Why do I enjoy these so much? I'd really like to see some atheist themed shows, Watchman. Seems like an important topic to me. We're growing pretty fast, too. We just don't have any good reason to believe theistic claims. But that doesn't mean none of us are interested. Religion, philosophy, and spirituality are among my personal favorite subjects. I'd like to see the Watchman take on the topic of the growing atheist movement. While some of us are more tactful than others, we generally aren't dogmatic. All we want is justification. I'll reiterate that. All I want is justification.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_51nNXtdTY
Consider this a challenge from the atheist community. There are many more of us watching than you think.
"I'd really like to see some atheist themed shows..." Yes, I'm sure you would.
"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry." - 2Timothy 4:3-5
Hey Melvin, did you think I never read those scriptures before? I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. One thing I know pretty well is the Bible. I see no reason to take any of it seriously. If you watched the video, you'd see my reasoning for rejecting theistic claims. It has nothing to do with collecting teachers for myself. That is what religious people do.
My reason for rejecting theistic claims is because none of them have been demonstrated. I'll accept any evidence for consideration. But quoting the Bible won't work unless you can explain why I should take it seriously.
Maybe I should quote from the Quran; because according to it, you're the infidel. We could quote from Harry Potter if you want. None of it makes a difference. I want solid reasons based on logic and evidence. "Because a book says so" is not a rational reason. Give me justification: Not appeals to emotion, no logical fallacies, not because we're supposed to fear punishment, or because we desire some reward -- I want real justification.
what about the prophcies that have already been fulfilled by the prophets. If you were raised JW, you should know as well as anyone the how vividly accurate the prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon was centuries before it happened. How the prophets were able to give specific details about the fall of Babylon such as the diverting o the river, how the door was left open during the city-wide celebration, and the fact that Cyrus was named the conqueror of Babylon long before he was even born. Add in the fact that the Bible is so self-consistent despite the fact that it was written over the course of several thousand years by many people from many different backgrounds, and it surprises me how someone with such an intimate knowledge of the Bible as person should be who was raised JW could conceive of not having enough evidence to support the Bible as the Truth.
This account from Isaiah was one of my favorite prophecies, Babylon's fall to Cyrus. On the surface it seems like a good one. Unfortunately, we must realize that no original copies of Isaiah's book exists. Everything we have is left over from long after Babylon fell. If I'm to remain rational and objective here, I must disregard unverifiable accounts of “supposed prophecy” – otherwise I'd be accepting the Koran too. In my opinion, it is much more likely these sections of Isaiah were added after the fall of Babylon.
Some claim Israel becoming a nation is another good example of fulfilled prophecy. Besides being off by several centuries, Israel did in fact become a nation. However, this doesn't work either, because it's a prophecy believers influenced directly through ideological reasons. The Jews returned to Israel in order to "fulfill prophecy" God said it would happen, lets make it happen – when we can do that, it's just not legitimate fulfillment of prophecy. The Bible saying “there will be wars” is also not a prophecy. That's about like saying, “In the future, people will go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning.” I find none of the Bible prophecies particularly compelling.
Hmmm...you make a compelling point. I'll have to do some research on that subject. In terms of Israel, though, I would have to agree with you, self-fulfilling prophecy is just not convincing.
well for many God will provide all the evidence they need at armagedon and the scripture will be fulfilled "And they will have to know that I am Jehovah." for those who wait till then it will be too late, yes you WILL have alllllllll the proof you need in that day.
Robin, how on earth can that be morally correct? You're talking about a God who never speaks, who only communicates through an ancient book that can be interpreted numerous different ways -- offers absolutely no objective sound reliable means of demonstrating his existence from Zeus or Apolo. Then God proceeds to punish us for using the rational brain he gave us? I find your God reprehensibly immoral.
If God's intentions were to make his presence known "when it actually mattered" then, according to you, he fails horribly. Are you suggesting God is incompetent or just plain evil? A God that would hide himself from the world, only revealing himself through fluffy feelings, and spooky coincidences, and then finally showing himself and being "surprised" people didn't believe, is totally absurd -- especially if this God is omniscient. He would know exactly why I don't believe and what would have convinced me. Is God just trying to see what nonsense people will believe without justification? Believe this book or God will kill you. How is your God any different from a mafia boss? If you don't do what I say, I'll break your legs.
It means this God only cares about his own vanity. "Believe in me," regardless of how ridiculous it may appear to be. He apparently doesn't want his followers thinking very much at all. I'm supposed to use my intellect to reject all other religious ideologies. But God wants me to ignore those requirements for one particular book? A God that would punish someone for exercising skepticism is immoral. You are more moral than that concept of God.
"For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."-- a scripture i know you are familiar with God's qualties are seen from creation, whether is be zues or what ever god life shows at the very least that a god exists and that all things didnt just pop into existance out of nothing by nothing. Even if God would reveal himself toyou or to a man or to all men existing in one time period he would have to repeatedly do that since in 100 years from now someone can say oh theres no proof, he showed himself then but not now and the cycle would just repeat itself.
thats why God doesnt do that because if God wanted people to believe based on simply a miraculous event then he would have done it, even when jesus performed miracles he always charged them not to tell people becaus ehe didnt want people believing simple by sensational stories. Jesus even reprimanded those in his day when he said “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign" and again "Unless YOU people see signs and wonders, YOU will by no means believe.” so if we are looking for a sign from God were gonna be waiting a while.
Just a thought for the person whose question is dealt with first in this podcast:
If, in order to get saved and worship the God of truth, you need to join and subject yourself to an arrangement of lies - as commanded and conveniently provided by the WT-anointed - you ought to question and ponder the following assumptions:
1) the nature of 'truth' itself, (epistemological relativity) 2) the intellectual and spiritual integrity of the WT-anointed, including Watchman himself, 3) your own sanity and/or motivation for 'sucking up' to a god who ipso facto nullifies the value of Christ's sacrifice.
For if the value of His ransom sacrifice guarantees salvation only through the mediation of the WT, then Christ died for nothing, truth has perished, and faith is made redundant.
And we all know just who has a vested interest in achieving precisely such an outcome for the inexperienced and unwary. (1Jno 4:1)
Anzwertree, 1. First of all, good for you! You are going to college to hopefully, better yourself. It is a fact that most JW children are poorly educated and socially inadequate in the hard Sciences, social norms and anything outside the Kingdom Hall. Now not all people fall into that category but most certainly do. Most JWs are intentionally kept ignorant about a lot of things and even taught not to question what comes down from the WTB&TS. I will say that for the past decade, this trend has been changing as the younger generations have become fed up with the lies and all other garbage spewed forth from the controlling leadership. For the most part, there has been a lot of real Biblical “factual” truth given out and it is not my intention to take away from that. The problem lies within the “human” part of the equation, not so much the biblical portion but there are problems there also. Just look around EWatchman’s website and he will steer you the right way. –enough of that!
2. You should remember that ONLY YOU can take your journey to find God. Never ask someone else to do the work for you. YOU must be sincere and your heart and whole soul must be humble and willing to submit to a higher power beyond our understanding. --- Hence forth the reason why so many people are not at peace and are still wondering and looking but never finding. But like you said, Atheists groups are growing. Is this a coincidence? I think not.
3. You want easy answers? Ok, here are two ways in which you can verify the existence of our GOD. 1. You honestly and sincerely humble yourself before GOD in private, asking him for forgiveness and for him to direct your footsteps according to HIS will. IF you are honest hearted and sincere, you will know. If you are not honest and sincere, nothing will happen. Therein lies the problem isn’t it? 2. Go to college and earn your advanced, doctorate level degrees in the “hard Sciences.” After years of pure research and diligent work on your part, you will begin to “see” the supernatural design” in all things. But the catch is, your intellect must increase through your OWN effort. –Not built on the works of others. –YES, IT’S TRUE!! You really do become smarter…and better. But your attitude must change to “notice” the reality. NOTE: Many people are simple and have little education, but they have found and they KNOW there is an almighty GOD. Funny how this basic fact puts so many “intellectuals” to shame isn’t it.
4. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else by this posting, however, you need to backup a bit and listen without drawing a conclusion and without crying, complaining or looking for more misfits in the world around you to give you support in your current pursuit of “atheism.” That is, if you really do have legitimate leanings toward this empty life. I guess we shall see as time moves on...
5. You do not need someone to furnish you the proof. You need to do the work and RESEARCH yourself! That is the secret to learning. Do the homework yourself and you will learn and you will positively KNOW that God is real. Believe me, misery and ignorance loves company in the world of academia.
6. The cry of college students is usually “take up any cause and look for others to support and strengthen you!” Choose the people you associate with carefully. When you take up a cause like this, you really never “learn” anything of value from the doctrines of mankind which have been skewered from the very beginning.
7. So, you don’t have any advanced degrees, no experience, no training, no –real life- expeditions or research into the existence of “God” –or anything else—no life experience …but you have already formulated an opinion, attitude and even pursuing the “no God” culture? All based on the reading of a few books, attending a seminar or two, watching a movie or two or perhaps having a deep conversation with some supposed intellectuals? Or was it the way you were brought up in a “Jehovah’s Witness family?” Is this WHY you are taking this course of action? The fact is you are young and have virtually no knowledge base to draw from. Think about that for a while before you become set in your ways.
8. LOL man, you need to stop right now and rethink your path. Don’t be so eager to jump on this or that POPULAR FAD. Be an individual and research the information yourself. Don’t let the ignorant and blind waste years of your life and then in the end, you simply die and are forgotten forever. Or is it just the here and now that you aspire to make a name for yourself? You are young! Don’t jump into a pit of foolish undesirables.
9. You should know the following about most, if not all of the top elite research and design professionals in Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Astronomy, and on and on; They state: "it becomes more evident that the universe and all life on this planet are by DESIGN.” “We do not know how, but it is evident from the beginning that some DIRECTED force caused all things to happen in a specific sequence in which reality as we know it today, is here and now as we perceive it.”
10. Now, these same world class, best-of-the-best, would never say anything like this on their way up the ladder to success. This is because of the pressure to conform and maintain the status quo. Top people have even lost their jobs because they spoke out about the clear evidence of a superior force –GOD—that has caused all things to be in nature. You get these same people in private conversation and they will speak wonders to you about the REALITY of GOD and the things we see around us from the heavens above to the depths of the oceans below us. In the public forum, most of these same ELITE are cowards and tow the party line and play politics.
11. Yes Sir! IF you REALLY wanted to know if there were a GOD or not, all you have to do is WATCH, LOOK AND LISTEN. You might just have an epiphany! Imagine that.
I would say that passage refers to the inexcusability of a person who believes in God to not reconize his qualities in nature. Once someone comes to know God, it is readily apparent how his qualities shine forth through his creation. This is NOT apparent from the perspective of someone who has not yet come to know God. Otherwise, if it were truly inexcusable for anyone to not recognize God through his creation alone, there would be no need for a mass resurrection so that people throughout history who did not get a chance to get to know God could get that chance. The logic would then be, well, they had the chance to look at nature and see God, but they choose not to. In other words, if that passage should be interpreted the way you are suggesting, there would be no one would be worthy of resurrection, since it has already been established that it was inexcusable for them not to recognize the existence of God from nature itself.
KIM, I agree that once you get to know God that there is a "fuzzy feeling" and a sense of not being alone that comes from that relationship with God, but this type of knowledge in and of itself is insufficient as PROOF. All people of all religions of the world have a "fuzzy feeling" and JUST KNOW that their gods exist; otherwise, they would not stick to their religion. (Some people might "stick" to the religion because of tradition and pressure, but not really believe it, but I'm talking about those who do embrace their respective religions with a passion.) We (or at least I) do not believe in Jehovah because of some warm fuzzy feeling...from an atheist point of view that would be a result of a defense mechanism that evolved in humanity to cope with sentience. If we want to be brutally honest with ourselves and the world around us, it is imperative that we constantly question why we believe what we believe, and if it's solely because we get a "warm fuzzy feeling" that simply isn't enough. I believe in and love Jehovah DESPITE the fact that my sentimental connection to my former life as a pagan and my pagan friends is still strong within me. It's true that in the secular world, one can take up a cause and then surround himself with those that support their cause, but that in and of itself does not invalidate the cause. Indeed, this is what religious people do as well. When one converts to a religion (such as when I began to take a serious look at the Bible and slowly became acquainted with the living God), one then proceeds to find others that share those beliefs. For me, in the beginning, this took the form of seeking out a Kingdom Hall--well before my conversion to Christianity, though, I did the same thing as well, I began to study various pagan traditions and then surrounded myself with people who shared those beliefs--this form of socialization is not limited to academia or secularism, nor does it invalidate the foundation upon which the socialization is founded.
The "spirit awareness" that I am talking about has nothing to do with a "warm & fuzzy" feeling. When this "touch" of reality happens, there is no mistake about what has transpired. A person must experience it to fully grasp an understanding of one's spirit (so to speak) being recognized by GOD. That would be the easiest and shortest way to explain it
Post Script: Proof comes in many forms. But I ask everyone this: By what RIGHT does mortal man demand proof of a GOD? Mankind must first humble themselves and submit to GOD. By this act of faith and works, knowledge will then be considered......the answers can be found in each person willing to follow the path of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please do not take my words to be harsh or disrespectful, if I come off that way, I do not mean to.
Now, you can call it what you want, a warm and fuzzy feeling, the awe, wonder, and mystery that one is inspired to feel when they contemplate the complexities of the working universe, or "spirit awareness." Muslims claim the same exact feeling concerning their certainty of Allah as Christians claim about their certainty of YHVH (or the trinitarian God as the case may be).
I've "tried" many religions, and I've even tried atheism. The feeling of certainty I had that there was no God when I was an atheist was exactly the same as my certainty now of the existence of Jehovah. So why do I now believe in Jehovah when once I did not? What has changed? It isn't a change in my sentiment towards my current decision to believe vs the sentiment I had towards my decision not to believe. It's because I understand the complexities of the Bible and its prophecies and the ways in which prophecy has been fulfilled and how amazingly self-consistent the Bible is despite its having been written over the course of thousands of years. Now, am I saying that my belief has not changed me on an emotional level? Not at all. In fact, I've experience PHYSICAL changes in my mental an emotional processes that have been more powerful than anything I've felt in any other belief structure. Did this affect my view towards Jehovah? I think it would be more accurate to say that it INFLUENCED and reinforced an already existent belief structure. Would I base my beliefs solely on such changes in emotion? Perhaps to some extent, but that alone would not be enough for me to stop looking into other forms of spirituality b/c how do I know that I won't experience an even stronger emotional response to another tradition? It's the foundation of solid evidence that I have accumulated that renders the need to continue searching futile, not the emotional response. An understanding of Bible truth needs to be in place FIRST, and THEN comes the emotional experiences. Now, what about people who existed before we had the Bible? In those times, God spoke to people directly. That alone was evidence enough for those who heard it, and the truth of the message that surely would be relayed to other people served the same purpose that the Bible serves now.
Your point is well-taken, however, concerning the need to humble one's self. In terms of finding God, however, the Bible itself says God is searching the earth for people whose hearts would be open to accepting the truth. I take this to mean that the "humility" required is someone who is honest with themselves and those around them about what they perceive to be truth and who would be willing to accept truth when presented to them in a manner that God deems sufficient as proof. As to submitting to God, you cannot submit to a being you don't believe exists. I think a more accurate condition would be someone who has the POTENTIAL to be willing to learn God's will and to submit to God once the truth of his existence was realized.
I'd like to point out that I am in no way rejecting God out of some desire sin. Atheists also don't believe everything popped into existence out of nothing. That's what "theist" believe. God created everything out of nothing using magic. Atheists don't believe everything just popped into existence. That's absurd. First of all, we don't know what “was” before the big bang.
We can only calculate so far. Saying that there was "nothing" before the big bang is an unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence suggesting that everything popped into being out of nothing. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. That's the first law of thermodynamics. In other words, there was likely never a point in time where there was nothing. Even the notion is absurd. Think about it. Can "nothing" even exist? The question itself is contradictory. It's like saying nonexistence exists.
Back to Robin's remarks, those scriptures you used appear to demonize using logical thinking and rationality. We have to understand something here. Belief is not a choice. It's a binary position. You either believe or you don't. When I believe something I want justification. If your God chose to punish me for not believing something I found no good reason to believe in, then this God would be morally reprehensible.
Assuming God truly is love, what you described makes no sense at all. God finally shows himself. We finally have justification, and then God's all like... "Sorry, it's too late now. You were supposed to believe in a state of ignorance for no good reason. Now that you have evidence of what I actually want, and not just what a book says, or what people say I say, now that I'm here with justification, you have to die."
That God is a JERK!!!!
If God was real, he'd know why I don't believe. He'd know all the passages in his holy book that made me sick to my stomach. He would know I rejected belief for good reasons. Because I saw too many flaws inherent in the concept. He'd know I didn't just stop believing to sin all the time. He'd know I thought believing in something without reason was foolish. He'd know I didn't want to lie to myself and others just because I feared punishment or sought reward.
And if that turns out to be true, and I have to die for rejecting myths and superstitious stories, then that's okay. Personally, I wouldn't want nothing to do with this invisible delinquent father figure who calls himself a God. A God whose power and insight created the universe; yet in the end, it was all so easily trumped by his own vanity.
You need to take the advice already given above. You are a young pup! Also, perhaps God is not for a person like you, ever think about that? You don't want God, fine. God will forget about you.
Just live your life any way you want and when it is time for you to die, you will. That will be that and all that was you, will be forgotten.
What does my youth have to do with anything? But yeah, I agree. The God described here by most commenters only appears to want weak minded followers that don't care whether or not their beliefs are valid. As long as they believe. That's all he cares about.
He only wants blind loyalty from the ignorant masses who aren't capable of thinking for themselves. He doesn't want people using their brain. Gosh no! He only wants legions of drones programmed to carry out his every word. Raping women, murdering babies, incest, child sacrifice, all these are good things according to God. He likes nothing better than the smell of burnt flesh. What an awesome righteous God. You see... that's where me and your God part ways. Your idea of morality is doing what God says, regardless of what is right. My idea of morality is doing what is right, regardless of what we're told. Sure, I'd much rather be dead than worship this incompetent God. Your God is not worthy of worship.
Dawkins said it best, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
This is NOT apparent from the perspective of someone who has not yet come to know God. Otherwise, if it were truly inexcusable for anyone to not recognize God through his creation alone, there would be no need for a mass resurrection so that people throughout history who did not get a chance to get to know God could get that chance.
this is not a true Biblical claim since Paul said "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." fascilitating a need for a ressurection.
Dawkins said it best, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
It is apparent that Anzwertree has not read all of the good advice given to him. Perhaps the posts should be written in brail? The young and inexperienced are so impetuous at times. It must be special to ignore what is in front of you just to keep the friends that mislead and use you. Poor choice by any standards.
First off, even JWs recognize the difference between Hades and Gehenna. There are people who have died who simply do not deserve to be resurrected again. Adam and Eve are two examples of such people. They have paid for their sins through their death. This does not mean they will be resurrected again. The Bible speaks of the Pharisees going to Gehenna. Simply put, just because someone paid for their sins through death DOES NOT entitle them to a resurrection. The resurrection is something given by God out of his love for us and through his grace. So, again, I say, if it were truly inexcusable, those people would not receive a resurrection.
Creation doesn't tell you anything, Robin. Please tell me. How does creation prove Christianity? How do you make the inferential leap from "Sun, moon, plants, trees, to "The Bible is the word of God"? Clearly creation is not enough to justify your claims. This same argument can be used to support Allah,or any number of contradictory gods.
And yes, Dawkins has read the Bible. Perhaps you just cherry picked the passages you favor. This God is anything but moral. Such as Numbers 31:17-18 where the Israelites were instructed to slaughter women, men, and children. Accept for the female virgins. They were to keep them for themselves.
I bet you think the 10 commandments are valid, but you don't stone your kids to death for disobedience. Homosexuality is a sin, but shellfish is probably okay. Nothing but a bunch of cherry picking hypocritical nonsense.
There is no context that makes this stuff acceptable. It's never morally correct to go into a city killing everything that moves, while taking female virgin slaves. Dawkins was at best being modest in his assessment.
And yes, Susan. I'd accept brail if there was actual evidence in it. I'm not sure what delusional world you live in, but here in reality there is most certainly nothing indicating the claims of the Bible to be accurate. The exact opposite, actually. All I see is the world in front of me with no correlation to any particular religious ideology.
All I see are a bunch of religions that don't agree on anything, and so I reject them all because they are all the same -- unjustified. If someone provided evidence of God, I'd convert on the spot. Assuming God exists, he would know I would have preferred believing all along. But that I could not bring myself to believe for selfish reasons. Fearing punishment, wanting a reward, none of these are good reasons.
Perhaps I am young and inexperienced. But at least I outgrew my imaginary friend.
Susan, being young and not understanding things is not an effective argument. Many young people understand things older people do not and vica verca. Understanding and comprehending things isn't nessasarcly associated by age, but rather the health of the brain and the education of the person. unless... you're saying Anzwertree is a infant not capable of understanding things (a blind one at that). This would degrade your speaking point to an insult. When using a insult that implies a disregard to the disabled and that blatantly avoids addressing the points a person brought up leads a intelligent person to simply conclude that you're the one who is an infant and who doesn't understand things because you cannot offer a simple, effective rebuttal. Your tactic has a name, believe it or not. It's called a logical fallacy. This is dishonest, and isn't dishonesty something you're god doesn't approve of? If I was as misguided and ignorant as you, right about now I'd probably be throwing my hands together and starting to whisper to omnipotent superstition while resting on my knees.
Question for KIM; Why do you think athiesm is empty?
On humbling yourself to god: I find the practice empty. Reading old tomes, and coming to personal conclusions based on my feelings was never a good barometer in my opinion. As an athiest myself, I have never found any satisfaction in viewing religious services, reading the bible or prayer. Science, though... science is something. Science will humble you, and quickly. It offers cold hard information that constantly improves on a day to day basis, collecting more and more data about the universe. Kim, have you ever studied cosmology? I have, and quite frankly, I find this to be a true humbling subject. The vastness of our universe, the amazing thing it is. And we're nothing, our tiny planet spins around a tiny sun, where googles of suns 24,000 times larger than our sun spin around a supermassive black hole. This is only our galaxy, and there are billions more... billions. To believe simple documents written by a primitive man trying to understand just the earth, and we thought we were the centre of the universe and god was the almighty force that controlled nature, and wars. With our understanding of this now, it just can't be so.
I don't completely reject god much like how I don't completely reject the idea that there isn't a god... but I reject the young earth bible story. It just isn't supported by the findings of evolution, the age of the earth, ect. Also, there are so many contradictions in the bible, how can anyone take it literally?
I'll push off with one thing: Since I have become an athiest, I've become a better person. To understand that you have one life, and one chance in this special place we call earth is just a real treasure. I want to make this world a better place, I want peace and I want love in this world. I want this because we're humans, we're special, and we're all we've got in this gigantic place. I don't want this because some ancient man said to love people, all while he'll condemn them to hell. I don't want everyone to think like me, but I do hope people want the same things as I do. I hope people find logic, critical thinking skills and a love for fellow man. I hope people would stop putting up walls while creating hate, discriminating on race, sexual orientation, gender, nationality, and more. I hope for the welfare of mankind, and the betterment of myself and the entire species. I am an athiest, and I think I'm a better person than most christians. I find the universe marvellous, and I treasure every moment I exist in it.
Why do I think atheism is empty? Because atheism is not complete, it is not whole. It is lacking all things that complete a human creation. And I'll bet you can guess what that is!
Have I ever studied Cosmology? Yes, you might say that I have, among many, many other Sciences. Two of my favorite books in this field are Principles of Physical Cosmology by P.J.E Peebles, and another by the same author is Quantum Mechanics. Now I can not go too far without a mention of another favorite which is Cosmology and Particle Astrophysics authored by Lars Bergstrom and Ariel Goobar. Both of these people hail from Stockholm University, Sweden. Which by the way, was a pretty cool place to be years ago. But, times have changed.
Gentleman, there is much to learn. You will not have enough time as life is to short! It is better to choose wisely and live a good life knowing that you will have a future beyond your imagination if you make the right choices.
I would like to clue all of you in on information that is vital to all human life. Regardless of your place in life on this planet known as Earth, you should remember that there really are entities far beyond our comprehension that we must acknowledge and respect. We do depend on these spiritual beings to fulfill our lives and answer our questions so that we, ourselves may grow and prosper and learn the true realities of “existence” it’s self.
Science has always fought the idea of a supreme being and the supernatural. The truth is all we have to do is take a moment and step back and SEE what has always been there for us. But we have systematically been trained to ignore and vilify what cannot be easily explained by our current level of scientific development.
I have a few matters to attend to right now so I will have to pursue this discourse at some later time. We shall talk again. It has been enjoyable.
Isaac... all I can say is wow! Awesome post, dude. It wasn't rude or condescending at all like mine. I had no idea you were such an excellent writer.
Okay, Kim. I have a few remarks. You understand that atheism isn't an ideology, right? There are no atheist creeds or tenants. By saying atheism is incomplete leads me to think you're still not fully understanding what atheism is. It's not a belief system. Atheism is a response to one claim. That's it. Atheism is a single position to one particular matter -- do you believe gods exist? Theists say yes, atheists reject this assumption as unjustified.
As I've explained before, however. Atheism is not a claim that there are no gods. It isn't a belief in no gods. Picture a court case. Just because you haven't found someone to be guilty doesn't mean you're claiming the person is innocent. It just means you have not been convinced of his or her guilt. Atheism is virtually the same thing. Atheism is a plead of "not guilty" -- not that we're all postulating there are certainly no gods. We just haven't found justification to render a guilty verdict. I hope the illustration makes sense.
I am all about making good decisions. Life is important to me. The people I love and care for are important to me. Truth is important to me. If I am to dedicate myself to a cause, then I must know that cause is worthy of my time and energy. Science, on the other hand, has proven to be a worthy cause. Those unknown mysteries you spoke of were not revealed by any religion. Go get a clipboard and think of all the advances of science over the decades. Then compare that list to all the advances of religion. What's the score? You see, scientists understands their science doesn't know everything. If they thought it did, they would stop.
Kim, I read your posts with enthusiasm. Is this the professor Kim of 'OPS' fame? We thought so! This is David & Lisa L from Yale class of '79. Long time no see from the Army. I knew you retired. Look us up and call us some time. Everyone says hello.
Glad to hear from you! Funny how we gravitated to The Watchman's website. I hope the family is in good health and tell everyone hello for me.
Go to the OC-HQ and ask for Debbie in the research department. She has my contact information or if you wish, leave your info with her and I'll call in for it.
What a thankless job to be God: Half the world hates you for the wrong reasons, and the other half worships you for the wrong reasons - no one understands you, and you're all alone!
As for us: If one were to believe in God, and He turned out to be non-existent, one would end up looking like a fool.
On the other hand, if He does exist, and hence created everything, our not acknowledging Him would constitute a major insult to our Maker and Benefactor, the One who potentially loves us.
Perhaps we should cut Him some slack and give Him the benefit of the doubt - even to the end of the end - He might do the same for us.
There is a chance He knows what He is doing, and we end up kicking ourselves for not trusting Him.
so you like science and nature, guess what, so too does God, that's why He made it for us to discover and enjoy forever. He gets more kicks out of seeing us exploring and being fascinated by it, than the stuff by itself means to Him.
Moreover, your wanting this world to be a peaceful and loving place, shows you are much in tune with God's ideas, for that too is His ultimate goal.
First however, He lets His challenger - the god responsible for the mess throughout human history - have a final crack at uniting mankind under his global NWO fascist dictatorship, now looming.
Afterwards, God will banish all fascists to oblivion and bring about a world of beauty and love for the few worthy survivors.
Atheism is on its way out now: There is but one choice between God and god.
I still don't understand why athiesm is empty. You really haven't said anything beyond generalizing with: "Because atheism is not complete, it is not whole."
Why is that so? Then you say;
" It is lacking all things that complete a human creation."
How do you know humans were created? Is it that you believe it based on a popularized young earth theistic view on judo-christian allegories? Or do you have other evidence to support your claim? Remember, I'm interested in proof, not feelings or thoughts. continue;
"And I'll bet you can guess what that is! " You're suggesting an answer based off of an idea I do not agree with. You have not made a point, you have only told me the same thing with a few more sentences that depend on a belief I personally reject, and I reject this belief with fair amounts of reason and facts that disprove young earth creationism that is popular with theists.
Kim, you say: "there is much to learn... It is better to choose wisely and live a good life knowing that you will have a future... if you make the right choices." But what are the right choices? This is called a red herring, btw. Obviously, people want to make the right choices, so you're assuming atheism is unwise and a wrong choice with your style of writing, thus rejecting anyone else who might disagree with you. I personally believe you have not been deprogrammed from watchtower literature yet. WTBS uses these types of arguments all of the time and I constantly see people who are of a older age coming out of the WTBS using these same types of arguments for politics, religion, social issues and whatever cause they have taken up. I hope this does not sound insulting, but I highly recommend you to take a good hard look at yourself and your belief system and ask yourself about where it comes from. Does it come from preconceived ideas that people manipulated you with, or is it based on something you can prove and know with a full heart. Not, believe, but know. If you know things, you'll be able to share the reasons why you know them and not default onto generalizations and red herrings to trick people into your line of reasoning. I don't think you're trying to mislead people on purpose, your line of logic is just simply a product of a cult mentality, it's ok... I just hope you realize that you're doing it from here on out and take the steps to correct that or at least bring some logical arguments to the table, that's all.
Let's continue:
"The truth is all we have to do is take a moment and step back and SEE what has always been there for us. But we have systematically been trained to ignore and vilify what cannot be easily explained by our current level of scientific development. "
Your argument isn't really well established, so this climax of truth from falsehood isn't really any type of revelation to me. You again, generalize, claiming people have been trained to ignore the supernatural. I hate to break it to ya, but the whole purpose of science is to step back and SEE what has always been around us... without prejudice or preconceived ideas, especially of the religious type. Science observes the things we don't understand and tries to explain them. To simply say there are things that cannot be explained is just a claim to ignorance. Ultimately ignorance is just that, ignorance. To understand that you're ignorant and you want to understand the world without bias, preconceived ideas based on hopes and wishes and to reject logical fallacy is the first step to becoming an athiest.
Let me make it clear: I don't reject the idea of god, nor do I reject the idea of god not existing. I only reject logical fallibly, bias, superstition, or hocus pocus. That is all theists are able to offer in the way of proving god to me, and I'm just not convinced. Remember, extraordinary claims (ie. god creating man) require extraordinary evidence. Where is yours? Thanks Kim.
proxygnosis,
"so you like science and nature, guess what, so too does God, that's why He made it for us to discover and enjoy forever. He gets more kicks out of seeing us exploring and being fascinated by it, than the stuff by itself means to Him."
Scientific method does not prove nor disprove god in any way. You also construct this idea in that I believe in some god, I do not believe or disbelieve. My point is one of no belief. There is no evidence for god, so I do not believe in one..yet, therefore I don't agree with the assertions that; "The only reason you find the world fascinating is because god made it that way." But let's ask a question; is any world god doesn't make not fascinating? Why is god only fascinating? Better yet, let's explore your god and his fascinations.
Do think god was fascinated when humans discovered modern medicine and stopped dying of plagues and illness he created... saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of young and old alike? Do you think god was fascinated when mainstream Christianity took part in plunging the entire world into the dark ages where science and logic were something people would be killed over and ignorance and superstition prevailed causing some of the worst conditions world-wide, under the guise of "god"? One thing I don't understand about this superstition you worship is that, if your god is so perfect and wonderful. Why didn't he make the world perfect to start with? I mean if god didn't want war, humans would not be capable of it, if god didn't want rape, humans would not be capable of it, if god didn't want murder, humans would not be capable of it, and if a perfect god needed to be worshiped all of the time, humans would be able to do that. Under the falty logic of judo-christian theists, one can assume god created murder, rape, war and more, considering he is the creator of all things.
Might I also add, the whole idea of hailing a perfect god is a misnomer to begin with. To say you have a perfect god who is deficient and needs to be worshiped does not make him perfect. Much like saying, god is perfect, but created imperfect man is also strange. If god is perfect and creates imperfection, does it not make him imperfect?... or is his creation perfect because it's imperfect? While most theists will wipe this argument away with a simple; "It's not as easy as that" all while they themselves use the same logic to come to conclusions with black and white scenarios their own personal judgments over the course of history regarding abortions, civil rights, slavery, primitive justice and more.
Let's continue; "NWO fascist dictatorship, now looming. Afterwards, God will banish all fascists to oblivion and bring about a world of beauty and love for the few worthy survivors."
I run into this stuff a lot with ex-jws. Conspiracy... a search for truth and a doomsday looming. You have no credible claims for your convictions, much like when you were a jw telling people Armageddon was coming. I suggest you seek a therapist for some help to uncover the reason why you need the world and life to be this way. I assure you it isn't what you think it is. Just because you broke away from the JWs doesn't mean you broke away from their brainwashing, it sounds like it is alive and kicking in someone like you. I mean this in the kindness of ways, but please get some mental help or at least consider it if you have insurance. It did wonders for me.
It is apparent that Isaac and the other minions of atheism are wasting our time and good intentions. Please do not waste your words or talent. Do not cast your pearls before swine my brothers.
Ignore these people as they have no respect for others. The snare of Satan has already tightened around their neck.
"Ignore these people as they have no respect for others. The snare of Satan has already tightened around their neck. "
Like jehovah's witnesses should ignore those who don't believe their religion or who are considered apostates? Give me a break.
Besides, where does it say in your fairytale filled with gore, human sacrifice, rape, murder and incest that you should give up on people who don't believe in your book filled with historical nonsense and lies? Perhaps you only believe this because the watchtower taught you to expel people who didn't believe as you did. Consider your ideas, consider your thoughts. Act with rationality. Like one of my friends often says... don't run on automatic, think.
After this, I will post no more. All credit given to the Watchtower society. This article is used under the fair use copyright act for education purposes.
IS BELIEF IN GOD REASONABLE?
HAVE you wondered why everything from atomic particles to vast galaxies is governed by precise mathematical laws? Have you reflected on life itself—its variety, its complexity, and its amazing design? Many attribute the universe and the life in it to a great cosmic accident and evolution. Others give credit to an intelligent Creator. Which viewpoint do you feel is more reasonable?
Of course, both viewpoints involve faith. Belief in God rests on faith. As the Bible says, “no man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Likewise, no human saw the forming of the universe or the commencement of life. Nor has anyone ever seen one kind of life evolve into a higher kind or even into a different kind. The fossil record shows that the major groups of animals appeared suddenly and have remained virtually unchanged.* The key question, therefore, is this: Which faith sits on a firm foundation—faith in evolution or faith in a Creator? Is Your Faith Based on Solid Evidence?
Genuine “faith,” says the Bible, is “the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Hebrews 11:1) The New English Bible renders the verse this way: “Faith . . . makes us certain of realities we do not see.” No doubt you can think of a number of unseen realities in which you firmly believe.
To illustrate: Many respected historians believe that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Jesus Christ once lived. Is the faith of these historians sound? Yes, for they can point to authentic historical evidence.
Scientists too believe in unseen realities because of the “evident demonstration” that those realities exist. For example, the 19th-century Russian chemist Dmitry Mendeleyev became entranced with the relationship between the elements, the basic building blocks of the universe. He realized that they had certain things in common and could be grouped by both atomic weight and chemical properties. Because of his faith in the order of the groups, he drafted the periodic table of the elements and correctly predicted the existence of a number of elements unknown at the time.
If ancient structural design is attributed to humans, to whom do we attribute design in nature? 1. Inca ruins; 2. A flower; 3. Stars
Archaeologists draw conclusions about earlier civilizations, often from items that have lain buried for thousands of years. Imagine, for example, that an archaeologist has unearthed dozens of carefully cut stone blocks of precisely the same size neatly aligned on top of one another. They are also set out in a distinct geometric pattern that does not occur naturally. What would the archaeologist conclude? Would he attribute his find to coincidence? Most likely not. Rather, he would interpret it as evidence of past human activities, and that would be a reasonable conclusion.
To be consistent, should we not apply the same reasoning to the design manifest in the natural world? Many people have taken that view, including respected scientists. Blind Chance or Purposeful Design?
Years ago, British mathematician, physicist, and astronomer Sir James Jeans wrote that in the light of advancing scientific knowledge, “the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine.” He also stated that “the universe appears to have been designed by a pure mathematician” and that it provides “evidence of a designing or controlling power that has something in common with our own individual minds.”
Other scientists have arrived at a similar conclusion since Jeans penned those words. “The overall organization of the universe has suggested to many a modern astronomer an element of design,” wrote physicist Paul Davies. One of the most famous physicists and mathematicians of all time, Albert Einstein, wrote: “The fact that [the natural world] is comprehensible is a miracle.” In the eyes of many, that miracle includes life itself, from its fundamental building blocks to the amazing human brain.
DNA and the Human Brain
DNA is the genetic material of all cellular organisms and the molecular basis for heredity.# This complex acid has been compared to a blueprint or a recipe, for DNA is packed with information, which is encoded in chemical form and stored in a molecular environment that is capable of interpreting that code and acting on it. How much information is stored in DNA? If the basic units, called nucleotides, were converted into letters of the alphabet, they would “occupy more than a million pages of a typical book,” says one reference.
In most organisms, DNA is bundled up into threadlike bodies called chromosomes, which are safely stored inside each cell’s nucleus. The nuclei, in turn, have an average diameter of about 0.0002 of an inch. Think about that—all the information that produced your unique body is found in tiny packages that have to be observed under a microscope! As one scientist rightly said, living organisms have “by far the most compact information storage/retrieval system known.” That’s saying something when you reflect on the memory capacity of computer chips, DVDs, and the like! What is more, DNA has by no means revealed all its secrets. “Every discovery reveals a new complexity,” says New Scientist magazine.%
Is it reasonable to attribute such perfection of design and organization to blind chance? If you were to stumble across a highly technical manual a million pages thick and written in an efficient, elegant code, would you conclude that the book somehow wrote itself? What if that book were so small that you needed a powerful microscope to read it? And what if it contained precise instructions for the manufacture of a self-repairing, self-replicating intelligent machine with billions of parts, all of which had to be fitted together at precisely the right time and in the right way? To be sure, the notion that such a book just happened would not even enter one’s mind.
After examining current research on the inner workings of the cell, British philosopher Antony Flew, once a leading champion of atheism, stated: “The almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), [show] that intelligence must have been involved.” Flew believes in “following the argument no matter where it leads.” In his case it led to a complete change in thinking, so that he now believes in God.
DNA is like a microscopic book that contains precise instructions for intelligent life 1. DNA; 2. A book; 3. A microscope; 4; A human brain; 5. A boy
The human brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe”
The human brain too leaves many scientists in awe. A product of DNA, the brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe.” Even the most advanced supercomputer looks positively primitive next to this approximately three-pound pinkish-gray mass of neurons and other structures. In the opinion of one neuroscientist, the more that scientists learn about the brain and the mind, “the more magnificent and unknowable it becomes.”
Consider: The brain enables us to breathe, laugh, cry, solve puzzles, build computers, ride a bicycle, write poetry, and look up at the night sky with a sense of reverential awe. Is it reasonable—indeed, consistent—to attribute these abilities and capacities to blind evolutionary forces? Belief Based on Evidence
In order to understand ourselves, should we look down, as it were, to apes and other animals, as evolutionists do? Or should we look up to God for answers? Granted, we have certain things in common with animals. We have to eat, drink, and sleep, for example, and we are able to reproduce. Still, we are unique in many ways. Reason suggests that our distinct human traits stem from a Being higher than ourselves—that is, from God. The Bible put that thought succinctly, stating that God formed mankind “in his image” morally and spiritually speaking. (Genesis 1:27) Why not contemplate God’s qualities, some of which are recorded at Deuteronomy 32:4; James 3:17, 18; and 1 John 4:7, 8. SHOULD RELIGIOUS EVILS JUSTIFY DISBELIEF IN GOD?
Many people do not believe in a Creator because of the well-known abuses and corruptions that blacken the history of many religions. Is that a sound reason for disbelief? No. “The excesses and atrocities of organized religion,” says Roy Abraham Varghese in his preface to Antony Flew’s book There Is a God, “have no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God, just as the threat of nuclear proliferation has no bearing on the question of whether E=mc2.”*
* Energy equals mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light.
Our Creator has given us the “intellectual capacity” to investigate the world around us and to find satisfying answers to our questions. (1 John 5:20) In this regard, physicist and Nobel laureate William D. Phillips wrote: “When I examine the orderliness, understandability, and beauty of the universe, I am led to the conclusion that a higher intelligence designed what I see. My scientific appreciation of the coherence, and the delightful simplicity of physics strengthens my belief in God.”
Some two thousand years ago, a discerning observer of the natural world wrote: “[God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” (Romans 1:20) The writer—the Christian apostle Paul—was an intelligent man and highly educated in the Mosaic Law. His reason-based faith made God a reality to him, while his acute sense of justice moved him to give due credit to God for his creative works.
It is our sincere hope that you too will see that it is not at all unreasonable to believe in God. In fact, like Paul, may you do more than simply believe that He exists. May you also grow to appreciate—as millions already have—that Jehovah God is a spirit person with endearing qualities that resonate in the human heart and draw us to him.—Psalm 83:18; John 6:44; James 4:8.
That article is so easy to deconstruct. I can't believe you even posted it here. You post pro-watchtower stuff on a anti-watchtower board? How brainwashed are you? Let's move forward:
"Many attribute the universe and the life in it to a great cosmic accident and evolution. Others give credit to an intelligent Creator. Which viewpoint do you feel is more reasonable?"
Who cares about feelings? Religious people, of course. That is how they operate, and of course, they appeal to a person's feelings hoping they will sway their thoughts. "What viewpoint do you feel..." It doesn't matter how you feel about things, it matters about facts. You may feel that it isn't snowing outside, even though there is clear documented evidence there is a blizzard outside, it doesn't negate the facts. Just because people feel things doesn't make them negate the truth or facts. Much like how evolution has mountains of evidence it doesn't negate the facts that there is such evidence that disproves a young earth. Period.
Lets continue; "Of course, both viewpoints involve faith." Absolutely not. My viewpoint isn't based on faith at all, it is based on observable facts or lacktherof. Let's get something clear here, the JW's are trying to lower facts or lack of knowledge down to their level to make it easier to attack. Faith and knowledge are two different things and to ignore this is to ignore a lot. It questions the motives of the person providing the information.
"To illustrate: Many respected historians believe that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Jesus Christ once lived. Is the faith of these historians sound? Yes, for they can point to authentic historical evidence."
People can point of historical evidence to prove some of these things. I love how they casually threw in Jesus. Modern accounts of Jesus are not verified by any respectable historian, in fact most accounts except for two that had been written decades after the gospel have been thrown out for being frauds. Historians believe Jesus existed in the same way most other prophets existed during that time. Further, there is no evidence to suggest that the historical suggestions of gospel of Matthew occurred. (i.e. the capture and mass murder of babies, something that would have been documented... by someone.) Continue;
"The New English Bible renders the verse this way: “Faith . . . makes us certain of realities we do not see.” No doubt you can think of a number of unseen realities in which you firmly believe."
Asking rhetorical questions, eh? Sure I can't see the air, and it is reality... but it isn't god. It's a measurable scientific thing I can not only know of, but also predict. Same thing goes for the feeling of temperature on our skin or heck, even atoms, molecules and DNA. We cannot see them but we understand them through the process of trying to. We don't understand them through dogma, we understand them through the advances in technology. If we relied on the bible to explain these things, we wouldn't and couldn't make progress as species.
"Scientists too believe in unseen realities because of the “evident demonstration” that those realities exist. For example, the 19th-century Russian chemist Dmitry Mendeleyev became entranced with the relationship between the elements, the basic building blocks of the universe. He realized that they had certain things in common and could be grouped by both atomic weight and chemical properties. Because of his faith in the order of the groups, he drafted the periodic table of the elements and correctly predicted the existence of a number of elements unknown at the time."
I hate this shit. Dmitry observed and made conclusions based on his observations, not faith in a unknown. And guess, what....? He was right after studying and knowing. Not every scientist is, but he was and he shaped our world and understanding of science causing many wonderful advances in our world.
I'll get at rest of this later, gotta hit the sack, but it isn't a group of ideas you should be proud to stand behind. They are false, unscientific and illogical. You should come back and argue your points in your own voice. Hiding behind illogical false arguments convinces me you don't know enough about a subject and you don't know what to say. You believe in god, you accept nothing else so you use other people's ideas to project your own prejudice. After all, in a world of knowledge and information, your only rebuttal is to post some poorly written article filled with misinformation to prove your point? I honestly feel sorry for you, I feel sorry you cannot debate this simple issue and you cannot respond to simple questions about your faith.
If I had a faith like yours, I'd hope to defend it with logic and facts, but you do neither. You post circular, logically fallacious arguments by a cult. I feel sorry for you.
One other thing I'd like to point out add to Isaac's sentiments is this: I know it's been said over and over again by many atheists and non-atheists alike, but fundamentalists just do not seem to comprehend the fact that EVOLUTION IS NOT PURE CHANCE. It's called natural SELECTION for a reason, because natures SELECTS for mutations that are beneficial over those that hinder a species. Species with mutations that help them to survive will outlive their counterparts without that mutation BECAUSE of the mutation itself, while species with mutations that hinder their survival will die out BECAUSE of their mutation, which is why (according to evolution) life so seemingly organized. While I'm on the topic as well, evolution DOES NOT say that life came from the mud...that's what the Bible says (man was created from the dust of the earth). In fact evolution does not say anything about how life originated, only how one life form came from a previously existing life-form. The scientifically accepted theory of the creation of life without a creator is called abiogenesis.
As far as the formation of the stars...we know they are created from natural processes. We have seen this and continue to see this occur in the Orion Nebula which forms a so-called stellar nursery. There is nothing magical going on there...it's all physics, and it's observable. The formation of stars through purely natural processes.
While I personally do not believe in evolution because I DO believe in the Bible, when theists make claims about science with a view to their faith, I feel compelled to expose the erroneous thinking, because, honestly, all your efforts to explain away scientific reasoning with fallacious logic does nothing except expose the hypocrisy. If you have not taken the time to make a serious inquiry into science, the scientific process, how logic works, etc...(and a bit more research than a half-hearted google search on the subject)...please do not step into territory you are ill-equipped to handle, because all it does is make the rest of us who have faith even though we may understand the logical fallacies of our not-so-educated counterparts look like idiots. And please do not take that statement to be degrading, I realize that not everyone is suited for academic pursuits, and that's OK, just don't pretend to be something you're not, that's all I'm saying, or if you are suited for such things, then make a concerted effort to educate yourself on a topic, again, by doing more than a simple google search, before you speak on that topic.
Your caught in another lie. How ignorant are you? Did you miss this blaring fact? "You post pro-watchtower stuff on a anti-watchtower board? How brainwashed are you?"
Your statement shows how much you don't know and shows how you like to twist and deceive people. This site does NOT hate the JWs or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Strange you didn't notice that fact with such a big brain you have. Could it be all of that smoke you suck in each day from those cancer sticks in your mouth? So smart and not even wise enough to not smoke. What a joke your parents raised! This site does point out the wrong information given out by Watchtower. Some of the people that post here don't like the Watchtower. However, that has nothing to do with the site's direction. HOW FOOLISH YOU LOOK!! Perhaps you should read and know what your talking about. Or smoke some more it makes you look so sophisticated just like a fancy ashtray!
You say a lot of things but YOU DON'T READ THE POSTS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Look at all that you are posting. The posts above each one of yours that you post about, you conveniently ignore certain areas, why? Won't you get a little pat on the back and a wink-wink from your roommates?
Wonder how much of a student loan you took out to go to your community college? HaHA! Did you get kicked out of your family home because of your immoral behavior? Did you embarrass your parents due to disrespectful actions? Oh yes, that's right! It was your mighty brain power that decides these things. HaHAHaHa! Why don't you go over all of your postings and answer the information and questions you have ignored? Scared to? Are you afraid that your 'buddies" won't love you anymore.
IS This You Anzwertree AKA Isaac AKA JOSHUA?
Name: Joshua Channel Views: 12,813 Total Upload Views:54,893 Age:26 Joined: November 07, 2008 Last Visit Date: 4 hours ago Subscribers: 369 This channel first started when I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I started making videos back in 2008. Slowly though, my faith was challenged, and eventually I left the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Since then, I have gradually outgrew my belief in Jehovah. Today I am a proud free thinking atheist, and it was indeed an evolutionary process. I'd like to thank everyone who has helped me over the years. I look forward to exploring a world that I never intended to be part of.
You'll still find some of my older videos when I was a theist. I decided to leave them here to remind me where I came from.
My number one goal now is to seek out people I had once distrusted due to my own biased ideology and distorted worldview. I'm looking to expanding my perception and embracing a world I had once forsaken. About Me:
What is there to say, really? I'm an ex-Jehovah's Witness who still enjoys discussing religion. Even though I consider myself anti-religious, spirituality is an important subject to me. Hometown: Who knows? Country: United States Occupation: sales, hobbyist software development, web design, and writer Interests: technology, deep thinking, religion, spirituality, relationships, women, and anything else that confuses me
WILL BE SEEING YOU SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT WONDERFUL THINGS! Lots of love and kisses from YouTube!
I'm sorry if I have ignored points. I don't mean to. Please let me know what points you'd like to discuss and I'd be more than happy to talk more about them. Lets continue.
"Your caught in another lie. How ignorant are you? Did you miss this blaring fact?" E-watchman is something I have been reading for awhile, e-watchman is a sectarian group with ideas that are different. They oppose views the watchtower holds to be true. Thus, they are anti-watchtower. Perhaps my choice of language is something you find extreme, but I assure you the meaning is not.
"Your statement shows how much you don't know and shows how you like to twist and deceive people. This site does NOT hate the JWs or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society." If I twist and deceive people, please point out something other than your half-baked point above arguing semantics over a point that is valid. Also, I never claimed e-watchman hates JWs or the WTBS.
"Strange you didn't notice that fact with such a big brain you have. Could it be all of that smoke you suck in each day from those cancer sticks in your mouth? So smart and not even wise enough to not smoke. What a joke your parents raised! " This is a "Ad Hominem" attack, you don't address the issue of the facts people like Josh bring up, you are only trying to attack his charterer and it is childish, please stop. If you want to have an adult discussion on adult topics, you ought to behave in a civilized fashion. Besides, it doesn't matter if someone smokes, if the message is vaild, it's vaild. Besides, Rutherford smoked. Do you not listen to any teachings by the rutherford reform because he was a smoker? His points were not more or less valid because he smoked. Smoking doesn't change your personalty, just your outlook of health.
By the way, I'm not Josh, and Josh isn't me. We're two really different people. If you'd like to visit my youtube channel you're welcome to. You can find me here: Feel free to make fun of me or whatnot. I've not made a video for a long time, but my most popular insults are "Fag" and "Psycho". People tell me all of the time that they hope I die or get AIDS. Christians are so friendly, wouldn't you agree?
My dad had a good friend who was an atheist. He did not believe in God just the same way you don’t. I thought it was pretty strange for someone not to believe in God. It just didn’t make any sense to me. Nonetheless, he was a very good person. He took very good care of his family. Overall, he was a likeable, hard working and caring individual. We all loved him. He was like a father figure to me and my siblings. So the fact that he didn’t believe in the existence of a Supreme Being, did not diminish our respect for him.
However, we find out to our big surprise that he was not an atheist after all. You see, on his death bed at the hospital he acknowledged that there is indeed a God, as he drew his last breath. I don’t think he had an epiphany or revelation. As a matter of justification, I think he was thankful to God for his life and he finally admitted it as he was about to expire. So I think that many atheists may not be atheistic at all.
Could it be that you merely think that you are an atheist as a way of coping with an emotional void in your life? In the end you will find that only God can fill that void or emptiness in your life, the same void that is present in all of us. It is no wonder that our good friend mentioned at the outset could not contain his heartfelt desire to acknowledge that “there is a God,” upon drawing his last breath.
With all the evolutionary science classes i have taken and personal conversations with my professors who believe in evolution and laugh at the idea of a god, let alone The God had so many misconceptions about the Bible i understood why they believed in evolution. None the less after hearing my professors explain these things to me i saw how much faith it took to believe in it, more faith than it takes me to believe in the God of the bible.
How does believing in evolution require more faith than god? I don't just plan on taking your word for it because you talked to people or sat in a classroom. After all, if you took some classes, perhaps you could give us your take from a scientific standpoint of why and what parts of evolution require faith?
The idea of nothing appearing out of nothing without a controled cause. before matter came into existance there was nothing, not even the potential for anything to come into existance. Time and matter were brought about at the same time, for all matter is subject to time through the process of decay so if nothing is subject to time, then time doesnt exist so both time and matter come into existance at the same point.
the world, the more we learn about it, we have come to know that it has a set of rules or laws that it follows which makes science even possable. for if everything happened randomly as is taught by some that through a random series of events all that we know comes to exist and would have come to exist eventually through random chance. If this was the case then science wouldnt be possable for the universe would c ontinue to exist in a random state and theories would not be possable or provable since totest anything in science ones findings must be able to be recreated under similiar circumstances, but if everything worked in a random series of events then you couldnt test your findings since no 2 circumstances would be available within ones lifetime due to the numerous probablilities available. but we see that is NOT the case, nature in many ways is predictable due to the laws of nature which have been put in place by God to the believer and by random chance to the unbeliever.
Granted no one can say or can testify that anything in existance now randomly appeared from nothing out of nothing. For example as i am typing this comment, if things can just randomly pop into existance, as the universe is said to have appeared(through a seris of random events collectively generating matter, and eventually all life through this process), then why cant a giraffe or a building or another unniverse pop into existance through this same process? if a complex system that is self sustaining can just appear of out nothing, not even the potential for something to existance being avaiable why not now.
Now if you want to talk about faith and the need for faith sit in on a evolutionary science class. by comparison to the believer all things came into existance through an intelligent being and that all we see that shows "design" or at least the hint of design can help one draw the conclusion either there is no designer or there is.
"The idea of nothing appearing out of nothing without a controled cause. before matter came into existance there was nothing, not even the potential for anything to come into existance."
This is not evolution.
"Time and matter were brought about at the same time"
Not evolution.
"all matter is subject to time through the process of decay so if nothing is subject to time, then time doesnt exist so both time and matter come into existance at the same point."
Not evolution.
"the world, the more we learn about it, we have come to know that it has a set of rules or laws that it follows which makes science even possable. "
Laws that make science possible? Not so. Explain quantum physics. There is not an order, set or laws to that mess at all. It's totally random. (and I'm not talking about that metaphysical crap they talk about in self-help books)
"for if everything happened randomly as is taught by some that through a random series of events all that we know comes to exist and would have come to exist eventually through random chance."
Evolution does not say that. You say that, not evolution.
"If this was the case then science wouldnt be possable for the universe would c ontinue to exist in a random state and theories would not be possable or provable since totest anything in science ones findings must be able to be recreated under similiar circumstances"
Not evolution.
"but if everything worked in a random series of events then you couldnt test your findings since no 2 circumstances would be available within ones lifetime due to the numerous probablilities available."
Not true and not evolution.
"nature in many ways is predictable due to the laws of nature which have been put in place by God to the believer and by random chance to the unbeliever."
You got this so backwards. Evolution says things are predictable, and it is the foundation of modern biology as we know it. You're using modern scientific theories born from evolution to support your claims that evolution believes in random chance and only creationist believe in things happening in sequences and of them being predictable? Huh?
"Granted no one can say or can testify that anything in existance now randomly appeared from nothing out of nothing."
You are testifying a god that came from nothing and made something out of nothing (I imagine this is the term you're looking for when using nothing from nothing) You're basically doing exactly what you're accusing people of doing. But on your own logic, "No one can say or testify". If that is so, why are you testifying?
"For example as i am typing this comment, if things can just randomly pop into existance, as the universe is said to have appeared(through a seris of random events collectively generating matter, and eventually all life through this process), then why cant a giraffe or a building or another unniverse pop into existance through this same process? "
This is not the topic of evolution.
"if a complex system that is self sustaining can just appear of out nothing, not even the potential for something to existance being avaiable why not now."
Complex systems do not pop in and out of existence. Research and theories about cells are interesting and might have more to say than evolution, and it's a science called abiogenesis and is not related to the study of evolution. I will also state, you as a creationst accuse people who accept evolution for something you believe. You believe a god pops things into existence... people who accept and follow evolution do not.
"Now if you want to talk about faith and the need for faith sit in on a evolutionary science class. by comparison to the believer all things came into existance through an intelligent being and that all we see that shows "design" or at least the hint of design can help one draw the conclusion either there is no designer or there is."
Where and in what way is there a "Design"?
Robin, I believe you have lied to me about attending classes on evolution. If you had been to any accredited school for science courses and you studied or at least listened to the lectures you would understand how evolution is a provable, observable phenomenon that occurs in nature's laws you tease me with. Evolution does not attempt to explain matter, space, time, the creation of the universe, creation of the first cell, ect. Evolution explains how things change from generation to generation, then it explains how species have changed over time for it. This has been proven in the fossils we have collected, DNA, the examination of living animals today and their similarities, modern observable effects of artificial selection, natural selection, and micro evolution and macro evolution. Again, lets get this straight: people believe in evolution because it is proven, carbon based life forms evolve and change.
:et's get something clear here. Evolution has been able to demonstrate that it is a provable science, and it by proxy disproves the first book in the bible. You believe that evolution is false because you have to. Evolution has to be wrong or your wrong about your belief. Again, you believe it because your bible requires this belief, and you are afraid of it being challenged. You base this idea out of fear, ignorance and a blatant prejudice. Not to mention blind faith.
So in conclusion, are you sure evolution requires more faith? Because , since evolution provable it really requires none. On the other hand where we have your ideas that require blind faith, prejudice, ignorance and fear. I think the winner is a no brainier... that is, of course if you choose to use your brain.
i guess ill choose to as you say "not use my brain", for i know that:
18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing. 22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24 however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.
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Reader Comments (110)
Why do I enjoy these so much? I'd really like to see some atheist themed shows, Watchman. Seems like an important topic to me. We're growing pretty fast, too. We just don't have any good reason to believe theistic claims. But that doesn't mean none of us are interested. Religion, philosophy, and spirituality are among my personal favorite subjects. I'd like to see the Watchman take on the topic of the growing atheist movement. While some of us are more tactful than others, we generally aren't dogmatic. All we want is justification. I'll reiterate that. All I want is justification.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_51nNXtdTY
Consider this a challenge from the atheist community. There are many more of us watching than you think.
"I'd really like to see some atheist themed shows..." Yes, I'm sure you would.
"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry." - 2Timothy 4:3-5
Hey Melvin, did you think I never read those scriptures before? I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. One thing I know pretty well is the Bible. I see no reason to take any of it seriously. If you watched the video, you'd see my reasoning for rejecting theistic claims. It has nothing to do with collecting teachers for myself. That is what religious people do.
My reason for rejecting theistic claims is because none of them have been demonstrated. I'll accept any evidence for consideration. But quoting the Bible won't work unless you can explain why I should take it seriously.
Maybe I should quote from the Quran; because according to it, you're the infidel. We could quote from Harry Potter if you want. None of it makes a difference. I want solid reasons based on logic and evidence. "Because a book says so" is not a rational reason. Give me justification: Not appeals to emotion, no logical fallacies, not because we're supposed to fear punishment, or because we desire some reward -- I want real justification.
anzwertree,
what about the prophcies that have already been fulfilled by the prophets. If you were raised JW, you should know as well as anyone the how vividly accurate the prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon was centuries before it happened. How the prophets were able to give specific details about the fall of Babylon such as the diverting o the river, how the door was left open during the city-wide celebration, and the fact that Cyrus was named the conqueror of Babylon long before he was even born. Add in the fact that the Bible is so self-consistent despite the fact that it was written over the course of several thousand years by many people from many different backgrounds, and it surprises me how someone with such an intimate knowledge of the Bible as person should be who was raised JW could conceive of not having enough evidence to support the Bible as the Truth.
This account from Isaiah was one of my favorite prophecies, Babylon's fall to Cyrus. On the surface it seems like a good one. Unfortunately, we must realize that no original copies of Isaiah's book exists. Everything we have is left over from long after Babylon fell. If I'm to remain rational and objective here, I must disregard unverifiable accounts of “supposed prophecy” – otherwise I'd be accepting the Koran too. In my opinion, it is much more likely these sections of Isaiah were added after the fall of Babylon.
Some claim Israel becoming a nation is another good example of fulfilled prophecy. Besides being off by several centuries, Israel did in fact become a nation. However, this doesn't work either, because it's a prophecy believers influenced directly through ideological reasons. The Jews returned to Israel in order to "fulfill prophecy" God said it would happen, lets make it happen – when we can do that, it's just not legitimate fulfillment of prophecy. The Bible saying “there will be wars” is also not a prophecy. That's about like saying, “In the future, people will go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning.” I find none of the Bible prophecies particularly compelling.
Hmmm...you make a compelling point. I'll have to do some research on that subject. In terms of Israel, though, I would have to agree with you, self-fulfilling prophecy is just not convincing.
well for many God will provide all the evidence they need at armagedon and the scripture will be fulfilled "And they will have to know that I am Jehovah." for those who wait till then it will be too late, yes you WILL have alllllllll the proof you need in that day.
Robin, how on earth can that be morally correct? You're talking about a God who never speaks, who only communicates through an ancient book that can be interpreted numerous different ways -- offers absolutely no objective sound reliable means of demonstrating his existence from Zeus or Apolo. Then God proceeds to punish us for using the rational brain he gave us? I find your God reprehensibly immoral.
If God's intentions were to make his presence known "when it actually mattered" then, according to you, he fails horribly. Are you suggesting God is incompetent or just plain evil? A God that would hide himself from the world, only revealing himself through fluffy feelings, and spooky coincidences, and then finally showing himself and being "surprised" people didn't believe, is totally absurd -- especially if this God is omniscient. He would know exactly why I don't believe and what would have convinced me. Is God just trying to see what nonsense people will believe without justification? Believe this book or God will kill you. How is your God any different from a mafia boss? If you don't do what I say, I'll break your legs.
It means this God only cares about his own vanity. "Believe in me," regardless of how ridiculous it may appear to be. He apparently doesn't want his followers thinking very much at all. I'm supposed to use my intellect to reject all other religious ideologies. But God wants me to ignore those requirements for one particular book? A God that would punish someone for exercising skepticism is immoral. You are more moral than that concept of God.
"For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."-- a scripture i know you are familiar with God's qualties are seen from creation, whether is be zues or what ever god life shows at the very least that a god exists and that all things didnt just pop into existance out of nothing by nothing. Even if God would reveal himself toyou or to a man or to all men existing in one time period he would have to repeatedly do that since in 100 years from now someone can say oh theres no proof, he showed himself then but not now and the cycle would just repeat itself.
thats why God doesnt do that because if God wanted people to believe based on simply a miraculous event then he would have done it, even when jesus performed miracles he always charged them not to tell people becaus ehe didnt want people believing simple by sensational stories. Jesus even reprimanded those in his day when he said “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign" and again "Unless YOU people see signs and wonders, YOU will by no means believe.” so if we are looking for a sign from God were gonna be waiting a while.
Just a thought for the person whose question is dealt with first in this podcast:
If, in order to get saved and worship the God of truth, you need to join and subject yourself to an arrangement of lies - as commanded and conveniently provided by the WT-anointed - you ought to question and ponder the following assumptions:
1) the nature of 'truth' itself, (epistemological relativity)
2) the intellectual and spiritual integrity of the WT-anointed, including Watchman himself,
3) your own sanity and/or motivation for 'sucking up' to a god who ipso facto nullifies the value of Christ's sacrifice.
For if the value of His ransom sacrifice guarantees salvation only through the mediation of the WT, then Christ died for nothing, truth has perished, and faith is made redundant.
And we all know just who has a vested interest in achieving precisely such an outcome for the inexperienced and unwary. (1Jno 4:1)
Anzwertree,
1. First of all, good for you! You are going to college to hopefully, better yourself. It is a fact that most JW children are poorly educated and socially inadequate in the hard Sciences, social norms and anything outside the Kingdom Hall. Now not all people fall into that category but most certainly do. Most JWs are intentionally kept ignorant about a lot of things and even taught not to question what comes down from the WTB&TS. I will say that for the past decade, this trend has been changing as the younger generations have become fed up with the lies and all other garbage spewed forth from the controlling leadership. For the most part, there has been a lot of real Biblical “factual” truth given out and it is not my intention to take away from that. The problem lies within the “human” part of the equation, not so much the biblical portion but there are problems there also. Just look around EWatchman’s website and he will steer you the right way. –enough of that!
2. You should remember that ONLY YOU can take your journey to find God. Never ask someone else to do the work for you. YOU must be sincere and your heart and whole soul must be humble and willing to submit to a higher power beyond our understanding. --- Hence forth the reason why so many people are not at peace and are still wondering and looking but never finding. But like you said, Atheists groups are growing. Is this a coincidence? I think not.
3. You want easy answers? Ok, here are two ways in which you can verify the existence of our GOD.
1. You honestly and sincerely humble yourself before GOD in private, asking him for forgiveness and for him to direct your footsteps according to HIS will. IF you are honest hearted and sincere, you will know. If you are not honest and sincere, nothing will happen. Therein lies the problem isn’t it?
2. Go to college and earn your advanced, doctorate level degrees in the “hard Sciences.” After years of pure research and diligent work on your part, you will begin to “see” the supernatural design” in all things. But the catch is, your intellect must increase through your OWN effort. –Not built on the works of others. –YES, IT’S TRUE!! You really do become smarter…and better. But your attitude must change to “notice” the reality.
NOTE: Many people are simple and have little education, but they have found and they KNOW there is an almighty GOD. Funny how this basic fact puts so many “intellectuals” to shame isn’t it.
4. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else by this posting, however, you need to backup a bit and listen without drawing a conclusion and without crying, complaining or looking for more misfits in the world around you to give you support in your current pursuit of “atheism.” That is, if you really do have legitimate leanings toward this empty life. I guess we shall see as time moves on...
5. You do not need someone to furnish you the proof. You need to do the work and RESEARCH yourself! That is the secret to learning. Do the homework yourself and you will learn and you will positively KNOW that God is real. Believe me, misery and ignorance loves company in the world of academia.
6. The cry of college students is usually “take up any cause and look for others to support and strengthen you!” Choose the people you associate with carefully. When you take up a cause like this, you really never “learn” anything of value from the doctrines of mankind which have been skewered from the very beginning.
7. So, you don’t have any advanced degrees, no experience, no training, no –real life- expeditions or research into the existence of “God” –or anything else—no life experience …but you have already formulated an opinion, attitude and even pursuing the “no God” culture? All based on the reading of a few books, attending a seminar or two, watching a movie or two or perhaps having a deep conversation with some supposed intellectuals? Or was it the way you were brought up in a “Jehovah’s Witness family?” Is this WHY you are taking this course of action? The fact is you are young and have virtually no knowledge base to draw from. Think about that for a while before you become set in your ways.
8. LOL man, you need to stop right now and rethink your path. Don’t be so eager to jump on this or that POPULAR FAD. Be an individual and research the information yourself. Don’t let the ignorant and blind waste years of your life and then in the end, you simply die and are forgotten forever. Or is it just the here and now that you aspire to make a name for yourself? You are young! Don’t jump into a pit of foolish undesirables.
9. You should know the following about most, if not all of the top elite research and design professionals in Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Astronomy, and on and on; They state: "it becomes more evident that the universe and all life on this planet are by DESIGN.” “We do not know how, but it is evident from the beginning that some DIRECTED force caused all things to happen in a specific sequence in which reality as we know it today, is here and now as we perceive it.”
10. Now, these same world class, best-of-the-best, would never say anything like this on their way up the ladder to success. This is because of the pressure to conform and maintain the status quo. Top people have even lost their jobs because they spoke out about the clear evidence of a superior force –GOD—that has caused all things to be in nature. You get these same people in private conversation and they will speak wonders to you about the REALITY of GOD and the things we see around us from the heavens above to the depths of the oceans below us. In the public forum, most of these same ELITE are cowards and tow the party line and play politics.
11. Yes Sir! IF you REALLY wanted to know if there were a GOD or not, all you have to do is WATCH, LOOK AND LISTEN. You might just have an epiphany! Imagine that.
I wish you well on your journey,
KIM
Robin,
I would say that passage refers to the inexcusability of a person who believes in God to not reconize his qualities in nature. Once someone comes to know God, it is readily apparent how his qualities shine forth through his creation. This is NOT apparent from the perspective of someone who has not yet come to know God. Otherwise, if it were truly inexcusable for anyone to not recognize God through his creation alone, there would be no need for a mass resurrection so that people throughout history who did not get a chance to get to know God could get that chance. The logic would then be, well, they had the chance to look at nature and see God, but they choose not to. In other words, if that passage should be interpreted the way you are suggesting, there would be no one would be worthy of resurrection, since it has already been established that it was inexcusable for them not to recognize the existence of God from nature itself.
KIM, I agree that once you get to know God that there is a "fuzzy feeling" and a sense of not being alone that comes from that relationship with God, but this type of knowledge in and of itself is insufficient as PROOF. All people of all religions of the world have a "fuzzy feeling" and JUST KNOW that their gods exist; otherwise, they would not stick to their religion. (Some people might "stick" to the religion because of tradition and pressure, but not really believe it, but I'm talking about those who do embrace their respective religions with a passion.) We (or at least I) do not believe in Jehovah because of some warm fuzzy feeling...from an atheist point of view that would be a result of a defense mechanism that evolved in humanity to cope with sentience. If we want to be brutally honest with ourselves and the world around us, it is imperative that we constantly question why we believe what we believe, and if it's solely because we get a "warm fuzzy feeling" that simply isn't enough. I believe in and love Jehovah DESPITE the fact that my sentimental connection to my former life as a pagan and my pagan friends is still strong within me. It's true that in the secular world, one can take up a cause and then surround himself with those that support their cause, but that in and of itself does not invalidate the cause. Indeed, this is what religious people do as well. When one converts to a religion (such as when I began to take a serious look at the Bible and slowly became acquainted with the living God), one then proceeds to find others that share those beliefs. For me, in the beginning, this took the form of seeking out a Kingdom Hall--well before my conversion to Christianity, though, I did the same thing as well, I began to study various pagan traditions and then surrounded myself with people who shared those beliefs--this form of socialization is not limited to academia or secularism, nor does it invalidate the foundation upon which the socialization is founded.
Anon,
The "spirit awareness" that I am talking about has nothing to do with a "warm & fuzzy" feeling. When this "touch" of reality happens, there is no mistake about what has transpired. A person must experience it to fully grasp an understanding of one's spirit (so to speak) being recognized by GOD.
That would be the easiest and shortest way to explain it
KIM
Post Script: Proof comes in many forms. But I ask everyone this: By what RIGHT does mortal man demand proof of a GOD? Mankind must first humble themselves and submit to GOD. By this act of faith and works, knowledge will then be considered......the answers can be found in each person willing to follow the path of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Proxy,
Interesting phraseology in your post.
KIM
KIM,
Please do not take my words to be harsh or disrespectful, if I come off that way, I do not mean to.
Now, you can call it what you want, a warm and fuzzy feeling, the awe, wonder, and mystery that one is inspired to feel when they contemplate the complexities of the working universe, or "spirit awareness." Muslims claim the same exact feeling concerning their certainty of Allah as Christians claim about their certainty of YHVH (or the trinitarian God as the case may be).
I've "tried" many religions, and I've even tried atheism. The feeling of certainty I had that there was no God when I was an atheist was exactly the same as my certainty now of the existence of Jehovah. So why do I now believe in Jehovah when once I did not? What has changed? It isn't a change in my sentiment towards my current decision to believe vs the sentiment I had towards my decision not to believe. It's because I understand the complexities of the Bible and its prophecies and the ways in which prophecy has been fulfilled and how amazingly self-consistent the Bible is despite its having been written over the course of thousands of years. Now, am I saying that my belief has not changed me on an emotional level? Not at all. In fact, I've experience PHYSICAL changes in my mental an emotional processes that have been more powerful than anything I've felt in any other belief structure. Did this affect my view towards Jehovah? I think it would be more accurate to say that it INFLUENCED and reinforced an already existent belief structure. Would I base my beliefs solely on such changes in emotion? Perhaps to some extent, but that alone would not be enough for me to stop looking into other forms of spirituality b/c how do I know that I won't experience an even stronger emotional response to another tradition? It's the foundation of solid evidence that I have accumulated that renders the need to continue searching futile, not the emotional response. An understanding of Bible truth needs to be in place FIRST, and THEN comes the emotional experiences. Now, what about people who existed before we had the Bible? In those times, God spoke to people directly. That alone was evidence enough for those who heard it, and the truth of the message that surely would be relayed to other people served the same purpose that the Bible serves now.
Your point is well-taken, however, concerning the need to humble one's self. In terms of finding God, however, the Bible itself says God is searching the earth for people whose hearts would be open to accepting the truth. I take this to mean that the "humility" required is someone who is honest with themselves and those around them about what they perceive to be truth and who would be willing to accept truth when presented to them in a manner that God deems sufficient as proof. As to submitting to God, you cannot submit to a being you don't believe exists. I think a more accurate condition would be someone who has the POTENTIAL to be willing to learn God's will and to submit to God once the truth of his existence was realized.
I'd like to point out that I am in no way rejecting God out of some desire sin. Atheists also don't believe everything popped into existence out of nothing. That's what "theist" believe. God created everything out of nothing using magic. Atheists don't believe everything just popped into existence. That's absurd. First of all, we don't know what “was” before the big bang.
We can only calculate so far. Saying that there was "nothing" before the big bang is an unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence suggesting that everything popped into being out of nothing. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. That's the first law of thermodynamics. In other words, there was likely never a point in time where there was nothing. Even the notion is absurd. Think about it. Can "nothing" even exist? The question itself is contradictory. It's like saying nonexistence exists.
Back to Robin's remarks, those scriptures you used appear to demonize using logical thinking and rationality. We have to understand something here. Belief is not a choice. It's a binary position. You either believe or you don't. When I believe something I want justification. If your God chose to punish me for not believing something I found no good reason to believe in, then this God would be morally reprehensible.
Assuming God truly is love, what you described makes no sense at all. God finally shows himself. We finally have justification, and then God's all like... "Sorry, it's too late now. You were supposed to believe in a state of ignorance for no good reason. Now that you have evidence of what I actually want, and not just what a book says, or what people say I say, now that I'm here with justification, you have to die."
That God is a JERK!!!!
If God was real, he'd know why I don't believe. He'd know all the passages in his holy book that made me sick to my stomach. He would know I rejected belief for good reasons. Because I saw too many flaws inherent in the concept. He'd know I didn't just stop believing to sin all the time. He'd know I thought believing in something without reason was foolish. He'd know I didn't want to lie to myself and others just because I feared punishment or sought reward.
And if that turns out to be true, and I have to die for rejecting myths and superstitious stories, then that's okay. Personally, I wouldn't want nothing to do with this invisible delinquent father figure who calls himself a God. A God whose power and insight created the universe; yet in the end, it was all so easily trumped by his own vanity.
Anzwertree,
You need to take the advice already given above. You are a young pup! Also, perhaps God is not for a person like you, ever think about that? You don't want God, fine. God will forget about you.
Just live your life any way you want and when it is time for you to die, you will. That will be that and all that was you, will be forgotten.
Pretty easy huh?
So, GOODBYE!
What does my youth have to do with anything? But yeah, I agree. The God described here by most commenters only appears to want weak minded followers that don't care whether or not their beliefs are valid. As long as they believe. That's all he cares about.
He only wants blind loyalty from the ignorant masses who aren't capable of thinking for themselves. He doesn't want people using their brain. Gosh no! He only wants legions of drones programmed to carry out his every word. Raping women, murdering babies, incest, child sacrifice, all these are good things according to God. He likes nothing better than the smell of burnt flesh. What an awesome righteous God. You see... that's where me and your God part ways. Your idea of morality is doing what God says, regardless of what is right. My idea of morality is doing what is right, regardless of what we're told. Sure, I'd much rather be dead than worship this incompetent God. Your God is not worthy of worship.
Dawkins said it best, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
This is NOT apparent from the perspective of someone who has not yet come to know God. Otherwise, if it were truly inexcusable for anyone to not recognize God through his creation alone, there would be no need for a mass resurrection so that people throughout history who did not get a chance to get to know God could get that chance.
this is not a true Biblical claim since Paul said "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." fascilitating a need for a ressurection.
Dawkins said it best, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
Clearly this person didnt read the Bible.
It is apparent that Anzwertree has not read all of the good advice given to him. Perhaps the posts should be written in brail? The young and inexperienced are so impetuous at times. It must be special to ignore what is in front of you just to keep the friends that mislead and use you. Poor choice by any standards.
This puppy needs his shots! Ha Ha.
Robin,
First off, even JWs recognize the difference between Hades and Gehenna. There are people who have died who simply do not deserve to be resurrected again. Adam and Eve are two examples of such people. They have paid for their sins through their death. This does not mean they will be resurrected again. The Bible speaks of the Pharisees going to Gehenna. Simply put, just because someone paid for their sins through death DOES NOT entitle them to a resurrection. The resurrection is something given by God out of his love for us and through his grace. So, again, I say, if it were truly inexcusable, those people would not receive a resurrection.
Creation doesn't tell you anything, Robin. Please tell me. How does creation prove Christianity? How do you make the inferential leap from "Sun, moon, plants, trees, to "The Bible is the word of God"? Clearly creation is not enough to justify your claims. This same argument can be used to support Allah,or any number of contradictory gods.
And yes, Dawkins has read the Bible. Perhaps you just cherry picked the passages you favor. This God is anything but moral. Such as Numbers 31:17-18 where the Israelites were instructed to slaughter women, men, and children. Accept for the female virgins. They were to keep them for themselves.
I bet you think the 10 commandments are valid, but you don't stone your kids to death for disobedience. Homosexuality is a sin, but shellfish is probably okay. Nothing but a bunch of cherry picking hypocritical nonsense.
There is no context that makes this stuff acceptable. It's never morally correct to go into a city killing everything that moves, while taking female virgin slaves. Dawkins was at best being modest in his assessment.
And yes, Susan. I'd accept brail if there was actual evidence in it. I'm not sure what delusional world you live in, but here in reality there is most certainly nothing indicating the claims of the Bible to be accurate. The exact opposite, actually. All I see is the world in front of me with no correlation to any particular religious ideology.
All I see are a bunch of religions that don't agree on anything, and so I reject them all because they are all the same -- unjustified. If someone provided evidence of God, I'd convert on the spot. Assuming God exists, he would know I would have preferred believing all along. But that I could not bring myself to believe for selfish reasons. Fearing punishment, wanting a reward, none of these are good reasons.
Perhaps I am young and inexperienced. But at least I outgrew my imaginary friend.
Oh, and I appreciate your time and posts, Kim. You and proxygnosis appear to be the most civilized amongst the group here -- myself included ; )
Susan, being young and not understanding things is not an effective argument. Many young people understand things older people do not and vica verca. Understanding and comprehending things isn't nessasarcly associated by age, but rather the health of the brain and the education of the person. unless... you're saying Anzwertree is a infant not capable of understanding things (a blind one at that). This would degrade your speaking point to an insult. When using a insult that implies a disregard to the disabled and that blatantly avoids addressing the points a person brought up leads a intelligent person to simply conclude that you're the one who is an infant and who doesn't understand things because you cannot offer a simple, effective rebuttal. Your tactic has a name, believe it or not. It's called a logical fallacy. This is dishonest, and isn't dishonesty something you're god doesn't approve of? If I was as misguided and ignorant as you, right about now I'd probably be throwing my hands together and starting to whisper to omnipotent superstition while resting on my knees.
Question for KIM; Why do you think athiesm is empty?
On humbling yourself to god: I find the practice empty. Reading old tomes, and coming to personal conclusions based on my feelings was never a good barometer in my opinion. As an athiest myself, I have never found any satisfaction in viewing religious services, reading the bible or prayer. Science, though... science is something. Science will humble you, and quickly. It offers cold hard information that constantly improves on a day to day basis, collecting more and more data about the universe. Kim, have you ever studied cosmology? I have, and quite frankly, I find this to be a true humbling subject. The vastness of our universe, the amazing thing it is. And we're nothing, our tiny planet spins around a tiny sun, where googles of suns 24,000 times larger than our sun spin around a supermassive black hole. This is only our galaxy, and there are billions more... billions. To believe simple documents written by a primitive man trying to understand just the earth, and we thought we were the centre of the universe and god was the almighty force that controlled nature, and wars. With our understanding of this now, it just can't be so.
I don't completely reject god much like how I don't completely reject the idea that there isn't a god... but I reject the young earth bible story. It just isn't supported by the findings of evolution, the age of the earth, ect. Also, there are so many contradictions in the bible, how can anyone take it literally?
I'll push off with one thing: Since I have become an athiest, I've become a better person. To understand that you have one life, and one chance in this special place we call earth is just a real treasure. I want to make this world a better place, I want peace and I want love in this world. I want this because we're humans, we're special, and we're all we've got in this gigantic place. I don't want this because some ancient man said to love people, all while he'll condemn them to hell. I don't want everyone to think like me, but I do hope people want the same things as I do. I hope people find logic, critical thinking skills and a love for fellow man. I hope people would stop putting up walls while creating hate, discriminating on race, sexual orientation, gender, nationality, and more. I hope for the welfare of mankind, and the betterment of myself and the entire species. I am an athiest, and I think I'm a better person than most christians. I find the universe marvellous, and I treasure every moment I exist in it.
All the best,
-Isaac
IsaactheAthiest and Concerned Others,
Why do I think atheism is empty? Because atheism is not complete, it is not whole. It is lacking all things that complete a human creation. And I'll bet you can guess what that is!
Have I ever studied Cosmology? Yes, you might say that I have, among many, many other Sciences.
Two of my favorite books in this field are Principles of Physical Cosmology by P.J.E Peebles, and another by the same author is Quantum Mechanics. Now I can not go too far without a mention of another favorite which is Cosmology and Particle Astrophysics authored by Lars Bergstrom and Ariel Goobar. Both of these people hail from Stockholm University, Sweden. Which by the way, was a pretty cool place to be years ago. But, times have changed.
Gentleman, there is much to learn. You will not have enough time as life is to short! It is better to choose wisely and live a good life knowing that you will have a future beyond your imagination if you make the right choices.
I would like to clue all of you in on information that is vital to all human life. Regardless of your place in life on this planet known as Earth, you should remember that there really are entities far beyond our comprehension that we must acknowledge and respect. We do depend on these spiritual beings to fulfill our lives and answer our questions so that we, ourselves may grow and prosper and learn the true realities of “existence” it’s self.
Science has always fought the idea of a supreme being and the supernatural. The truth is all we have to do is take a moment and step back and SEE what has always been there for us. But we have systematically been trained to ignore and vilify what cannot be easily explained by our current level of scientific development.
I have a few matters to attend to right now so I will have to pursue this discourse at some later time. We shall talk again. It has been enjoyable.
I wish you well,
KIM
Isaac... all I can say is wow! Awesome post, dude. It wasn't rude or condescending at all like mine. I had no idea you were such an excellent writer.
Okay, Kim. I have a few remarks. You understand that atheism isn't an ideology, right? There are no atheist creeds or tenants. By saying atheism is incomplete leads me to think you're still not fully understanding what atheism is. It's not a belief system. Atheism is a response to one claim. That's it. Atheism is a single position to one particular matter -- do you believe gods exist? Theists say yes, atheists reject this assumption as unjustified.
As I've explained before, however. Atheism is not a claim that there are no gods. It isn't a belief in no gods. Picture a court case. Just because you haven't found someone to be guilty doesn't mean you're claiming the person is innocent. It just means you have not been convinced of his or her guilt. Atheism is virtually the same thing. Atheism is a plead of "not guilty" -- not that we're all postulating there are certainly no gods. We just haven't found justification to render a guilty verdict. I hope the illustration makes sense.
I am all about making good decisions. Life is important to me. The people I love and care for are important to me. Truth is important to me. If I am to dedicate myself to a cause, then I must know that cause is worthy of my time and energy. Science, on the other hand, has proven to be a worthy cause. Those unknown mysteries you spoke of were not revealed by any religion. Go get a clipboard and think of all the advances of science over the decades. Then compare that list to all the advances of religion. What's the score? You see, scientists understands their science doesn't know everything. If they thought it did, they would stop.
anzwertree,
if that's what atheism is, then what differentiates atheism from agnosticism?
Kim,
I read your posts with enthusiasm. Is this the professor Kim of 'OPS' fame? We thought so! This is David & Lisa L from Yale class of '79. Long time no see from the Army. I knew you retired. Look us up and call us some time. Everyone says hello.
Hey David!
Glad to hear from you! Funny how we gravitated to The Watchman's website. I hope the family is in good health and tell everyone hello for me.
Go to the OC-HQ and ask for Debbie in the research department. She has my contact information or if you wish, leave your info with her and I'll call in for it.
KIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbQ9W4aB0o
For all of you wannabe Atheism inclined people, copy and paste the link above and see what you can look forward to.
What a thankless job to be God: Half the world hates you for the wrong reasons, and the other half worships you for the wrong reasons - no one understands you, and you're all alone!
As for us: If one were to believe in God, and He turned out to be non-existent, one would end up looking like a fool.
On the other hand, if He does exist, and hence created everything, our not acknowledging Him would constitute a major insult to our Maker and Benefactor, the One who potentially loves us.
Perhaps we should cut Him some slack and give Him the benefit of the doubt - even to the end of the end - He might do the same for us.
There is a chance He knows what He is doing, and we end up kicking ourselves for not trusting Him.
Isaac,'
so you like science and nature, guess what, so too does God, that's why He made it for us to discover and enjoy forever. He gets more kicks out of seeing us exploring and being fascinated by it, than the stuff by itself means to Him.
Moreover, your wanting this world to be a peaceful and loving place, shows you are much in tune with God's ideas, for that too is His ultimate goal.
First however, He lets His challenger - the god responsible for the mess throughout human history - have a final crack at uniting mankind under his global NWO fascist dictatorship, now looming.
Afterwards, God will banish all fascists to oblivion and bring about a world of beauty and love for the few worthy survivors.
Atheism is on its way out now: There is but one choice between God and god.
Dear Kim;
I still don't understand why athiesm is empty. You really haven't said anything beyond generalizing with: "Because atheism is not complete, it is not whole."
Why is that so? Then you say;
" It is lacking all things that complete a human creation."
How do you know humans were created? Is it that you believe it based on a popularized young earth theistic view on judo-christian allegories? Or do you have other evidence to support your claim? Remember, I'm interested in proof, not feelings or thoughts. continue;
"And I'll bet you can guess what that is! " You're suggesting an answer based off of an idea I do not agree with. You have not made a point, you have only told me the same thing with a few more sentences that depend on a belief I personally reject, and I reject this belief with fair amounts of reason and facts that disprove young earth creationism that is popular with theists.
Kim, you say: "there is much to learn... It is better to choose wisely and live a good life knowing that you will have a future... if you make the right choices." But what are the right choices? This is called a red herring, btw. Obviously, people want to make the right choices, so you're assuming atheism is unwise and a wrong choice with your style of writing, thus rejecting anyone else who might disagree with you. I personally believe you have not been deprogrammed from watchtower literature yet. WTBS uses these types of arguments all of the time and I constantly see people who are of a older age coming out of the WTBS using these same types of arguments for politics, religion, social issues and whatever cause they have taken up. I hope this does not sound insulting, but I highly recommend you to take a good hard look at yourself and your belief system and ask yourself about where it comes from. Does it come from preconceived ideas that people manipulated you with, or is it based on something you can prove and know with a full heart. Not, believe, but know. If you know things, you'll be able to share the reasons why you know them and not default onto generalizations and red herrings to trick people into your line of reasoning. I don't think you're trying to mislead people on purpose, your line of logic is just simply a product of a cult mentality, it's ok... I just hope you realize that you're doing it from here on out and take the steps to correct that or at least bring some logical arguments to the table, that's all.
Let's continue:
"The truth is all we have to do is take a moment and step back and SEE what has always been there for us. But we have systematically been trained to ignore and vilify what cannot be easily explained by our current level of scientific development. "
Your argument isn't really well established, so this climax of truth from falsehood isn't really any type of revelation to me. You again, generalize, claiming people have been trained to ignore the supernatural. I hate to break it to ya, but the whole purpose of science is to step back and SEE what has always been around us... without prejudice or preconceived ideas, especially of the religious type. Science observes the things we don't understand and tries to explain them. To simply say there are things that cannot be explained is just a claim to ignorance. Ultimately ignorance is just that, ignorance. To understand that you're ignorant and you want to understand the world without bias, preconceived ideas based on hopes and wishes and to reject logical fallacy is the first step to becoming an athiest.
Let me make it clear: I don't reject the idea of god, nor do I reject the idea of god not existing. I only reject logical fallibly, bias, superstition, or hocus pocus. That is all theists are able to offer in the way of proving god to me, and I'm just not convinced. Remember, extraordinary claims (ie. god creating man) require extraordinary evidence. Where is yours?
Thanks Kim.
proxygnosis,
"so you like science and nature, guess what, so too does God, that's why He made it for us to discover and enjoy forever. He gets more kicks out of seeing us exploring and being fascinated by it, than the stuff by itself means to Him."
Scientific method does not prove nor disprove god in any way. You also construct this idea in that I believe in some god, I do not believe or disbelieve. My point is one of no belief. There is no evidence for god, so I do not believe in one..yet, therefore I don't agree with the assertions that; "The only reason you find the world fascinating is because god made it that way." But let's ask a question; is any world god doesn't make not fascinating? Why is god only fascinating? Better yet, let's explore your god and his fascinations.
Do think god was fascinated when humans discovered modern medicine and stopped dying of plagues and illness he created... saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of young and old alike? Do you think god was fascinated when mainstream Christianity took part in plunging the entire world into the dark ages where science and logic were something people would be killed over and ignorance and superstition prevailed causing some of the worst conditions world-wide, under the guise of "god"? One thing I don't understand about this superstition you worship is that, if your god is so perfect and wonderful. Why didn't he make the world perfect to start with? I mean if god didn't want war, humans would not be capable of it, if god didn't want rape, humans would not be capable of it, if god didn't want murder, humans would not be capable of it, and if a perfect god needed to be worshiped all of the time, humans would be able to do that. Under the falty logic of judo-christian theists, one can assume god created murder, rape, war and more, considering he is the creator of all things.
Might I also add, the whole idea of hailing a perfect god is a misnomer to begin with. To say you have a perfect god who is deficient and needs to be worshiped does not make him perfect. Much like saying, god is perfect, but created imperfect man is also strange. If god is perfect and creates imperfection, does it not make him imperfect?... or is his creation perfect because it's imperfect? While most theists will wipe this argument away with a simple; "It's not as easy as that" all while they themselves use the same logic to come to conclusions with black and white scenarios their own personal judgments over the course of history regarding abortions, civil rights, slavery, primitive justice and more.
Let's continue;
"NWO fascist dictatorship, now looming. Afterwards, God will banish all fascists to oblivion and bring about a world of beauty and love for the few worthy survivors."
I run into this stuff a lot with ex-jws. Conspiracy... a search for truth and a doomsday looming. You have no credible claims for your convictions, much like when you were a jw telling people Armageddon was coming. I suggest you seek a therapist for some help to uncover the reason why you need the world and life to be this way. I assure you it isn't what you think it is. Just because you broke away from the JWs doesn't mean you broke away from their brainwashing, it sounds like it is alive and kicking in someone like you. I mean this in the kindness of ways, but please get some mental help or at least consider it if you have insurance. It did wonders for me.
All the best
-Isaac
ATTENTION Fellow Brothers & Sisters
It is apparent that Isaac and the other minions of atheism are wasting our time and good intentions. Please do not waste your words or talent. Do not cast your pearls before swine my brothers.
Ignore these people as they have no respect for others. The snare of Satan has already tightened around their neck.
A Little One
"Ignore these people as they have no respect for others. The snare of Satan has already tightened around their neck. "
Like jehovah's witnesses should ignore those who don't believe their religion or who are considered apostates? Give me a break.
Besides, where does it say in your fairytale filled with gore, human sacrifice, rape, murder and incest that you should give up on people who don't believe in your book filled with historical nonsense and lies? Perhaps you only believe this because the watchtower taught you to expel people who didn't believe as you did. Consider your ideas, consider your thoughts. Act with rationality. Like one of my friends often says... don't run on automatic, think.
After this, I will post no more. All credit given to the Watchtower society. This article is used under the fair use copyright act for education purposes.
IS BELIEF IN GOD REASONABLE?
HAVE you wondered why everything from atomic particles to vast galaxies is governed by precise mathematical laws? Have you reflected on life itself—its variety, its complexity, and its amazing design? Many attribute the universe and the life in it to a great cosmic accident and evolution. Others give credit to an intelligent Creator. Which viewpoint do you feel is more reasonable?
Of course, both viewpoints involve faith. Belief in God rests on faith. As the Bible says, “no man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Likewise, no human saw the forming of the universe or the commencement of life. Nor has anyone ever seen one kind of life evolve into a higher kind or even into a different kind. The fossil record shows that the major groups of animals appeared suddenly and have remained virtually unchanged.* The key question, therefore, is this: Which faith sits on a firm foundation—faith in evolution or faith in a Creator?
Is Your Faith Based on Solid Evidence?
Genuine “faith,” says the Bible, is “the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Hebrews 11:1) The New English Bible renders the verse this way: “Faith . . . makes us certain of realities we do not see.” No doubt you can think of a number of unseen realities in which you firmly believe.
To illustrate: Many respected historians believe that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Jesus Christ once lived. Is the faith of these historians sound? Yes, for they can point to authentic historical evidence.
Scientists too believe in unseen realities because of the “evident demonstration” that those realities exist. For example, the 19th-century Russian chemist Dmitry Mendeleyev became entranced with the relationship between the elements, the basic building blocks of the universe. He realized that they had certain things in common and could be grouped by both atomic weight and chemical properties. Because of his faith in the order of the groups, he drafted the periodic table of the elements and correctly predicted the existence of a number of elements unknown at the time.
If ancient structural design is attributed to humans, to whom do we attribute design in nature?
1. Inca ruins; 2. A flower; 3. Stars
Archaeologists draw conclusions about earlier civilizations, often from items that have lain buried for thousands of years. Imagine, for example, that an archaeologist has unearthed dozens of carefully cut stone blocks of precisely the same size neatly aligned on top of one another. They are also set out in a distinct geometric pattern that does not occur naturally. What would the archaeologist conclude? Would he attribute his find to coincidence? Most likely not. Rather, he would interpret it as evidence of past human activities, and that would be a reasonable conclusion.
To be consistent, should we not apply the same reasoning to the design manifest in the natural world? Many people have taken that view, including respected scientists.
Blind Chance or Purposeful Design?
Years ago, British mathematician, physicist, and astronomer Sir James Jeans wrote that in the light of advancing scientific knowledge, “the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine.” He also stated that “the universe appears to have been designed by a pure mathematician” and that it provides “evidence of a designing or controlling power that has something in common with our own individual minds.”
Other scientists have arrived at a similar conclusion since Jeans penned those words. “The overall organization of the universe has suggested to many a modern astronomer an element of design,” wrote physicist Paul Davies. One of the most famous physicists and mathematicians of all time, Albert Einstein, wrote: “The fact that [the natural world] is comprehensible is a miracle.” In the eyes of many, that miracle includes life itself, from its fundamental building blocks to the amazing human brain.
DNA and the Human Brain
DNA is the genetic material of all cellular organisms and the molecular basis for heredity.# This complex acid has been compared to a blueprint or a recipe, for DNA is packed with information, which is encoded in chemical form and stored in a molecular environment that is capable of interpreting that code and acting on it. How much information is stored in DNA? If the basic units, called nucleotides, were converted into letters of the alphabet, they would “occupy more than a million pages of a typical book,” says one reference.
In most organisms, DNA is bundled up into threadlike bodies called chromosomes, which are safely stored inside each cell’s nucleus. The nuclei, in turn, have an average diameter of about 0.0002 of an inch. Think about that—all the information that produced your unique body is found in tiny packages that have to be observed under a microscope! As one scientist rightly said, living organisms have “by far the most compact information storage/retrieval system known.” That’s saying something when you reflect on the memory capacity of computer chips, DVDs, and the like! What is more, DNA has by no means revealed all its secrets. “Every discovery reveals a new complexity,” says New Scientist magazine.%
Is it reasonable to attribute such perfection of design and organization to blind chance? If you were to stumble across a highly technical manual a million pages thick and written in an efficient, elegant code, would you conclude that the book somehow wrote itself? What if that book were so small that you needed a powerful microscope to read it? And what if it contained precise instructions for the manufacture of a self-repairing, self-replicating intelligent machine with billions of parts, all of which had to be fitted together at precisely the right time and in the right way? To be sure, the notion that such a book just happened would not even enter one’s mind.
After examining current research on the inner workings of the cell, British philosopher Antony Flew, once a leading champion of atheism, stated: “The almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), [show] that intelligence must have been involved.” Flew believes in “following the argument no matter where it leads.” In his case it led to a complete change in thinking, so that he now believes in God.
DNA is like a microscopic book that contains precise instructions for intelligent life
1. DNA; 2. A book; 3. A microscope; 4; A human brain; 5. A boy
The human brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe”
The human brain too leaves many scientists in awe. A product of DNA, the brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe.” Even the most advanced supercomputer looks positively primitive next to this approximately three-pound pinkish-gray mass of neurons and other structures. In the opinion of one neuroscientist, the more that scientists learn about the brain and the mind, “the more magnificent and unknowable it becomes.”
Consider: The brain enables us to breathe, laugh, cry, solve puzzles, build computers, ride a bicycle, write poetry, and look up at the night sky with a sense of reverential awe. Is it reasonable—indeed, consistent—to attribute these abilities and capacities to blind evolutionary forces?
Belief Based on Evidence
In order to understand ourselves, should we look down, as it were, to apes and other animals, as evolutionists do? Or should we look up to God for answers? Granted, we have certain things in common with animals. We have to eat, drink, and sleep, for example, and we are able to reproduce. Still, we are unique in many ways. Reason suggests that our distinct human traits stem from a Being higher than ourselves—that is, from God. The Bible put that thought succinctly, stating that God formed mankind “in his image” morally and spiritually speaking. (Genesis 1:27) Why not contemplate God’s qualities, some of which are recorded at Deuteronomy 32:4; James 3:17, 18; and 1 John 4:7, 8.
SHOULD RELIGIOUS EVILS JUSTIFY DISBELIEF IN GOD?
Many people do not believe in a Creator because of the well-known abuses and corruptions that blacken the history of many religions. Is that a sound reason for disbelief? No. “The excesses and atrocities of organized religion,” says Roy Abraham Varghese in his preface to Antony Flew’s book There Is a God, “have no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God, just as the threat of nuclear proliferation has no bearing on the question of whether E=mc2.”*
* Energy equals mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light.
Our Creator has given us the “intellectual capacity” to investigate the world around us and to find satisfying answers to our questions. (1 John 5:20) In this regard, physicist and Nobel laureate William D. Phillips wrote: “When I examine the orderliness, understandability, and beauty of the universe, I am led to the conclusion that a higher intelligence designed what I see. My scientific appreciation of the coherence, and the delightful simplicity of physics strengthens my belief in God.”
Some two thousand years ago, a discerning observer of the natural world wrote: “[God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” (Romans 1:20) The writer—the Christian apostle Paul—was an intelligent man and highly educated in the Mosaic Law. His reason-based faith made God a reality to him, while his acute sense of justice moved him to give due credit to God for his creative works.
It is our sincere hope that you too will see that it is not at all unreasonable to believe in God. In fact, like Paul, may you do more than simply believe that He exists. May you also grow to appreciate—as millions already have—that Jehovah God is a spirit person with endearing qualities that resonate in the human heart and draw us to him.—Psalm 83:18; John 6:44; James 4:8.
That article is so easy to deconstruct. I can't believe you even posted it here. You post pro-watchtower stuff on a anti-watchtower board? How brainwashed are you? Let's move forward:
"Many attribute the universe and the life in it to a great cosmic accident and evolution. Others give credit to an intelligent Creator. Which viewpoint do you feel is more reasonable?"
Who cares about feelings? Religious people, of course. That is how they operate, and of course, they appeal to a person's feelings hoping they will sway their thoughts. "What viewpoint do you feel..." It doesn't matter how you feel about things, it matters about facts. You may feel that it isn't snowing outside, even though there is clear documented evidence there is a blizzard outside, it doesn't negate the facts. Just because people feel things doesn't make them negate the truth or facts. Much like how evolution has mountains of evidence it doesn't negate the facts that there is such evidence that disproves a young earth. Period.
Lets continue;
"Of course, both viewpoints involve faith." Absolutely not. My viewpoint isn't based on faith at all, it is based on observable facts or lacktherof. Let's get something clear here, the JW's are trying to lower facts or lack of knowledge down to their level to make it easier to attack. Faith and knowledge are two different things and to ignore this is to ignore a lot. It questions the motives of the person providing the information.
"To illustrate: Many respected historians believe that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Jesus Christ once lived. Is the faith of these historians sound? Yes, for they can point to authentic historical evidence."
People can point of historical evidence to prove some of these things. I love how they casually threw in Jesus. Modern accounts of Jesus are not verified by any respectable historian, in fact most accounts except for two that had been written decades after the gospel have been thrown out for being frauds. Historians believe Jesus existed in the same way most other prophets existed during that time. Further, there is no evidence to suggest that the historical suggestions of gospel of Matthew occurred. (i.e. the capture and mass murder of babies, something that would have been documented... by someone.) Continue;
"The New English Bible renders the verse this way: “Faith . . . makes us certain of realities we do not see.” No doubt you can think of a number of unseen realities in which you firmly believe."
Asking rhetorical questions, eh? Sure I can't see the air, and it is reality... but it isn't god. It's a measurable scientific thing I can not only know of, but also predict. Same thing goes for the feeling of temperature on our skin or heck, even atoms, molecules and DNA. We cannot see them but we understand them through the process of trying to. We don't understand them through dogma, we understand them through the advances in technology. If we relied on the bible to explain these things, we wouldn't and couldn't make progress as species.
"Scientists too believe in unseen realities because of the “evident demonstration” that those realities exist. For example, the 19th-century Russian chemist Dmitry Mendeleyev became entranced with the relationship between the elements, the basic building blocks of the universe. He realized that they had certain things in common and could be grouped by both atomic weight and chemical properties. Because of his faith in the order of the groups, he drafted the periodic table of the elements and correctly predicted the existence of a number of elements unknown at the time."
I hate this shit. Dmitry observed and made conclusions based on his observations, not faith in a unknown. And guess, what....? He was right after studying and knowing. Not every scientist is, but he was and he shaped our world and understanding of science causing many wonderful advances in our world.
I'll get at rest of this later, gotta hit the sack, but it isn't a group of ideas you should be proud to stand behind. They are false, unscientific and illogical. You should come back and argue your points in your own voice. Hiding behind illogical false arguments convinces me you don't know enough about a subject and you don't know what to say. You believe in god, you accept nothing else so you use other people's ideas to project your own prejudice. After all, in a world of knowledge and information, your only rebuttal is to post some poorly written article filled with misinformation to prove your point? I honestly feel sorry for you, I feel sorry you cannot debate this simple issue and you cannot respond to simple questions about your faith.
If I had a faith like yours, I'd hope to defend it with logic and facts, but you do neither. You post circular, logically fallacious arguments by a cult. I feel sorry for you.
All the best,
Isaac
One other thing I'd like to point out add to Isaac's sentiments is this: I know it's been said over and over again by many atheists and non-atheists alike, but fundamentalists just do not seem to comprehend the fact that EVOLUTION IS NOT PURE CHANCE. It's called natural SELECTION for a reason, because natures SELECTS for mutations that are beneficial over those that hinder a species. Species with mutations that help them to survive will outlive their counterparts without that mutation BECAUSE of the mutation itself, while species with mutations that hinder their survival will die out BECAUSE of their mutation, which is why (according to evolution) life so seemingly organized. While I'm on the topic as well, evolution DOES NOT say that life came from the mud...that's what the Bible says (man was created from the dust of the earth). In fact evolution does not say anything about how life originated, only how one life form came from a previously existing life-form. The scientifically accepted theory of the creation of life without a creator is called abiogenesis.
As far as the formation of the stars...we know they are created from natural processes. We have seen this and continue to see this occur in the Orion Nebula which forms a so-called stellar nursery. There is nothing magical going on there...it's all physics, and it's observable. The formation of stars through purely natural processes.
While I personally do not believe in evolution because I DO believe in the Bible, when theists make claims about science with a view to their faith, I feel compelled to expose the erroneous thinking, because, honestly, all your efforts to explain away scientific reasoning with fallacious logic does nothing except expose the hypocrisy. If you have not taken the time to make a serious inquiry into science, the scientific process, how logic works, etc...(and a bit more research than a half-hearted google search on the subject)...please do not step into territory you are ill-equipped to handle, because all it does is make the rest of us who have faith even though we may understand the logical fallacies of our not-so-educated counterparts look like idiots. And please do not take that statement to be degrading, I realize that not everyone is suited for academic pursuits, and that's OK, just don't pretend to be something you're not, that's all I'm saying, or if you are suited for such things, then make a concerted effort to educate yourself on a topic, again, by doing more than a simple google search, before you speak on that topic.
Hello IsaactheAthiest AKA Anzwertree AKA JOSHUA,
Your caught in another lie. How ignorant are you? Did you miss this blaring fact?
"You post pro-watchtower stuff on a anti-watchtower board? How brainwashed are you?"
Your statement shows how much you don't know and shows how you like to twist and deceive people. This site does NOT hate the JWs or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Strange you didn't notice that fact with such a big brain you have. Could it be all of that smoke you suck in each day from those cancer sticks in your mouth? So smart and not even wise enough to not smoke. What a joke your parents raised!
This site does point out the wrong information given out by Watchtower. Some of the people that post here don't like the Watchtower. However, that has nothing to do with the site's direction. HOW FOOLISH YOU LOOK!! Perhaps you should read and know what your talking about. Or smoke some more it makes you look so sophisticated just like a fancy ashtray!
You say a lot of things but YOU DON'T READ THE POSTS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Look at all that you are posting. The posts above each one of yours that you post about, you conveniently ignore certain areas, why? Won't you get a little pat on the back and a wink-wink from your roommates?
Wonder how much of a student loan you took out to go to your community college? HaHA! Did you get kicked out of your family home because of your immoral behavior? Did you embarrass your parents due to disrespectful actions? Oh yes, that's right! It was your mighty brain power that decides these things. HaHAHaHa!
Why don't you go over all of your postings and answer the information and questions you have ignored? Scared to? Are you afraid that your 'buddies" won't love you anymore.
IS This You Anzwertree AKA Isaac AKA JOSHUA?
Name: Joshua
Channel Views: 12,813
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Age:26
Joined: November 07, 2008
Last Visit Date: 4 hours ago
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This channel first started when I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I started making videos back in 2008. Slowly though, my faith was challenged, and eventually I left the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Since then, I have gradually outgrew my belief in Jehovah. Today I am a proud free thinking atheist, and it was indeed an evolutionary process. I'd like to thank everyone who has helped me over the years. I look forward to exploring a world that I never intended to be part of.
You'll still find some of my older videos when I was a theist. I decided to leave them here to remind me where I came from.
My number one goal now is to seek out people I had once distrusted due to my own biased ideology and distorted worldview. I'm looking to expanding my perception and embracing a world I had once forsaken.
About Me:
What is there to say, really? I'm an ex-Jehovah's Witness who still enjoys discussing religion. Even though I consider myself anti-religious, spirituality is an important subject to me.
Hometown:
Who knows?
Country:
United States
Occupation:
sales, hobbyist software development, web design, and writer
Interests:
technology, deep thinking, religion, spirituality, relationships, women, and anything else that confuses me
WILL BE SEEING YOU SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT WONDERFUL THINGS!
Lots of love and kisses from YouTube!
Amoralist Hunter of the Internet,
I'm sorry if I have ignored points. I don't mean to. Please let me know what points you'd like to discuss and I'd be more than happy to talk more about them. Lets continue.
"Your caught in another lie. How ignorant are you? Did you miss this blaring fact?" E-watchman is something I have been reading for awhile, e-watchman is a sectarian group with ideas that are different. They oppose views the watchtower holds to be true. Thus, they are anti-watchtower. Perhaps my choice of language is something you find extreme, but I assure you the meaning is not.
"Your statement shows how much you don't know and shows how you like to twist and deceive people. This site does NOT hate the JWs or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society." If I twist and deceive people, please point out something other than your half-baked point above arguing semantics over a point that is valid. Also, I never claimed e-watchman hates JWs or the WTBS.
"Strange you didn't notice that fact with such a big brain you have. Could it be all of that smoke you suck in each day from those cancer sticks in your mouth? So smart and not even wise enough to not smoke. What a joke your parents raised! " This is a "Ad Hominem" attack, you don't address the issue of the facts people like Josh bring up, you are only trying to attack his charterer and it is childish, please stop. If you want to have an adult discussion on adult topics, you ought to behave in a civilized fashion. Besides, it doesn't matter if someone smokes, if the message is vaild, it's vaild. Besides, Rutherford smoked. Do you not listen to any teachings by the rutherford reform because he was a smoker? His points were not more or less valid because he smoked. Smoking doesn't change your personalty, just your outlook of health.
By the way, I'm not Josh, and Josh isn't me. We're two really different people. If you'd like to visit my youtube channel you're welcome to. You can find me here: Feel free to make fun of me or whatnot. I've not made a video for a long time, but my most popular insults are "Fag" and "Psycho". People tell me all of the time that they hope I die or get AIDS. Christians are so friendly, wouldn't you agree?
All the best,
Isaac
Whoops, forgot the link: www.youtube.com/user/benjaminisaacallen
Anzwertree,
My dad had a good friend who was an atheist. He did not believe in God just the same way you don’t. I thought it was pretty strange for someone not to believe in God. It just didn’t make any sense to me. Nonetheless, he was a very good person. He took very good care of his family. Overall, he was a likeable, hard working and caring individual. We all loved him. He was like a father figure to me and my siblings. So the fact that he didn’t believe in the existence of a Supreme Being, did not diminish our respect for him.
However, we find out to our big surprise that he was not an atheist after all. You see, on his death bed at the hospital he acknowledged that there is indeed a God, as he drew his last breath. I don’t think he had an epiphany or revelation. As a matter of justification, I think he was thankful to God for his life and he finally admitted it as he was about to expire. So I think that many atheists may not be atheistic at all.
Could it be that you merely think that you are an atheist as a way of coping with an emotional void in your life? In the end you will find that only God can fill that void or emptiness in your life, the same void that is present in all of us. It is no wonder that our good friend mentioned at the outset could not contain his heartfelt desire to acknowledge that “there is a God,” upon drawing his last breath.
Stone
With all the evolutionary science classes i have taken and personal conversations with my professors who believe in evolution and laugh at the idea of a god, let alone The God had so many misconceptions about the Bible i understood why they believed in evolution. None the less after hearing my professors explain these things to me i saw how much faith it took to believe in it, more faith than it takes me to believe in the God of the bible.
Robin,
How does believing in evolution require more faith than god? I don't just plan on taking your word for it because you talked to people or sat in a classroom. After all, if you took some classes, perhaps you could give us your take from a scientific standpoint of why and what parts of evolution require faith?
Thanks in advance
The idea of nothing appearing out of nothing without a controled cause. before matter came into existance there was nothing, not even the potential for anything to come into existance. Time and matter were brought about at the same time, for all matter is subject to time through the process of decay so if nothing is subject to time, then time doesnt exist so both time and matter come into existance at the same point.
the world, the more we learn about it, we have come to know that it has a set of rules or laws that it follows which makes science even possable. for if everything happened randomly as is taught by some that through a random series of events all that we know comes to exist and would have come to exist eventually through random chance. If this was the case then science wouldnt be possable for the universe would c ontinue to exist in a random state and theories would not be possable or provable since totest anything in science ones findings must be able to be recreated under similiar circumstances, but if everything worked in a random series of events then you couldnt test your findings since no 2 circumstances would be available within ones lifetime due to the numerous probablilities available. but we see that is NOT the case, nature in many ways is predictable due to the laws of nature which have been put in place by God to the believer and by random chance to the unbeliever.
Granted no one can say or can testify that anything in existance now randomly appeared from nothing out of nothing. For example as i am typing this comment, if things can just randomly pop into existance, as the universe is said to have appeared(through a seris of random events collectively generating matter, and eventually all life through this process), then why cant a giraffe or a building or another unniverse pop into existance through this same process? if a complex system that is self sustaining can just appear of out nothing, not even the potential for something to existance being avaiable why not now.
Now if you want to talk about faith and the need for faith sit in on a evolutionary science class. by comparison to the believer all things came into existance through an intelligent being and that all we see that shows "design" or at least the hint of design can help one draw the conclusion either there is no designer or there is.
"The idea of nothing appearing out of nothing without a controled cause. before matter came into existance there was nothing, not even the potential for anything to come into existance."
This is not evolution.
"Time and matter were brought about at the same time"
Not evolution.
"all matter is subject to time through the process of decay so if nothing is subject to time, then time doesnt exist so both time and matter come into existance at the same point."
Not evolution.
"the world, the more we learn about it, we have come to know that it has a set of rules or laws that it follows which makes science even possable. "
Laws that make science possible? Not so. Explain quantum physics. There is not an order, set or laws to that mess at all. It's totally random. (and I'm not talking about that metaphysical crap they talk about in self-help books)
"for if everything happened randomly as is taught by some that through a random series of events all that we know comes to exist and would have come to exist eventually through random chance."
Evolution does not say that. You say that, not evolution.
"If this was the case then science wouldnt be possable for the universe would c ontinue to exist in a random state and theories would not be possable or provable since totest anything in science ones findings must be able to be recreated under similiar circumstances"
Not evolution.
"but if everything worked in a random series of events then you couldnt test your findings since no 2 circumstances would be available within ones lifetime due to the numerous probablilities available."
Not true and not evolution.
"nature in many ways is predictable due to the laws of nature which have been put in place by God to the believer and by random chance to the unbeliever."
You got this so backwards. Evolution says things are predictable, and it is the foundation of modern biology as we know it. You're using modern scientific theories born from evolution to support your claims that evolution believes in random chance and only creationist believe in things happening in sequences and of them being predictable? Huh?
"Granted no one can say or can testify that anything in existance now randomly appeared from nothing out of nothing."
You are testifying a god that came from nothing and made something out of nothing (I imagine this is the term you're looking for when using nothing from nothing) You're basically doing exactly what you're accusing people of doing. But on your own logic, "No one can say or testify". If that is so, why are you testifying?
"For example as i am typing this comment, if things can just randomly pop into existance, as the universe is said to have appeared(through a seris of random events collectively generating matter, and eventually all life through this process), then why cant a giraffe or a building or another unniverse pop into existance through this same process? "
This is not the topic of evolution.
"if a complex system that is self sustaining can just appear of out nothing, not even the potential for something to existance being avaiable why not now."
Complex systems do not pop in and out of existence. Research and theories about cells are interesting and might have more to say than evolution, and it's a science called abiogenesis and is not related to the study of evolution. I will also state, you as a creationst accuse people who accept evolution for something you believe. You believe a god pops things into existence... people who accept and follow evolution do not.
"Now if you want to talk about faith and the need for faith sit in on a evolutionary science class. by comparison to the believer all things came into existance through an intelligent being and that all we see that shows "design" or at least the hint of design can help one draw the conclusion either there is no designer or there is."
Where and in what way is there a "Design"?
Robin, I believe you have lied to me about attending classes on evolution. If you had been to any accredited school for science courses and you studied or at least listened to the lectures you would understand how evolution is a provable, observable phenomenon that occurs in nature's laws you tease me with. Evolution does not attempt to explain matter, space, time, the creation of the universe, creation of the first cell, ect. Evolution explains how things change from generation to generation, then it explains how species have changed over time for it. This has been proven in the fossils we have collected, DNA, the examination of living animals today and their similarities, modern observable effects of artificial selection, natural selection, and micro evolution and macro evolution. Again, lets get this straight: people believe in evolution because it is proven, carbon based life forms evolve and change.
:et's get something clear here. Evolution has been able to demonstrate that it is a provable science, and it by proxy disproves the first book in the bible. You believe that evolution is false because you have to. Evolution has to be wrong or your wrong about your belief. Again, you believe it because your bible requires this belief, and you are afraid of it being challenged. You base this idea out of fear, ignorance and a blatant prejudice. Not to mention blind faith.
So in conclusion, are you sure evolution requires more faith? Because , since evolution provable it really requires none. On the other hand where we have your ideas that require blind faith, prejudice, ignorance and fear. I think the winner is a no brainier... that is, of course if you choose to use your brain.
My post is taken from the very begining of the existance of matter not the process after the existance.
i guess ill choose to as you say "not use my brain", for i know that:
18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.
22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24 however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.