When They Are Saying "Peace and Security!"
Friday, April 15, 2011 at 11:23AM Print Article 
This article has been slightly expanded and moved from the front page
The apostle Paul is not generally thought of as a prophet, at least not like the Hebrew prophets that preceded him. Although his more than a dozen letters form the main part of the so-called New Testament, only a small portion of his work may be considered prophetic. That being said, much of Paul’s writing focuses on the coming of Christ and the parousia, so in that sense, the so-called Pauline letters are profoundly prophetic.
One fascinating facet of Paul’s prophesying is found at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5: “Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake you as it would thieves, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.” – New World Translation
There are a number of questions that arise from this intriguing prophecy. One, Who will be saying “peace and security”? Secondly, who is it that the “sudden destruction” comes upon? (The answer to the first question automatically supplies the answer to the second) Who brings about the destruction? Is it a visitation of divine disaster, or does it come from some other source? Also, when is this prophecy to be fulfilled? Does it come about as an immediate precursor to the final battle at Armageddon, as Jehovah’s Witnesses commonly believe? Or is there some other timeframe in which it will occur? Lastly, what is the significance of the phrase, “peace and security”?
Let’s consider the last question first.
The phrase “peace and security” does not appear in most English Bibles. The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible, for instance, renders 1 Thessalonians 5:3 thusly: “It is when people are saying, 'How quiet and peaceful it is' that sudden destruction falls on them, as suddenly as labour pains come on a pregnant woman; and there is no escape.”
The ever-popular King James and the New International Version (NIV) both use the expression “peace and safety.” However, both the lesser-known Holman Christian Standard Bible, as well as the English Standard Version, also phrase it “peace and security.”
The phraseology is significant in view of the fact that the exact phrase “peace and security” has become common political parlance. Consider the fact that “peace and security” is the primary political objective of the United Nations Organization. That organization’s very logo – the olive branches covering the earth – embodies the very concept of peace and security. Perhaps more significantly at this late stage of affairs, the American government’s official website touts its renewed commitment to work with the United Nations to bring about “peace and security.”
But the recent American peace and security initiative did not arise spontaneously. There are numerous foundations and NGOs that have been working behind the scene for many years actively promoting the policies now associated with America’s renewed drive for world peace. Consider, for example, 
there is an organization called The Peace and Security Funders Group, which is a collection of public and private foundations that presumably make grants to further their political objectives. Then there is The Peace and Security Initiative, which is a grouping of various NGOs working for global peace and security. There is Economists for Peace & Security, as well the Center for Peace and Security Studies at Georgetown University, in Washington D.C. NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has a website devoted to the Science for Peace and Security. There is even a Zionist’s Council for Peace and Security. Women have their own peace and security issues as well, reflected in the United Nations’ UNIFEM for peace and security; and associate NGOs called Working Group on Women, Peace and Security and WomenWarPeace.org.
How about the Compton Foundation for Peace and Security? If you are looking to invest your money in peace and security here is the Ploughshares investment group that does just that. Then there is the International Peace and Security Institute.
What is most striking is that the plethora of organizations that have been working for “peace and security” use the phrase exactly as it appears in the New World Translation. We never hear of the United Nations working towards “peace and safety,” as it is worded in the KJV and NIV. For that matter, whenever political leaders speak on the topic the wording is rarely even reversed to say “security and peace,” or some other variation. It is uncanny, but the precise expression “peace and security” seems to have become embedded within the political system itself.
For whatever it is worth, for that reason Jehovah’s Witnesses are in a better position to recognize the fulfillment of Paul’s prophecy when it does occur, whereas others who are under the influence of more popular Bible translations are not so advantaged.
Of course, the prophesied phrase may not have the same relevance and resonance in other languages, even in the NWT. But since English has become the accepted “universal” language, due in no small measure to the dominance of the Anglo-American world power, it is highly significant that the American president and the United Nations are increasingly talking about “peace and security.”
Obviously, though, the coming into existence in recent years of various organizations devoted to the peace and security of the world is not in itself the fulfillment of the prophecy, otherwise they would have already been visited with “sudden destruction.” Nor is the mere utterance of that phrase by prominent politicians – no matter how frequent – the fulfillment either. True, the apostle did prophesy, that, “Whenever it is that they are 'saying peace and security…” But, apparently, their “saying peace and security” is not the mere stating of their intentions to bring about such a condition, but rather, evidently, the realization of the prophecy will come about by their boasting about having actually accomplished some significant aspect of their ambitious agenda to make the world more peaceful and secure.
Now, consider the stated political aims of the American President, Barack Obama, as expressed in various outtakes of speeches in the video below, in which President Obama eloquently articulates his bold intentions to solve the myriad of problems disturbing the peace and security of the world; from melting icecaps, financial collapse, terrorism, poverty, pandemics, the Israeli-Palestinian situation and most of all – the unrelenting peril posed by nuclear weapons. (Click here for 10 minute YouTube version of the video below in case of slow streaming.)
Unlike the rhetoric of politicians who merely make empty promises, ostensibly Barak Obama is earnestly striving to accomplish his stated goals. For instance, shortly after taking office Obama declared that he would work to reduce nuclear weapons and keep them out of the hands of rogue states and terrorists. A small step was taken towards those ends with the recent signing of arms reduction treaty with Russia and the just concluded Nuclear Summit in Washington D.C. (Click here for relevant, up to the minute, news items on Google regarding "peace and security.")
It is also noteworthy that shortly after taking office Barack Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace prize. And although in his Oslo acceptance speech he did not use the exact phraseology of “peace and security,” in classic Orwellian, “war is peace” double-speak, Obama justified war, both past and future wars, as the means to maintain global security and peace.
On the Anglo side of the British and American alliance, Tony Blair, who is arguably the man most responsible for crafting the conquest of Iraq, is now a special “peace envoy” to the Middle East. As an appointed envoy for securing the peace and security of the Middle East, Blair has recently stated before the pro-Israel lobby that the world will “do whatever it takes” to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Presumably, that means launching war is a viable option – even war with tactical nuclear weapons. And it is no secret that the build-up to such an operation has been ongoing for many years and must be in the final stages at this late date.
Such an attack, while devastating to the targeted nation, would inevitably have a catastrophic “blow-back” effect as well – potentially triggering World War Three. (You Tube) It is the intention of the London-based financier oligarchy, loosely grouped around the British Crown, to use such a war to prevent substantive cooperation between the USA and Russia (YouTube) and to create chaos throughout the world in order to bring down America and the entire nation-state system and ultimately reduce the world’s population by a significant percentage.
At this stage of affairs, then, it appears as if the “they” who are destined by prophecy to be “saying peace and security” is the entire United Nations nexus of nations, led by the Anglo-American kingdom. The destruction that is to instantly come upon them is of their own making. It will be manifested in the collapse of the governmental and financial system of things.
The 13th chapter of Revelation portrays that event by symbolizing a seven-headed wild beast that receives a mortal head wound to one of its heads. The seventh head of the wild beast must surely symbolize the Anglo-American dual world power. How may it be determined that their “saying peace and security” is not an immediate precursor to the destruction God will bring on Armageddon?
Consider, now, the context in which Paul wrote his prophecy. In verses 13 through 18 Paul discusses the resurrection that is to occur during the presence (parousia) of Christ. Logically, Paul was pointing forward to the future coming of Jesus. So, it is in that setting that Paul foretold that the coming of Christ would be as unexpected as a thief in the night. In order to help Christians determine when Christ stealth-like parousia would commence the apostle foretold “whenever it is that they are saying peace and security.” That is the signal.
Elsewhere in the Scriptures it is recorded that Jesus Christ described his coming as a thief in the night to judge his household of slaves. Specifically, at Luke 12:35-40 Jesus stated the following: “Let your loins be girded and your lamps be burning, and you yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to you, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they! But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”
The context of Jesus’ illustration indicates that his coming as a thief in the night is to reward his faithful slave and punish the evil slaves. So it is, the destruction that is destined to come upon those “saying peace and security” will be brought on by the war, famine and pestilence Jesus said would mark the commencement of his presence. Jesus will evidently use the hardships of that bleak period as the means to winnow out the faithless and evil slaves from his household and to discipline and refine those judged to be faithful.
Similarly, Jesus warned the somnolent Christians in the symbolic Sardis congregation that he was coming as a thief, saying to them at Revelation 3:2-3: “Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God. Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping it, and repent. Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you.”
Surely Jesus is not coming as a thief on multiple occasions. That being the case, the question for Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Watchtower leadership to consider is this: If Jesus judged his Father’s spiritual house in 1918, why was there no declaration of “peace and security” back then? Instead of directing people to consider the events of a bygone era, why isn't the Watchtower taking any note of the present developments? Is it because her watchmen have become like slumbering watchdogs that are unable to bark? (See Isaiah 57:10) No wonder Jehovah’s inspired word exhorts all the faithful to stay awake in anticipation of the Day.
Still, while no one knows the day or hour for Jesus to make his surprise visit to initiate the judgment of the world, the Apostle, Paul, was inspired to provide the sons of light with a vital marker to indicate the nearness of that day. All indications are that the day of Jehovah is about to erupt upon the world.
So, while political leaders have been talking and talking, and talking still more, about the global issues related to peace and security, we say to them: ‘Keep on talking.’
_________________________
The recent upheaval throughout the Middle East seems to have conspicuously by-passed Palestine and Israel. Some observers believe the pressure to make an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement is increasing, especially since the UN has mandated that Palestine will be recognized as an independent state in September, 2011. Too, given the place Israel occupies in Evangelical endtimes prophecy, it seems likely that the "peace and security" trigger for sudden destruction may well center around some sort of declaration of peace and security in the Middle East.
Reader Comments (19)
Please, may the will of the Ancient of Days, the Sovereign GOD Jehovah, take place on the Earth as it most surely does in Heaven.
Amen
Thanks for good article !
What a grasp of world events Jehovah has blessed you with Robert!
And now you’re doing your JOB by sharing!
Many thanks to the God of tender mercys.
I can hear the mighty ones doing their boasting now . Probably saying something like... never before in human history has the world enjoyed this prospect that we have accomplished true peace and security for everyone for all time , although it has been tried numerous times , it is my legacy. This will be a boast even a challlenge that will be short lived! the words be proved true , it does not belong to man even to direct his step. " Please, may the will of the Ancient of Days, the Sovereign GOD Jehovah, take place on the Earth as it most surely does in Heaven"
Amen
and may we please prove ourselves to be ready! In Jesus Name! Amen
Watchman,
if I read you correctly, you are saying that at the cry of 'peace and security,' the sudden destruction that is to be instantly upon the nations will be a self-inflicted collapse of the governmental and financial system of things, the sword stroke of one of the heads of the wild beast of Rev.13, to be followed by the rise of the global dictatorship of the beast, which you then also link to the start of Christ's parousia.
There are however, several things that do not add up scripturally with your sequence of events. You correctly identify that the cry of 'peace and security' occurs at the return of Christ, his parousia.
But since parousia means 'coming and subsequent presence,' and there is only one future coming, which happens immediately AFTER the great tribulation is finished, when he COMES with the last trumpet to gather his chosen ones together, both dead and living, to be henceforth present WITH HIM in glorious immortal spirit bodies in the heavens, there is then actually only the battle of Armageddon left to take place.
No time for a healing of the death-stroke and authority being given over all the nations and peoples of the earth for 3.5 years, no persecution of the holy ones possible, since they have already been glorified at that point in time.
Therefore the cry of peace and security and the sudden destruction of the nations, who by then are under the authority of the global fascist beast, occurs at the start of Armageddon and immediately AFTER the end of the great tribulation. This instant destruction will be the dashing of the nations to pieces with an iron rod by Jesus and his glorified bothers numbering a complete 144000.
But we are nowhere near the REAL cry of 'peace and security,' not even near the precursory great tribulation at this point in time. Your idea that, quote, "All indications are that the day of Jehovah is about to erupt upon the world," is several steps ahead of its proper place in the sequence of prophesied events.
First we would need some sort of semblance of a beast that has authority over ALL the nations. I know Amnerika and some of its flag wavers fancy themselves to be in just such a position. But the patriotism of those who finance said delusion is historically and intrinsically questionable at the best of times.
Then we would have to experience one head of such a global terror regime to suffer a fatal though only temporary setback before even the great tribulation could possibly start. There are so many things to happen yet, for which the required conditions are nowhere nearly in place, that we can be certain that Satan will instigate yet further pre-emptive fake prophetic fulfilments of real things yet to come, so as to mislead IF POSSIBLE even the chosen ones again.
It is thus clear, by the way, that those who were mislead by Satan's last ruse, the fake 1914 parousia, along with all its contemporary devotees, could by definition not have been of the chosen ones, otherwise they would not have been misled by the 'invisible parousia before his coming lie,' since what Jesus said implies that the REAL chosen ones would NOT BE MISLED by Satan's pre-emptive parousia deception.
By the way, upon his arriving, Jesus will reward the faithful slaves with instantaneous immortalization on glorious thrones in unapproachable heavenly glory, where he will 'minister' to them with the 'product of the vine' in the fulfilment of the kingdom of his Father.
Why should he upon his return merely 'appear' to them, leaving them to continue on in the flesh for years after? Is that the hope that Paul was looking forward to? I thought all Christian's were "earnestly waiting for...the release from [their earthly] bodies by ransom," quite in contrast to some today who are merely looking forward to some apparition of Christ to boost their faith.
Paul describes that from his anointing onward "it is no longer I who live, but Christ in me!" If therefore Christ already lives in you, what purpose would he serve appearing to you personally at some future time during your sojourn in the flesh? Personally, I would be worried by any 'christ' appearing to me while in the flesh. When the real Christ appears, he will in the twinkling of an eye 'harpatzo,' 'catch away,' or 'rapture' those who are his chosen ones. Surely, no one can blink his eyes for three and a half years - not even Jesus - without raising an eyebrow in the reader of Pauls inspired words!
Proxygnosis
I have stated before that I prefer not to use the comments feature to engage in long discussions. However, you raise some interesting points. I would like to consider them in the next watchman podcast.
Thanks for your thoughts
fact of the matter i see some idolatry toward watchman and most of you all are disfellowshipped or disasociated.And you have a chip against jehovah`s imperfect but spirit directed organization.I am observing world events and everything is coming together and the watchtower is during a excellent job warning and informing of the coming day of jehovah.I read watchman posts for amusement mostly, he makes some decent points sometimes but his interpetations really dont make sense compared to the society view points on world events.I hope u all wake up and come back into the truth before the day of destruction occurs and u get swept up because you rather listen to a apostate and hope for the fall of jehovahs people which will not happen.
Servant of Jehovah, -?
Please allow me to address your trolling comments and lack of demeanor. I will speak to you at your level so as not to confuse you. I and many others do feel that you are just trying to cause trouble and many won't dignify you or your post with a response. So I will take pity on you and do so myself. But I will guard my displeasure to protect your very life force.
Excuse YOU! Why would you be on this website to begin with? Do I smell a human hypocrite? First of all, NOBODY is idolizing Robert or this website. Now, some humans do stupid things as such and they suffer the consequences. To say such a thing sparks of jealousy and covetousness. I can see a little of both inside you.
Most people that come here are curious and/OR looking for the truth and ANSWERS since the various Kingdom Halls and human leadership for such are lacking and not meeting the needs of the many honest JWs and others. The love which so many JWs are fond of talking about and pushing on others, is absent among many. Now I wonder why you portray that don't know this?
Always capitalize my Father's name. That is Jehovah. With a capital J not a small j. Now why would you not know that? Seriously, you are way out of your league here.
Have a nice evening. When you dream, you will see me and KNOW.
A Custodian
World leaders are paranoid. They do not know how to achieve peace and security. This empty talk will soon end when God releases the four winds of the tribulation. How can the nations achieve peace when they are preparing for war? At what cost are they going to achieve peace? Likely they will be embroiled in a third world war, creating mass confusion and panic. Under this scenario people the world over will be crying out for "peace and security." Then sudden destruction will come upon the world as divine retribution for our gross lack of wisdom and common sense.
Custodian
I certainly don’t want to further any negative vein of thought. But I can’t resist on stating (nice catch with the non Capital J) though the ‘see you in your dreams’ statement even creepers me out. Ouch!
Look at it this way (servant of )(jehovah) by just being here has began to peal the onion, where it leads him or her who can say?
It has taken me two years just to not be afraid of really thinking for my self and not condemn my self, it’s like I can independently breathe for the first time but at the same time reconcile many of the truths I learned from yes- The Watchtower Pages!
Brian
Isaiah 59:8 (NWT)
The way of peace they have ignored, and there is no justice in their tracks. Their roadways they have made crooked for themselves. No one at all treading in them will actually know peace.
********** When They Are Saying "Peace and Security!" ********************
where is to happen/take place this event ? in the world , or within God's people ?
Jesus brought something new (from His and ours Father ) : the knowledge of the Father's purpose and will :
to HAVE worshippers "with spirit and with truth"
a worshipper "with spirit" is that one who observe strictly the will of the Father in each action , because the Father is the Spirit
Father has commanded us to obey His Son :"This is my beloved Son, Listen to Him !"
And the Son said : "Your word is TRUTH "
Jesus knew Father's clearly expressed "will" regarding the time and the frame of "end-time prophecies" ,
as it were declared to Daniel ( cpt 10 )
14. "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen
-- to your people
-- in the latter days,
for the vision pertains to the days yet future."
So, it is very clear , Jesus conformed Himself to Father's will , and everything he preached from old prophecies , He put it in relations with "God's people" !
His apostles followed Him in this way , because this means to "abidel" or to "remain" in the Teaching of Christ !
The only way to HAVE BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON !
2 John
9. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
WHEN apostle Paul wrote the inspired words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 , he surely knew Father's will toward Jesus' followers , and acted accordingly !
SO , the cry "Peace and security" MUST HAVE ITS FULFILMENT >>within<< God's people , at the end of the "latter days"
WHO are THEY who cry "peace and security" ?
They are some who " had been of us ... but they were not really of us" !
1 John 2
19. They went out from us, but they were not really of us;
for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us;
but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Who are "of us" the apostle John is speaking about here ?
.."of us" are the anointed brothers of Christ , the co-followers with apostle John , who all where "abiding" in the Teaching of Christ !
... and those who "were not really of us" are those called "weeds" , workers of LAWLESSNESS , who "will secretly introduce destructive heresies" ...
2 Peter 2
1. But false prophets also arose among the people (of God ), just as there will also be false teachers among you,
who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them,
bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
SO , these ones who " had been of us ... but they were not really of us" CONSTITUTES themselves in the group called "FALSE PROPHET"
LET us find what was prophecised regarding these "false prophets"
Jeremiah 23
16. Thus says the LORD of hosts,
"Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the LORD.
17. "They keep saying to those who despise Me,
'The LORD has said, "YOU WILL HAVE PEACE "';
And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
They say, 'Calamity will not come upon you.' [YOU WILL HAVE SECURITY]
DO we understand now WHAT the cry "peace and security" IS ?
This CRY come from these prophets JEHOVAH DID NOT SENT THEM !
They are (TODAY) desperately TRYING TO ASSURE >>those believing THE LIE<< (despising Jehovah / walking in the stubbornness of his own heart ) THAT THEY WILL HAVE PEACE AND SECURITY if they will continue to follow the FALSE PROPHETS who set themselves as "god" in God's Temple !
BUT SUDDEN DESTRUCTION IS TO BE INSTANTLY UPON THEM !
.....................
rus virgil
click on my name for referrence
YOU GUYS NEED TO PICK UP YOUR OWN PERSONAL COPY OF THE REVELATION BOOK ITS GRAND CLIMAX AT HAND,,PUBLISHERS WATCHTOWER BIBLE TRACT SOCIETY OF PENSYLVANIA...IF U WANT ME TO SEND ONE FREE CONTACT MY EMAIL,,,,,,EXTERIORS@LIVE.CA
Obamas nobel prize announced 09/09/09 1260 days to the day from march 22 2013 which is the mid point of the tribulation according to Dewey Bruten Daniel time line released in 2005.
http://kingdomstudies.blogspot.com/2009/04/dewey-brutons-timeline.html
so only Jehovah's Winesses will be saved? or other church goes too?
TO: Dev
Please do some catching up, on the e-watchmans blogs, & forums for comments,,,,you will find your answers
with ample extra information you didnt think you'd EVER hear or know about.....the WTB&TS so-called F&DSlave
have committed a bigger DECEPTION than any other religion on earth,,,,,,,their "child abuse Policies" alone
would render them APOSTATE....so tune in and be prepared for a "roller coaster ride" to the path that leads
to LIFE :::::::: you are at the "crossroads" NOW be sure to make the right decision, won't you ..??..
TO:: Dark KNIGHT
We have studied the WT "Revelation climax book" X 3 times.....personally found the book very helpful, in 1988
remember the day at the Dist. convention when it was announced, & received with much anticipation & spiritual
excitement......due to my personal hardship at the time,,,,felt "resurrected" out of the "valley of the shadow of
death" Psalm 23..
However, 20 years later was awakened from the WT coma, & got off the treadmill, almost , apart from the
irregular Sunday meetings, where the "mind control" repetitious drip drip drip, about the Gov Body/ Faithful & Discreet Slave
"DO YOU GET IT >> ?? << etc oh ! BTW did y'all know that MIND CONTROL =====Witchcraft ... ??
Since you have a heavenly calling, who's feeding you your food at the proper time? Jesus is head of the faith full slave class. All the knowledge that has been revealed to you is straight from your heavenly family through the holy spirit. Your not officially part of faith full slave class until you have proven yourself faith full till the death; just like Jesus and the apostles in the bible did. It seems a great portion the faith full anointed slave have been in heaven for some time, millions have responded to the good news of Jehovah's kingdom. Angel in mid heaven declaring the good news,Jesus. Perhaps war in heaven hasn't happen as it may seem to some. When the dragon see's that it has been cast to earth it's WAR against all that have a heavenly calling on earth; they will the objective targets of the dragon. Of course there will be civilian casualties, great crowd. You will be persecuted and put to death. It seems that those with a heavenly calling that lived their lives mostly in America have had it a lot easier than Jesus and the first century brothers and sisters. This puzzels, not stumbles me. A slave is not greater than his master! Most of apostles in the bible were martyr for the witness to Jesus. I guess Jehovah's spirit protects a lot better in America.
The word in Greek for peace is Eirini, it is from the root verb Eiro which means to join together. Place the two wrds together "peace and security" «Ειρήνη και ασφάλεια!» It translates as "to come together to solve a crisis(worldwide) in order to make the system fast". Much the same way the entire ships crew when facing a storm, will set aside there differences for there common good, in order to make the ship fast or secure? The world leaders are claiming they have " rescued the economic system, and it is now secure or fast? As the reality of the depth of the crisis becomes plain, the governments, as Mr Mubarak did, will be "talking" peace and stability right up to the complete collapse of the economic system. The attack on false religion, reading Revelation 18, seems to suggest it is for financial reasons, the government attempts to make austerity cuts will fail as they did in the 1930s, turning a recession into a great depression. When there are no more ways to "create" solutions for there economic needs, they will start to starve, and turn on the harlot?