Is the holy spirit a force or a person?

//Is the holy spirit a force or a person?

Stumper Question for Jehovah’s Witnesses, #21

If the Holy Spirit is God’s impersonal active force, why does he directly speak and refer to himself as “I” and “me” in Acts 13:2?


 The question implies that the holy spirit is never spoken of as an impersonal, active force.  And that simply is not true. The vast majority of places where the word “spirit” is used it is portrayed as simply a force,  God’s power. The Hebrew word for spirit literally means wind. In speaking to the Jewish Pharisee, Nicodemus, about the phenomenon known as being born again, Jesus likened the action of the anointing spirit to the wind, saying: “The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”

Jesus used God’s spirit to expel the demons. In so doing he once referred to the spirit as God’s finger. If the holy spirit were an actual person why would Jesus refer to it as God’s finger? 

 Many places in Scripture the holy spirit is referred to as “God’s spirit” – the apostrophe “s” denoting ownership, meaning that the spirit belongs to God. For example John the Baptizer personally  witnessed God’s spirit coming down from heaven in the form of a dove.  Other references are made to God’s Spirit dwelling in man. 

So, a more honest and straightforward way to phrase the question would be something along the lines of, since the holy spirit is most often spoken of as an impersonal force that emanates from God, why does the Bible occasionally refer to it as a person?  And the answer, of course, is quite simple. Because the spirit belongs to God and he uses it to accomplish his work it is occasionally personified. This is not an unusual form of  grammatical expression. For instance, in the eighth chapter of the book of Proverbs God’s wisdom is personified, speaking from the perspective the first person God created. Paul personified death as an enemy and sin is said to rule as a king. These are examples of personification. 

Trinitarians  are required to believe that God is made up of three different persons, each of which is God, but the sum total of the triad equals a single God. The absurdity of this doctrine is on full display in the case of the central feature of the entire Bible and that is the anointing of Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ is God and the holy spirit is God, why would Jesus be anointed with holy spirit? Put another way, why would God anoint himself with himself? This is a stumper question for trinitarians for which they have no answer. Their religion requires that they embrace the most absurd and nonsensical stupidity as the very truth of God!

 Here is a link to a Watchtower article on the topic  What is the Holy Spirit?

First question considers the question of who/what is the holy spirit? 

2016-12-08T15:11:22+00:00 August 5th, 2015|Answers|117 Comments
  • Merton

    Are you going to answer all 70 odd questions Robert?

    • Hi Merton

      Yes, I think I will do one or two per day. It is good discipline to get into a daily writing routine, which I seem to have fallen out of. By the way, sorry I haven’t responded to your last email. Things just pile up on me.

  • chas logue

    Shall we start with “In the Beginning” “GOD” you would agree with me that God is OMNIPOTENT, ALLMIGHTY, ALLPOWERFUL. I am hoping that you agree that he is OMNISCIENT, sees all things, with all people, every where.
    He is OMNIPRESENT, he is every where. Solomon, says at that the heavens of Heavens cannot contain thee. God says to Jeremiah, Do I not fill the heavens and the earth. David Psalm 139 says where can I flee from your spirit where can I go from your presence. This is the most awesome in Isaiah, God declares he is the High and Lofty One who inhabits Eternity. How can he be Almighty, All seeing, and All present, but it is thru the Power of the Person of His Holy Spirit. The Almighty, the All seeing, and the All present Holy Spirit is the Person, and by the way who can be Grieved, this so laughable how can you grieve a force? Or even Quenched it , it can be Resisted, and as I have quoted lied to by to converts, the Holy Spirit can talk, thru King David, and separate unto me Barnabas and Saul for the work that I have called them to. And it even forbid Paul going to Asia. You claim that we avoid the issue of Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit, I certainly have no problem with that, simply because the Word tell us of his Filling. So I think that we need to look at the Holy Spirit in relation the Lord Jesus, after he was baptized he was filled with The Holy Spirit, Matthew and Luke, and in John says he was given the Spirit without measure, this is confirmed in Colossians, by his fullness. Filled with the Holy Spirit he was Almighty, he had Power over creation, calming the storms. he had Power over Satan, “get thee hence“, he had Power over Death, in that he raised the dead. He was Omniscient, All seeing, he knew the Nathaniel was without guile, he told the woman at the well she had five husbands, he told Peter that a fish had coin in its mouth, he knew what the Pharisee was thinking about the sinful woman at his house, he knew what Philip was going to say at the cost of feeding the five thousand, he knew that the lame man was at the pool for along time being 38 years, he also knew that Judas would betray him, he knew that Peter would deny him three times, he knew when he was about to die at Calvary that he had accomplished all things, said it is Finished, he did not commit him self to man for he “knew” what was in man. He was limited by his humanity to be Omnipresent, but after his resurrection in glorified body he was Omnipresent. I would like to tell you that you cannot tell me that the Holy Spirit is a force I have experienced him in my life for 45 years.NO FORCE NO WAY Period.

    • ewatchman

      All the apostles similarly had powers like Christ. They too were filled with the spirit. They healed the sick, expelled demons, raised the dead, etc.

      • chas logue

        Oops I think that you have overlooked one thing that separates the Lord jesus, from any humanity is his Omniscience,this attribute, puts him truly on a level that most certainly equal with the one who he came to reveal to a lost humanity. just in case you reply that he did not know the date of his return, but his Father only, so if you look at it in its context Matthew 24 Christ had not even finished, his mission, and had not been raised again, to Glory, if you read this chapter, you can see that it is filled with events that he foretold, which are still in the future 2000 years approx.

        • Merton

          Oops looks like you forgot to mention the Holy Spirit doesn’t know the day or hour either. What lies are you going to sprout to get out of that one too?

          • chas logue

            Hi Merton,
            I don’t what you are talking about the Holy spirit what lies are you going to sprout, I think you should look at the lies your G B sprout out right left and center, by the way the Holy Spirit Is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient, and where is nothing From Alpha Or Omega that he does not Know.

            • Merton

              Fine. I’ll believe Jesus when he says only the Father knows the day and hour. You can believe whatever. The Jews couldn’t understand Jesus and neither can you. Get your excuses ready for Judgement Day.

              It’s not my GB. Im not even a Jehovah’s Witness.

            • D34D 4L!3N

              if youre not one of Jehovah’s servents then why do you come here and what do you care about spiritual matters?

            • Merton

              I appreciate the work Robert has done. There aren’t many places unitarians can come to and learn more about God. I kindled a relationship with Yahweh thanks to the bible study from the Witnesses.

              When I said Jehovah’s Witnesses, I meant Jehovah’s Witnesses (trademark). Regarding your last point, I’d remind you there are others out there apart from JWs who care about spiritual matters.

            • D34D 4L!3N

              ok. i wanted you to clarify ™. cos its annoying. you either are a servent or not plud Jehovah is a person not a brand name.

            • chas logue

              This a lyric of my conversion,I am standing on the Precious Blood Of The Lamb Of God, what will your excuse be on judgement day, good works won’t be worth a button.

              The Perfect Redeemer

              When I knew that I was a sinner,
              Who would stand before God alone.
              I heard Christ is the perfect redeemer,
              And his blood for my sin did atone.

              So hopefully I listened to his calling,
              He said that my dept was all paid.
              The burden it rolled from my shoulder,
              As Christ was the decision I made.

              I have accepted the saviour,
              And no one is greater than he.
              For I was a hell deserving sinner,
              But it was JESUS who died on the tree.

              O friend could I tell you solemnly,
              You too need his blood for your stain.
              O please embrace this loving saviour,
              For he may not call to you again.

            • ewatchman

              Trinitarians have a lot in common with drunken sailors.

            • chas logue

              what about the unitarians that are staggering about with GB blinders on,

            • e.v.g

              Mr. chas logue the truth sometimes is not easy to understand, it is necessary to “THINK” sometimes, is not only getting feelings, you have your own expectations about Christ presence, but according with the bible it will be not easy as you can imagine it, because our own flesh it is an obstacle right now, and so will be in the future, so close our ears to the truth is not the best option.

            • chas logue

              Jesus said he who the Son sets free is free indeed, you shall know the Truth( biblical truth that is), and the Truth shall set you free, not to be bound by G B teachings of mere men. there is no obstacle in my life, when Jesus is my life.

            • Merton

              It’s a nice poem. I appreciate that.

              However you failed to address the point I brought up. If Jesus’ words are true, the Holy Spirit does not know the day and hour.

            • chas logue

              I am afraid that you did not read all that i have written did I not say that the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent, Perhaps you are only being SELECTIVE with what you reply to.

            • Merton

              Jesus’ words “only the Father knows the day and hour”

              Chas logue words ” The Father, Son and Holy Spirit know the day and hour”

              keep foot stamping.

            • chas logue

              Typical did I not say that, Jesus had not even been to Calvary, so how could he know the hour of his return, and was not until he was in a glorified body that he would know all things, John 14v6 i will come again, as for the Holy Spirit you really have not got a clue that as I have said The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotence , of GOD how do you think that God can “Be Everywhere, Know everything, and see Everything” but thru the power of His Holy Spirit.

            • Merton

              You do realise that when Jesus said only the Father knows, that that excludes the Holy Spirit from knowing too?

              You foot stamping reply ‘the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotence’ isn’t a sufficient response to my question.

            • chas logue

              I don’t think that any response would be sufficient for you,and your warped state of reasoning, I think that what would be more serious is to look that whether or not you have made peace with God,because life is short, but eternity is long

            • e.v.g

              Jehovah’s witnessess we believe this
              Colossians 1:15-He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
              (Jesus had a beginning)
              1 Timothy 1:17- Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
              (Jehovah always existed)
              John 3:17-This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
              It is necessary to know the truth, but why?
              Matthew 24:4-5-Look out that nobody misleads you, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many
              (We don’t want to be deceived by a liar)
              1 Corinthians 2:13-14-Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom,but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
              (Only God reveals the truth, but why?)
              2 Corinthians 4:4-among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
              Everyone has their own reasons to worship God, the Son of God responded in an excellent way, also we will succeed? that’s one of the main reasons that Jesus was on earth, but not only that, the love he feels for his father was its engine.
              And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all. (1Corinthians 13:3)
              The truth is something that should interest us deeply, so if you have your own truth go ahead and to fence well

            • e.v.g

              Beatiful words from Jesus:
              In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly show myself to him.”

            • D34D 4L!3N


            • chas logue

              Hi Merton, i am thinking that at this,time of the year while it is tainted with Popery which shadows the true meaning of the incarnation i am sending a wee lyric
              1 In loving-kindness Jesus came
              My soul in mercy to reclaim,
              And from the depths of sin and shame
              Through grace He lifted me.
              He called me long before I heard,
              Before my sinful heart was stirred,
              But when I took Him at His word,
              Forgiv’n, He lifted me.
              His brow was pierced with many a thorn,
              His hands by cruel nails were torn,
              When from my guilt and grief, forlorn,
              In love He lifted me.

              From sinking sand He lifted me,
              With tender hand He lifted me,
              From shades of night to plains of light,
              Oh, praise His name, He lifted me!
              All the best for 2017

        • D34D 4L!3N

          pifft, Jesus was dead for three days; no Omniscience there cause he was dead. Philippians 2:7 Jesus as a man was on the level of man cause thats what he was, a man. ferthermore Jesus is an exact representation of Jehovah, not his equal. Jehovah was never created by anyone so he is unique and could never have an equal in that respect.

          • chas logue

            D34D to quote you “Jesus was already dead”, this a revelation as some of your pals, to quote again “Jesus pretended to die” so lets see what the Word says, Luke 23 v 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Jesus had a body and was human so he died bodily, but ” into thy hands i commend my spirit, for course when you don’t believe man’s body( soma) soul ( psyche) and spirit(pneuma) this might be too deep for your G B teachings

            • D34D 4L!3N

              you didnt quote me.

              Jesus did give up his spirit to his father otherwise he would have still been alive.

              i dont know what pals your talking about but if anyone says Jesus pretended to die then they are more then likely being sarcastic knowing that Jesus actually died because he is not alive as his own dad in heaven but his own self created by his father before him.

              i dont know the GB much but i doubt your guess is as good as mine

            • chas logue

              “dad in heaven”, could i ask you a question, are you a jw, because if you are, then to refer to him as “dad in heaven” is totally irreverent.

            • D34D 4L!3N

              you are my witnesses, is the utterance of _______

              A) the GB
              B) the Watchtower
              C) the LORD
              D) Jehovah

            • chas logue

              you are my witnesses is the utterance of the watchtower, because there is little of what you say has any reference to the teaching of Jehovah, and by the way the Chapter in Isaiah 43 is really a prophesy to the nation of Israel that they would be His Witness.

            • D34D 4L!3N

              no, not the watchtower. wrong answer. and not by your opinion either. yes, the nation of Israel and from your comment i doubt you have the right idea what that means. you seem to reply just for the sake of wanting to argue. this site is for those who wish to learn something not to debate. if youre not coming to this site to understand the truth then i suggest you stop commenting otherwise i will be asking that you be blocked from participating here

            • chas logue

              D34D 4L!3N,
              I think that it is really offensive, with you saying that I am replying just to argue, that is the last thing on my mind, you obviously do not know the difference between debating and challenging, when I accessed the watchman’s post I was grieved in my heart to see the teachings that you were posting about the Person of the Lord Jesus, How would you if react if some one that you loved, a wife, a child, or a member of your family, was insulted, mocked, and scoffed the same way that the Lord Jesus is.
              Do think that I should turn a blind and say nothing, I will with every fibre of my heart uphold the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, against todays departure from the Truth, Atheism, Islam, Mormonism, Jws, and liberalisms, Sceptics, Modernists.
              I cannot find anything in your teachings that give any credit to His Person, even if you were to say oh yes I believe that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God, but have to slip it in that he is the created son. incidentally how do you create Eternal Life, John at the beginning of 1st epistle tell us 1 John Iv 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that the ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father, and was MANIFESTED unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. The lord Jesus quotes 8 times, in the gospel of John, that he can give eternal life to all that believe, that some promise coming from a created being. I truly believe that if the Lord Jesus were to come to your K Halls, he would end up on the door step.
              From the start I have quoted nothing but scriptures from the ever, Trustworthy K J V which has been used by many souls that have staked their lives on it, for 400 years.
              I could safely say that all that I have posted, has been replied to with mockery, ridicule, and insults to the Person of the Lord Jesus, I am concerned that I a may not be a good idea to continue with postings as the replies are given are not bring any glory to the Lord Jesus.

            • Merton

              Created beings can forgive sins.
              Created beings can do miracles.
              Created beings can be called Lord.
              Created beings can be Sons of God.
              Created beings can be called god/God without actually being that one identity who created everything.

              I believe you are sincere, but you are not open minded and truth seeking. You want to promote your doctrine above all else without any regard for the scriptures and questions I and others post. Any time you get a question you don’t like, you start foot stamping and screaming that people can’t just get it instead of answering the problems posted.

              I’m going to assume you are a Christian. Did you know Christian literally means ‘Christ like’ ? Are you being ‘Christ like’ if you worship a different God than Christ did? Go and see who the God is that Jesus worships. He only ever worships the Father. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Unitarians alike, all try to be ‘Christ like’ and worship the same God that Jesus worshiped and still worships. Nothing is more important according to Christ himself, Mark 12:28-30.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Chas logue you said, ” I cannot find anything in your teachings that give any credit to His Person, even if you were to say oh yes I believe that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God ,
              { but have to slip it in that he is the created son. }

              Please take note that the bible clearly states that Jesus is the firstborn.

              He is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation;
              and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the “firstborn” from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him,
              Colossians 1:18.19
              So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. John 1:14

              Now if Jesus is the firstborn, surely then GOD must have created Jesus first.

              P.S. Look up the references and verify It for your SELF, this way you can’t accuse us of slipping It in as you say.

            • Bklyn Kevin
            • Bklyn Kevin
            • D34D 4L!3N

              if you feel offended by coming here then stop. youre free to go to other non trinitarian christian websites and support Satan’s lie about Jesus being his own dad there. we dont need your challenges here. you have no insight to share with anyone here. if you are honestly looking for the truth then Jehovah will see that in your heart and the truth will be revealed. you cant find the answer here because you dont want to know it by not questioning what you only wish to promote here. just like Jehovah’s witnesses you are going to have a rude awakening cause that is what its going to take to get it through to you. if this site is not helping you then move on. Jehovah did not make a second body for himself to be simultaneously just to prove loyal to himself by not dying. Jehovah had nothing to prove to himself. stop promoting Satan’s lie here.

            • chas logue

              Hi D34D,

              The reason I accessed the watchmans post, was when I saw the 35 Answers & Beliefs and practically all have vile attacks on the Person of the Lord Jesus, being grieved, I was wanting to challenge you with the Truth of the Word of God. But what I was confronted with was escalated attacks, of misquoted texts, reinterpreted scriptures to add insults and mockery, you are obviously claiming that we are promoting a lie from Satan. Are your teachings above reproach?, I don’t think so, one of the teaching in particular is that of forbidding transfusions your vile, teachings have robbed families of a fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, and caused unbearable grief to many of your poor brain washed members.

              ACTS 15 v19 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, 21 v 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent them our decision in writing that they should keep away from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood, from what is strangled, In these verses “ “from blood” is connected with strangulation of animals which do not have their blood shed from them, this ties up with the verses in Leviticus 15v 10 ‘If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have given it on the altar for you to make atonement for yourselves, because it is the blood that makes atonement by means of the life* in it. 12 That is why I have said to the Israelites: “None of you should eat blood, and no foreigner who is residing in your midst should eat blood.”

              To give someone life the animals gave their life, and for us to have LIFE the Lord Jesus gave HIS LIFE, not that it will mean anything to you, who reject all to do with The True Son Of Jehovah God

              Verse 11 FOR THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD, so what else does the life also depend on,

              NO 1 FOOD if someone is deprived of food they will starve to DEATH, NO 2 the life depends on being able to BREATHE, so if you stop you from breathing they will be suffocated to DEATH,

              FINALLY if someone is prevented from receiving BLOOD to give them life, then that will, result in DEATH. There is also an exterior element that will kill, and that is exposure, to heat & cold. Surely we would have enough compassion, if we see someone starving to Death, we would give them something to eat, and if we saw someone Suffocating, we would surely see that they could breathe again, so do you not think that if someone needed Blood to give them Life, that you would, surely not withhold it from anyone. There are figures that say as many as 200,000 have lost their lives, when they could have lived if they had received life saving Blood. I will not go near such a site as yours again as I was bombarded with insults, and lies about the Person of the Lord Jesus.

              1 Corinthians 16 v 22 If any man LOVE NOT the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

              Finally with that mug shot that post as your self, you could well be doing with the number 666


            • Merton

              If you can’t handle questions regarding your faith, that is a red flag right there. I mean, imagine if instead of me who has a few years of bible study under his belt, it was someone who had never studied the bible who asked you those questions. Would you scream and foot stamp then?

              Regarding the blood issue, we want life in the new system, not this current one. So prolonging life in this system at the potential cost of life in the new system just isn’t worth it. Receiving others’ blood certainty wasn’t in God’s original plan for humans. Besides, these blood transfusions tend to just be short term fixes and can potentially lead to future illnesses or complications.

              We love Jesus. He is our King, our leader, the person we look to, we follow, the inspiration, the perfect example. However, he is not our God. Our God is the same as Jesus’ God. Nobody loves the Father more than Jesus, and Jesus must be furious at all the idolatry and false worship of the trinity instead of the whole worship going solely to the Father. Imagine sitting at the Father’s right hand and seeing this happen on the earth and having to be restrained (obviously Jesus doesn’t need restraining etc but it paints a good picture! He’s just itching to set this right!).

            • D34D 4L!3N

              plus there is no greater chance for life accepting blood then not taking it but accepting it WILL in fact cause complications IF the person survives surgery

              im glad youre responding cause im not really paying much attention to that reply

            • e.v.g

              Keep on teaching these things and giving these exhortations. If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about wor These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain. (1 Timothy 6)

            • Song of Hannah

              This is why I early on Pioneering I vowed never to argue these points with people. Because firstly, you can tell from their initial stance, that it is simply impossible to enlighten them. And secondly, it rarely ends well.

              Not too long ago, I met a man in the ministry who wanted to do battle about the trinity. I asked him, “Why are you asking me these questions? Is it because you are not sure wether you should believe in the trinity?” He replied, “Oh, you’ll never convince me that the trinity isn’t true!”

              I told him, “Well then, I totally respect your right to believe it, so I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.”
              “But isn’t that why are you at my door?”
              “Oh no, not at all. We are looking for people who are sighing and groaning, who are dissatisfied and looking for something better. But if you are absolutely convince you’ve found it, I would never want to disrespect you by trying to convince you otherwise.”
              “But then one of us is going to hell!”
              “Well, no, not really.”
              He threw up his hands in frustration and slammed the door. But I felt good, because I had honored him.

            • ewatchman

              That is great Hannah, you handled that beautifully.

              Years ago a brother that originally studied with me went to a door and engaged a man in conversation. The householder refused to accept any WT literature, but wanted to preach to the brother and wanted him to take his church literature. So, the brother responded: ‘I would be happy to take your literature if you came to my door.’ The householder says: ‘Great. Just give me your address.’ The brother responded: ‘No. I found you. You’ll have to find me.’ End of convo.

            • it

            • Merton

              You are all right. I should have realised early on that he was not a listener, someone seeking answers and all he had was an agenda. Once I saw the manner of his first couple of responses I should have stopped there.

            • e.v.g

              I think we are trying to help in some manner, although Jesus said too:
              “Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open.

            • chas logue

              Hi Merton,

              By the way D34D, gave me an ultimatum, and I am determined to not cast my pearls, any more before swine, this will be my last post.
              Lets deal with your first statement, I have no questions about MY faith whatsoever, when I made peace with God though, accepting the Lord Jesus as My Saviour, trusting in His atoning sacrifice, for my sinful life, its only His blood is my merit. I have not doubted in whom my faith is, a week later I got the assurance, of salvation, 1 John 5 v 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this LIFE is in his SON.
              12 he that hath the SON hath LIFE; and he that hath NOT the Son of God hath NOT life.
              13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Here is Promise that Paul gave to Timothy, and of course can be claimed by all believers 2 Tim, 1 v11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to KEEP THAT(MY SOUL) which I have committed unto him against that day.
              Ephesians 1v3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in HEAVENLY places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us ACCEPTED in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; v 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, Ch 2 v 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together WITH Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in HEAVENLY places in Christ Jesus: Actually I don’t know why I am quoting these wonderful verses of promises for believers, because what will they mean you or your faith system?, I could quote 1000s more verses, and reaffirm my where my trust is. what about this red flag lets say I agree, but do you know something, its red because it is stained, sadly with the blood of the Lamb that loved me and died for me.
              Regarding the blood issue you talk about systems I can’t make head or tail of it, on earth, mankind is corruptible flesh and blood beings, and it will have no meaning, after life, The resurrected believers will have glorified bodies, fitted for eternity. It is only the blood of the Lord Jesus, has any merit. The issue that I was making, was that to deny, any one blood, as you are taught, it is denying life, Paul tells us that God Made mankind from one Blood, so it is a poor excuse to deprive anyone of their natural life.

              You say “We love Jesus” Matthew 22v 46 Master (Jesus), which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God( Jehovah) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. what let me put this to you, this way, if the Lord Jesus tells who we have to love,Jehovah, and you say that “you love Jesus” who by your teachings is a creature, then is not this IDOLATRY. Next you say “Jesus must be furious at all the idolatry and false worship of the trinity” what a statement. I don’t apologise, but I am going quote again verses that totally contradict what you have been taught. John tell us in 14v3 I will come again and receive you onto my self that were I am you may be also, Colossians 3 v 3&4 for you are dead, and your is hid with Christ in God, When Christ ,who is our life, shall appear the we( Believers) also appear with him in glory. Hebrews 4 v14 Seeing then that we(Believers) have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Ch 9 v 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us( Believers ): 1 John 2 v 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: CH 3 v 1&2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
              2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE shall appear, WE shall be like HIM; for we shall see HIM as he is.
              Revelation CH 5 v8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the LAMB, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou west slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by thy BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
              conclusion, 1000 years BC, King David prophesied in Psalm 110 v 1 The Lord said unto my Lord( Jesus), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. one day the Lord Jesus will be Revealed from heaven 1 Thessalonians 1 v 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in HIS saints, and to be ADMIRED in all them that BELIEVE (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. You will probably say, off again on a tangent
              Well its better to go off in a Tangent of Truth than not at tall.

              Farewell Chas.

            • Merton

              I believe you are sincere. i believe you do want to help people. If your goal is to go down the Trinitarian apologetics route, you need to brush up your knowledge of the actual doctrine since you were unable to answer several of the questions posted by myself and others.

              Remember, I am a truth seeker. I do not assume to have fully understood the bible. If the trinity is infact true, I want to know this truth. However since the trinity doctrine is not explicitly stated in scripture, and our greatest commandment is ‘Our God is Jehovah; Jehovah is one, Love Jehovah with all your heart, soul and being’ we will continue to believe that this one Jehovah is one He, and as such only worship one person as God.

              It’s on the trinitarian to prove the trinity, not the unitarian to prove the unity.

              Thanks for your time

            • chas logue

              Hi Merton,

              I thought when you said that you are a truth seeker, could I suggest that you start with the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is no greater Truth than Him. I believe that you cannot study the word of God naturally. When Peter answered the Lord Jesus’ question Matthew 16 v15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER which is in heaven. Do you not think that when Peter got a revelation from Jehovah, that “Jesus was the Son of God, the living God” if Jehovah declared this to him, and he affirmed to the Lord Jesus, do you not think that maybe you owe it to yourself to look into this statement more. I am realising that I am trying to prove to you something that not only needs a scripture impute, but there is a spiritual element to this by a conviction, and a revelation, and that from God , there are incidents thru the Word of God that he revealed certain things to his prophets, about events or judgments

              I don’t think all the scriptures that I have posted will ever satisfy you about the person of Jehovah, the person of Jesus, and the person of the Holy Spirit. I do think that you should be in a place by yourself, and that you can seek the Lord God to reveal Himself to you. Isaiah in CH 55 says “seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon Him while he is near,” and consider what his Son has done for you. Identify yourself with the words.

              I was guilty with nothing to say,
              And they were coming to take me away.
              But then a voice from Calvary was heard, which said,
              “let him go, and take me instead!”

              And I should have been crucified,
              I should have suffered and died.
              I should have hung on the cross in disgrace,
              But Jesus, God’s Son, took my place.
              v 2

              Crown of thorns, the spear in His side,
              And all the pain should have been mine.
              Those rusty nails were mean’t for me
              Yet Christ took and let me go free

              And I should have been crucified,
              I should have suffered and died.
              I should have hung on the cross in disgrace,
              But Jesus, God’s Son, took my place.

              I really don’t what else that I can post to you, which would be better than a sure Revelation from God.
              I trust that you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free.

              T C


            • Merton

              They are lovely words, thank you.

              You can post all the scriptures you like, but until you answer the questions I posted about who was on the cross, and who was dead i’m afraid you won’t be able to convince me the trinity doctrine is true. Here are those questions again incase you decide to answer them

              WHO was dead on the cross?

              1. Was Jesus dead? Yes or No

              2. Was God the Son dead? Yes or No

              3. Who was the dead person on the cross? Who was the dead person they put in the tomb?

              4. Did anybody die for your sins? If so, who was it?

            • chas logue

              Hi Merton,

              Thanks so much for the compliments, I feel have we a mutual contact. If it is alright with you. I will as soon as, answer your queries, but there is a wee problem, not with the Trinity, but how to reveal to you in such a way so that you can understand it naturally. The way that people become believers is thru process of hearing the message of the Gospel, that God offers forgiveness, because of the fact that his Son has paid the price, for them, and in response to that, they come in to a right standing with God, and in that relationship, believers hearts are opened to him revealing his Person, as well as coming to know God, he is to them, a loving Father. It appears that you would like me to revel it the other way around. I will do this with the hope that you will see. the Awesomeness of Almighty God.
              I would like you to read this wee story, about a king, who heard that a country dear to him had collapsed, and was wanting to help, and that he would do this in secret, and rather than go in all his pomp and glory, he laid all this aside, and he went there as a working man, with all his resources he was able to restore the wee country. I am wondering if the king went to that country to help, would he lose his kingship, after having become a working man?.
              I have looked at your questions again, and I would really need to give you the reasons for my yes/no answers, is that a problem?, By the way I am talking to Jehovah about you.

              T C chas

            • Merton

              “The way that people become believers is thru process of hearing the message of the Gospel, that God offers forgiveness, because of the fact that his Son has paid the price, for them, and in response to that, they come in to a right standing with God, and in that relationship, believers hearts are opened to him revealing his Person, as well as coming to know God, he is to them, a loving Father. ”

              Everything above is sound. We believe the Father (God) sent his Son to die. We don’t dispute this.

              However there are several problems with the story you gave after it. My additions are in CAPITAL LETTERS


            • chas logue

              Hi Merton,
              “The way that people become believers is thru process of hearing the message of the Gospel, that God offers forgiveness, because of the fact that his Son has paid the price, for them, and in response to that, they come in to a right standing with God, and in that relationship, believers hearts are opened to him revealing his Person, as well as coming to know God, he is to them, a loving Father”.

              Many thank for your reply, what I am thinking about this is, that if, as you say, that way, we do agree on, then surely do you not feel that this would be the way for you to proceed. I don’t suppose that you will mind if, I tell you how it happened for me. I heard the Gospel message, and became aware that I was a sinful person, Romans 3 v 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and because of the fact that was born with the fallen nature, and nothing that I could do, would be of any merit Galatians Ch 2 v 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. I felt an inner urge to respond to God’s offer of mercy and forgiveness thru Christ Jesus. I then realised then, what he was providing for me all that I needed to be accepted by Jehovah.

              I have read your version of the king, and looking at it in detail, I am convinced that the teachings you are following, you seem to be accepting them, and, am I right in saying, that you are happy to say that this is what you believe. I am hoping that in answering your questions that it will provoke you in a serious look at the scriptures for yourself, and are sure that what you believe is the truth.

              “WHO was dead on the cross?”
              The incarnate Word, who became flesh, The Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ.

              “1. Was Jesus dead? Yes or No,”
              Having the nature of a human, as a man, Yes he died.

              “2. Was God the Son dead? Yes or No”
              Can I start by saying I really do not like this phrase at all, because first of all it gives the impression that there are three Gods. this truly not the case, this is were I am going to have say they Jesus was not flesh alone but he was also Deity, and not a creature, he was Human and Divine, and not just divinely, the purpose of him was that he was sent by God as his Son, His Lamb to shed his precious blood, 1 Peter 1 v 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

              “3. Who was the dead person on the cross? Who was the dead person they put in the tomb?”
              Part A has been answered in “who was dead on the cross”

              Part B “Who was the dead person they put in the tomb? ”
              Again the person that they put in the tomb was the person that died on the cross, The incarnate Word, who became flesh, The Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ.

              “4. Did anybody die for your sins? If so, who was it?”
              I believe that the answer is again in 1 Peter 1 v 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: CH 2 V 24 Who HIS OWN SELF bare our SINS in HIS OWN BODY on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
              25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
              I feel that if these are not enough to reveal that, Jehovah is Triune, it is because you are placing more emphases on your other teachings
              T C chas

              Ps here is a verse of a hymn by Charles Wesley that is truly reveal what the person of the Lord Jesus is

              Christ, by highest Heaven adored:
              Christ, the everlasting Lord;
              Late in time behold him come,
              Offspring of a virgin’s womb
              Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see;
              Hail, The incarnate Deity:
              Pleased, as man, with men to dwell,
              Jesus, our Emmanuel!
              Hark! the herald angels sing,
              “Glory to the newborn King!”

            • Merton

              I appreciate your responses very much.

              “WHO was dead on the cross?”
              The incarnate Word, who became flesh, The Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ.

              Reply: is the incarnate Word/the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ also known as God?

              “1. Was Jesus dead? Yes or No,”
              Having the nature of a human, as a man, Yes he died.

              Reply: I didn’t ask if Jesus died. I asked if Jesus was dead. Was Jesus dead? Yes or No. Also a follow up question. If the man Jesus Christ was died, can I assume the God Jesus Christ is another person?

              2. Was God the Son dead? Yes or No”
              Can I start by saying I really do not like this phrase at all, because first of all it gives the impression that there are three Gods. this truly not the case, this is were I am going to have say they Jesus was not flesh alone but he was also Deity, and not a creature, he was Human and Divine, and not just divinely, the purpose of him was that he was sent by God as his Son, His Lamb to shed his precious blood, 1 Peter 1 v 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

              reply: (according to Trinitarian speak) God the Son is a person, an identity, the second member of the Trinity. I’m not interested in natures. Natures are not alive, it is a thing (A WHAT) it is not living and breathing person (A WHO). You can define death however you want, I’m only interested in knowing if the person God the Son was dead.

              3. Who was the dead person on the cross? Who was the dead person they put in the tomb?”
              Part A has been answered in “who was dead on the cross”

              Reply: is the incarnate Word/the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ also known as God?

              Part B “Who was the dead person they put in the tomb? ”
              Again the person that they put in the tomb was the person that died on the cross, The incarnate Word, who became flesh, The Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ.

              Reply: Is the incarnate Word/the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ also known as God?

              “4. Did anybody die for your sins? If so, who was it?”
              reply: I’ll assume your answer is Christ. Is Christ also known as God?

              I feel that if these are not enough to reveal that, Jehovah is Triune, it is because you are placing more emphases on your other teachings

              reply:Forgive me, but I honestly laughed when I saw this. How this all reveals that Jehovah is triune is absolutely criminal. You didn’t even mention a third person. It proves Jehovah is triune about as much as it proves Jehovah is 100,000. But this leads me to another question…

              question: Is Jehovah a person/persons (a who/whos) or a nature (a what)?

              If Jehovah is a person, how can 3 persons be 1 person? 3 cars are never 1 car. 3 humans are never one human.

              If Jehovah are persons, why do the scriptures have thousands of personal pronouns used of Jehovah such as I, He, Me, Him, My instead of We, Us, Our, They, Them.

              Looking forward to your responses.

            • chas logue

              Hi Merton, I thought that if we had a mutual contact, there would be some respect, for each other, but on your part is not the case, as soon as I uphold the Deity of Jesus, man of Calvary, and also proclaiming that Jehovah is Triune, then you are off on the offensive, with such mocking, and making it out to be a laughing matter. Therefore I am going to just reply to some things that you have said, because in “Christ in am accepted in the beloved”,Ephesians 1v6 and complete in Him, Colossians 2 v10, that my life is hid with CHRIST in GOD,3 V3

              I have come to the conclusion that your understanding is about as deep as the G B mouthpiece, Greg Stafford who said and I, Quote” if Jehovah is God, then he cannot be man, and if Jesus is man he cannot be God.” unquote. This is a woeful understanding of the person of Jehovah, it is a great example of limiting the Almighty Creator Jehovah. Luke chi 1 v28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou salt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and salt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the SON OF THE HIGHEST : and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy being which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

              In this statement that I would like to reply to is your quote ” I’m not interested in natures. Natures are not alive,” If that is your case, how is it that anyone who is a human being is part of the nature of creation. and especially you should be looking at the person of the Lord Jesus, who was born of the virgin, so that he was totally human, him being a man, could be the perfect, sinless holy sacrifice able to shed His precious human blood as the Lamb of God.

              I can honestly say that 99% of what I posted to you is scriptures, which are from the trustworthy K G V.

              Your quote “If Jehovah are persons, why do the scriptures have thousands of personal pronouns used of Jehovah such as I, He, Me, Him, My instead of We, Us, Our, They, Them.”1. Psalm 2v 12 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

              2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against HIS ANOINTED, saying,

              3 Let us break THEIR bands asunder, and cast away THEIR cords from us.

              4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

              5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

              6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

              7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

              John14v 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him. 2 John 2v 77 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgressed, and abided not in the DOCTRINE of Christ, hath NOT God. He that abided in the doctrine of Christ, he hath BOTH the FATHER and the SON.

              I believe the we will go to and fro with questions and more questions and we will not convince either of us other than what we believe, I think that we should agree to disagree, because, your replies are to say the least, can be rather a mockery of the person of the Lord Jesus, which to me are offensive. Finally the questions that you are repeating for answers, are what can I say ” did God Die on the cross” how would answer that, if course he did not die how could God die, is it was HIS Son the incarnate the word, was able to die, and had the power to dismiss His own spirit. at his death. not like us humans who’s spirit is required by God who give it Ecclesiastes 12: 7

              Although I accessed it to challenge some of the vile teachings about the Lord Jesus, it is more grievous to remain posting, as no matter what scriptures I quote they are discounted. Why should we listen to someone who is a Trinitarian, what do they know about Jehovah, this is the Jehovah that I am trusting in,

              John 1v 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

              Isaiah 40 v3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a HIGHWAY FOR OUR GOD. Isaiah 7 v14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Matthew 1v 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

              23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.

              I hope that one day that you will realise that this is the Jehovah and that you can put your life into His Hands.

              TC chas

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Chas; I could not help but to think of you when I was reading these scriptures today.

              Always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

              Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly* will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men 2Timothy 3:7-9.

              2 Thessalonians 2:11
              That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them / [YOU]
              so that they may come to believe the lie.

              1 Timothy 4:1
              However, the inspired word* clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,

            • D34D 4L!3N

              “2 Thessalonians 2:11
              That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them / [YOU]
              so that they may come to believe the lie.”

              that scripture certainly applies and has come to my mind also

            • chas logue

              Hi Bklyn Kevin,
              your quote ” Always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”
              JOHN CH 14 V 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
              8 v 32 And ye shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you free.
              V36 If the SON therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
              1 John 5 v 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know HIM that IS TRUE, and we( I AM IN HIM ) are IN HIM that is TRUE, even in HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. This is the TRUE God, and eternal life.
              This my TRUTH, can you give any better truth than what I have, which is in the Lovely Lord Jesus Christ, so i don’t have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH I HAVE THE REAL TRUTH, AMEN.


            • Bklyn Kevin
            • chas logue
            • Bklyn Kevin

              2 Peter 3:16 B. some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable / [YOU] are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction
              2 Peter 2:12 But these men / [YOU ARE ], like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born* to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They / [you] will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course,

            • chas logue
            • Bklyn Kevin

              Chas Try studying the whole chapter of John 1: you know the context! like verse 2 / 3.

              This one was in the beginning “with” God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

              Apparently it has escaped their notice that John 1:3 says “all things came into existence through him.” The word through is very important in that context, because it implies that Jesus was merely the creative agency that God used. And certainly that is in harmony with what is revealed throughout the Greek Scriptures.

            • chas logue

              what kind of a person is Jehovah that he would share his plans his purposes and His Glory thru a creature, shocking heresy.

              Jehovah created all things thru his WORD, the psalms say that “He spoke and it was He commanded and it stood fast” Jesus is HIS WORD. ABSOLUTELY !!!!!!!

            • Merton

              Well he shares his glory with Jesus disciples. That’s a bit of a problem for you. Somewhere in John 17.

            • chas logue

              Isaiah 42 v8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and MY GLORY will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

              I think that you should try to read what what the Word of Truth says,
              John 17 v 5 And now, O Father, GLORIFY thou me with thine own self with THE GLORY which I had with thee before the world was. v24 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may BEHOLD (BEHOLD SEE SEE NOT SHARE) MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
              I think that you will see, if course if you want to see that Jehovah shared his GLORY rightfully with his ONLY UNIQUE SON WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER. all believers one day will behold the glory of the triune God Jehovah.

            • Merton

              John 17:20-22. All the believers get the same glory that Jesus got from the Father.

              How many members of the godhead now? A few million?

              The problem with your premise is that what you really want Isaiah 42:8 and Isaiah 48:11 to say is ‘ I am Yahweh, and my glory will i not give to another EXCEPT ME’. When a man says to his wife ‘I am your husband, and my love i will not give to another’ do you think the wife doesn’t expect the husband to give her his love? Of course not. She understands that the husband will not give his love to another person EXCEPT HER. Instead of taking an isolated verse from Isaiah, go and look at who Jehovah is talking to in Isaiah 42 and 48. And then once you’ve done that, go and read the following verses:

              Isaiah 44:23
              Isaiah 49:3
              Romans 9:4
              Isaiah 55:5
              Isaiah 60:1, 19
              Isaiah 43:1-7
              Isaiah 46:13

              Israel and the house of Jacob both get God’s glory. This is undeniable. A much better way of looking at Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 is ‘I am Yahweh, and my glory i will not give to another EXCEPT YOU’ (The YOU being the nation or whatever who is being spoken to in these chapters).

              When you’re in a hole, it’s time to stop digging. But I look forward to the excuse making coming up.

            • Merton

              If you were actually to agree with me on this point, I might start to think to myself you are an honest person who is truth-seeking (we are all seeking truth btw). Remember, don’t imagine I’m staying the trinity is not true (even though that is what I believe), all I’m saying is that your point about Isaiah 42:8/48:11 is demonstrably false.

              Agree with me on this and we might get somewhere. Disagree and it just proves you are not interested in finding truth but are rather intend on promoting a doctrine in the face of lies. It’s your choice.

            • chas logue

              900 years ago, Israel’s greatest King David, who God said, “that he was a man after my own heart”, Acts Ch 13, when he chose him to be Israel’s next king. David prophesied and said, Psalm 110 v1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies THY FOOTSTOOL. then when the Lord Jesus was among the people, Matthew 22 v 42, Mark & Luke Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him(Jesus) Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord(Jesus), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies THY FOOTSTOOL? If David then call him(Jesus)Lord, how is he(Jesus) his son? Then on the day of Pentecost, Peter proclaimed, Acts 2 v 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man APPROVED of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 5 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
              26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

              28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up CHRIST to sit on his THRONE; 31 He SEEING THIS before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

              33 Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD EXAULTED, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is NOT ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my LORD(JESUS), Sit thou on my right hand. 35 Until I make THY FOES THY FOOTSTOOL. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the SAME JESUS, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and CHRIST. There are millions and millions of believers in the past and now, who like King David, Believe that David’s LORD JESUS is their Lord Jesus, Today the Lord Jesus is mocked, scoffed, ridiculed and demonised by this enemies, the Pharisees’ and scribes, said that the Lord Jesus was the friend of sinners, and I can assure if you do not make Him your Friend, then you are a foe, and one day JEHOVAH will make you His Son’s FOOTSTOOL,

              Luke 13 v 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?

              3 I tell you, Nay: but, except YE REPENT, ye shall ALL likewise PERISH. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except YE REPENT, ye shall ALL likewise PERISH.

              This is the Word of God.

            • chas logue

              Hi Merton,You said to me, in one of your replies that you were a sincere seeker, but I think that rather you are a scoffer, and here is the reason why, In one of your replies to me when I was dealing with ” I am he”, you replied that the blind man, answered the elders, I am he, the man who was blind, you said that, because he used the Phrase ” I am he”, that he was, and you mocked, part of the Godhead, when some time later, answering me about the Trinity, you mocked again, that it was “laughable“. and now in your recent reply, about God sharing his Glory, (and I might as well say here, that what I was talking about was His personal Glory, the Majestic Triune Glory, that is wholly His), again mocked, how many millions are in the Godhead. This really sickens me, and I am going to say something that may be for you a hard pill to shallow. I believe that you have become loaded with a carnal knowledge of the bible, and that you have become very prone to being full of self importance. I genuine seeker will be sincere about, his quest, here are some examples of people in the Scriptures, when Abraham interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah, he said “who am I but dust and ashes”, then Job who God said that there was none like him in all the earth, he, Job said “behold I am vile”, and Isaiah said “I am a man of unclean lips” We find when Peter meets the Lord Jesus he says” Lord depart from me for I am a sinful man, the prodigal son when he comes to himself, says “I have sinned against heaven, and am more worthy to be called thy son”. The Pharisee and the publican who pray in the temple, the publican who does not as much as lift his eyes up to heaven, (a sign of his guilt), who smote upon his breast (a sign of his contrition) and saying, “God be merciful to me a sinner“, who did the Lord Jesus say went to his house justified,?

              Finally here is a great example of humility, Matthew 15 v 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

              23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us.

              24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and WORSIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the CHILDREN’S BREAD, and to cast it to DOGS.

              27 And she said, TRUTH LORD: yet the DOGS eat of the CRUMBS which fall from their masters’ table.

              28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, GREAT is THY FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. So if you are sincere you will have to think about a similar way, not in a proud way but in humble way , seeking mercy and peace with Jehovah God.


            • Merton

              Are you going to reply to my statement about God giving his glory to other people? Look at the scriptures I quoted showing other people get the glory. And please just answer the questions posted, your rambling on responses just causes me to switch off. I’m only interested in the Isaiah 42:8/48:11 bit.

              Regarding me saying the Godhead was now a million people or so that is referring to your logic that God doesn’t give his glory to anybody else and since Christ’s followers get the glory, they must also be part of the Godhead. Now you know how we unitarians feel about you trinitarians.

            • patri

              Brother, with respect.
              Please read 2 Tim 23-26 NKJV and ponder whether this is worth continuing …

            • Merton

              You are of course correct. He can worship Christendom’s Golden Calf, we will worship Jesus’ God.

            • chas logue

              Regarding, what you said about seeking, I happily posted you some scriptures from God’s Holy word, but as you were more interested in my rely to His Glory, that you cast as aside His Holy word, you know something all your questions and answers have come from the HEAD, I think it is time for me to ask you one question, and can you answer me from the HEART, “what Glory of Jehovah have you experienced“, and can you try and not say something sarcastic please.

              There is an idiom about the heart
              “The Heart of the substance, is the substance of the heart
              The heart of the core, is the core of heart
              The heart of the evil is the evil of the heart.

              Genesis 6v5 , Jeremiah 17v 9 & 10, 2 v 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of LIVING WATER, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. John ch 4 v 14 But whosoever drinketh of the WATER that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the WATER that I shall give him shall be in him a WELL OF WATER SPRINGING UP INTO ETERNAL LIFE. 7 v 37B & 38 If any man THIRST, let him come unto me, and DRINK. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER.

              Joel ch 2v 12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your HEART, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your HEART, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

            • Merton

              You are the one who bought the glory issue up, and as per usual with trinitarians, as soon as they get a rebuttal they want to change subject and discuss another ‘proof’ verse. The end result is we get nowhere. I told you already, i’m not looking at any of your other verses until you answer my rebuttal regarding other people getting God’s glory.

              Your attempt at ‘evangelising’ Jehovah’s Witnesses and unitarians in general on this site has failed. Your time would be better spent elsewhere ‘evangelising’ others.

              You get back to serving your God, and we’ll get back to serving Jesus’ God.

            • chas logue

              That’s a laugh getting a rebuttal from an unbeliever and a unitarian is about as stupid as a chocolate fire place, or a trap door in a boat, it stand for nothing,
              Deuteronomy ch5 v23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; and ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us HIS GLORY and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.Psalm 8 v1 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set THY GLORY above the HEAVENS. 143 v13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; HIS GLORY IS ABOVE the earth and heaven. Isaiah 48 11& 12 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give MY GLORY unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
              Romans ch3v 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For ALL HAVE SINNED , and come SHORT of the GLORY of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

              1 Corinthians 1 v28 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no FLESH should GLORY in his presence.2 Thessalonians 1 v8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the GLORY of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 1 Peter 1 v23 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all FLESH is as grass, and all the GLORY OF MAN as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

            • Merton

              ‘a unitarian is about as stupid as a chocolate fire place, or a trap door in a boat, it stands for nothing’

              Jesus was (and still is) a unitarian. Think about that for a minute.

            • chas logue

              Ha! Ha! Ha! The Lord Jesus, a Unitarian fantasy, fantasy, fantasy, only in your wildest fleshly carnal dreams.

            • Merton

              You’ll only ever find Jesus worshipping or praying to the Father.

            • chas logue

              of course, that would be according to your corrupt and perverted theology, or should I say theocraticology

            • chas logue

              David prophesied and said, Psalm 110 v1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL. Matthew 22 v 42, Mark & Luke, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord(Jesus), saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord(Jesus), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL? 45 If David then call him Lord,(Jesus) how is he(Jesus) his son?

              The issue that I am making here is that JEHOVAH GOD will not have far to look to find Enemies of this Beloved Son, the Lord Jesus, The Rose of Sharon, The Lily of the Valley, and The Bright and Morning Star. Such enemies are the Unitarians, with their corrupt teachings, the insults and mockery of the Person of his Son, along with Sceptics, Liberalists, Modernists, Muslims, and all such that blatantly reject and scoff that His Person. I urge to think about this, as I am declaring this to in the name of JEHOVAH GOD, that having sent his Son to die the most horrible death for you all, that in rejecting his sacrifice, and because of your unbelief will have to face Jehovah’s condemnation, John 3 v 18 He that believeth ON him is not condemned: but he that believeth NOT is CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God. v 36 He that believeth on the SON hath everlasting life: and he that believeth NOT the SON shall not see LIFE; but the WRATH OF GOD abideth on him.

            • chas logue

              2 The same(THE WORD) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made(created) by him( THE WORD); and without him(THE WORD) was not any thing made(CREATED) that was made( CREATED).
              4 In him( THE WORD) was life; and the life( THE WORD) was the light of men. This verse would agree with the verse in John ch 6 v63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

            • chas logue
            • Bklyn Kevin

              Chas A good questions to ask your self …… Are you an Antichrist?)

              According to John one of the identifying factors of the proliferating antichrists back then was that they denied that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh. And to be sure, the predominate teaching of Christendom, the Trinity – considered to be the very cornerstone and an essential article of faith,
              does just that – it denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Instead of being the flesh and blood Son of God the “Jesus” of the antichrists was/is a demigod – God in the flesh. By making Jesus out to be Almighty God the antichrists deny that Jesus’ life in the flesh depended upon his obedience to God unto death. (See YouTube video: Are you an Antichrist?)

            • chas logue


              1 John 4v1-4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many FALSE PROPHETS are gone out into the world.

              2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh ( incarnation) is of God:

              3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh ( Incarnation) is not of God: and this is that SPIRIT OF THE ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Mathew 24 v11 And many FALSE PROPHTES shall rise, and shall deceive many.

              2 Peter 2v1 But there were FALSE PROPHTES also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable HERECIES, even DENING the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

              Luke 6 v 26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the FALSE PROPHETS .

            • Merton

              I’ll agree that antichrists are against Christ, but you won’t find anything in John’s 1st letter about it being about denying Christ’s divinity or that Christ is God. Try again.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Chas You give new meaning to the nursery rhyme,
              “three blind mice” .
              Which one of them are you?.
              I guess You’re the one who suffers from severe spiritual impairment.
              The cause” > excessive Indulgence in satanic reading from various man made false doctrine.
              The symptoms” > boastful, haughty, blasphemers, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; 2 Timothy 3:

              The cure” Pray constantly. Give thanks for everything. This is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not put out the fire of the spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt. “Make sure of all things” hold fast to what is fine. Abstain from every form of wickedness. 1 Thessalonians 5:18-22. Let the wicked man leave his way.And the evil man his thoughts;

              Let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy on him,
              To our God, for he will forgive in a large way.Isaiah 55:7.

            • Jonah Peter Paul

              we liked the part “three blind mice” that was awesome and funny. you could pair him up with the other blind team mates of his who also love to push their senseless beliefs on here.

            • chas logue

              Your Quote ” does just that – it denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Instead of being the flesh and blood Son of God the “Jesus” of the antichrists was/is a demigod – God in the flesh.”
              I think that the demi god idea is more in line with what you believe. It is incredible that you make this statement, for your teachings say, I really don’t know what, that he is, a creature /an angel /Michael, and a little god, who knows what else.)))
              What a twisting of the Word of truth, this scripture deals with people that deny that “The word, Jesus, who is God, JOHN 1V1 has come in the flesh, but to you that is incomprehensible, Surely Jehovah cannot be that miraculous. I would like to make it plain, for us the humanity of the Lord Jesus is paramount to him being able to take the sinners place on Calvary, and shed his precious blood. The lamb of God, which bears away the sin of the world.

              Hebrews 2 v 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also HIMSELF likewise took PART of the SAME; that through DEATH he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

              Philippians 2v7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKNESS OF MEN: 8 And being found in fashion AS A MAN, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

              10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

              11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

              1 john 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have HEARD, which we have SEEN with our eyes, which we have LOOKED upon, and our hands have HANDLED, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was MANIFESTED, and we have SEEN it, and bear witness, and show unto you that ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father, and was MANIFESTED unto us;)

            • Merton

              Deuteronomy 6:4. Have a look how Jesus interpreted this at Mark 12:28. The Lord is one He. one person. He doesn’t say the Lord is one nature/being. Even worse, the scribe and Jesus both agree with each other. The lord is one He. If in fact deuteronomy 6:4 meant there was more than one person, Jesus could have told the scribe there and then. But he didn’t. They both agree the Lord God is ONE HE. Singular personal pronouns are used for one person.

              You’re right ‘echad’ does mean ‘one’. That’s all it means. One. exactly the same as in english. The compound unity you’re trying to imply comes from the NOUN that accompanies ‘one’. One team contains many players. One cluster contains many grapes. One book contains many chapters. One band contains many musical players. One flock contains many sheep etc etc. it’s the noun that has the many things within it, not the word ECHAD/ONE.

              The word for God has a plural ending in hebrew, true. So if in fact it does mean plural, why are SINGULAR verbs used when referring to the one God? Did you know the same word, elohim is used for the pagan gods? But when it refers to these foreign gods, it comes with a PLURAL verb, suggesting there are many persons as gods. Yet when it’s used of Yahweh/Jehovah, it’s (I think) always the singular verb. Elohim says (He says), Elohim does (he does) NEVER Elohim say (they say), Elohim want (they want). Absolute nonsense. If elohim is indeed supposed to mean plural, it would come with a plural verb!! Never the case!!!!

              According to your doctrine, the Angel of the Lord isn’t infact an Angel but is in fact God. In fact, as your video shows, your doctrine forces you to say The messenger of God is infact God. The reason you can talk to the messengers of God as if they are God himself, is because they are delivering God’s message. That’s why the angels say ” I Yahweh say…” but it’s not God himself talking!!!! Exactly the same as the angel in revelation. The angel is delivering Jesus’ message that’s why he can say ‘I’m coming quickly, I am the alpha and the omega” etc etc. The Angel of the Lord is an angel. The reason he says “I am who I am” is because he is delivering God’s message to Moses. And the ego eimi in John 8:58 has been refuted before. The blind man in John 9:9 uses THE EXACT SAME PHRASE. Jesus himself said in John 8:54, If i glorify myself it means nothing and trinitarians have Jesus glorifying himself just 4 verses later in the highest possible way. You are exactly the same as the jews, Jesus said ‘why can’t you understand my words?’

              Take your doctrine and go to another place. You are promoting lawlessness. We here serve the same God as Jesus. You serve Christendom’s Golden Calf.

            • Bklyn Kevin
            • chas logue
            • Bklyn Kevin

              A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will fall into a pit, will they not? Luke 6:39 B.
              But what about the one who DUG the pit, What will happen to him?
              The one who digs a pit will fall into it,
              And whoever rolls away a stone—it will come back on him. Proverbs 26:27.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              When people are under the influence of Satan they tend lose their powers of reasoning In respect to Discerning the scriptures .
              In your case that appears to be true because regardless of the overwhelming evidence that we have given you based on the scriptures You still persist in the Trinity lie and your garbled explanations Which are nonsense / ” Incomprehensible” to say the least.

              Please take notice of your own words.
              Quote “This my TRUTH”, can you give any better truth than what I have, {end Quote}
              That’s just what it is ” your truth” and you yourself even admit it In your own commentary .
              Now you also ask if we can give you a batter truth than what you already have and we did Based on scriptures and yet you still reject what we have already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt .

              The scriptures plainly make mention of people who are like you.
              So please take note of what Paul said Concerning people like yourself.
              But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:

              John 8:42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

            • chas logue

              Colossians 1 v 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
              13 Who hath delivered us from THE POWER OF DARKNESS, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
              Ephesians 6 v 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the WILES OF THE DEVIL. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of THE DARKNESS of this world, against spiritual WICKETNESS in high places.
              1 Peter 5 v 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary THE DEVIL, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom RESIST steadfast in THE FAITH, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

              James ch 4v 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to GOD . RESIST THE DEVIL, and he will FLEE from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

              1 john 2v12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

              13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the WICKED ONE . I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the WICKED ONE.

              ch 5 v 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that WICKED ONE TOUCHES HIM NOT . 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

              1 John 3 v3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is HE that is in you, than HE that is in the world.

            • e.v.g

              I have always wondered why people believe the opposite to the scriptures. It took me some time to understand and put into practice some biblical principles, although I already knew some of them, I guess the problem is rooted tendencies and bad practices, (Mat 15:19) Sometimes or all the time we don’t have the best intentions. I would like to understand the mind of Christ.

            • e.v.g

              Is not easy to go against the stream in this sistem of things,
              humanity is in a frantic race to the desires disapproved by God, maybe stomping it to achieve what they want, perhaps using religion as a pretext, without giving true glory to God.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              Well if any person truly knowns the scriptures / truth and teaches something contrary,
              than it is obvious that they are from their father the devil however it’s good to keep in mind that the whole world as well as the watchtower is lying in the power of the wick one Satan and many People from their birth had been misled by the various religions that are under satan’s influence,and those of us who know the truth are under obligation to participate in the preaching work to the
              best of our ability as to clarify scriptural doctrines as well as the basic truth.

              And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived,so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea+ and the springs of water.”
              Revelation 14:6-7

              16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,so that everyone exercising faith in him
              might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

              17 For God did not sendhis Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
              18Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged
              already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

              19 Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world,+ but men have loved
              the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked.

              20 For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved.

              21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              The natural Israel / sons were invited first however they rejected Jesus and killed him, so the call went out to the gentile nations.
              Then Paul and Barʹna·bas boldly said to them: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. For Jehovah has commanded us in these words: ‘I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the ends of the earth.’” When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah,* and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers Acts 13:46-48.

              Once more Jesus spoke to them with illustrations, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who made a marriage feast for his son. And he sent his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Look! I have prepared my dinner, my bulls and fattened animals are slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the marriage feast.”’ But unconcerned they went off, one to his own field, another to his business; but the rest, seizing his slaves, treated them insolently and killed them. verse 9 “Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast Matthew 22:1-6

              You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise .Galatians 3:26-29

              Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring* will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring. Romans 9:7-8

            • chas logue

              Hi Bklyn Kevin,
              I think that you need to have a serious read at Romans 11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

              2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

              3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

              4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

              5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

              6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

              7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

              8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

              9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

              10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

              11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke them to jealousy.

              12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their FULLNESS?

              13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

              14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

              15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

              16 For if the firstfruit be HOLY, the lump is also HOLY: and if the root be HOLY, so are the branches.

              17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the ROOT and FATNESS of the olive tree;

              18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the ROOT thee.

              19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

              20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

              21 For if God spared not the NATURAL branches, take heed lest he also SPARE not thee.

              22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

              23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to GRAFT THEM IN again.

              24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

              25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IS IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

              26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away UNGODLINESS from Jacob:

              27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their SINS.

              28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

              29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

              30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

              31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

              32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

              33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

              34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

              35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

              36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

            • e.v.g

              Psss, psss, hey Kevin it can be contagious, let it go.

            • Bklyn Kevin

              That’s good advice and that’s exactly what I’m going to do .

            • D34D 4L!3N

              that was a serpurp response Kevin. personally thats one topic im not that quick to reply with but that was really well said

            • Brian

              Do you think the so called nation of Israel today is the one being referred to in Isaiah?

            • Bklyn Kevin
            • Brian

              Kevin, thanks for the link to this article. I don’t think I need to take this in again as I am already in the mindset of what is being stated. I know that the “new nation of Israel” are or is made up of those that will be chosen from those that are called already and a few still into the future.

            • Merton

              For once, we agree.

            • Merton

              WHO was dead on the cross?

              1. Was Jesus dead? Yes or No
              2. Was God the Son dead? Yes or No
              3. Who was the dead person on the cross?
              4. Did anybody die for your sins? If so, who was it?

              Just answer the questions, don’t go off on some foot stamping tangent.

            • chas logue

              1 Yes
              2 Yes the man Christ Jesus
              3 Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the living God
              4 Romans 5 v6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
              v8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
              1 Peter 3 v1818 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
              Hebrews 10v 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
              10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
              11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
              12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

            • Merton

              Thanks for answering my questions. Please see my comments

              1. Ok
              2. Please answer the question. I didn’t ask if the man Christ Jesus was dead. I asked if God the Son was dead. Yes or No.
              3. Is the Lord Jesus Christ also known as God?
              4.Please answer the question. I asked if anybody died for your sins. I want to know WHO died for your sins.

              Thanks again for answering in a decent manner and using some scripture

            • chas logue

              Why should I answer any more of your Christ Demeaning Questions, you do not have a clue about the Person of The Lord Jesus you cannot work that he was human and yet Deity, in his humanity he came as man, to bring mankind to God, and as God he alone had the Holy and Righteousness, to be accepted by God, and present us as sons of God, John 1v 12.

            • Merton

              I rest my case =)

  • chas logue

    To all who can see, Read, What Jehovah God saith unto a Watchtower org, about the Truth of John 1v 1

    Taken from a G. I. N. T.
    Εν αρχη ην ο λογος,
    in(the) beginning was the Word,

    και ο λογος ηυ προς τον θεον,
    and the Word was with the God,
    ((How in the name of Jehovah can this “the God” be changed in the next sentence to a god))
    according to your translation, “and a god was the Word“ this typically means any god,

    και θεος ην ο λογος.
    and God was the word.
    ((In this line we have two Subject Nouns which have the “ ος ” endings, θεος and ο λογος, either one can be read BEFORE the verb, which one?, according to Greek, and English grammar, the Subject Noun with the DEFINITE article is read before the verb.
    And THE WORD was GOD. This is the case in all the Truthful Translations, and not the erroneous Critical Greek Text used by today’s publishers ((The in definite article “a” does not even have to be used anywhere in the verse, to belittle the person of The Lord Jesus Christ.))

    Text from English Grammar. The subject noun is the noun at the beginning of a sentence.
    Easiest way to put it is that a subject noun is the subject of the sentence and answers who or what to the verb (and usually comes before the verb in a sentence).

  • e.v.g

    I have found the epilogue from Jehovah himself has become King very insightful (the whole book is interesting) although probably is not achieving the desired effect for which is being directed, there are many articles and information in this site very important to consider,
    but know the truth does not mean that changes actually carryout. Perhaps for some there are other interests.

  • chas logue

    I Would like to draw your attention to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, MATTHEW 12 v 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and BLASPHEMEY shall be forgiven unto men: but the BLASPHEMEY AGAINST the Holy Ghost shall NOT be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever SPEAKETH a word AGAINST the SON OF MAN, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever SPEAKETH AGAINST the HOLY GHOST, it shall NOT be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Here the Lord Jesus states an additional sin of Blasphemy, but it does not refer to Jehovah, it refers, firstly to the Holy Ghost,(Spirit) and then to Himself, as the Son of Man.
    The following verses state that, blasphemy is committed, when it is against the HOLY NAME of JEHOVAH,
    2 Kings 19 v 21 This is the word that the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. 22 Whom hast thou reproached and BLASPHEMED? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. Romans 2v 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of GOD is BLASPHEMED among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. JAMES in his epistle tells us “rich men oppress you and draw you before the judgment seats” causing the worthy Name by which they are called to be Blasphemed JAMES 2 v 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they BLASPHEME that WORTHY NAME by the which ye are CALLED?( all believers are called by the Name of the Lord Jesus)
    This is something to take note of that your teachings say that the Lord Jesus is a “created, being/ angel, or a little god“, and that the Holy Spirit is God’s “ active force”, which is really speaking against and blaspheming the Person of the Holy Spirit, this is a dangerous position to be saying anything against the Holy Spirit.
    So how Then can The lord Jesus say that it is blasphemy, to say anything against the Holy Spirit, and Himself, which are not Deity, according to your Erroneous teachings, I would like to remind you again that there are only three persons that can be BLASPHEMED, JEHOVAH, THE LORD JESUS, and THE HOLY SPIRIT.


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