'Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Deity of Christ'
A common accusation by Trinitarians is that Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity of Christ. That certainly sounds sinister. Denying the divinity of Jesus makes Jehovah’s Witnesses out to be unchristian, even anti-Christs. But such is not the case. In truth, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deny the divinity of Christ. As already stated above, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus had a prehuman existence and in that state he was divine. Although not Almighty God, the Word, as he was/is called, was a god. He existed as the very image and likeness of the only true God.
However, upon his becoming human Jesus left off his heavenly nature. Paul explained it this way at Philippians 2:5-11: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Some translations, like the King James Version, mutilate Philippians 2:5 to read: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God…”
If that rendering were true, though, it would seem that Paul was exhorting Christians to presumptuously seek equality with God – after all, that is what they have Christ doing by such shoddy translating.
In reality, the apostle is telling Christians to follow Jesus’ sterling example of humility, because even though Jesus originally existed in God’s form, as the verse clearly states, Christ Jesus did not consider himself God’s equal. (It is no wonder many Trinitarians prefer the King James Version.) Instead of grasping for equality with God Jesus emptied himself. The question is: Of what did Jesus empty himself? The answer: Jesus divested himself of his divinity. He was in God’s form – a deity, to be sure. He forsook his divine nature and “took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.” And as a man Jesus submitted himself to a tortuous death. For that reason God exalted his son to his very throne.
But while Jesus was on the earth he was not a deity. He was a man. Jesus was not part God and part man. He was not a god-man or demigod. In the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians Paul explained that Jesus corresponded in value to the original human God had created. Quoting Genesis in the first part of the passage below, the apostle wrote: ‘“The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.”
Jesus is called “the second man” because he is only the second perfect man whom God has created. Similarly, Jesus is called the “last Adam” because he was the last human that God will ever produce. But the point is, Jesus was human, just as Adam was human. This is why Jesus’ death is called “a corresponding ransom for all.” The value of Jesus’ perfect human life corresponds to what the first man originally possessed before he became a sinner against God. Had Jesus been a god-man or a human deity of some sort he would not have had a corresponding value to the original man.
In actuality, those who accuse Jehovah’s Witnesses of denying the deity of Jesus, themselves, deny the vital ransom Christ provided. They do so by denying that Jesus was solely human. By making him God incarnate they disqualify Jesus from being the equivelant of Adam. Trinatarians unwittingly deny the great act of humility Jesus performed too, when he willing left behind his divine nature and became a lowly human.
Trinitarians also unwittingly deny the love of God as well, because had Jesus been Jehovah, as the popular myth would have it, then it renders meaningless the fact that God rewarded Jesus for his great humility and sacrifice. Or, are we to believe that Jehovah rewards himself for being loyal to himself and he gives himself gifts and honors that he has always possessed? Although enwrapped in high-sounding theological language and endorsed from the highest pulpits, to believe that Jesus is God himself is to embrace the absurd.
In what way are Jesus and Jehovah one?
watchman
Reader Comments (29)
A stone: Jesus often spoke of his pre-human existence. Or are you so bloated with your own opinion that you know more about Jesus' origin than Jesus himself?
Watchman: Jesus will reveal the truth in due time. Incidentally, Jesus never used the phrase "pre-human existence." We should not think that Mary was carrying a preexisting being in her womb. That is not what Gabriel revealed to her.
In Genesis, God spoke of a "seed" that would bruise the head of the serpent. If Jesus literally existed before his birth or conception, he could not be construed as a seed.
God knew Cyrus before he was born, the same as he knew Jesus before Jesus was born. He knows from the beginning the finale. Thus Jesus can speak as though he existed "before Abraham," that is in God’s plan from the beginning.
This is shown by the fact that God later placed Jesus as "firstborn of all creation" when he exalted him to his right hand. The WT needs to come to grip with the fact that Jesus is not Michael. God never told any angel to sit at his right hand, as previously taught by Zion Watch Tower in harmony with the Bible.
The fact is the perfect man Jesus, conceived and begotten by the Father by holy spirit, was exalted above the angels, having attained a position of preeminence above all of God's creation. Thus the term "firstborn of all creation" aptly apply to Jesus, within the Jewish context as oppose to the Grecian pagan culture imposed upon the biblical text.
A stone
You are either massively ignorant or are being deliberately obtuse. Of course Jesus did not use the exact phrase "pre-human existence." However, he spoke on numerous occasions about the CONCEPT. For example, in prayer Jesus asked Jehovah to glorify him with the glory that he previously had alongside the Father "BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."
As far as Jesus revealing all the truth in the future, that is true enough, but in order to qualify for receiving the truth yet to be revealed we must first accept the truth that has already been delivered to us. I'd say you have a ways to go there.
Watchman,
You are free to believe that Mary was carrying a preexisting being in her womb and indeed you are doing very well just as Trinitarians are doing exceedingly well in their belief that Jesus is God, being part of a triune deity.
In saying “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was,” Jesus was not saying that he actually preexisted with the Father. He was alluding to the glory that his Father had in store for him from the beginning. It is this glory that Christ entered into upon his exaltation to God’s right hand.
If you believe that Christ actually existed with God in the beginning, you might as well believe that as the Lamb of God, he was actually slaughtered from the founding of the world. You might as well also believe that every Christian previously existed literally to receive God’s “underserved kindness” given to them “in connection with Christ Jesus before times long lasting.” --Compare 2 Timothy 1:9.
However, Jesus put things into perspective saying at a point in time in the future concerning his sheep: ““Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.”
Did they “actually” inherit the kingdom from the founding of the world? No, they didn’t because they did not yet exist. Likewise, Jesus did not previously exist alongside the Father, but the glory that the Father had in store for him existed with the Father, which he then bestowed upon Christ upon his exaltation.
Now you may begin to appreciate why the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” and why God himself said: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, laying out the earth. Who was with me? –Isa 44:24.
I am always amazed at the virtually limitless capacity some people have for self-deception. But, if that is what you choose, go for it man.
But in reply [Jesus] said: "I tell YOU, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out." --Luke 19:40.
It is precisely because of deception that the stones are crying out. And what better time could they be for them to cry out when so many are being deceived.
Either God is a Trinity or he is not. Either Jesus had a prehuman existence as Michael the archangel or he did not. Either Jesus started out as a seed in Mary’s womb or he did not. Either the angel of the abyss is Jesus or he is not. Either Abaddon or Apollyon refer to Jesus or they do not. The list goes on and on, and it is all the more reason why the stones must cry out. And crying out they will in all their brilliance.
They consist of jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, hyacinth, and amethyst. There are also pearls and pure gold, as transparent glass. –Rev 21:19-21.
When Trinitarians refer to the divinity of Christ, they are referring to Jesus as God the Son and as part of a triune God. When Jehovah’s Witnesses say that they believe that Jesus is divine, they are saying that Jesus is a god and that he is Michael the archangel in his prehuman existence. But who does Jesus say he is?
On one occasion Jesus asked his disciples “Who are men saying the Son of man is”? They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E•li'jah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Then Jesus said to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?” In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In response Jesus said: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo'nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.
It is plainly stated in Scripture that Jesus is the Son of the living God. He is not part of a triune God or Michael the archangel anymore than he is not Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets as some wrongly imagined. And how did Jesus become God’s Son. Speaking to Mary, Gabriel answers:
“Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that REASON also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”
Did Gabriel, God’s messenger, said that there were other reasons why Jesus would be called holy, God’s Son? No, he did not! God revealed through Gabriel how it is that Jesus is his only begotten Son through this unique miracle. –Mat 1:20.
It was with Jesus in mind from the very beginning that God created all things. (Isa 44:24) Thus Jesus is spoken of as “the beginning of the creation by God,” and also as “the firstborn of all creation,” although he came into actual existence some 2000 years ago. –Rev 3:14; Col 1:15.
Watchman,
It is plain and simple what "A Stone Crying Out" is trying to do. Please don't let this person destroy or belittle your work and effort.
Please, block, ban deny the IP address he/she uses to access this website. We really don't need any detractors and delusional trolls such as this.
Thanks
Concerned Reader,
Your point is well taken. I have brought up the same points of discussion to others concerning Jesus' origin in my immediate family circle. They all think I am delusional as well. When I tell them that Jesus did not have a prehuman existence, they were shocked.
I used to believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence just as the Watchtower says. I also used to believe in the Watchtower's 1914 dogma. E-Watchman opened my eyes on that one. Overall I think he's doing a very good job, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.
I do not expect people to believe everything I say. However, you should understand that freedom of speech is essential for making new discoveries. Otherwise, civilization can quickly revert back to the Dark Ages.
The fact that we are no longer in the Dark Ages stands as a testimony that there is a bright future ahead for humanity. Do you recall from your history how they used to burn people at the stake and kill millions just for disagreeing with the religious establishment back then?
I believe we are going to revert back to a new dark age, but Jesus is going to cut it short. Now isn't that something for you to be happy about?
To all concerned
SHOW US/me the unquestionable PROOF that Jesus had a prehuman existence or that he did not.
Here is your chance people. Put up or shut up.
Thanks for your time...
Reader,
Here's the proof and it's very simple. The Bible traces Jesus' origin back to Adam, son of God. So Jesus was as much a human son of God as was Adam. They were both perfect, flawless in character. That is why Jesus is called the last Adam and was able to provide a corresponding ransom, meaning that he satisfied God's justice required to buy back the perfection that Adam willfully gave up.
Jesus could have given up his perfection also; instead he accentuated the Father's will above his own. For that he entered into the glory which the Father had prepared for him from the "founding" of the world. Thus the Bible speaks of Jesus as having been slaughtered from the founding of the world. That is why in a figurative sense Jesus said he existed before Abraham.
Other scriptures that speak of Jesus as though he pre-existed, should be taken in the same context, some of which have been badly distorted by Trinitarians and even the WT in our view of Aryanism.
For example, when the Bible speaks of Jesus as being "the firstborn of all creation," it is in reference to the glory God had in reserve for Jesus at his right hand; which glory Jesus attained by virtue of his unfailing love for his God and Father. Thus Jesus could say “Father glorify with the glory I had alongside you before the world was.” Jesus was not saying he was actually with God before the world was. Otherwise, his exaltation to God’s right hand would have been a farce.
Hence Jesus being the firstborn of all creation is indicative of the rank and position of preeminence he has attained next to the Father. Study your Bible, do the research. Likely you will reach the same conclusion.
CASE CLOSED!
Stone,
Why then are you always trying to bust the Watchmen and cause controversy with this issue among many others? Why can't you contribute in a positive way instead of always engaging people in minute or trivial matters?
Get with the program or go elsewhere. Simple isn't it?
CASE CLOSED!
CASE REOPENED - See comment under the following blog "Is Jesus Michael..."
Stone,
You never did answer the question. You really are into self deception. Case Closed until we have positive proof from a REAL devoted person that can TRULY backup his/her claims.
Please stop playing "wannabe". You annoy everyone else that REALLY are qualified to post a replay.
Does it really matter?
So, Stone, Proxy and the other 'dogmas' going to give up?
Q / Brian, (not really sure who you are)
Tell me then, who really are qualified to post here?
A question for you,-- AKA A Stone Crying Out,
Why, "I am" qualified to post here. I think the 'Stone' is starting to crumble...
I am'
You still didn't answer me!
Tell me, how did YOU get qualified?
I'm curious.
We all crumble as we grow old, get sick and die. But they are things that are unseen that remain when everything else falls apart. John wrote: “Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.” --1 John 2:15-17
Nothing is healthier than doing God’s will. That is why Solomon ended up saying: “The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man.” –Ec 12:13-14
Try Proverbs 8. You will come the master worker. It may help. Then again it might not.
Watchman wrote: “A stone: Jesus often spoke of his pre-human existence. Or are you so bloated with your own opinion that you know more about Jesus' origin than Jesus himself?”
Why do you think that I am bloated with my own opinion? Jesus originated long ago before God executed his plan of creation. That is certainly true! In other words he was the center piece of God’s plan from the very beginning. However, God brought him into actual existence four thousand years after he created Adam. How else could he have been called "the Last Adam" and offer "a corresponding ransom" to save mankind?
If Jesus existed as Michael, he would not have been in a position to legally carry out God's plan to save humanity from sin and death. In other words, he would have been over qualified for the job God sent him to do, unless of course Adam previously existed as an archangel too. You know that's not the case. So why do you want to incorporate the pagan doctrine of incarnation into the life of Jesus?
Carefully read Genesis 3:15 again and see how it connects with Gabriel’s message when he announced to Mary and Joseph how Jesus was begotten, coming into actual existence. Gabriel spoke of Jesus being “begotten” in Mary. He did not speak of a transfer of a previously existing angelic being into her womb. This idea is pagan in origin. This is something you should understand, unless of course you have discarded “logic” in favor of “fables.”
Concerning Jesus, Micah says that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” This verse is not saying that Jesus had a prehuman existence. It is saying that the Messiah, “the one who is to become ruler in Israel,” existed or originated in God’s plan from “the founding of the world.” Although you do not agree with the Trinitarian view of God, you do agree with the pagan idea of “incarnation.” So somewhere along the way you have let go of logic in favor of a mythological idea, or what you would consider to be an “artfully contrived story,” which in this case you do not see because of your JW training.
Stone
Crying Stone:
Joh 8,58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi). - I think this passage is very special. To me it appears to be saying that Jesus claims a unbroken line of existence from before Abraham was. I cannot understand how this could be, but I accept it.
How could Jesus be an instrument of creation, if not preexisting before being a fetus inside Mary? John 1 and Col 1? - There are verses that, if they were the only ones describing the role of Jesus in the creation, could be read as nothing would have been created if the safety net of Jesus as a savior was not present. - But verses like Col 1.16 shows Jesus as being an instrument, not merely an idea at the time of creation.
That you see a specific connection with Gen 3,15 maybe correct. Maybe it says something into the context, but it hardly says it all.
Tango,
People can tango all they want, thinking that the Bible supports the teaching that Jesus preexist his conception in Mary. But this idea, like the Trinity doctrine, is just a tango that is destined to fade away, because in reality the perfect Son of God, Jesus, came into existence at the moment he was miraculously conceived in Mary. Jesus is an instrument of creation in his exalted position at God's right hand, through whom God is creating "new heavens and a new earth according to his promise [His plan of long ago; Mic 5:2 "from early times, from the days of time indefinite."], and in these righteousness is to dwell." --2Pe 3:13
Is it true the Watchtower knew that Mr, Greber into demonic spirit. When he did in Jn 1:1.
In your NWT Jn 1:1 how many gods you believe?
JW's have two gods.
Is Jesus a false god?
Is Jesus a pagan god?