Is Jesus Michael the Archangel?
Michael the Archangel
The simple truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures, is that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. More exactly, Jesus is Jehovah’s only begotten Son, being the only creation in all existence that was directly created by Jehovah himself. But Jesus is not the only son. God is also Father to millions of other sons. Long before the universe was created God had a family of sons in heaven. All the angels are sons of God, created by God by means his firstborn Son.
But the angelic sons of God are not all the same sort. God created one sort as cherubs. Another classification of the spirits is seraphim. And then there is the chief angel, an Archangel known as Michael, the great prince.
As has already been established, God’s name was originally represented in Hebrew by the Tetragrammaton – the YHWH – represented in English by the name Jehovah. But before God sent his Firstborn son to the earth his name was not Jesus. Jesus was the name given to him at birth by Joseph and Mary. Besides, the name Jesus is derived from the Hebrew name Joshua which means “Jehovah is salvation.” It is unlikely that a spirit would have been named a name that extols salvation from Jehovah long before the earth was even created or before Adam and Eve caused their offspring to be in need of salvation from God in the first place.
The Scriptures inform us that God has a specific name for all of the countless stars in the heavens. And of course, in the human experience everyone has a name too. It is usually the first thing a newborn baby is given. So what was Jesus’ name before he came to the Earth? Reasoning upon the Scriptures it becomes evident that the chief angel, Michael, is the one referred to by the apostle Paul, who emptied himself of his divine form and became the man, Jesus. This is what the Watchtower Society has long recognized and it is what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach.
But some may object saying that nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is Michael. And that is true. But it must be realized that the identity of the Messiah was a closely guarded secret. Although God originally foretold that he would produce the Savior for mankind immediately after Adam and Eve brought sin and death upon themselves and their unborn offspring, the sacred secret was not fully revealed until the earthly coming of Jesus.
JESUS’ PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE
Some people who ought to know better have foolishly asserted that Jesus had no pre-human existence. But while on Earth Jesus himself revealed in unmistakable terms that he indeed had a pre-human existence alongside God. For example, Jesus once told the Jewish Pharisee, Nicodemus, that no one had ascended into heaven except he that had descended, the Son of man. In this, Jesus was speaking of his future resurrection and ascension back to heaven and declared that no human had preceded him to heaven and he also, obviously, declared himself to have descended from heaven.
Jesus also compared himself to the manna from heaven that God had miraculously provided the Jews in the Wilderness, saying to the Jews: “Most truly I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father does give you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
On that occasion Jesus went on to say: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. But I have said to you, you have even seen me and yet do not believe. Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”
Speaking on another occasion to the unbelieving Jews, Jesus also said: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.”
In speaking to the disbelieving disciples, in the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John Jesus, said to them: “Does this stumble you? What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”
And lastly, in a prayer recorded in the 17th chapter of John Jesus requested of Jehovah the following: “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, THE GREAT PRINCE
Michael the archangel is featured in the Bible as the chief angel; the leader of all of heaven’s angels. He is also revealed to be the leader of God’s people – both before Christ and after. He is portrayed in the Bible as the savior of Christians during the tribulation and the vanquisher of Satan, the serpent. In short, Michael is shown to possess all authority in heaven and on earth – the same as Jesus Christ.
We are first introduced to Michael in the 10th chapter of Daniel, when an unnamed angel appeared to the prophet and explained to him that the prince of Persia had waylaid him for 21 days, saying further to Daniel: “And, look! Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia.”
Obviously the prince of Persia is not in reference to any human prince. No human, no matter how strong, could possibly resist a powerful angel. The prince of Persia is undoubtedly a demonic prince. Down further in the last verse of the 10th chapter, the angel revealed to Daniel that Michael was “the prince of you people.” Just as the Persians had a demon prince acting under Satan’s authority, Jehovah’s people – even while in captivity in Babylon and then in Persia – had a righteous prince ruling over them, a prince ruling in behalf of Jehovah.
Michael was evidently the angel who represented Jehovah on Mount Sinai when Moses received the Ten Commandments. That is because, although the original account states that Jehovah came down upon the mountain, centuries later the apostolic writings reveal that the Law was actually transmitted through angels. Michael’s leadership of Israel is also evident in what is stated in the letter of Jude: “But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’”
The next reference to Michael is at Daniel 12:1:2, which reads: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.”
Here Michael is described not merely as “one of the foremost princes,” but as “the great prince.” And again, the angel states that Michael is ruling over God’s people. However, there is a distinction. He is said to rule over the “sons of you people”— not, “you people.” That is because the angel was foretelling the future, whereas in the 10th chapter the angel was relating what was then taking place. But “the sons of you people” is not in reference to the Jews. How to we know? Because Daniel 12:1-2 is foretelling events that will transpire during the time of the end. In fact, the time of distress mentioned by the angel is described in the exact same terms that Jesus later used when foretelling that the chosen ones would be saved out of a great tribulation, such as had never occurred before on earth, nor will ever occur again.
Furthermore, Jehovah’s Witnesses are well aware of the fact that the real sons of Abraham, “the sons of you people,” are not natural born Jews. They are Christians with the faith of Abraham, whom Paul stated was the father of all those who have faith. So, while Michael formerly was the heavenly leader of the Jewish nation, the Scriptures reveal that Michael is also the leader of Jehovah’s people at the outbreak of the great tribulation. His standing in their behalf can mean nothing else but that the great prince will assert his power and authority as the ruler and protector of Christians.
Of course, true Christians do not acknowledge any heavenly prince or lord as their leader except the Lord, Jesus Christ.
Not coincidently, though, the Messiah is also declared to be the “Prince of princes” – similar to Michael’s designation as "one of the foremost princes" and "the great prince."
Students of Daniel’s prophecy ought to take note of the overall theme of the book – that being, the advent of the kingdom of God. In the seventh chapter of Daniel the kingdom is given to the Son of man, who then slays the beastly kingdom. “Son of man” is the title given to Christ. In the eighth chapter the kingdom is given to the “Prince of the army” and the “Prince of princes,” who breaks the audacious king fierce in countenance. And in the 12th chapter of Daniel Michael, the great prince, stands up with ruling authority and conquers the king of the north.
In this, though, the Watchtower seems to have gotten lost. They teach that the Prince of princes is Jehovah God himself. But that violates the obvious theme of Daniel and it is disharmonious with other related titles Jesus bears. For example, elsewhere in the Scriptures Jesus is called the Lord of lords and the King of kings. Prince of princes is in harmony with those titles – a prince being the son of a king and often the heir apparent. The apostle Paul explained how Jesus is God’s heir and that he inherited the throne of his Father. (Please note that Jesus does not possess the title of “God of Gods.” That title is reserved exclusively for Jehovah God. Instead, Jesus is one of the gods over whom Jehovah is God.)
One common objection Trinitarians often put forward is that Michael could not be Jesus because of what is stated in the letter to the Hebrews, which says: “For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father’? And again: ‘I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son’? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.’”
Their reasoning is: Since God did not declare any of the angels to be his special son, and Michael the archangel is obviously an angel, then Jesus could not be Michael.
This reasoning is badly flawed and reflects an ignorance of the most basic truths of the Bible; namely, that when Jehovah declared Jesus to be his son it was on the occasion of his being baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptizer. That is when Jesus was anointed by holy spirit and born again. And being an ancestor of the Hebrew linage of kings stemming from David, Jesus also inherited the legal right to become the king of Israel. So, the answer to Paul’s question, to which one of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son”? The answer is none. Jehovah did not say that to any angel. He said it to a man. Jehovah said it to Jesus.
When Jesus was on earth he did not simultaneously live in heaven. Paul explained to the Philippians that Christ forsook his heavenly nature and emptied himself and became a man. After his resurrection and ascension back to heaven Jesus was exalted and given all authority over God’s angels. The apostle Peter explained: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”
Angels were not always subject to Jesus. They became such after his ascension. This gives rise to the question: How many commanders do the angels have? The question is asked in view of the fact that the 12th chapter of Revelation refers to Michael and his angels doing battle with the Devil and his angels. And since Jesus is the seed of the woman foretold in prophecy to be the one who will bruise the head of the serpent, why is Jesus absent from the vision of Revelation that portrays the beginning of the war against the serpent and his seed. Has Michael usurped Jesus as the ruler of the angels? Obviously not.
Another objection occasionally encountered from the Jesus-is-God crowd, is that Jesus could not be Michael because, as cited already, Michael did not have authority to rebuke Satan when a dispute arose over the disposition of Moses’ corpse – whereas, Jesus does have authority to rebuke the Devil. Obviously, though, Michael will have authority over Satan when the battle of heaven is fought. This reflects the fact that prior to his coming to the earth Jesus did not have all authority. That is why also, during the days of Daniel, Michael was simply one of the foremost princes. But after Christ triumphantly returned to heaven, victorious over the ruler of the world who tempted him in every way, now Michael is the great prince, commanding all of God’s angels and having full authority to banish Satan from the heavenly realm and crush him.
Also Revelation 20:1-2 reveals that an angel from heaven will ultimately bind Satan and hurl him into the abyss. It is inconceivable that anyone other than Christ will cast Satan down and lock him up and ultimately destroy him, since Satan was personally responsible for Christ’s suffering and death. The crushing of Satan is not something that Jesus would delegate to any angel.
Finally, just as Daniel 12:1-2 places the awakening of those asleep in the dust of the ground in the immediate context of Michael standing up, so too, Paul relates at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 that Jesus will possess the commanding voice of an archangel when he wakes the dead.
A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that Michael is depicted as doing all the things of which it is Jesus sole prerogative to do and that the great archangel possess all the authority of Christ himself. That being the case, it should be apparent to honest-reasoning students of the Bible that Jesus Christ, the Prince of princes, and Michael the archangel, the great prince, are, indeed, one and the same.
watchman
Reader Comments (63)
In the days of Noah rebellious angels materialized fleshly bodies for themselves in order to cohabit with women, producing a hybrid race called “The Neph'i•lim.” As a result of forsaking their proper dwelling place and fulfilling their malicious intentions, the world of that day became so corrupt that God destroyed it by means of the Deluge.
Therefore, and in principle, God could not have transferred the life of an angel into Mary’s womb. Jesus was “begotten” miraculously. Therefore it could not have been a transfer from one life form to another as in the pagan belief of soul transmigration and incarnation.
In fact, there are no scriptural references speaking of God transferring the life of a preexisting spirit being to the womb of a virgin. All the passages of Scripture that speak of Jesus as though he pre-existed are misinterpreted or otherwise taken out of context to fit our Arian belief of Jesus.
In reality, in saying that Jesus “existed in the form of God,” Paul was saying that Jesus acted as God’s representative on earth, as God empowered him to so act. (John 7:29) In agreement with this, Jesus “emptied” or submitted himself to the Father, “taking the form of a bond-servant,” to emphasize the fact that he remained in humble submission to the Father, allowing God to work through him, just as was dramatized by Abraham and Isaac on Mount Moriah. –Ge 22:2.
“Therefore also God highly exalted [Jesus], and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:5-11 NASB).
If Jesus returned to heaven as Michael, of what significance was his exaltation? The fact of the matter is Jesus did not return to heaven as though he was literally there before.
He could speak of himself as the bread of life from heaven or as having descended from heaven and ascended to heaven, even at a time when he was still on earth speaking to Nicodemus. It was not until after his resurrection that Christ actually ascended to heaven, being lifted up as it where “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness … that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.” --John 3:13-15.
Because of our lack of understanding of the Hebrew culture, we take Scriptures out of context to fit our own preconceived ideas. God says concerning the original creation: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? (Isaiah 44:24) On the basis of this text and others, i.e., Psalm 89:27, we ought to reexamine the notion that Christ had a prehuman existence. Will the EW Post care to elaborate on them?
Stone,
So, please explain EXACTLY what “begotten” means. Provide proof of your answer. That should clear up things a bit. Just HOW DID JEHOVAH 'begotten' his son Jesus? --Sorry about the poor English usage to ask this question.
God is the One that enlightens us… “Through him we have life and move and exist.”
First, Jesus was “begotten” by holy spirit as Gabriel explains, in reference to Jesus' virgin birth. (Mt 1:20) This was not a transfer of one life form to another. Second, he was begotten, to immortal life when he was resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father. There is no transfer there either, in this case from a lower form of life to higher one. That is because Jesus was dead. Neither was there a transfer of life from a higher life form to that of the child Jesus.
The idea of beings from heaven becoming humans and reverting back to heavenly life is at best pagan in origin, as with gods and goddesses found in ancient myths and legends.
Everything about Jesus was unique. Thus he is called the only-begotten Son of God. Hebrews 1:1 tells us: “God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the system of things.”
Jesus was not in on the original creation. However, his future arrival was much anticipated and was a subject of intense study by the prophets. Then upon his arrival into the inhabited earth, “at the end of these days God has been speaking to us by means of a Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things.” Thus the Father commands that all of “God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
Through him God made the system of things, (See Heb 1:2 footnote, NWT). In order words, through Jesus God is bringing about the “new earth and the new heavens whereby righteousness is to dwell.” (2 Pe 3:13) It is spoken of as already existing, because it is sure to come.
stone,
You did NOT explain a thing! Stop dancing around! Just --p-l-e-a-s-e- answer the question. It is re posted AGAIN.
The original question remains: "So, please explain EXACTLY what “begotten” means. Provide proof of your answer. That should clear up things a bit."
The word “begotten,” as used by the angel Gabriel in Matthew 1:20, means to come into existence. Since Jesus was begotten in Mary’s womb, this is how he came into existence. Therefore, Jesus did not literally exist in heaven before this unique event took place.
However, he was the subject of God’s creative plan from the very beginning. In this regard everything was created through him and for him. (Col 1:16) Likely, this plan was a guarded secret with Jehovah concerning the “seed of the woman” that would in time bruise the serpent in the head. –Gen 3:15; Col 1:26-27.
God knew from the very beginning that “love” would be the only motivating factor for his intelligent creation endowed with free will to serve him faithfully. This love was exemplified in the life and death of Jesus.
So God’s plan from the beginning is being fulfilled in Christ. This is how we are to understand that the [w]ord became flesh and resided among us. (John 1:14) In saying this John was not saying that Jesus had a prehuman existence.
Whenever Jesus spoke as though he literally existed with God from the beginning, he is referencing the glory that God had for him in the heavens, which glory he entered into upon his exaltation to God’s right hand.
Thus Jesus could pray, “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was” (John 17:5), the same glory promised to his disciples (verse 22).
Just as God held this glory in reserve or in escrow for Christ, Jesus held it in reserve for his disciples. That is why shortly before his death and subsequent resurrection into his glory, Jesus assured Peter: “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterwards.” --John 13:36.
Stone,
I guess you can't answer it can you? Are you stonewalling and talking around the question again?
...and WHAT PROOF do you have? ..Just guess work and a trifle amount of reasoning? Without the PROOF you have nothing but YOUR OPINION. No facts, no supporting scripture, NOTHING!
Waiting for an answer from Stone.
Waiting for an Answer,
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
God’s inspired word is not to be taken lightly. It has been taken out of its Hebrew context and introduced into pagan concepts and ideologies. The Watchtower has made a concerted effort to move away from paganism. Ironically, we have quite a number of miles to go. In reality, though, we don’t have that much of a distance to cover, since we are nearing the end of this Age.
For now, we may meditate upon the scripture cited at the outset, and many others, while praying consistently and asking God for forgiveness of our sins on the basis of Christ’s ransom sacrifice.
Hopefully we will be counted as the meek ones of the earth. Through the prophet Zephaniah God exhorts the meek ones of the earth to “seek righteousness, seek meekness,” that we “may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”
In any event, if “begotten” means anything else other than coming into existence, please let us know.
Stone,
I guess you can't answer it can you? Are you stonewalling and talking around the question again?
Obvious, huh?
The employment outlook for clowns must be very dim.
Considering some of the comments, I wonder how many of you "fine people" must work for British Petroleum?
LMAO
Why don't you children stop clowning around and get back into the classroom. Take your seats and I'll be happy to teach you more about how Jesus was begotten and how he is neither part of a mysterious Trinity nor Michael the archangel. I can see your frustration. Perhaps you are disappointed because you have been taught wrongly about Christ's origin.
Lesson #1
Open your Bible and go to Hebrews 1:4-13. There you will learn that Jesus was never an angel or an archangel, since God never told any angel to sit at his right hand.
So now at least you know that Jesus was not an angel as taught by the Watchtower.
Class dismissed.
Very good children! I am happy to see that everyone is behaving. So let’s go to lesson #2.
As we have seen in Hebrews 1:4-13 Jesus was not an angel as the Watchtower says. So how was he “begotten” or came into existence? Take a look at what the angel Gabriel said to Joseph:
Matthew 1:20-23
“Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im•man'u•el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”
So now we see that Jesus was begotten at his conception in Mary’s womb. This is how his actual existence began. Let’s us pray! Father we thank you for your son, Jesus. Amen.
Class dismissed.
Everyone is behaving really well. Excellent! Let’s go on to our 3rd and final lesson:
In lesson #2 we saw how Jesus came into existence in Mary’s womb. This was 6 months after Elizabeth became pregnant with John. By then John was kicking and moving around in his amniotic environment. –Luke 1:39-44.
If Jesus came into existence in Mary’s womb, he could not have been the first being that God brought into existence. So Jesus is not the first angel God created as taught by the Watchtower.
Search if you may from Genesis to Revelation, you are not going to find any verse that says Jesus was the first angel God created. However, the Bible does say that Jesus “is the beginning of the creation by God.” Elsewhere it says that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.” How so?
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation in “preeminence,” not in actual rank of existence. Let’s read that together in the context of Colossian Chapter 1 in verse 18 of the King James Version:
“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
Now let’s see how Jehovah made Jesus his firstborn. Open your Bible to Psalm 89:27:
“Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn,
The most high of the kings of the earth.”
So we see that firstborn in some biblical context means a position of supremacy over others. This occurred when God exalted Jesus to his right hand.
The Bible says of Jehovah in Isaiah 44:24:
“I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
If Jesus was not in on the original creation, how is it that he is “the beginning of the creation by God”? It’s very simple. When Jehovah stretched out the heavens by himself, laying out the earth, he did it with Jesus in mind, his only begotten Son, who was later conceived by holy spirit in Mary’s womb.
Jehovah made plans for Jesus like your parents made plans for you before you were born. So Jesus pre-existed in that he was and always will be in God’s plan and promise for us from the beginning and forever. That is why he is called the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end and also the only-begotten or unique Son of God.
A stone crying out.
So, is Jesus the ONLY son of GOD? Are the angels or messengers sons of GOD? If the "shinning one" also known as Satan, is so powerful, why did GOD let him go so far as he has?
MOST IMPORTANT: SINCE A SON OF GOD STARTED AND MISLEAD HUMANS AND ALSO ANGELS, DOE NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ENTIRE PROBLEM FALL BACK ON THE PARENT OF SATAN OR IN OTHER WORDS, ISN'T ALL OF OUR TROUBLES AND TRIBULATIONS ESSENTIALLY GOD'S FAULT TO BEGIN WITH?
WE will await your answer. Make it a good one!
The answer is in your Bible...
Why does God let us go so far as we have? Isn't it because he does not want to interfere with our free will? Jesus allowed God's will primary importance in his life. By so doing he left us “a model to follow his steps closely.” A third of God’s angelic sons freely chose to assert their own will above God’s will. They thus challenged God’s sovereignty, which Jesus has vindicated.
How is it that Jesus, who was “made lower than the angels,” was able to defeat Satan? Simple, he loves God and he does not do anything on his own initiative. He appreciates the fact that God is the Creator and source of life. So through Jesus God has demonstrated that humility, not might, is the key to preserving peace and harmony throughout the universe.
For example, recall when Jesus was being arrested at the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter drew his sword, cutting off Malchus’ right ear. Here are Jesus’ words to Peter on that occasion:
John 18:11
Jesus, however, said to Peter: “put the sword into [its] sheath. The cup that the Father has given me, should I not by all means drink it?”
Here’s how Matthew reported this same incident:
Matthew 26:51-53
But, look! One of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. Then Jesus said to him; “return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
It is no wonder then that God exalted Jesus to his right hand, bestowing upon him the right of the firstborn. –Psalm 89:27.
Now when the angel that became Satan casts himself off from God, he was no longer God’s son nor could God continue to be his Father. This rebellious angel became a father himself, that is, “the father of the lie.” Concerning him Jesus said:
John 8:44
When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his OWN DISPOSITION, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].
Once this issue of God’s sovereignty is settled in its finality at the end of the millennium, Jesus will hand “over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power…that God may be all things to everyone.” --1 Cor 15: 24-28.
Stone,
Squeeze a little harder and finish your thought! You missed some info....
Waiting,
I understand your pain, but your sarcasm I do not understand. As far as the pain that we all go through, God has promised to eradicate all our sorrows.
Revelation 21:1-4
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
Stone,
Chill out! Just kiss everything and enjoy the rest of the day!
PEACE
Why do I need to chill out, if you are the one that came out attacking me, thinking that I am destroying what e-Watchman is trying to do?
If it sounds logical to you that God would miraculously impregnate Mary by transferring the life of a preexisting being into her womb that is your prerogative. Honestly then you would have to conclude that Gabriel lied. Here are is words, which are in fact truthful:
Matthew 1:20
Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been BEGOTTEN in her is by holy spirit.
Notice that Gabriel didn’t say “that which has been transferred in her,” which he would have said had that been the case. The whole approach here is that Gabriel reveals how God begets Jesus as his Son, bringing him into existence.
So when the bible says that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation,” or that he is “the beginning of the creation by God,” it is not saying that Jesus actually existed in the beginning with God, but that God was going to produce an heir whom he would exalt to his right hand, and that is precisely what happened.
Both the Father and the Son played out their respective role, just as was dramatized by Abraham and Isaac. –Gen 22:2
We can understand why the Bible speaks as though Jesus had a prehuman existence. This concept is not a reference to actual preexistence with the Father, but a reference to Jesus having been in God’s plan and purpose from the beginning, without which the Father would not have created anything.
So Jesus is before all things (in God’s plan and purpose) and by means of him all things were made to exist. –Col 1:17
A Stone Crying Out,
Okay, do you feel better now?
Point...Counter point.......Point....Counter point........... You gotta win, be right and get in the last word?
It does not matter, you are talking to yourself.
Good Bye
This is not about winning or having the last word. It's about not being gullible. Learn to use your powers of reasoning so as to appreciate the truth as it is revealed in the Bible. Ask yourselves questions, what, why, where, when and how? Don't just take anybody's word at face value. Do your own research or you can be a clown, thinking I am about to crumble. The fact of the matter is, we all crumble from time to time. The question is, are you going to get back on your feet when you experience a fall in your life and pick up the pieces? Then you'll begin to see if you are really qualified for anything.
A Stone Crying Out,
What is wrong with you? Nobody is arguing. You are changing subjects, topics and not making any sense. Be quiet for a change. You are serving no useful purpose other than annoying people.
Be Quiet child.
In that case let me annoy you a bit more, if I may. At this point we are going to reinforce the fact that Jesus is not Michael the archangel. It’s just like the Watchtower has been reinforcing the truth that God is not a Trinity. Both teachings situate Jesus as having preexisted. So you’ve got to raise some flags that something is terribly wrong here.
Now as you all know this Athanasian and Arian controversy goes back many centuries. They both conform to the apostasy that was already at work during the time of the apostles. They even go even further back in time, being rooted in paganism and ancient Babylonian mysticism.
Isn’t obvious that if the devil was not going to get you to believe in the Trinity, he would get you to believe in something else closer to the Trinity? Now what’s the next thing closer to the Trinity? Isn’t it the idea that Jesus had a prehuman existence?
Hopefully, you are beginning to see how the devil was behind both ideas, fomenting trouble and getting people killed by the millions in religious wars and controversies that raged hundreds of years during the Dark Ages. Now you say, why does God allow this to go on? It is for the same reason he allowed the devil to tempt Job. But Job had the right heart attitude. He took the bad as well as the good. In all, he kept his integrity to God, and in the end God restored him to a highly favored position.
Concerning Jesus the Bible says that “he learned obedience from the things he suffered.” Are we to think that it was Michael in human form that learned this “obedience” and “after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him”? Was he somehow disobedient to God in heaven and God sent him to earth to learn obedience? In that case, God might have well sent all the other angels that sinned to earth so they would learn obedience. Wouldn’t you think so? After all, the Bible says that “there is no partiality with God.” (Ro 2:11) One would have to think then that the rebellious angels have been slighted and unjustly thrown into Tartaroo “to be reserved for judgment.” –2 Pe 2:4
Now let’s reinforce Jesus’ origin in your mind. In what way Jesus preexisted as opposed to his actual coming into existence? Not to belabor the point let’s see what the Bible says concerning things that “were” before they actually existed. Take a look at the following verse Jehovah’s Witnesses are very familiar with:
Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they EXISTED and were created.” --NWT
From the above verse we can see clearly that the creation existed in God’s will (or mind) before it came into actual existence. The same hold true for Jesus who preexisted in God’s mind, but whose actual existence began at the moment of his miraculous conception in Mary’s womb. –Mat 1:18, 20
Is Jesus Michael? Read the following verse again:
Hebrews 1:13
But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
The Watcher has posted the above post three times (see the previous two entries). Apparently, he has been cornered and now he is growling, since he has no way out of this predicament. This is not a case of “drill baby drill” as with the Gulf oil disaster. It is much worse and it has to do with a person who has gone mad, being mentally unbalanced.
So the situation is very serious folks. Does anyone out there care to offer a remedy for the Watcher? Carefully read the Watcher’s statement. This is not a joke. We need to snap this person back into reality.
In case no one out there wishes to offer you a remedy, dear Watcher, my previous advice to you still stands. Here it is again:
Watcher
You sound like a deluded person in need of getting on the right track. Perhaps I can help you with some sound biblical advice. But first let’s talk about angels and demons since that seems to be a point of interest to you.
About the demons I don’t think you want to go there. So I advise you to get as far away as you possibly can from anything having to do with spiritism, not even dabbling in such things. (Compare Acts 19:19) Then you will make your way successful in terms of pleasing God. Take a look at the following verse, so as not “to become sharers with the demons” as do the nations:
1 Corinthians 10: 21
You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.
So seriously speaking, scrap the demon crap out of your life! Then they will be no need for you to throw it at people you may not like. In fact you will begin to see and understand Jesus’ command “to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting you,” even to those that are lingering in your delusional state of mind.
Now as far as God’s angels are concerned they are messengers of peace, “sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation.” --Lu 2:13-14; Heb 1:14
For a person who has seen both the darkness and the light, I recommend the light. Always STRIVE for the light and the darkness will not overpower you.
Here is an additional thought:
Stay off the drugs son!
I have removed Watcher's posts.