Jehovah's Witnesses and the Holy Place
Thursday, May 27, 2010 at 2:52PM Print Article 
"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place…then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." —Matthew 24:21
(Edited repost of an article from August 2006)
What is the great tribulation and what is the holy place that is destined for desolation? Does the holy place symbolize Christendom, as Jehovah’s Witnesses believe?
Although Jesus indicated that the desolation of Jerusalem in the 1st century would result in a great tribulation unlike any before, he also went on to say that the tribulation will be a time of unprecedented distress upon all the nations of the earth (not just Jerusalem), of such severity that the continued existence of humanity will hang in the balance. The great tribulation will necessitate divine intervention in order to save mankind from extinction.
Because the great tribulation is destined to come upon the entire inhabited earth during Christ’s presence, terrorizing the peoples of the world to the extent of their becoming faint with fright, it obviously involves much more than merely the legislated banning of organized religion. The great tribulation evidently encompasses the globe-rocking collapse of the entire system, including that which was typified by Jerusalem and its holy temple in the first century.
In brief: The great tribulation is to be immediately preceded by global war, food shortages, pandemics, and earthquakes in various places and a massive falling away of Christians, as well as persecutions and martyrdom for the faithful. Then, after the beginning pangs of distress have served as a signal that the parousia has begun, Jesus said a “disgusting thing” would violate and desolate God’s holy place, which Christ described as a great tribulation that would require Christians to take decisive action.
Immediately after the beginning of the tribulation, the symbolic heavenly luminaries go on the wane – signifying the terrifying crash of the present system of things. Then, during mankind’s darkest hour, the sign of Christ will miraculously manifest itself from heaven and the final ingathering of Jehovah’s chosen ones from the four corners of the earth, where they will have been scattered by the tribulation, will be accomplished.
Although the tribulation upon the holy place is for the purpose of “meting out justice” (according to Luke’s version), Christ’s faithful followers will also be directly impacted, as they were in the 1st century, which is why Jesus went on to say: “Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation…”
In view of the fact that Christians would be required to make a crucial life-or-death decision shortly after the disgusting thing begins “standing where it ought not,” Jesus advised his followers to consult the prophecy of Daniel for additional insight into developments that are destined to occur, saying: “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.”
What feature of Daniel’s prophecy did Jesus have in mind? No doubt Christ intended 1st century readers to discern that the 9th chapter of Daniel (the original scrolls were not divided into chapter and verse) had relevance for them. It states: “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate."
However, what might Jesus have intended readers to discern from Daniel’s prophecy who would be on hand for the “conclusion of the system of thing,” otherwise known as “the time of the end”? Are we merely to discern from reading Daniel that the Roman armies were the foretold “disgusting thing” when they planted their idolatrous ensigns in Herod’s temple? Of what value would that knowledge be for Christ's disciples living during the conclusion?
No doubt Jesus was familiar with the scroll of Daniel, which says: "And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.” – Daniel 11:31-32
The sanctuary, fortress and the constant feature, mentioned above, have reference to that which belongs to God – being the central feature of the worship of Jehovah. In other words, the sanctuary and fortress are a holy place to God. The constant feature has to do with the regular sacrifices of praise offered to God in his sanctuary. This is collaborated by Daniel 8:13, which refers to the king of fierce countenance “causing desolation” to the "holy place" and removing the "constant feature." Daniel 8:13 reads: “How long will the vision be of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?”
The 8th chapter of Daniel also connects the holy place, the sanctuary and the constant feature with the “Prince of the army,” who is Christ. So, the "putting in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation" is in reference to the sanctuary of Jehovah, of which Christ is both the cornerstone and High priest. Given the similar content and wording of the prophecies of Daniel it should be evident to the discerning reader that the holy place that is destined to come to desolation and be trampled underfoot by the nations for an appointed time is the earthly domain of the holy ones – Christ’s true congregation. It most certainly is not Christendom or Babylon the Great.
Few of Jehovah’s Witnesses realize just how convoluted the Society’s prophetic interpretations are. For example, the Watchtower teaches that the king of the north profaned the sanctuary and removed the constant feature when Adolf Hitler and the Fascists persecuted Jehovah’s Witnesses. Contradictorily, the Watchtower also teaches that the king of fierce countenance profaned the sanctuary and removed the constant feature when the Anglo-American king persecuted Jehovah’s Witnesses during the Second World War. Furthermore, the 12th chapter of Daniel also refers to the putting in place of the disgusting thing and the removal of the constant feature, which the Society applies to 1918 and the creation of the League of Nations.
Incredibly, three prophecies that essentially foretell the exact same thing are interpreted by the Watchtower Society to have been fulfilled in three different ways – all in the past! And yet, in spite of applying the prophecies of Daniel regarding the holy place to the persecutions of the International Bible Students and Jehovah’s Witnesses, albeit in three different ways, the Watchtower steadfastly insists that the holy place Jesus referred to, which is destined to be desolated by the disgusting thing of Daniel’s prophecy, represents Christendom! Incredible! No wonder Jesus advised the reader to use discernment. Could the Watchtower be any less discerning in these vital matters?
Obviously, the Watchtower Society and Jehovah’s Witnesses do not have a clear understanding of what the holy place of Christ’s prophecy represents. That is evident in other ways too. For example, for decades the Watchtower Society taught that the disgusting thing first began standing in God’s holy place back in 1920. That is when the League of Nations was formed. Then, when the League dissolved at the outbreak of the Second World War and the United Nations came on the scene afterwards, the Watchtower continued to sound the trumpet alarm that the UN was “standing where it ought not.” But how did those two political agencies come to stand in the holy place of God? Jehovah’s Witnesses thought that simply because the clergy generally accepted the League and the UN, and some clerics apparently even viewed them as earthly extensions of God’s kingdom, for that reason Christendom somehow invited the political disgusting thing to stand in the place of God’s kingdom. So, in reality the Watchtower held two definitions of what the holy place represented. On the one hand they once taught that God’s kingdom was the holy place and that somehow the League and the UN had subverted God’s kingdom by standing in the holy place posing as counterfeits. On the other hand, the Watchtower still teaches that Christendom itself is the holy place because they merely claim to represent God. And for many years the Watchtower Society urged people to flee out of the doomed “holy place” by becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Then, in 1999, “new light” suddenly flashed up, as Jehovah’s Witnesses are fond of saying, and the Watchtower unceremoniously jettisoned the notion that the League of Nations and its successor, the UN, were ever standing in the prophetic holy place. Here is what the May 1st issue stated:
“Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the “standing in a holy place” still ahead of us? Evidently so. While “the disgusting thing” made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future. As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the “standing in a holy place” would develop, so do present-day Christians. Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details.”
In a couple of sentences the Watchtower, knowingly or unknowingly, negated a considerable portion of its own teachings on this topic. For instance, even though the Society now no longer teaches that the League of Nations once stood in the prophetic holy place, it nevertheless has not rejected the blasphemous and nonsensical notion that God has already adversely judged Christendom and all people who may not have accepted or even been aware of the Watchtower’s proclamations against the League back in the 1920s.
The Grand Climax book states that God began pouring out the last plagues in 1922 upon those who supposedly received the mark of the beast, which resulted in apparent everlasting condemnation for the masses of humanity who may not have accepted the Watchtower’s teaching regarding 1914 and the League being a counterfeit of the supposed newly established kingdom of God. This in spite of the fact that the same May 1st, 1999, issue of the Watchtower also published “new light” regarding the separation of the sheep and the goats. Even though the Watchtower has not repudiated the 1914 doctrine or corrected the absurd notion that judgment day began in 1922, Jehovah’s Witnesses now believe that Jesus has not yet sat down upon his throne to judge the sheep and the goats, in fulfillment of Christ’s illustration in the 25th chapter of Matthew.
So, the Watchtower Society holds two totally contradictory teachings. One: that the world has already been adversely judged because of rejecting the Watchtower’s 1914 doctrine, and consequently the peoples of the world have already received the mark of the beast. At the same time, the Society teaches that Christ has not yet sat down upon his throne to judge mankind. The Society’s prophetic teachings are nothing if not a hodge-podge of contradictions.
While the Watchtower Society has finally corrected their decades-old errors regarding when it is that Jesus separates the sheep and the goats and when the disgusting thing begins standing in the holy place, they, nonetheless, continue to labor under the falsehood that Christendom is the holy place. This continued error has resulted in a rather muddled understanding of what Christians are supposed to do when the disgusting thing actually does enter into the holy place.
The most logical question to ask is if Christendom is the holy place why would true Christians have to flee out of her when the disgusting thing comes to mete out justice? The Watchtower article under discussion here has no answer, except to say:
“We cannot presently have full details about the great tribulation, but we can logically conclude that for us the flight Jesus spoke of will not be in a geographic sense. God’s people are already around the globe, virtually in every corner. We can be sure, though, that when flight is necessary, Christians will have to continue to maintain a clear distinction between themselves and false religious organizations.”
Furthermore, if Christendom is the antitypical holy place, why did Jesus say that the disgusting thing would be “standing where it ought not”? Again, the Watchtower has no answer. Indeed, as the Watchtower is quick to point out, most of Christendom has supported the United Nations since its inception. The United Nations, too, has embraced the religions of the world; inviting them to cooperate as NGOs and even promoting its own brand of religion in the form of New Age spiritualism. According to the symbolism of Revelation, though, the religious harlot rides the political beast up until the moment the beast turns upon her and devours her. How, then, is it possible for the beast to stand where it ought not?
Unfortunately for Jehovah’s Witnesses, there are many more contradictions and incongruities in Bethel’s interpretations. Perhaps the most blatant example of interpretive chicanery, certainly the most far-reaching, is the way the Society misapplies the appointed times of the nations, the so-called Gentile times, which Jesus referred to as being a central feature of the conclusion of the system of things.
In the context of explaining the things that were destined to befall Jerusalem, Jesus said: “Furthermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” –(Luke 21:20-24)
Please note that Jesus mentioned Jerusalem twice in the span of verses above. Jerusalem was first to be “surrounded by encamped armies,” and then she was to “be trampled on by the nations” for a preset length of time. Mind-bogglingly, the Watchtower Society has conjured a total of four different meanings for “Jerusalem.”
Jerusalem was, of course, surrounded by the Roman armies in 66 C.E. – that is one. As already noted, the antitypical Jerusalem that is destined to be menaced by a modern disgusting thing is supposedly Christendom – that is two. However, the Watchtower Society teaches that the Jerusalem that will be trampled on for an appointed time first began to be trampled on long before it was even surrounded by encamped armies. Yes, according to the Society’s sophistry, the Jerusalem Jesus was really talking about initially began to be trampled upon by the Chaldeans way back in 607 B.C.E. – that is three. But, alas, the antitypical Jerusalem that emerges at the end of the appointed times is God’s heavenly kingdom – that is four.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are seemingly undeterred by the fact that the fourth chapter of Daniel makes no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in connection with the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness. Nor does it specify that those seven times were the beginning of an appointed time for the nations to trample God’s holy city. Furthermore, there is no mention of the “time of the end” in the fourth chapter of Daniel. The Watchtower merely supposes that the fourth chapter of Daniel relates to the appointed times Jesus foretold.
In view of the numerous contradictions and the disharmonious way the prophecies have been stitched together, it is evident that the Society’s interpretations are wholly artificial. Contrary to what we read in the 2nd letter of Peter regarding “no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation,” it is painfully obvious that the Watchtower’s torturous teachings are the result of a “private interpretation” of the Scriptures, intended to glorify the Watchtower Society and conceal God’s judgments. If that were not the case then Bethel’s interpretations would harmonize with the Scriptures. But the simple fact is they do not. The only legitimate method of interpretation is to allow the prophecies to interpret themselves. Any other presentation springs from a “private interpretation.”
So, when it comes to the question of what the holy city is that is destined to be laid desolate for an appointed time it is important to avoid reading into the prophecy things that simply are not there – contrary to what the Watchtower has done. To illustrate, the Society reasons that Jerusalem has to prefigure Christendom because Jerusalem was rejected by Jehovah. Hence, Jerusalem could not possibly represent that which is connected to Christ’s congregation. But is that reasoning sound? Moreover, is it in harmony with the Scriptures?
It is ironical that a footnote in the May 1st article admits that not all aspects of the 1st century fulfillment of the prophecy find a parallel in the grander fulfillment. The footnote reads:
“It should be noted that while the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in 66-70 C.E. can help us to understand how they will be fulfilled at the great tribulation, the two fulfillments cannot be exactly parallel because the fulfillments occur against different backdrops.”
In spite of that disclaimer Bethel insists that the 1st century pattern is the sole basis for understanding what the holy place represents. That is simply wrong. As already stated, the interrelationship between the prophecies themselves is the basis for determining the correct interpretation. To demonstrate the principle, more than 20 years after the holy city of Jerusalem and Jehovah’s temple had been destroyed by the Romans, the apostle John received the Apocalypse, or Revelation. The 11th chapter foretells of another holy city of God that is destined to be trampled on by the nations for an appointed time of 42 months. Obviously, the holy city in Revelation is not the literal city of Jerusalem since it no longer even existed when Revelation was written. And yet we find the exact same phraseology Christ used in foretelling that the nations would trample on Jerusalem for a specified period of time. Furthermore, it is evident that the holy city mentioned in Revelation cannot represent Christendom, since God’s two prophets apparently dress in sackcloth to mourn the loss of the earthly aspect of God’s heavenly city.
If the prophecies are allowed to interpret themselves, then it is necessary for any would-be-interpreter of the Scriptures to recognize that the 11th chapter of Revelation relates to the prophecy of Christ that says: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” Since the connection is obvious, it is also apparent that the “appointed times” equal 42 months. Combined with the related prophecies of Daniel regarding the time, times and half a time the holy ones are to be trampled on during the time of the end, it is apparent that the “appointed times” of Christ’s prophecy relate to the length of the tribulation, during which time God’s people are dominated by the nations. (Interestingly, it was roughly 42 months from the time the Roman armies first encamped against Jerusalem until the city was destroyed.)
Surely, in view of all of the above, it is evident why Jesus urged his people to use discernment. We can also better appreciate why Jesus indicated that Christians would be required to flee out of the holy city when the disgusting thing manifests itself in the holy place. Since it has been clearly established that the holy place pertains to the congregation of Christ – an organization that cannot be destroyed – that which is due to be destroyed must relate to the earthly organization used by the holy ones; namely, the institution of the Watchtower Society. It is that so-called “visible organization” which must be brought low during the world’s great tribulation.
God’s prophets foretell that Jehovah’s “highly elated” city-like organization today is due to come to complete desolation. Like Ophel (ancient Jerusalem) the Watchtower organization of today will be abandoned entirely; to be replaced by a truly spirit-directed organization of worshippers who will then be ushered into spiritual paradise. That is what the 32nd chapter of Isaiah foretells for God’s people: “Upon the ground of my people merely thorns, spiny bushes come up, for they are upon all the houses of exultation, yes, the highly elated town. For the dwelling tower itself has been forsaken, the very hubbub of the city has been abandoned; Ophel and the watchtower themselves have become bare fields, for time indefinite the exultation of zebras, the pasture of droves; until upon us the spirit is poured out from on high, and the wilderness will have become an orchard, and the orchard itself is accounted as a real forest.”
We should not suppose that the prophecy above has anything to do with the desolation of ancient Jerusalem. Even though the imagery is that of a primitive setting of “spiny bushes” and “bare fields,” the desolate condition is actually brought about by the coming of Christ. That is apparent by context of the 32nd chapter of Isaiah, the 1st verse of which states: “Look! A king will reign for righteousness itself; and as respects princes, they will rule as princes for justice itself. And each one must prove to be like a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm, like streams of water in a waterless country, like the shadow of a heavy crag in an exhausted land.”
The king, of course, is none other than Jesus Christ. And the princes associated with his rule are the 144,000 chosen ones. (Those anointed individuals who have already died will be resurrected during the tribulation so as to be with Christ during the conclusion of the system, so will not be subjected to the profanation of the princes of the holy place.) So it is that the kingdom will provide a secret place of spiritual security for the faithful during the time of international distress – when the earthly organization is laid low. Or as the 18th verse says it: “And my people must dwell in a peaceful abiding place and in residences of full confidence and in undisturbed resting-places. And it will certainly hail when the forest goes down and the city becomes low in an abased state.”
Elsewhere in Isaiah it is stated even more clearly. The holy place due to be destroyed is inhabited by those whom Jehovah declares to be his witnesses – making them Jehovah’s witnesses. That is apparent from the 43rd chapter of Isaiah, the very chapter from where the formal designation of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” has been derived. There, Jehovah rebukes his erring servant nation, Jacob, and at the same time he also reassures Jacob that he will be repurchased and redeemed, (the tribulation will be cut short on account of the chosen ones) but only after he has paid the penalty for his transgressions. The last verse of the 43rd chapter of Isaiah foretells that those who serve as witnesses of Jehovah in his holy place are going to be severely disciplined by being subjected to destruction and ridicule. That verse reads: “I—I am the One that is wiping out your transgressions for my own sake, and your sins I shall not remember. Remind me; let us put ourselves on judgment together; tell your own account of it in order that you may be in the right. Your own father, the first one, has sinned, and your own spokesmen have transgressed against me. So I shall profane the princes of the holy place, and I will give Jacob over as a man devoted to destruction and Israel over to words of abuse.”
(Even the Watchtower is not so blind and unreasonable so as to assert that the prophecy was fulfilled in 1918 or that it applies to Christendom. Telling too, the Society’s latest commentary on Isaiah makes no modern application of the above verse.)
Jehovah’s invitation to “put ourselves on judgment together” is simply another way of describing judgment day. Since Jehovah puts himself on judgment with his servant organization, the judgments contained in the 43rd chapter of Isaiah must parallel the judgment of God’s household of slaves at the coming of Christ. That means that the holy place that is destined to be violated by the disgusting thing is actually the holy place of God and not something that merely claims to be holy – as the Watchtower asserts. It is holy because it is inhabited by those who are the anointed holy ones, or “the princes of the holy place,” as Isaiah words it. It is holy, too, because Jehovah has placed his own holy name upon his servants.
Since it is an established scriptural truth that the judgment begins with the house of God, the hardships and tests of 1918 and World War Two notwithstanding, there is no reason to believe that the true house of God has ever been “devoted to destruction.” It is, therefore, evident that the profanation of the “princes of the holy place,” and the handing over of God’s spiritual nation as one “devoted to destruction,” takes place at the beginning of judgment day – that is to say, at the beginning of the great tribulation. That is when the Watchtower Society and her anointed princes are certain to be desolated by the disgusting thing.
Reader Comments (28)
Your good Robert......Good, clean information! Thanks!
Many thanks for good and interesting article !
Watchman,
You state that, QUOTE: "[Jesus] also went on to say that the tribulation will be a time of unprecedented distress upon all the nations of the earth (not just Jerusalem), of such severity that the continued existence of humanity will hang in the balance. The great tribulation will necessitate divine intervention in order to save mankind from extinction." UNQUOTE
Just WHERE does Jesus say or imply that the great tribulation will be upon 'all the nations' and so severe as to threaten the survival of humanity? Jesus says NO SUCH THING about the tribulation! The nations' 'becoming faint out of fear' does NOT happen DURING, but IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation is FINISHED! (Lu.21:25-28 = Mat.24:29-31!)
The tribulation is CAUSED by the nations and directed AGAINST Christianity and those holding fast to their belief in Christ, as Jesus himself said: "You will be objects of hatred by ALL THE NATIONS on account of MY NAME!"
Paul confirms this scenario in 2Thes.1:6, where "it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to THOSE WHO MAKE TRIBULATION for you, [during the 'great tribulation'] but, to YOU WHO SUFFER TRIBULATION, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven," 'immediately after' the tribulation is finished." Paul's statement would make no sense IF the WHOLE WORLD were to suffer during the great tribulation.
The great tribulation is ONLY ON THOSE professing Christ, while ALL THE NATIONS, who are CAUSING this persecution are living carefree and easy, or as Daniel puts it, "during freedom from care, even into the fatness of the jurisdictional district," when many 'Christians' will be brought to their ruin. (Da 8:25)
At this point, the vast majority of Christendom, including JWs, will be deceived into accepting the 'incoming kingdom' and its 'Christ' as the real deal and receive the mark of the beast, which will enable them to BUY AND SELL, joining the miraculously successful and prosperous global NWO.
So we must expect a tribulation or persecution against Christianity, which is "a holy place," UNTIL the start of Christ's parousia, his COMING on the clouds with power and glory, to set off Armageddon. The great tribulation is a PERSECUTION of a MINORITY - Armageddon is the DESTRUCTION of the MAJORITY.
The 'cutting short' of the tribulation is to enable CHRISTIANS to survive IN THE FLESH to see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven to collect the chosen ones from EARTH'S extremity to heaven's extremity! It is genuine Christians that are in danger of becoming extinct, not MANKIND as such, as you erroneously imagine.
Also, the tribulation does not occur DURING Christ's presence, as you claim, but IMMIDEATELY BEFORE his coming and subsequent presence in kingdom power. That is, of course, not to exclude any possible future collapses of financial and political systems, resulting in wars and reports of wars, along with devastations and tremendous loss of life, but such possible developments have got NOTHING to do with the GREAT TRIBULATION as prophesied by Jesus.
To the contrary, he expressly forewarned us from being misled by these precursory events, purporting to be signs of his presence, directly contradicting YOUR idea of, QUOTE: "The great tribulation is to be immediately preceded by global war, food shortages, pandemics, and earthquakes in various places." UNQUOTE
If you look at Mat.24, you might notice that verses 7 and 8, 'nation against nation' etc, form a contextual pericope, CONTRASTING with the 'wars and rumours of wars' that do NOT CONSTITUTE THE END, and of which Jesus warned "the end is not yet," IMPLYING that the 'nation against nation' scenario is to happen at the final and 'real' end, AFTER the great tribulation when he COMES on the clouds of heaven in power and glory, exactly the OPPOSITE of what YOU are predicting.
This sequence of events is further confirmed by comparing the pericope of Mat.24:7,8 with it's equivalent in Luke 21:10,11, where along with 'nation against nation' we find the additional identifying spectacle of "FEARFUL SIGHTS and from HEAVEN great SIGNS," which clearly locate the fulfilment of this passage AFTER the coming of Christ on the clouds of heaven, where according to verse 25 (Lu 21) "there will be SIGNS in sun and moon and stars [ i.e. heaven]...while men become FAINT out of FEAR" etc.
Also, Luke 21 informs us that the nations are UNITEDLY trampling Jerusalem underfoot UNTIL Christ's coming to be present, immediately after the end of the great tribulation, and are therefore not fighting EACH OTHER DURING THAT TIME!
Hence, the 'nation against nation,' 'fearful sights,' great signs from heaven, great earthquakes, darkened sun, falling stars, etc. are all developments to take place AFTER Christ comes on the clouds of heaven to start the conclusion of the system of things, upon the glorious and victorious NWO, worshipped by ALL those dwelling on the earth.
That the 'nation against nation' development is to occur as the very LAST OF ALL the things prophesied, is also expressly spelled out by Jesus in Lu.21:12, where he says regarding it, that "BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS, i.e. before 'nation against nation,' the entire great tribulation, and again, its precursory 'wars and rumours of wars,' will have to happen first!
You are heavily deluded by the lie of the WT-anointed that Jesus' coming on the clouds happens 'immediately after' the "START" of the great tribulation, in direct contradiction of Jesus' word about his coming 'immediately after' the FINISH of the great tribulation against Christianity! Thus the trap is set for all those who believe this WT lie to accept the 'Christ' that will appear at the START of the great tribulation as the promised Messiah! Woe to those thus misled.
As to the 'holy place,' it is not as you suppose the body of Christ. The Roman armies did not infiltrate and take over the Christian congregation in the first century, nor is anything even remotely like that to take place in the final fulfilment.
However, the disgusting thing DID occupy and then devastate the traditional and ceremonial place and institution of worship of the God of the Bible, however much corrupted at that time, the same position that is now occupied by the realm of those confessing Christ, Christianity, or Christendom, if you like, composed of ALL the Churches including the WT, and from which the chosen ones were to flee in order to escape the predicted trampling and desolation.
Your position of identifying 'Jerusalem' and the 'holy place' exclusively with the WT sect, is just as myopic as the WT's identifying it with the 'Churches of Christendom,' from which it imagines itself to be separate, because the 'holy place' has reference to God's 'nominal people,' comprised of ALL 'Christian' religious organizations including the WT.
You don't realize how much your WT-centric exegesis is blinding you to the dangers of falling for another re-run of a fake and premature fulfilment of the parousia of Christ, only worse this time because of it being the final and terminal deception involving acceptance of the kingdom of the antichrist.
I am not having a go at you, just trying to stir up your clear thinking faculties, for you to snap out of the WT spell and its Pavlovian conditioning that has blinded you to the plain meaning of the Word of God, before it is too late.
proxygnosis,
Nobody else has the guts to say it, so I will. YOU have lambasted many articles and posts by the watchman. You go on and on and on. Suffice to say, YOU ARE NO LONGER WELCOME since you can NEVER keep your comments short, on topic and you just preach away and say little of nothing.
Just go away and harass other people.
Steven Delray
Where does Jesus say the tribulation will be upon all the nations?
Luke 21:35 - "...For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. "
Revelation 3:10 - "I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth."
Steven Delray,
...where is that scripture that says: 'Substance is better than guts,' - I can't seem to find it...
But seriously: If I spoke wrongly, bear witness concerning the wrong; otherwise, WHY do you quarrel with what is not addressed to you?
Watchman,
interesting scripture. What, though, is to "come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth?" The great tribulation, as you imagine? No indeed! Jesus is here referring to "THAT DAY," that "suddenly," as if out of nowhere, will "be instantly upon" them, if you pay attention to the context.
'That day' will occur immediately AFTER the great tribulation of those days, when "men become faint out of fear and expectation" as they see the supernatural sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven, the sign of his coming and subsequent presence, to usher in the battle of Armageddon.
That is precisely why Jesus is warning of his unexpected arrival creeping up on all those going along with the NWO beast, while they are eating and drinking, being totally absorbed in the pleasures and cares of this life, marrying and being given in marriage, all through the great tribulation that THEY cause to those professing Christ, until 'THAT DAY' when Jesus appears on the clouds in power and glory to destroy them all.
The way the WT, and by extension you, expect the great tribulation to unfold is totally ludicrous.
Lets say there are 2 billion Christians, and 4 billion Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and other religions of 'Babylon the great' that are to be under attack during the great tribulation. Who then, is going to administer the persecution upon 90+% of the world population? The couldn't-care-less Atheists perhaps?
Clearly, the great tribulation is a world wide persecution that is exclusively upon those holding fast to their confession of the Christ of the Bible, while the NWO antichrist is blessing the world with his magnificent 'kingdom of the Heavens.' That is why the coming of the real Christ is so sudden and unexpected by those who are spiritually asleep.
Like I mentioned previously, the majority of Germans during Hitler's reign didn't know about the 'great tribulation,' the Holocaust against the Jews, while it was happening, and those who knew, were too absorbed in their own affairs to care. Even the victims themselves, who could see the writing on the wall for years, were mostly too absorbed in their goals and daily living to take decisive action in time to escape the inevitable.
In like manner, the great tribulation will be the greatest persecution of Christians since the founding of the world, and never to be repeated again. Then "brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death."
Think about it, there are those who hand over to death, and those who are BEING handed over to death, during the great tribulation. It is obvious that those who do the handing over are the ones who are in POWER and are in the MAJORITY, so that the great tribulation is NOT upon EVERYBODY, as you imagine.
What Jesus describes here is basically that suddenly, out of the blue, the most intimate bonds of kinship and friendship between individuals are torn apart everywhere around the world. The whole fabric of social connections of 7 billion + people is ripped asunder, resulting in hatred and betrayal. How on earth could something like that come about? Might Jesus have known something that is so spectacular as to be unbelievable to us?
Only the arrival of the 'kingdom that is to replace the present, evil system of things' could have such a magically polarizing effect upon the world, separating mankind into those who view it as the long prayed for kingdom of God, and those who decry it as coming from Satan.
You can imagine how that will enrage the multicultural, politically correct masses of the glorious new age of enlightenment, who will then rise up against those holding fast to their faith as Christians, the 'haters of mankind,' to hand them over to the authorities of the NWO administration to be put to death.
A lot of well meaning people will be blind sided because of being indoctrinated, by spiritual sock puppets of demonic origin, with a different scenario of how the end will play out. Other people will be over awed by the glitz and glamour that entices their hearts to embrace the prosperous egalitarian utopia of their dreams come true, as they have been conditioned by years of watching and coveting the empty Hollywood schlock and pablum concocted by God's 'chosen' people.
Think about the hundreds of trillions of dollars that have been extracted from, and then lend back to the governments of the goy cattle - if all of a sudden that debt would be cancelled, in exchange for a pledge of allegiance to them and their god as the saviours of mankind. After all, is it not written in scripture that all the nations will stream to Jerusalem to be blessed by them? Woe to those being thus misled - whose names were expunged from the book of life from the founding of the world!
As to the text in Rev 3:10 that you quote, the "test which is to come upon the WHOLE inhabited earth," - that is precisely what it is: a TEST!
Like an exam, a test can be 'torture' to those not prepared or ready for it; but clearly, that is not equally the case with EVERYBODY.
The test happens during the great tribulation, as I described above, when the whole world will be put to the test as to whether they accept the NWO paradise, then being a present reality, or whether they are willing to risk everything, including their very life, to wait for the paradise they hope will come afterwards, if they are not possibly mistaken.
It all depends WHEN you want your persecution - and by WHOM. Those who reject the NWO will suffer persecution by those who swear it is the very kingdom of God - until Christ returns and proves them wrong, at which point He, in turn, will 'persecute' them during the ensuing battle of Armageddon, resulting in their untimely extermination.
Proxygnosis,
You are strictly equating the great tribulation to persecution of Christians. Persecution is a form of tribulation, as well as natural disasters, famines, disease epidemics, financial distress, unemployment and so on. Any type of calamitous event may be viewed as a form of tribulation.
However, “the great tribulation” is distinct from all these because it will be a time of divine judgment that will come upon the entire inhabited earth. This period of judgment will cover a period of 1335 days. (Daniel 12:12) It will start when the four angels release the four winds of God’s judgment upon the earth. –Rev 7:1.
This judgment period comes in two phases, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls. During the seven trumpets God will allow for the separation of people from one another. This is the time period when Jesus will separate the weeds from the wheat. Jesus will accomplish this task of separation within 1260 days from the onset of the great tribulation.
Once the weeds and the wheat are completely distinguishable, Christ gathers the wheat into his storehouse. The weeds are bundled up and thrown into the furnace as it were. (Mat 13:30) This is the period when Jesus pours out the seven bowls of God’s judgment upon the wicked undiluted. –Rev 14:10; 16:1-21.
A Stone Crying Out,
the great tribulation comes upon the entire inhabited earth in the sense that it will affect steadfast Christians in all countries simultaneously, as soon as the disgusting thing stands in a holy place.
If it would be equally upon the masses of NWO followers, there would be no need for Christ's disciples to use their discernment in order to flee from 'Jerusalem,' God's nominal people, Church or congregation, and at the same time reject the united new world religion that is usurping and standing in the place of Christianity, as 'God's messianic kingdom.'
Jesus clearly says that the great tribulation, as the time leading up to his parousia - his coming and subsequent presence - would be like the days of Noah, where people would be going about their daily activities without noticing the approaching flood of God's judgment.
The years leading up to the flood were not known for their disasters, revolutions and famines, although Noah and his family would have been given a hard time by the scoffers and opposers of his message and activity. But their respective fortunes were instantly reversed at the flooding downpour.
Similarly, Paul viewed the great tribulation as happening exclusively to Christians living immediately before the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, at which point the persecutors, namely all those who do not know God, all those who dwell on the earth, following the NWO with admiration, will themselves be repaid with tribulation on God's part. (2Thes.1:6-9)
As to the timing of the separation of wheat and weeds, we are told by Jesus that this would take place at the harvest, which he describes as a 'conclusion of a system of things.' (Mat.13:39)
In the Olivet discourse, in answer to the question by his disciples about the sign preceding the 'conclusion of the system of things,' he expressly locates this sign of his coming and subsequent presence [parousia], and hence the start of the associated 'conclusion of the system of things,' immediately AFTER the end of the great tribulation! (Mat.24:3,29,30)
We have to keep in mind though, that the separation of the wheat and weeds at Christ's revelation pertains to their growing side by side in the FIELD, which is the WORLD, not the body of Christ, his congregation, as some wrongly imagine!
Genuine wheat and phoney weeds, while living on the same planet before the harvest at Christ's coming, do not mix in the same fellowship - just as light and darkness are not compatible, the latter being avoided and exposed by the former - but have always been separated by the divergence in their respective message and conduct.
For instance, the WT preaches the christ that has already returned and appointed them over the whole world, who has been ruling this planet since 1914, and is about to take complete control over all governments and nations.
This message is evidently at odds with the divinely appointed sequence of events, where the next entity that takes over the world is in fact the satanic beast of Revelation 13. How could the wheat, the sons of light and truth, be in the same spiritual fellowship with the weeds of Satan?
To come back to the 'conclusion of the system of things' as starting after the great tribulation is over, at the return of Christ on the clouds of heaven - this is further corroborated by the way he uses this same term in Mat. 28:20, where he promised to be with us in spirit UNTIL the start of the 'conclusion of the system of things,' when he gathers together the chosen ones to be caught away to meet him in the air in person.
Although there will be wars and rumours of wars and even the great tribulation itself, they are merely precursory pangs of distress, but by no means do they constitute the start of the 'conclusion of the system of things' at his coming in power and glory.
We should not imagine the harvest as such to be a drawn out affair, happening over a few years. Christ knows those who are his; he has been living in them since the event of their individual coming of age, in a spiritual sense - adoption - if you will; he is merely gathering, glorifying, revealing and taking them along in the blinking of an eye at his coming in power and great glory.
The ensuing panic of all the tribes of the earth, who in desperation and at the realization that all is lost, will rise up against one another - nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom - as earthquakes, pestilences and food shortages will ravage mankind conceivably for some time during the Armageddon judgment - the dashing to pieces of the nations - along with many of the Revelation calamities, all this could perhaps take some time to transpire.
Naturally, those who have come out of the preceding great tribulation will be divinely protected during Armageddon, since it is God's war against the beast worshipping nations.
This linear progression of events given by Christ in the synoptics, is the frame work into which the highly symbolic, non-sequential, pictures of Revelation have to find their fulfilment, not the other way around.
I want to apologize for the many people I have offended. I like the attention I am getting and I like to converse with everyone over my posts. I also wish to apologize to the Watchman for my argumentative nature. I am jealous of his achievements and will try to control what I post.
I wish to thank everyone for their understanding.
The above comment, "proxygnosis #9786665," was posted by that serial cretinous imposter clown with the identity disorder.
Proxygnosis
It appears that you saying that Christ has a congregation that is as white as the driven snow. So your view is no different from the Watchtower’s view that Christ has already refined his congregation and appointed them as the faithful slave over all his belongings. The difference is that you don’t see them as part of main stream Christianity. Take a look at this verse:
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
This message for God’s people to get out of Babylon the Great is a final call that aligns with the 6th trumpet well into the great tribulation, at a point in time when the New World Order or the image of the beast is completely set up and the mark of the beast is being implemented.
So throughout the first 1260 days of the great tribulation, during the trumpet judgments, Jesus is speaking through the 144,000, knocking on hearts as it were, to gather his people out of Babylon the Great.
Once this work is completed at the end of the 1260 days, the 144,000 are put to death. But their message lives on in the heart of the great crowd that comes out of the great tribulation. It appears that a great number of them comes out of Babylon the Great immediately prior to the destruction of religious Babylon by its imperial counterpart, the ten horns and the wild beast. –Rev 17:16
Then Jesus administers the seven bowls judgment upon the wicked, which culminate at the opening of the 6th seal, which aligns with Armageddon. --Rev 16: 1-2
In all the great tribulation from the first trumpet through the seventh bowl occurs within a period of 1335 days. –Daniel 12: 1, 12
At this juncture Christ is selecting and possibly testing the 144,000 right before the four winds of the tribulation are unleashed. –Rev 7:1-4
A Stone Crying Out,
you have misunderstood, in part, what I said, and what implications can be drawn from it.
I assume you UNDERSTAND and AGREE with the correct scriptural understanding that the congregation is the body of Christ, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, having Christ living in them personally by the divinely revealed faith given to them through the grace of the Father.
To put it another way, ONLY those born of the Spirit, as Christ's brothers, of the order of firstborn sons of God, chosen before the founding of the world in Christ, are the congregation, the ecclesia or church, although they are not the ONLY people of God.
True, these holy ones were being subjected to sin and alienation from God just like the rest of mankind in that respect, but UNLIKE everybody else, at a certain point in their lives, usually around early adulthood, they died and were re-created anew in Christ Jesus.
This is more than just discovering the name of Jehovah, receiving forgiveness of sins upon faith in Christ's death - and believing in a new heaven AND new earth, along with a fuzzy feeling for God's love - all of which is true and good, but unfortunately, it is so often mistaken for the ENLIGHTENMENT that comes with being born again, which profoundly transcends those necessary essentials, imparting the immortal spiritual life within earthen vessels.
He that HAS the Son, HAS this life; he HAS passed over from death to life in a new and literal way, merely waiting for the release from his earthly body. Just as That One IS - the immortal, glorified Christ, at the right hand of God - SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. In turn, he that has seen Me, HAS seen the Father also. These are no idle words, but are Spirit and Truth to those to whom they apply. (see Eph2:6; Col2:9,10)
Consequently, members of Christ's body, if no one else, at their adoption - literally, their coming of age - as sons of God, do not have to wait for the great tribulation or thereabouts, in order to be refined and disciplined, or for them to abandon fellowship with religious people teaching lies, so as to qualify for something they already possess, namely the crown of immortal life.
True, they are admonished to hang on to their reward so as not to loose it, but in reality, that is what they have been living for all along, in union with Christ, their indwelling head and Chief Agent of Life.
They have been following the Lamb no matter where He goes SINCE their anointing, NO falsehood was found in their mouths SINCE their adoption as sons, they ARE without blemish SINCE their new birth: it is NOT something they become through refining and chastening AT the judgment seat of Christ!
The idea propagated by the WT-anointed, that they don't know any more than those who are of an earthly persuasion, precisely proves the point that they are not born of God's Spirit - otherwise they would know better than to spread lies about Christ's return in 1914 and their de-facto mediator-ship over all mankind, supposedly conferred on them since that time.
But as mentioned above, the congregation, the body of Christ, are not the ONLY people of God. That can be seen, for instance, by the way Jesus uses the phrase "if possible EVEN the chosen ones" could be misled: 'IF possible,' hence, NOT possible, and 'EVEN' they - hence, ALSO other people of God BESIDES them who MIGHT be misled!
Who are these other people of God? They are the institutional Church, made up of ALL the denominations of Christendom, including the WT-anointed and their followers, which are the equivalent of 'Jerusalem,' God's people in the first century, most of whom perished in the divine tribulation and retribution of 70 CE, with only a small remnant surviving, apart from, of course, and in distinction to, the CHOSEN ONES who had fled to the mountains, away from the 'established holy place' of YHWH at that time.
To re-iterate: although it is possible, and very likely, although NOT inevitable, that those not born of the Spirit presently are, and continue to be, mixed up in the institutional Christian religions of today, it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for ANYONE born of the Spirit of Truth, a member of Christ's body, to be unable to see through the lies of the 'nominal congregation,' and, hence, to KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in fellowship with them, AFTER being thus enlightened!
The restoration prophecies and other passages dealing with God's judgment on his people have to be viewed in light of the reality of there being TWO distinct people of God, both in history and at present, in order to avoid confusion and drawing wrong conclusions.
proxygnosis,
nicely put
Proxygnosis
Concerning the chosen ones you wrote:
“They have been following the Lamb no matter where He goes SINCE their anointing, NO falsehood was found in their mouths SINCE their adoption as sons, they ARE without blemish SINCE their new birth: it is NOT something they become through refining and chastening AT the judgment seat of Christ!”
If I am not mistaken, you are describing the 144,000 as the chosen ones essentially the same way the Watchtower describes them, but in a different context. However, the problem is this group of people are selected and sealed by Christ prior to the releasing of the four winds. (Rev 7:1) Therefore, they are presented as “first fruits” to God and to the Lamb as part of the end time harvest. –Rev 14:4; Mat 13:39
Prior to embarking upon his 3½-year ministry, Jesus selected 12 men to be his closest disciples. They were taught by Jesus and they spearheaded the work of preaching the good news of the kingdom as Christ instructed them to do. So in a way they were the first fruits of the larger crowd of believers that followed.
The end time parallel is that Jesus is going to select 12,000 people from each of the figurative 12 tribes of Israel prior to the start of the great tribulation. He will empower them just as he empowered the apostles and just as God empowered the prophets of old.
If these people were to appear right now, no one would listen to them. That’s because people are busy supporting their religious leaders and their respective brand of religion, as well as their political leaders.
However, once the four winds of the tribulation are released, many people are going to think twice, because destruction is going to be everywhere, as the four horsemen of the apocalypse are given authority over a fourth part of the earth “to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.” –Rev 6:8.
If you are mixing and placing these events elsewhere outside the context of the great tribulation, you are going to miss the point and come up will all kinds of ideas as to who the chosen ones are. We don’t know who they are in terms of the whole number of the Israel of God. (John 17:2) However, God knows because he can read hearts. For a certainty they are as numerous as the stars in the heavens and the grains of sands on the sea shore as God pointed out to Abraham. (Gen 15:9: 22:17) But that is a subject apart from the 144,000 who will appear on the scene of the world at the onset of the great tribulation.
During that time of global distress God fearing people will gravitate toward the message of the 144,000 as exemplified through the prophets and apostles, whereas the wicked will follow after the image of the beast. This polarization of people will be accomplished by the sounding of the seventh trumpet or 3½ years from the onset of the great tribulation. –Rev 10:7; 11:15
Thus we see that God has set in motion his plan consisting of many parts from the founding of the world “to gather all things together again in the Christ.” –Eph 1:10
A Stone Crying Out,
you seem to view the 144000 as a group of 'first fruits' separate from the 'first fruits' that God has chosen in Christ Jesus before the founding of the world, which have been anointed during the past 2000 years since the start of the first century Christian congregation.
So where in Scripture do we find support for TWO different sets of 'first fruits,' TWO separate bodies of Christ, as it were, in the end times? Or is He to abandon his anointed, chosen ones, just prior to the great tribulation for a NEW set of freshly chosen first fruits numbering 144000?
Seems a bit far fetched to me. Why not consider both sets of 'first fruits' as being the same group of Christ's anointed, Spirit begotten brothers, viewed from a different perspective and point in time, as they accomplish the witnessing during the reign of the beast.
I think we can push so-called 'end time parallels' a bit too far, or imagine them to exist where they were never intended to serve such a purpose. Both second Adventists, Russell, the early WT and even Watchman himself, see extensive, scripted re-runs of historical events, which occurred at Christ's journey in the flesh, as destined to repeat themselves in our time.
But such conjecture, lacking Scriptural warrant, is only to lead to the same disappointments and cover-ups that are strewn across the history of Adventist sects such as the WT.
The revealing of the Sons of God happens only after the end of the great tribulation when it will be too late to take note of their message. Hence Christ's earthly sheep discern even now the voice of their shepherd in the words of his anointed brothers, solely based on their faith in God's promise to save them.
To all others, the chosen ones will come across as false prophets and heretics, daring to preach against the spiritual paradise of the NWO that will be worshipped and followed with admiration by all those dwelling on the earth, as soon to be revealed.
One man's heaven is going to turn into another man's worst nightmare at the coming of the kingdom that is about to take complete control of the whole world, so that one man's truth will become another man's lie at the emerging global apostasy.
Proxygnosis
Unless you place the 144,000 within the context of the great tribulation, you are not going to understand the role that they are going to play during this critical “hour of test” that is coming upon the entire inhabited earth.
The four angels that are holding the four winds is a recent phenomenon. And for what reason are they holding the four winds? It is to allow for the sealing of the 144,000. Therefore we have to situate this group of people as being empowered by God’s holy spirit immediately prior to the start of the tribulation. You can’t put them as belonging to or coming from a different time period other than the concluding harvest.
Their work will consist of gathering the great crowd during the 1260 days of their prophesying as exemplified by the symbolic two witnesses.
Do not worry about the first century Christians and others in Christ up to now that are sleeping in death awaiting a resurrection at the sounding of the last trumpet. They have run the race and have finished their course.
The baton is being passed on to the 144,000. They will be the ones carrying it, along with the great crowd, into the final stretch of the race for life.
A Stone Crying Out,
I have no problem with placing the 144000 in the context of the great tribulation, as far their symbolic 'sealing' is concerned, although they are of the SAME group of Spirit anointed firstborn holy ones that were chosen in Christ before the founding of the world, and NOT of separate origin, entirely disconnected and apart from the NT context, as perhaps implied by your view.
The 144000 will rule as kings and priests along with Christ, no different than all anointed Christians of the past 2000 years will do; in fact, they are all part of, and included in, this symbolic number of 144000. There are no TWO classes of heavenly destiny intended anywhere in Scripture.
If the events of Rev.7 are to be taken as a snapshot of a chronological sequence, it is difficult to escape the inference that it pertains to the coming of Christ on the clouds of heaven immediately AFTER the end of the great tribulation, just before the start of the dashing of the nations to pieces at Armageddon.
Notice how 'one of the elders' uses the PAST tense: 'Where DID they come from?' That implies that at this point the great tribulation is finished, and the great crowd has just emerged out of it.
Similarly, verse 11 mentions that at the point of the sealing of the 144000, "ALL the angels were standing around the throne," just as in Math.25:31 - upon the ARRIVAL of Christ to separate the sheep and goats, "immediately after" the great tribulation is finished - he comes with "ALL the angels."
This would indicate that the 'sealing' of the 144000 is to occur NOT at the start of the great tribulation against those believing in Christ, but at the start of the destruction of Armageddon, the dashing to pieces of the nations by Christ together with his overcoming and resurrected, glorified brothers.
Nobody who is not already authentically born of the Spirit today should look to this future sealing as the start of some kind of 'anointing' experience to be enlightened with, to get him through the great tribulation.
Proxygnosis wrote:
“This would indicate that the 'sealing' of the 144000 is to occur NOT at the start of the great tribulation against those believing in Christ, but at the start of the destruction of Armageddon, the dashing to pieces of the nations by Christ together with his overcoming and resurrected, glorified brothers.”
If the sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the start of Armageddon, then you must be equating the release of the four winds with Armageddon instead of with the start of the great tribulation. In that case, were do you situate the casting down of the “incense vessel” and the blowing of the “seven trumpets” that followed?
The seven-trumpet judgment comes before the seven-bowl judgment that leads to Armageddon. Therefore your theology does not conform to the proper ordering of events in Revelation.
It’s like a baseball player who upon becoming disoriented after hitting the ball runs to the third base instead of the first base.
Better yet you might as well stay at the home plate and declare that you have hit a home run. In that case, someone is going to have to carry you out to make room for the next person up to bat.
If you feel that I am being harsh, please explain to us the meaning of the four winds, the casting down of the incense vessel, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls. Please explain also the seven seals and how they relate to the trumpets and the bowls judgments.
While you are it, please tell us who are the two witnesses and why they preach a message in sackcloth for 1260 days. Then flip to Daniel 12:12 and explain the meaning of the 1335 days. There is much more, but that should be enough to keep you busy for a while.
Please take your time. Don’t spin around as though you are still bedazzled on the home plate.
A Stone Crying Out,
I am well aware of the difficulty inherent in taking these Scriptures at face value, chronologically speaking, and the seeming duplication of events at the start of Armageddon, which would have already taken place at the start of the great tribulation, just as you have rightly pointed out.
That same ambiguity is also apparent if we compare the events described in Math.24:15,16, with those of Luke 17:26-31. In Mathew, Jesus urges his disciples to flee immediately BEFORE the start of the great tribulation, as soon as they discern the disgusting thing standing in a holy place.
Whereas in Luke, he tells them to flee "on that day," when the Son of man is "to be revealed," which is to happen immediately AFTER the great tribulation is over! Just when are you supposed to flee?
There could be an interpolation, or simply Jesus skipping the immediate context and re-connecting his statement to an earlier train of thought, such as is frequently done in Revelation.
But back to Rev.8, where the angel stands before God, at the altar in heaven, offering up incense with the prayers of ALL the holy ones before God. Notice, the incense does not rise up from the earth but from the angel who stands before God. This seems to show that at that point ALL the holy ones are together in the same location and position, not as earlier, while some where still in the flesh, at a time others were already resting from their labours.
All this though is a side issue - albeit a very interesting one - to the point I have been focusing on in all my previous comments, namely to show that the great tribulation is only against Christianity by 'all those who dwell on the earth,' then globally united in Devil worship, to be halted and reversed by the coming of Christ in power and glory, as he turns the tables against them, so to speak.
Also, there is a preponderance of scriptural evidence to support that there is only one set of anointed holy ones from the start of Christianity to the return of Christ, symbolically numbering 144000, who are without blemish and not blinded by the lies of organized religions claiming to represent Jesus and his congregation.
But more important by far than getting the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days, as well as the bowls and trumpets, figured out - an exercise of merely academic value AT PRESENT - will it be to guard against the fatal mistake of misinterpreting the next global upheaval or collapse of whatever proportion and nature, as the great tribulation, to be followed by the kingdom of God!
Proxygnosis
You did not explain the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven bowls, the two witnesses prophesying in sackcloth for 1260 days and the 1335 days. That is because you are stuck on 70 C.E. and none of the events pertaining to the great tribulation has anything to do with the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem when it was destroyed by the Romans.
Jesus tied the two periods together to illustrate the end that is coming upon the whole world. So, if you don’t put the great tribulation in its proper context as shown in Daniel and Revelation, you are not going to understand the proper sequence of events as they are going to unfold during the time of the end or the concluding harvest.
At this point you need “eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see.” So it’s good that you are reading up information on the Watchman Post. There are plenty of eyesalves here if you care to apply some in your eyes. I have found many articles on this site quite helpful to me.
Carefully read the above article “Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Holy Place” on this blog entry. Hope you will find it helpful! Otherwise, you can choose to linger around the events of 70 C.E. and miss the boat as it were.
By the way, are you a good reader? If not, that could be the problem. Don’t worry I’m not much of a good reader myself. When I read something I usually force myself to read it. By so doing I have acquired a bit of patience and endurance. So read on. Don’t just skim through the article.
A Stone Crying Out,
don't you think that Mathew 24 and Luke 21, about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, are among "th[o]se things [that] went on befalling them [first century Christians] as examples, and they were written for a warning TO US upon whom THE ENDS OF THE SYSTEMS OF THINGS HAVE ARRIVED?" (1Cor.10:11)
Watchman's articles, just as most of the WT material itself, is certainly thought provoking, as you can read for yourself in my comments here, all of which were directly provoked by the Scriptural inaccuracies purveyed by the myopic, WT-centric theology and apologetics in behalf of 'God's spirit directed organization.'
So, yes, I agree with you about the benefits of reading here, and elsewhere, as even light becomes more discernable if contrasted by darkness, and especially so to those who want to see and walk by it.
In fact, this is the basis for judgment, namely, how we react to the light, once exposed to it, as to whether we really prefer it to the darkness we were all born in.
I sympathize with you on the effort it takes to read, think through and analyze scriptural and spiritual content; it certainly is not easy, but oh so rewarding in the end, just as it is written: "Happy is the man...[whose] delight is in the law of Jehovah...[which] he reads in an undertone day and night." (Ps.1:1,2)
So while certainly trying to peer into the things coming, we have to admit that up to now there is not even a beast that is worshiped by ALL those who dwell on the earth, let alone its image. There is yet no king of fierce countenance, no little horn devouring ALL THE EARTH either.
It is therefore premature to invoke prophetic timelines at the present stage of development, as such activity can only lead to a repeat of the great disappointment at best, or worse, to being mislead into mistaking the NWO as the promised kingdom of God.
Proxy,
People are not going to be misled into thinking that the New World Order is the promised kingdom of God. That is utter nonsense. The devil will not be able to set up the New World Order or “the image of the beast” until the sounding of the 6th trumpet. However, during the first four trumpets he will be speaking like “the Lamb,” impersonating Christ as he works behind the scene through religious and political leaders. This is how he is going to gain a large number of followers. At that time people are going to be misled en masse, but the New World Order is still to come.
After he has gained a large number of followers, he will start to speak “like the dragon” that he is. This will occur at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. Likely, at this time the call will go out for God’s people to “come out” of Babylon the Great, as a last ditch effort, right before the scarlet colored wild beast turns upon the iniquitous whore of Babylon, devouring her completely.
Afterward, at the sounding of the 6th trumpet, the devil will establish the New World Order and implement the mark of the beast. By then they will no longer be any religious diversity. They will be one world government under one religious banner. This will be the image of the beast that everyone will be required to worship under pain of death.
At the time people take on the mark of the beast they will be fully aware that they are selling their soul to the devil for the sake of surviving. So the Bible does not support the idea that people are going to be misled into thinking that the New World Order is God’s kingdom.
Understandably, the great tribulation will be an “hour of test” for everyone alive then, as people’s loyalty for God’s incoming kingdom is put to the test. This time of testing will come to an end by the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The seven bowls that follow are punitive or retaliatory judgments against the wicked, those who had earlier taken the mark of the beast and shed innocent blood.
This is not a matter of “invoking prophetic timeliness” as you put it. It is a matter of understanding prophetic and end time events, particularly in the order presented in the books of Daniel and Revelation.
While the Bible says that the devil “is misleading the entire inhabited earth,” it does not say that he is misleading people into thinking that the New World Order, which has not yet formed, is God’s kingdom. Even now people in the U.S. are not happy about talks concerning the formation of a global government whose laws would supersede the Constitution.
So it would take a major catastrophic event to finally bring the nation-state system to its knees, allowing for the formation of this New World Order. All the wars fought in the 20th century could not bring it about. Even a war involving a substantial use of weapons of mass destruction will not be able to bring it about. That is because there is a divine delay imposed upon the release of the “four winds” of the tribulation. Therefore, until this delay is lifted, the great tribulation cannot start. –Rev 7:3; 10:6
The release of the “four winds” will effectively end the pushing between the king of the north and the king of the south, and will allow for the ascendancy of the imperialistic king of the north, due to its control of the world’s monetary system. Even now there is no indication that the U.S. has the will power to free itself from the cabal in control of the U.S. dollar and global economy.
A Stone Crying Out,
I realize what you are saying about a sizeable section of mainly older people still being ambivalent, or even outright hostile, to the idea of World Government at present. But look how people have acquiesced in Europe to the centralized dictatorship of Brussels, or how hundreds of millions of people fell into line behind the Bolsheviks at the beginning of last century in the Marxist revolutions.
Same story in Nazi Germany, the Cultural Revolution in China, and on, and on. Today the world is being prepared for the final incarnation of the 'kingdom of God on earth.' Just tune in to what the young ones are parroting off these days: all races, cultures, genders, religions and philosophies are one, or should be united one day soon; 'mother earth,' self, and any other god should be universally worshipped; what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right.
Revelation reckons that ALL THE EARTH will follow the beast WITH ADMIRATION! What could possibly be so admirable and desirable about the NWO? Sounds like all mankind are convinced they finally have entered paradise, or heaven, by the sounds of it!
Furthermore, at this point, God is going to let an operation of error go to them that they may get to believe the lie that this fantastic New World Society is actually the long awaited kingdom of God on earth itself.
That is why Jesus taught his disciples to pray DAILY about the coming 'hour of test:' "Lead us not into TEMPTATION, but deliver us from the wicked one." The word TEMPTATION in the original Greek is the same as the word TEST in 'the hour of TEST that is to come upon the whole inhabited earth!' (Mat.6:13; Rev.3:10)
Therefore it will require divinely granted powers of discernment to withstand the temptation, the test, of falling for the satanic deception that would, if possible, even mislead the chosen ones into believing that the kingdom of God had really arrived; what chance does the rest of the world stand?
Genuine chosen ones will be kept from the 'hour of test' that is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, just as promised by Jesus. But those who's hearts are full of admiration for the new global paradise, and are tempted to join in the cosmic celebration, will have eternally failed the test, from the founding of the world.
Already today, most people are attracted to the glitz and glamour of make believe and selfish desire, the cheap illusions of self importance and the flattery of fame - the Judeo-American dream foisted upon the 'less fortunate' parts of the world - which serves not only as a distraction from the real issues at present, but to prepare people to accept the phony paradise of Satan's NWO.
The 'lawless one's presence will be according to the operation of Satan with EVERY powerful work and LYING signs and PORTENTS and with EVERY unrighteous DECEPTION' - portending to be WHAT? Deceiving people to draw WHAT conclusion? That Satan's kingdom is REALLY SATAN'S kingdom? Or does "angel of light" perhaps ring a bell, his appearing as the promised 'Messiah' of God's kingdom?
Just like Satan has most people deceived into thinking that he doesn't actually exist, so too he has convinced the WT-anointed and their followers to believe that, because 'man cannot direct his steps,' the next successful global administration must of necessity be from God, his long promised kingdom of righteousness, as preached by the WT. This is the mysterious LAWLESSNESS referred to by Paul, and that is why Satan's 'Christ' is called the 'man of lawlessness.' That's why it is so insidious.
Mankind is not actually facing a world made unstable through terrorism, crime, drugs and pollution, as people have been conditioned to fear, but are about to be sucked into a stable, secure and prosperous new world, administered with the rigour and 'righteousness' of the Pharisees, where all are 'equal,' and even 'thought crimes' will be punished, putting everybody under constant surveillance by the watchful, all seeing eye of the Kahal, the wise Elders of the Talmudic Synagogue, our 'divine' New World Administrators. Here is where it means the faith and endurance of the holy ones!
Those who think that it can't possibly happen are already duped by Satan's 'mysterious' propaganda. Don't think that God is going to nip it in the bud, because he will let it all come out in the open, in order to reveal what really lurks in the hearts of men. This thing will not be done in a corner!
In the end we will have fully fledged, global Devil worship, the very thing the WT-anointed are dismissing as contrary to God's purpose; makes one wonder what sort of spirit is directing their organization. Happy are those escaping their lying deceptions.
Sorry, buddy, your theology is totally off course. Dream on!