7:07 pm

              Ah. I see what you’re saying. Each according to their kind. In the case of Adam, I must cede the point that they were never said to be perfect. But… there are many implications that factor in for reasoning that they were adequately made to stand the test. Perfect or not. I see this more as a question of who had more blame in the downfall of man; Adam or the Devil. Part of this may also have much to do with kind hearted and sympathetic souls who can appreciate the mess Adam made. Heck, look what we’ve done since! But he was not like us. We have no idea what it is to be sinless/perfect. Which leads me back to the question I asked Bencharles about the penalties for disobedience or sin. We know there are consequences. But I am not so certain about particular individuals, human or spirit.

        • Revv_zone@gmail.com Please8834 May 23, 2017 at 10:20 pm

          Your mistaken.
          The scriptures reveal that Adam and Eve where created perfect. Perfect
          Without sin. Even Jehovah stated after the creation was finish that everything was good. The only limit was for them to be tested. All his creation that has his four cardinal qualities must be tested, and that is the final statement that must prove eternal , with Jehovah it must be loyalty , anything else is disobedience deserving of whatever judgment he deems necessary.

      • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 5:22 am

        Absolutely. As Gandalf said….’you shall not pass’. And neither will he.

    • Burt Reynolds May 22, 2017 at 5:17 am

      If Jehovah knew Adam would fail, then the sacrifice of Jesus would be without value. Jehovah certainly did not know that Christ would succeed because he allowed Satan to test him and that test was not accomplished until Jesus was about to die, seconds before he did. ‘It is accomplished’ meaning he had survived the test. At that time, Jesus would have undoubtably lived a shorter time than Adam had at the time of Adam’s test. Was Jesus naive?

      To say that Adam was not created perfect is strange indeed. When Jehovah created all things, he created them ‘complete’. Perfect. What you are referring to is ‘untried’ as to their (holistic) appreciation. That is why the tree was there.

      As for naivety, you apply the word incorrectly. It means lack of experience, wisdom or judgement. What, of these three elements, did Adam not have?

      Experience: clearly Adam was well versed in what death meant. He would have been left in no doubt by Jehovah what these consequences meant. If not, then the command not to eat of it would have held no value. Adam would also have seen death within the animal kingdom.

      Wisdom: the quality of having good judgement. Adam would, knowing the meaning of death, been able to discern exactly the consequences of his actions. He let his desires over-ride his judgement, as he excused himself. ‘The woman YOU gave me…’ That shows slick reasoning does it not? But Deception does not run pro-rata with our judgement does it, for if it did, none of us would be decieved. We all of us have a conscience. Wisdom requires insight. Are you to imply that Adam did not have insight in this matter? Do you not understand death because you have not experienced it, and fear it? Do not discount also, the inbuilt instincts of man, or the direct relationship of familial bonding between Adam and Jehovah as Thinking points out below. Do you think that Jehovah would not have explained all these things to Adam? You are fond of saying that ‘nowhere does it say in the bible.. ‘ but fail to consider the context and themes that give truth to fatherly concerns of Jehovah and of his son Jesus towards his creation. For instance, the bible says that Jesus wept, he healed, he had compassion, but it does not say exactly what he felt as we do not speak intimately of our grief because few could truely empathise and thus understand. Do not add or assume to the bible, yes, I agree, but likewise do not detract from what is clearly the primary theme of the bible, ergo, love. Of course Adam was not left without wisdom. Did Jehovah create an empty shell? Does a Wilderbeast drop from its mother’s womb and not know what to do to survive? As with the birds that fall to earth not go unnoticed, how much moreso then, would Jehovah provide wisdom for his newborn, and critically, how to learn from that wisdom. But wisdom is inbuilt and comes before learning, for surely if it did not, we would not be alive long enough to learn.

      Judgement: Adam lived in perfection, probably for hundreds of years before sinning, but we just don’t know how long. Certainly long enough to establish himself within the cycle of life. To fend for himself, to receive instruction from his father on a daily basis. His powers of judgement were so great, there is, there can be, no doubt that his judgement was so deep and insightful, that it gave the true and full meaning to his wilfulness in sinning upon which, the very judgement of mankind now rests. The lives of billions of people. Would Jehovah exercise such judgement on people if Adam did not know what he was doing? It beggars belief to think so. How else could Adam condemn himself without knowledge of what he was doing? It is ridiculous to suggest Adam’s action was thoughtless.

      Without wishing to be offhand; but your insight into the depth of meaning of the term naivety, is superficial along with your application of understanding in the scope of what is left unwritten plainly. The reason such peripherals are not detailed is perhaps, so that we can appreciate for ourselves within our senses, the wisdom of Jehovah all the more by reading the result of it and the justice of it. In other words, by feeling the contextual background within our own emotive and moral compass, we own our decision and develop our faith in a way which we can relate to. This is not speculation, but gems left for those who have eyes to see.

      As for Adam not being a challenge to Satan, it is wise to look at the issues of ‘not being a challenge to Satan’, as they really are. His supernatural powers have no effect on mankind, unless we allow them to. We are the issue. It is we that need to be decieved by Satan. He cannot force us, otherwise we remain innocent! No. We are drawn out by our own desires. We own what we do. We own our guilt. That is not to say that Satan does not have unfathomable insight, if not power to decieve. It is just that we cannot envisage that power, so of what use is that power? We can only be deceived on our own agreement. For example, Few of us know how an atom is split, or the working of an intercontinental missile, or less, it’s guidance system. Few of us understand the effects of blast, radiation poisoning, less still what radiation actually is and why it is so dangerous. No. But we can press a button and let that power into our lives. That choice is ours. And it is deceit that will bring us to do it.

      Remember also, that Satan was, with all his power, repelled three times by the man, Christ, with no more weaponry than a few words and a correct thinking….’man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance coming from Jehovah…..you shall not test the Lord your God, ….get behind me Satan…’ And what did Satan do? He did as he was told. And so your arguement about naivety, intelligence, power, holds no water.

      As to your statement of intent upon Jehovah, ‘In the day you eat of it’, as opposed to ‘if’ you eat from it, is a misapplication of meaning. The event is not constricted to certainty as you suggest, and for that matter, neither to a future event, but to a fact. Thus: if you eat that poison, you will die, conveys the same meaning as ‘the day you eat that poison you will die.’ It does not imply the certainty of an event, let alone a foregone, planned act, but that of an OUTCOME. The implication you are enforcing on Jehovah would only be borne out with any certainty, by the term ‘you shall’, ergo, ‘…you shall take of the tree and you will die’. There are a few other clauses you could use in English to substantiate a planned finality and outcome, and I have no doubt you could find them, but none of them can contradict the continuity and context of thought within the bible that prove the issues of choice and wilful disobedience on Adam’s part. And in any event, it was ‘the woman’ that was deceived, not Adam. The bible says so, and on that, your whole arguement fails. The final absolute to your challenge of complicity in this matter with Jehovah, is that Adam acted on choice. The bible is and remains, vindicated.

      • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 1:33 pm

        Why is the value of Jesus sacrifice dependent on what Jehovah knew and didn’t know? I also think that you are incorrect in your assumption that Jehovah did not know that Jesus/Michael would remain faithful. First off, Jehovah knows the finally from the beginning and he also had millenia to observe his angelic Son’s behavior and his development of pure love for doing the will of his Father. Technically, could Jesus have sinned, yes he could. But Jehovah absolutely knew that he would endure any test of his love for God and his love for righteousness, and lastly his love for LOVE.

        Being made “complete” to me is different from being made with 1000 years of experience rolled in. Jesus was made and then had 1000’s of years to observe his Father and to learn about love and how his Father was LOVE. Jesus is and was the first of Jehovah’s creation to come to this appreciation. That is explained fully in Hebrews 1. Jesus development of the quality of love to the point where he not only owns the quality of love, but that he actually is love is the meaning of Hebrews 1. When we develop the quality of love to the point that we are LOVE, then we too will be welcomed into the true ‘family of God” and we also will be given the name that is above all other names. This apparently took Jesus/Michael millenia to develop and will no doubt be no different for us, but that is God’s goal, that all his children become LOVE, just like him and his only begotten Son has.

        I have no doubt that Adam knew the consequences of his actions. Adam’s lack of experience though acted as a disadvantage for him though. Jesus/Michael knew from eons of experience that putting the love of God before the love of self or your fellow man, or in this case your fellow woman came second and third. I also believe that Adam knew that Jehovah’s love for him was so strong that somehow (beyond his understanding at the time) Jehovah would provide a fix. It was a profound mistake on Adam’s part, but not one that Jehovah could not “fix” if he so chose to do.

        I don’t think that Adam’s sin was an unforgivable sin. The Bible defines such a sin and many of the components necessary for such a sin were not in evidence in Adam’s regard. Read them over in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 and see if Adam and Eve satisfied all of the components necessary for such a sin. My estimation of the stituation is that they did not and could not at the time.

        “4 For as regards those who were once enlightened+ and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,* 6 but have fallen away,+ it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.” Hebrews 6

        Did Adam and Eve “taste the heavenly free gift and become partakers of holy spirit? Had they tasted the fine word of God and the powers of the coming system of things? No, and No!

        “26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,+ there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,+ 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.” Hebrews 10

        Had they “received the accurate knowledge of the truth? In just a few short years they had learned the accurate knowledge of truth? I doubt that very much. They did not qualify in sinning against the holy spirit according to the definition provided by the Bible. Plus, Eve was clearly deceived per God’s Word. Her sin was on purpose, but she clearly misunderstood the situation or God’s Word would not have said that she was deceived. She was the most Naive and lacking in real knowledge about love and righteousness.

        Sorry it took so long to explain this, but this is why I think the way I do and why I have confidence in this explanation. But my confidence does not make it true and I know that. But for now, that is how I view it. Do I think that everyone has to think this way and that their salvation is tied into such belief? No, I absolutely don’t. We will all learn the absolute truth at the feet of Jesus in the Kingdom.

        Also, I am not in a knowledge or wisdom contest with you Burt or anyone else. I am just a sincere student of God’s Word, just as you are. We can have difference of opinion without thinking less of each other. I respect your viewpoint very much even though it differs from mine. I respect everyonne’s viewpoint. Even though Thinking feels in her bones that I am putting forth teachings of demons, I even totally respect her viewpoint.


      • Huldah May 22, 2017 at 8:47 pm

        Excellent use of the scriptures Simple logic. Very nice.
        The length of this post shows how much you love and desire to defend the truth
        (Or how incredibly wordy you are?) But I really think it’s the former.

        • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 2:01 am

          It’s both I’m afraid Huldah. It’s a fault of mine and probably bores people into a state of stupor, especially when I’m talking rubbish, but I like to be thorough with the little bits of knowledge I have. I think the problem developed from arguing with attorneys at work and my only defense against their nit picking was to be equally verbose. So yes, the Germans’ would have no problem in ‘Ve Vill be making you talk’.

          • Jamie Mac May 23, 2017 at 3:45 pm

            Hi Burt, you keep going as you are. Your comments may be a little shorter now that Francis has been given the boot 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 2:48 am

              I think he was given every courtesy from Robert’s reservoir of patience! Perhaps he plumbed a deep patch! As for me, I’ll probably keep my ‘Drone of the Year’ award.

    • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 11:50 am

      Hi Francis! heehe, your thoughts is in line with what someone previous quoted from Bible, that all this is theatre :))

      • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 1:36 pm

        We learn more by experience than we learn by book reading or even lecture. I was a sportsman when I was younger and I played on some very successful teams, but I attest to this day that I learned more when we lost a game than when we won. It is not the end of the world whether you win or lose. It is what did you learn during the experience? I would say that Adam and Eve learned a very great lesson in their loss.

        • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 2:23 pm

          But they could not benefit from that lesson, could they? As I understand it, they will not return. Do you agree? The implications here are vast. It also applies to the angels, does it not? Bottom line, immortals are perfect, correct? At the time only Jehovah was immortal. Adam, Eve and the angels were not immortal. Is that also correct?
          But… we are told that humanity will come to perfection in the new world and be tested. We do not know what perfection is. None of us do. It may not be the same state Adam was in for us since Satan’s interference. I see where you are coming from with this and I am not certain of the situation with the angels who sinned.
          Jehovah allowed Adam to die for his sin of disobedience. Apparently being formerly sinless is the same as being perfect according the the WT. I am grappling with that one still.

          • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 2:32 pm

            Being perfect does not appear to be a prerequisite for the second death. Adam and Eve and the world before us were certainly not. Add those who perish at Armageddon to that list.

            • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 3:55 pm

              What is the second death though? Is it what the Watchtower teaches? How good is their track record? They get at least as much wrong as they get right, would you not agree?

              There is a discussion as to whether or not Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s people. I believe they are. Not because their teachings are perfect, by any means. No, they are God’s people because Jehovah saw a special faith in the man Charles Russell just as he earlier in history saw a special kind of faith in the man called Abraham. It had nothing to do with Charles Russell’s ability to understand God’s Word as history has shown. He also did not pick Abraham because he was “perfect”, he chose him because of his faith.

              But just as Abraham’s offspring failed to keep the faith of Abraham, the spiritual offspring of Russell have done the same thing. But, Jehovah loves them just the same because of his undying love for their forefathers Abraham and Russell. But he disciplines those that he loves and he is about to apply that discipline to the Watchtower. Those that truly love Jehovah will come out of the discipline better off than when they entered the discipline. Those that are imposter’s of that love will not fair so well in the short run.

            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 4:21 pm

              Thank you for your reply, Bencharles. Many of your views are very different from conventional thought among JWs and I also cannot fault you for them. I would, however ask you to cite scripture to substantiate what you believe as I use that as my standard. I would never attack anyone for a difference of opinion or speculation since even King does that occasionally. My curiosity in all matters lead me through many back alleys and ditches until I found the truth. Then it led me here. So I understand.
              So, you do not believe that we can cease to exist if we disobey? What about Satan and the fallen ones before the flood? Would you say there is a double standard applied here? Since the anointed judge them as well I’m wondering…what exactly do you believe the punishment for sin to be? And who gets what?

            • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 8:40 pm

              The punishment for sin is death. But where in the Bible does it say that that death is endless? I have never seen that said. The Bible does speak about a second death, but it is man’s explanation of the second death that says it means endless death. Show me where it says that the second death is death without end. You cannot. You can reason that that is what it means, but that is simply an interpretation of men. Some will tell you that Gehenna is eternal punishment, even though there are no actual places that say that. The first death is a conscious-less death. When Jesus spoke of death, in every case he likened it to sleep.

              The second death is a conscious death where those in it are disciplined by God until they develop the proper faith and repentance needed to be released. God does not stop loving sinners. But at the same time he cannot have un-repentant and faithless and loveless individuals in the Kingdom.

              In first Corinthians 13 it speaks of Love. This is not love from the point of view of imperfect man, but is from the viewpoint of either perfect man or of God. It says “4 Love+ is patient*+ and kind.+ Love is not jealous.+ It does not brag, does not get puffed up,+ 5 does not behave indecently,*+ does not look for its own interests,+ does not become provoked.+ It does not keep account of the injury.*+ 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness,+ but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things,+ believes all things,+ hopes all things,+ endures all things.+
              8 Love never fails.”.

              Since Jehovah and Jesus “are Love” they show this quality flawlessly like we all hope to someday. Under what circumstances would God’s love for us fail? Is there anything that we could do that would cause Jehovah or Jesus’ love to fail for us or them not be able to endure? Would there be any action on our part that would cause Jehovah or Jesus to “keep account of the injury” or sin?

              If that makes any sense to you then you may also be able to apply the same reasoning toward the angels as well. They are also God’s children and he loves them the same way that he loves mankind. Is there really anything based on the definition of love in 1 Cor. 13 that would cause Jehovah and Jesus to completely cut off there love for you or I or the angels? I don’t think there is based on this scripture.

              Unfortunately, for some reason we as humans accept an idea that puts limitations on the love of God. But the Bible also says “4 In your struggle against that sin, you have never yet resisted to the point of having your blood shed. 5 And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah,* nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah* loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges* everyone whom he receives as a son.”+
              7 You need to endure as part of your discipline.* God is treating you as sons.+ For what son is not disciplined by his father?+ 8 But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, our human fathers* used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live?+ 10 For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness.+ 11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful;* yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
              12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that hang down and the feeble knees,+ 13 and keep making straight paths for your feet,+ so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but, rather, may be healed. ” Hebrews 12: 4-13

              Discipline from Jehovan is not to punish but is to teach and to “heal”. God’s love for us, even the most wicked will “never fail”, but he will discipline us with love and concern until we learn Godly repentance, faith and true love, and we are healed.

              I prefer that definition of the second death. Do you think I will die forever for believing this way. If you do, I forgive you.

              “He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,+ so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him,+ 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things+ by making peace through the blood+ he shed on the torture stake,* whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.” Colossians 1:18b-20

              So, Jesus sacrifice (if you understand it correctly) was for both the repair of the things on the earth as well as the sins committed in the heavens. His death was to “reconcile ALL other things”.

              The Jews did a constant offering which was done “twice” a day, once in the morning and once in the evening and this was to point forward to the 2 sacrifices of Jesus. When he left heaven to come to earth, Philippians tells us in chapter 2 that “No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form+ and became human.*” vs. 7. He never took that life as an angel back because when he returned to heaven upon his resurrection ” (that was used to reconcile the things in the heavens) and was demonstrated by the evening or hidden sacrifice. The morning sacrifice of the constant offering is the one that all or most are familiar with and was to reconcile the things on earth.

              If this is not what that constant offering pointed forward to, why did they do it twice a day instead of just once? Jesus love for us is eternal and will never fail just like that of his Father. Neither of them will ever give up on any of their kids. Which one of your kids would you switch off for eternity for what they have done wrong? Is your love for your children even up to God’s standard’s of love? Remember, he doesn’t just express the quality of love “God is Love” 1 John 4: 16-19

              “16 And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us.+
              God is love,+ and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.+ 17 In this way love has been made perfect in us, so that we may have freeness of speech*+ in the day of judgment, because just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. 18 There is no fear in love,+ but perfect love casts* fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.+ 19 We love, because he first loved us.+


            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 9:15 pm

              Thanks for elaborating. I am appreciative of everyone’s thoughts on these matters and yours, although very different from the mainstream are interesting. I asked these questions openly seeking an honest and straightforward reply and I thank you for that. As to who lives and dies for this or that…I can’t judge. I’m JAFO trying to figure it out. I have often spoken to people who shared much the same view and they were from various beliefs. I’ve studied everything from the Bhagavad Gita to the Satanic bible and lots of junk in between so I noodle over unconventional ideas often. I accept what sounds fine and politely reject what doesn’t quite add up. No, I am in no position to accuse or condemn anyone. I got enough problems keeping myself out of trouble:)

            • Robert King May 22, 2017 at 9:24 pm

              Everlasting fire means everlasting death. It is really, really, simple. I am growing weary of your BS

            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 9:48 pm

              That’s pretty much how it reads. It seems to me much of this is coming down to semantics. It’s not completely spelled out for us because it requires more than just reading. Could be where wisdom, discernment and insight factor in for understanding. I must admit at times I can hold scripture up to a mirror, upside down and read between the lines and still haven’t got a clue. But I’m trying…Everyone so often I do find a nugget or two I overlooked.

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 12:59 am

              There was a time when you were just as sure about 1914. What happened to that sure fire understanding? Here today, gone tomorrow.

            • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 3:06 am

              What happened to it is that in the revealing of 1914, it showed a progressive, accurate analytical thought, substantiated by scripture, and is consistent in testing and proves, without doubt, the lie. Just as the scripture says to ‘keep checking’ you are in the truth. Your arguements are refined over and over again at each challenge but never reach a biblical conclusion because the truth is not in them. That is why you wander from one thought to another seeking approval. You are constantly contradicting what you have stated as truth, are confused, your arguements are unsubstantiated and misleading, bizarre even, and serve no useful purpose in study of the scripture to those like me of simple faith, whilst serving as an irritant to those with insightful knowledge. It appears from your arguements and substance that you have little interest in revealing the desires of Jehovah, but rather, your aim is to peddle your own thinking, and of which if anyone has half a mind to try to unravel it, then that is probably all they will need.

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 10:14 am

              “It appears from your arguements and substance that you have little interest in revealing the desires of Jehovah, but rather, your aim is to peddle your own thinking, and of which if anyone has half a mind to try to unravel it, then that is probably all they will need.”

              In debating those who have become wrapped up in their delusions based on omissions I find it efficacious to cede a point or two to avoid being dragged down a rabbit hole of endless argument. In other words, I may offer up a pawn to achieve checkmate. Perfection/sinless state was not the overarching issue here. That was a rabbit hole. It was death.

              On direct questioning he dropped the mother of all bombs, his belief that there is no eternal death/second death, based on biblical omission of the term. It goes against ALL reasoning to assume that we are eternal creatures at this point.

              That lie was predicated not on his understanding of the scripture, since he is very intelligent, but if you noticed…and I believe you did, he made the same mistake the WT made in a myopic view of minutia, or more correctly, omission, to form one of the most obtuse views I have seen. Yes, it can be done. Amazingly.

              Why? My questions were direct and polite. I got the sense this man has seen a great deal of suffering and looking at the verses he posted made me see he could not come to terms with death eternal. That was his most intimate and innermost thought on the matter.

              I came here because of King’s articles. I felt compelled to sign up and post because of Francis’ comments. In one day of discussion with him he laid bare his thoughts and I thanked him for that. His words revealed him. I accuse no one. The devil has plenty of ammo, I don’t need to give him more.

              I take no pleasure in seeing someone walk away immersed in error. It’s sad and in my 40 some odd years of knowing the truth the sting remains every time. I understand why King banned him after being exposed. Rightly so. But…I still do not see him as an enemy anymore than I do others stuck in their prison, pinioned by erroneous beliefs. I engaged him because his views stood out from the rest. Not because I wanted to prove a point. He did that. Unfortunately.

              I hope I have made myself clear. And Burt, no amount of argument on our parts would have sufficed. He ignored much of it. He had to show himself.

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 12:53 pm

              Yes, you are right Raven, and your method is right too. I won’t offer any arguement, other that what you saw was end stage arguement because of the three friends that we have lost to him and his follower already. I think that there is a time for your approach, but also a time for plain speech, as Jesus said when referring to clergy as vipers and from Satan their father, similar to which he received from someone else. I believe I, and perhaps one or two others had reached that stage. I was also concerned that some others did indeed allow themselves to be swayed, and though I am no preacher of any substance, I will defend the issue, having exhausted the more appealing, loving solution that you have in mind. I don’t know how long you have been reading Francis ‘ posts, but he gave as good as he got. Though evil for evil is not a course I endorse, I do not agree with endorsement, or ceding a point of truth, no matter how advantageous to the assumed hope of saving souls, when it is clear that their motive is not truth, but evil. It’s like saying that a little adultery, or a little blood is okay. It is appeasement. It is not that Francis did not have a welcome on this site from all of us and was included in discussion both reasonably and amicably. As you said, he chose his way and revealed his motive. I do feel justified in my statement, though admittedly harsh, but given the rapid degeneration of his arguement over the last month or two, I felt that having half a mind to investigate his point and that such was all he would need, was not unkind or suggesting his arguement was satanic, but it was nonetheless, as a direct a comment that he would understand.

              Neither do I believe that his teachings were a mistake, but were deliberately misleading and harmful. If he was as intelligent of the scriptures as you say, he must know what he was doing? I do not believe nurturing and retaining by choice, a deliberate falsity is ‘intelligent’ or shows intelligence. Quite the opposite. Yes, he had a knowledge of the bible, but as 2Timothy3 points out….proved false to its power. That is a choice. Satan is intelligent too. It is therefore not intelligence, but heart condition.

              I agree that he appeared to have had a tough time of things, and I too was saddened that he did not accept the truth but chose to believe a theology that suited him, to salve his grief. How much moreso would he have been helped, and helped himself, had he accepted the truth and come to terms with the resurrection? It sad when someone walks away in that respect, and for one to do so, is one too many, but he chose to bite the hand that fed him and got kicked out for it. It is worth your consideration that Francis’ arguement was not based on scripture, though he quoted it as such. For that reason, I admit I did see Francis as an ‘enemy’ because of what he was trying to do to those here on the site, some of whom are new to the truth. I have as many years of association as do you if knowing of the truth be the standard. I would not have signed up to this site to argue with Francis as you did. Far from it. I resented his attack on the truth and his intransigence to the word. I’m trying to get away from it and I don’t want it here as much as I would not want it at the Kingdom Hall. But unfortunately it’s everywhere.

              I disagree that there is a limit to arguement in this respect. There is often a limit to arguement between an equal rationale but though I thought about blocking Francis, and I did for a week or two, I felt that to stop reasoning or arguing, was not the way, out of respect for his soul and understanding. It is not that I do not have your sense of approach. It was for me though the reneging on the aspect of enduring love.

              It is difficult to determine your approach and mine as to preference because neither worked, and I had already been through the appeasement stage. I do not often start off a ‘discussion’ with sarcasm despite what you may think. I’m not that bad. Neither can I claim to have insight into his ‘myopic minutia’ simply because I could not understand it and in defending the truth, I cannot see how this supplies ammunition to Satan. Harsh or sarcastic words are hardly ammo, but appeasement is.

              Nevertheless, as you say, neither your arguement or mine was not going to make any difference. Therefore I am assuming that you don’t like my tone, but as I hope to have made clear, my discourse with Francis had been going on for some months, and he was not bad at cutting himself, as he did once too often to Robert. Not that I offer that as an excuse or justification. But if I have offended you with my rhetoric, then I’m sorry. I know full well I can be more kindly at times and I offer no excuse. Be assured I am working on it, because I would normally have said what I did a long long time ago. I think I did pretty well holding out as long as I did, but that makes it a rather backhanded apology, which its not meant to be.

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 2:16 pm

              No offense taken and we do have different approaches to this issue. I can dig it. I did not know anything about him besides a few days of his posts, which was enough to make me want to engage him. I assumed nothing about him or anyone here either. I do not know where the line of demarcation is between delusion and deliberate lies concerning certain individuals. I am not confident enough about making that determination of folks I had less than a day discourse with. So I won’t and did not go there. My approach was simple, direct questions which he answered. Nothing more. I did see some contentious arguing and that puzzled me. But thanks for explaining the reasons why. I avoided it and stuck to getting answers through an unassuming position. That’s all.

              I haunt various boards from time to time but do not function well in a vacuum of any sort. Let’s say I give everyone a listen and then either accept or reject it based upon my standard for truth; God’s written word. Cool? 🙂


            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 2:47 am

              Yes, I agree. It is and was a difficult situation because no one likes to argue or to be pointed. As Richard pointed out, this place is a sanctury to many of us and I certainly view it as such, along with Peremino to a degree, as the last remaining true vestibule of truth. Not because I believe in infallibility, but because of its outright honesty and of the people who ‘live’ here with the common cause of searching for truth, but more importantly, knowing that truth resides here. I hate dissension, the moreso when deliberate – and who of us would not defend the truth here with the tools that we have, be they coarse or refined in eloquence? And I for one tread on toes I am sure, I fact I think I have upset Daisy along the way, …..mea culpa! I am sorry I did not welcome you outright, but I saw your agreement with Frank, and to be frank, I thought he had an ally! Still, I extend my welcome to you now brother.

            • Daisy May 25, 2017 at 4:47 am

              I’ve been under the weather not sleeping the last couple of nights …the beautiful dawn chorus at 4am, a cacophony of sound emitting from feathers beaks and wings accompanying me into daylight each morning.
              Then, at 5.21 DA pinged to say how he loved everyone and describing a few problems. He’ll be back soon but no I’m not at all upset, you haven’t upset me, you’re not culpable…nobody has …no worries

            • The Raven May 25, 2017 at 8:18 am

              Haha! I hope if you ever see me do that again you will give me enough space to hand them the rope they need, so to speak. Thank you so much for your astute observations and staunch defense of righteousness. I’ve also read much of Perimino’s work before I came here.

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 2:38 pm

              Let me also add that a debate in which intellectual dishonesty is at play is very different from a discussion on spiritual matters. But I am certain you saw that. Hence, my approach if that makes it clearer. That was what I saw in the discourse. Also a good level of cognitive dissonance. ;/
              The finer points of the Word are lost on those who choose to intellectualize the matter, which is what he did. Points given and taken in that format are far different from those in scriptural reasoning which require insight, wisdom and discernment. He knew that and I could sense the frustration with folks who tried to argue a point in the wrong format. If that makes sense. But I am sorry you folks lost some people to him.
              That’s even sadder.
              Ah well. Glad to make everyone’s acquaintance, nevertheless.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 5:47 pm

              Which only proves to me that my original approach of pleading for mercy degenerating to torches and pitchforks was properly reasonable, however poorly executed. He was intentionally trying to hurt me (us). I both recognized this instantly and resisted it forcibly. And the fact that I see my ability to do just those two simple functions as spiritual PROGRESS is itself a sad commentary on my state of affairs.

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 6:39 pm

              Wow. Not knowing the full scope of this mess and not wishing to open Pandora’s box or old wounds, may I kindly offer encouragement here? Spiritual attacks of that magnitude should be fended off to the best of our abilities. Sometimes it can take eloquent and articulate forms and other times crude, brute force. We all rise to the occasion according to our gifts; knowledge, experience and faith.
              I would not be so hard on yourself as Burt explained the lengths to which folks here have gone to afford him every consideration only to be set upon.
              In my limited interaction I DID read the posts others made in response to him this past day, just so you know. Take heart, Richard. I certainly don’t view ANY of this from where I stand as a detriment to anyone.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 7:10 pm

              You have my permission to look at my back posts on Disqus, should you care to. In a nutshell, I personally arrived here literally in a spiritual existential crisis, stunned from the deconstruction of the false parousia and the implication of the WT apostasy paradox. I came here a few short month ago as an observer having LITERALLY had my ability to believe in God restored to me by Jehovah through the works of Robert King. Upon encountering that person via his commentary, it became necessary for me personally to appeal to him, NOT to stop thinking as he thinks or even to stop teaching what he teaches, but TO consider this audience and perhaps realize that THIS is not the appropriate forum for discussions of the nature he was intent on engaging in.

              Those who already know me understand that if I did not actively employ some measure of self depreciation, my personality would have me constantly at the head of the “Pompous Table”, which is also a running inside joke on this site

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 7:36 pm

              Thanks for explaining, man. I think I will just let the past day or two ride as far as my knowledge of folks here goes. I am new and don’t wish to form opinions based on anything but my interactions with all of you, not your past dealings with each other. I tell you some people bring out the best and the worst in us, right? 🙂
              I had no idea he was blocked by a bunch of folks. I don’t even know how to do that. I hope you don’t think less of me for targeting him but I could not let some things pass. I understand where you were inre the WTO and their prophecy spiel, I stopped going near 20 years ago and yes, I agree this site can be fertile ground for opportunists to exploit. I am touched by yours and Burt’s soul searching and putting yourselves in the line of fire in an effort to save someone only to wind up having to save your own. How unfortunate.
              Wish I had jumped in sooner but I am glad to be here now. King’s work appealed to me almost instantly. I knew what I was looking at and understood the ramifications of the debacle the WTO had made of prophecy.
              It’s a dark world but in it shines a bright light. Cheers Richard!

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 7:50 pm

              We’re cool. And welcome.

            • The Raven May 24, 2017 at 8:11 pm

              Thanks bro.

            • Joseph S. May 25, 2017 at 5:41 am

              Welcome welcome our dear handsome brother , pull up a chair (You pick the right place to roost) https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d3b8233fdd33f9d6e02c906b62d8565bca3f801b4b6f696df2ac5a2ca89ee1b6.jpg and enjoy the fellowship here at Jehovah’s virtual congregation of loving souls. Jehovah is training up a small army of truth seekers, and peeling the scales from our eyes and making the Bible pop with magnificent color and insight ! Here we saved you a spot next to our awesome Brother D.A. who is in need of our prayers at the moment.

            • The Raven May 25, 2017 at 8:20 am

              Glad to be here! Thank you!

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 2:22 am

              Are you sitting in my chair again Richard?

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 2:28 am

              Absolutely not! I brought my own even more pompous chair, shoved yours aside and sat in MY chair. In your place. :p

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:32 am

              Lol. That’s funny!

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 2:10 am

              I have a strong love for you and your struggle Richard! IT gives me encouagement for my own situation.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 3:26 am

              To be direct and save you the time of wondering, Francis is the sole US contact, the US Branch Overseer, if you will, of the globally recognized internet era JW splinter group Lords Witnesses – followers of UK mathematician turned prophet Gordon Ritchie. If you thought ever thought Russell was a mysticist, this fellow will astound you.

            • The Raven May 25, 2017 at 8:12 am

              AHA! I’ve debated these people before! They lost in all venues every time. I was joined by many others quite formidable in their abilities to take them on across several venues. They scour the interwebs looking for wandering souls and pull them alongside. But their teachings are in fact very bad. Technically correct in “some” points but seriously lacking in wisdom, understanding and they are NOT inspired by God. Very much of their belief is akin to the Zionist view.
              Basically, demonic.

            • Robert King May 23, 2017 at 10:42 am

              I haver had enough of you. Goodbye

            • Joseph S. May 23, 2017 at 4:27 pm

              Sister Thinking warned us of the dangers of this man ……

            • Thinking May 23, 2017 at 4:58 pm

              Only because I’ve known what he stands for ..for some time..my dear brother ….these ones come to forums etc to prey on Jehovah’s bruised and hurt sheep…xx

            • Daisy May 23, 2017 at 5:33 pm

              It takes a true spiritual physician to heal God’s sheep, not an over-intellectual Satan apologist academic.
              Let them come here. We have nothing to fear
              Appreciate the next time this happens and you’ve known what they stand for for some time you inform us a lot sooner instead of hiding in the bushes and appearing only when there’s trouble.

            • sally May 23, 2017 at 5:42 pm

              Sister Thinking told us what Francis stood for ages ago Daisy. I for one was glad she did. It meant that I could see right through him and take what he said with a pinch of salt.

            • Daisy May 23, 2017 at 6:54 pm

              Good for you…

            • sally May 24, 2017 at 2:51 pm

              Oh my goodness, such spite! where am I? It truly is treachurous being a student nowadays it seems. Still, I am glad your comment is a source of amusement for Burt and Beverley.

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 6:56 pm

              No Sally, I didn’t find Daisey’s post amusing. I always upvote Daisy’s posts! I just do it anyway. I really don’t think Daisy was saying anything personal, maybe she meant good that you think that as you are entitled to your opinion but I didn’t find amusement from that post at all. I saw it and upvoted it.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 8:07 pm

              Sally, I can say that Daisy is the embodiment of empathy. At the same time she is personally undergoing trial to a great degree and is somewhat minimalist in her commentary. May I implore you to please at least allow some water to pass under the bridge at this particular moment. Francis’ “spirit” makes us all a little beside ourselves, all the more so when we have other ACTUALLY important things on our mind, like how we can see DA through his current tribulations. I’m with Beverly. Many times for me, an upvote is more of an “I see you, but don’t have anything to add” than an expression of support for an idea.

            • Max May 24, 2017 at 8:43 pm

              I see you… and I support your idea:)I think she is very caring I do like her a lot. She is having some troubles of her own she is older and she loves Jehovah as she shows by her comments. I learnt something from her the other day “no to put intellectualism above the heart” She deserves for us to just let the waters pass under the bridge.By the way I really like the way you write Richard. It’s shows a good heart…

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:46 am

              I agree with you Max on what you say about Richard. I love the way he writes…it makes me think….and it shows Richard isn’t shallow, his emotions run deep and he has heart and he’s a brilliant father, he loves his girls and talks to them! If only Daniel Genser did what Richard and instead of running to find himself, he became proactive and went search for the real truth of God, he didn’t go hiding from Jehovah like Adam did he went looking for Jehovah and was met on the ‘front porch by Joseph holding rifle’, if I remember rightly how when he landed here he had a bit of a hostile reception and I loved how he wrote about it! Lol.

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 2:00 am

              Amused? Have I given you a wrong impression somehow? Sorry if I have.

            • Daisy May 25, 2017 at 4:17 am

              Don’t think about it. It’s a misunderstanding concerning Francis.
              Do you remember a while back when we use to Messenger each other quite regularly, me wondering if Francis was connected to Victor, I labelled him a Victorite. Remember. We had a laugh. Beverly gave me that thought.
              It was at the time when he was new here and Beverly was questioning him closely and he sarcastically called her t.he ever loving Beverly or some such expression. I’ll never forget your I “see right through you “post to him because by that time Joseph had given up on him and Richard was dealing with his own irritation trying to deal with him. DA and ShaSha were also on board our highly suspicious boat.
              Enter Thinking. The dialogue between her and Francis was chummy to begin with i remember and later she revealed she’d chewed the fat with him on another site, he saying they’d locked horns over a period of time. over their colliding views
              .I remember asking her how she knew for sure about him having his own site and then, only then she s spilled the beans by way of explanation as to his agenda, after all of us above had been flailing around knocked sick by confusion. Francis and his “demon inspired beliefs” as described by Thinking would have taken a hike sooner
              Hope this explains my “hiding in the bushes waiting for trouble “comment…meaning Thinking might have come to all of our rescue sooner than she did but Ive said that many times… Sally took exception to my expression for a reason known only to herself . Now it gets a bit like Kingdom Hall …
              I replied to her. You gave my reply thumbs up as did Beverly . And the spite and treacherous words will stay in the upper pure bright air forever lol

            • Thinking May 25, 2017 at 6:27 am

              No Daisy..Francis would not have taken a hike earlier….Francis would have stayed for as long as Robert allowed him….and this is what happened.
              I have nothing against Francis the man ….he’s actually quiet a nice man..who has suffered at the hand of the org…and went on to be stumbled.
              The thing I have cause for concern with ones like Francis..is that they then go on to take others away with their false beliefs…as Richard so poetically said…these ones go on to devour their fellow sheep…

              I really dont understand any of this visciousness to me…I am actually floored by it..bewildered..
              Considering our close contact …
              I know you have had a big fight on your hands concerning cancer ..but Daisy as you know very well..I am also fighting that same Cancer fight you had….so I cannot excuse this deplorable behaviour that you are exhibiting…because of this…
              What must new ones like Sally ..who are very vunerable think of this sort of conduct between sisters?
              Now then..I’m going to excuse myself from this site…for the sake of peace?
              I have absolutely no ill feeling towards you sis…and I have reached out to you by personal email..trying to regain some sort of peace and understanding over this ….I do not umdertamd why this attack even happened never alone your deliberate attempt to be so public over it..
              Nor will I answer any more awful posts about me from you Daisy….this is all such a shame …

            • Song of Hannah May 25, 2017 at 9:02 am

              I do have to stick up for Thinking here… it’s a bit much to insinuate that there was some sort of malice involved on her part by not revealing what she knew. She obviously waited to see if he might be having a change of heart, and thus wanting to change who he was associating with. It wasn’t until she was convinced he was spouting the same old rhetoric, that she sounded the alarm. But she did so right away. Condemning someone without a hearing is not love. Giving someone a chance to show they’ve changed, is what love is.

            • Daisy May 25, 2017 at 2:47 pm

              There was no insinuating , malice nor condemnation involved whatsoever.
              I stated facts.
              Im proud to learn of your gift at mind reading….all three of us…wrongly as it happens but it’s still quite something.
              Also I’m very aware of what love is. I have three stents in my heart to prove it, or am I coming over as milking it.

            • sally May 25, 2017 at 3:09 pm

              Oh my word…you are no flower Daisy are you. What do you think Jehovah thinks of your words, your actions, your malice? It is extremely disappointing that you have a little gang willing to minimise, excuse and overlook your behaviour, as that seems to egg you on, make you worse. I am shocked beyond belief. You have clearly manage to pull the wool over some peoples eyes. What they don’t understand is that it is all very well having meaningful indepth discussions about God’s word and posting long academic posts about it but it means NOTHING without love, caring and decent behaviour towards others. Nothing at all. If your freinds really cared about you they would stand up and tell you that you are wrong. Not let your victims (you are acrruing them fast now) be left swinging. There is more to you than meets the eye, you have an agenda and you are incredibly manipulative. Still this is the end times, and everything will be laid bare for all to see. The wheat and the weeds. I am so grateful to Jehovah for letting me find him, so grateful that when I doubted what I was being taught, what I was observing within the organisation that he got me here to this site, to read the real truth but so sad that my whole time studying has also been a time of seeing people who I expected to know better…much better behave so awfully.

            • Daisy May 25, 2017 at 4:55 am

              Not at all a source of amusement,
              B and B were understanding my meaning.
              Good for you believing what you believe but I believe differently and I’ve spelled it out earlier to Burt today.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 9:20 pm

              And I had to grapple with him for a few weeks before circumstances impelled/permitted her to give me the heads up. Feel free to look up my back comments to see the distress the situation caused for me personally.

            • Thinking May 23, 2017 at 9:43 pm

              I did sis..or tried to…right when I seen him here…right from the start…but nobody was listening….not until recently..
              I always stick up for my brothers and sisters…I’ve always done that when I see ones like him…why weren’t you listening and why didn’t you back me up when I tried…

              I also get branded for being heartless and to straight…too direct….so here now you brand me of hiding in the bushes??…and only coming out when there’s is trouble..?
              Why such a public lashing…when we have emailed each other for a very very long time…..we are friends Daisy…

              Francis has achieved a success…these types always leave a dirty mess where they have been….doubts…..ill feeling..Jehovah’s spirit can never survive where these ones roost…
              …yeah I probably will go off into to the bushes …to lick my wounds like an old dog…yet that will because of your comments Daisy…..but it won’t be because of Francis..or ones like Apolaclypse..or those ones…they don’t scare me…nor harm me…
              These men were former elders…and What I consider true apostates…I have never shied away…from standing firm with them…they have no excuse…for going off and worshipping their own golden calf…

              Daisy I also sent Robert the site that Francis belongs too….privately that is…and had a short but direct conversation with Robert about Francsis beliefs…some time ago…

              I did what I could…and tried to be as tactful as possible…knowing some here enjoyed his posts …and admired his intellect …
              With these types of men..one cannot go in like a bull at a gate …for how will others see what they truly are like..unless they see for them selves…and it takes time to dismantle such cleverly treacherous men..

              I understand and you are hurting for DA..as you have much compassion in you….
              Now allow me to go of into to the bushes and lick my wound that you have publicly inflicted on me…because that one does hurt..

            • sally May 24, 2017 at 3:00 pm

              Sister Thinking, please do not go licking your wounds for too long. I am sure there are many non posters here as well as regular ones that are greatly appreciative of your thoughts, knowledge and wisdom. You most certainly did warn us of what you knew. I for one am very grateful as I am more than aware that I am still too new at this to be certain that I wont get mislead. I am sure there are many more like me. For the most part I keep quiet, its too frightening around here to post much. You can easily get ripped up! but I stick around for Roberts articles and the subsequent postings to them which are almost nearly all brilliant reads and give lots of food for thought, insight and deep study. Its much better here than the study at the KH.

            • Thinking May 24, 2017 at 3:30 pm

              Thank you for your kind words and encouragement sis…you have done amazingly well considering you are so new and got the truth on the societies web page..and the TATT at the same time…and yet you can still see it is Jehovah’s House..
              I wish you were at my KH..as it is so lovely now….just like how it should be all over the world…but soon it will be like that..so don’t give up…and you really have done a good job..lol..

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 11:53 pm

              Don’t be away longer than you have to, please. The roos and wallabies don’t need you nearly as much as we do!

            • Brian May 25, 2017 at 12:36 am

              Hi Thinking, I don’t really care about what these people say and some could accuse me of being the same with the exception of trying to drag anyone to somewhere other than what is written, the scriptures are the best defence and any speculation on coming events from everybody is just that including Roberts understanding of how he thinks things will play out. I don’t believe all or anything “as though a letter from one of us” until I check the facts scripturally and even then depending on what it is being said until it is cross checked if possible.
              To be honest I haven’t read any warning about Francis on here but I also haven’t read every post on here either. Do live in OZ and if you do which state are you in if you don’t mind me asking?

            • Southern ShaSha May 23, 2017 at 11:44 pm

              Dear Daisy, I honestly do try to stay out of other people’s business. I truly believe at the time sis Thinking was shouting a warning, numerous occasions, you were going under intensive, serious treatment. You were absent if I recall on most of those occasions. I personally had numerous disagreements and run-ins with him and sis Thinking warned me to beware. Even relating him as a very dangerous man. I agree completely with her as to the damage these people are capable of inflicting on any/all of us. If they can’t muster a following then they resort to dividing and creating animosity between those who reject his crazy ideas. I can just picture him and his followers finding much delight in the chaos they have successfully created. I hope we can put it all behind us. Otherwise we give these people exactly what they want, a platform, even in their absence from this site. We are all here to worship our creator in a way to please him and His Son only, or at least trying our best to do that. We are brothers, sisters, believers and friends in truth, in constant search for truth, anything else is a waste of time. Awhile back a same scenario took place, same people different names and several were mislead and caught up in the trap. Hoping tomorrow is a new day and all this is yesterday’s old news.

            • Daisy May 23, 2017 at 6:05 pm

              What dangers dear you? Rhetorical question not deserving an answer as I’m tired and it shows…
              A few of us intuited adversity from con man, yourself included. Burt told him straight and Richard blocked him
              Something MUST be wrong with me as I can’t understand the flurry of alarm connected to the man when DA may be heading for the front wheels of a truck and MOST here are having some cognitive dissonance getting their heads and hearts around actually doing a good Christian deed. His plight and our requests to help all totally ignored by most.
              Reminds me of the Kingdom Hall. Gasbags talking the talk….not you, you know that.
              ..I’m feeling ashamed to be here.

            • Robert King May 23, 2017 at 6:36 pm

              I have known DA for quite a few years. He has emailed me a lot. He has been threatening to kill himself for as long as I have known him. Although you may think so, money is not going to fix what is broken with him.

            • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 6:49 pm

              I’m not being funny Brother King, he might be broken poor man and yes you do know him better than us and no amount of money will fix him in this system but it would make life a bit easier for him in a practical way i.e fix his computer, buy his own food instead of a food bank, treat himself, just not to have money worries for a little while, just something to tide him over and he’s not asking us for anything it’s us who want to gift him and it would’ve been great if it was all done privately but it looks like he’s declining the offer but Daisy is overly worried as she sees a lot of DA in her own son who is also broken and troubled so as a mother she being caring and protective. It was just meant to be a practical kindness to someone we care a lot about.

            • Robert King May 23, 2017 at 7:03 pm

              I think that would be splendid if you helped him. BTW, so you don’t imagine me to be some heartless ogre, I bought him a computer a few years ago.

            • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm

              Brother King, from things DA has written, I had a feeling you’ve been helping him behind the scenes and he’s also mentioned that you’re his mentor so I guessed from that you are involved in some way about his welfare, I knew you would be helping him but his post to Joseph was a real cry for help as I’ve never known DA to over share anything about himself and of course you know loads more about him but it would’ve been good to say to DA, you clearly need some practical help and there’s some of us who want to do that for you. Would’ve been better without any fanfare but because he wasn’t wanting to know then it just dragged on pleading with him to let us do it. It should’ve been very simple…account number, pay in any gifts, it’s done! Feel a bit sorry you’ve been dragged into something that should’ve been a simple transaction. I don’t have you down as being a heartless ogre as I’ve seen you put up with a lot and been very long suffering with certain situations.

            • Robert King May 23, 2017 at 8:02 pm

              I didn’t see his post to JS.

            • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 8:19 pm

              That’s what kick started it. Joseph suggested to DA to watch a film or vid because DA was feeling low so DA said he would but his computer was broken and he was dirt poor. DA a little while ago had a bit of a meltdown and I suspected he went to get food from a ‘food bank’, so I thought DA is really destitute but I didn’t really pick up on it as much as I did when he explained his dire situation saying how he might even end up homeless! Well, that did it for me, I just felt compelled to try and help him and reminded him how Richard Long had offered him practical help and I wanted to as well and I knew Daisy wanted to along with Joseph and John3:16 but he’s ignored our offer. I know your site is for spiritual matters and is not a ‘go fund me page’ but we now know DA and it’s the proper and right thing to do for him if he wants. He didn’t ask for any help from anyone, he had a conversation with Joseph and I picked up on his bad situation.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 11:42 pm

              As Beverly mentioned, DA has not asked for help, save our ear and some understanding. Some have reached out as those related in the faith and to date, DA either has not or can not bring himself to accept. I want to preserve his dignity, not degrade it further. And if I’m honest, my motivation may be somewhat selfish, as I just really want and need him to be here. In your opinion as one who knows him best, are we pressing too much, the right amount, or should we press further?

            • Daisy May 25, 2017 at 2:40 am

              DA sends his love to everyone. He’ll be in touch as soon as he can.
              So relieved…must catch up on sleep now!

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:36 am

              That’s fantastic to hear about DA Daisy! That’s made my day. DA, missing you mate!

            • Robert King May 25, 2017 at 8:52 am

              Word of the day: histrionics

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:59 am

              I will own that Brother King! I have been know to be a drama queen ask some of my workmates but I do know worse ones and I really try to keep it contained! Lol

            • Robert King May 25, 2017 at 10:19 am

              That’s not what I was implying

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 10:24 am

              Really! Sorry about my rambling post then Brother King. Now I’ll be forever known as the drama queen! Duh and lol. ?????

            • Max May 25, 2017 at 11:40 am


            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 10:37 am

              Is this a word of caution to us all?

            • Southern ShaSha May 25, 2017 at 9:53 am

              Thank you Daisy!
              Hope we hear from you soon D.A. You are missed!

            • Daisy d May 25, 2017 at 10:14 am

              He seemed upbeat I think.
              Asked me to tell Beverly she wasn’t annoying him!
              Wish I could say the same! Lol
              Sorry Beverly I forgot to tell you.
              He’ll explain when he gets home to us. Great surprise this morning eh…

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 10:20 am

              Thanks Daisy for passing that on. That’s was a great surprise. Love DA to absolute bits! I’ll always annoy you DA, but in a good way! Lol.

            • Daisy May 23, 2017 at 7:10 pm

              HOW DID I KNOW THAT. I have a son who threatens that constantly and I picked up the signs.
              Maybe money won’t FIX him but neither will IGNORING him like most HERE have…the lovers of themselves.

            • Robert King May 23, 2017 at 7:21 pm

              Like I said, I hope you can help him. Jehovah knows I have tried.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 6:03 pm

              I only know him through the heart, as he has expressed himself here. I guess I identify with parts of his story and see myself in his pain. I just wanted to make sure he was not lacking for necessities so that he could remain among us.

            • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 6:39 pm

              Yeah, Daisy, I remember when yourself, Burt, Richard Long and ShaSha and Joseph was onto Francis Bencharles and there’s nothing wrong with you apart from your bad, poorly arm and Francis Bencharles will go back to his site but DA will still be destitute. Gasbags and KH….I remember it well! Pfftt. Don’t let things get you down Daisy as its not good for your immune system and that’s why that arm of your’s is not healing quickly and properly.

            • Joseph S. May 23, 2017 at 6:40 pm

              It is rather Bizarre isn’t it……
              Sending you my love ?

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 4:29 am

              There is no need for you to feel ashamed to be here Daisy, though I understand why you say it. Your experience, and the moreso as it is ongoing, heightens your sensitivity and keenness to the situation for DA. You have also had an Annus Horiblis yourself. The fact is, as you must surely know, that the majority of people, no matter how sensitive they may be, do not know how to respond to mental illness or Dispair. Not because they don’t want to, but it is the most difficult thing to understand, as it is a different reality, like trying to understand the mind of God. We are just not on the same level of what appears to be the norm for others. Some respond to DA with scripture, not knowing that perhaps, that though the words are understood by DA, the proof of them, and thus the comfort, is foreign to him because he can not feel it. That does not lessen his belief, or faith, but it destroys his happiness in faith because it puts it out of reach, out of attainment, thus Meaningless in application in his life because every nerve is weeping in a foreign field of the mind, and Jehovah becomes a contradiction as he has oft pointed out.

              People have tried to help. Don’t Dispair of our inadequacies. Many have said for him to seek medical help and that they would gladly give, if he would only say how we could practically. Jesus fed with physical food, and with healing as need demanded and we would too if we had the means and the destination. Others just don’t know what to do or how to respond and feel awkward about discussing it openly when DA is in the room so to speak.

              If people have eyes to see, they know that Robert has given freely on more than a few occasions, as have others, but he keeps this as secret as possible. He also knows how others may see him, hence his being obliged to redeem himself. We should not put people in that situation. The fact is that all of us want to help DA and the only recourse to action is that if someone knows his location, they must offer their own address so that we can assist and they can send it on. That person will have to take the money to a bank to get foreign currency exchanged, or provide an account number where it can be paid. But it is only DA that can get the help he needs that will help him long term.

              As everyone is aware, faith without works is dead, so yes of course, part of Robert’s resolve on this site is to help practically, and if we all recall, he has asked us to help others whom he knew about before. A lot of us are bewildered about mental health, crumbs, we don’t even know how to comfort people in their bereavement. Let us therefore put away our inadequacies and bickering, and hope that somehow, someone will enable us to help DA as we can.

            • Daisy May 24, 2017 at 9:31 am

              I’m of the mind that we don’t have to understand mental illness.
              Neither do we have to know HOW to comfort people in bereavement.
              Having experience of both these issues, times over, plus daily, all I need to know is to be there for those in need.
              Just be there in love …then shut the hell up.
              Simple as that.
              Ssssssh…no brain necessary, only heart involvement…the sea t of motivation?
              That’s why I’m ashamed to be here.
              Too many heads caught up in posting comments, the intellect not
              provIng anything for me when love is missing
              Too many for me obviously.
              As for inadequacies, you must do what you like with yours but mine I will stare in the face and deal with as honestly as I possibly can.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 7:45 pm

              Daisy, hope you are feeling stronger. My “thing” with Frances, as you know, was borne of my own personal vulnerability and dependence upon this site for receiving clarity on what Robert has written on scriptural matters. I would still feed Frances if I saw him hungry and so I therefore ALL THE MORE desire to do what can be done for DA. Have I missed some announcement whereby his needs were addressed? If you know of some mechanism by which I can express my love for DA in a practical way, please make it known to me, as he apparently at this time does not or cannot choose to allow me to love him as I would like to. Obverse to this is that I can clearly see that he is a man of great depth, struggling to maintain his dignity, and were I similarly situated, I would have to be reminded that a full and equal half of hospitality is RECEIVING it. So I am ashamed to be not currently helping, but also powerless to do so to the extent of my knowing.


            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka May 23, 2017 at 11:25 pm

              Can you throw more light to me about this

            • Joseph S. May 24, 2017 at 5:24 am

              Thinking Francis Bencharles a month ago
              Im not judging you Francis…..I showed you great respect and read your site…many here have not…..thus I follow the scriptural advice given below ….Because I read your site and understand what your new beliefs are….
              Romans 16:17-18International Standard Version (ISV)
              Final Warning
              17 Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and sinful enticements that oppose the teaching you have learned. Stay away from them, 18 because such people are not serving the Messiah[a] our Lord, but their own desires. By their smooth talk and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the unsuspectin

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 11:47 pm

              I think misled sheep turned to devouring his own. A cannibal sheep?

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 10:08 am


            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 6:50 am

              Robert, I have to ask, no disrespect intended, and you are not any obligation to answer, as the matter is really none of my business: In the light of Francis’ assertion, was there ever a time when you were SURE about 1914 or the false parousia in general, or did you, as many others including myself admit, take it on faith borne from the gratitude of having the basic truth given to us along with it and not having at the moment a grasp of the scriptures that disprove it?.. I mean I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY WANTED TO BELIEVE to the point that I had to force myself NOT to even think about it in order to continue functioning. I convinced myself, with the WT’s help, that I was simply not spiritual enough, or lacking in faith or not you fill in the blank enough. Was your experience pre-anointing similar?

            • Robert King May 25, 2017 at 7:15 am

              I believed 1914 was correct. It wasn’t until around 2001 that I realized it wasn’t.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 7:34 am

              Then I now have it on good authority that I truly was the “dud” of a brother I have always suspected I am!

            • Robert King May 25, 2017 at 8:25 am

              The thing is, when you hear something repeated over and over and over again, stated as an indisputable fact by authorities who “know,” and virtually everyone believes it who is considered in-the-know, the mind becomes trained not to question what everyone considers beyond question. That is how the delusion works.

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:54 am

              They hijack the synapses in the Brain week in week out Brother King.

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 8:52 am

              Never! All of us are seeing what a brilliant Brother you are Richard. Do not put yourself down!

            • The Raven May 25, 2017 at 8:33 am

              That’s about the time I finally got fed up with being told to go along regardless and I also tossed the TV out the door after 9/11. I had to shut off a bunch of noise and ask for guidance since I felt like my anchor chain broke in near every aspect of my life.

            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 10:44 pm

              Your views pose another question. If death eternal is not the punishment then what is the incentive for evil doers to fly straight? If I understand you correctly only few suffer that fate after sinning against the spirit, right? Then all these jackasses we are burdened with in this life can follow us into the next assured that they can’t die? It appears you believe that because of God’s love He won’t send anyone down. But where does He send them? And how many do overs do they get? Didn’t he say ,” vengeance is mine. I will repay?’

            • Huldah May 22, 2017 at 11:10 pm

              Hi Raven
              Great point.
              It is neither merciful nor loving for Jehovah to let wicked abusive people live forever to torment the righteous. I don’t want more of the same old same old.

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 12:56 am

              Sorry I bothered ya’ll. See some of you in the Kingdom, the others apparently will be dead forever

            • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 3:12 am

              Take care of your own salvation Francis before you cast aspersions on that of others.

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 9:41 am

              I am not casting aspersions on anyone. It is the death forever teaching that does that.

            • Richard Long May 24, 2017 at 6:37 pm

              And is it by chance or divine providence that THE DAY I unblocked a person who’s words caused me such distress, they are banned from this site. I feel no joy over the matter, but do feel a sense of peace regarding my quest to regain balance, to begin to establish a proper basis trusting my own capacity for sound reasoning and humble judgement.

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:25 am

              Perhaps it was encouragement from above to assure you along the path you have chosen. You take the low seat and get raised up. As Robert pointed out the other day, the truth is very very easy if your heart is right. It must be greatly encouraging to know that you are on the right track about the truth that leads to eternal life.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 3:28 am

              er… How about I admit to being cautiously optimistic?

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 9:16 am

              That statement is correct. Some won’t make it. To infer that redemption and salvation are thrown to the demons and unrepentent sinners like free candy cheapens the gifts. It makes the struggle seem in vain if the threat of eternal dark and silence is not acted on. To assume that Christ and His bride will not judge but simply direct is also contradictory to scripture. Judgements carries with it execution, if need be. If ever there was an argument for an eternal hell as Christendom preaches where the unrepentant dead are kept alive and disciplined, that seems to be the definition of it. I don’t see any basis for that in scripture.

            • Southern ShaSha May 23, 2017 at 10:01 am

              You Francis have undermined the entire message in the Bible. In essence you are saying Satan told Eve truth and Jehovah lied. What did Satan tell her, “if you eat from the one and only tree He has forbidden, your eyes will be opened and you will be as God”. What did God tell her, “you will surely die”. So………….who do we believe, you are saying God reneged on His promise. Jehovah has standards and you will not benefit yourself or anyone else by being deceitful and challenging the words Jehovah has spoken. Some things you have said in the past by twisting the scriptures did confuse many, this leaves zero room for confusion and only proves your intent in being here. You can’t rewrite the scriptures to fairytales, you can not continue stumbling others without be penalized. Satan is only as powerful in your life as you allow, your message is harming others and I believe we are all accountable, Jehovah NEVER lies or reneges, that is the one thing in this world we can rely on.

            • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 11:27 pm

              I don’t want anyone to die. The more the merrier. But..He clearly stated that the wages sin pays is death. Most of us come back for another go at it under righteous rule. But there are exceptions and if I read it correctly those who were destroyed by Jehovah Himself are done. So are those who go down at Armageddon. Their smoke ascends forever. I really want to think that humanity has great value as do the angels. I really want to see as many as possible live forever. But the continuance of evil, even separated from us is not what Christ promised. Maybe you misunderstand the 1000 years of judgement where we are all guided (and yeah, we WILL make mistakes) to perfection with the idea that allows even the evil to survive without an end. But that would negate His promises, would it not? Scripture does not bear out that view. Even the demons await judgement, do they not?

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 9:40 am

              Jesus name means Jehovah is Salvation. He does not represent salvation, he is Salvation just as he is Love. In math there is an equation stating if A=B and B=C, then A=C. Let’s use that equation in this regard.
              A= God is Love, B= God is Salvation, C= Salvation is Love or Love is Salvation
              Since 1 Cor. 13 says that love never fails and love is equal to salvation the salvation never fails either.

            • Southern ShaSha May 23, 2017 at 11:05 am

              Francis, I hear your site calling you, please, please, go blow smoke elsewhere along with your equations. We are all to stupid to get it without your personal interpretation!!!! I’m so glad to know, per you, I can live a full life of evil and yet, per you, there will never be a price to pay. Thinking was to nice, you are on the wrong track, one directed by no other than Satan who is the greatest liar and deceiver on the planet. Just stop the madness!!!!!!

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka May 23, 2017 at 12:54 am

              I went and thought about your above comments in the night in my bed and this is my conclusion. So if man goes in second death will Jehovah send Christ once more to redeem them. Christ die for us only once. Show me where is your thinking in scriptures later I will believe what you say. If your interpretation is correct, then Heb:6:6 has no meaning at all. Have you read it? Here is the scripture: but have fallen away,
              it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail
              the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to
              public shame. Therefore it very strong to believe that Second death is eternal. Yes Robert King is right so is also The Raven

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 1:35 am

              Jesus sacrifice is the deliverance of repentant sinners from death. As is said in Hebrews he does not have to offer up himself over and over, but is once for all time. Those in the first death who have faith from their past life will be resurrected to life in the Kingdom. Those in the first death that did not have faith in their previous life will be resurrected, judged faithless and sent to Gehenna for disciplining and bringing to faith so that they can be resurrected to life on earth in the Kingdom. They are not sent again to the first death because the first death is a conscious-less death and you can’t be taught discipline and faith in a death without consciousness. Jehovah “disciplines” those he loves who are thus far without repentance, he does not kill them forever. Faith in Jesus ransom is the key. Time means absolutely nothing to Jehovah. He will discipline and teach un-repentant sinners until they are repentant in a Godly way and can be resurrected with confidence to the Kingdom on Earth.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka May 23, 2017 at 1:55 am

              Your answer makes me to think then what about Satan? or in that matter Adam and Eve? Satan is also an unrepentant sinner, so you mean to say that Jehovah will discipline and teach un-repentant Satan until he repent in a Godly way and can bring him back with confidence to the Kingdom on Earth. If what you say applies to un-repentant human sinners means, then it should also apply to Satan. Would you like to expect that? You seems to think in a different way that is out of harmony with the Bible. Resurrection for Satan?!!!??? Oh then there is no point for me to being righteous then I will go and do all sorts of bad things and ask Jehovah to resurrect me.
              Ah!! Ah!! Leave God my wife will throw me out.

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 8:10 am

              BINGO! You see where I was going with this. If it applies to one, it applies to all of creation. That, my friend is a serious no go in thinking! The very architect of our disastrous downfall is slated for his destruction. We are assured of it repeatedly throughout scripture.

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 8:36 am

              Yep. I don’t see the devil and the fallen angels making nice at all. The consequences are clear. This also says much:
              Luke 12
              4 Moreover, I say to you, my friends,+ do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more.+ 5 But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·henʹna.*+ Yes, I tell you, fear this One.+ 6

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 7:26 am

              Well then, free will goes out the window and so does the scriptural fact that the unrepentant are destroyed. These are doctrinal differences. I think you are sincere and do not want to see anyone perish from the comments you have made, but Francis… there does come a point where your opinion is based more on wishful thinking than on scriptural reasoning. Parsing the books makes me believe you are a student of sola scriptura but they have their limitations when it comes to sussing out the intent of the Author. It’s not the comma, sentence structure or even the analogous words used. It comes down to the overall narrative of the Author and I find it impossible to reconcile some of your views with it. But, I am respectful of your God given right to hold them. I appreciate your honesty in your replies and although I disagree, I wish you well. You are very intelligent and I pray you gain more insight and wisdom into these matters. I know I beg for that all the time. Again, thank you for all your replies.

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 9:34 am

              Thanks for your kind thoughts Raven!

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 2:02 pm

              For what it’s worth Francis, I think many fine people have seen what the WTO has done and have been so frustrated and exasperated with some of their bad deeds that they throw out the baby with the bath water. Yes, they are wrong about much but they are also correct about the things which matter most to all of us. Even you admit they are Jah’s people. You made several admissions and also some astonishing contradictory claims. We cannot allow ourselves to be led by our own interpretations where scripture is clear. We fall into the same trap they dove into. We can easily get caught up in legalese, which the pharisees excelled at but look where it got them. There is a very clear line between the Word of God and our ideas even in matters we do not fully understand yet. It’s ok to guess about certain things which may have bearing in our time or situation in an attempt to figure it out making sure it does not cross His word. You are right about this being high school and the new kingdom being university. In all things make sure. Hold fast to what is fine and hopefully one day we will have all our questions answered. I can see your concern in these matters but do not let your distrust of the WTO lead you too far from what is known to be truth. Rely on His word when all else and all others fail you., not on your own ideas of how you think things should be. We’ve had thousands of years of screw ups based on that thinking.

            • Brian May 23, 2017 at 4:18 am

              So Jehovah saw a special kind of faith in Russell that was engaging in occult beliefs to understand the scriptures, to set a date for Jesus return?
              Second death, although we don’t know what it is in one of the letters to the congregations in Revelation 2:11 advises us with this: “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: The one who conquers will by no means be harmed by the second death.” If there is an element of harm it is something we don’t need to know about or want! Being the second one should imagine it is the same as the first death with the exception that you don’t return from it, the living should see that as being harmful!

            • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 9:50 am

              What was Abraham’s situation before Jehovah made a pact with him? Was he perfect and did all his behaviors fit perfectly with Jehovah’s view on how life should be lived? Were all his thoughts about God correct? Absolutely not! But Jehovah saw something in Abraham that was lacking very much in others. Although he had wrong things in his life, Jehovah saw that his heart was pure and his faith in God was strong. Based on that and that Jehovah made an everlasting covenant with Abraham that the Jews benefited from for thousands of years. And Jehovah kept his promise all through the years through thick and thin until he had too much. The same is true with Russell and the Watchtower. They are about to be disciplined severely, followed by his love for all those in the Watchtower and elsewhere that take the discipline the way it is intended.

              Do some research on where Abraham originated, and the practices of his people. After you do, get back to me with what you have found. i suspect you will not do it.


            • Brian May 23, 2017 at 5:48 pm

              I know where Abraham came from so I don’t need your advise to “do some research” thanks all the same, how has Abraham got anything to do with Russell, did Abraham have the complete word of God to guide him in Ur as Russell was in possession of, are we to follow the misguided ramblings of men ??
              You are deluded to think Russell is anything more than just another man in “search” of I am not sure as we can’t read hearts and especially into the past even if we could, he is the person that created the very “spell” of delusion that JW’s are under to this very day as you are also apparently.

            • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 2:34 am

              The measure of judgement is through our choice. Even though we are imperfect we can still strive for faithfulness. If we were unable to do so, then that rather negates the whole issue.

            • The Raven May 23, 2017 at 8:25 am

              Free will, again. In its simplest terms.

          • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 3:44 pm

            Hi “The Raven”:

            I am sure that they did benefit from that lesson and I don’t share the opinion that they will not return. I believe that Jesus ransom was of Adam. We share in that ransom in that we are the offspring of Adam and we share in his sin by being his progeny. Since we shared in the sin through no fault of our own, we also share in the merit of the ransom by way of Adam being our human Father (although Jesus is our Eternal Father via the ransom). Jesus did not have to ransom all of us, he simply had to ransom Adam. It is soul for soul, not soul for 10 billion souls.

            I don’t think that Adam’s sin separated him from his Father’s love. Yes, Jehovah had to go through with the conditions that he set for Adam and Eve by his prohibition of their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, but I don’t think that that one act precludes them from either Jehovah’s love or his mercy. Yes, Jehovah disciplines those that he loves, but discipline does not have to mean eternal death. I think that eternal death is a man made idea just as much as everlasting fire is a man made idea. They are both in my opinion incomplete understandings of God’s Love, Justice, Wisdom, Power and Mercy.

            I could very well be wrong, but at this point in time i don’t think so. Do you have to believe like I do to be saved? Of course not. What we have to do to be saved is to have unbreakable faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. All the rest is window dressing. There are plenty of things that people on this board used to believe with all their hearts that they no longer believe, but their faith in Jesus ransom has not changed, and that is the most important.

        • Srecko Sostar May 22, 2017 at 2:58 pm

          yes, absolutely! 🙂

  7. Francis Bencharles May 21, 2017 at 11:13 pm

    Your last paragraph of Paul’s Statement is so telling. Paul recognized that it was Jehovah that arranged things so that we would be sold into slavery to sin and death because he saw that in the long run it was the best way to teach us the difference between right and wrong, sinfulness and righteousness. Eventually he also knew that we would gain such a glorious freedom. Robert, this is indeed your best work. I can clearly see the Holy Spirit all over it.

    • Huldah May 22, 2017 at 8:41 pm

      Hi Francis

      We have to realize.

      Jehovah didn’t plan for things to go this way.
      He simply wanted to share the universe with someone besides himself.
      He thus created everything progressively.
      He knew that free will is free choice.
      He knew the likelihood of problems and probably planned for the contingency ahead of time, but hoped that his creation would choose to trust him, especially since his love and humility were likely very evident in his dealings with them.

      He probably new that even if things didn’t go as he wished he could make the earth a perfect proving ground for the issue of universal sovereignty and in 7000 years or so set a precedent for noone to ever again be able to question his sovereignty forever.

      Any other earths or solar systems to be created will be bound to that justice and never have to suffer what we have.

      He didn’t plan it. He planned for it. Just like if you have lots of kids and grandkids you’re pretty much assured one will have some sort of misfortune sometime. You don’t dwell on it, or cause it, you just plan what you can for such a contingency and hope they get through it without too much damage. Sometimes you use it to teach them a lesson.

      • Francis Bencharles May 23, 2017 at 1:47 am

        Do you mean he was just winging it? This is actually a really weird response from you. Others of yours I have read, even if they were not to me seem much more well thought out. I understand what you are saying but we will find out for sure in the Kingdom. I hope to see you there.


  8. The Raven May 21, 2017 at 11:33 pm

    Fascinating topic. Bencharles, I asked the very same question decades ago concerning perfection and being sinless. Maybe perfection was their goal as well, until Satan thwarted it. I agree that He doesn’t tell us everything either. Maybe that’s a good thing. 🙂

  9. Brian May 22, 2017 at 6:44 am

    I am of the opinion (speculation here) that the whole physical creation and we humans starting with Adam were to “draw” Satan out and it did, it may seen to be contrite but it is his (Gods) “show” and we should be thinking ourselves very fortunate to have as individuals become a part of his physical creation, the ones that will ultimately prove the point amongst all of his creation (and especially the spirit realm were this is aimed) are very fortunate to get the “prize” to become not only a part of the spirit realm but actually be sons of God with life in themselves, it is no wonder it is described as a pearl.
    1 Cor 4:9 “For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men. 1 Peter 1:12
    “It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves,
    but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who
    declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into
    these very things, angels are desiring to peer.”

    • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 8:31 am

      1 Cor 4:9 “For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men. 1 Peter 1:12
      “It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves,
      but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who
      declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into
      these very things, angels are desiring to peer.”

      THAT! Thank you. I had forgotten about it.

    • Beverly kenyon May 22, 2017 at 9:55 am

      I used to wonder about the ‘pearl’ and now I get it! Brilliant!

      • L.H. May 23, 2017 at 2:47 am

        Beverly how are you?? Heard from the terroristic attack in Manchester.
        Hope you’re allright.

        • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 5:44 am

          Hiya LH, yeah, I’m okay thanks and Thank you for asking. I appreciate that. Can’t believe a suicide bomber got us! We got bombed by the IRA in the nineties and now these cranks! The MEN is the venue that the witnesses use for their convention…I spent a few years sat in that venue at the conventions. It’s a only about 6 minutes from where I live and I normally park my car near that venue when I go to town…was only there on Sunday gone. Soon my friends will be telling me about anything they’ve heard…word flies in this city as someone knows someone who knows someone! My friend works at one of the main city centre hospitals so no doubt she’ll be on the phone with news. My child was going to that concert but her friend didn’t want to go so it looks like she dodged the bullet there. Phew! Gonna be a bit wary about going into town now. Think they picked on us as we love our concerts here in Manchester and we love our music and we’re friendly so there’s always big crowds and the city centre itself is nicely laid out to walk around.

          • L.H. May 23, 2017 at 6:12 am

            I feel relieved. It lasted a few hours until you replied, so I starded to worrie exactly the things you discribe.
            “What if her daughter or other loved ones was at that concert” It lookes like your child escaped something horrible!
            And you only live 6 minutes away, can’t believe it. You’re right to be wary,and we all must be and pray to Jehovah for discernment.
            Take care sister!

            • Beverly kenyon May 23, 2017 at 7:26 am

              Awww. Sorry LH for worrying you but I saw it as breaking news at 10.30pm ladt night when I got home from work and then I just went to bed. At that stage they were saying a speaker had blown up at the concert so it was only this morning I found out it was a suicide bomber! Horrific stories are coming out now…my friend just told me about one and you really wouldn’t want to know LH…it’s vile! The foyer in the MEN is quite enclosed so I’m not surprised at the carnage. A man (customer) came into work and was asking if we knew where there was a park as he wanted to have a walk around as he had to get back to the Arena, he looked anxious so it looks like he was killing time until he picked up family/friends from the concert, very strange he wanted to have a walk on the park. I know a lot of people from outside Manchester come to our city for those concerts. Everything is very close and jammed in, in Manchester. Glad my girl didn’t go to that concert…didn’t even know she liked that pop singer as she went to the Arena to see Demi Lovato when she played in Manchester….don’t think she’ll be going to another concert now! But people forget and just carry on regardless! Thanks again LH for your thoughts.

            • Southern ShaSha May 23, 2017 at 10:11 pm

              Hi Beverly, thought the same thing for you. I had thought you had mentioned Manchester at different times. So glad you and your daughter are safe and sound! You were certainly nearby, very frightening situation.

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 5:41 am

              Hi ShaSha, yeah, me and my girl are okay but feel so very sorry for those children and young adults who were killed….some of stories coming out are heartbreaking. Us Mancs, we love Manchester so can’t believe we had a suicide bomber and he was from the ‘curry mile’ area, Fallowfield…it’s an area in Manchester minutes from the city centre that’s predominantly Asian and there’s a stretch of main road that’s crammed with Asian restaurants. Thought it would’ve been Cheetham Hill another Asian area not far from where I live. Manchester is like a fortress crawling with cops…makes a change as we never see that lot much. Thank you ShaSha for asking….that’s kind and decent of you.

            • Thinking May 24, 2017 at 8:58 am

              So glad you are okay Beverly and your family…I didn’t realise you were there.
              It’s all very hard to comprehend…stay safe sis…

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 11:55 am

              Thank You Sister thinking for asking after me and family. That very kind and thoughtful of you. Still reeling from took place here in Manchester….can’t believe it as many of us feel. Think we all have to try and stay safe as it would appear they’re everywhere, like paedophiles!

            • sally May 24, 2017 at 2:04 pm

              My goodness Beverley that was a bit to close to home 🙁 Glad your all ok and your girl didn’t go. I think the next few days the true horror will become apparent. I got home from work and read that 64 children got blown up on a bus in Syria. I just want the Kingdom to come now.

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 2:30 pm

              And they don’t even get a mention Sally. I just read 30 people migrants drowned mainly toddlers and it barely makes the news. The carnage never ends and you’re right, just want the Kingdom to come and it will. Yeah, her friend didn’t want to see that pop singer so she decided not to go but if it was Demi Lovato she would’ve been there no matter what. My friend Steve, who’s a witness, his nephew went but thankfully he was on the other side of the stadium. But that’s how it is in Manchester, someone knows someone who went to that concert. Destiny only really likes Demi Lovato as she’s an amazing singer with inspirational songs as she suffers from bipolar and abused drink and drugs something Destiny can relate to as she has a mental illness herself and has done those things so she dodged the bullet not going to that concert. But we can’t let these sort of things get to us. Thanks Sally for asking after me and my girl, that means a lot. I’ll tell her the ones I talk to on ewatchman has been asking after us…she knows all about Ewatchman both her and her best friend Serena. They like it when I tell them what’s happening on Ewatchman as they know it’s my interest. Thanks again Sally and I hope you and your grandson are both okay and safe!

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 2:42 am

              Here we were, Beverly, a few weeks ago speculating upon whether Burt and Daisy would be Incinerated or irradiated, and you have had the tribulation closer to you. I’m breathing easier knowing that you and your beloved girl are both clear of the debris!

            • Beverly kenyon May 25, 2017 at 5:58 am

              Yeah. Richard, tribulation was going on down the road! Still can’t believe that happened at the MEN! The IRA bombed Manchester in the late nineties but at least they gave warnings before they bombed and the only thing left from that bombing was a post box…the iconic red post box like the iconic red phone boxes we have here in England. Thank you Richard for asking after us…thank goodness her friend isn’t a fan of Arianne Grande! Some of the stories Richard are heartbreaking! Even parents died, and the victims were all very young but my heart breaks for all victims of this demonic violence. It’s like Sally mentioned yesterday, 64 Syrian children were blown up on a bus but barely a mention but it’s like Brother King has said in his tweet, the chickens are coming home to roost now for us in the West, our governments sowed bad things now their citizens are going to reap those bad things. Here in Manchester people are tying pink ribbons on windows and doors of their houses to show support for those who were caught up in the carnage on Monday night. Thanks again Richard for your concern towards us here in Manchester.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 6:17 am

              And all of the blood shed everywhere instigated by London intrigue and paid for with American tax dollars!

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:14 pm

              Britain spends over five billion pounds a year out of our taxes on what is called ‘Overseas Aid’, and blowing up various countries and murdering their citizens is included in this aid. We also have to fork out thirty billion a year in arming our military for the same ends. I’m sorry to say that you guys borrow from London to pay for your nukes and so on.☹️

            • Burt Reynolds May 25, 2017 at 3:04 pm

              I much prefer incineration Richard. Medium rare, with horse radish, followed by a good basting with vintage port with a mature Stilton with digestive biscuits.

            • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 3:08 pm

              Funny. But the term I should have used was vaporization. Hard to flavor vapor to one’s liking.

            • Jamie Mac May 24, 2017 at 3:34 pm

              Hi Sally , ‘I just want the Kingdom to come now’.

              Your not alone with those thoughts.

          • Brian May 24, 2017 at 5:58 am

            So you are a Geordie, well at least you’re not French!! :))))

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 6:02 am

              Geordie?! Lol. They’re from Newcastle! I’m a Mancunian from Manchester!

            • Brian May 24, 2017 at 7:22 am

              My apology’s Beverly, I always get the regions confused, I have worked with many pohms from all of the “isles” and quite a few from Stockport, to be honest I have never heard any of them mention Mancunian unless of course I had one too many tipples and missed it!! : )

            • Beverly kenyon May 24, 2017 at 8:43 am

              Don’t worry about it Brian, no need to apologise. Stockport is a part of Greater Manchester but they don’t see themselves as Mancs, a bit like them from Salford even though they’re round the corner from Manchester City Centre. Stockport is a bit posh, not super posh but a nice place with a lovely countryfied feel about it and clean, it’s nice with a nice shopping centre, it’s hilly with cute shops, feels like you’re in the country. If I said to Manc friends that I was called a Geordie, they would burst out laughing as have you heard that accent of their’s?! Lol. The only thing we have in common with Geordie’s is that us and them have hollow legs when it comes to drinking…they can booze, they get leathered! I ❤️ Manchester!

            • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 12:57 pm

              Heaven forbid!

    • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 2:12 am

      I’ve been thinking about this some. too. If we rewind time to before the creative period that yielded the earth and humanity, could we speculate that Jehovah was still faced with the possibility of free will being turned against himself in the spirit realm, Until the plans for a “lesser” form of intelligent life loving and honoring the Creator were introduced, perhaps there was no possession of the Father’s desirable enough to tempt His spirit son’s to disobedience. Kind of like how noone paid any extraordinary attention to the work of Tesla until he proposed (nearly) free electricity for everyone, then Edison had him broken?

      • Brian May 25, 2017 at 5:06 am

        Hi Richard, indeed, I think this whole “thing” is very much bigger than what we know of. Some people may or could get upset to think that that is all we were created for and at the same time forget that they are actually here commenting or making complaints about said situation whilst being a part of that very creation and not realising how fortunate they are to actually be a witness to this wonderful creation. I have though the same sort of thing in regards to how a test of the loyalty of a Spirit being would or could be carried out and what we have here seems to fit the bill exceptionally well….give the very high ranking spirit creature the authority to “look after” those that have been created in “their image” and see how they/he/whatever runs with it, it would appear this very one didn’t take too long to prove what motivates him, I don’t understand how they all think they could or would get away with it. If I were Satan I’d be crawling back to the boss to beg for forgiveness!!

        • Richard Long May 25, 2017 at 5:24 am

          Agree that it is beyond my understanding, too. Can we understand the thinking of Cain? I speculate that Satan was much like Cain in attitude, and probably warned he was at a crossroads as well. And we might get away with saying that it didn’t HAVE to happen the way it did, but it was likely to happen sooner or later and the sooner the better so we, the inhabitants of the universe can get it behind them once and for all time.

          That free will…. such a beautiful gift and at the same time such a delicate and dangerous property. I freely admit to being constantly afraid that I will mishandle mine.

          • Brian May 25, 2017 at 5:53 am

            You are not the only one that is concerned about “miss-handling” their free will Richard! : )

  10. Jamie Mac May 22, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    Hi Brothers and sisters, interesting discussion 🙂

    Here’s a thought on this subject: GEN 3 8-13

    ‘Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” 10 Finally he said: “I heard your voice in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.” 11 At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate.” 13 Jehovah God then said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” The woman replied: “The serpent deceived me, so I ate.”

    Jehovah asked Adam if he had eaten from the tree. This implies to me that Jehovah did not know what Adam and Eve had done. Surely Jehovah would not pretend to not know would he?

    At the same time Jehovah’s response and his solution to the problem seemed to be on the tip of his tongue and rehearsed.

    The more I think of this the more muddled my thinking becomes. 🙁

    • John 3:16 May 22, 2017 at 4:59 pm

      Oh, he knew alright. It’s just like a parent asking their child if they did something bad just to see what kind of excuse they might give, or if they’ll be honest. To Adam’s credit, he was honest and blamed his wife 🙂

      • The Raven May 22, 2017 at 5:03 pm


      • Jamie Mac May 22, 2017 at 5:10 pm

        The last sentence sounds about right :). Perhaps Jehovah only knew what they had done when Adam admitted being afraid and naked.

      • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 3:43 am

        Like it! Spoken like a man!

    • Francis Bencharles May 22, 2017 at 8:42 pm

      “Jimmy (chocolate chip stains on his face) did you eat cookies before Dinner?” His Mother asks him, well knowing the answer.

    • Burt Reynolds May 23, 2017 at 3:42 am

      As parents ourselves, do we not always have a ready answer for our miscreant children? Also, at present, we have to think through our own experience to give a wise answer. Jehovah, as the personification of wisdom, does not have to pause to come up with an answer, does he. The point, again as with our children, in asking ‘what have you done’ is designed either to provoke thought on behalf of the child, or, if the inflection is ‘what have you DONE!?’ could be a statement, NOT a question, of pure grief, anguish and hurt. That it was the latter is quite possible, given that Jehovah later regretted that he made man. Given that Jehovah is omnipresent, it goes without saying…..perhaps…..that he knew the instant that Eve took the fruit; more, the instant when Satan lied; even further, the instant Satan chose to dwell on his own glory and which could have been years in the development stage. ‘What have you done’ Is not necessarily a question. It can be posed as a statement of fact. It can be a provokation to illicit a response. It can be a cry of grief, it can be a cry of dispair, it can be a statement of anger. It can be an accusation. And that is only in English. What scope did the original, perfect language have?

      However, what is important now, is to keep our eyes in the coming of the bridegroom, lest we loose sight of it and are diverted from our course by Satan and his subtleties. All things, Jehovah promised us, will be revealed, and though the former things will not be brought to mind, the lesson will remain with us because how else will the coming judgement remain as a reference to Jehovah’s righteousness? We may assume therefore that we will at some point be sitting on a bed telling the children the story of Jehovah and Adam and Eve. In the interim, I would not bother about it!

      • Jamie Mac May 23, 2017 at 3:48 pm

        Hi Burt, I will take your advice and not worry about it to much. It wasn’t a very interesting comment anyway and no-one took it seriously judging by the replies 🙁

        • Burt Reynolds May 24, 2017 at 2:34 am

          I expect most of our friends here are stuck for time and have busy lives. I have more than enough time to ramble on….and on….and on! ?

  11. Vas vegan Rants May 23, 2017 at 3:38 am

    I think they were made perfect… being created by Jehovah’ then they couldn’t be anything less that perfect beings . Everything else he created is perfect .Now if perfection means sinless that’s another way of looking at it . When they sinned they started to die .death is a result or cause of imperfection .To say that Jehovah knew what decision they would make or that’s he knew that satan would turn evil or appose him would be assaying Jehovah made a mistake in creating him . I think we are overlooking what free will truly is and maybe even tho Jehovah knows all things then just maybe he doesn’t know what choice we will make until the very moment it is made . I don’t see any other reason why God would cause or allow this pain and suffering , this only leads to Jehovah making mistakes and we all know that is impossible . I believe that he is so loving that he allows himself or chooses to not see what choice we will make . If he knows what choices we make then this is not free will but simply pre determined robotic dictatorship . Free will is the freedom to choice it’s that simple and satan who was a very powerful and beautiful angel who was full of wisdom decided to appose Jehovah and the domino effect started . All Jehovah had to do was redirect us back to perfection therefore proving to all creation that he is all knowing but chooses at times in the case of free will not to be . This is love .

  12. Thinking May 23, 2017 at 3:10 pm

    Good,points in the post script…thanks

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