Jesus Christ
Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have a very special bond – even a unique relationship. Long before he was born to the Jewish virgin, Mary, Jesus had been born as a spirit and Jehovah was his Father.
Although it is humanly incomprehensible the Almighty, Jehovah, was alone for an eternity. But when God became a Creator his very first creation was the spirit creature that eventually became the man, Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus is called “the firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14)
God made the first spirit in his exact likeness and representation. (Hebrews 1:3) As a demonstration of his great love and unselfishness Jehovah God then willed that his firstborn son should share in the joy of the creation of all else. So it is, that, the Scriptures reveal that it was by means of his firstborn son Jehovah created all other things in the heavens and on earth. That is why we read in Genesis concerning the creation of Adam and Eve that God spoke to an unnamed entity saying: ‘Let us make man in our image and our likeness.’
God's firstborn son has the unique privilege of being the only creature that God directly created. All other creation including the mighty angels, were created through Jesus, or through the Word, as he was titled in his prehuman existence. This is why Jesus referred to himself as the only-begotten Son of God. He was the only son that Jehovah fathered directly. All other sons were begotten through the agency of the firstborn.
(In the Bible the word that is translated as “only-begotten” (monogenes) was also used in connection with earthly children to mean that they were the only child of a parent, being without siblings. In the case of Jesus, only-begotton similarly means that he is a one-of-a-kind and has a unique relationship with Jehovah.)
Because of his close relationship with his Father, Jesus knows Jehovah as no one else does. That is why Jesus said no one knows the Father but the Son. It is Jesus’ purpose to reveal and explain the Father to those who are so favored.
IS JESUS GOD?
From the beginning of the Watchtower Society the Bible Students rejected the popular belief that God is a Trinity. The fact is, the persistent and pervasive belief that Jesus Christ is/was God is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated in the name of religion. (How did the Trinity Develop?- Watchtower) Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Trinity as a pagan belief that has been transplanted into what is now passed off as an essential article of Christian faith. The notion that God and Jesus and the holy spirit comprise a three-in-one Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Nor did Jesus himself ever claim that he was God. On the contrary, Jesus always referred to himself as the Son and his Father as God.
Over the centuries ardent Trinitarian believers have scoured the Scriptures to try to stitch together support for the mythological Trinity. Worse, Bible translators have skewed the translation of various scriptures so as to lend support to the Trinity.
A classic example of such biased Bible translation is the rendering of John 1:1. For the unfamiliar, most translations of that verse say: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
The original Greek did not have the equivalent of an indefinite article (a and an). So in order to distinguish between the specific and non-specific the Greek uses the definite article (the). At John 1:1 there are two entities. The Word and God. To distinguish them the Greek literally says that ‘the Word was with the God and the Word was God.’ Of course, the verse is not translated using “the” before the first God. That is not how English sentence structure works. To properly translate that verse into English the indefinite article ought to be used in connection with the Word. Trinitarian translators do this with other verses but refuse to do so at John 1:1. For example, Acts 28:6, which reads: “The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.” (NIV) Like John 1:1, Acts 28:6 does not contain the indefinite article. It states that the people said he was God. The translators realize, though, that the superstitious Maltese people imagined Paul was one of the pantheon of Greek gods. And so they insert the indefinite article to reflect the true meaning of the Greek. The same should be done with John 1:1, as it is obvious that the context warrants such.
Reasoning on John 1:1, the Word is said to be with God “in the beginning.” But God had no beginning. If the Word is co-eternal than it would be inappropriate to speak of a beginning. The Word was the beginning of God’s creation. Hence, that is why he was with God in the beginning.
The Trinity doctrine and the equally nonsensical Oneness doctrine peculiar to Pentecostalism, turn the meanings of words and basic concepts upside down. As an example, throughout the Scriptures Jesus is portrayed as the Son of God. He always referred to Jehovah as both his God and Father. In areas outside of trinitarian theology it is recognized that the father/son relationship means that the father gives birth to and precedes his own son. Not so in trinitarian and Oneness theology. Theology has effectively rendered the father/son relationship meaningless. Jesus had no beginning, according to Trinity believers. Why Jesus referred to himself as a son and God as a Father is anyone's guess because it bears no resemblance to the father/son relationship common in the human sphere. It would seem that God deliberately wants to confuse people.
Other aspects of the Trinity are equally absurd. Take the fact that Jesus prayed to God, even supplicating him for strength and assistance. In fact, the apostle Paul stated that Jesus implored God with strong outcries and tears and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Are we to assume that Jesus feared himself; that he prayed to and worshiped himself? The Scriptures reveal that Jesus obeyed God. On the night of Jesus' arrest he implored God to take this cup away from him, 'but not as I will, but as you will.' In other words, Jesus submitted himself to the will of Jehovah and did not act upon his own wish. Furthermore, at John 14:31 Jesus stated the following: "I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me, but, in order for the world to know that I love the Father, even as the Father has given me commandment to do, so I am doing." According to Jesus it is Jehovah's will that the world come to know that Jesus loves him and, as Jesus stated, God had, in fact, commanded him to do so. But if God were three in one, as is commonly believed, that would mean that God commanded himself to love himself. These are just a few of many, many absurdities that people unwittingly embrace when they accept the the Trinity.
Jesus repeatedly stated that what he spoke and taught was not his own teaching but came from his Father. Even more to the point, Jesus said that he did nothing of his own initiative, but only what his Father taught him. But there are even more absurdities inherent in the notion that Jesus was/is God. Consider the fact that God gives his throne to Jesus and that Jesus rules in behalf of Jehovah but after 1,000 years Jesus turns the kingdom back over to God and Jesus submits himself to God. So, the Trinity doctrine would have us believe that God gives himself his own throne but then gives it back to himself. How ridiculous!
Any rationale person who reads the Gospels who is unindoctrinated would never come to the conclusion that Jesus was part of some mysterious three-persons-in-one-God or one God with three manifestations, as in Oneness. Jehovah's Witnesses teach the truth as regards the nature of Jesus and the relationship Christ has with Jehovah God.
watchman
Reader Comments (29)
Excellent part of your site Robert. Give people the important basics, the fundamental truths & teachings of the Bible - Keep it simple (to begin with) - It all gets a bit confusing when delving in to prophecy interpretation.
It is equally a pagan belief for Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence. People who are teaching this nonsense as well as the Trinity are under the spell of vain philosophy and teachings of men.
For centuries people have been debating Jesus' origin. Is he part of a Trinity, and more recently, is he Michael the Archangel?
The Bible provides a very simple answer. Gabriel did not tell Mary that God was going to transfer a preexisting life into her womb, in this instance, Michael, as presently taught by the Watchtower. He said that Mary will "conceive" in her womb and give birth to a son, "begotten" of the Holy Spirit.
This is a unique event in the entire universe. God has not brought anyone else into existence in this manner. That is why Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Why is this so hard for people to understand, misinterpreting John 1:1 and other scriptures, turning them up side down as it were to fit them with pagan beliefs and myths?
For example, did Jesus say he “actually” existed before Abraham? That would certainly confused Gabriel’s words, wouldn’t it? Jesus existed before Abraham in the sense that he is the central figure of God’s grand architectural plan or design from the “beginning.” That’s what Jesus meant, which the Jews failed to understand as they proceeded to pick up stones to throw at him.
As the Lamb of God, Jesus is said to have been slaughtered from the “foundation” of the world, not meaning that he was actually put to death in the beginning. So if he was not actually slaughtered in the beginning, neither did he actually pre-exist. Otherwise, he would not have qualified as the “last Adam,” providing a “corresponding” ransom for all, unless, of course, Adam also actually pre-existed.
The fact of the matter is a powerful and preeminent angel, the one that became Satan the Devil, didn’t like God’s plan or “word” that was in the beginning with God, personified as “the Word” in our translation of the Bible. It stood in his way, because he wanted to be “like God.”
Isn’t that what your Bible says? Why put a pagan or mythological twist into it? “The word became flesh” doesn’t mean it was actually Jesus in the beginning with God. It became flesh because Jesus lived his life in perfect harmony with God’s word, fulfilling it to the letter.
God who’s able to read hearts knew that a rebellious situation or “enmity” was going to develop, as he later revealed in the first recorded prophecy, Genesis 3:15:
“And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”
This prophecy would make no sense if the seed planted in Mary’s womb already existed as a powerful spirit being in the heavens with God. However, it would make perfect sense if the seed that became Jesus was at the center of God’s plan from the beginning. Therefore, God could not have transferred a pre-existing life into Mary’s womb. He sowed a perfect seed.
Thus the angel said to Mary:
“You will CONCEIVE in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom.”
A Stone Crying Out,
Hey stone old boy, as fallible as man is, they are (and you) are doing the best they can with the LIMITED information available.
The trouble is, everybody wants to split hairs and push certain agendas.
How sad so many will perish because of pride and ego.
It is a fact: Mankind will receive what they deserve at several appointed times....
As all Jehovah’s Witnesses know God is not a Trinity or triune God. But what about the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel as maintained by the Watchtower since the 1930’s? From 1879, the Watchtower vacillated in its opinion as to the identity of Michael.
1. He was an angel that worships Jesus. --Zion’s Watch Tower 1879 November p. 4
2. The Pope and Antichrist. --Zion’s Watch Tower 1879 December p.6
3. The pre-human Jesus Christ. --Zion’s Watch Tower 1883 June p.3
4. The Pope again. --The Finished Mystery 1917 p. 188
5. Jesus in heaven for many years since the 1930’s. --Watchtower 1984 December 15 p.26
Just as Jehovah’s Witnesses find the Trinity doctrine unacceptable, they will also find, at some point in the future, that the idea that Michael is Jesus in his prehuman condition is no where taught in Scripture. It is a wholly fabricated or artificial belief.
Jesus is “the Prince,” “Lord of lords” and “King of kings,” not “one of the foremost princes,” mentioned in Daniel 10:13. He has been exalted (from his human beginning) higher than the angels, having inherited a name more excellent than theirs. This could not be true if he was already Michael, existing as “the Word” in the beginning with God.
Again the “WORD” that was in the beginning with God is God’s plan of creation centered on Jesus, who was later conceived (brought into existence), born of a virgin, through the operation of God’s Holy Spirit or active force.
When Jesus comes as “King of kings” to execute God’s judgment, he comes with all the holy angels at his disposition. They will serve as the agency through which he will accomplish God’s will to bring to “ruin those ruining the earth.”
Thus when Michael stands up in a time of unparalleled distress to come upon the entire inhabited earth, it will be through the executive order coming from Jesus, as all authority has been given him in heaven and on earth.
Well, WHY don't you pose this question and your information to the Watchman and see what he has to say about it? ..The guy called Robert King. I am sure the answer given will be truthful and accurate as possible with the current available information!
Sounds like a good suggestion to me......what about you?
Here are some good biblical suggestions:
“God knows from the beginning the finale.” (Isa 46:10) So from the beginning he foresaw that Jesus would carry out the Father's will. That Jesus would lay down his life to bring the universe into a harmonious whole. It was upon this premise centered upon Jesus who was yet to come into existence that God proceeded to become the Creator. Thus we read in Genesis 1:1:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Based upon these facts it is easy to understand why Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" or "the beginning of the creation by God." For example, a wheel requires a center piece through which an axle can be fitted for a machine as simple as a wheelbarrow to function. Contrary to Jesus who upheld God’s word, Adam rebelled against God. He became ill-fitted to carry out God’s will for the earth.
Thus through Jesus God will bring about the new earth and new heaven promised in Scripture. “Then the Son will subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” –1 Cor 15:28
Angels were the first beings that God brought into existence. Evidently, God spoke to them when he said “let us make man in our image.” Later a third of these angelic sons of God rebelled against their Maker. How was God going to remedy the situation? He had the remedy from the very beginning, spoken in Genesis as the seed of the woman. In time, this seed proves to be Jesus Christ.
Paul explains how Jesus came “to be” as recorded in Galatians 4:4: “But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman.” No one who came to be out of a woman had a prior existence, unless we want to venture into myths and legends.
Jesus Christ as “the last Adam” had to match Adam in perfection to provide a “corresponding” ransom for the redemption of mankind. Therefore, if we want to talk about preexistence, Jesus preexisted in God’s mind and plan just as Adam did. However, their actual existence began in real time, as when Adam was created and Jesus was begotten by Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb.
Thus, we can understand why the holy angels were glad when Jesus was born, coming into actual existence. They have been awaiting his arrival ever since rebellion marred God’s universe. They know that it is only through Jesus that God will become “all things to everyone,” when the creation regains its original integrity.
How it is that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” if he came into actual existence some four thousand years after the creation of Adam? It is because God made him the firstborn, in keeping with the divine plan from the beginning.
It’s important to note that with God "firstborn" does not necessarily mean first in chronological order. It can also mean first in "rank" or "preeminence," as in having acquired a position of honor at God’s right hand, in the case of Jesus. Thus God could say of Jesus as recorded in Psalm 89:27: "I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth."
In all of this there is a profound lesson to learn. Harmony among God’s intelligent creation depends on love and humility, not might and strength. That is why on many occasions God told the Israelites not to increase horses for themselves, as in pursuing military might, but to love and trust God. That is what Jesus did. He loved and trusted God down to the bitter end, and earned the right of “firstborn” at God’s right hand. –Isa 31:1; De 17:16; Eze 17:15; Heb 1:3; 1 Pe 3:22
Many scriptures have been improperly rendered or translated by Trinitarians to say that Christ was actually in the beginning with God. Some venture into saying that Jesus, like God, had no beginning. This has created many flaws in the three main branches of religion that trace their roots to Abraham --Judaism, Christianity and Islam. No guest work is needed as to who is the culprit behind this. –John 8:44
Please tell us something we don't already know.
For those that "don't already know" ...
Although the Watchtower rejects the Trinity doctrine and many man-made traditions, it is not yet free of all forms of paganism.
For example, what is the difference between Christendom's teaching that Jesus is God and the Watchtower's teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael? Both teachings support pagan concepts of incarnation and soul transmigration.
Therefore, the Watchtower’s teaching about Michael and Jesus is not a far cry from Christendom's nonsensical Trinity doctrine. The fact of the matter is Jesus and Michael does not share the same identity.
Jesus bravely fought a spiritual battle against the devil and won, and earned the position of being highly favored at God's right hand. He did not exist in heaven as Michael prior to his conception in Mary’s womb. Neither did he exist as part of a triune God as taught by Christendom. Otherwise, his exaltation to God's right hand would make no sense.
God never said to any angel to sit at his right hand side. (Heb 1:13) That position was reserved for a perfect HUMAN Son of God, who would sanctify God's name and vindicate God's sovereignty in full view of a watching universe in Adam’s place who failed to carry out God’s will for the earth. –Heb 2:7, 9.
Michael is an archangel and “one of the foremost princes” that upholds God’s universal law, usually in warfare against God's archenemy, the devil. He is totally committed to God along with the faithful angels in support of God's plan through Jesus to bring the universe back to its original whole, but he did not become the seed of the woman referred to in Genesis 3:15. Seeds don't exist as something else before they become seeds. They are genetically engineered by God from his vast reservoir of knowledge.
When the Bible says that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, it is in connection of the new creation to come that God is unfolding through Jesus according to his PLAN from the very beginning. Jesus, the perfect human Son of God understood what was at stake, and played out the script God outlined for him when he came into actual existence.
Now that he is exalted to God's right hand, he is in a unique position to bring God's plan to fruition. This is how we are to understand that the "Word" became flesh, as it consists of God's plan being fulfilled in the person of Jesus. John understood that. He didn’t think that Jesus was part of a triune God or Michael for that matter.
Thus we can understand why God spoke of a seed that will bruise the head of the serpent. Jesus, the promise seed, had his origin (genesis) in the womb of a virgin. (Mat 1:18) To get to the truth we do well to ask: Where was Adam before he was created? And where was Jesus before he was conceived? If we don't get the same answer for both questions, then we cannot understand why Jesus is called "the last Adam," and how he was able to lay down his perfect human life as a “corresponding” ransom to redeem mankind from sin and death.
The Watchtower would have us believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence, and that he is the only human being ever to walk the earth, having a prior existence as a spirit being in the heavens. That of course favors the pagan idea of incarnation, which stands in stark contrast to the angel's declaration to Mary that she would “conceive” and give birth to a son “begotten” of holy spirit. –Mat 1:20.
The Watchtower went so far as to say that during his baptism in the Jordan River, God revealed or opened Jesus' mind as to his prior existence in the heavens; whereas the account merely tells us of God's acknowledgment of his Son having come to do the Father's will. On that occasion God empowered Jesus with holy spirit to carry out his earthly mission.
When the Bible talks about Jesus existing in God's form, emptying himself and taking the form of a slave, is it saying that Jesus was in heaven with God prior to his human existence? To exist in God's form means to bear God's image and as a perfect human being, Jesus bear God's image as was the case with Adam.
However, unlike Adam, Jesus lovingly and courageously upheld God's sovereignty. He did not seek equality with God as something to grasp for, as sought by the devil. He thereby emptied himself, taking the form of a slave. It was because of such humility on his part that he was able to accomplish God’s will and not his own. Thus, God exalted him to a position higher than that of the angels. Now we can see why he demonstrated this important quality to his disciples with a little child.
What about when Jesus said, “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was”? Was he saying that he literally existed with God from the beginning? To say that Jesus literally existed with God before the world was is to say that every Christian also existed literally “in connection with Christ Jesus before times long lasting.” --Compare 2 Timothy 1:9.
The world currently exists as a divided kingdom, on all fronts of political, religious and commercial activities. It will inevitably fall and give way to God’s incoming kingdom for the enlightenment of mankind. –Lu 11:17; Da 2:44; Rev 21: 22-27.
Is the Stone starting to crumble?
Stone,
WE will only communicate this one time, so listen carefully.
WE are listening and watching everyone always. YOU have drawn our attention by your grievous thoughts, actions and sanctimonious postings. You do not know what you are doing and you mock the supernatural as if you are some kind of expert. Listen to your host. He does offer sound, wholesome advice.
WE tell you this: It can be arranged for one angel to visit you OR a "demon" to possess you. Which one would you like? Hint: You don't make the choice, WE DO.
You have continuously walked a fine line. Be very respectful and lowly in mind with any future postings. Listen more and speak less. Your thoughts are not what you present here.
For the rest of you that are reading this, do NOT pay attention to this human; for he is no stone crying out but a lost child looking for what he lost. Be busy in the Lords work as the time has drawn ever closer.
My the will of our great GOD and Father Jehovah take place on the earth as it does in heaven.
AMEN
Watcher
You sound like a deluded person in need of getting on the right track. Perhaps I can help you with some sound biblical advice. But first let’s talk about angels and demons since that seems to be a point of interest to you.
About the demons I don’t think you want to go there. So I advise you to get as far away as you possibly can from anything having to do with spiritism, not even dabbling in such things. (Compare Acts 19:19) Then you will make your way successful in terms of pleasing God. Take a look at the following verse, so as not “to become sharers with the demons” as do the nations:
1 Corinthians 10: 21
You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.
So seriously speaking, scrap the demon crap out of your life! Then they will be no need for you to throw it at people you may not like. In fact you will begin to see and understand Jesus’ command “to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting you,” even to those that are lingering in your delusional state of mind.
Now as far as God’s angels are concerned they are messengers of peace, “sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation.” --Lu 2:13-14; Heb 1:14
For a person who has seen both the darkness and the light, I recommend the light. Always STRIVE for the light and the darkness will not overpower you.
A Stone Crying Out,
I have just now for the first time looked at the material under this "Beliefs" section, and would like to point out that the comment #9630005, June 6, 'Proxygnosis,' is NOT from me, but from that brain dead imposter impersonating me; I am sorry for not spotting this earlier.
Anyhow, I wonder HOW you explain away the divine testimony of the Apostle John, to wit: "All things came into existence through Him, and apart from Him NOT EVEN ONE THING came into existence!"
No, I realize you can read and think, what I REALLY want to know is, WHY do you WANT TO believe that Jesus LIED when He said things like: "What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ASCENDING TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?"
Or again, WHY He LIED in prayer to His Father, when He said: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself WITH THE GLORY THAT I HAD ALONGSIDE YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS?"
What in your HEART is moving you to profess faith in a Saviour who’s very Word you do not want to believe?
Why do you want to believe that the Almighty is incapable to preserve the Bible as an accurate record of what His Son actually said about His pre-human existence?
Your whole foundation is built on sand; luckily, there is YET time for you to reconsider your WILL, and I pray that you do.
Proxygnosis
If you believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence, it is because you are subservient to the Watchtower’s doctrine on this matter or perhaps other historical figures who believed that Christ was an angel before he came to earth as a human being. It is no different than people who believe that Jesus is part of a triune God.
If the devil does not get people one way, he gets them the other way through his lies and deceits. You have to understand that the devil has been around for a very long time, so he knows the nuances of all the languages spoken on earth. Therefore, he is quite capable of corrupting some biblical verses to give them an entirely different meaning to support his agenda which consist of misleading the entire inhabited earth.
Where he is not capable of corrupting a biblical verse, he can get people to misinterpret it so as to support their preconceived ideas. The devil is going to continue to mislead mankind up to the point where he is chained and hurled into the abyss.
When he is released after the thousand years have ended, he will go back to his game of misleading and deceiving. That’s his nature. But this time around he will be completely destroyed, as though thrown into a lake of fire.
Jesus began his existence when he was conceived or “begotten” in Mary’s womb. The angel Gabriel was quite clear on this subject, when he appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying:
Mathew 1:20
“Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit.”
To beget means to bring into existence. Therefore, what is begotten cann0t have previously existed. So Jesus was (1) begotten at the moment of his conception in Mary’s womb and (2) begotten at his resurrection, since he ceased to exist when he was put to death. This cannot be true if Jehovah merely proposed and executed a transfer of Jesus or Michael for that matter from a higher life form to a lower one; in which case, we would be speaking of an act of incarnation as opposed to an actual begetting or conception.
Nonetheless, you are free to believe that Gabriel was telling Mary and Joseph that God had miraculously transferred the life of a previously existing powerful spirit being into Mary’s womb. Since Gabriel didn’t say that, you would have to admit that God was not entirely truthful with them as to Jesus’ actual beginning.
They did not raise Jesus believing that he had a prehuman existence. That’s because Jesus was as much their children as the other ones were that came after him. The only difference is that Jesus was conceived miraculously through the power of God’s spirit or active force. God was his Father just as God was Adam’s Father. This is why Jesus was able to provide a “corresponding” ransom to redeem mankind from Adamic sin and death. The weight of evidence points to the fact that Jesus had a human origin, even as was prophesied long ago through Moses.
Deuteronomy 18:18
A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him.
Since Jesus was commissioned by God, Jesus could speak of the glory he had alongside God before the world was. So figuratively speaking, he existed in the beginning with God. His role in the outworking of God’s purpose is of such magnitude that he is referred to as “the beginning of the creation by God,” or “the firstborn of all creation.” In fact the Bible says that as the Lamb of God Jesus was “slaughtered from the founding of the world.”
However, we know that Jesus died some four thousand years after the creation of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the concept of preexistence does not mean actual existence with God, who is eternal, having no beginning and no end.
A Stone Crying Out,
the truth about Christ's pre-existence is a rather serious issue as far as consequences are concerned, similar in gravity to the reality that He is not Almighty God or a component of a trinity, for example.
What I mean to say is, this is not a minor difference in understanding about details of prophecy or doctrine, things that do not necessarily lead to eternal death, if gotten wrong - I think you agree with me on that. (1Jo.5:16; Rev 22:19)
Your argument about Satan's deception, although intrinsically valid, is in fact neutralized in this instance, because it cuts BOTH WAYS - if one view is the truth, then the other is a lie, and vice versa - so, it doesn't afford us any help.
But your analogy with the trinity teaching DOES indeed help us to settle the truth of the matter.
I, like you, no doubt, have had many arguments over the trinity with people, not all of whom - although sincerely convinced - were necessarily KNOWINGLY WILLFUL in their belief of this pernicious lie, because of never honestly having evaluated the scriptural evidence against it.
After hours of citing and analysing hundreds of scriptures, the truth always comes down to a simple tally of the NUMBER of scriptures that could REASONABLY be interpreted to support the trinity, versus the NUMBER of those that DEFINITELY support the truth of ONE God and Father who has an only begotten Son.
As you KNOW, the percentage of scriptures against the trinity is OVERWHELMINGLY greater than those seemingly in support of it - to the tune of something like 98% or more - so that any REASONABLE and HONEST person would be forced to admit that the trinity is false.
The SAME statistical density emerges when we tally up the scriptures that POSITIVELY PROVE that "not ONE THING came into existence WITHOUT Him," - with the number of those that COULD be construed to imply that "all things" did NOT "come into existence through Him!"
As for the odds that the Almighty is INCAPABLE of securing the textual integrity of his Word against errors - whether of human or demonic origin - only a WILLFUL HATER OF TRUTH would prefer to take his chances there, rather than admitting the obvious Truth.
Now it all comes down to YOUR intellectual and spiritual HONESTY, as to WHOSE SON you WANT TO prove yourself to be - the God of Truth, or the god of lies!
Proxygnosis
Just out of curiosity, do you believe as the Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the first angel God created? If so, where does it say in the Bible that Jesus was the first angel God brought into existence? Also, how would you answer the following question?
Hebrews 1:13
But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
A Stone Crying Out,
the term 'angel' means messenger; hence any human or spirit creature can be called an 'angel' sent by God for the purpose of delivering a divine message to others, as for instance the messengers, or 'angels' to the congregations in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, which designation may refer to spirit begotten Christian individuals - or else the collective body - as having the "word" or message of Christ residing within them. (Col.3:16)
Obviously, Jesus is the pre-eminent messenger or 'angel' of God, and is also referred to as such in Malachi 3 verse 1, namely as "the messenger [Angel] of the covenant."
To think of Christ as an angel may not accord with the perceived wisdom and perception of most 'Christians,' - but should not our definitions of scriptural terms be stringently derived from the meaning imposed upon them by the way the Word of God itself uses those words, rather than what WE would like them to mean, or are accustomed to hold them to signify?
We know that all existence originates, in the first instance, from the Only Self-existing One, YHWH Himself, although, amazingly, it is a process that he has also delegated to other creatures, both intelligent and merely animate, although he has debarred spirit creatures from this privilege of causing existence to others, on pain of irreversible death.
It should therefore come as no surprise to us that the Word of God tells us repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that the Father, at the start of originating life, delegated this authority to Jesus - something clearly impossible if Jesus, at that stage, were no more than a sketch on the divine drawing board.
As to Jesus then being the 'first' angel to have been 'created' by God, scripture prefers to use the term "Only Begotten" of the Father, which means, coming into existence UNIQUELY, EXCLUSIVELY - ONE-AND-ONLY - UNMEDIATEDLY and EVER through the Father Himself ALONE!
Even Christ's brothers, the chosen ones, although sharing all things in common with Jesus, are not begotten of the Father Himself as such, but ONLY by the Father THROUGH Christ Jesus; hence they are NOT 'ONLY-BEGOTTEN' of the Father as Jesus was!
That term MEANS what it says - only Satan wants to make a nonsense of it, and he doesn't care which way he goes about denigrating Jesus' position and the amazing humility and dedication to his Father he showed by emptying himself of the incredibly privileged position he had in the "bosom of the Father" as the "Only Begotten God" from eternity, from time immemorial - because apart from the Father there was as yet NO ONE else around to remember, or bear witness to His existence.
That is why the Word of God in numerous places emphatically points out Christ's pre-existence as the 'co-creator' of all life if you will - ALL subsequent existence in whatever way, shape or form.
That way too, Jesus' death for us, as Him being the "exact representation" of' the Father's very being, is, as it were, YHWH Himself dying for us, that we might believe Him and be saved, rather than us perishing for believing ourselves abandoned by Him - condemned for someone else's stuff-up.
If possible YHWH would rather perish Himself than seeing us lost, but because of being inherently immortal, His professed undying commitment to us carries real conviction only in His giving up something that is IMMESURABLY PRECIOUS to Him - certainly NOT just someone who is MERELY one of perhaps billions of his creatures, punched out with his divine 'cookie cutter' as it were, just doing what he was told to do.
Only Jesus' death, AS THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN, on the martyr pole gives credibility to the Father's claim of BEING love.
As to the difference between being 'created' and being 'begotten,' I guess it has to do with the quality of spiritual Son ship in addition to mere created existence, such as enjoyed by free moral agents. It is intimately connected to the purpose of performing the Divine Will, as distinct from the will of the individual - an inestimable privilege, to be sure, but something most creatures would not feel too comfortable with.
The 'New Creation' of those begotten by the Father through Jesus is SIMILAR to Jesus himself, except, of course, that Jesus was NOT begotten THROUGH HIMSELF, but ONLY through the Father - that marks the difference between 'begotten' and Only Begotten!
This, in turn, explains Paul’s references to Jesus in Hebrews, such as in chapter 1 verse 13, for instance, which reads: "But to WHICH ONE of the angels has He ever said: 'Sit at my right hand...'"
To WHICH angel indeed? Notice, the divine pronouncement does NOT say: To which person, or. spirit creature, BUT, to which ANGEL - thus SPECIFICALLY referring to Jesus as 'ANGEL,' albeit a very special, unique type of 'angel' indeed!
Paul continues: "Are they [the angels] not ALL spirits for PUBLIC SERVICE, sent forth to MINISTER for those who are going to INHERIT SALVATION?" What are we to conclude, then - that Jesus is NOT a "PUBLIC SERVANT of the holy place (Heb.8:2) and the true tent," hence, NOT an 'ANGEL?'
Or, that the name of the 'angel' Jesus is NOT THE ONE "that has been given among men by which we MUST get SAVED?" (Acts 4:12)
Are we perhaps NOT "joint heirs [INHERITORS] with Christ," (Ro.8:17) in "union with whom we were also assigned as heirs [INHERITORS]?"(Eph.1:11)
Did Christ actually NOT become "a MINISTER...in behalf of God's truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers?" (Ro.15:8) or to "MINISTER and give his soul a ransom in exchange for many," (Mat.20:28) as just such an 'angel,' albeit a UNIQUE messenger of God?
So Jesus holds AT LEAST the position of an 'angel,' just as a member of the 'governing body' of JW's, for example, AT LEAST also holds the 'title' of 'publisher,' if you will - and I somewhat cringe at making that comparison, even if only to illustrate a point.
Naturally, Jesus is more commonly known by his more elevated titles and roles, such as Saviour, Mediator, Redeemer and Lord, but also, and not inappropriately so, he might be referred to as Servant of God, Son of man, and even Angel [Messenger] of the Covenant.
Hebrews 1 verse 4 speaks of Jesus having "BECOME better than the angels!"
Clearly, then, He, for some time PREVIOUSLY, was NOT better than the angels, and became even a little LOWER than the angels in order to save us. That is the whole point about Christ's humility, quite in contrast to the root cause of the entire cosmic upheaval and suffering, namely, PRIDE, as exhibited by Satan.
Proxygnosis:
I suppose you were begotten somewhere prior to your conception in your mother's womb too. Were you also an angel? Don't the Mormons believe that they were angels too?
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/60442
A Stone Crying Out,
it sounds like you are objecting to the for-ordination or predestination of the children of God in Christ Jesus before the founding of the world. That is a common enough objection, raised in part out of ignorance about the reasons behind this sovereign exercise of Divine grace on those thus chosen.
May I just try to shed some light on this Divine mystery for you to consider, upon which I would be very much interested in your PERSONAL reasons for opposing the good pleasure of His will in connection with us in Christ Jesus.
Why should it seem wrong, impossible, or, unjust for the Almighty to invent ahead of time - that is, pre-determine the character and eternal destiny of - a small number of sons, whom He purposed to bring into existence at some future point to exercise their free will in bearing witness to His righteousness, benevolence and dependability in fulfilling his promises of reconciliation and eternal blessing?
Furthermore, those not thus chosen and 'begotten' in eternity in Christ Jesus, are not at all disadvantaged in this divine, personal, predestination of others, because they too can exercise their free will - if not to accept something that has never been offered to them, then, certainly - to sovereignly choose to take sides with the Almighty in His cause to establish HIS righteousness, resulting in life to them, that is unlimited in both length and quality.
People that begrudge God's grace to others would do well to contemplate Mat.20:15: "Is it not lawful [i.e. righteous] for Me to do what I want with My own things? Or is your eye wicked BECAUSE I am good?" [i.e. BECAUSE you imagine Him - or want Him - to be just like yourself, wicked.] (see Mat.7:11)
God is not an 'equal opportunity employer,' nor is the faith necessary for salvation something he owes us, but it is his gracious gift. (Ro 9:16)
Proxygnosis
Ignorantly enough, you are going off the subject. Nonetheless, you have the right to interpret the Bible the way you see fit and to agree and disagree with others as you wish. I don't believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence. I believe he is the Son of God. That he started out as a perfect human being like Adam, but conceived in Mary through holy spirit.
He was subsequently exalted to God's right hand, at which point angels and authorities were made subject to him. I don't know how Jesus could have provided a "corresponding" ransom if he lived prior to Adam in a higher plane of existence.
When the Bible says that Jesus was made lower than the angels, I don't believe it's saying that Jesus was reduced from an angel to a human being. He was made lower than the angels just like Adam was made lower than God's angelic sons. Then afterward, upon his exaltation to God's right hand God bestowed the right of the firstborn upon Jesus as was predicted in Psalms 89:27:
“Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn,
The most high of the kings of the earth.”
When the Bible says that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” it is because God was by himself. There was no one with him when he began to create and fashion things into existence.
Isaiah 44:24
I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
According to the Creator no one was with him when he made the heavens and the earth. So you need to review and thoroughly research those verses in the Bible that you think support the idea that Jesus had a prehuman existence.
Surprisingly, people who support the idea that Jesus had a prehuman existence or that he is an angel are as adamant as people who believe that Jesus is part of a triune God. The fact of the matter is Jesus had a human beginning in Mary. –Mat 1:20; Deu 18:18
The devil has been around for a very long time and he knows how to pit groups of people against one another.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/godsreligion/p/aa082499.htm
A Stone...
"The devil has been around for a very long time and he knows how to pit groups of people against one another."
EVERY human and EVERY Spirit creature can do the same thing. In fact, many do! So no great feat here just simple manipulation of the ignorant and foolish!
People, I think many of you are hung-up on your own writing and posting. Just how much do you posters really think of yourselves?
Man! The self righteous dogma is getting pretty deep lately!
@A stone crying out....
just some things i wanted to mention:
God never said to any angel to sit at his right hand side. (Heb 1:13) That position was reserved for a perfect HUMAN Son of God, who would sanctify God's name and vindicate God's sovereignty in full view of a watching universe in Adam’s place who failed to carry out God’s will for the earth. –Heb 2:7, 9.
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The position could not be reserved for a human because flesh and blood cannot reside in heaven.
Refutation?
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When the Bible says that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, it is in connection of the new creation to come that God is unfolding through Jesus according to his PLAN from the very beginning. Jesus, the perfect human Son of God understood what was at stake, and played out the script God outlined for him when he came into actual existence.
Quesiton: When did he start to understand what was at stake???
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Fact- Jesus is said to have created all things- after it mentions him being the first born of all creation
Colossians 1:17- All things were made through him- that is the Son- Jesus Christ. cannot be explained away. Its either you believe it or not. Through means AFTER... what it went through HAD to be first...
At least Trinitarians agree with what it says- they just add the confusion in saying God made himself in order to make other stuff through him.....
Therefore changing the sentence to say it doesnt mean he was the first of ALL creation but is the first of the NEW creation- is going beyong the words.
Refutation?
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The Watchtower would have us believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence, and that he is the only human being ever to walk the earth, having a prior existence as a spirit being in the heavens. That of course favors the pagan idea of incarnation, which stands in stark contrast to the angel's declaration to Mary that she would “conceive” and give birth to a son “begotten” of holy spirit. –Mat 1:20.-
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Fact -- Jesus cannot be an incarnation-
Proof- He was to be / is - The Last Adam.
Legally if he had any sort of "god" "spirit powers" "detestable unethical nature such as the Nephilim" - then he would not qualify for the ransom. The ransom is an equal and perfect match to the thing that is lost or kept in bondage.
Refutation?
please refute if you have a scriptural basis?
Hello ‘Quite an interesting read’
Please study your Bible more deeply. You may want to move away a bit from the Watchtower so as not to keep feeding yourself upon its breast as God will "silence" her soon. (Ho 4:5; Isa 29:4) Otherwise, you are going to be terribly misled just like Saul was terribly misled. It took a personal encounter with Christ for him to get off his high horse. –Ac 9:1-9
In fact, people the world over are going to have an encounter with Christ during the great tribulation. (Rev 3:10) At that time many will be rifined, getting off their high horse as it were and humble themselves. Many others will prefer to give their allegiance to the devil's kingdom, the wild beast, and lose out on the blessings of God's incoming kingdom. --Da 12:10; Rev 13; Da 2:44
Now you can believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence, but Mary and Joseph didn't think so. Neither did his disciples in the first century. When the Bible speaks of Jesus as being the "first born of all creation,” it is not saying that Jesus had a prehuman existence. It is speaking of the position of "preeminence" that Jesus enjoys with the Father. --Col 1:18
Jesus began his actual existence when he was "begotten" in Mary. Read the angel's words to Joseph and Mary. (Lu 1:31; Mt 1:20) He used the word "conceived" and "begotten" in reference to Jesus coming into existence in Mary. He didn't say anything about God transfering the life of a preexisting powerful spirit being into Mary's womb, because that was not the case. If that had been the case, the Bible could not have referred to Jesus as the "Last Adam." (1 Cor 15:45) Neither could Jesus have provided a "corresponding ransom" so that he could produce spiritual offspring from Adam's stock. --1 Ti 2:6
Upon Jesus' exaltation to God's right hand, God "place[d] him as first born, The most high of the kings of the earth." Jesus inherited a name even more excellent than God's angelic sons, a statement that could not have been true if he already existed as Michael the archangel. So Jesus is truly the "Son of man," the Lion from the tribe of Judah, highly exalted to God's right hand. -Pslm 89:27; Acts 4:12; He 1:4; Rev 5:5; De 18:15
Furthermore, Jesus was not in on the original creation. That's why we read: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1) Since God first created spirit beings, angels, it was to them that he later said "let us make man in our image." This includes the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, who was made lower than the angels. ((Heb 2:9) After he successfully accomplished his mission on earth, God exalted Jesus next to him second in power over all creation, functioning as God's High Priest and Chief Agent of life through whom God will bring about the new heaven and the new earth wherein "righteousness is to dwell." --Ac 3:15; 2Pe 3:13
This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? --Isaiah 44:24
I myself [Jehovah] have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I--my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded." --Isaiah 45:12
Verse 13 says which is prophetic of Christ: "I myself have roused up someone in righteousness, and all his ways I shall straighten out. He is the one that will build my city, and those of mine in exile he will let go, not for a price nor for bribery," Jehovah of armies has said.
All the verses in the Bible that speak of Jesus as though he preexist his human conception are figures of speech. For example the Bible says that Jesus was "slaughtered from the founding of the world." This is a figure of speech just as "the blood of Abel" that cried out to God is a figure of speech. (Ge 4:10) The Bible is riddled with figures of speech. The problem exist though that many people take them literally and fail to put them in their proper scriptural context.
Another figure of speech concerning Jesus says that "the Word became flesh and resided among us." (John 1:14) The Word that was in the beginning with God was not Jesus. It was God's will and creative plan that he put into motion, bringing the heavens and the earth into existence. That is why the creation glorifies God, saying: "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created." (Rev 4:11) Notice that God’s will [his Word, Wisdom etc.) existed prior to the creation. That ties in with John 1:1 about the Word [God's Plan, His Will] that was with God in the beginning. In the Hebrew context something that is "with" God carries the same thought as "belonging" to God. So it is the Word belonging to God, his grand creative plan, which Jesus, as God's representative, revealed or made known to mankind.
Thus, by allowing God's Word to fully manifest itself in him, Jesus actuated God's Word and Wisdom to the extent that he is spoken in Scripture as "the image of God" and "the exact representation" of his God and Father, Jehovah. --Heb 1:3; Prov 8:22-31
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