Child Baptism – Why it is Wrong

//Child Baptism – Why it is Wrong

Commentary on Jehovah’s Witnesses Daily Text

Tuesday, June 6

Who of you wanting to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it?Luke 14:28.

Every year thousands of young people around the world get baptized. Christian parents and elders in the congregation want to make sure that such young ones make a decision that is not only voluntary but also well-founded. The steps of dedication and baptism are the start of a life during which Christians will experience blessings from Jehovah but also opposition from Satan. Therefore, Christian parents take time to teach their children what is involved in being a disciple of Christ. In the case of young ones who have no Christian parents, the elders in the congregation will lovingly help them to count the cost of discipleship. Just as it takes planning to complete a building project successfully, so it requires preparation to serve Jehovah faithfully “to the end.”

Every year thousands of young people around the world get disfellowshipped. Short of being incarcerated in a correctional facility it is probably the most devastating punishment that can be inflicted on a young person. That is because at the most formative time in their lives they are suddenly cut off from supportive family and friends and publicly branded as persons unworthy of life. And why is this cruel punishment imposed upon them? Because they were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses when they were young.

The question really is, why do parents even allow their children to be baptized? Why subject them to a possible judicial inquiry and cutting off if they happen to succumb to the desires incidental to youth? As the day’s text exhorts, it is wise to count the cost.  And make no mistake, the cost imposed by the Watchtower may be severe! 

Would a parent allow their child to get married when they were 15 or 16 or younger —assuming it was even legal? Children aren’t allowed to drive cars or drink alcohol, vote, work a regular job, join the military, watch certain movies without parental guidance, and a host of other things, until the reach a certain age of accountability. Why then does the Watchtower encourage and promote child baptism, which is considered the most important and far-reaching commitment a person can enter into?

The Watchtower has frequently attacked the Catholic Church’s practice of infant baptism on the grounds that legitimate baptism requires that a person knowingly, willingly make a commitment to God and Christ. Infants cannot possibly do that. But can a child?

Man hanging on garbage truckChildren typically have unrealistic and fantastical ideas of what they want to be when they grow up. For example, when I was about five years old I wanted to be a garbage man. I thought it was the coolest thing to hang on the side of a truck as it rolled down the street. But obviously, children’s desires change as they mature. That’s why schools provide guidance counselors to help them choose the right courses in order to reach their goals. That being true, why does the Watchtower allow children as young as seven and eight to enter into a binding commitment to God?

This is not to suggest that children ought not be trained as Christians. Not at all, Christian parents are obligated to bring their children up in the mental regulating of Jehovah. A child can show their godly devotion by obeying their parents and even becoming an unbaptized publisher. But baptism? What scriptural precedent is there for such a thing? There is none. There is not one single instance in the Greek Scriptures of a child being baptized. (Paul referred to Timothy as a child and one who knew the Scriptures from infancy, but he was likely in his late teens or early 20’s when the elders laid their hands upon him and he began working alongside Paul.)

The fact is, the Watchtower did not always promote child baptism. It is a relatively recent phenomena that began in the 1980’s. Since then younger and younger children have been baptized. But why? Given the fact that the Watchtower regulates virtually every aspect of the spiritual lives of Jehovah’s Witnesses, child baptism would not be in vogue if it were not promoted by Bethel. Quite likely it is a scheme to pad the numbers of official publishers to offset the exodus of the hundreds of thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have become disillusioned and disgusted with the Watchtower.

Given the Watchtower’s callous disregard for the safety and welfare of all the children among the thousands of congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses that have been subjected to the Society’s lawyer-formulated child abuse policies, which have resulted in untold harm to far too many innocent lives, we should not expect the Governing Body to show any regard for the tender lives that are crushed by disfellowshipping baptized teen offenders.

What is the solution? Simple. God is going to destroy the present organization. Their lawyers, head hunters and bean counters and prophets will be out of work. In its place a new organization —the Kingdom of God. The second chapter of Micah lays it out, the concluding verses say: “I will certainly gather all of you, O Jacob; I will surely collect the remaining ones of Israel together. In unity I will place them, like sheep in the pen, like a flock in its pasture; it will be noisy with people.’ The one breaking out will go before them; they will break out and pass through the gate and go out by it. Their king will pass through before them, with Jehovah at their head.”

The Watchtower frequently applies this passage to the present grouping of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But such cannot possibly be the case. The gathering and collecting of the remaining ones of “Israel” comes in the aftermath of a terrible destruction. Verses 8-10: “But lately my own people have risen up as an enemy. You openly strip off the majestic ornament with the garment from those passing by confidently, like those returning from war. You drive the women of my people out from their delightful houses; from their children you take away my splendor forever. Get up and go, for this is no place of rest. Because of uncleanness, there is destruction, grievous destruction.”

How true, the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses have changed into enemies of God. They no longer consider it their solemn duty to render justice to the weak and vulnerable, the proverbial widows and fatherless boys. No, women and children alike are sacrificed upon the organizational altar. Only a “grievous destruction” can set matters straight. 

More on the book of Micah and its application to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

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2017-06-06T18:13:40+00:00 June 6th, 2017|Commentary|378 Comments
  • Joseph S.

    Never once did I believe in childhood baptism, because Jesus Christ set the example…….30 years old.

    Look at ALL the damage childhood baptism causes, including suicide.

    What is the solution? Simple. God is going to destroy the present organization. Their lawyers, head hunters and bean counters and prophets will be out of work. In its place a new organization —the Kingdom of God.

    • J.M.J.

      I agree whole heartedly with what you have just wrote . (Both Robert and Joseph) .It used to be said as a model that Jesus waited until 30 to start his ministry and showed this with his baptism ,and it was used years ago as a model .Obviously it is a numbers thing nowadays and persons not able to keep up are collateral damage .

    • Burt Reynolds

      They used to frown on child baptism. As you say, it’s about dosh now and numbers. It reminds me of a time when I was in hospital, and the lady next to me had dementia. Her family had her baptised into Catholicism and the priest performed the ceremony……wait for it…….while she was asleep!!!!!! because the family knew she would object othwise. There is no limit to how low people will sink.

      • Beverly kenyon

        Seriously! That is twisted!

        • Burt Reynolds

          That is something the Catholics and JWs have in common….control…at any cost.

          • The Raven

            Unfortunately, I can attest to that.

      • The Raven

        Oh man!

  • Joseph S.

    One way the Watchtower gets into people’s heads is by making them feel that they’re unworthy, not good enough, inferior. “DO MORE. DO MORE!!!!” That is the chant of circuit overseers and elders all around the world. NOBODY could keep up the pace that the Watchtower has given its followers. And the result for JWs is GUILT!!! Without a doubt, the leadership continue to browbeat the flock.They are anything but “loving shepherds”

    • Burt Reynolds

      That is SO right. Guilt was like a tattoo on my forehead for the entire time I was at the hall. It consumed my life and made me into a man-pleaser, or more strictly speaking, an Elder-pleaser and though I knew it, it made me feel it was somehow right and that it was Jehovah’s way to keep us disciplined. If only I knew then, what I know now!

      • Beverly kenyon

        Wow, and I thought I was the only guilt ridden witness going! Guilt was my ‘best friend’. Looking back it was like being in an abusive relationship and I was determined to make my abuser love me by trying to please even though I was terribly unhappy and miserable and feeling guilty because I felt I wasn’t trying hard enough.

        • Burt Reynolds

          That’s it in a nutshell!

        • Burt Reynolds

          I’ll send you a copy of Burt’s Book of Religious Guilt. Revised Edition, now either an entirly new chapter on How to Shun Your Nearest and Dearest and ‘Fifty Ways to Leave Your Brother’ – by the boy band Geoffrey Jackson and the Governing Bodies.

          • The Raven

            LOL! I would PAY for that!

            • Burt Reynolds

              It’s free, along with Burt’s Book of Libel Stories. (Watchtower Edition. Ex Libris Legal Department).

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! This is freakin’ hilarious. Thank you, man. I needed a good laugh!

          • Beverly kenyon

            Literally crying laughing here Burt! ??? So very funny! I hope letter to the Mancunians are still in the Revised Edition.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Of course Beverly, along with Burt’s Letter to the Liverpudlians, and of course, Romanys.

            • Beverly kenyon

              ? Don’t know if the Romanys are gypsies.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Yes, I wandered that!

        • i feel similar things even now

          • Beverly kenyon

            Try not to DA. Don’t let things like that drag you down as life is hard enough as it is never mind having to deal with such things. Keep going DA and always thinking of you.

        • Huldah

          9 upvotes already that says something profound. Thanks to Burt too for bringing up the subject.

          Bev you hit the nail on the head.
          My husband and I often talk about taking back the “truth” as going back to an abuser.

          I had a friend who’s a psychology professor tell me “You ARE guilt.” She is right. My family sure started it, but as I compare myself to my sisters who aren’t witnesses, it was the years of exposure to the WTO that fed and grew the beast.

          I think it’s the sincere ones who the organization eats alive cause the insincere witnesses don’t seem to feel a tinge of guilt for anything they do.

          • Max

            Amen to that!!!

          • Burt Reynolds

            You sure got that right!

          • Beverly kenyon

            That’s a brilliant point Huldah…the insincere ones not feeling a tinge of guilt for anything they do. I know non witnesses who swan through life getting away with and doing things that are outrageous and they just don’t bother and care and that also applies to witnesses who are secure in their positions in KH’s and I don’t get how a person can just not care, they just don’t care! And they get away with it! A person try to do the right thing and that same person is viewed as a non entity and someone to be excluded and treated without any respect! I saw that happen to so many and I used to feel sick to my stomach and there were times I wanted to kick off with them but then I would’ve been the bad guy and classed as ‘worldly’ and ‘spiritually weak’. Even typing those words, those name calling is getting me mad! Sorry. Btw, it was Joseph who highlighted the guilt issue and I just wrote about how I felt as that word took me back to miserable times!

            • Huldah

              Yes I saw it was Joseph later. My phone is small so sometimes I miss things.

              Yes I know that sick feeling well. Lately it just seems to get worse and worse.

              I just watched the 1975 video on The Regional Convention. Friday afternoon last talk. The video is on Youtube.
              The talk and video just made me feel disturbed.
              I guess because it feels like they are blaming the brothers for getting stirred up about it and not taking responsibility for their part in it.

              I had hoped it would maybe be a sign that they were gonna throw away some other false prophecy and they were preparing us. Which to me would be hopeful.

              It was anticlimactic and general. I wonder what other s here think. Maybe Robert will comment on it.

            • Beverly kenyon

              In my opinion they should stay away from making videos as the hole they keep digging for themselves is getting bigger, in fact a real chasm. I would’ve thought they would’ve wanted to bury that whole embarrassing episode in the very hole they keep digging for themselves! But it’s like Max has pointed out, the soulless corporate ones who are running the show will churn out these disturbing videos, the corporate ones without any spirituality whatsoever will degrade and demean this organisation that bears Jehovah’s name and in turn make JW’s look like a bunch of hateful cranks! Huldah, they are going to from bad to worse, full on apostasy soon so why is an intelligent lady as yourself still clinging on to to the hope the gb and WT will change! Why?! Jehovah does not live there anymore, the MOL does, he’s completely established and at home, he’s in charge and we’re seeing the physical proof in what the WT is churning out and being more demanding of the witnesses but they like it that way as Jehovah himself says of them because you try to tell them different and reason with them you’re treated with disdain and if looks could kill then some of us on this site that have tried warning some of them, we’d be dead! They are completely deluded, not all, but the majority and only terror will make them understand. Take the example of Burt’s sister, he’s tried telling her real truth and she’s sneering, don’t wanna know. After everything you’ve read here on this site and you, an intelligent lady thinks they’re preparing you…for what? They’re clueless! They couldn’t direct themselves out of a paper bag as Jehovah has stopped up their ears and made them blind, they’re stumbling about like drunken men! Why do you still look to them for guidance? There’s no ‘hopeful’ regarding them, they’re on death row! Once trust has gone and you’ve been betrayed by the false prophets why would a clever person be ‘hopeful’ that ‘them’ would be preparing us. The org is corrupted and riddled with idolatry. The hiding of the lowest form of humanity, child rapists, paedophiles should alone tell you everything is wrong with that org. Where’s the justice for widows and orphans, sleeping with enemy for ten long years and then lying about it when found and all the rest of the disgraceful behaviour and you still look to them for preparation! The only preparation you’ll get off them is death! Some people come on this site and talk the talk but they just can’t let go of the brain washed adulation of men who have given themselves titles and the need to impress others in KH’s, they just can’t let it go, they have to worship what they can see and to find validation and praise from the ‘group think’ and the prominent ones in the halls and the acceptance. Why? Aren’t we suppose to worship Jehovah in Spirit and Truth, doesn’t scripture say, Jehovah wants ones like that?!

            • Richard Long

              “In my opinion they should stay away from making videos as the hole they keep digging for themselves is getting bigger, in fact a real chasm.”

              It’s almost like they cant help themselves…. like maybe they are being dragged to the edge of the canyon…hmmmmmm?

            • Huldah

              When people deliberately place themselves in a negative position I look for the hidden motivation.
              They are not opening up the 75 can of worms for no good reason.

              It could just be stupid pride cause they are sick of hearing about how they misled people. Maybe they think that everyone will believe a video.

              Maybe they think that if they blame the sheep in a video it is really their fault.
              Narcissists positioning.

              I was really hoping it was “Look we were wrong before and everyone got over it. So suck it up cause we got a doozy for you coming around the bend.”

            • The Raven

              THAT, would be something! But…I wouldn’t hold my breath.

            • Richard Long

              Bless you, Huldah for your hoping against hope, but I think that ship sailed with the ascension of Rutherford. Small comfort, I know, but as Robert has shown thoroughly, it has to be this way, as Jehovah has decreed it.

            • Huldah

              I woke up thinking about Isaiah and his question to Jehovah.

              “How long, Oh Jehovah?”
              The answer was, “Until the cities crash in ruins.”

              Isaiah 6
              10 ” Make the heart of this people unreceptive,+

              Make their ears unresponsive,+

              And paste their eyes together,

              So that they may not see with their eyes

              And hear with their ears,

              So that their heart may not understand

              And they may not turn back and be healed.”

              11 At this I said: “How long, O Jehovah?” Then he said:

              “Until the cities crash in ruins without an inhabitant

              And the houses are without people

              And the land is ruined and desolate;+”

              It will be by fire that they are cleansed. It will be a complete catastrophe that stops this madness in the organization.

              Even so, I still see flashes of light (dim though) and I still here whispers of righteousness (as though ‘whispering out of the dust’ (Is. 29:4 JPS) so I look for Jehovah, even in the darkest corners, because I know he’s still there and he blesses that effort.

            • Richard Long

              And, again, bless you for holding on to hope where many of us do not, will not, or can not! You complement us even as Jehovah completes us.

            • The Raven

              Does Jehovah call the org His or does He call individuals His? I don’t see any hope for the WTO as they have just about become part of BTG by their words and deeds. You might say He used them to preach the good news like he’s used other entities but that’s as far as it goes. Since virtually their beginnings they have been promoting this falsehood yet claim Christendom does this. Well, That brings me back to the fact that he searches hearts and minds. Not organizations or corporations. Their claims of being His exclusively as an organization are not as weighty as His claims that it is individuals that will attain salvation or destruction.
              Just my 2 cents worth on this.

            • Richard Long

              Your two cents carry all the weight of the widow’s “small coins of little value”!

              Jehovah said in Amos that the Israelites were the only family he had known in all the earth, in other words “His people”. If anointed Christians will make up the Israel of God, then they too are “His people”. The weeds sown among the wheat seem to be the architects of the very “Empire” like corporate body exercising control over the individuals making up the body of Jehovah’s people and claiming intellectual property rights over scriptural interpretations and enforcing a system of worship.

              With typical Israel, individuals abdicated their personal rights and responsibilities of a personal relationship with Jehovah, such as the one their forefathers enjoyed, to a system of worship. I’m over simplifying, but Jehovah supplied them with this system of worship, not as an ideal, but because after 400+ years in Egypt, culminating in harsh oppression, as a whole they were just too far removed from a healthy and proper understanding of their God to function. Even Moses, full of holy spirit, had to be adjusted constantly. The history of typical Israel shows repeatedly the paradox that the system of worship is to teach us how absurd the system of worship is in itself, and yet is necessary as an integral component in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose to restore paradise. Jehovah himself repeatedly tells us he is not interested in sacrifice, but sacrifice had become temporarily necessary for us both individually and as a body to show ourselves wanting to be in his “family”.

              This dynamic is currently repeating itself in the prophetic anti-typical Israel. Individual anointed ones whom, from the onset of the resumption of the anointing in these modern times have endeavored to know each other and form a body so that together they might accomplish the will of Jehovah, have been set upon by the man of lawlessness in a highly successful plot to compromise as many as they might. It was servants of Satan, men of lawlessness, that corrupted temple worship in typical Israel and men cut from the same cloth have corrupted the worship of those invited and hoping to become spiritual Israel. They have just used a modern, yet no less mystical than the temple, devise. Namely, the corporation.

              Understanding the paradox helps us to know the way we should walk, which is, if not independently of the system of worship, then in a state of readiness to be independent of it, as we know it is destined to be destroyed. In a nutshell, Jehovah’s Witnesses ARE “Jehovah’s people” and AT THE SAME TIME, we ARE (as a whole) apostate. Or, if you prefer, the body of anointed Christians are currently and have been since Russell, under the leadership of the man of lawlessness. Not to say specifically that Russell was MOL, but it is clear Jehovah was not the only person whispering in his ear, as was the case with Moses. Since Adam, competing influences are the state of affairs and such will be the case until Satan is destroyed. What man has ever been immune to them?

              Was there ever a prophet raised up that was not assigned to indict the corruption overpowering the very system of worship established by Jehovah Himself? Such is the case now with Robert and others similarly situated. He demonstrates the anti-typical spiritual Israel’s place as the loci of a system of worship in the fulfillment of prophesy while indicting the hypocrisy of the corporation’s corruption of the system of worship, including their unfounded boasting, which is also in fulfillment of prophesy.

              So, again, in my estimation, your opinion is as high in value as any, and surely, you are a man agreeable to Jehovah’s heart!

            • The Raven

              I was thinking more along these lines with that question:
              https://e-watchman.com/things-must-shortly-take-place/

              Especially at present time considering what we do know about this.

            • Richard Long

              I think I got there, just the scenic route? Salvation is most definitely an individual and personal pursuit that, thankfully, we can pursue alongside others. My opinion is that, unfortunately for the majority of humans, mass production is the only form of spiritual development they can handle at present. The initial refining process, if you will. Certainly was the case for me personally.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! Cool. That’s how all of us came to know the truth. Some stayed on. I left when things didn’t add up almost immediately. In fact you just made the same plea I did with Brian, if I recall. My main point was that the org has served its purpose and once that becomes evident to the rest, we stand before God not as WTO slaves, but as His people.

            • Richard Long

              Speaking of Brian, what do you make of him just leaving like that? I am still troubled that he made his exit as a reply to my comment. I honestly thought I was continuing a conversation, not ending one.

            • The Raven

              I think a little bit of finesse in that discussion may have made for a better outcome.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. Just needed to hear someone say it.

            • The Raven

              Richard, I think you are one of the most engaging, thoughtful and intelligent men I have had the pleasure of speaking with on the net. I have met some fine folks here. Some freakin funny ones too and I love a good laugh! It will all work out. Don’t sweat it man.

            • Richard Long

              Thank you, and I’m glad you have met BC. Your two minds, particularly the confident steadiness you both exude, combined with all the other fine minds of good-hearted people here are a force to be reckoned with in advancing TTATT. Robert is a blessing to us, and hopefully we are all a blessing to him.

            • The Raven

              Amen. 🙂

            • Burt Reynolds

              You were just a catalyst Richard to a cause and mindset unspecified. It could, and would have been anyone that disagreed with him at that time. The action springs from the same source as the ideology of the witnesses. If someone opposes ( does not agree….it’s the same thing in this scenario ), the act of disagreement destabilises the belief system of the individual, because it is not based on (biblical) fact., but personal interpretation of that fact, and thus cannot be proved in the face of opposition. This results in a conflict of mind for the individual that cannot be resolved. The witnesses excuse, justify, their withdrawal by claiming the ‘cannot get anywhere with …….so and so….thus it is their choice, they have explained the ‘truth’ of the matter, they will die. They are wrong. As with the witnesses, they either have to admit they are wrong and thus disrupt their entire belief system, or, far easier, withdraw and blame and denounce their victim in justification of the lie. One should not blame Brian for this course of action and certainly not yourself. Brian had a lot of insight and I am sure come the tribulation he will be helped visually far better than you or others could help him through verbal reasoning. I am sure he will recover his composure. You were simply the right person at the right time, but at the wrong time for Brian. He will come round I’m sure. We cannot all get it right all at once. I don’t.

            • Richard Long

              I admit trying to get a fix on where he was coming from was extremely difficult and I also admit feeling like the sick gazelle targeted by the hunting cheetah as he was clearly exploiting my uncertainty to facilitate discussion of some of his “out there” notions. But not with evil intent like Francis. I will in the future take Raven’s advice of more finesse and less blunt force. And I sincerely hope Brian returns that I may personally apologize for my less than empathetic treatment.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I can understand your feelings, and they do you credit, but it honestly was not what you said. Anyone could have done it. You’re right about the uncertainty bit, but only in that it was used by Brian to express his frustration. That affects us all. I’m even uncertain as to what to have for lunch, let alone expand with confidence things written in the bible.

            • Beverly kenyon

              As you know Richard, I really liked Brian and I liked his reasoning and I’m a bit gutted that he went but listen to Burt’s advice as he’s right. You were just continuing the discussion but I think Brian just thought I don’t want to continue harping on so I’m off. Brian’s a straight up guy and wouldn’t be taking anything personally. Just wanted to also say, that is so lovely of you to say those really nice words concerning Brian. You have a good heart Richard and like many here on this site you’re a real and true gent!

            • The Raven

              When the discussion reached a point where he was beginning to go from a failing defense to offense and kept using the WTO club to hammer away I began asking him what he believed versus what he did not believe. This was an easier route. Notice he kept harping on about the WTO even though I repeatedly told him we are not discussing this from their view point. We are doing this from scripture, independent what the wto say, it went downhill from there. He probably felt, as you say Burt, that he could not defend his position and began to behave like he was under attack. I wasn’t expecting Richard’s comment. I must admit it shocked me and I waited for the fallout. I was still expecting an answer to our questions when he left. But it was predictable. Many here would have stepped up and delivered a rebuttal had they been confronted with that, but not Brian. He is probably processing this and noodling over it and given time may see things a little differently …or not. His choice.
              The thing is, his beliefs are not very different from ours with a few standouts; emblems and completely rejecting everything the WTO has ever said or done, even though much of it is supported by scripture. We all know what the major exceptions are. Robert and many others here have been showing us.
              That wto hammer will only take anyone so far. There does come a point where you must put it down and build from God’s word. Maybe he will see that. I hope so.

            • There is condition, a state of mind known as disbelief. It doesn’t matter what line of reasoning is used upon them, or how much evidence is presented, no amount of persuasion will work – the disbelieving person will not be moved.

              Some people imagine that seeing is believing. Apparently that is not true. Take the apostles for example. They witnessed virtually all of Christ’s miracles. They witnessed him walk on the sea, calm a storm, expel demons, raise the dead, open the eyes of the blind and many other things. Yet even after Jesus miraculously appeared to them after his resurrection the account in Matthew 28:17 says that “some doubted.” Incredible! And these guys were the apostles!

              Never doubt the virtually unlimited capacity of the darkened human heart to hide from the light

            • The Raven

              True and thank you.

            • Richard Long

              Robert, this forum is an extension of you home. I want to belong here without making you ashamed for my attendance. At the same time, some of the thing said here just really get me in a twist, all the more so given my vulnerable state as one so recently removed from the delusion. Were there some behavior modifications you might prefer me to make, please discuss them here publicly for the benefit of all, or privately if you choose. rlong9000@gmail.com

            • Just a word of correction: This isn’t a forum. This is my blog and people comment on posts I make. There is a discussion forum, but it is rarely used. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

              But know, I am not ashamed of you or anyone else.

            • The Raven

              Chill out bro. You’re ok. We get enough beatings in life as it is. You want more? 🙂

            • Richard Long

              I want to be corrected where necessary, free where possible? I promise, I will never allow a beating.

            • The Raven

              LOL!

            • Richard Long

              Ok, other than the self- flagellation, that is.

            • The Raven

              LOL!
              May Jehovah bless you and everyone here who seeks Him!

            • Richard Long

              Not excusing the shock value of my comment, Raven, as I wish to stumble no one, but in the weeks leading up to your arrival, Brian had me chasing my tail. I literally have the makings of two or three essays half finished in effort to either refute his positions or try to make him clarify his. I have NEVER had to work that hard to solidify or express my defense of my faith, and in that, I really owe him an enormous debt of gratitude. I am learning that most here, especially Robert, do not need my help to defend the truth on their behalf. I think I will take a cue from Robert, as he just let’s the discussion take place organically until/unless it crosses whatever boundaries he ha in mind. No need for me to be Peter lopping of the ear of the chief priests attendant, right?

            • The Raven

              Like I stated, I did not know what the relationship was between folks here or the history. It doesn’t matter to me. They can either defend their positions or not. I do not assume to know what their thoughts or ideas are until they say so. It goes from there.
              There seem to be several viewpoints here. One throws everything the wto has said or done away and uses that to support their own erroneous ideas. That position is indefensible. Others ignore most of what the wto says or does. That may be a coping mechanism for those who have been hurt. Still others choose to examine them and expose through careful study and Robert’s guidance how this affects us all. I am in that group.
              Why do we continue to do this? Because it is through evidence and reasoning that people’s condition is laid bare.

            • Richard Long

              I too, am trying to emulate Robert’s approach, in my own clumsy and not yet mature way.

            • The Raven

              Richard, I’ve read everyone’s comments since I arrived, not before. I was impressed with the depth of insight and lively discourse on many topics. Yours included. I was also glad to see that people’s own words make or break them and that’s how we learn. Robert allows this to happen until we reach a point where further discussion which devolves into argument, becomes futile, as the blind will not see. I agree with him. I thank him for this venue. People drawn here are pretty high caliber, IMHO.

            • Richard Long

              Right. This is not what we’re accustomed to at the KH. It really takes some time for those of us new to freedom of expression to get used to.

            • The Raven

              I understand and the comments here make that very plain to see. But be assured that as the blinders and fetters are removed your spirit will rejoice.

            • Jesus spoke to the congragations during the days of Jehovah. – Rev

              what they give to him belongs to him.

              Zec 2:7 “Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon.

            • The Raven

              Being part of Jehovah’s house does not assure salvation for all of them.

            • nope, it does not

            • The Raven

              I don’t think too many jws understand that. At least, not the ones I’ve spoken to.

            • Joseph S.

              The Watchtower has convinced Jehovah’s Witnesses that they are living in the post-judgment period and are now secure in the prophesied predator-free spiritual paradise and that even the evil slaves have already been debarred from the house of God. That belief tends to spiritually disarm the unwary.
              https://e-watchman.com/coming-fall-house-god/

            • The Raven

              You’re right. But I never pressed it with them. It was pointless to show them what they would not see. But I’M the wicked one!

            • The Raven

              Something else stood out to me from way back in a discussion I had with some brothers concerning the bride. They told me that not all of them would be in heaven when the final war broke out. They claimed that some would still be here on earth. I said that was not possible. I maintained the anointed would have to die and they would return with Christ at Armageddon. This verse was one of those I pointed out to them.
              From the article you posted:
              Ultimately, the killing of the sons of the kingdom justifies Heaven’s retaliation. Thus, Zechariah 14:5 indicates that all of the 144,000 holy ones are in heaven before Armageddon. That verse reads: “And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him.”

              They told me they would have to ask Bethel about it. I never got a reply.

            • Richard Long

              we choke on our dogma while swearing we don’t have any and jeering the Romans for theirs!

            • The Raven

              I take it you mean them? Right? lol
              It’s not the first time they told me that. But it’s been a long time since I’ve been able to ask them questions which required Bethel’s guidance. After what Max said about that, I understand why.

            • Richard Long

              Yes. Technically, I am still them, so….”we”

            • Richard Long

              That is the brainwashing we have allowed to overtake us. “spiritual paradise…. spiritual paradise…. spiritual paradise….we take checks and endowments…. spiritual paradise…”

            • The Raven

              Sometimes I found myself tuning out to their strange explanations, wondering where was Rod Serling to help me understand another episode of the twilight zone?
              At first I thought it was me and that, as they insisted…I did not have the right attitude or condition of heart. But facts kept slapping me upside my head!

            • Richard Long

              I can only say that for myself, the sheer gratitude for being given the basic truth – the name and personality of God, the distinct identity and role of Jesus, the kingdom and paradise restored – bought those who brought it to me an enormous credit line of blind faith. Since I knew – ABSOLUTELY KNEW – the basic truth was present with the org, and no other source on earth (perception, albeit limited) I was willing to wait for the murky stuff to clear up in “God’s own time”. I think that speaks more to who I am and where I have come from as an individual, all of which can be a complete mystery even to self without self exploration and examination, these things being somewhat of a luxury in this troubled word. Some people, and I am one, can suspend disbelief compartmentally when required to function in untenable circumstances. The reality of this makes fools of even very smart people, as intellect is not the only driver of our experience.

              Lets just say that perhaps individuals with your original mindset begin their spiritual evolution a little further along the path to maturity than do individuals with my original mindset. Add environment and influences and we have a spectrum of outcomes, all still works in progress, at various points in that progression. Even Adam, an individual created perfect, embodied “the humanity project”, a work still under development until the project was contaminated by one of its observers who became an unauthorized participant, necessitating suspension of the project until the specified environment for the project could be restored. The later phases of “the humanity project” – namely family, society and civilization – developed outside the original specified parameters with predictable but undesirable results.

              So, I’d say that coming to the realization that spirituality is an individual and personal pursuit, starting from widely varying places along the route but leading us all unique individuals to the same place is half of the battle. Some of us start in the Mississippi, some the Ohio or the Missouri, some in the major tributaries, some in the minor, and some in the remotest headwaters, but all are headed to the gulf and all will still be unique individuals upon arrival.

            • The Raven

              The fact that I could not get with their program worried me in my younger days. I saw folks a lot smarter and older than me in it and that worried me even more. I boiled it down to the idea that He may have different paths for all of us too. That’s why I was good with not accepting everything they said. Still am. That’s also another reason why I did not try too hard to argue the points with them. I always felt a restraint in those matters. Since reading Robert’s work…I know why.

            • Richard Long

              Black Curtain, who is a legal professional, will tell you that when writing a interoffice memorandum or brief, the researcher will evaluate the weight of a precedent case’s influence over the court in his own case by asking himself the question: “is it enough?”

              Even without legal training, and having come to accepting the basic truth, in consideration of all the evidence presented in the literature regarding the invisible parousia, I remember having the discussion with myself: “Uh… I dunno, that doesn’t really seem like a GREAT tribulation…. maybe a big tribulation….. I mean if you are In Europe then, maybe, but in the US not so much…my grandma was born in 1910 and she says the war never really affected her….” stuff like that. And Robert has shown plainly that the WT’s exegesis is often trite and self-serving whitewashing on graves.

              So, when you were at that crossroads, the distinct person you are said “I’ll buy the horse, but I have my own tack, so discount the price and we have a deal”. When I was at that crossroads, the distinct person I am said “I’ll buy the horse, with the tack and I’ll pay full price if you throw in riding lessons we have a deal”

              That’s the only way I can understand it. It just is what it is. Time and circumstance, acceptance and endurance.

            • The Raven

              LOL! I like these analogies you make a great deal. Burt’s very good at this too but in a polished proper English gentlemen sort of way!
              Thanks, man!

            • Richard Long

              Thank you. I’d say I’m helped at least as much buy the working out if it in my head as the person most helped by reading it, so thank you for the opportunity to express it.

            • The Raven

              It does help me a lot in understanding these things when I have people’s experiences as a testament to the struggle to remain faithful no matter what.

            • Burt Reynolds

              That’s a good way of looking at it…..myself, I would have them throw in the feed and stabling along with the mucking out, vetinary assistance and a nice relaxing rub down at the end of the day.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Have a look at that subliminal picture article that Ken posted. It’s truely wonderous what is going n in the watchtower. Some of those pictures simply could not have been thought up by a human mind. Very troubling.

            • The Raven

              Some look deliberate. But some look to be simply the kaleidoscope effect. I’ve seen that before with mundane pics.

            • Burt Reynolds

              It was never spiritual paradise in my mind…punnishement, yes, but I never say the fruits of it….brotherhood, love, care, understanding, yielding, compassion…only ever intolerance and dominance. I’ve had enough of that in my life. I just wish it would all end.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Such an arguement gives weight to the thinking that baptism is/could be thought of, as being of the heart and still be valid.

            • The Raven

              I agree. The blood of Christ washed away our sins. The water and spirit are a sign of our being born again.

            • The Raven

              I’d be willing to venture a guess as to what the flashes of light and whisperings you are sensing really are: The truly honest followers of Jehovah who remain in the trenches just like the Jews of old burdened by the Pharisees and Sanhedrin yearning for relief and salvation.

            • Richard Long

              Wasn’t ignoring you, just muling this over for awhile.

              I might also add that Robert has repeatedly reminded us that the WT itself is not our enemy, only the MOL currently in control of it. Just as the seven congregations of Revelation were in various states of spiritual health or disrepair, so might we find those we attend. And sister Thinking has ardently reminded us they are still God’s house until such time as His Son arrives and makes his final appointments. Do not allow us to stand between you and your hearts desire to be where the holy Spirit resides. Your congregation will be what it will be. Only you can determine by means of your​ conscience if attendance upbuilds or tears down your faith. It is your faith to protect nurture and grow, and this is an inherently personal and individual endeavor, but, thankfully, one you may pursue alongside others. Your path forward, given your great desire to be in Jehovah’s house, may be in the management of your expectations? No?

              We both know I tend to be snarky about the WT, but then we also both know why. Namely, the newness of my awakening, the fresh, raw ulcers of betrayal, anf, if I’m honest

            • Huldah

              Can’t imagine a more loving humble and insightful comment coming from any elder I know. Had a rough day so extra big thanks for all the sincere interest in my well being that comes through.

              I feel like I’m getting new wounds on top of old wounds with no time in between to heal.

              I think I’m reigning in my expectations but I have too many past proofs of Jehovah’s direct hand in my life to see him as someone who is not personally involved and willing to act.

              I agree with what Thinking has said about going to the meetings but I am also deeply disturbed by the strongly entrenched apostasy that permeates the meetings and literature.

              The brothers in the forties had the Natzis we have the MOL. It’s just another form of test.

              I still believe Jehovah is using the organization to teach the basic truth, but he’s also allowing Satan to use it to test us.

              Talk about a ‘house divided against itself’.

            • Richard Long

              Sorry about the rough day, Huldah. Keep sharing as it is nothing short of inspirational the way you manage to keep on keeping on!

              “about going to the meetings but I am also deeply disturbed by the strongly entrenched apostasy that permeates the meetings and literature.”

              This is my dilemma. I can honestly see myself choking whenever the words “1914” or “faithful and discreet slave” are mentioned and if the price for paradise is dutifully highlighting my magazine, well…. that’s just too high a price to pay!. I’m afraid I’m just too entrenched in my recalcitrance.

            • Huldah

              We are definitely fighting similar battles.

              I understand what you mean about ‘highlighting your magazine being too high a price to pay’. These rituals they’ve set up for us to earn everlasting life become like a bait that draws us into the net and positions us for the stabs of disturbing apostasies.

              I hate the rituals. They turn true christians into zombies.

              Thanks for being a blessing today.

            • Huldah

              Hi again.
              I happened upon this scripure. Thought it was appropriate.

              Zeph. 3 Notice especially vs 5
              New Living Translation

              Jerusalem’s Rebellion and Redemption

              1What sorrow awaits rebellious, polluted Jerusalem,

              the city of violence and crime!

              2No one can tell it anything;

              it refuses all correction.

              It does not trust in the Lord

              or draw near to its God.

              3Its leaders are like roaring lions

              hunting for their victims.

              Its judges are like ravenous wolves at evening time,

              who by dawn have left no trace of their prey.

              4Its prophets are arrogant liars seeking their own gain.

              Its priests defile the Temple by disobeying God’s instructions.

              5But the Lord is still there in the city,

              and he does no wrong.

              Day by day he hands down justice,

              and he does not fail.

              But the wicked know no shame

              Not seeing much justice I admit but the verse is verifying what I had said earlier. Jehovah is still there.

            • Richard Long

              Which is why the more I dwell on this, I’m growing more and more appreciation for those who can, despite the added “burden” of knowing TTATT, remain in attendance. Robert sets a fine example, too, in carefully directing his indictments at “the leading men” of the WT.

              I’ve come to see those activists in the ExJW camp as sincere but severely misguided and playing into the adversary’s hands. They want to help us, but if we let them, they help us right into Gehenna. In my opinion, the honest broker, having become convinced of the WT deception, has only two logical courses to choose from – atheism or reconciliation. At least, that’s the crossroads where I stood.

              Robert and others similarly situated show us not only that we were misled, but how, and by whom, and further, our own participation in the deception, and also the way to reconciliation by helping us to see and understand the paradox of the true faith in apostasy and the clearer view of the prophetic scriptures adjusted by removal of the delusion.

              In my opinion, if this is not a gift from Jehovah, then there are no gifts from Jehovah!

            • The Raven

              This is why it’s so important not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Not to turn our backs on the truth that we learned through them even though we know what’s in store for the MOL and God’s house. Even reasoning from a position of discounting everything the WTO has said leads right back to the truth EVERY TIME. It is undeniable.
              Some attack them from their hatred and bitterness and that’s wrong. Easy for the devil to flank them. Robert has exposed them because he loves Jehovah, Jesus Christ, his brothers and truth. Huge difference.
              When I was first approached with this within minutes of listening to a brother decades agoI felt like I had an epiphany. It ALL made sense and I could even remember feeling like I had just been given access to a part of my brain off limits to me before. It was stunning. And frightening at the same time. I KNEW it was right.
              But as I learned more I ran into that roadblock of false prophecy and unscriptural conditions and found myself astonished that they could get so much so right and so much so wrong!
              It wasn’t until I began reading up on this and searching… especially Robert’s site that I could understand WHY. And that knowledge was equally as stunning!
              Some folks search scripture to weasel their way out of doing what we should. Others look FOR ways to follow Him. I think most folks here are of that mind.
              I still have a great love and respect for those who remain at the KH, but I also worry about them. I can’t help that. I pray for all of us in these times. I know Jehovah’s decisions are right and true.

            • Richard Long

              Well said! It is the WT “either/or” conditioning that prompts us to conform to a “template” of a “life of worship”, but talk about PROOF of our (JW) unique mirroring of typical Israel.

              I used to be the person who would consider the Israelites and say “How could they be such blockheads?” At the point where I progressed to “We are doing everything we indict Christendom for doing” I faded into the woodwork, unable to preach, my freedom of speech impeded, really by my own conscience, only I did not recognize this to be the situation. I chose, instead to internalize the doubt, reasoning, or more appropriately, acquiescing to the WT’s projection of its “template” onto me, that I was simply not paradise material.

              I suppose many similarly situated persons will and do, at that point, react on a spectrum from the most torrid emotions to the calmest reasoning, with obviously widely varying outcomes. I for one, am so grateful I landed here!

            • The Raven

              Richard quote:
              ” I chose, instead to internalize the doubt, reasoning, or more appropriately, acquiescing to the WT’s projection of its “template” onto me, that I was simply not paradise material.”

              I saw this in others. I couldn’t understand it at first. But that was because I had no room for anything but intense study into prophecy. That’s when my troubles began. That’s when I began tripping breakers. How could something so wonderful make people so miserable? Then I found out. But not everyone left for the same reasons as I. Many were turned off by the numerous meetings and examination and mind numbing rote. Yet they felt bad. They did the same thing you have. They internalized this and began to feel like they were failures.
              Surely this isn’t what Jesus meant, was it? Did Jehovah really want us to accept lies as a way to gain entrance into the kingdom? But the truth will set you free? Peculiar indeed.
              I would not engage JWs who spoke with me in matters of prophecy because I was not certain about the nature of the error. They constantly said that God allows them for a reason therefore we must overlook them.
              Uh..no. I knew lies when I saw them but… what was truth?
              We all came to this from different experiences but the result was the same. We are here. We saw reasoning and truth in Robert’s words and that should tell you something. God does work in mysterious ways. I can’t think this is anything but directed and supported. And yes. I’m glad and grateful to be here too!

            • Richard Long

              And emphasis on the fact that I/we choose this course, probably because it is the only one we see in the moment, but just as the WT must take responsibility for the lie, I/we must take responsibility for believing the lie? No?

            • The Raven

              If we know its a lie. Like the first century Christians. Many were ignorant of what was happening. In time this will be revealed as well. Then, we will see.

            • The Raven

              But also keep in mind that there is a correction coming. Most JWs have been misled and it is their leaders that will bear the brunt of that correction. Those who know the truth and remain do so in spite of it all as Paul did. From what I understand Jehovah knows who His people are no matter where we are as long as we do what Christ told us to do. WTO or not.

            • The Raven
            • Richard Long

              I think you would have me take from the article that taking responsibility for believing the lie, even perpetuating it in the past, may very well obligate one to work as they may to undo the damage done? We perhaps do this by resumed evangelism but with the unvarnished truth in hand, by reasoning with those related in the faith who may listen?

            • The Raven

              I don’t see any evidence that we can undo any of the damage. That is not our job. That belongs to Jehovah. Even Robert at this time, has limited success with this and he has been exposing them for years. From what I can gather we should be more concerned with our own spiritual condition. Those who are interested and approach us for more information should not be lied to. But I would not actively seek out JWs to “convert”. Robert has maintained that although they are led by the MOL and have done evil things they are still the house of God.
              He is of the view that people who are in, should remain in.
              This is a very awkward situation many of us struggle with. I have ample reason to believe that folks like us who are conscious of our spiritual need sought spiritual food from a better source than the WTO.
              We are simply ahead of this. There will come a day when we are told to get out of Babylon. This is a situation unlike the times of old. He knows his sheep.
              I never lost my faith even when men failed me. I think in the end, that’s all any of us will have. Trust in Jehovah.

            • Richard Long

              Yeah, I meant that on a personal level. As in, if we had personally introduced someone to the deluded truth, perhaps we might be obligated to set the record straight in those instances. Also , maybe with our children? I guess we’d have to evaluate each instance to determine if we would do more harm than good in red-pilling them? And then, beyond that, just move forward in our more accurate understanding.

            • The Raven

              Yes. I would. I think each person will react to this according to their own understanding and faith. We can’t know what the ultimate affect will be. I started with my family and friends. They took it from there.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Now that’s a conundrum. Not seek to preach to the witnesses because they are in Jehovah’s house. That’s quite a conflict. They have truth, but do not. They are lied to and told the truth. They should stay in the watchtower but get out of it. They should stay loyal to Jehovah but stay LOYAL to Jehovah. We know but they don’t have to know. We have found out. They have yet to find out that they have the truth but not all the truth. Does it come down to helping only if they ask? Then how are they to know? What are we to do with the figurative Talants we have been giving? Speak only to the uninlightened? This is serious stuff! Time to break out the teapot and the Battenburgh cake and mull it all over.

            • The Raven

              Jehovah allows it. That’s the problem. How far can we go before we are in direct opposition to him? That’s the one thing I have trouble with, Burt. Robert says we should expose this and teach others just how bad this is. But once that is done I can fully expect people to leave the wto. Yet he believes they should remain because they are God’s people and He will make it right.
              I have a hard time with that too.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I have been thinking and eating cake! I think Robert has a point. The watchtower, as did the temple, belong to Jehovah . I’m not sure that Jesus went to the temple simply to preach to the congregants. He seems to have gone there also to discuss with the priests the issues pertinent to them, and to discuss learning or theology, when he was a child. He seems to have done his preaching mostly in the open.

              Should we expect congregants to listen to us in the Kingdom Hall? I wouldn’t think so. If one looks at the ex JW activists who try various stunts inside halls, they do nothing more than confirm persecution and thus (self) righteousness among the congregants, along with their reward of hollow kudos for ‘enduring’ it.

              Nothing I can say to my sister changes her mind. Maybe that is an example of what to expect. It just reinforces her opinion of my apostasy, perhaps just as it does so for Robert and the elders that try to gain fame by reeling him back in. If they will not listen to one such as he with such insight, then my faint blitherings won’t even make a ripple.

              Then there is the issue of vengeance which belongs to Jehovah. If we poach converts to the truth, then we deminish his right to vindication. It is not as though he has not made this provision of the watchtower. It is his right to show his people who he is. Not only is it not our right, but when I think about it, how could I, why should I, compete in Reflecting his righteousness and judgement in these issues by drawing people away to me, even if I have the truth of the matter in my head? That’s just laughable. And it not what the figurative Talants were for, is it. They were to enlighten those who do not know. Witnesses do know. Robert pointed out the fact that the watchtower does preach the basic truth; enough therefore for people to know the issues of faith and the issues of truth and compare and validate both in their own minds when the time comes.

              Thus, I have to agree with Robert on this issue. It seems to me in the principles laid down by Christ that we take the word to the people so that they can be informed to make a stand for the principles of Jehovah. That seems to be contained in the basics give us from the bible by the watchtower. Therefore it is enough. Now the witnesses already have that, and so there is room to believe that we should not usurp that balance that Jehovah has set. Instead, we should be doing our best to construct that balance in those who do not know of it and are not aware of it.

              So what of those who sense the wrongdoing in the ‘Temple’ and start to leave? The activists who leave with nowhere to go, and no residue of faith/understanding, seek to bring down the watchtower. They believe that is right. And it is! But not for them to do, but Jehovah. So they are loosing out because they have not thought it through.

              Some of Those that do waken up to the lie, do not it seems, necessarily go on to loose their faith in Jehovah. They still recognise the creator. At least, that was my experience and it seems to be so for many others.

              The scriptures say though, that Jehovah will not test us beyond what we can endure, and that he will provide a way out. I have often wondered what this catch-all site is for, as have others, along with those sites like it. Would it not be reasonable therefore to assume that Jehovah would lovingly provide a watering hole to sustain those that find themselves shoved out into the desert plains and away from the temple, rather than just loose those who still love him but see the corruption in said temple? Maybe we are simply privileged for retaining our faith, to have a glimpse of the promised land and to know that there is hope, and there is truth. That’s nice to think.

              Well, that’s my reasoning and the best I can produce via a cup of tea and a slice of Battenburgh cake, Raven. It’s what tea-time is for. I’m not saying the above is correct, but you wouldn’t come up with that over a Bud Light now, would you!

            • The Raven

              Very well thought out and thank you. Seems we think alike, Burt. Look at my comments as well. And just so you know I’ve been sitting here with coffee and peanut butter and chocolate cookies . Too early for beer.

            • The Raven

              Especially the part about poaching from his house. That’s why I never went hunting for them and did not engage those who adamantly stuck to the script. It was beyond me even before I understood why. I knew it sounded bad to say it was not our responsibility to “set things right” but that is in fact His task. Not ours.
              I feel almost as a spectator in these things. Only when I do have the opportunity to teach those who are willing to hear do I present the truth. But for the most part I have stuck to the basics. Just as most jws have. And I agree that we are still his people and he knows this as long as we keep our faith.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I feel much the same, a spectator. Not only to events, but to myself. Like a disembodiment. ‘What if it’s not true!?’ But then I look at creation and think there must be a creator. Then the tribulation…not in my lifetime? Will it ever come? Then I think that even if the were no tribulation, this world would end itself soon anyway, or turn into some Mad Max scenario. Then I think I just can’t handle it, then, that I can. Then to escape from the mental turmoil, I go and sit in the garden, or turn on a repeat of Perry Mason and anaesthetise myself completely. There are not a lot of tools in the box for coping with the paradox, only a large tube of faith, a box of ears, and a set of eyes and a rather large book of history and prophesy.

            • The Raven

              I’m with you, man.

            • Richard Long

              I’m with you, with Burt!

            • The Raven

              Oh and something else…not only do some of these ex jws lose their faith, some of them lose their freakin minds! I can’t even haunt some of those sites because the vitriol is too deep. There is no reasoning with folks who attack from the depths of hatred.

            • Joseph S.

              Wait till the rest realize the lies………
              Going to get REAL ugly.
              I’m thankful Jehovah heard my cries in the wilderness and led me here for understanding! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d388c1ab7af9940cd603f7774e58dd0428b45e901e8c2e62a8b17767cc88b3dc.jpg

            • The Raven

              Amen. It certainly has helped me a great deal.

            • KB

              Very true statement.

            • Richard Long

              Very well reasoned. It is sometimes hard to remember that the only decision we have to make today is to be prepared to make our decision when called to do so during the parousia.
              Any efforts to comfortably “package” in our minds an adjusted doctrine and dogma, no matter how accurately adjusted, are likely to fail. The times call for us to be considering and reconsidering these matters daily, at least for those of us with our particular kind of spiritual need. I think that is the common denominator for the most of us here. Our spiritual need, for better or worse, is somehow different than our brothers that remain in the delusion. Am I right to perceive that spiritual needs come in about as many flavors as there are personalities and Jehovah has made provision for all of them, through Robert rather than the WT in our cases?

            • Burt Reynolds

              I agree. I think you’re right. Looking at the scriptural issues here has started me looking at why they are written so, and not simply what is said of them. Often it is obvious. Other times it opens a whole new vista, rather like a ‘spider’ diagram.

            • Huldah

              If you keep talking of proper English tea and such mysterious delicacies as Battenburgh cake ( I’ll Google it later . )
              I may have to cash in my American Airlines frequent flyer miles and impose myself upon a spare bedroom ( assuming you have one or a couch would suffice).

              I’m a foodie and although I grew up in a town with an English muffin factory (Thomas’s English Muffins)
              and have even made crumpets from scratch, I’m sure a proper English tea tastes better in England.

              As far as cakes with regal names go…
              Round here we have a tasty treat called “dump cake” (not anything like cow pies) but I bet that doesn’t make you wanna hop on a plane.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Etiquette for ‘Afternoon Tea’ ( not to be confused with high tea, which is a meal working classes had at the end of the day) .
              Tea first, not milk. To put milk in first is to cross the path of love.
              Hostess always pours. ( unless the butler or under butler is in attendance).
              Spoon never stays in cup.
              Use both hands to raise the cup. No pinkies.
              Savouries first (when eating from a tray), scones next, sweets last.
              According to Debrett’s, one would split the scone horizontally.
              If eating tea in Devon, the clotted cream is placed on first, then the preserves. In Cornwall, t’other way round.
              Use fingers for bite size pastries. Break pieces of bread from the slice of bread, if eating such, before consuming, use dessert fork for larger pastries.
              Never dunk treats in your tea.
              Formal afternoon dress to be worn.
              Besides the traditional cream scones, one might like to find small ham sandwiches or cucumber sandwiches, chocolate cake, rich fruit cake (Dundee cake might be appreciated), Battenburgh (of course), chocolate cup cakes or iced ‘fancies’.
              Tea: with or without milk, sugar before lemon if such is desired. Earl grey, Jasmin or suitable black tea.
              Bone china cups and silverware.
              If served on the lawn, suitable shade should be provided.
              (Clearly, even in this modern day, such heresy as a tea bag would not be in evidence. The (silver) teapot would of course be warmed gently before the tea is made).
              Ask your cook to make a home made Battenburgh for you. Don’t send your kitchen maid to a baker. It’s just not done. At the very worst dire emergency, have your baker call at the kitchen door discreetly.

            • Richard Long

              Mother of Pearl!!!! Please direct me to the nearest Starbucks drive-thru! That’s not an afternoon repast, it’s a religious observance!

            • Huldah

              One tea with me and I fear I would be banished from the kingdom (United Kingdom) That is.

              Spoon is perpetually in cup. So much so that it is a pet peeve of my husband.
              Pinky inevitability pops up upon holding a tea cup. Can’t stop it.

              My OCD prevents me from having a cup of tea within a ten mile radius of a cookie without subjecting it to a dunk.

              Alas how far we Americans have fallen from our British roots.
              I blame it on Oreo.

              Question
              Is the name United States a play on United Kingdom? Like ” We are our own states you subject yourself to a controlling king, hah ha”.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Poor hubby! Having to put up with the spoon in the cup. I think the initial uniting of the States of America has little to do with Britain. The English slaughtered the Scots and the Welsh, starved the Irish to death and ignored the Cornish. We robbed, pillaged, taxed and enslaved the whole place and are still doing it today. I suppose the States could have got that idea from us…..either that or you’re learning fast. As for the royal family, I think they open parliament now and again, and visit disaster areas but other than that, not a lot….and we have to pay millions for them in allowances while our poor go homeless and hungry.

            • Joseph S.

              You are so right Mr B.

              https://youtu.be/7e7QAmRc5Ic

            • Richard Long

              “United Kingdom of…” first used in used in 1800/01, therefore a play on United States, not the reverse!

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_formation_of_the_United_Kingdom

            • The Raven

              Endurance. Very interesting word. That just struck a chord and resonated with me when you wrote:
              “they do nothing more than confirm persecution and thus (self) righteousness among the congregants, along with their reward of hollow kudos for ‘enduring’ it.”

              I can’t help but wonder who endures what in this. The jws constantly say that they endure much to bring the truth to folks. That is true to some extent. But what of the devastated ones they have left in their wake due to the influence of the MOL? Have they too not endured a litany of abuses, mental anguish, psychological trauma, pedophilia, unjust indictments, disfellowshipping for questionable reasons, clothes-lining potential followers etc?

              It seems the MOL wants to own not only all Jehovah’s followers but also the very definition of long suffering and faith. Why not? He has certainly put himself in the seat of God and has begun judging already.

              Even non believers know the golden rule. Do unto others etc.
              They have put aside even that in their blind obedience to the wto. I see endurance and faith even among those who the wto has abandoned, abused and destroyed. Not all have crawled off to spit and rail at Jehovah for the disgraceful deeds of the wto. I must believe that God in his wisdom and mercy hears us as well.
              Just my two pence on this. 🙂

            • Huldah

              I keep thinking of Anna and Simeon. They were old so they had endured years of Pharisaical abuse I’m sure. They were among the few blessed with recognizing the baby Messiah and their names are recorded in the Bible. Righteous ones. How did they stay involved with such a corrupt system and not go insane?
              Are we to be Polyannas or, to bring it into modern terms, Spongebob’s.
              Relentlessly determined to focus on the positive despite the negative qualifying as abuse (ie Squidward)?
              Occasionally, I subject myself to the deprecating idea that it is a lack of humility on my part, but then I remember all the witnesses I have watched fall apart at the first small sign of injustice that touches them personally.
              They sell out in one way or the other to get instant relief.

              My answer today is that this knowledge, TTATT, is it’s own sort of test of endurance. The great pain of knowing the cruel corruption of the org and yet still clinging to the truth it is founded on. It is nothing short of Jacab wrestling with the angel for a blessing.
              I have to ask the question. Is it a less cruel concentration camp, when you suffer a daily mental torture and yet do not even have the relief of believing yourself a good person in that you are suffering for the sake of righteousness. That may be the single worst thing the WTO has stolen from us.

              I think of the Philadelphia congregation. Rev. 3:10
              10 Because you kept the word about my endurance,*+ I will also keep you from the hour of test,+ which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

              Is this special endurance we are now showing, the price we pay as if a ticket of admission to the ‘secret place’ of God where we are protected from compromise in the ‘ hour of test’?

              I still don’t know if I am now passing or if not what I need to do to pass this test of endurance.

            • The Raven

              This brings me back to the situation with the disfellowshipped and the barred from entry. Since I am not certain of Jehovah’s judgements in these matters and to who they apply , I have come to accept that He has made provision for those like us. I left other churches when I saw lies in them. I never joined this one. Given that I know the basics and tried to adhere to His ways I am at a point where I understand that it will all be made right. They have certainly left a lot of damage in their wake, but surely, Jehovah remembers those they damaged…inside their lofty walls or those they banished to the outerlands.

            • The Raven

              This also begs another question. If accepting their lies is a prerequisite for remaining and eventually as they claim, to salvation then why aren’t those alleged apostates who are exposing them doing the same? Is there a double standard here? Robert will not return because he will not accept the false parousia and the 1914 hoax.
              I feel the same way. So, am I toast?

            • Richard Long

              Never may that be true!

            • The Raven

              It’s a valid question. Are we talking about a shared “endurance” here or an exclusive one to those who remain in the org? I’d like to know either way.

            • Richard Long

              Yes, it is of course a valid question and one we all should ask. My reaction was a knee-jerk emotional response, one I would hope we all share. I’m afraid I can’t help you “know” either way, but I can, hopefully, encourage you with a line of reasoning. Further, I perceive your question to be more rhetorical than not, so I am speaking probably for my own benefit more than yours.

              Raven, I think we have to consider that what was happening in the temple both times it was torn down was such a tragic and twisted parody of the system of worship Jehovah actually established, which system of worship was itself a tragic parody of the worship Jehovah put before Adam, which likely consisted of a daily conversation whereby instruction was imparted and ideas or expressions of appreciation or affection were exchanged, and little much else. I imagine a very uncomplicated arrangement. I can’t imagine, even if not interrupted by the machinations of the devil, that it would have ever become one where another human or group of humans would be standing between another human and the Creator.

              Whether His intent or not, and of course I am no authority, Jehovah has, by establishing the very intricate and involved, and frankly downright expensive and exhaustive temple system of worship, shown reasoning persons the absurdity of removing themselves from under his true and righteous and gentle and genuine authority and placing themselves under the counterfeit authority of anything not Himself. Did the tabernacle/temple arrangement imitate the ancient satanic Babylonish systems of worship, or vice versa? And did those in turn imitate or obfuscate the pure, originally intended simple relationship between Jehovah and Adam, the establishment of which, by the way, was pronounced “Good”?

              To the point, I assert that Jehovah has on all fronts demonstrated his superiority over His rebellious and ungrateful son by beating him at his own game, turning the tables on him at will. He has given His “people” exactly what his adversary has offered to them, and by the having of it, they can come to realize the high and unnecessary cost and absurdity of keeping it. Did Jesus, the one assigned to bring to an end the temple system of worship, not say the entire law was fulfilled by anyone carefully observing the first two commandments?

              Fast forward to today. If we accept that the org has fulfilled the role of the prophetic anti-typical Israel, and if the actual parousia and conclusion of this system of things is approaching, can we not reason we should expect the org would also devolve from bad to worse, as did its type, into an equally absurd parody? And like occurred in the type, would not Jehovah raise up his true prophets from within the family of “Israel” but from without the hierarchy, for the purpose of announcing Jehovah’s displeasure with the hierarchy?

              Given that the org has invalidated itself so thoroughly, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that the endurance is shared, something asked of all humans in anticipation of a gift offered to all humans who will but just allow themselves to see and be moved by Jehovah’s undeserved kindness. Even then, isn’t it true that any exclusion from salvation would be the province of the Creator or his assignee’s, none of which will be human when the that particular judgement (exclusion) is to take place?

              My gut tells me I can’t go back because of the lies. That may very well be a personality defect for me personally, as I’m still, 40 years later, full on pissed at my parents for the whole santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy conspiracy. As previously stated, I’m waiting and in agony constantly, very actively searching for the way forward Jehovah would have me take at this juncture. I have to believe we can’t or shouldn’t cookie cutter ourselves here. As we most here have been considering of late and seem to be in agreement, salvation, or even more specifically, faith and its preservation are the epitome of individual and/or personal undertakings.

              I hope this “thinking out loud” is useful for your up-building. Many thousands of times in my life I have come to know even a little of a person and said to myself “surely this person is more agreeable to Jehovah’s heart than I!” Such is the case with me now, even knowing so little of you.

            • The Raven

              I was looking for a yes or no. lol But I always appreciate the time and effort anyone puts into a reply to me. I am very grateful for it. Huldah’s comment made me wonder if she thinks we are together in this or separate.
              My gut tells me nothing. My instincts get me in trouble more often than I care to mention. I am more inclined to look for solid reasoning when I cannot know the full scope of a matter. But that’s just me. It was a simple question posed to someone who remains in the org. Do they view someone like me as toast? How about Robert? Or anyone else the org has screwed over?
              I have stated that I believe we sink or swim based on that examination when He arrives. I know the beatings will commence at that point and well…I wouldn’t doubt most of us have one coming. That’s ok. I just look for ways to understand more clearly where I stand and how HE sees that.
              Thank you for being the good soul I believe you are.

            • Richard Long

              In that case, your straight answer:

              If the org gets to decide, yes, we’re all dead. The temple hierarchy literally tried to lay their hands on God’s own son and had the time been right, would have killed him on the spot, swearing they were doing a service to Jehovah. Paul used his life story to show us this, even apart from Luke’s recording of it in acts.

            • The Raven

              That’s why I ask individuals what they think. I already know what the borg think.

            • Richard Long

              Don’t know if you have happened upon it yet, but Robert has shown that the implications of the WT’ placing the mark of the beast in the second or third decade of the last century is an institution assumption that if one is not “in” they are “out”, and out equals Gehenna.

              I currently fit the institutional qualifications for “unofficially out”, and you “officially out”, Robert: “officially tarred and feathered out”

              Individual opinion from someone “officially in”? Few would dare offer one.

            • The Raven

              Yep. I know about that. I remember a conversation in which they implied I was nothing but a walking corpse. It is IMO, unacceptable coming from true apostates.

            • Richard Long

              My hope would be that there are millions more out there just like you. Jehovah has a well established pattern of saving many who are not of the family of Jacob alongside the family of Jacob. Really that is the only basis of hope for any of us not invited.

            • The Raven

              That and he searches hearts and minds. And I know there are many more out there. The MOL hasn’t got to them all.

            • Richard Long

              I took Huldah’s comment to mean she thinks we shouldn’t go burn down KH’s, as they obviously still have some function in the outworking of Jehovah’s purposes. Otherwise, they would not be functioning.

            • The Raven

              We understood it differently then. That’s why I seek clarification.

            • Richard Long

              I think this falls under the context of the ongoing discussion Huldah and I have been having for weeks. She has spent considerable effort in comforting my lamentations that if we assume the holy spirit is present where those who meet in Jesus name are, than it would be a natural desire to be at the meetings, and not attending leaves a hole to be filled. Of course, then one has to contend with the varying conditions of the congregations, mine being very loving as I remember it, hers being a shark tank. But even so, she, having much interaction with holy spirit, and me, not so much that I could recognize it, is testifying that she can still recognize it there, even in her more cold congregation.

              Further explanation will have to come from Huldah, and I hope I represented her accurately here.

            • The Raven

              Thank you for that Richard. My experience has been completely opposite. I never got the sense that people there had that spirit. I found it in people I spoke to outside those confines. Some were witnesses who sometimes spoke freely when the elders weren’t present some were folks I witnessed to in informal talks at job sites on breaks or sitting next to them at the doctor’s, in restaurants etc.
              I never had the urge to attend but I did have the urge to speak with folks about it. Maybe spirit works in all of us differently and I am always interested in knowing what people’s experiences are.

            • Richard Long

              Which was the underlying pretext of the ongoing discussion you’ve seen only the latest installments of. Huldah testifies to experience with holy spirit, which frankly, given the history of sacrifice that has been her life in the truth, I believe. I, on the other hand, testify that where and if the holy spirit has been at work on or around me, I have not and do not yet have the wherewithal to recognize it’s presence or its results. Or, has it been there the whole time and I’m just blind to it? Or, am I deluding myself to think it would even bother with me. Or, or, or….?

              See the problem?

            • The Raven

              I knew it almost every time. That’s why I was so surprised to find it lacking at KH. I saw nothing but tense, harried folks who seemed to be very uncomfortable around each other and I felt very out of place. It shined in individuals who eagerly wanted to know more when I spoke to them in impromptu chat. I think you’re trying to hard to see it and probably miss it because it’s everywhere you are. Not apart from you. It’s in your words and thoughts as you write replies to me, Huldah, anyone.
              Heck, man…I can see that!

            • Richard Long

              Yes..
              But you cannot give me an official seal of institutional approval!

              So I’m having to learn to breath all over again in an individual and personal endeavor that, thankfully, I can pursue alongside others. Notwithstanding the fact that whatever measure of holy spirit I may be in possession of, like everyone, there is a competing spirit vying for dominance…

              DOH!
              Epiphany! wouldn’t the spirit of the world “feel” just like holy spirit (the ordinary “fruitage of the spirit” kind or amount), only you feel like you need a shower to wash it off? I definitely know what the spirit of the world feels like and I can absolutely recognize when it is operating in or around me, by the fruitage. So then the obverse should be true AND one would do well to recognize BOTH are present and competing for dominance, and barring intervention from the spirit realm, one gets to determine for themselves which will be dominant, even from minute to minute.

            • The Raven

              I think you’re over thinking this to the point you aren’t sure of yourself. That is IMO the spirit you are worried about. Why would you need an official seal? I wouldn’t think anyone can get that.
              Look at the descriptions of the manifestations of Holy spirit from scripture. I would say that’s all you need.

            • Richard Long

              “But you cannot give me an official seal of institutional approval!”

              Raven, meet sarcasm. Sarcasm, meet Raven.

            • The Raven

              I still think you’re over-analyzing the heck out of this. Your comments are indicative of spirit working in you. I am certain I am not the only one here who thinks so, man. Sure, self examination is always warranted but don’t allow the peace and calm of the spirit to be trampled on by fear and doubt.
              You are an agreeable person and from the short time I have been here I can say you display a number of the qualities I would associate with a spirit led man. My humble opinion.

            • Richard Long

              Oh, your absolutely right. Uncertainty has always been present with me, in essence, my personal burden. Upbringing, environment, personality, all of the above. Don’t know the cause, cant cure the deficiency. Just have to live it out until I don’t.

            • The Raven

              Well, from my standpoint I directly and honestly meant what I said and I hope it helps. You’re a good soul. Many here are and I hope one day when this sh!t show is over we can all meet. I’ve got to crash, man. Have a good night, Richard! 🙂

            • Richard Long

              Well, I would trade one of your humble opinions for 5 of my exalted ones! lol

              And thank you for your kind and up-building words. To put your mind at ease, I assure you that I accept that I am where I am on my journey of spiritual growth and that is not to be measured against any other standard than have I grown since last I measured. And I believe this is for me a place and time for accelerated growth, as I have already seen many layers of doubt and fear shed with peace and calm supplanting them in the months since my arrival here,

              And, yet, so much farther to grow, right? Good thing there is eternity!

            • The Raven

              Amen brother. What a ride!

            • The Raven

              Of course and they will be until the true parousia. I would have no part in burning or attacking, I can assure you. Even though I believed the truth, I could never get to the point where I idolized the org or any of its members. This seems to be a task carried out by those who have. But, I think we are ALL collectively in for some degree of correction and refinement. I have no doubts about that.

              https://e-watchman.com/coming-fall-house-god/
              Excerpt:
              “When Christ’s presence actually commences it will become apparent that the Watchtower’s 1914 doctrine is false and that the faithful slave had used his official position as steward of God’s household “for the purpose of deceiving.” Accordingly, the wounds that the then-disgraced organizational prophet is destined to receive “in the house of my intense lovers” will come from Jehovah’s Witnesses – they being his “intense lovers.” Indeed, in Christ’s discussion of the faithful and discreet slave in the 12th chapter of Luke, when the master arrives like a thief in the night even the faithful slave who acted in ignorance is destined to be beaten with a few strokes. (“What are these wounds on your person between your hands?”)

            • Huldah

              I was notified of your message tonight. Sorry for the belated reply.

              I’m still working all this out. It seems to be the ultimate goal that we leave behind the gnat straining of the organization, but we are still required to do what the bible actually teaches. I think the organization plays a similar role to the Judaism in Jesus’ day.

              I also believe Jehovah uses his spirit to guide us and we all have different paths based on our circumstances, personalities, even what we need to refine of our individual character.

              Paul and Peter had different takes and roles in the christian congregation as well as in easing it away from Judaism,one moved much further from it than the other. Paul, though, acquiesced at times for the greater good (when he assisted the Nazirites), whereas in other times he scolded too much adherence to the law (when he scolded Peter). He was disgusted by the “superfine apostles”, but he stayed inside the same organization and helped those who were still humble.

              Robert may fall into the Jeremiah category as he is prevented by false prophets from speaking the truth and banned from their association. The same could happen to us, of course. Do lovers of truth have to accept lies to serve God because the WTO exists? Is there a way that we can serve God in the midst of lies and not accept them? This makes for some painful cognitive dissonance.

              I’m going to the regional convention this weekend, a different one than my own. i won’t be straining gnats so I’m not getting there at 8 am and I will leave when I need to. Knowing that I won’t see anyone I know, helps me too. I wish I could anticipate a blessing, but I don’t. I anticipate some trauma actually, but I will do a little experiment. It’s the best I can do right now.

            • The Raven

              I wish you well. Check my other replies to you, Arvid and Kevin here:
              https://e-watchman.com/hour-of-darkness-approaches/

              I think Robert gave a very good overview on what’s to happen. I will think about it some more and hopefully if freakin disqus will allow me to I may be able to even make a coherent comment!

            • Richard Long

              May Jehovah bring you peace and maybe just a little joy, too, Huldah! Travel safe.

            • Joseph S.

              Been there, done that…….
              May Jehovah Grant you inner peace ?

            • Richard Long

              I brought up the point before, and the more I think about it, it resonates – knowing myself as I do, I believe that were I deluded right up to the fall of the WT, I most definitely would be stumbled. I think that may be our common denominator, that if not for the early “heads up”, we might be so inclined to drive right past our off-ramp.

            • Huldah

              Don’t know why I didn’t get this reply earlier. Just saw it this evening.

              I’m glad you said what you did. Maybe I’ll be able to wrap my mind fully around how it will play out for deluded ones. I’m usually great at visualizing the abstract, but I can’t seem to get into the deluded shoes and see how it will play out or how knowing will help us so much more. Not that I don’t get the concept I just want to see the whole picture in detail so badly because I think it will help me feel better about all that I have been through and what some are getting away with. I have a BIG problem with injustice. I call myself a justice-monger.

              No pressure, but if you (or anyone else) for that matter wants to tell the story as they see it playing out, I’d love to read it. I’ll have to see if Robert has written any detailed articles on this.

            • The Raven

              Huldah, this article is very detailed on what will happen to Jws. I made several replies but am having a bad time with disqus. I also commented on the Inspection and the cleansing and this addresses the inspection as well.

              https://e-watchman.com/valley-of-vision/

            • Richard Long

              Can’t cite any authority on the matter besides myself, I being the ultimate authority on what a blockhead I can be.

              Here is an exercise. Really remember the you that existed one minute before the delusion was removed. Did that person, at the moment of the piercing of the veil, react by saying, “Oh, it all makes sense to me now. I shall pivot in this direction and everything will be fine?.” Or, did that person have a partial or complete breakdown spiritually, mentally emotionally, psychologically, etc?

              Depending on ones unique mindset, being confronted with the sudden fall of the WT will elicit a reaction somewhere on that spectrum, from a stubbed toe minor inconvenience stumbling to a full on fall off the rim of the grand canyon traumatic stumbling. Should we expect a shorter or longer recovery time? If the allotted recovery time will be one day, then I, who had to float the rapids of the Colorado river back to Jehovah, taking months to recover, would surely be lost.

              I am postulating that myself and others similarly situated, those that are passionate and impetuous and of an infirm faith and lacking the accurate knowledge – those of us in dire need of a physician – might require a much, much longer recovery time and are by the wisdom and undeserved kindness of Jehovah allowed to begin that process sooner rather than later, because Jehovah knows that in the moment, without the correct understanding, we would be stumbled beyond recovery. In other words, my faith, the faith of the deluded me under the operation of my unique mindset, would likely have not survived the event, but the faith of the undeluded me under the operation of my unique mindset, has a fair shot.

              On the other end of the spectrum those blissfully ignorant, but with a healthy vibrant faith – those needing no physician – might turn on a dime and instantly recover, or at least recover well within the allotted time.

              I’m postulating that if we accept the endeavor to protect and grow our faith to be an individual and personal pursuit, we might also accept our loving Father may in turn provide the help we need in an individual and personal way, even before we know we need it.

              He’s pretty cool, that way!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Sounds god to me!

            • Huldah

              That was really good. I see the shock in a new light.

              I take it for granted that my enlightenment was more gradual. I have known there is a false nucleus in the congregation for twenty years. I have known that most elders, at least in the US are at best complacent, at worst dangerously apostate for as long. I didn’t have full confidence in what I saw as I was alone, but I knew not to trust their way of life or their advice.
              For at least the last 15 years, I have not believed that most who call themselves JW’s will actually make it into paradise.Many titled ones included. I have believed that a majority are complacent and reliant on this world instead of Jehovah as were the Israelites. I have believed for twenty years that the congregations in Revelation refer to our modern congregations and the various apostasies from the truth.
              For the last 3 years I have been able to see that the elders face a specific judgement.
              Robert has brought a lot into focus and filled in gaps. I really didn’t understand how fully the top level had apostasized, though I have been pretty sure that one of the GB is an apostate since before I read Robert’s writings.
              I had sort of a download from Jehovah about 2 years ago. It was somewhat similar to what Robert describes. Intense motivation to read the prophets and some eye opening truths were revealed to me. I have 200 pages of notes from this time. Of course not as extensive and comprehensive as Robert’s.

              After this, went into what I can only describe as a vicious onslaught by Satan from all sides and consequentially a nervous breakdown of sorts.

              This site has helped me get through it. As have the old notes I made. I read them now and am amazed I found and wrote such information as can be sooo amazingly encouraging to me now, at what seems a million miles from where I was. Only Jehovah could have had me provide me what I would need in the future. But it seems he did. Very recent discovery.

              So, I guess I just demonstrated my agreement with what you said about Jehovah ‘providing in a personal way before we know we need it.’ By accident, actually, but I do totally agree. Love that paragraph, perfect.

            • Richard Long

              {grin} Sounds like I should never answer one of your questions again, but should instead be asking you to answer mine! lol. Interchange of encouragement is a beautiful thing! No?

              Lett?

            • Huldah

              Iron sharpens iron. You helped me see things from a new perspective. Invaluable insight. I still have way more questions than answers. I consider it a compliment when anyone here answers one of my questions. It takes time and effort and real thought. That’s quite something to give to another in today’s thought abhorrent, time is money society.

            • Richard Long

              Lett?

            • Huldah

              I was deliberately not being specific since it appears like judging an individual. My reasoning is that the characteristic of arrogance is the polar opposite of a Christlike personality. If you can recognize arrogance, you can pretty much recognize an apostate. There is no reasoning against this because, while a new witness may rightly still have this quality, a long time witness who has been walking with Christ will naturally have developed humility to at least the degree that they would not be arrogant. Jehovah HATES DESPISES arrogance, haughtiness, pride.

              Christ=humility
              Satan=pride

              I can’t imagine how disgusted even the angels are by pride as they have had to spend so much time with Satan up in heaven, brazenly marching into Jehovah’s meetings asserted his twisted will as he did in the case of Job.

              I hate it just as much for the same reason. I have also learned very specifically how to recognize it for this same reason. Experience.

              I see this sort of arrogance in Morris. Based on many examples. I never met him, but he was at our international in DC.

              I see two forces, though. I see some with humility and some with pride. All 10 virgins are asleep though.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              You said: I have been pretty sure that one of the GB is an apostate since before I read Robert’s writings who is that? May I know what is his apostasy because I also want to know about top level apostasy. You mean Raymond Franz in 1980? or Ewart C. Chitty in 1980, but for homosexual or, Leo Greenlees in 1984 becasue of
              accusations against Greenlees from Mark Palo. Franz may be considered as apostasy but the other 2 guys are kicked because of doing disgusting things. My Hindu drunkard neighbor is better than these two guys in conduct even in his inebriated state.

            • Richard Long

              An enigma wrapped inside a conundrum!

            • The Raven

              I think for my part, Burt that I don’t fully understand all His judgments and exactly who they apply to in this matter. Us or them?

            • The Raven

              In the larger scope of things only God can fix what ails His house. That day will come soon. By all means, teach truth. Expose the hypocrisy and lies. I have done this for a long time from outside the gate. But stay close to Jah. I think many of us want to “rescue” people from this but we must keep in mind that these things have been allowed to happen by Him. Present this to those who will hear. It is not a failure on our part for what the wto has done. We heard and we believed just as the ancient ones did. There were always folks ahead of the curve when things went bad. We seem to be in that position right now, before this all explodes.
              That is a peculiarity that does, IMO make us a little different than those before us. Our generation is. We stand at the threshold for the end of the preaching, the correction and the system. I’m glad we examine ourselves and our beliefs constantly to be sure we are doing what’s right. None of us has all the answers. For what I don’t know, I trust I will be shown what to do as long as I continue in faith.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. We may be more rightly viewing our situation as being ready to help WHEN the calamity begins as opposed to being able to correct wrong thinking now.

            • The Raven

              That’s also a good point, IMO.

            • The Raven

              Another thought about this from what you said;
              I think this goes well beyond the idea that we are stumbled by mere men. Many of us never idolized men or the wto. That excuse only goes so far either. What do we say to all those disfellowshipped or barred from entry even for speaking the truth? They weren’t stumbled were they? Not when the wto says “You can’t ride this ride unless you accept ALL our lies”. Really?
              That is a major issue and IMO I go back to what Christ said; he resides in us as long as we have faith, not just in the confines of an org gone loco under the MOL’s control. Even though it is still his house and they are still his people. So are we. This is a unique situation because of the TIME.
              It could be that those of us who do have understanding in these things will be better prepared than those misled. But I do not feel as if I’m lost any more than I feel those who remain are.

            • Richard Long

              I agree. Excellent big picture thinking. Not only better prepared, but we are also carrying the burden of that advance knowledge. Is not what we do with that knowledge a factor in how Jehovah will assess our spiritual condition? Perhaps Jehovah foresees that people like me in particular (with my personality type, attitude, disposition) would be among the stumbled and lost during the cleansing phase of the parousia and has intervened through some of his anointed to provide that little extra “heads up” that the majority would not need?

              I’m a “special needs” witness, and those needs are being met! Jehovah has sent the “short bus” around to pick me up for tribulation school! lol

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! At this point I’d be willing to say most of us belong on that short bus! I believe that he hears us.

            • The Raven

              I firmly believe there is a reason some of us see and some don’t. I agree that may be a factor in how we react to the parousia. Having a heads up we would be in a better position to deal with it. But the bottom line is we are all susceptible to error and we must constantly examine what we hear and what we see to make sure. Robert surely knows that this information can have a very beneficial or devastating effect on folks.
              I suppose it is safe to say, how we react to this also shows where our hearts are.
              Just because we are not accepting of lies does not mean we do not love Jehovah. Some plod on and remain, waiting on Jehovah. Others who have gone have found ways to serve Him in spite of the wto. I think both are of equal value to him considering the mess the MOL has made of this. The revealing will reveal a lot more than we imagine.

            • Huldah

              One of my biggest deterrents to the meetings is that I don’t want to be brain washed back into the guilt. They are constantly drilling it into you that if you are not performing certain rituals you are failing Jehovah.
              The conformism is cultish.
              It’s designed for only two options get with.the program or leave.

            • Richard Long

              Of course, you are right Huldah, and I would never counsel anyone so abused in their congregation to keep returning for dose after dose. Each of us is responsible for possessing a workable situational awareness and adapting to it as we deem necessary to preserve, protect and grow our faith, and none of us should presume to imagine we know another’s situation so well as to second guess another’s choices.

              Obviously, all of us out here are those painfully conscious of our spiritual need while those conforming are content with theirs, at least for now. Theoretically, technology has made the meetings obsolete for those who have access to it and even the WT is moving in that direction.

              Not that I am any kind of an example, unless one needs an example of what NOT to do or how NOT to be, but 6 months ago, I was doing everything I could to NOT think about Jehovah or the Kingdom. These days, not only is are spiritual things on my mind constantly but I have 24/7/365 access to information but also to good association.

              The only thing lacking is a mechanism for fulfilling the commandment to preach, which I have been conditioned to believe my only consist of service coordinated by the local KH. I am still in the process of solving that equation, but suspect that retail witnessing a la the WT model has become such a commercial enterprise that one should consider alternative ways to reach those Jehovah wants reached.

              The question then becomes what to DO with an interested person? Can we then, in good conscience, turn them over to the disciple milking, I mean training, machine to become just so much more “battery power” for the empire’s matrix?

              These are the things I am having to decide for myself moving forward, but I again assert that those that can work inside the system, even under the added burden, or complication, if you will, of TTATT are for me inspirational, even heroic. Those who do not, can not, or will not are, well….. me.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I love that…’retail witnessing?..’ What I do for people I meet, in reply to your question, is point them to this site. After all, it’s the truth so what better? Here they can be given spiritual food and come to know the true nature of the truth and its relation to the watchtower. Having got on to the meat of the word, they can then make their own spiritual choice as to what to do. After all, that much is their responsibility. Why point them to wolves when there is a shepherd. The point is now, surely, to save a life with truth. ?

            • The Raven

              Well put, Burt. I agree.

            • The Raven

              I’ve been speaking with people on the net for years and even in real life have been directing them to sites like these. If I won’t go back to KH, then I can’t expect them to go there either. They would ask me why I am not there. Then what? Those who are already there must decide whether or not they can deal with it. But new ones, I can’t do that to them.

            • Richard Long

              Reminds me of every time the union (at Ford) comes around asking if I want to take home a referral ( the only way in here). They are shocked when I say ” no thanks”. After incredulously asking why, they practically fall struck dead when I say: “Can’t think of anyone I hate that much.”

            • The Raven

              LOL! I can relate!

            • Richard Long

              It might help you to know me better if I share that my first posting on any net venue anywhere about anything was my first posting on eWatchman. Joseph can tell you that was a bit of a “baptism” for me!

            • The Raven

              Really??? I had no idea, man. You seem to know your way around fairly well. Gave me advice on this blasted disqus pain in the butt. But I’m glad you’re here. Joseph is cool too. Fellow sparky.

            • Richard Long

              veteran lurker, novice participant, general know it all who compulsively straightens out the candy bars in the check out isle if they are mixed up. lol

            • The Raven

              Haha! We had guys like you on the crew. Real good instrumentation men who paid very close attention to detail. They could find a glitch in seconds. That OCD was a credit in my field! lol!

            • Richard Long

              My cable guy! The lineman, anyway. My old farm house is wired for a home run and every couple days for three weeks, he was out here chasing down some intermittent bandwidth spikes. Showed them to me on his handy phone app, which quite amazingly allows him to monitor and manage all the nodes on his segment of the network! Wasn’t satisfied until he reran the home run himself, which did, in fact eliminate our “disruption” of the “serenity” of his bandwidth nirvana!

            • The Raven

              lol! Some folks have a gift for that.

            • Richard Long

              This fellow was a crusader! Best customer service from a public/private utility EVER!!!

            • The Raven

              Man, I wish more folks were like that. It would have made my job a lot easier and they are good for the morale of the crews.

            • Huldah

              As you can see, I am as conflicted as you are. I still see Jehovah in the organization, but the effect of the MOL on me at this moment is more damaging than meeting attendance would be beneficial.

              I don’t see your counsel as pushy or insisting either way just helpful as it is nice to bounce things off another, especially when they have similar feelings.

              I listened to the meeting today because the CO was here. I do occasionally get a gem here or there when they are around. The guilt was palpable and the hypocrisy was stomach churning. I know too much about the lives of those commenting on the WT.

              It was an interesting experiment to listen in with the clear knowledge I have from Robert about the tests to come. Some mentioned the fact that the “Great Tribulation” is coming or that we have to be ready for the end as it is coming soon.
              This is all they could say as they have no grounding for believing there is something to be ready for. It’s as if some sense that judgement is coming but the MOL won’t let them have the knowledge they need to think it through and prepare themselves.

              It was strange, like what Paul describes as a “veil” over the truth.

              As you mentioned, we are constantly growing and changing spiritually. We don’t even know how sometimes. It’s like our minds are processing while we sleep and one day we can face or have an interest in something we didn’t the day before.
              I see this happening to me with the truth. One month I just can’t stomach reading even the Bible, the next I am devouring the scriptures. I figure I will process things with time and get to where I need to be when the time is right.

              The rituals mean nothing. They don’t make spiritual people. All have to do is think of my husband’s family to be sure of this.

              I do believe that a new christian needs the organization to teach them the basics. The same way Christ worshiped at the temple as a young man. It’s corrupt but it is the only channel for the truth.

              Once you have passed the state of a “babe” in the truth, Jehovah works at a deeper level. Sort of like graduating High School. You no longer have a regimen set up for you. There’s more flexibility, but also deeper responsibility and a deeper education that comes from your endeavors.

              My goal is to get back to the meetings, but I will have to let time or Jehovah pave the way.

              As far as preaching goes. I’m a bit pragmatic. Since I started pioneering, I have always believed that the ministry is more for us than the people we teach. I know one man who pioneered over 20 years but never brought a single person into the truth. Not that that’s all it’s about, but it’s also not about getting hours. Then there is the matter of the joy and heart motivation. If it is missing, is it really acceptable? We are better to witness on this site or at the doctor’s office with passion than witness at a door perfunctorily. I believe we do need to follow the command to preach, but
              I always think of this scripture.

              Mark 2:27
              New International Version
              Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

              New Living Translation
              Then
              Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people,
              and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath.

              The ministry is not meant to be a burden or a ritual. The requirement is not meant to be a source of distress, but refreshment.

              One day it will even be done away with. Then what will we be if we define ourselves by our ministry?

            • Burt Reynolds

              Didn’t the watchtower release a pamphlet not long ago, entitled ‘Come Back To Guilt.’ ? I think you are being a little generous with the latter option though Huldah. The option to leave they make almost impossible to bear so that it’s not an option at all in most cases. At least you found the answer and your ‘brain’ has been ‘washed’ in the blood of the lamb! That’s the best brainwashing of all.

            • The Raven

              For what it’s worth Huldah, I had bosses like that when I did factory work in between electrical construction jobs. They wanted absolute obedience and would not accept that we were manufacturing an inferior product all because of six sigma. They were all so busy trying to get their black belt they could have cared less about the final product and used the cheapest parts they could find. We had to go along even though the failure rate for the products rose higher each month. Then they looked for ways to blame us for this. Figures.

            • Huldah

              I was reading some old notes on the state of the congregation. I found some invaluable insights before I found ewatchman. Both solidified my feelings toward the MOL.

              Here is an excerpt from a commentary on Bible Hub.

              It’s extremely insightful

              2tim 3:5 form of devotion

              “‘ The command here is so definite—“from these turn away”—that any theory which would relegate the vices just enumerated to a distant future would require, as above stated, that a strained and unnatural meaning should be given to this positive direction to Timothy. The plain and obvious signification of the passage is: men committing the sins alluded to lived then in the Church over which Timothy presided; they were to be avoided by the chief presbyter and his brethren. FORM AND POWER 2 Timothy 3:5IN this, his last letter and legacy, the Apostle Paul is much occupied with the anticipation of coming evils. It is most natural that the faithful watchman, knowing that the hour of relieving guard was very near at hand, should eagerly scan the horizon in quest of the enemies that might approach when he was no longer there to deal with them. Old men are apt to take a gloomy view of coming days, but the frequent references to the corruptions of the Church which occur in this letter are a great deal more than an old man’s pessimism. They were warnings, which were amply vindicated by the history of the post-apostolic age of the Church, which was the seed-bed of all manner of corruptions, and they point to permanent dangers, the warning against which is as needful for us as for any period. Wherever any great cause or principle is first launched into the world, it evokes earnest enthusiasm, and brings men to heroisms of consecration and service. And so when Christianity was first launched, there was less likelihood of its attracting to itself men who were not in earnest, and who were mere formalists. But even in the Apostolic Church there were an Ananias and a Sapphira, a Simon Magus, and a Demas. As years go on, and primitive enthusiasms die out, and the cause which was once all freshly radiant and manifestly heaven-born becomes an earthly institution, there is a growing tendency to gather round it superficial, half-and-half adherents. What. soever is respectable, and whatsoever is venerable, and whatsoever is customary will be sure to have attached to it a mass of loose and nominal adherents; and the gospel has had its full share of such. I was talking not very long ago to a leading man belonging to another denomination than my own; and he quietly, as a matter of course said, ‘Our communicants are so many hundred thousands. I reckon that a quarter of them, or thereabouts, are truly spiritual men!’ and he seemed to think that nobody Would question the correctness of the calculation and the proportion. Why, ‘Christendom’ is largely a mass of pagans masquerading as Christians. And every church has its full share of such people; loose adherents, clogs upon all movement, who bring down the average of warmth like the great icebergs that float in the Atlantic and lower the temperature of the summer all over Europe. They make consecration ‘eccentric’; they make consistent, out-and-out Christian living ‘odd,’ ‘unlike the ordinary thing,’ and they pull down the spirituality of the Church almost to the level of the world. Every communion of so-called Christian men has its full share of these. The same thing applies to us, and every Church of God on the face of the earth has a little core of earnest Christians, who live the life, and a great envelope and surrounding of men who, as my text says, have the form of godliness, and practically deny the power thereof. Widespread, and all but universal, this condition of things is. And so let each of us say, ‘Lord! Is it I?’”

              MacLaren’s Expositions

              This explains what has happened to the organization. Helps me a lot to see the situation for what it is.

            • Burt Reynolds

              I often think ‘how long jehovah?’, as one day follows the other.

            • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

              You are right with Isaiah:6:11

        • Max

          You were never the only one Beverly… I think that is the way the organization “stimulates us” to do more. I have always felt a deep feeling of guilt for never have been able to be that picture perfect witness portrayed in the magazines and books. You do not even imagine how guilt is played by the leadership at Bethel. Guilt is the number one cause of depression over there because they always promote the feeling that what you do for Jehovah is never enough… never enough so you are left with a terrible feeling of guilt and frustration with yourself. Then when brothers ask for help about those sad feelings they are told that they might not be suitable for a life at Bethel so brothers feel even more guilt and more feeling of inadequacy… the perfect storm for chronic depression.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Even when I was pioneering I was shown the scripture about worthless slaves, only doing what they aught to do….and when I was unemployed once, I had two elders and their wives come round to show me the scripture on not providing for my family and being worthless. I think at that time I just burst into tears so they got up and left. Naturally, I appreciated the loving wake-up call and went and thanked them all personally, doubled my time on the ministry, miraculously found myself a job even though at that time there was 2,000,000 unemployed in Britain in the 1970s and became a stalwart leader in the congregation, all because of that loving call by the elders. Actually, I can’t lie, I took and overdose and went to bed, but having the constitution of an Ox, woke up the next morning and carried on. Slept like a log though.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Oh, my goodness Burt, that is horrific! And still your sister thinks everything is okay with that organisation! They nearly killed her brother and when that same brother tells her all that’s wrong with the org she takes the high ground and treats you like some apostate! You have amazing self control! ??

            • Burt Reynolds

              When I told her some of my experiences with elders, her reply was, ‘well they’re all dead now so you can come back!’ I’m sad to say that my sister is so blind, she makes the blind seem positively visionary! It amuses me in an odd, obtuse way. I’m sure we all have our own stories!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Please don’t be offended Burt but is your sister a sociopath?! I don’t know how you cope with her! Why would you want to run back into a burning building when they took you to the lowest point and look at the devastation to your family who are still feeling the fallout from that time and all she can tell you is go back!! Cold as ice!

            • Burt Reynolds

              Funny you should say that. I don’t know what’s wrong with her. I don’t think she means anything by it. There is no malice aforethought . It epitomises or encapsulates, for me at least, the entire mindset of the watchtower, which seems to strip the mind of the insight and reason that inspires genuine empathy . I don’t think she had a good start in life either to be fair and was an easy picking for the watchtower concept of ‘stick with us…you will be safe with us.’ I think that the psychology behind such thinking is a construct of people’s natural need (in this system) to have order in their lives and the safety of leaving the responsibility of life in the hands of others. She has never had to do a secular stroke of work her entire life…a sort of lifelong Jobian hedge around her, both physically and ‘scripturally’. I don’t think she knows anything more about society than that which the watchtower and the BBC news tell her. It must be like living inside a sealed can of beans. Her husband is an elder and she enjoys the security of approval that such ’eminence’ provides and it forms yet one more bond around her ability and freedom to think critically. The collective outcome of which, of course, would deprive anyone of emotive empathy, insight, sympathy and reasoning ability. A sort of model JW, and how can you reason on life, if you have never experienced it, which is exactly the frame of mind imposed by the watchtower. No work, just preach, no striving, just acceptance, no mixing with others, just solitary combining with like minds….a hive mind, no sympathy for others who are not like you…they are deserving of death…..no sympathy even for the experience of death….there is a resurrection, full tollerance for the ‘mistakes’ of those in power over you, yet full condemnation for those who disagree. And so, yes, if one were to put a label on the psychopathy of such a person it would indeed show as a severe mental illness, a total denial of emotion towards one’s self and that of others. As the scripture says ‘….my people like it that way…’ And you can see why; a total abdication of responsibility to self and others.
              It is of course at this point that one can see the extent of Jehovah’s mercy and the importance of us not to bring judgement on the simple symptoms of this worlds influence that we see illustrated through the actions of others. We need to look at the causal roots of behaviour, not the symptoms. I think what we see is the satanic mark of influence. If people are drawn out by their own desire, it illustrates the lie that no one will serve Jehovah willingly, while Satan ‘absolves’ himself of responsibility…’they chose to do it…’ See a mirror in the watchtower? …in the world? It will take nothing less than the manifestation of Christ to oppose that, and wake those who strive for wakefulness.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Burt, this post of your’s is just fantastically written covering all the major points. But the bit that jumped out at me about the lack of empathy from model JW’s was, ‘ no sympathy even for the experience of death’ as there is a resurrection. So very true when you say it wil take the manifestation of Jesus Christ all those things you brought out so brilliantly in your post!

            • The Raven

              Exactly, man.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Max, I rarely cry, I might fill up but I rarely ever cry but reading this post of your’s really does make me want to weep for those ones you mention. Yeah, I wanted to be the picture perfect witness as seen in the mags and talked about from the platform, the ones who were special this and amazing that and the ‘thousands’ of hours spent in the ministry, I would be sat there squirming with guilt and some rage feeling worthless! I went back briefly to the KH last year and I could feel the anxiety and guilt creeping back in so when I was dobbed in by those two infantile snitches, they did me a big favour as there is no way I will once again subject my mental health to such subtle, drip, drip, drip, abuse. And I feel sorry for ones who have surrendered to it week in week out and think that is it! That’s how Jehovah wants us to serve him…in a sea of guilt and forever feeling miserable! Ones say Jesus’ load is light, others say, you have to pick up your torture stake so it’s not easy serving Jehovah! Well, I want to know which one is it!! I know a person won’t breeze through serving Jehovah and we have many examples of that in the Bible but surely serving Jehovah doesn’t have to mean you end up with a life of crippling mental health problems even to the point of suicide or ending up on a mental ward! Sorry, Max, but I could go on but I have to dash again as I have to taxi my child again…I wear many hats as a parent and being a taxi driver is one of them and anything I want to do is way down at the bottom of the list! Lol.

            • Max

              Don’t cry Beverly. I do not want you to
              feel sad. In a more positive view I believe that we the humans whom
              will survive Armageddon will know first hand and with certainty that
              human government of any kind really really do not work for the
              advancement and happiness of humanity. We have seen first hand the
              effect on people of political governments and we have experienced
              even closer the effects of a group of men whom they say to govern
              in the name of Jehovah. Not the political governments nor the GB have
              had the power to bring happiness to humanity. So truly no human
              government really works for humankind not political nor a religious
              government called the governing body ruling in the name of God. It
              has been proven by any doubt that is the Kingdom of God what we truly
              need to find joy and happiness on hearth. Men eventually do become
              tyrannic and abusive when in power.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Just made me upset to hear of ones being mistreated by others who are suppose to share the same Faith. It’s such a betrayal! And they have no right to do stuff like that. Thank you Max for your concern. I wanted to cry but I don’t cry. Huldah wrote a good quote about power and the state men become when they achieve that power, I think it was Huldah, these men start off okay and then they become tyrants. After nearly 6 thousand years Jehovah has proved beyond all reasonable doubt that we’re hopeless and helpless at trying to govern ourselves, especially with Satan pulling the strings and megalomaniacs being in charge of people’s lives, it was never going to work! We will always need the love, protection, comfort and divine spiritual guidance from our Creator and Heavenly Father as he has our best interests at heart, he wants what’s the best for us his children. Hey, Max have you been gone from Bethel for a while and if so I hope you’re settled in okay to everyday life on the outside and it would be fantastic to cuddle your beautiful dog and feel it’s fabulous fur…he’s such a handsome boy!

            • Max

              I left Bethel several years ago, but I would say the first 5 years of being out were very difficult years. After that I were able to finish graduate school and I’m ok now. I still have dreams of Bethel though and when I wake up my anxiety level goes through the roof. You know because of me being a health cara professional my life at Bethel was a bit better compared to most of the brothers there. I made some good friends and I had some extra privileges because the branch comity members and couple of GB members were my patients, but life there was so so stressful. They do not allow you to feel at ease at Bethel. Brothers and I felt it too feel that walking on eggshells all the time. I always felt like being in a house surrounded by wolfs. When I left I was so burnt out that I did not even wanted to requalify again and serve as an elder in my new congregation. I felt like I need it a mental break from the abuse drama and spirit of competition at Bethel and my previous body of elders. You need to be a very strong spiritual person and have thick skin to make it out of Bethel alive spirituality speaking. Because the majority of people there are very good at what they do… they are very corporate minded people but not very spiritual people as the majority of brothers believe them to be.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Blimey Max, living like that sounds brutal apart from making the friends you did. It sounds like you were living in some sort of corporate monastery, no it sounds like living in the Vatican but without the robes…it also sounds medieval! It sounds like you’re suffering from low level ptsd but I don’t have to tell you that as you’re qualified to do a self diagnosis. That’s not normal! I’m like in shock that someone would live like that! See, there’s that competitive spirit they encourage, I can’t stand that, it truly knocks me sick that attitude of ‘I’ve got to be the best, I’ve to be at the top of the pile. I’m better than you’, that’s sick! Us out here, obviously don’t know the half of what’s going on in those places. You never said why you left that toxic environment but feel so happy you got out when you did! Phew! Why Max, why did you put yourself through that? And I thought KH’s were toxic! I think I would rather Putin lock me up in a gulag than live my life in that environment or maybe doing time in North Korea! So glad Max, you got out alive and mentally intact as you come across as a really lovely caring guy who has the most gorgeous dog. So happy to hear you’ve made a real life for yourself in the real world and it’s fantastic you’re here sharing your spiritual knowledge with us here. Don’t know why, but in my minds eye, I keep seeing you breaking out of there dressed all in black in the dead of night with a knife between your teeth and you have a black woolly hat on, a bit James Bondy type. So glad you escaped.

            • Max

              I went to Bethel because the full time service was my life… I felt then and I do feel now the happiest serving Jehovah and I loved the organization, and I left because I gave them all my heart and soul to do the best job I could possibly could and they kept asking for more and more and more until I had no more joy left doing my assignment. I lost all happiness in the full time service and I started to see myself as a robot as I always saw them to be and I never wanted to be. At that moment all the happiness that I always found through my more than ten years in the full time service to Jehovah was gone. That lack of joy made me feel miserable. I felt Jehovah had left me because how could it be that me serving Jehovah full time and not being happy right? That went on for a whole year. The branch overseers noticed my lack of productivity so they said… so two of them met with me and they told me that I need it to step up my good work because I had a promising career ahead of me but they noticed and my crew made comments that I was slacking at work now. In that very meeting I gave my notice but I asked them first for a leave of absence. They were shocked! They did not want to give me a leave of absence so I resigned my assignment. They met with me on a Monday I left the headquarters the following Sunday. After a week one of them called me and said that they have now agreed to give me the leave of absence. I said that I was very thankful but I might not come back. I never been back since not even for a tour.

            • Richard Long

              One has to wonder how bad a hit your overlords, I mean overseers, took for their failure to keep you in line and productive, let alone allowing you to escape?

            • Joseph S.

              Max, you are not far from the kingdom of God!
              https://youtu.be/MPACpr6fGAE

            • Beverly kenyon

              Good! Not even for an hour! Even better! You were a slave to an organisation. Yeah, in your heart you wanted to serve Jehovahn completely but you were taken advantage of and in my opinion, exploited! Of course you’re gonna lose your joy under those conditions. I went to that link Joseph provided and that guy flung himself off a roof! Him a devout witness, he took his own life and that speaks volumes for me! They’re not to know who’s gonna break, but they’ll make you feel like you’re not even human anymore and that is soul destroying for some. Thank goodness you recognised you were ready for breaking and you took action, no messing about and got out of there and that shows you’re a really strong person. No procrastinating, you just went. And how mean not to give you a leave of absence at first as you were clearly struggling, no, you had to literally resign and a week later try to soften you up with, yeah, you can take that time off now Max, cos they knew you weren’t to be messed with and they couldn’t possibly lose a valuable workhorse. So glad you told them where to go! A tour…that’s ridiculous! Isn’t that the witness equivalent of the Hajj? I can think of more fun ways of spending a few hours. Lol.

            • The Raven

              Sounds like a prison with the bulls just waiting for someone to make a mistake.

            • L.H.

              North Korea II

            • The Raven

              Good analogy. What a shame Jah’s servants are treated this way.

            • Joseph S.

              Wow Max, that Stressed me out ! Glad you were able to make it out and thrive! Some people haven’t been so lucky……
              http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/brooklyn-man-leaps-15-stories-death-article-1.998012

            • The Raven

              Amen.

        • Arvid Fløysand

          “They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men,but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.”(Matthew 23:4)

          “On seeing the crowds,he felt pity for them,because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd” (Mattew 9:36)

          “Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down,and i will refresh you.Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,for i am mild tempered and lowly in heart,and you will find refreshment for yourselves .For my yoke is kindly,and my load is light.”(Mattew 11:28-30)

          Do not follow any man…they will treat you bad…follow the Son of man,Jesus the Christ,he will treat you with love and kindness

          • Beverly kenyon

            Yoke is kindly and load is light! Those words right there is what it’s all about when it comes to being a servant of Jehovah. His Son who is in charge of everything spells it out right there. Well still bear the burden of a yoke on our shoulders and we will be carrying a load implying work is involved but it won’t be to breaking point where we feel burdened with guilt, disillusionment and other negative feelings and then our little legs give out and we give up! Arvid, I will never follow any man when it comes to my spirituality. Even when I was fully involved being a witness and they used to talk in glowing terms about the go, co’s, po’s, ‘special’ pioneers, I used to be thinking, I’m not interested in those people, good for them they’re doing what they’re doing, I just want to tell people about the amazing Kingdom and what Jehovah has in store for mankind in the future. It should read gb above, btw. I have one King, one Teacher and one Father in Heaven and I listen to them both, they have the last word on all matters for me. Gotta dash again as that child of mine moved the goal posts for my taxi duties. Sometimes Arvid, children are not a joy and are bloomin nuisances! Lol. But I love ’em all anyway! That’s why those witness parents should not be having their young children baptised at young ages as they’re still immature as Burt brilliantly pointed out and really in some cases aren’t they setting their children up for failure somewhere along the line and I bet because of the competitive spirit there is in the KH’s it’s probably a status symbol thing among the witnesses. You can just hear the bragging…my child was baptised at 6 months old, oh, yeah, well my child was baptised straight out the womb, beat that. Lol. It really is pathetic what is happening amongst witnesses and very sad.

      • The Raven

        I have heard this from so many ex JWs I can’t even count. One friend told me he was depressed the whole time he was immersed in their programs. Once he left he felt as though a huge burden was lifted off him. He still believes but he is no longer their inmate. I tend to be very suspicious of people who flatter, threaten or try to guilt trip me into doing something I can’t stomach. Thankfully I was spared that pain.

        • Huldah

          My husband’s exact sentiments.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Can hubby join in? It would be lovely to welcome him. I’ve learnt so much and the fellowship is lovely.

      • Huldah

        I’ve often said of my current congregation that it is made up of the abusers and the abused. And that’s it.

    • Max

      This is so true!!. Its never enough with the WT.

      • The Raven

        I consider it a serious mishandling of His people. I still have a great love and respect for all those who continue to make His name known but since long ago I viewed their leaders with a wary eye. They have been led by the MOL into a swamp of false prophecy and are stuck in that muck until He arrives. People like Robert have been trying for years to rescue those who will listen through the equivalent of inter web Catacombs since we cannot bring this up at KH.
        What a world we live in.

        • Max

          You are so right my brother the leadership mishandling of Jehovah’s people has been devastating for them. The bad example set in place by the GB is followed by all the middle management and that bad example translates for us into numerous man made statements that burden us to the point that many have eventually lost the joy of service and the flame of zealous love that ones burned bright has now for many turned too dimmed. Rejoicing in Jehovah’s service is very important for God because we need to present our offerings with joy. Jehovah expects us to be happy when under his service. We must rejoice before Jehovah (De 12:12) because the joy of Jehovah is our strengthhold (Ne 8:10) and it should not be taken away by men by adding to the word of God man made regulations. (Re 22:18-19)

          • The Raven

            I went to the link on Micah and found this from Robert’s work. It says it all about their attitudes.:

            http://jehovah-is-king.com/micah/

            The following is an excerpt from a court case in Scotland, in 1954, during which time one of the Society’s officers (Haydon Covington) was put under oath and made to answer the following questions:

            Q. That was the publication of false prophecy?

            A. That was the publication of a false prophecy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophecy that was false or erroneous.

            Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

            A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

            Q. Back to the point now. A false prophecy was promulgated?

            A. I agree that.

            Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

            A. That is correct.

            Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

            A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

            Q. Unity at all costs?

            A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

            Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

            A. That is conceded to be true.

            Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

            A. That is correct.

            Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?

            A. I think – – –

            Q. Would you say yes or no?

            A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

            Q. Do you call that religion?

            A. It certainly is.

            Q. Do you call it Christianity?

            A. I certainly do.

            • Max

              Oh yes, there you have in those lines the organization views and understanding of the word of God at it best!

            • The Raven

              That is why they do this. It is evident in their stubborn refusal to admit ever being wrong , their mistreatment of honest people, their lack of regard for children and their CYA mentality. If they worked for any of the outfits I worked for they would have been FIRED and possibly beaten on the way out.

            • Richard Long

              1954!!!!!!!!

              Sorry, I originally thought you showed us the dictionary definition of “delusion of grandeur” :p

            • The Raven

              It’s been going on a lot longer than most folks realize.

            • Burt Reynolds

              Oh I had a good laugh at that, but sadly, after falling off my chair laughing, I realised that 63 years later, nothing has changed. Very sobering.

            • The Raven

              That’s true. Everything they do is predicated on that falsehood and they are compelled to support it. At any cost.

    • Huldah

      Thanks for bringing up this powerful subject. Well said.

    • L.H.

      I think they do that because we have to fullfill their phony parousia.

      • Beverly kenyon

        True LH.

    • Richard Long

      Or, more specifically, COIN counters!

    • The Raven

      Will the Watchtower ever say: ‘Enough’?
      https://e-watchman.com/watchtower-donations-enough/

  • So you don’t want to hang off a rubbish lorry anymore? 🙂
    That’s STILL a cool job. Kudos to those hard workers that can do it.

    Very true, as until your late 20s, your personality is still developing/changing.

    • Huldah

      Hi Joe.
      I’m still learning British. I know lories as parrots so I was a tad confused for a sec. British is hard language to master especially when your native language is plain old American English.?

      This comment is rubbish and belongs in a rubbish lorry anyway.

      • Burt Reynolds

        Huldah….Of course your comment is not rubbish! Be assured that We English make every effort to understand the American merciless slaughter of Our language, and are always ready to forgive outrageous spelling errors in our delightful tongue, e.g., Flavor (good grief), and mispronunciation….
        ..e.g., Veh-hicles, (sigh…) and misapplication of meaning in so many words, e.g., faggot is a round of offal wrapped in caul, simmered in gravy, OR, a bundle of sticks used for lighting fires, and certainly not what you natives imply it to be. I’m not sure we can forgive referring to the English language as British, but I will discuss the matter with pater and mater at afternoon tiffen and let you know. The only unforgivable slander against the English language is to proffer pronunciation of the Thames as the Thames, with a soft T, ergo Sthames…its just not done. Having said that we are still very amused by one of your fellow Americans buying the old London Bridge thinking it was Tower Bridge. I believe he reconstructed his purchase in a dessert somewhere. Quite right too. You have to have sympathy for us as well though….I mean, why DO you people call a pond, the Atlantic and laugh when we refer to her Majesty as a queen? ?

      • Beverly kenyon

        Lol. That’s funny. ?

      • No no, not at all. Even though it’s the same language it’s our different histories that make them interesting in their own right. As I’ve matured with age, I’ve realised that we don’t “say things the right way because English was invented in England”! Things are just different and make for sometimes very funny conversations between Americans & Brits (e.g. An American guy telling a Brit he wears suspenders or a fanny pack!)
        There’s a lot of American grammar that actually makes sense. Thanks for your comment. Just for you… Garbage Truck 😉 xx

        • Richard Long

          Hey Joe! After all America has done in service of the Empire, saving it from extinction and all, haven’t her sons earned the right to thoroughly and properly butcher the language with impunity and without regret? :p

    • Daisy d

      Make no mistake AJ,
      Robert is still hanging off the trash truck!
      His work as a watchman has protected all of us “apostate” rubbish from diving headfirst into a landfill site, and because of his work we are recycled into parts that combine with other parts to form something bigger and healthier as witnesses of Jehovah.
      Toot! Toot!

      • Arvid Fløysand

        Very good comment Daisy…could it be that when we are all put togeter,then the result is a spiritual shiny colorful peace-train?…and now we are on the right track and with plenty of room we gladly welcome all on our way to climb onboard…Toot!Tooooooooooooot!

        • Beverly kenyon

          Yeah, Arvid, we’re gonna ‘toot toot’ all the way to Paradise! Climb on board all Truth lovers. ?

          • Arvid Fløysand

            It was so heartwarming yesterday, to watch our Colombian brother Andres find his own 13 year old son on this “train”…hope there will be many moments like that on this “ride”
            🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              I know Arvid! Wasn’t that so fantastic about Andres and Daniel! That made me smile so much and a day later I’m still smiling. Andres heart must’ve burst with love and joy for his boy!

            • Beverly kenyon

              Arvid, that’s was a bit awkward for me yesterday when Daniel posted here as I had just finished on a mini rant about children not always being a joy and they’re bloomin nuisances sometimes…then Daniel pops up! Awkward!! I hope he didn’t take it personally but it was that girl of mine winding me up! Lol.

          • Burt Reynolds

            I’m going by Japanese bullet train. No toots, just a whistle.

      • Beverly kenyon

        That’s hilarious! ?

  • Christian Obadiah

    Brother King, I have something in common with you. I also wanted to be a garbage man for the reasons you wrote.

  • Yuri Fisher

    How sad that everything good WT spoiled by their stupid regulations. Good intentions of people they make look bad. People want to be baptized in the name of Jehovah but WT leaders make competition out of it. Who will be the first to be baptized. Peer pressure works very strong in congregation. Elders do not care about children who want to be baptized. Most important for them are numbers. So in our congregation many young children left congregation because their faith was not strong. Also those who remain do not have good knowledge if Bible. They just repeat what WT say. No deep thinking. Yes this WT organization more and more resemble Jewish leaders of the past. They doing the same mistakes. The results will be the same. They can disfelowship as much as they want. Jehovah and Jesus will restore true worship without WT. All who disfelowshiped for wrong reasons will be reinstated by Jehovah anyway. Too bad many young people and old suffering now because of WT leaders. I know Jehovah will destroy WT of today and restore true worship by creating a new Christian organization where justice will reside. Amen.

  • Daniel

    Pues es verdad que los niños no se deberían bautizar a menos de que tenga un conocimiento sobre los cargos y responsabilidades que con lleva esto .

    • Richard Long

      Daniel said:
      For it is true that children should not be baptized unless they have a knowledge of the positions and responsibilities that lead to this

    • Andres Felipe

      I introduce you to my son … I did not know he made comments on the forum. Is a beautiful child of 13 years and loves much jehova. He has not been baptized yet

      • Max

        Daniel is your son?

        • Beverly kenyon

          How amazing is that Max! Andres’ son posting a comment here on Ewatchman!

        • Andres Felipe

          Si hermano máx. Daniel es mi hijo …llevo enseñándole todo lo que he aprendido. No quiero que tenga la misma decepción. No puedo enviarles una foto para que lo vean …es hermoso

          • Richard Long

            Translation:
            If brother max. Daniel is my son … I’ve been teaching him everything I’ve learned. I do not want you to have the same disappointment. I can not send them a photo so they can see it … it’s beautiful

          • Max

            Wow Andres, Felicitaciones! Que Jehovah continue bendiciendote a ti y tu familia hermano.

      • Richard Long

        Welcome Daniel!

      • Arvid Fløysand

        This is very nice…i am happy for you Andres 🙂

        • Andres Felipe

          Gracias mi hermano …

      • Burt Reynolds

        Welcome Daniel!

      • Beverly kenyon

        That’s so fantastic about your son Andres. Only just read this post of your’s. What a lovely boy!

        • Andres Felipe

          Es un chico muy inteligente y ama mucho a jehova . Le he enseñado lo que he aprendido de robert y ha captado muy bien la información. ..es hermoso

          • Richard Long

            Translation:
            He is a very intelligent boy and he loves jehova very much. I have taught him what I have learned from Robert and he has captured the information very well. ..its beautiful

            • Beverly kenyon

              Thanks for the translation Richard.

          • Beverly kenyon

            Hi Andres, it is beautiful how you’ve taught your boy and how he’s developing a Love for God of his own accord. He sounds an intelligent and sensible boy. Keep up the good work Andres!

    • Arvid Fløysand

      Welcome Daniel 🙂

    • Beverly kenyon

      Hi Daniel, it was lovely reading your post here on EWatchman. I got to read it as a brother here on this forum, Richard Long translated it and it was a very good comment. Look forward to hearing more from you.

  • i liken it to marrage, if a child is not educated or experienced enough to make a decision for marrage, which is a vow of dedication, then how much less baptism where a organization has wrongly inserted itself into the baptismal vows

    • Burt Reynolds

      Exactly.

      • many children have gray hair and are over 30 and lived in a life when pot-pies were 30 cents an douple the size. (editing…)

    • Searcher

      Hi DA, I think you will enjoy this article on vows in relation to Christians.

      http://beroeans.net/2017/05/28/what-you-vow-pay

      “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/705f4fa0c25c19eafe5306275892d98b34c09c307831ee659f4d241b4afe10e3.jpg All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

  • Burt Reynolds

    The impact on a child is unfathomable. They simply cannot comprehend the finality of life, and the concept of faith…in fact, no one person’s mind is set and reasoned until the early twenties, and that is only if you have had a balanced infancy. ( see mental illness in children). Not only that, but the baptism of infants is used as a tool in abuse, for leverage through fear, threatening the child with disfellowshipping, not to mention the conflict imposed in their minds between truth, Jehovah, conscience and perpetrator and self, to create an unsustainable conflicting commentary in the mind. This is the point where the personality disintegrates and results in arrested mental development that can last a lifetime. The technique imposed on children’s minds ( unconsciously by well-meaning parents) to submit to baptism to gain approval is identical to the technique used by paedophiles in grooming children for abuse. The same mental faculties are located and abused, unconsciously, even innocently by parents influenced by watchtower, or deliberately by paedophiles or men-pleasers vying for position within the congregation. It is actually in its extreme form, manslaughter, because it murders the soul, or has the potential to. I believe the watchtower used to sing a song about it…..’fear not those that kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul….’ Unfortunately due to their outrageous hypocrisy, and damnable regulations, they have achieved death to both the body and soul in many children. Blood guilt.

    • The Raven

      Even worldly courts don’t treat children like adults. This is so bad.

    • Huldah

      This resonates with my husband. He got baptized out of love for Jehovah and it was not motivated by guilt, but he suffered a lot as a child afterwards. More than I mentioned here because its so personal. Much like you have described.

  • Huldah

    My husband’s family is an ongoing saga of the absurdity of the WTO.

    My husband was baptized at 12. His mother ran around bragging it up much that he was the youngest in the family to ever get baptized. She did this so much that her highly competiitve daughter rushed to get baptized 5 months later so she could usurp his grandiose position.

    Competitive baptisms ! Sheesh!

    He’s not competitive by nature. It was all the girls.

    He often discusses the stresses it put upon him as a young boy to be pressured to pray in front of a group or handle the responsibilities of a baptized brother.

    It was a novelty that he was so young so it was cute to them to have him handle grown up responsibilities in the cong.

    Unfortunately, he was dealing with severe anxiety and was indescribably nervous speaking ( probably from having a dominating narcisstic mother and a father who won’t stand up to the females in the family).

    He was severely traumatized by the pressure and yes the GUILT. He often
    says he wishes he hadn’t known the truth until his thirties so he could have protected himself better.

    • Burt Reynolds

      The watchtower of the (near?) future…..Baptism. $100.00 (75% Genuine reduction for under fives. ‘Be an elder by the time you’re 10’…Guaranteed! Unhinged or Geriatric FREE!) Special offer: Nissan 14 Baptism! Get baptised by your favourite Governing Body Member at a special assembly of your choice! UN Building, DisneyLand, Russell’s Pyramid or Bethel Headquarters, only $20,000. Property accepted in lieu of cash. Feeling Guilty?! Spend your holiday waiting on the Governing Body Upper Table and get a 10% reduction on your contributions for 2 Weeks! ( only applies on contributions above $30,0000). I’d better stop before I catch terminal sarcasm and get struck off!

      • Huldah

        Too funny. You’re quite a prophet Lol.
        But I thought kids under 10 got in the baptismal pool free.?

        I forgot about the competition to be the youngest elder.

        Guess we dispense with
        1Timothy 3 when a good competition is at stake.

        , 6 not a newly converted man,+ for fear that he might get puffed up with pride and fall into the judgment passed on the Devil.

        • Beverly kenyon

          Bam! That scripture says it all! Fantastic! Ha!

    • Beverly kenyon

      That is so awful Huldah. So glad he found you as you can see right through them and together you’re strong team.

      • Huldah

        Kind of you to say. Our marriage rescued us both from soul destroying family situations and allowed us to make our own way in the truth. Neither of us having a good start made it quite challenging through the years though.

        I’m grateful we both now see through his family. For years we trusted them way too much because of their reputation in the organization. There’s a lot of anger for both us from being duped and manipulated for so long.

        The most dangerous ‘apostates’ are not the ones that stand outside conventions or have their own websites. They are those who have learned through generations how to almost imperceptibly distort the truth while propelling their agenda with titles and works right inside the organization. Like his family.
        All for glory and power over others.

        • The Raven

          Huldah quote:
          “The most dangerous ‘apostates’ are not the ones that stand outside conventions or have their own websites. They are those who have learned through generations how to almost imperceptibly distort the truth while propelling their agenda with titles and works right inside the organization. Like his family.
          All for glory and power over others.”

          VERY TRUE!

  • JTK

    all secular jobs are just different versions of working and hanging off garbage trucks.
    We hang on to them and they give us a ride through worldly life but in the end they all arrive at the waste tip.
    The key is knowing where it all leads and when to jump off the truck

    • Burt Reynolds

      It was said of Moses that when he died, he was ‘Old and satisfied with days…’, and that, after forty years in the wilderness! We all must be happy to be garbage men, I know, because an episode of the Simpsons said so, so it must be true…..
      ‘?The garbage man can, oh, the garbage man can….’ ?…I think you are very right….we have to know where we are going. We are soon to get a huge load of garbage thrown down on us from heaven…..not very green up there are they chucking this down on earth?!!!!!! and it’s us that will have to deal with it properly.

    • Joseph S.

      Great Analogy! Of this heap of sh#t we call life ??

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    Every body is talking about Child baptism this and that!! Have anyone of you thought that after Child baptism the child is encouraged to do more more and more there by discouraging him/her to attain higher education. I don’t know whether you all knew it or not in India if you are a degree holder you are not eligible to hold a position of MS or Elder from Jan-2017 on wards. Hence though I have all the qualification to become an elder I don’t have eligibility to appoint as an elder because I too am a degree holder in Electronics and Communication Engineering Branch.

    Is that scripturally correct?

    Is there any valid scriptural reasons that one should not gain higher and Jehovah bars such person’s to attain a responsible position in the congregation?

    Was not Moses (Acts: 7:22), Solomon, Daniel (Dan: 1:5) Luke (Col: 4:14) as well as Paul (Acts: 22:3) were all educated?

    Is not the education lifts our status of living rather than living in dungeons and poverty?

    Doesn’t it looks like more Pharisaical than liberal?

    The GB is Pharisees. The WTS says that Christendom is Pharisees, but do you know that Pharisees also worshiped. Is Christendom worship Jehovah. So those who worship Jehovah and do like Pharisees are aptly called as modern day Pharisees because they impose what is not found in the scriptures where is in the scripture it says that if you want to worship Jehovah you should not be highly educated? Keeping all this in my mind that is why I did completed my engineering in 2012.

    I know an auxiliary pioneer sister in my congregation who is doing B.Com 4th semester she stood first in her class. Our CO discouraged her to do more in pioneering work now she is a regular pioneer. Now she is going to discontinue her studies. My wife even advised her to do regular pioneering after completing her degree as she is going to complete 4th semester only two semester to go, we even advised by telling her an illustration. but she is strong enough to listen to the CO. See for the illustration below:-

    Well my(also my wife’s) point is that assume a RP sister without good education marries a brother, but the brother happened to be a useless fellow and spoils the life of the sister or think of the sister losing the (even a good) husband in accident or sickness. Will not the degree fetch that sister a decent job? If some one says Jehovah will look after you, is this act of not preparing and asking for Jehovah a help just as a person deliberately standing on a railway track in front of a speedy approaching train and ask Jehovah for help? Is that not foolish? If a child takes the baptism and grows up into a adolescent age and does some mistake they dis-fellowship, think of the metal agony of the child as their former friends and relatives are shunned by the congregation. Please help the Child to do education if possible higher education. So what is your opinion of Higher education I am asking for all brothers and sisters here in this website. Your input is appreciated as I am writing an article on this scripturally to prove that WTS is wrong..

    • The Raven

      The hypocrisy of this is clear when they have to go to highly educated liars to defend their azz from lawsuits. Back in the days when most folks were illiterate the church became the authority on all matters. Those who could read and took it upon themselves to study the word without the “guidance” of the priests were executed, many by burning. Something similar has happened here. The “execution” now becoming figurative.
      Higher education does not mean finer wisdom. But being learned could cause trouble for the org since people like that are harder to argue with and less likely to follow in lock step with them. They can get “ideas”.
      They took a page from the elite who have dumbed down the population through the schools and the media to make them easier to control. After all, they both want low information yes men.

      • Richard Long

        There are plenty of Illuminati “whistle-blowers” that readily admit they have infiltrated us all the way to the high table at bethel. Just more proof, not less, that JW’s are the prophetic anti-typical Israel as we have come to understand. No? This is the paradox Robert has explained to us, and that our friend Brian was not able to accept. As a congregation, the relentless pursuit of one innocuous, even worthy goal, “unity”, we worship Jehovah SO BADLY, but with all our hearts.

        To your point and Basa’s, Russell had a contemporary named J.D. Rockefeller who famously coined the term: “Competition is a sin”.

        • The Raven

          I too have made the argument for them being Jah’s people . I would still like to know why.

          • Burt Reynolds

            Me too. Interesting.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Is there such a thing as Illuminati? How do the infiltrate the watchtower and what do they do once they are there? It would drive me crazy within the day!

          • Richard Long
            • Burt Reynolds

              Thanks Richard. That was ‘illuminating!’

          • The Raven

            They are basically people who work in the interests of heavy hitters like banks, corporations, shadow governments. Many are members of secret societies like masons etc.
            edit: yep. Richard just posted the link.

        • The Raven

          BTW, they have infiltrated everyone, not just the WTO.

          • Richard Long

            Quite! They ARE the NWO, the counterfeit kingdom prreachers!

            • The Raven

              They are MUCH more than that. They are the true sons of the devil when you add up what they have been doing. Everyone of them from the London Mile to the federal reserve and all other elite societies they take a keen interest in religious matters. Makes you wonder why Russia REALLY kicked out the JWs. Eh?

            • Richard Long

              I’m in agreement, just trying not to throw Burt down a rabbit hole. Re: Russia and the JW’s, all of the above. Putin for his distrust of the JW’s as a foreign NGO, his orthodox allies for their adherence to Rockefeller’s competition is a sin mantra. We all had a lively discussion on this a couple months ago:

              https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-respond-russias-religious-ban/

            • The Raven

              I have no idea what that means. Bottom line, there is more to this than meets the eye. As I said, they have ALL been infiltrated.

            • Richard Long

              “trying not to throw Burt down a rabbit hole”

              Burt may or may not be acquainted with Illuminati conspiracy history.

            • The Raven

              Oh. I see what you mean now. lol

            • Burt Reynolds

              It’s ok. I’m quite comfortable down a rabbit hole……so long as no one sends down a ferret.

            • The Raven

              Hahaha! You have got a wicked clever sense of humor man! I like it!

            • Beverly kenyon

              So funny! Just the word, ‘ferret’ makes me laugh. Burt, you do cheer me up with your humour.

            • The Raven

              To clarify, the worlds religious institutions will support their leaders and even war. Bless the guns and the bullets and they all have chaplains to administer last rites. The JW’s will not do that. Putin and many other world leaders would have a problem with people who may sway others to a pacifist position in the event of a war. The JWs have also been infiltrated as have other NGOs and that compounds the problem he has with the spooks.
              But back to what I originally said about the reasons for the org not wanting people to pursue higher education. As Burt said the younger they get them the easier they are to influence and control. The media, press and academia have been colluding with TPTB to dumb down humanity to make them easier to exploit. This has resulted in folks accepting lies as truth because they have a real problem with critical thinking and their overlords like it that way. Anyone who balks at this or them is labeled an idiot or a troublemaker.
              The WTO never stated that the end would come in the 70s but they sure as heck implied it would. I remember them telling folks not to go to college or get their teeth fixed or build a house… the end is near. These folks got stuck with menial, low paying jobs and their families suffered because of this. When that went bust, they began encouraging baptism at very early ages to grab the next generation before they could finish school or broaden their horizons for better paying work.
              And the guilt…Yes. That and the very narrow scope of their lives in that so called “spiritual paradise” made it even harder for many of them to deal with the world we are all in.
              Are they God’s people? Yes they are and so are we. And we wait…

            • The Raven

              I know you are. Have you read “The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G. Edward Griffin?

              Excerpt:

              p272
              … the classical pattern of political conspiracy. This was the structure that made it possible for Quigley to differentiate between an international “network” and the secret society within that network. At the center, there is always a tiny group in complete control, with one man as the undisputed leader. Next is a circle of secondary leadership that, for the most part, is unaware of an inner core. They are led to believe that they are the inner-most ring.

              In time, as these conspiracies are built from the center out, they form additional rings of organization. Those in the outer echelons usually are idealists with an honest desire to improve the world. They never suspect an inner control for other purposes, and only those few who demonstrate a ruthless capacity for higher leadership are ever allowed to see it.

            • Richard Long

              Haven’t read the book per se, but handily familiar with his work, viewing his lectures, and on his websites.

            • The Raven

              It’s a good primer for understanding how we got where we are and the players who were instrumental in that. Robert has touched on a good bit of it and it is a conspiracy. It reveals the world’s monetary systems and explains why between THEM, “competition is a sin.”

              Excerpt.
              p428
              It is one of the least understood realities of modem history that many of America’s most prominent political and financial figures – then as now – have been willing to sacrifice the best interests of the United States in order to further their goal of creating a one-world government.

            • Richard Long

              Hey… see me? I’m back here in the choir… second row, third from the right…
              But you can keep preachin’ to me brother!

              what I meant wasIi do not have a copy of the book, have not read it cover to cover, but have read big chunks of it online, and heard Griffin himself elaborate on it. Did you notice earlier I used the term “conspiracy HISTORY” rather than “conspiracy THEORY”? I see all those old pirates as if they are the portrait of Dorian Grey, believe me!

            • The Raven

              Just checking. I wouldn’t doubt quite a few of the scoundrels have a painting hidden in a closet somewhere with a contract signed in blood.

            • Daisy d

              You could also be describing the construction of the WTS…its compartmentalising of the different components… Like… The r and file not having the same knowledge as Elders…Elders not having same information as COs, and climbing up to the top to the governing body who have spent decades enforcing what the very pinnacle of the pyramid dictates.
              Each level is kept in the dark and so busy, to the point of physical, mental and spiritual collapse that there’s no energy nor time left to think for themselves and check things out and its usually a life saving emotional reaction which induces a dramatic decision to take control of one’s life. Our amazing lively consciences coming to our aid.
              Hope that makes sense…and it looks like Beverly and me are having problems falling to sleep. Its gone 3am zzzzzzzzzzz

            • The Raven

              It works in diverse places. But I strongly suspect that at the very top these people are well aware of Robert and have in fact probably been “adjusting” their “light” based on his book and commentaries.

              They are such hypocrites. They ban apostate literature for the plebes but grant themselves the right to appropriate it for their own ends.

            • Beverly kenyon

              And your view is spot on Raven! True!

            • The Raven

              Hi Bev. Can you elaborate? I suspect it but Is there actually proof they are “stealing” Robert’s inspired work and trying to weave it in somehow? I don’t suppose they can or will abandon the biggest lies they promote but I’m curious to know if they have taken small bites.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Hiya, Raven, it has been mentioned here on this site that they have taken small bites, plagerised, nicked, borrowed some of RK’s work and I vaguely remember someone mentioning in a post ages ago, exactly which ‘bite’ they took but please don’t ask me exactly what Raven as my memory is ‘shot’. Rubbish memory. Perhaps, Ewatchman veterans like Joseph, Bklyn Kevin, KB, DA, Daisy might remember and help you out there. For me Raven, I’m trying to erase their false doctrines and even in some of Brother King’s articles when he references their beliefs in some articles I tend to skip that part as I don’t want any of their funky beliefs clogging up brain space and I want to just concentrate on real Bible truths and I’ve only seen some of their vids in bits. I used to wanna talk to witnesses and warn them now I just can’t be bothered….I have completely cut myself off as the scales are now completely removed from my eyes, I now want no part of any of it! I only associate here on this site and obviously read material on Perimeno, Baruq. Sorry Raven that I’ve been of no use but hopefully someone will step in with the information for you.

            • The Raven

              Thank you for replying, Bev. I understand where you’re coming from as many here have said as well. I do try to keep that in mind when I pose questions. Disqus is not exactly conducive to the subtleties and nuances of tone or speech when conveying certain ideas and I apologize if I come off sounding harsh or confrontational. I can assure you I am sitting here grinning like an idiot most of the time!
              I only had a few months of dealings with the WTO before I struck out on my own so I was not subject to that level of psychological trauma but I have seen it and known many who were in the subsequent decades. They flipped all the switches in me to the truth but somewhere along the line they got their circuits crossed. I bailed on prophetic falsehoods. I too never went back.
              Do what you feel right and I commend everyone who seeks truth even though we may not all be in agreement in all matters at all times, we are all doing what we should be; examining God’s word.
              Thank you again, Bev.

            • Beverly kenyon

              Awww, there’s no need to apologise for anything. I love the things you’re saying and as for harsh and confrontational, I beat you you there, lol, even though I don’t want to be but I think it’s a personality thing. At first when you flew in I thought, I thought, this ‘bird’ has got proper attitude and it needs shooting right out the sky but I couldn’t ignore the things you were saying as it all made sense and you came across as intelligent and absolutely knew what you were talking about and then when you started laughing at Burt’s jokes, I thought this guy is alright, he has a sense of humour. Btw, I’ve just noticed I’ve repeated myself above…I think too fast but my stupid fingers can’t type fast enough to keep up. We might not agree with all things but we’re still on the right track to truth. Thomas the ‘doubter’ didn’t believe about Jesus’ appearance after his death so he wasn’t in agreement with rest of the Apostles but of course he was still in unison with them on all other matters. Don’t know if that’s a good example but it’s what popped in my mind. I’ve noticed Black Curtain has reached out to you Raven…I absolutely love what Black Curtain says, he makes a person really think and he’s super clever as he works in Law. There’s some really super smart educated spiritually way up there ones on this site and your bird man appearance adds to that list Raven. KB is an expert on JW history so he might help with your question but it did happen.

            • The Raven

              LOL! I like the fact that people are passionate about this and the atmosphere can go from serene to raucous in seconds! It’s a lot more engaging than sites where people just sit there and are too afraid to comment. Even the crickets leave after awhile. That’s NO way to learn. This place is alive and fluid. Especially when folks are knee deep in “discussion”.
              My kind of folks! 🙂

            • Beverly kenyon

              Raven, if you want lively, you flew into the right site! There are some big personalities here and others who pop back in, like Black Curtain! You won’t find many here sedately say, ‘pass the peas please’. Lol. We’re definitely not ‘pass the peas please’ people. More like, are ya gonna pass those peas or whaat! Lol. You would’ve loved a sister called, Annie, she was friends with Daisy but she went off. She was lively, very clever and so funny! Wish you could’ve met her. Never mind. I’ve learnt so much here Raven and have gotten to know the most amazing people, ones like yourself that I would never have come across, well, not in this system. I’m off to work shortly. Yeah, that dirty word, work! Back to the daily grind! Ugh!

            • The Raven

              LOL! Pass the peas! Have a great day , Bev.

    • The Raven

      In light of all the insight we have on the falsehoods the org has been teaching if you don’t mind my asking, why would you wish to become an elder?

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        I don’t have any interest for becoming an elder because if I become I don’t have freedom of speech and I will be forced to teach what WTS teaches including 1914. Before seeing this website I thought of becoming an elder but as the days went my interest in organization faded away. Only after seeing this website in 2010 my interest in spiritual matters once again regained but at the same time I also understood that those who take the lead in teaching has heavy responsibility before God and Christ, therefore I restrained from becoming an elder.But why I asked means there in no connection between degree and holding responsibility in the congregation. Yes I will never become an elder.

        • The Raven

          Ah. I see. Thank you for replying. Several of us have been talking about this since you asked the question and I had not known that you could not become an elder if you held a degree since January 2017. You’re right , they will muzzle you. They watch their generals much more closely than their soldiers. I like reading your comments on scripture and you made me curious about the question. Thank you again.

    • Burt Reynolds

      Jesus was a quailed carpenter. I don’t know if being perfect makes you perfect at what you do, or what would learning be for? But one could guarantee that he would have been able to appreciate wood, it’s grain, growth and moisture content and suitability. I can’t imagine Jesus just banging in nails where he should be making a dovetail. Jehovah certainly qualifies as a quantum physicist and the world’s best surgeon, having made the female species out of a single rib. Basavaraj, you are not going to be able to make the blind see.

      • The Raven

        I agree. To deviate one iota from required views is apostasy in their eyes. Even stealth mode won’t work with these people since they rat you out for the most insignificant crap. Stalin would have been proud.

    • Richard Long

      I wish you the best in you endeavor, Basa, and you will, no doubt prove the WTS wrong! If your aim is to free sheep from bondage you will have some success. If your aim is to reform the WTS, you are likely to have to settle for something less than success. No doubt you know of CARL OLOF JONSSON. May Jehovah keep you and strengthen you as you contend with the man of lawlessness for the lives of His sheep!

    • John 3:16

      1 Kings 4

      29  And God gave Solʹo·mon wisdom and discernment in very great measure and a broadness of heart* like the sand on the seashore.+ 30  Solʹo·mon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt.+ 31  He was wiser than any other man, wiser than Eʹthan+ the Ezʹra·hite and Heʹman,+Calʹcol,+ and Darʹda, the sons of Maʹhol; his fame spread among all the surrounding nations.+ 32  He composed* 3,000 proverbs+ and his songs+ numbered 1,005. 33  He would speak about the trees, from the cedar in Lebʹa·non to the hyssop+ that grows on the wall; he would speak about the animals,+ the birds,*+ the creeping things,*+ and the fish. 34  People from all the nations came to hear Solʹo·mon’s wisdom, including kings from all over the earth who had heard about his wisdom.+

      As long as you have your priorities straight, it doesn’t sound to me like Jehovah has a problem with higher education at all.

    • Huldah

      Interesting. I meant to ask about the degree holder not being allowed to serve. Why would that be in India only?

      • Burt Reynolds

        British colonialism and influence on the Raj ! But seriously, I would think it is a cultural issue that has gained influence from the bethel in India and that headquarters approve of. The ‘teacher’ in India is sacrosanct. It is rude to question a teacher. Even insulting. And their word is truth. It’s just not done to question. (I’m generalising). I taught social work to one or two students from India and it’s true to say they just sat there and questioned nothing and after some investigation, because we were very puzzled about the attitude, we stumbled on this cultural fact. You can see it at work in India if you look at the Culture of the holy seers and how people sit at their feet and take it all in. We do it ourselves in the watchtower!
        Thus it is that someone who is degree educated would be seen as a ‘teacher’ and thus a threat to the watchtower and of course, the uneducated elders fear they would loose control over their congregation along with the bethel of course. It’s a power game, a tactical weapon of control. I would not question the desire to be an elder and to speak truth, but the watchtower would not give in and the pressure to conform would be tremendous. I think Robert’s solution to it is the most effective course of action.

    • muldoon55 .

      That’s just unreasonable

  • Peaceful Waters

    I was fresh blood I guess you could say when I first came into “the truth”. In the respect that I had no immediate family or friends that were Witnesses. Mind you my boyfriend’s (now my husband) mother was, but that’s a long story. My point is, that after I was baptised, the push to have my son baptised always bothered me greatly. I love Jehovah and I love HIS truth and I didn’t ever see the scriptural backing and justification for him to get him baptised so young. He was then around 11-12.
    That was actually the catalyst that started me on my researching journey, which later lead to being awakened to TTATT. There were many discussions with more mature christians in the congregation and elders that would always make me feel bad or guilty or questioning what was wrong with me because I didn’t feel it was right. It is the most important decision of his life to dedicate himself to Jehovah God and I didn’t want him not to be old enough to be able to make that whole souled and whole heartedely. Not something to be taken lightly.
    We had many young ones in our congregation and there were always brothers out in service asking my son when he was getting baptised. We took very well to the truth and advanced quickly and naturally were given a lot of attention. I don’t belive that many of their intentions were malicious, but now knowing what I do certainly disturbs me.
    Too bad I didn’t have this article back then! It would have helped me at least feel justified. I hope this topic can help bring some guidance to other parents who may be facing this situation or for children themselves. I do believe there were several reasons why Jesus was 30. Thanks for another insightful and thought provoking article!

    • Burt Reynolds

      As I understand it, Jesus had to be thirty years old to qualify as a ‘priest’ under the Jewish system. At least that is what I was told at the KH.

      • Beverly kenyon

        That’s true Burt. And I’m probably wrong but the duration of the priestly duties lasted 3 1/2 years. Jesus kept to Jehovahs Law to the letter regarding priestly duties and he took up his priestly duties during the Great Sabbath and wasn’t he called, Lord of the Sabbath, trying to remember off the top of my head.

        • Peaceful Waters

          Sounds like I have a new family worship project 🙂

        • Burt Reynolds

          Well what you say reflects the scriptural pattern that seems to follow all things in prophesy….ordered and reflective. I didn’t think of the 3 1/2 year ministry so that’s reassuring scripturally.

      • Peaceful Waters

        Wow. I didn’t know that Burt. No one at the KH ever mentioned anything like that.

        • Richard Long

          Yeah, that was a staple when I was active.

      • That’s because in Jewish culture you’re not a man until you’re 30 years old. If Jesus had lived in our times he would have been classed as a lazy person, spiritually weak by Tony Morris and company for not being baptised and being a servant at 23.

        • Burt Reynolds

          Right! Sounds like s good policy….but Antony Morris is right about major spiritual issues…the invisible parousia, 1914, the generations, tight pants, the need for a new headquarters…surely he must be right about infant baptism?

    • L.H.

      It must have been a hard time Peacefull Waters, but maybe your disturbing feelings saved you.
      I felt more “group-pressure” witin the congregation than I ever felt in “the world”!

      • Peaceful Waters

        Funny you say that LH because I’ve often thought the same thing. More pressure I think because of the feeling accountable to Jehovah. There is definitely a very real kind of “peer pressure” that develops in the organization.

      • L.H.

        Aha, peer pressure…. Learned something new.

  • muldoon55 .

    This is such a good article, thank you Robert. Not only does the org not follow the 1st century congregation pattern for babtism with regard to age but if i may drift off topic slightly, they also burden candidates with what could be characterized as a pre babtism brain washing program with those 80 questions (now 104, with many optional questions, which was accomplished over many weeks overseen by 3 elders who would then deem you worthy of babtism.
    Sure i can see the importance of knowing basic bible truths ,but when a person has come to the decision in their heart to serve Jehovah, what prevents such from babtism?
    Note in the book of Acts several accounts of persons who were babtized after even only a one day visit from Peter. There was the jailer in Phillipi and his family, Lydia and her household, and Cornelious and his house hold, There was Simon the magician,whose immaturity was evident when he offered money to Peter for the holy spirit, and also the thousands at pentecost who were babtized shortly after Peters talk.
    Phillip and the ethiopian eunuch and the short chariot ride they took before the eunuch experienced a heart felt desire for babtism.
    And let us not forget Paul who shortly after recovering sight was babtized.
    The following is a portion of those questions that impress upon the candidate the orgs role in the congregation:
    Submission in the Congregation Arrangement

    (157) What is the basic principle underlying Jehovah’s arrangement of things within the Christian congregation?

    (158) Why is there a particular need for submitting to Jehovah’s arrangement of things in the Christian congregation?

    (159) What are some of the examples of Jesus’ disciples submitting to
    his instructions in order to carry out their ministry in an orderly way?

    (160) How does Jesus exercise headship over the Christian congregation today?

    (161) By what visible means is Christ’s headship represented in the congregation?

    (162) How do members of the congregation demonstrate submission to the headship of Christ in the congregation?

    Optional questions

    (163) Are you able to identify “the faithful and discreet slave” today?

    (164) How?

    (165) What is the Governing Body of the Christian congregation?

    (166) What purpose does it serve?

    (167) What legal agencies are used by the Governing Body today to accomplish the publishing of the good news worldwide?

    (168) Why would submitting to Jehovah’s arrangement in the congregation
    include giving material support to the work of the congregation to the
    extent of your ability?
    These,along with the actual questions asked at the time of babtism put unwarranted attention on the org.

    • Burt Reynolds

      It was very dissapointing to read these questions. I had no idea that things had become so appalling to even think that these questions had some validation of devotion to ones faith. These questions are not about faith, but about understanding corporate administration rules and regulations. When I was at work, we had what was called ‘The Blue Book’ and which had to be referred to in all cases of staff administration. These questions for baptism bear no insight whatsoever into the heartfelt understanding of the person; their concept of faith; their understanding of the ransom and so on. These questions are no more than a job application, and I for one would not apply. In fact, if I was an interested person today, I would be overwhelm at the prospect of having to remember and carry out all these instructions. I don’t think I would even get an interview! What has become of the house of Jehovah!?

    • Craig

      An overwhelming amount of emphasis is placed upon the organisation in all aspects of worship, it also seems that baptism has developed a legalistic/pharisaical approach in relation to the organisation. There’s an alleged letter, or at least excerpts from a letter by Watchtower lawyer Philip Brumley in relation to the legal aspects of baptism that would seem to support this idea, I won’t post it here as I can’t verify the authenticity of it.
      Has anybody else seen this letter or heard of it?

      • muldoon55 .

        I have not unfortunately

  • Jim

    I do not wish to be critical, but I have never understood why our brothers think that the baptism of a young child, be it 7,8 or even 13 or 14 is a good idea. I understand the rejection of infant baptism, but this really is not much different. This a big decision that must be made by a mature person. Making a lifelong commitment to the Most High being in all the universe cannot be made by a child. Heck, I was 21 when I was baptized, and as I look back I STILL wasn’t ready, did not fully understand that this was the most serious thing one could ever do. Just sayin….

    • Richard Long

      Just sayin’ and just proving Robert’s point! I was 26, and not really ready.

    • Burt Reynolds

      I would assume they approve infant baptism primarily because they are told that it’s a good thing by the governing body. As with most insecure thinking, they like to create a utopia, a facade of safety, with everyone gathered in, the fences up, Jehovah posted at the door. Owned, lock, stock and barrel. Everyone doing as they are told, money coming in, the governing body guiding and in control. That they cannot be mindful of the development needs of a child is made abundantly clear by their provision to hide those who would do them wrong, just as that policy ‘safeguard’ is there to deny anything could possibly be wrong! Even if one were to think the best of the governing body and forgive them their errors as imperfect men, even the most religiously intransigent of us would know in their heart that infant baptism means nothing to the child, bar pleasing its parents, nothing to Jehovah, because it is not done with understanding but everything to the governing body. What other possible motive could their be?

    • Jamie Mac

      Hi Jim, what your just saying makes sense to me. My wife keeps telling me that getting married to her was the most serious thing I would ever undertake. Of course I agreed with her 🙂

  • Ken Rosenberg

    I don’t know what you did, but the site seems way more responsive now, I can scroll over disqus too, and I can see the scroll bar.

    • Indeed, the power of the tweak! Thanks for your input

  • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

    I totally agree with Robert King. He always explains in greater detail and that should be appreciated. But the point is I don’t know how many especially brothers and sisters associating in this website have
    missed this important point. Why I am specifically mentioning brothers and sisters associating in this website because we all know we are much enlightened than the WTS by the help of Jehovah and Jesus through our dear brother Robert King. Well I agree that sometimes however clever we may be we all ignore, I thought others will bring this point that is why I have waited this long before posting my view point.

    Well let me come to the point directly. Let me put those things in a nut shell directly from the scriptures spoken from the mouth of Jehovah regarding when a person can be considered as matured so that whatever decisions they take can be consider seriously.

    Well we all know that if we read Numbers chapter32 especially verse 9 it says they discouraged the people of Israel from going into the land that Jehovah was to give them. That is a serious mistake. What is the punishment? Read Num:32:11: ‘The men who came up out of Egypt from 20 years old and up will not see the land of which I have sworn to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because they have not followed me wholeheartedly. Can you see the age Jehovah sets so that any mistake done by the person can be
    considered as a serious mistake? The WTS never get this point!!

    We all know that a person is considered as JW only after baptism even a marriage can solemnized with a JW. The publisher card is opened only after baptism. Now who are we? 2nd Thimothy:2:3: So we become soldiers of Christ only after baptism as per WTS.

    Now read Num: 1:45: All the Israelites from 20 years old and up who could serve in the army in Israel were registered by their paternal house. What is the minimum age limit that was set by Jehovah to become a physical soldier of the ancient Israeli army? It is again 20. So from age 20 on wards the maturity to make decisions starts as per Bible.

    See our Jehovah’s army commander in Chief Jesus Christ himself dedicated to Jehovah when he was about 30 years about a decade more than what is mentioned in Numbers: 1:45 and 32:11. What is the
    point in that? That is age of maturity to take decision (on spiritual matters) or baptism vow with Jehovah through Jesus. See the baptisms is once for all dedication to Jehovah and it is a serious matter. So in a nut shell a person who is around as small as 9, 12, 14 or even 20 should not be baptized, they should
    give ample time to decide themselves if they want become JW and remain as per the dedication vows. A child who gets baptized at age 10 as he/she grows the thinking changes and they are more prone to do all sorts of things when they attain the age 14, so my advice is to allow the person to take their own decision until then try bringing the children up in the mental regulating of Jehovah. Rest leave it as per Deut:30:19-20.

    • muldoon55 .

      Thanx Basavaraj,most enlightening about the 20 year age requirement

      • Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

        Oh thanks a lot I want to exchange my ideas with others take my email easajw@gmail.com

  • Cathii D’Anthonii

    Jehovahs judgments are coming. Pray for our spiritual family

  • Burt Reynolds

    Just read your tweet, Robert, on the financial state in Europe. And you guys just a few weeks away from a negative dollar…whatever that may be! Being strapped for cash is going to take on a whole new meaning if this report has substance. Let’s pray for Jehovah’s strong arm.

  • trudy

    It is wrong to baptise a child this is just as bad as letting your child have a sex change I mean they are putting a strain on children to decide is they are male or female to quickly fit into a tick box.I see no children in the bible get baptize ,was Jesue just 30 what was he saying that you need to be in a mind set of understanding and he knew so much more then any other person on earth .Lets face it if your son is baptized they have to give a group of older woman on felid service the prayer etc .Also he would be higher than the mother if single parent. Even my friend who is 55 her son who has immature ways be the head of the house hold because he is male .The baptised is to do with numbers .I gave up getting baptise myself 3 times ,,something was just not right ..I hated to be cheered on the platform in being unbaptised publisher .. I wanted it to be private and carry on as normal .They always gave me 6 mths each time ,even that I had started one bible study and time preaching gibing out bibles and loads of mag that I never read half the time .it was never ever good enough .Oh your not ready .loops and hoops telling me when I was good enough and the other jws would think so to .I thought it was up to me not them .

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